Exploring Intentional Leadership and Authentic Relationships with Shana Francesca

In this captivating episode, Shana Francesca, an expert in intentional and ethical leadership, shares her transformative journey from a challenging upbringing to becoming an influential leader in the field. Francesca discusses the significance of curiosity, respect, vulnerability, and accountability in fostering healthy relationships and ethical leadership. She offers insightful strategies for recognizing and addressing toxic leadership while promoting empathy and interconnectedness through practices like curiosity walks. The conversation extends to the dynamics of co-living, emphasizing genuine engagement and respectful communication. Francesca also highlights the importance of organizations investing in their people to spur innovation and create profitable, supportive environments.

00:00 Introduction and Personal Background

01:10 Journey to Understanding Leadership and Relationships

02:11 Defining Toxic Leadership

04:56 Personal Experiences with Harm

06:23 Foundations of a Toxic Environment

08:27 Practicing Curiosity, Respect, and Accountability

11:25 Understanding Relationships

13:44 Roommate Experiences

14:20 Challenges with Male Roommates

14:56 Living with Women

17:51 The Importance of Vulnerability

19:34 Understanding Genuine Connection

21:41 My Business and Public Speaking

22:57 Leadership and Relationship

25:23 Future Goals and Innovation

27:33 Final Thoughts on Curiosity

james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

All right, can you tell me a

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bit about yourself, who you

are, and what your message is?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

my name is Shana Francesca.

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I am a scholar of intentional and

ethical leadership and relationship

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and, a little bit about myself.

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I grew up in extremely

high control situations.

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So

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an abusive household and in high control

religion and, had no understanding

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of, was never given the ability.

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Or given models for healthy

relationship or leadership.

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so as I moved into adulthood, I

realized, wait a second, you probably

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are not healthy in all the ways, right?

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Like you're not being able to show

up, because you don't know how.

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And also you don't know what kind of.

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Like I was, working in jobs

where leadership was toxic.

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And I was like, I keep ending up in

scenarios where I'm being harmed.

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And so there's a pattern here and

I've got to figure out what healthy

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relationship and leadership looks like

for myself so that I can identify it

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and I can keep myself out of harm's way.

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and that began a 14 years worth of

study into leadership and relationship

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that somewhere along the way, I became

an expert and people kept coming

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to me and asking me like, Hey, how

do I show up as a better leader?

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How do I show up as a better friend?

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how do I better empower

myself in relationship?

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and then, you know, it kind of turned

into what I do now, which is consulting

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and, and keynote speaking, and

workshops and get to talk to people,

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about what relationship is, because

I think for far too many of us, maybe

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we think relationship is proximity.

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If we have access to somebody, we're

in relationship with them, right?

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But that's not what

relationship is, right?

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Relationship is just not proximity.

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Relationship is continually trying

to gain expertise in understanding

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the people in the world around us,

and that requires specific things.

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And so the basis of my work is

that all relationship and ethical

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leadership requires curiosity,

respect and accountability.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

So, what is toxic leadership?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

I mean, it shows up in so many forms.

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but I think oftentimes what I see happen

is that people were taught a lot of

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leaders have been taught this, playbook of

like, you have to know it all or you have

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to convince everybody, you know, at all.

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And you need to be the one in control.

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You need to be the one

telling everybody what to do.

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Everything has to go through you.

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it's both not efficient.

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It's fundamentally inhumane for both you

as a leader and the people you're leading.

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It diminishes their

capacity to contribute.

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And we as human beings need

to both be needed, right.

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And to contribute.

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as much as we want to give to

others, we also need to be needed.

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and so, fundamentally we

have to realize that being a

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leader, it's about reciprocity.

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and so when we're not invested in

reciprocity with the people that we

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lead, when we are not valuing their

opinions and insights, when we are

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avoiding accountability because

we don't want to think about the

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fact that we've done harm, right?

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To me, the most successful

years I've seen are the ones

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who can say, I caused harm here.

