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Name It, Frame it, Claim It With Paul Omodt
Episode 35 • 30th January 2024 • Communicate Like You Give A Damn • Kim Clark
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Paul Omodt, Founder and Principal of Omodt & Associates Critical Communications, is back on the Communicate Like You Give A Damn podcast to talk about all things crisis communications. Together, host, Kim Clark and Paul Omodt discuss everything from crafting an effective apology to organizations taking ownership and accountability. Paul not only highlights the key considerations organizations need to have for an effective apology but also his own process for crisis management that is timely, consistent and effective. Paul even discusses other aspects he deems as critical for a well-crafted apology such as choosing the right communication channels, seeking expert counsel, and monitoring public responses. Ultimately, a sincere apology, combined with concrete actions for positive change, contributes to rebuilding trust and credibility, impacting the overall reputation and positioning of the organization in the social landscape, as outlined in the depth model.

About The Guest:

Paul Omodt is the Founder and Principal of Omodt & Associates Critical Communications, a full-service communication firm based in Minneapolis known for effective communication when communication is critical to your success. In his thirty-year career, Paul has worked on some of the Midwest's biggest crisis situations as well as built the reputations of some of the region's biggest brands. Paul is an active member of the communication community and regularly speaks on communication topics at conferences throughout the country. 

Find Paul Here:

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About Kim:

Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.

She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.

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Transcripts

Kim Clark:

Hi, everybody, welcome back to communicate like

Kim Clark:

you give a damn. And we have a part two, with Paul. Now Paul

Kim Clark:

was the one who basically laid it out for us the behind the

Kim Clark:

scenes of what PR took place in the area where George Floyd was

Kim Clark:

murdered. And so if you haven't listened to that part one with

Kim Clark:

Paul, he basically teaches a class on protest communications,

Kim Clark:

you know, demonstrations, languaging position positioning,

Kim Clark:

supporting, you know, government, you know,

Kim Clark:

institutions and family members through crisis situations, like

Kim Clark:

the murder of George Floyd. I mean, it was an incredible

Kim Clark:

story. And thank you, thank you for that. And when I realized

Kim Clark:

after we had that conversation, Paul was, there's more, there's

Kim Clark:

more to this here. So let's, let's, let's take a broader lens

Kim Clark:

here, and tap into your experience around crisis

Kim Clark:

communications as a whole. And so if you don't, if you wouldn't

Kim Clark:

mind before we get into it, just in case for those who haven't

Kim Clark:

heard your first podcast, reintroduce reintroducing

Kim Clark:

yourself, and then we'll get into our crash course of crisis

Kim Clark:

communications.

Paul Omodt:

Yeah, just a quick intro. So I'm born and raised in

Paul Omodt:

Minneapolis, and I've been doing crisis communications, I, as I

Paul Omodt:

tell people my entire life, I grew up with a dad who was a

Paul Omodt:

county sheriff. And so you know, police scanner ran 24/7 on our

Paul Omodt:

house growing up. And so you learn how to kind of think

Paul Omodt:

through crisis, you see the calls, you hear the calls that

Paul Omodt:

come in, you hear it gets dispatched out, and then you see

Paul Omodt:

it in the media, and you start to understand all the components

Paul Omodt:

of it. So I've been doing it or listening to it my entire life,

Paul Omodt:

which is, you know, nearly 60 years now. I've been doing it

Paul Omodt:

professionally for 35. And it's brought you on a journey. And

Paul Omodt:

what you learn over time is that crisis communications to do it

Paul Omodt:

effectively, you've got to keep it simple, so you can remember

Paul Omodt:

and executed upon it in the moment. And it's many moments

Paul Omodt:

that happen. And that's why I've kind of developed my system

Paul Omodt:

after kind of learning from some of the people that kind of

Paul Omodt:

started the crisis communication genre of PR. Some of the the old

Paul Omodt:

school people like Jim move viscosity, who's a friend of

Paul Omodt:

mine, Jim was kind of the first one to start writing about this

Paul Omodt:

in the 40s. And the 50s, you know, and he starts, he starts

Paul Omodt:

thinking this through, and then others pick it up. And modern

Paul Omodt:

thinkers, like you, Fred Garcia, or Richard Lubbock, who just

Paul Omodt:

recently passed, they took it to the next level. And so when you

Paul Omodt:

talk to them, you start thinking this through, what I found is

Paul Omodt:

that you're usually dealing with crisis and your ability to

Paul Omodt:

translate to other people on your team, you might be called

Paul Omodt:

into a crisis situation and lead a team really quickly. And

Paul Omodt:

you've got to talk to them about what the communications

Paul Omodt:

components are really fast and easy. And Kim, that's why I came

Paul Omodt:

up with my system, which conveniently all rhymes. It's

Paul Omodt:

called claim it, name it and frame it. And if you go through

Paul Omodt:

claim it, name it and frame it, you can quickly understand the

Paul Omodt:

components of crisis communications. And so if you

Paul Omodt:

want me I can watch into this and just kind of talk about how

Paul Omodt:

this relates. But I think that everything is kind of a case

Paul Omodt:

study in applying it in a reasonable manner. And so I

Paul Omodt:

think it'd

Kim Clark:

be interesting to hear, because you're familiar

Kim Clark:

with the kind of the early history, if you will, of crisis

Kim Clark:

communication. So what was it? How did it initially start? And

Kim Clark:

and what have you seen as the evolution up into and including

Kim Clark:

post 2020?

Paul Omodt:

Yeah, that's a great question. Because if you think

Paul Omodt:

about, there's always been throughout the course of

Paul Omodt:

humankind crisis communication, right. But as a formal study,

Paul Omodt:

you know, PR didn't really exist until the 1920s. If you think

Paul Omodt:

about it, that's what they teach you back in college. That was

Paul Omodt:

the first type of actual public relations where people were

Paul Omodt:

hired to do the job, as opposed to people doing it on their own.

