Have you ever tried to teach someone to whistle? Highly frustrating for both instructor and student. This week we examine what makes a skill difficult to teach.

This podcast looks into how skills are taught and what factors create barriers to this process. We try to classify different types of skills, as well as different types of teachers and learners. We also discuss what we have personally found difficult to master, and as a bonus Tom teaches us how to make a noise like a dolphin.

A few things we mentioned in this podcast:

• PACEY survey on the hardest things to teach kids
• Tom learns the piano in six easy steps

For more information on Aleph Insights visit our website https://alephinsights.com or to get in touch about our podcast email [email protected]

Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast produced by me, Fraser McGruer for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Tom Spence, Nick Hare and Chris Wragg of Aleph Insights and this week we're discussing learning

to whistle. Chris, are you a good whistler? I consider myself to be a very fine whistler, yes, but that's not the reason why I thought this would be an interesting topic or why it occurred to me. The reason it occurred to me is because I was on, as we all are now, on video calls all day with Nick in fact and suddenly his middle-aged milkman walked by whistling or so I thought. A chirpy whistle. You know, from what seemed to be a sort of large resonant kind of physical frame. Anyway, turns out it was Nick's daughter who is how old Nick? Nine, nine years old. Right, yeah, so, you know, had a very prodigious whistle about her and it got me thinking because, you know, both my daughters, I've kind of tried to teach to whistle a few times but not in earnest but it struck me that whistling is one of those things that is very, very difficult to teach. You know, there are lots of things that we try and teach our children like riding bikes and, you know, reading and writing and so on but whistling is really, really difficult to teach. It's not something you can readily demonstrate straightforwardly and so it got me thinking about, you know, what things, not necessarily what things are difficult to learn but that is related

but what things are difficult to teach and why. Okay, good. So, I mean, just immediate question, I'm not going to ask you to whistle Chris but Nick, did you teach your daughter to whistle? No, she, no one taught me to whistle. I think all whistlers are autodidacts. I don't think, as Chris says, you can teach someone to whistle but she's extremely, what's the word I'm looking for, she perseveres. No, she's really, you know, conscientious and if she wants to do something, ever since she was a baby, like she was always trying to walk, if there's something she thinks she ought to be able to do, she'll just try and try and try until she gets it and she did that with whistling. So, yeah, very impressive. I mean, it's odd actually. It's funny and I don't know how significant this is but it occurred to me that, you know, the things that are hard to teach and I came up with a list of five things that I sort of see as one of those things that when you can do it, it's really hard to explain what you're doing which was swimming, riding a bike, whistling, swinging on a swing and blowing your nose, right? They're things that I remember, really vividly remember where I was when I could first do all of those things. I can tell you exactly what the circumstances were. Swimming, I'm particularly sceptical but even though Chris mentioned teaching people to swim, I don't believe that. I mean, for years, swimming teachers just said, you know, hold on to the side of the pool, waggle your legs around, fine, I could do that. Now, just do it without holding on to the side of the pool and hey, presto, I would sink and they just couldn't believe it. They were like, no, you must be doing something wrong and I said, yeah, but what is it? And no one would explain what it was and then one day, I was in the Mediterranean and there were some really big waves and I was sort of jumping up and down in the waves and suddenly, I realised I could tread water. I was just doing something with my legs where I was staying afloat and I thought, well, actually, that's it now. If I can stay afloat in the water, I can do everything else. So, yeah, I am interested in this topic too. Tom, where were you when you first learned how

to ride a bike? Very good question, Nick and I think you know the answer to that. I was not. I do not know how to ride a bike so I cannot answer that question. Well, instead of mocking

him which is the obvious response, what about actually trying to help you learn to ride a

bike during this podcast? Well, interestingly, I was taught to ride a bike by my father who couldn't ride a bike. So, there you go and I think there's a big question in here which is what constitutes teaching because you sort of, you know, you taught most, I would say, most physical skills. You know, teaching sort of or transferring knowledge is generally a case of saying, you know, there you go, you've taught somebody that fact. Really what you've done is you've, you know, transferred some knowledge to them. But with physical skills, you can't just take that in a nice little bite-sized unit and hand it over to somebody to put in their brain. You're really talking about having to create the conditions and, you know, sort of provide suitable feedback on what it is they're doing in order to enable them to self-learn it.