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I didn't have enough information.

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I'm going to learn more.

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I'm going to make it right.

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I'm going to do better.

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And those companies, we see cultures like

that inside of all kinds of organizations.

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where they were able to transform

these companies that were struggling,

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like, even like Campbell soup.

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Right.

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And now they've transformed themselves

to a place where they're buying up

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and, all kinds of, brands and they're

expanding and they're growing.

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And why?

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Because the CEO came in,

in the early two thousands.

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Yeah.

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And he was like, you

know what I'm gonna do?

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I'm gonna walk these halls and I'm gonna

talk to the people who have been doing

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this for a really long time because

there's a lot of untapped wisdom there.

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There's so much wisdom inside the people

who are doing of our organizations.

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They see things we don't have

access to, and we really need

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to not undervalue that we can't.

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Literally, we can't value it enough.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

Define harm.

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

Anytime we're violating someone's

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consent or boundaries, I mean,

harm can be any number of things.

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It depends on the person.

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It depends on their own boundaries.

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But typically, you know, when we're

talking about harm, we're talking about

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something that inhibits somebody's

ability to live a thriving life.

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it doesn't mean that people

don't need to be challenged.

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It doesn't mean that we

don't need to grow and learn.

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But when we're inhibiting somebody's

ability to be connected to their own

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humanity while we're violating someone's

autonomy, when we are being disrespectful,

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when we are refusing accountability on our

relationship with them, we are doing harm.

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And we're seeking to normalize

it when we avoid accountability.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852: Were

you a victim of this harm at any time?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

Of course, I grew up in an

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abusive household and inside

of a high control religion.

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I was, people did cause me lots of harm.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

What types of people?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

the, mostly the adults around me, right?

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So it was a varying degrees when the

people around me who were definitely

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old enough to be taking accountability,

who refused accountability, who,

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Consistently told I was to do what

I was told, did not have the right

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to ask why, because even asking why

was disrespectful, which isn't true.

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I have a right to establish why

somebody wants me to do something,

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whether I'm a child or an adult, and

I have a right to establish whether

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or not that violates my boundaries.

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and so it was always for me to do as I

was told, never mind the consequences.

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I was not allowed to ask

about the consequences or, or

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challenge the consequences.

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They were just mine to

bear and to do so quietly.

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I grew up in a very toxic environment.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852: Before

we get deeper into the toxic environment.

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

No, are you?

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

Okay, that's good.

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So,

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what are

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the foundations to a toxic environment?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

I think, rather than the foundations of

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a toxic environment, what I see is what

leads to a toxic environment is a lack of

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accountability, that there are people who

are kept separate from accountability.

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There are people who have a

diminished requirement to be

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accountable at minimum, right?

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The minute that we.

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especially as leaders, but as human

beings are divested, the minute that we

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are trying to protect ourselves, dodge,

avoid accountability is the minute we are

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causing harm and we are normalizing it.

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And that really is fundamental

because also at the same time, we're

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probably trying to stifle curiosity.

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We don't want people to ask questions.

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We don't want people to be

connected to one another.

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We keep people pitted against one another.

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if accountability has left the

conversation, so is curiosity.

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So has the desire to connect people to

understanding and education and growth

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compassion because empathy and compassion

are deeply connected to because we can't.

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empathize with somebody who's

got a completely different lived

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experience than us if we aren't

even interested in their story, in

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understanding their lived experience.

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and if curiosity has left, so

is respect because those are

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deeply tied together, right?

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I can't respect you and your boundaries

if I don't even know what they are.

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right?

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I can try to enforce what I

think is respecting you on you.

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But unless it's actually

informed, it's not respect.

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what I see is missing in toxic

environments is curiosity,

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respect and accountability.

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And what I see showing up

consistently in, cultures that

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consistently seek to, be healthy.

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And to value their people and contribute

to their people's thriving so that

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they as an organization can thrive.