Paul Omodt:

In the 40s, and 50s, people started to say, oh, we should be

Paul Omodt:

able to manage our image better through the media. And the media

Paul Omodt:

was bigger and bolder that right, you had big media that

Paul Omodt:

happened at set times. So after World War Two people saw the

Paul Omodt:

kind of the components of how, you know, certain countries used

Paul Omodt:

it used propaganda, right, and the need to kind of counter

Paul Omodt:

propaganda, and businesses started in society started to

Paul Omodt:

realize that same thing. And so the study of it really started

Paul Omodt:

in the 40s and 50s, after the war, where people in the PR

Paul Omodt:

industry started to write papers on it and teach on it. You know,

Paul Omodt:

some of the first crisis PR classes started in the 1950s.

Paul Omodt:

And you take that on through and you watch things evolve, right?

Paul Omodt:

You see this, the 50s going to the 60s in the Vietnam War and

Paul Omodt:

how that was handled or mishandled. Right, you see the

Paul Omodt:

Pentagon Papers, things like that. You see the Nixon

Paul Omodt:

resignation, and we get to create the classic crisis term

Paul Omodt:

of Watergate. Every crisis management now gets back to be

Paul Omodt:

named gate at the end for that reason, which again, gets to one

Paul Omodt:

of my points, which is the naming convention. Why was it

Paul Omodt:

called Watergate? And that Nixon was a crook. You know, like how

Paul Omodt:

do you name In these things, and how do they get name these

Paul Omodt:

things? How do you proactively use it. And you look at kind of

Paul Omodt:

how the 80s and 90s kind of came in the 2000s and 2020, you know,

Paul Omodt:

the pandemic, I think changed everything, everybody's

Paul Omodt:

perspective. Society was kind of humming along. And we see social

Paul Omodt:

media come in, in the early 2000s, right. And then we

Paul Omodt:

started seeing how social media gets manipulated. In the in the,

Paul Omodt:

in the mid 2010s, you start seeing how fake news became a

Paul Omodt:

thing. And people like, we're very, we're very comfortable

Paul Omodt:

being untruthful. And it's very strange that that became the

Paul Omodt:

defining thing that no one pushed back. And that was one of

Paul Omodt:

my big criticisms of my colleagues in the PR societies

Paul Omodt:

was, hey, we've got to push back against fake news. That's not

Paul Omodt:

really a thing. That's just called lying. Right? There is

Paul Omodt:

objective truth out there. And now we're living in a post truth

Paul Omodt:

world. And we're paying the price for that in a lot of ways.

Paul Omodt:

And so when I counsel my clients, I'm always talking

Paul Omodt:

about, okay, the pandemic changed everything. society

Paul Omodt:

changed, and people are, you know, the whole work from home

Paul Omodt:

thing, changed everything. So you get about a third of your

Paul Omodt:

workforce. Now that is working from home on a regular

Paul Omodt:

consistent basis. They're not being shaped by the workplace as

Paul Omodt:

much as they were, they're looking for different ways to be

Paul Omodt:

connected. And they're looking for different sources of of

Paul Omodt:

their truth. And again, I always tell my clients lean into the

Paul Omodt:

change, as opposed to being ruled by the change. So what

Paul Omodt:

that's telling us is that people are looking for something

Paul Omodt:

smaller, and something that they can touch and relate to, they're

Paul Omodt:

looking to be more connected to things that they feel real to.

Paul Omodt:

So you look at Congress in Washington, why is the level of

Paul Omodt:

distrust so high? Well, I can't touch in that, I might know my

Paul Omodt:

local congressperson. But I can't control that. Where I can

Paul Omodt:

have impact is at the local local level. And so most of my

Paul Omodt:

clients are going to what I call local, local, which means make

Paul Omodt:

it small, make your connection small, and build your base out,

Paul Omodt:

as opposed to go into the big outside, come to the inside and

Paul Omodt:

build it out. Let people know what you believe in, what your

Paul Omodt:

values are, what your mission set is, what you stand for, and

Paul Omodt:

they'll come to your business, they will come back to your

Paul Omodt:

business or your organization. And we're seeing people want to

Paul Omodt:

be attached there because they don't trust a post truth world.

Paul Omodt:

The big things are scary and untruthful things that I can

Paul Omodt:

interact with, I can influence or be part of. And that's kind

Paul Omodt:

of the difference we're living in. And I'm seeing this even

Paul Omodt:

with municipal clients that I work with, in Minnesota, that

Paul Omodt:

it's kind of the annual season where local cities have figured

Paul Omodt:

out that we don't want to be the government. And I'm saying that

Paul Omodt:

in air quotes, right? Washington is the government. My local

Paul Omodt:

government, local municipal government should be something

Paul Omodt:

that's comfortable with me. So in Minnesota, the big thing is

Paul Omodt:

every local community now where we have snowfall, they name

Paul Omodt:

their plows. Why is every plow name blizzard or scraper or

Paul Omodt:

something like that? Because residents can shape what their

Paul Omodt:

plows are called. And then when they see the plow coming down

Paul Omodt:

their street, they feel like there's government working for

Paul Omodt:

me. And we see more things like that, again, more community

Paul Omodt:

oriented places, different levels of types of policing,

Paul Omodt:

which is a reaction to this. And we're seeing more and more of

Paul Omodt:

that. It's a very interesting thing. I'm working with a client

Paul Omodt:

right now, which is a municipal government, which is trying to

Paul Omodt:

make their police station look more open and accommodating and

Paul Omodt:

welcoming to everybody in the community. I mean, that's just

Paul Omodt:

that's a concept that did not exist five years ago, I

Paul Omodt:

guarantee Right, right.