But also, can we not get back to Tom? Talk us through, was there a situation where you were kind of set up to ride a bike and just and just gave up or just talk us through it. Yes, it's interesting. Yeah, well, when I was a child,

so maybe four or five days ago, my father tried to teach me to ride a bike. He's a very keen cyclist. I like her. It must be a tremendous disappointment. Yes, thank you. Thank you for reminding me of that, Fraser. So he tried to teach you to ride a bike, but in an attempt at a cost saving measure, he bought a bike that was too big for me. He only got one wheel. He got a bike that was big enough for me to grow into. Right. Which meant that I couldn't actually reach the bottom of the pedals, which I obviously don't know how to ride a bike, but I imagine it's quite an impediment to riding a bike. And so I repeatedly fell off, repeatedly hurt myself. And after a couple of weeks of trying, I just refused to continue with the process of ritual humiliation and pain.

And then he just had a worthless bike. So really, it was a cost cutting measure that didn't didn't pay off in the long run.

Well, it's interesting. I mean, because that obviously, I think I feel like your dad probably had a very high opinion of your learning ability and just thought, well, I'm not going to bother with this nonsense of buying a baby bike and then putting stabilisers on. My Tom can deal with a grown up bike. He's got no problem. And I can sort of understand that, the kind of in at the deep end approach, yeah, which is what you do when you're teaching someone to swim.

My legs just weren't long enough for that.

I know. I know. I accept that. But actually, what you might not be aware of is that is that cyclists, cycling people like to have their saddles really high up. And in fact, they you know, you're not supposed really to be able to touch the ground, I think, when you're on a bike. But the but the, you know, I obviously I learned to ride a bike using the normal boring method of having a little bike with stabiliser. And then one day, you know, I think it was my granny took off the stabilisers. And I just I just didn't need them anymore. You flip. Let's cut through this for a moment. Because I think there's different things going on here from the examples we talked about. And I mean, is that okay if I say I think there's three things going on. First, it's how difficult or not is the skill that is trying to be passed on? That's the first thing. Second, are there any issues with the teacher? Three, are there any issues with the student? And so I'm sure it will relieve you to know, Tom, that I think the issues that you had with the bike are not with you. I think they were with your teacher. Thank you. The fact that one

in eight adults can't ride a bike agrees with you. I'm not alone. Oh, wow. Yeah, there we go.

So this is what we need to get down to, right? I mean, because really what we want to answer, I think, is if we remove the, you know, they're not really outliers, but if we remove the chaff of having a crap teacher or a crap student, okay, it's what is the stuff that's difficult? And I think actually probably, I don't know if whistling comes into that or not, because that has to do

with physical attributes, for example. Yeah, I think you've cut right to the chase, which is, you know, it's not about the student's receptiveness to it, and it's not about the skill of the teacher. We're talking about what things are objectively difficult to teach. When you ask that question, you have to say, well, how do you measure or benchmark difficulty, right? And there are, you know, because we kind of think about these tasks like in a binary sense, right? You can either whistle or you can't, you can either ride a bike or you can't. But most skills that we learn, you start off being rubbish at it, and you go move along some kind of continuum until you're extremely proficient at it, or not somewhere in between, right? But with a lot of these skills, there comes a point where you sort of think, oh, I can do that thing. So, you know, but the question is, how do you measure what the level of proficiency is that is the same as the level of proficiency in some other skills? So, you know, like take, I don't know, two subjects like maths and modern languages, you know, is trigonometry the same? You know, being able to do trigonometry, is that the same as knowing the, you know, cases in German or something? It's very difficult to say that. So, I think we've got like a fundamental problem, which is when you say, is it difficult to do that thing? It's like, well, how good do you have to be in it? And how do you tell whether being that good in it is the same level of proficiency as being, you know,

good at something else? I think in some ways, whistling does have a proficiency element. You know, you can be able to whistle or you can be able to actually whistle a tune, but there is also a binary element. Can you make a whistling noise or not? And I think part of the reason it's so difficult to teach is that that binary element relies on very fine margins. You know, someone's mouth has to be in a very specific orientation. If their lips are pursed slightly too wide or slightly too dry, they can't make that noise. And I think that's what makes whistling particularly difficult to teach, is that there is very little room for error. Riding a bike, for example, you know, you can push your leg down. It doesn't matter if you push it down a little bit faster or a little bit slower, or if you, you know, do it in a slightly weird way. The ultimate outcome is

still the same. You've pushed a pedal, whereas- The variance in successful conditions is low. I don't know if anyone's ever tried to play the fife, right? My daughter is learning to play the fife. Oh my God, when I thought, well, okay, I'll, you know, work out how to do it so I can then,