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Curiosity, respect and

accountability are cultivated and

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honored and valued consistently.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

So how could we begin practicing

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curiosity, respect, and accountability?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

I think the important part is to start

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with curiosity, because like I said, their

curiosity is connected to the other two.

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it really is the foundation of everything.

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one of the ways that I talk to people

about is, starting with a curiosity

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walk, there's so much life around

us that we take for granted, that

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we don't even acknowledge exists.

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And we also do not consciously acknowledge

that we exist because it exists.

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That we exist because of other people.

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Overlapping interdependent

ecosystems all life on earth exists

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because of all the other life.

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And we cause harm to one group of life.

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It has a ripple effect.

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that's part of why curiosity is

so powerful and empowering empathy

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because we start to understand the

interconnectedness of all life on earth.

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I love to go on a curiosity walk,

and I encourage people to do this,

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whether you're just a human being

or you're a leader, because quite

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frankly, you're probably both,

there are always people looking to

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us for models to try to understand

how to better navigate the world or

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accomplish something or whatever it is,

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Even if we're only leading our own

life to go outside, take a walk.

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Right.

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Be present and find something either,

you know, nothing about, right.

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Or what my favorite thing to do is to find

something I've quote unquote known about

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my whole life and find three new facts.

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Like how does it benefit

the world around it.

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especially if I've been taught like

it doesn't have a place, right?

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So I've learned more about dandelions and

about poison ivy and about honeysuckles.

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You know, there's like

white and yellow ones.

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Those are definitely invasive.

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Not great.

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They really should be pulled out.

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But, but there's all kinds of other

honeysuckles that I learned about that

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are native and indigenous that we could be

planting and cultivating instead, right?

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but dandelions have

been Beautiful purpose.

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You can eat the whole thing, right?

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You can use the, the roots for tea.

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The leaves have a bunch of vitamin

K and are great for bone health.

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The flowers can be eaten as well.

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The whole thing has benefit to us.

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It also adds calcium into the soil.

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It helps with soil erosion.

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There's a whole bunch of things that

dandelions benefit like benefit the

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soil and the world around us, but we've

been taught to hate them and to root

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them out and that they shouldn't exist.

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I think it's a beautiful metaphor

for us to start to recognize that

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there are value in things that

even we've been taught or has been

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normalized to hate, including people.

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And so I think when we learn three

new facts about something we quote

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unquote think we've known about our

whole life, it starts to challenge

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our perception and worldview.

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It starts to challenge

how much we actually know.

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and helps us to recognize that we've

actually been in proximity to the

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world around us, not in relationship.

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And that the important shift is that

we go from proximity to relationship.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852: What

would you define as a relationship?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

there's all kinds of relationships, right?

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But I think at the root of all of them,

if it's truly healthy, there has to be

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curiosity, respect, and accountability.

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there has to be reciprocity,

and there has to be consistency.

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It doesn't mean that there isn't a

give and a take, But there are things

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that we can give in relationship that

aren't tangible, One person might

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have a physical disability and can't

contribute in one specific way or

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might have talents in certain areas.

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another person or persons might

have strengths and talents

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and abilities in other areas.

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And it's about us

contributing what we do have.

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It's about us recognizing that

contributions are unique to us and

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us consistently investing those in

the world around us, what we have

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to give, what we have to share.

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because you know, I hear just an example

I like to share with people is like,

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you've heard about those people who

got divorced and it was like amicable.

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You're not even really

sure why they got divorced.

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Cause like, you'd never

really saw them fighting.

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It didn't really seem like they

didn't like each other, but then

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it comes to the divorce part and

people are like, okay, but why?

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And they're like, well,

because after a while we just

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started feeling your roommates.

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Right.

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and it's that.

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That right there, where you see

curiosity left, they're no longer one

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or both people are no longer invested

in being curious about one another.

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And it went from relationship

to proximity, right?

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And there was no longer

a sense of fulfillment.

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And it's actually quite lonely when

you're in proximity to people and

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you're not in relationship with them.