Kim Clark:

And so, yeah, so just just to really level set on what

Kim Clark:

the definition of crisis communications is. Now, do we

Kim Clark:

wait until something horrible happens threatening externally?

Kim Clark:

Like how do you prepare organizations, your leaders,

Kim Clark:

like, where do you start? When you're trying to get them, you

Kim Clark:

know, to, perhaps proactively, like, before something happens?

Kim Clark:

Or do you mostly get brought in when something happens? And then

Kim Clark:

you're kind of repairing the damage? Like, what is that

Kim Clark:

process that you have with clients?

Paul Omodt:

So can I tell everybody, there's two types of

Paul Omodt:

people in the world? There's people who is experienced

Paul Omodt:

crisis, right, and they prepare for it. And there's people who

Paul Omodt:

are about to experience crisis and are not prepared for it,

Paul Omodt:

right? Which category do you want to be in? There you go. So

Paul Omodt:

no matter whether it's an existing client that I work

Paul Omodt:

with, and or it's one that comes to me, or I'm trying to say,

Paul Omodt:

hey, you need this, I'm telling everybody that your life will

Paul Omodt:

change unexpectedly. That's the definition of a crisis, right?

Paul Omodt:

It's an unexpected on planful change that you should be ahead

Paul Omodt:

of. And so what we typically work with clients on is, hey,

Paul Omodt:

let's do this. First, let's define who you are. Let's tell

Paul Omodt:

your story. And let's tell you the world what your mission

Paul Omodt:

vision and values are. Because if you know who you are, you can

Paul Omodt:

act the way you want in good times or bad. And we see too

Paul Omodt:

often that people either change who they are during crisis, some

Paul Omodt:

They become super litigious or they hide behind lawyers. And

Paul Omodt:

they do things like that. And their audiences go, Wait a

Paul Omodt:

minute, you said you were this. And now look what you're doing,

Paul Omodt:

as opposed to moving through a crisis. And this is who we are,

Paul Omodt:

this is what we believe. And this is how we'll make it, we'll

Paul Omodt:

make it right. And so typically, with clients like with, again,

Paul Omodt:

by municipal clients, we will do it twice a year, we will go by a

Paul Omodt:

two by two grid, which means that we look at things most

Paul Omodt:

likely to occur and having the highest impact. And we put them

Paul Omodt:

on a grid and we sit in a room we say, Okay, what do we think

Paul Omodt:

is changing? What is the new thing that is coming down the

Paul Omodt:

road that we need to pay attention to? And these things

Paul Omodt:

can be things like, Oh, hey, we're seeing more severe

Paul Omodt:

weather, we're seeing our rivers flood more, we're seeing more

Paul Omodt:

wind storms here in Minnesota than we've ever seen, we should

Paul Omodt:

be prepared for that when the power lines go down. It wasn't a

Paul Omodt:

concern 20 years ago, but now we're seeing on a more frequent

Paul Omodt:

basis. We're seeing flash flooding, like you haven't seen

Paul Omodt:

before. But we're also seeing societal changes, right

Paul Omodt:

expectations, changing the way people want to be policed, you

Paul Omodt:

know, again, that local local concept, it's okay now to have a

Paul Omodt:

mental health professional go on a police call, I mean, unheard

Paul Omodt:

of five years ago, but we got to be ready for that. And then

Paul Omodt:

think through, okay, what happens when it goes this way,

Paul Omodt:

this way, or that way, when that resource is out there in the

Paul Omodt:

field with an officer, I have some municipal clients that send

Paul Omodt:

out a Community Services van to any type of kind of unrest in

Paul Omodt:

the community. And it puts out food banks, housing vouchers,

Paul Omodt:

you know, the whole thing comes to the scene, again, unheard of

Paul Omodt:

years ago. But that is actually crisis response. It's managed

Paul Omodt:

crisis response, where we're being more rigid, again, serving

Paul Omodt:

people at the local, local level. And again, those

Paul Omodt:

communities are doing better than the ones that are still

Paul Omodt:

back 20 years ago, or even five years ago, when their approach

Paul Omodt:

to things like community service, policing, things like

Paul Omodt:

that. And that is actually crisis response. And how

Kim Clark:

do you prevent it? Yeah, absolutely. And how do you

Kim Clark:

help clients who may be used used to more of the style, the

Kim Clark:

strategic approach of the deny, deflect, deter, or attack, or

Kim Clark:

discredit, you know, whatever all the Ds are that that some,

Kim Clark:

that people are looking at our profession as professional

Kim Clark:

communicators, as spin, as, as this deny, deflect, and it's

Kim Clark:

gaslighting in some ways, you know, oftentimes, so walk us

Kim Clark:

through how you help leaders kind of shift around this

Kim Clark:

evolution that's happening, which I'm seeing as well, like,

Kim Clark:

there is such a desire, especially from employees and

Kim Clark:

customers of transparency, authenticity, alignment to

Kim Clark:

mission vision values.