it's like a flute, isn't it? It's like a flute, but the fife. The fife, yeah. So that military, that military flute thing. Okay. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like in orange marshmallows. But I nearly

threw it in the bin. It was so, like, it's like- This fife is broken. This fife is broken, exactly. It is, go out and get a fife and try and play it. It is infuriating. Well, my daughter,

the one who whistles, also plays the trumpet, and that's something I can't do. I don't know how she does it. No, I think what we've got here is a really good theory, or at least I would say a strong part of the theory, which is about the way that you get feedback while learning, because with a lot of tasks, even think of something like speaking, right? You can do it badly, but you've still done something. But with riding a bike, you've got a long way to go before you're even riding a bike, right? You've got to do everything right, more or less. And all you know is that you can't do it. You don't know which thing you changed because you're in this whole space of it just not working. And it's the same with whistling. You just don't know which aspect of what you're doing to correct because you're getting no feedback at all. All you know is it doesn't work. And that was certainly my experience with swimming. Everyone else was doing it. And I did apparently the same thing as them. And it just didn't work. And I didn't know what to affect. But I also have another, I want to put forward another suggestion, which reminds me a bit of, you remember we did a podcast about smells a while back. And one of the things we were puzzled by is why we really lack a kind of common language of smells that would enable us to describe them to each other. And I think there's this issue about sort of being processed at a very low level of your sort of cognitive activity, a very fundamental part of your brain. That means that we can't really describe what's happening there. But also, if they involve fundamental or hidden motor movements, whistling is an example where something's happening in your mouth, but you can't really show people what you're doing. So really fundamental ones. It's not like playing the piano where you're actually moving your fingers in a way that you know how to move them, you've just got to put them together. These are a bit like curling your tongue or something. You don't know if you can't do it, or if you're just not doing it right. It's like a thing that you do. And I can't describe to you what the mental signals are. So I'd say it's a combination of those. It's the lack of feedback. So it's the fact that there's no progression towards just being able to do it. It's just you can't until you can. And that it involves fairly fundamental motor movements. That's my theory. I like that. I mean, I think you're onto something there, Nick. Especially, one of the things I like about the piano, let's say, versus the trumpet is kind of what I think is what you're talking about there. With the trumpet, you can't necessarily see what's going on. Someone says, no, you've got to purse your lips like that, etc. Whereas the piano, you just plonk. And that's not to say it's easier or more difficult than another instrument, but it's a very immediate kind of feedback. You can see that you're doing it right. Lesson one, plonk. Lesson two, Rachmaninoff second piano concerto. There we go. How to play the piano.

I mean, it's well established that the immediacy of feedback from a task affects your learning. And one source of that feedback is your teacher. And swimming is a good example of something that's difficult to teach because neither the teacher nor the learner can really see what is occurring, the movement. If it's something like cricket or tennis or whatever it might be, it's all above water and you can see yourself hit the ball or not. But in swimming, there's no holistic view of what's happening.

Just to say two things. I don't know if we want to explore what other things might be like that. That's the first thing. The second, actually, there's a flip side of this, which is, if you are that person who suddenly learns, who suddenly gets the whistling bit, I think there might be a joy in that, that you don't necessarily get in the other stuff where you have the immediate feedback thing. There's a joy of the dopamine, you suddenly get it, that I think only happens in that kind of thing. Peter, sorry, Tom, you were going to say something?

I was just going to suggest that on this topic, we go back to the revelation from earlier in the podcast that Nick remembers the first time he learned to blow his nose. Can you tell us

about the joy you felt at that experience? Yes. So for years, I was about 11 or 12 and for years, blowing my nose. Just before you go on, because one of my three kids does not know how to blow his nose. So I'm looking forward to hearing this. Well, I'm going to tell you my technique. So for years, blowing my nose was holding a tissue over my nose and breathing out through my nose. And needless to say, that didn't work. And the reason it doesn't work is because usually one nostril is bunged up. And of course, all the air comes out of the other nostril. And then someone, while I was in the choir, I was at a choir rehearsal at the Temple Church in central London. And someone said, you know, to blow your nose, you should hold one of your nostrils, you know, closed with your finger and blow out through each nostril. And then, hey, presto, what I can only assume was about 11 years worth of snot came out of my nose into the tissue. And I felt this relief that for years I had never experienced. And you were in the perfect place. There must have been like this choral sound. But lo and behold, here I am in the same position trying to teach my son to blow his nose and he bloody well, you know, still can't do it. It's so annoying watching him blow. And he refuses to learn from me because he thinks, you know, I'm talking nonsense. So yeah, that's the blowing the nose story. Again, I think it's the same thing that it because it's something that's happening kind of inside your body. You know, it's one of those things like you probably just what you want to say is, you know, you've got to urgle until your gump is grooted and then you jank and then, hey, presto, that's how you blow your nose. But we don't have the words to describe what is going on there. Yeah. Okay, so where do we want to go with this? We want to explore any others that are like this?