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I think it's even lonelier than

if you were just alone because

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being surrounded by people you

want to be connected to can't.

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don't know how or they don't

want to be connected to you.

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I mean, that's an incredibly

lonely place to be.

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think it's really important

that we recognize that

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relationship requires effort.

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have to be hard, but it does

require effort and consistency.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852: How

many roommates have you had in your life?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

do you count family?

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so I, when I left at 20, Five.

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I lived with my grandfather for a year.

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at 26, I had two guy roommates

who were firefighters slash EMTs.

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Then, I had another roommate who was

like a truck driver or something.

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I knew him through a friend and then I

lived with, a couple of women in Philly.

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and then I lived with another

woman who was a business owner.

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So I've had quite a few

roommates throughout my life.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

So did it feel lonely?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

When I lived with women, no.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

So the guys just weren't as curious?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

no.

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I think there was this element

of them wanting to date

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me, which made it, awkward.

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so I needed to get out of the situation

I was in and I knew the two firefighters

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slash, EMTs, they were pretty good.

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in my town and I had known them for years.

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And so I knew they had an extra bedroom

and I just like moved in lived there

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for like a year, then needed to leave

that situation because the guy who owned

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the house really wanted to date me.

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And I was like, I don't

really want to date you.

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And so then moved in with, I knew

someone else who was moving out

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of a condo, not that far away.

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And so I moved into that bedroom, but

the same scenario kind of repeated.

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And then I was like,

no more male roommates.

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I'm just going to live with women now.

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but it just happened that the first

places I lived were with guy roommates.

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and then I swore that off.

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it was lonely with women or femme

presenting persons or people who

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are non binary who, you know, have

either done the work to recognize what

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relationship is and requires or have it.

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you know, generally been

socialized to, to be allowed to

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have the deeper conversations.

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It's a very different thing, right?

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We're talking about our hopes, our

dreams, our fears, our challenges,

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what we're reading, who we might've met

this week, how we're feeling inspired.

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I mean, there's many levels

and layers of conversation.

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when I lived with men, there was never

that, the conversations were very,

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very surface, if at all, unfortunately.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

How did you know that these women you

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moved in with were Genuinely curious.

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

I find that women in my life have been

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more curious, have been more invested

in understood what relationship is,

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you know, that's in general, there's

still conversations that have to be had.

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There's still conflict that comes

up when you live with people, but

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when you're curious, when you're

moving through conflict, right?

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It's a very different

thing than when you are.

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assuming that everyone around

you, is bad or wrong for not

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meeting your needs, right.

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Or so on and so forth.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

Now, what about respect?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

what do you mean?

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Like you want me to define it or.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

did these women portray respect

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and accountability as well

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

so, I mean, they were roommates

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in my late twenties, right.

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This is a very long time ago.

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I was not doing the

work that I'm doing now.

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Right.

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So I, I, I don't necessarily

want to say that.

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I want that to be like a

focus of the conversation.

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I'm happy to answer the question.

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I'm just not sure how it like

relates specifically to, to this

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moment, the last decade of my life.

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But, you know, there was

conversations that were had, right?

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We can, When you show up with

curiosity and I'm like, Hey, you know,

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I'm moving in, I have some stuff.

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Do you guys mind if I reorganize

the kitchen so that all of

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our stuff fits together?

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And then we can see what's duplicate and

we can either store it or we can sell it.

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Right?

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Like there's a series of conversations

that are had when you respect one another.

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get to know each other's wants, needs,

desires, each other's boundaries.

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what is valuable and really

important to one another?

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What are the non negotiables?

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There's all of these things that

happen in conversations and they're not

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necessarily easy conversations to have.

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They're not necessarily

without their tension, right?

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But in order to really be invested

in relationship, we have to be

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willing to get uncomfortable.

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I'm not saying you have to

be willing to endure harm.

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I'm saying you have to be willing

to be vulnerable and vulnerability

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is uncomfortable and that has

to be honored and valued by both

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or all people that are involved.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

vulnerability?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

I would say that it depends on the moment.