Paul Omodt:

And so typically, when I'm counseling a client,

Paul Omodt:

again, I have a steady bank of clients that I work with on an

Paul Omodt:

ongoing basis, most of my clients come to me on a Friday,

Paul Omodt:

Kim, it's because they know something's brewing and they

Paul Omodt:

don't want to ruin their weekend. So they call the crisis

Paul Omodt:

guy in, right. And I quickly counsel them on, would you

Paul Omodt:

rather be this or that, because this is the choice you have at

Paul Omodt:

this point. Of course, your lawyers may tell you advise you

Paul Omodt:

to X, Y, and Z, which looks like dodge and deflect, right, and

Paul Omodt:

deny and all those types of things. And those last a long

Paul Omodt:

time, and they invest a lot of your time and energy as a leader

Paul Omodt:

kind of combating them, right. Or you can do what we do. And

Paul Omodt:

that's expensive. And it's time consuming, and it's emotionally

Paul Omodt:

kind of draining. For we can deal with it the way that we

Paul Omodt:

your audiences expect you to, which is to be open, honest,

Paul Omodt:

transparent, and live your mission, vision and values. And

Paul Omodt:

this is what it can look like. And using strategic

Paul Omodt:

communications. Most people don't think you can use

Paul Omodt:

communications in a strategic manner to advance your goals.

Paul Omodt:

But in fact, you can. And you know, the rule of thumb is never

Paul Omodt:

let a good crisis go to waste. So just think about that

Paul Omodt:

concept, right? Never let a good crisis go to waste. The crisis

Paul Omodt:

can define you in a better way. Companies that go through

Paul Omodt:

something and handle it right come out stronger rather than

Paul Omodt:

weaker. Right? Organizations that deflect an eye on whatever,

Paul Omodt:

get weaker and weaker over time, and they lose more and more over

Paul Omodt:

time. I mean, just I mean, again, not to pick on any one

Paul Omodt:

organization, but look at the Catholic Church handling of

Paul Omodt:

abuse cases. I mean, the fact deny, say it didn't happen,

Paul Omodt:

right. I don't think that served them. Well, when you look at the

Paul Omodt:

number of archdiocese that have gone bankrupt. I don't think

Paul Omodt:

you've seen people leave a church as fast as that. Right.

Paul Omodt:

societally people are saying, No, you know, let's let's deal

Paul Omodt:

with this. And again, it becomes this huge organization that you

Paul Omodt:

can't touch, right? It's way far away in Rome, as opposed to

Paul Omodt:

something local. And people are voting, you know, with their

Paul Omodt:

feet, not into a Catholic church for that reason. Again, not to

Paul Omodt:

pick on any organization, but that's just a well known case of

Paul Omodt:

what denial it's you. Yeah, rather than saying, Hey, we had

Paul Omodt:

some wolves among the sheep here. And we took care of the

Paul Omodt:

wolves, and lived our faith and lived our values. And this is

Paul Omodt:

why we are good organization. And you see the exact opposite

Paul Omodt:

happened. And again, those are things those are decisions made

Paul Omodt:

by people in charge that were the wrong decisions.

Kim Clark:

And the more and more that I talked to Chief

Kim Clark:

communication officers, as well as crisis comms professionals

Kim Clark:

like yourselves, I find that the counsel that leadership gets, is

Kim Clark:

on point, like you're recommending, and yet what we

Kim Clark:

end up seeing from Bud Light from target from other

Kim Clark:

organizations that have gotten it really, really wrong. And

Kim Clark:

missed opportunities. To your point, like Target had this

Kim Clark:

incredible opportunity in the summer of 2023, when they

Kim Clark:

experienced a day in the life of LGBTQ plus people, and instead

Kim Clark:

of double down, you know, doubling down and saying, Wow,

Kim Clark:

we are experiencing what it's like, in the day in the life of

Kim Clark:

an LGBTQ plus person. Instead, they backed off and led us as a

Kim Clark:

community out on our own, they just abandoned us. So there was

Kim Clark:

an opportunity there a huge opportunity to really withstand,

Kim Clark:

you know, instead of moving beyond standing with the

Kim Clark:

statements of standing with, but actually with standing, and

Kim Clark:

using it as an educational moment. So the more and more I

Kim Clark:

hear from community, especially chief communication officers who

Kim Clark:

have this direct line of strategic advisement, you know,

Kim Clark:

including the PR agencies that are supporting these chiefs,

Kim Clark:

Chief comm officers and also supporting these recommendations

Kim Clark:

to do as you talked about, you know, being more authentic and

Kim Clark:

transparent, because the truth is always going to come out. And

Kim Clark:

we have to Nate, we have to own our own narrative. Otherwise,

Kim Clark:

we're just in an in an age where other people are just going to,

Kim Clark:

you know, it's just it's so expensive, like to your point

Kim Clark:

like, but I'm not seeing I'm seeing a little bit more of the

Kim Clark:

And is this your experience where it's leaders who are in a

Kim Clark:

fear based mentality, not necessarily the chief comms

Kim Clark:

officer, or the PR agency of record that's making the

Kim Clark:

recommendations. Although Paul, I have to say this real quick.

Kim Clark:

When Roe v. Wade was overturned, there was a slew of articles

Kim Clark:

talking about agencies, making recommendations to organizations

Kim Clark:

to say no comment. Now, as a DI communications person, I felt

Kim Clark:

that was the wrong recommendation, like PR agencies

Kim Clark:

need to have di communication professionals to better prepare

Kim Clark:

their clients, if they if you work with an agency of record

Kim Clark:

that doesn't have di communications, as as an

Kim Clark:

expertise as part of the services, they're not there

Kim Clark:

under serving you. So you're going to be stuck in that kind

Kim Clark:

of situation. But going back to the chief comms officers, the PR

Kim Clark:

agencies that support them that are making recommendations for

Kim Clark:

this transparency, and this is what it looks like, and you will

Kim Clark:

come out stronger by owning this. Like what what how do we

Kim Clark:

as in house, communicators, and working with our PR agencies, or

Kim Clark:

if we're internal working with our chief comms officers? Do you

Kim Clark:

have any tips or advice of how we can kind of shift the mindset

Kim Clark:

of our leaders to get out of, you know, to trust us that this

Kim Clark:

is the right way to go in the name it? Your What was your

Kim Clark:

what's your process?