Well, I think there's a few other factors at work that are intrinsic to the task that make it, you know, easy to both teach and therefore, you know, and therefore learn. One is to do with its intrinsic utility, right? I mean, Nick talked about, you know, the perseverance of his daughter in teaching herself to whistle. But by and large, you know, most people will persevere at something that's got an obvious benefit. You know, they'll invest the resource of time in it if it's got an obvious benefit. So like walking and talking, you know, children are extremely persistent at, but whistling maybe doesn't quite have the same, you know, the same level of obvious utility to your life. And I think there's a good analogue there with learning foreign languages. And, you know, the fact that the Anglophone world is notoriously bad at learning languages. You know, in the UK, you have to learn one language compulsory within our education system at the age of 11. You know, in Cyprus and Malta, they have to learn two languages and they start at five. And you look at, you know, how many people in the UK can profess to be able to speak a second language. It's in the sort of 30, 34% level. The EU average is, you know, 65%. And in kind of Scandinavian countries, where nobody speaks their language, you know, you're up in the kind of 90%. So I think there's something about, you know, the perceived value of the activity that drives, you know, creates the motivation to learn. I also think there's an element which is the transferability of the skill, you know, is it like something? So if you can, you know, play the guitar, learning to play the banjo may be more straightforward for you. You know, for a start, you can read music, you know, is it like something else that you can say, well, just do, you know, just do the thing like you do whatever, or is it very abstract and unique, that makes it, you know, difficult to teach. And the last thing I sort of think, or factor that I think plays a role is the consistency of the task. So, you know, every time you try it, is it different in some way? So there are some tasks, and at the moment, I'm teaching myself to surf, which is a good example of this very, very badly teaching myself to surf. And the, you know, every time you go and surf, the waves are different. And so you're learning in different conditions. And what you really want is that kind of classic situation with, you know, if you're learning tennis, where you've got some machine spitting, you know, three dozen balls at you in exactly the same way, so that you just, you know, you have the mast practice, you groove the skill. And that's how, you know, that's how you can sort of teach it. So if it's consistent, but if it's very changeable, and based on conditions outside your control, I think that makes it a more difficult thing to be taught.

We're getting close to wanting to finish. So yeah, I've got a question I want to ask. But before we do, who wants to, let's round this off or cover, is there anything else we want to cover? Have you heard tell of a thing by the name of the cerebellum? Yes. Well, it's part of your brain. It's the, apparently, in the hindbrain of all vertebrates is one of these cerebellum chaps. And it's critical for motor control. And they don't, apparently, know exactly why. Tom, do you know more about cerebellums than I do? I might hand over to you. But I just, a couple of things that I read about cerebellums, which I thought were interesting, and I've been highly speculative in the inferences that I've drawn from it. But one of the things apparently cerebellums do is they're essentially a kind of neural network with inputs and outputs. But they don't have any, all of the processing is feed forward. So they don't have any ability to sort of generate sustained neural activity. And I wonder if that's related to the fact that you can't, for example, learn a new piece of music on the piano just by thinking about it. You have to actually do it. So structure-wise, we've got this kind of, it's got a similar structure to a sort of deep learning network. And I wonder, you know, that so it's, the way it works is not very, it's very global. You know, it's not sort of, it's not sort of, there are not specialised bits. And it's also modular, apparently. So it's kind of consists of similar structures all the way throughout, which suggests basically that I think learning this kind of thing is a very general type of task. And that, you know, learning, so learning to swim, for example, is a similar process to learning, you know, to play the trumpet, which I thought was interesting, could all be total bollocks, because I don't, I'm not a neuroscientist. Tom, are you a cerebellum guy?