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It depends on, how vulnerable you want

to be with someone or how safe you feel.

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Again, I think that's related

to someone's, curiosity and

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respect and accountability.

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but I think vulnerability is us.

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Choosing to or being safe to share who we

really are, with people around us, right?

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Desiring to truly be connected, right?

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If we're constantly protecting

ourselves from the people around

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us, that's either an indication

of, trauma on our part, right?

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or that we don't feel

safe with that person.

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If we're not willing to be vulnerable

with the people around us, if we're not

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willing to share our thoughts, wants

and desires, if we, trivialize the

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impact of that, if we pretend that's not

important, then we're not ready to be

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in relationship with the people around

us sharing who we are, is fundamental.

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To people being able to actually

be connected to us, you can't

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connect to you and you can't

be connected to other people.

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If you aren't willing to share who

you are, what inspires you, what gets

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you going in the morning, what you

like and don't like, it's varying

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degrees of aspects of yourself.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

How do you know if someone

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is sharing who they are?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

I mean,

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typically it's based on the

type of conversations, right?

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So like, I'm coming to you and I'm talking

about, my business and how I feel about

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it and what's coming up and what I'm

excited about, if I'm talking about, the

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new hobby that I'm exploring or the fact

that I got back to, Boxing classes, or

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I started learning a new dance and it's

about sharing when we share ourselves,

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other people can then start to see

themselves in what we're sharing, right?

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We start to see points of connection.

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We start to see points of overlap, right?

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If somebody is keeping the

conversation very surface level,

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They're not really talking about

their thoughts, wants, fears, desires.

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Those are the things we

typically are afraid of somebody

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judging us or on and so forth.

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Right.

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but we also have to be careful

because you don't also want to go into

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like the verbal vomit realm, right?

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We've got to understand somebody

else's boundaries, how much they

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want to know, so on and so forth.

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different relationships have

different levels of depth.

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Right.

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not everybody is going to want to know

your deepest, darkest fears, but they

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might be the person you call when you

want to go and, have a super fun day.

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you know, there's different

types of relationships that

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give and take in different ways,

but we generally can feel it.

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We can feel when somebody is holding

themselves back, we can feel when

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they don't want to share who they are.

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We can feel when all they have to talk

about is like job, their car, their

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house, you know, and not in ways that are

like, Oh, my God, this thing just broke.

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And I didn't know what I was going to do.

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And I had to like, find the contractor.

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And it was really stressful.

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and I felt really vulnerable because I

didn't know how it was going to cause,

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like, it's how someone approaches a

conversation and the levels at which

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they're willing to discuss, like

how they feel about what's going on,

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not just what's actually going on.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

So what is your business about

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

what I do is, mostly

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focused on public speaking.

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So I do, you know, I'm a keynote speaker.

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I've also facilitate workshops,

and I do consulting around.

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Leadership and relationship.

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So what is intentional

and ethical leadership?

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What is intentional and

ethical relationship?

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What do they require?

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How does it empower our lives?

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Our leadership, our

organizations, our communities?

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Why is that so important to us?

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Actually living joyful

and fulfilled lives?

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sometimes I'm speaking at a conference

to people who are working specifically

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on, personal development, but most of

the time I'm talking to leaders inside

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of organizations or at conferences

where there are, C suite level or,

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leadership level, individuals in the room.

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And we're having these conversations

around how to better empower,

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their leadership through, ethical

relationship with those they lead,

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which, drives innovation.

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It drives profitability.

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because if you don't have any basic

understanding of relationship and

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you don't have that as a fundamental

basis of your leadership, your people

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aren't going to feel empowered.

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They're not going to

bring their creativity.

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They're not going to share their

thoughts on innovation It's going to

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be stagnated inside your organization

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852: we've

talked a lot throughout this interview

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about both leadership And relationship.

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What do you think is the

relationship between those two?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

relationship.