Paul Omodt:

Click claim it Yeah, name it, Freeman. But Kim, let

Paul Omodt:

me just pull apart a few things that that you said, right. So

Paul Omodt:

think about a few things. One of the things I kind of account for

Paul Omodt:

with my clients nowadays is what I call post truth trolls. Right?

Paul Omodt:

The post truth trolls they exist because they can help

Paul Omodt:

politicians and or, you know, counter organizations raise a

Paul Omodt:

lot of money and profile by going and protesting target,

Paul Omodt:

because they're selling a shirt, right? Because it has a rainbow

Paul Omodt:

flag on it. And if you haven't accounted for that you haven't

Paul Omodt:

done your crisis communications right to begin with, right? You

Paul Omodt:

take the time to merchandise a shirt, which means that you've

Paul Omodt:

probably sourced it a year ahead of time, right? You've had the

Paul Omodt:

factory make it you had it shipped to get to the stores,

Paul Omodt:

you do the pricing you put in you know where it's gonna be in

Paul Omodt:

the store, all that kind of stuff. That's lots of decisions

Paul Omodt:

being made. And if you haven't thought through something like

Paul Omodt:

that, that you can guess is going to be somewhat

Paul Omodt:

controversial or not, and how to handle it, you failed before

Paul Omodt:

you've even started to put that shirt on the

Kim Clark:

show, being out of touch of what's going on in

Kim Clark:

culture. And

Paul Omodt:

so if you haven't thought through what the post

Paul Omodt:

truth trolls are going to come out and do. You've done crisis

Paul Omodt:

communications wrong. And the other thing is and what I do

Paul Omodt:

with clients is I quantify exactly what the post truth

Paul Omodt:

trolls are doing compared to other campaigns they've done

Paul Omodt:

before how it's impacted other businesses because you You can

Paul Omodt:

measure their impact, right? Whether it's dollars and cents,

Paul Omodt:

or it's mindshare of public conversation. And sometimes it's

Paul Omodt:

almost funny how we overcorrect for that, oh, my gosh, they came

Paul Omodt:

to my store and they protested. Well, five people showed up at a

Paul Omodt:

store that draws, you know, 10,000 visitors a day? Is that

Paul Omodt:

really what you want to worry about? Or do you want to be Oh,

Paul Omodt:

the five protesters or the 200 people we welcome into our

Paul Omodt:

stores, new customers, we felt because they felt comfortable

Paul Omodt:

coming to our store, right. And that's the power of the consumer

Paul Omodt:

right of, of the audience. And we haven't done those metrics.

Paul Omodt:

And so when I've worked with clients in the retail space,

Paul Omodt:

specifically, we look at post truth trolls, we look at foot

Paul Omodt:

traffic, we looked at dollar value sales, and we compare it

Paul Omodt:

to other situations, say, this is what you're going to face. So

Paul Omodt:

get ready for it, and embrace it and lean into it. Right? Lean

Paul Omodt:

into what's happening so that you can live your values. And I

Paul Omodt:

see too many companies when that when it seems to get too hot for

Paul Omodt:

them, they haven't measured the heat correctly, we need to be

Paul Omodt:

able to measure the heat correctly before it gets

Paul Omodt:

applied. When it's being applied in one this one is after. It's

Paul Omodt:

so funny, when you watch some of what I call the post truth

Paul Omodt:

trolls. There's some of them now that did the bud light thing,

Paul Omodt:

who now are serving Bud Light again, in their restaurants in

Paul Omodt:

their bars, right? Because it's a good popular selling beer.

Paul Omodt:

They made their little hissy fit whatever they did, right? And

Paul Omodt:

Bud Light was stood it, they're still in business. Now they lost

Paul Omodt:

money in the interim, but they might make it back up. But a lot

Paul Omodt:

of the big cheerleaders for that have relented. And it becomes an

Paul Omodt:

amazing kind of arc to it. And so when you can point that out

Paul Omodt:

to clients, as you're counseling them that, hey, you're going to

Paul Omodt:

live through this, don't let this good crisis, go to waste.

Paul Omodt:

lean into it. Think about your employees that might be in this

Paul Omodt:

community or that community, right? Think about your

Paul Omodt:

customers, right, and how they feel. And again, we just we make

Paul Omodt:

the matters worse, when we don't really live our values. So if

Paul Omodt:

Target wasn't ready to live those values, they should have

Paul Omodt:

never put that shirt on, it's on their shelves, this should have

Paul Omodt:

never pretended. And again, targets based here in the Twin

Paul Omodt:

Cities, it's their headquarters is five minutes from my house.

Paul Omodt:

Right? I think they I think they really mishandled that. They

Paul Omodt:

could have handled it much better.

Kim Clark:

Yeah, and I appreciate the 20 years of

Kim Clark:

support for the community. But they did not withstand when it

Kim Clark:

was tested. Right. And they were not truly close to they didn't

Kim Clark:

have the right people at the table to advise them of what's

Kim Clark:

going on in culture. And what does this mean with with 650,

Kim Clark:

anti LGBTQ plus bells going on across the country. Like you

Kim Clark:

have to take, you know, just businesses as communicators, we

Kim Clark:

have the pulse, especially for internal and employee

Kim Clark:

communicators, we have the pulse. And we have to keep the

Kim Clark:

pulse of what's going on with employees, and then our

Kim Clark:

marketing, you know, buddies and PR buddies are keeping a pulse

Kim Clark:

of what's going on in you know, externally in the market. And so

Kim Clark:

we have to be at the table and we have to be listened to, you

Kim Clark:

know, in order to get

Paul Omodt:

a strategy of being listened to. But we've got to

Paul Omodt:

bring the metrics, right? And the examples, right, as

Paul Omodt:

communicators, we got to say, this is what we see, this is how

Paul Omodt:

we see it, this is where this can go. And this is where we

Paul Omodt:

need to move it. And I think I think sometimes we've got to

Paul Omodt:

give communicators the ability to have those conversations and

Paul Omodt:

teach them how to have those conversations, which I see you

Paul Omodt:

doing, because I've been in many conferences where you speak,

Paul Omodt:

right? And people leave those rooms feeling embolden, right.