I have a limited knowledge of the cerebellum from my first year at university, but I wouldn't like

to pronounce any expertise. I mean, I, it's, it's,

Now Chris, you're a, you're a, you're a, you're an exercise physiologist. You're used to teach

this kind of thing. Yeah, well, it's linked to the sort of control of rhythmic motion. So the fact when, when you walk, for example, and swimming, you know, is quite metronomic in its, in its nature, but that control of rhythmic automated motion. So the fact that we can, you know, walk in this kind of pendulum, which is basically controlled falling, right? Is, is, you know, a large part of that process is, is controlled by the cerebellum. So it's more, it's more at the sort of, rather than fine motor skills, it's more at the, the kind of gross end of the spectrum of, and, and things that are repetitive and yeah, rhythmic.

Okay. So I've got two questions. One of which is for Tom. So in this, in the narrative arc of this podcast, this episode, what we've got here, we've got a great bit of tension and suspense. Okay. Cause I think the question that I am certainly, you know, wants to know the answer to is, is Tom, do you intend, do you have an intention to, to learn, to ride the bike? Okay. And, and, and whilst before Tom asks that, I also don't want Tom to feel left out here, right? So my other question is, is there something that we can all think of a skill that we do not have, and that perhaps we should, and you know, that's, and also on the other side of that, have you got a skill that other people tend not to have or something that you're particularly good at? Okay. Those, if we think that's interesting, those are the questions I

want to ask. Tom, what are your thoughts? So to your first question? Yeah. No, I currently have no plans to learn to ride a bike. Returning to some of Chris's points, for me, the utility is fairly minimal. I am quite good at walking and I am quite good at using public transport. So I don't really see the point at the moment. To your second question, I think. Well,

the second question that can, that can wait for a moment. Are we happy to leave it? I don't, Tom, I don't want to badger you about this. So we'll probably leave it. It's quite sort of

Freudian Oedipal, isn't it? The, the, you know, the, the bicycle struggle. It's like King Lear's bicycle or something, you know? Yeah. Battle of, locked in a battle of

wills with this. I'm a huge fan of professional cycling. I, I watched the Tour de France every year. Um, and honestly not knowing how to ride a bike makes it even more impressive. I don't even know how they stay upright, let alone go up mountains. So I don't want to ruin that magic for

myself. Well, I think, I mean, apparently how bikes work has only very recently. And I mean, in the last couple of decades been understood that, that the theory of how bikes worked for the prevailing part of the 20th century is apparently was wrong. It's now been empirically, I don't know. It's something I read somewhere. Probably not true. I, I want to find out more, but I feel that that's a bit of a rabbit. It's a podcast in its own right. Yeah. Bicycles. Yeah. So let, let, you know, let's sort of bring it out on the other side then. And yeah, we'll start with you, Tom. What is it that you are a champion at? What is it? What is, what's the skill or

skills you have that you think are quite rare? Well, uh, I'm choosing this one because it's somewhat connected to whistling. Um, I, I can do quite an accurate dolphin impression, um, which I have not yet met anyone else that can do. This is going to be some quality radio

coming up. Do you know, we've just got to go there. So we know he can do dolphin impressions. Let's move on to other people. So do we want to hear it or not? And I can try to explain it and try

to teach it as an experiment. Okay. Yeah. Brilliant. So go for it. You've got to first wet your lips as though you were going to whistle and then close your lips, uh, across and then you breathe in through the corner of your mouth. Like so. This is good. That's absolutely astounding. And it sounds a little bit like a dolphin. That is really, really, in some of your cases, it sounds a little bit like a kind of a,

you know, Tom's dolphin only, please. Not the farty sounds you guys would do. Okay. Well, let's have one more time. The floor is yours, Tom. This is already the best podcast episode we've ever done. That more than makes up for Tom, for not being able to ride the bike. I mean, congratulations. You're one of life's winners, it seems. So yeah. I mean, that does have massive utility,

so I can see why he persevered with that. When the dolphins take over,

you'll all be begging for my help then. Yeah. Well, Nick can teach you to swim. So,

you know, you'll be fine. Let's move on to Nick. Well, since we're on the subject of making noises, I can do an impression of a train, of a steam train. Okay. Do you want to hear it? No. Okay, well, we'll move on then. No, yeah, I do. I do. And I can also make it sound like it's going into a tunnel, right? So this is a steam train going into a tunnel. I had no idea I was surrounded by such talented people. Yeah, I think that's actually more like

an intercity train rather than a steam train, necessarily. It sounds more like the clickety clack along the line rather than necessarily the... People are going to think that Fraser's just dubbed in some actual sound effects. Yeah, absolutely. It's just, yeah, yeah.