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Right?

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So intentional and ethical.

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The most powerful version of leadership

is us recognizing we are in relationship

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with the people we lead, whether that

be directly one on one or whether it

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be through culture and the culture

that we establish and those who are

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in leadership positions and how they

influence and affect and further culture.

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Fundamentally, most of what our humanity

is an understanding of relationship,

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understanding of interconnectedness

with ourselves, with one another,

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with all of the living world.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852: What

are your best client success stories?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

there's so many.

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most of the time when I

am working with a leader,

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The most powerful shift is when a

leader begins to recognize, just

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how impactful they are and how

their impact could be expanded

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beyond what it currently is, right?

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Because when you are the one

who's the go to for everything,

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you have to know everything.

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You have to be in control of

everything that is very limiting.

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When we have the conversation

about what intentional and ethical

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leadership is and how expansive it

is, and no longer has to fall on your

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shoulders as an individual person.

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That it probably never should have, right?

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That there's a community of people inside

of your organization that you are leading

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and they have incredible insights.

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And this is about community effort, right?

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watching that shift, right.

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And what it empowers is truly

incredible because now it frees up

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these lines of communication to further.

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Innovation to bring the conversation

forward about what do I see that could,

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in fact, as the person working for a

leader, what do I see as a possible

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revenue source as a way of tweaking

a product we already sell that would

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open up or expand who we can sell it to

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Innovation exists at

every different layer.

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Of what we do and how we bring

it to market and who we connect

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with as our clients, et cetera.

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So, watching that shift from everything

needing to be, driven by leadership as

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opposed to driven by a culture and a

community of people working together.

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It's a really powerful shift.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852:

So what is the future of this

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shift, your goals as a speaker?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

I mean, we're watching organizations

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struggle financially, where the

only way that they're increasing

459

revenue is by increasing pricing.

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that has a ceiling to how far that can go.

461

You can't just in for forever

and ever increase pricing.

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That is not a good business strategy.

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We see wages being stagnated.

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We see organizations struggling

to hire and hold onto talent,

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which is exceptionally expensive.

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So, you know, it becomes a conversation of

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shifting our leadership to investing

in our people's thriving so

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they can invest in our thriving.

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And we've seen organizations that did

this that said, okay, the base pay, the

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lowest we'll pay somebody is 70 K and then

everything else, is increased, from there.

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We see organizations.

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Like gore and associates who are ESOPs

and everybody's in associates and projects

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are moved forward through consensus

and salaries are determined communally.

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We see these organizations

thriving, driving innovation, right?

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That's the goal because innovation

has been stagnated quite frankly,

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for a long time here in this country.

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we consider innovation is barely

shifts in what we're already doing.

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True innovation is not something that's

been driven for a while and organizations

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are struggling because of it.

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the goal is that we actually get to

a place where we're re embracing one

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another, where we are connected to

each other's humanity, where we are

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contributing to one another's thriving.

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So we are collectively thriving and

contributing to the collective thriving.

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The goal is that we get to a place where

organizations are once again, consistently

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driving innovation and profitability.

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Through innovation,

through raising prices.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852: Well,

thank you again for being on the show.

488

Are there any final closing

words you'd like to give to the

489

audience before I let you off here?

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shana-francesca--she-her-_1_10-15-2024_113850:

I think the most impactful thing we

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can do is reconnecting to curiosity.

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And one of the things I clarify is

that curiosity is not this, just the

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desire to know anything because that

can lead us into confirmation bias.

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We can seek information that

just deeper, digs us into our

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trenches, our ideological trenches.

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Instead, curiosity is, is the desire.

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How I define it is the desire

to know someone or something as

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it is not as we want it to be.

499

It's about recognizing its

separateness from us and yet also

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honoring our interdependence.

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I would hope and, desire that people

invest in curiosity in that way.

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james-parris_1_10-15-2024_113852: Okay.

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This is the Paris perspective.

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Thanks again for looking at the show.