Paul Omodt:

But we got to keep that going, moving it forward. Otherwise,

Paul Omodt:

we're just going to keep progressing, right, that's what

Paul Omodt:

the trolls want is to regress back to their level of

Paul Omodt:

unhappiness with the world, whatever it may be. Again, you

Paul Omodt:

don't have to go shop at Target. If you don't like the shirt,

Paul Omodt:

they saw the shirt, it's just like change the channel if you

Paul Omodt:

don't want to watch the show. Just don't buy the shirt. You

Paul Omodt:

know, I was at Target last, you know, yesterday. And you know, I

Paul Omodt:

didn't buy every item in the store. I bought the ones that I

Paul Omodt:

wanted. And I chose other ones I you know, I walked by the ones I

Paul Omodt:

didn't want. It's not a hard process. So it's, they have

Paul Omodt:

1000s of items on their shore and they let trolls kind of push

Paul Omodt:

them out of selling the the one or the two.

Kim Clark:

When you're working with leaders, executive CEOs,

Kim Clark:

and it's very sensitive time, you know, whether it's a social

Kim Clark:

crisis, social crisis or a product crisis, whatever, you

Kim Clark:

know, it may be you know, I don't know if you've been

Kim Clark:

involved in boycotts or recalls or you know, those kinds of any

Kim Clark:

kind of crisis situation, obviously, what comes up for

Kim Clark:

them that they share with you on where their mindset is and being

Kim Clark:

resistant towards really owning and framing and naming the

Kim Clark:

crisis situation and benefiting from it. From a reputational

Kim Clark:

standpoint

Paul Omodt:

you as Isaiah sounds, I'm going to tell you a

Paul Omodt:

couple of things that people kind of scratch it and they go

Paul Omodt:

You sure about that? I will tell you that most executives when

Paul Omodt:

they're making decisions, of course, you expect them to have

Paul Omodt:

the best interests of the organization at hand. But a lot

Paul Omodt:

of times with their most kind of like fearful in the back of

Paul Omodt:

their minds, is how do I explain this to my peer group, other

Paul Omodt:

executives, right? People at the where I shot where I play, where

Paul Omodt:

my family goes, either what's a country club, a church, whatever

Paul Omodt:

it may be, that is one of their fears is the social action,

Paul Omodt:

social interaction, they have to have an explain it to their

Paul Omodt:

peers. And so if you don't account for that, in your

Paul Omodt:

crisis, communications, you have failed. And that's one of the

Paul Omodt:

things when I talk about framing with clients, one of the things

Paul Omodt:

I talked about in frame is what I call proximal communications.

Paul Omodt:

Proximal communications means that those that are closest to

Paul Omodt:

an issue, need the most kind of personal level of communications

Paul Omodt:

that applies to, which tells me that, hey, I can't send an email

Paul Omodt:

to someone who just lost a loved one in a car crash, if I'm the

Paul Omodt:

executive, I might have to go to the hospital, I might have to

Paul Omodt:

make a phone call, right? I'm not going to send an email and

Paul Omodt:

say, Hey, I'm sorry, your some your loved one died, right? I've

Paul Omodt:

got to take care of the person and the person on both ends the

Paul Omodt:

communications, that same proximal communication applies

Paul Omodt:

for executives, who are making a decision they have a secondary

Paul Omodt:

crisis is How do I look to my friends and family, my peer

Paul Omodt:

group. And you've got to give them the language for that. So

Paul Omodt:

they are comfortable so they can make the decision. That's

Paul Omodt:

ultimately the best decision. And again, it seems like a small

Paul Omodt:

thing. But most executives have a peer group of other executives

Paul Omodt:

that they counsel with, and having to go back into a

Paul Omodt:

situation where you feel uncomfortable explaining your

Paul Omodt:

point of view, or the organization's point of view, or

Paul Omodt:

feeling sheepish about it. Because you have the language to

Paul Omodt:

use, or the narc, the arc of the story, you lose. And that's

Paul Omodt:

really where some of their fear comes from Kim. And that's been

Paul Omodt:

my experience for a long time. And I

Kim Clark:

completely agree with Yeah, completely agree with you

Kim Clark:

like, this is one of those moments where I say, the AI is

Kim Clark:

in the details. And I've seen this as well, I've seen the

Kim Clark:

exact same thing in but what it looks like to us is a bravado a

Kim Clark:

a shut down, you know, like, you know, we're not doing that. And

Kim Clark:

they don't go into the the why, you know, and they may not even

Kim Clark:

be able to connect the dots. But we need to see, you know, what's

Kim Clark:

going on more behind the thought process. So, you know, before we

Kim Clark:

wrap up, Paul, I would love to talk to you about kind of the

Kim Clark:

art and science of apologies, when you're in crisis

Kim Clark:

communications. Now in the book, as you know, Janet and I, you

Kim Clark:

know, introduce the depth Model D p th, which is how to position

Kim Clark:

your organization uniquely tailored to the organization on

Kim Clark:

social topics and dei communication issues and topics.

Kim Clark:

And Janet does share an apology framework in the book. And I

Kim Clark:

would love to hear from you as it relates to the Duluth model.