So yeah, that's the only equivalent thing that I can do, really. Anything that you can't do? Yeah, I mean, the one I would still put in that bracket, I've got a driving license and I can technically drive, but the difference between me driving and me, e.g. playing the piano is, you know, I hate driving and I've never got to the stage where it's thoroughly unconscious, you know, that good drivers can just sit, get in the car and off they go and they're not even, you know, they can think about something else while they're doing it. For me, it's, I'm riveted to the road, utterly stressed out the whole time and it just, I haven't, it hasn't really worked its way, you know, into my full on motor control. It's not something I just feel comfortable doing and I think that partly probably because I learnt when I was old enough to realise how dangerous it was and it's stressed me out ever since. Elon Musk will help you out soon, Nick, don't worry about it. Yeah, exactly, yeah. I mean, that's a redundant skill if ever was one. Chris, that's two tough acts you've got to follow. Yeah, well, obviously I can make the

noise of an elephant, Fraser to insert sound effects, but no, I think my skill is probably making Yorkshire pudding, so my family are from, my parents are from Yorkshire originally and my mum taught me to make Yorkshire pudding, the batter and, you know, and Yorkshire people famously have it as an appetiser before their main meal as opposed to with their, you know, with their roast dinner. But yeah, but what, there's no sort of measurement involved in the process, so basically the sort of instruction is you, you know, you put the requisite number of eggs in and then you add as much flour as the eggs will take, you know, and then every egg is different, so every egg is different, exactly, and then you apply, you know, you put milk in until it reaches the right consistency, so it's a, and my, so, you know, my mum tried to teach this once to my mother-in-law who, who was like, well, how much flour do I put in, and she was like, well, you know, enough, the right amount, the right amount, and so, you know, I feel like I've got this skill now and it's great because, you know, my mother died recently and it's sort of like a kind of legacy thing that, that's, that survives, so yeah, that's my skill, Yorkshire pudding. And what a great skill, by the way, because it's not easy, and anything you don't have? Anything I don't have? Any skill? Well, I mentioned, I mentioned surfing, like, surfing is, and I am somebody who has done a lot of physical, learned a lot of physical skills and loves learning physical skills, acquiring them, I love that, you know, that sense of like, oh, I can do it, and surfing is really eluding me at the moment, it is, it is,

I'm finding it very difficult. Yeah, yeah, well, you know, actually, similarly for me, because I'm reasonably sporty and, and two sports I've never managed to get the hang of, one of them is surfing, similar to yourself, and the other one, actually, when we first met, Nick, going way back, I used to make great play with the fact that I used to go off to boxing training, right? I can't bloody box, I'm useless at it, and it's, it's another one of those sports I've never quite got it. So, I can't. Well, interesting. You're a rough-dy, buff-dy, tough-dy, Ernest Hemingway type,

an intellectual and a boxer. ESPN ran a, ran a survey about what the toughest sports were, and they asked, you know, a panel of sort of expert people to sort of grade them on different things, and boxing came out as being the, the most difficult sport to become successful. I can

imagine, I can imagine. Things I can do, I'm pretty good at languages, I can pick them up quite easily, I think. I'm an amazing table football player. I am, I'm astonishingly good at it. I'm just, well, putting that out there, I think we're gonna have to find, we're gonna have an Aleph away day with a, with a football table in it. Yeah. And then, just because you other guys did it, I, I tried to think if there's any sounds that I know, let's see, like jumbo jet taking off. Go on then, hit us with it. That's, that's really bad. That was whistling, that's what we've been talking about. Hold on, hold on, wait, I can't take the pressure, I can't take the pressure. Hold on, here we go again. All right, let's try again, let's try again. Hold on. Okay, I like the way Tom's just completely lost it down there. Okay, I should have gone first, not last, right, so let's try again, let's try again. No, I can't, I can't. That is staggeringly bad. I can do this, I can do it. I don't think we've got time to wait for this. We don't, we need to finish, we need to finish. Oh my god. No, brilliant ending though, brilliant ending. All right, we'll stop there. So we've established what Fraser definitely can't do, yeah. I think, I think it also, it puts my claims of amazing table football into doubt. Yeah, yeah. Okay, all right, we'll stop there. If you've got any thoughts or suggestions for topics, please email us at podcast at alephinsights.com. We'd love to hear from you. If you've enjoyed the podcast, what should listeners do, Nick? They should swipe right on that like button. Okay, so don't forget to like us and follow us on your chosen streaming services. Thank you as always for listening. I'm Fraser McGruer. We've been here with Tom Spence, Nick Hare and Chris Wragg of Aleph Insights. Until next time, goodbye.