Kim Clark:

I'd love to hear from you. How do you kind of set up and make

Kim Clark:

your recommendations on how to apologize in the claimant? Maybe

Kim Clark:

this isn't the claimant portion of your process? Yeah.

Paul Omodt:

In again, I always tell people in a crisis

Paul Omodt:

situation, we got to treat humans as humans. And again,

Paul Omodt:

that sounds trite. But what we forget sometimes is that I'm

Paul Omodt:

making a you know, I'm a corporate or an organization

Paul Omodt:

making an organizational decision. But I'm also a human

Paul Omodt:

making decisions that affect other humans. And so we have to

Paul Omodt:

bring it the the apology portion of this and apology is a

Paul Omodt:

correction. Right? An apology is an acknowledgment, an apology is

Paul Omodt:

saying, hey, something went wrong, and I'm taking my

Paul Omodt:

responsibility for it in my portion of it. That's kind of

Paul Omodt:

the claim of it. Right? The claim is what is mine to own?

Paul Omodt:

What is mine to manage? What is mine to comment on all those

Paul Omodt:

things? Right? What does a reasonable Audience Member

Paul Omodt:

looking for me to do from my organizational standpoint? And

Paul Omodt:

how do I go into that with authentic language that does

Paul Omodt:

that might be the easy part is is writing the statement and

Paul Omodt:

putting it out there because there is a framework for it

Paul Omodt:

right? The hard part is actually working with a human that has to

Paul Omodt:

deliver it or sign off on it, and making sure they understand

Paul Omodt:

what's at stake for them. So as communicators again, it's our

Paul Omodt:

job to understand your executive on an intellectual level might

Paul Omodt:

understand this, but on an emotional level, they might not

Paul Omodt:

be able to get there unless you lead them through it. And so I

Paul Omodt:

always tell people, this is where it gets touchy feely. And

Paul Omodt:

this is where I want you to talk about your feelings because

Paul Omodt:

there will be feelings involved here, right? Which sounds super

Paul Omodt:

corny as a counselor because they want action steps and

Paul Omodt:

metrics and feelings are soft and squishy. But you've got to

Paul Omodt:

go with the rational and the feeling aspect of this if you're

Paul Omodt:

going to make this successful and apology involves a lot Out

Paul Omodt:

of emotion, you've got to manage the emotion. It doesn't they

Paul Omodt:

these two tracks cannot. You can't just have one track in

Paul Omodt:

both tracks.

Kim Clark:

And when have you seen apologies, basically make

Kim Clark:

things worse, rather than better? Like what are the

Kim Clark:

elements of what not to do in an apology?

Paul Omodt:

An apology that comes too late, an apology

Paul Omodt:

doesn't go far enough, or an apology that is inauthentic are

Paul Omodt:

the three kinds of cardinal sins of bad apologies, thoughts and

Paul Omodt:

practices? Exactly. It's thoughts and prayers rather than

Paul Omodt:

action steps, beliefs, things I'm going to do. And so you

Paul Omodt:

know, it's it's the trite, easy things that people unfortunately

Paul Omodt:

sometimes, you know, accept, you know, thoughts and prayers,

Paul Omodt:

thoughts and prayers. You know, every time, you know, America is

Paul Omodt:

the land of the mass shooting, right? And everybody says, Well,

Paul Omodt:

don't talk about it now because it's too fresh. And there's

Paul Omodt:

another one then three days later, another man's three days

Paul Omodt:

later, and his thoughts and prayers over and over again. Do

Paul Omodt:

we really want to live like that, right? Or do we want to

Paul Omodt:

start having people have a voice and start seeing that when you

Paul Omodt:

see common sense gun laws that, you know, 90% of the population

Paul Omodt:

agrees with, we're still not doing anything. Because we can

Paul Omodt:

get paralyzed by the fear of what we might lose one of my

Paul Omodt:

hyperactive trolls, right, my post truth trolls might come

Paul Omodt:

after me. And I haven't learned how to be strong enough to avoid

Paul Omodt:

that, or to deal with it emotionally and rationally. And

Paul Omodt:

so again, apologies that don't go far enough, right. They're

Paul Omodt:

too late or they're inauthentic. You know, and the other thing

Paul Omodt:

Kim, I also counsel my clients on is, you know, you don't have

Paul Omodt:

to be an expert in every topic under the sun to make a

Paul Omodt:

statement. And sometimes you're better off not making a

Paul Omodt:

statement, because it isn't your lane. Right? Yeah, it isn't your

Paul Omodt:

thing to comment.

Kim Clark:

That's the W. Yep,

Paul Omodt:

exactly. We've seen people talk about things that

Paul Omodt:

just, they shouldn't be expected to comment on. You know, I

Paul Omodt:

probably don't know about the famine in Africa, I shouldn't

Paul Omodt:

comment on that my organization doesn't talk about famine, you

Paul Omodt:

know, that just isn't my thing. But if it is my thing, I should

Paul Omodt:

comment on it. Because people expect a comment from me, they

Paul Omodt:

expect my guidance, or my point of view on it as an

Paul Omodt:

organization. And again, we see people being forced to make

Paul Omodt:

statements on things that are topical, but not in their lane.

Paul Omodt:

Right. And so again, staying in your lane can be an important

Paul Omodt:

piece of that. So you're not making a pot, you know,

Paul Omodt:

apologies for things. And we saw, we've seen that with the

Paul Omodt:

Middle East crisis, you know, organizations not making a

Paul Omodt:

statement being forced to make a statement making a misstatement.

Paul Omodt:

It may be it just isn't their lane. Because there's we can

Paul Omodt:

find a conflict, so many places in the world to comment on.

Paul Omodt:

Right. And

Kim Clark:

there's a lot to be done internally to support our

Kim Clark:

employees, especially those who are directly impacted. Paul, I'm

Kim Clark:

going to ask you the same question I asked you in part

Kim Clark:

one, but I'm sure you have a different slightly different

Kim Clark:

answer, given our topic today is what is it sound look like?

Kim Clark:

Smell like to communicate like you give a damn when it comes to

Kim Clark:

crisis communications?

Paul Omodt:

You know what? To do it like you, you give a damn.

Paul Omodt:

Yeah, I laugh when I say that. Because it means that you are

Paul Omodt:

direct and you're honest, and you're authentic, right? And you

Paul Omodt:

have a sense of people. And I think a lot of times we start

Paul Omodt:

talking in corporate terms or organizational terms, as opposed

Paul Omodt:

to people terms. And that's why lately, I've really been

Paul Omodt:

constantly to local, local, local, local means local people

Paul Omodt:

touching local people think about local connections, that

Paul Omodt:

human to human contact. And that's why my discussions on

Paul Omodt:

proximal communications have been more and more and having

Paul Omodt:

people say, Hey, you might have to be out there as a leader

Paul Omodt:

talking to people. And I have to give them the tools, the talking

Paul Omodt:

points, the skill set to go talk to people. I've had more and

Paul Omodt:

more clients come to me and say, Hey, Paul helped me with

Paul Omodt:

interpersonal communications, intercultural interpersonal

Paul Omodt:

communication, and doing a series of seminars with people

Paul Omodt:

on how do I work with people that might come to a nursing

Paul Omodt:

home or hospital, something like that? It can be any culture, any

Paul Omodt:

language that comes to these places? How do I help understand

Paul Omodt:

them? Deal with them? How do I communicate more effectively,

Paul Omodt:

because that is part of crisis response as well. Because a

Paul Omodt:

miscommunication in a situation like that can be a huge kind of

Paul Omodt:

trigger for a crisis. And they're realizing that

Paul Omodt:

intercultural interpersonal communications is more important

Paul Omodt:

now than ever. And again, that is crisis prevention, when you

Paul Omodt:

train on that, when you understand that when your

Paul Omodt:

frontline staff understands it, all the way up to your C suite,

Paul Omodt:

then we're seeing more and more of that I my business in that

Paul Omodt:

area has been just kind of growing and growing and growing,

Paul Omodt:

because people need the language and the skill set to do that.

Paul Omodt:

And again, if it if it hasn't been your community of people,

Paul Omodt:

and you have to deal with different communities of people

Paul Omodt:

and how they communicate and the language they use and the

Paul Omodt:

cultural norms that they might have, whether it's verbal or

Paul Omodt:

nonverbal communication. It's a whole new world out there where

Paul Omodt:

you are now during your job if you are Miss communicating and

Paul Omodt:

not putting that into your crisis communications plan,

Kim Clark:

I appreciate your your naming the crisis

Kim Clark:

prevention opportunities because that's that's a place. That's a

Kim Clark:

point of frustration for a lot of us and dei in general, but

Kim Clark:

specifically for me as an expert in DDI communications, because

Kim Clark:

we organizations magically have budget lines for crisis

Kim Clark:

communications, but they don't proactively and strategically

Kim Clark:

and thoughtfully invest in crisis prevention. So having a

Kim Clark:

dei communications person with your crisis communications,

Kim Clark:

folks and working through all that, and using the depth model

Kim Clark:

out of our book, The conscious communicator, the fine art of

Kim Clark:

not saying stupid shit, that's the name of the book that I co

Kim Clark:

authored with Chad Stovall that Paul got to see me speak and

Kim Clark:

talk about so we're kind of giggling about some of the

Kim Clark:

things that I said in that room that day. But it that's we

Kim Clark:

really need to do some paradigm shifting around here we have to

Kim Clark:

get away from you and kind of summarize our conversation Paul

Kim Clark:

is you know get away from the deny deflect attack you know

Kim Clark:

that kind of stuff into the claim it name it frame it

Kim Clark:

process that Paul uses, and this is preventative, you know, don't

Kim Clark:

have the magic budget appear when there's a crisis situation

Kim Clark:

is way more expensive. It impacts your reputation, as Paul

Kim Clark:

was saying, it's way more time it's a time suck, and all of it

Kim Clark:

could be prevented. Most likely, I had a time still have a crisis

Kim Clark:

comms plan, but do it with a DI comms person in the room. Use

Kim Clark:

the depth model. Paul, any final words? And and how can people

Kim Clark:

get in touch with you?

Paul Omodt:

You can come to my website, online associates.com.

Paul Omodt:

Anytime you can find me on LinkedIn, I have a lot of

Paul Omodt:

followers on LinkedIn. I live in Minneapolis. I'm pretty easy to

Paul Omodt:

find in Minneapolis. I've been here for for nearly 60 years

Paul Omodt:

now. But really, Kim to kind of wrap up crisis communications

Paul Omodt:

again, the best work I do you never see. Think about that

Paul Omodt:

concept. The best work you and I Yeah, people never see because

Paul Omodt:

we've fixed the problem ahead of time. That's right, thought it

Paul Omodt:

through ahead of time we've applied the things, you would

Paul Omodt:

much rather never see me or see me on the front end rather than

Paul Omodt:

the back end of a crisis. So let's do our best work so people

Paul Omodt:

don't see it, right? We've normalized good behavior. we've

Paul Omodt:

normalized thoughtful conversations ahead of time, as

Paul Omodt:

opposed to after and we're playing cleanup.

Kim Clark:

Perfect. Paul, thank you so so much for being here.

Kim Clark:

Ken,

Paul Omodt:

thanks for having me again. Appreciate it.

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