“As builders, you have huge overheads. Massive.” Matt said it mid-conversation and it just sat there, because it is the part people outside the construction industry rarely see. They see the finished home and the invoice. They do not see the cash flow pressure, the holding costs, the insurances, the compliance, the admin load, the delays, and how quickly one wobble in the pipeline can hit a building business. That is where this chat with Jessica Kismet from Climasure, host of the Building Sciology Podcast, really goes.

Jessica jumps in as guest host and asks the questions builders usually keep to themselves. Money pressure. Risk. Ego. Family. The emotional load of running a residential construction business in Australia, especially when the market is tight and the margin for error is small. If you are a builder, contractor, or tradie trying to stay steady through uncertainty, this episode will feel very familiar.

We talk openly about the financial tightrope and what it means to actually know your numbers. Builder margins, overheads, pricing, and the real cost of delays are not optional knowledge anymore. Post-COVID, “she’ll be right” is not a strategy. This conversation gets into the learning curve, the mistakes, and the shift from running on instinct to running a more sustainable construction business that can last.

We also get into bigger industry questions. Would we encourage our kids to become builders? Who is the real villain in the building industry, from legislation to contracts to banks and insurance? How do you set boundaries with clients, protect your process, and avoid the compromises that come back to bite you later? And we finish on the long game of building science, where better outcomes depend on builders, architects, and designers understanding the whole system, not just their part of it.

👇 CHAPTER MARKERS 👇

00:00 Introduction

01:07 Passive House Display Tour

02:34 Financial Edge Stories

07:02 Learning Business Basics

11:31 AI As A Coach

13:02 Would You Encourage Kids

16:10 Training Paths And Overwhelm

20:12 Industry Villains And Red Tape

29:56 Midlife Balance And Mortality

32:16 Matt On Not Caring

40:20 Client From Hell Stories

44:37 Vetting Clients No Dickheads

46:15 Fixed Price vs Cost Plus

49:34 Quickfire Building Science

50:55 Failures, Mould, and Leaks

56:18 Builders vs Architects Buy In

01:01:03 Mindful Moment Apprentices

LINKS:

Our Sponsors:

Pro Clima - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/proclima

MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt

CR Kennedy - https://www.crkennedy.com.au/

Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram: @sanctumhomes

Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt:

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/

Mentioned in this episode:

Proclima Sponsor

Have you ever wondered what it means to build with intention?

Well, I'm Hamish.

And I'm Matt, and we are dedicated to pushing boundaries

and building better homes.

We welcome you to join us on the Mindful Builder podcast, where we're

committed to driving positive change in the building industry by surrounding

you with experts in their field and

being open about our lives as builders.

Join us on this mindful journey of construction by subscribing

to the Mindful podcast.

So Jess is stressing out.

So we've got Jess from Climashore Building Psychology podcast.

Uh, yeah, two separate things.

Climashore is my p- my day job, Building Psychology is my

... And in true Matt and Hamish fashion, we threw it on a, a day or two

ago that she could interview us.

She just, yeah.

So we're handing this over to Jess from now on.

So Jess, uh, now Jess is peeking out here because she actually got prepared

and had written a whole bunch of questions, and now she can't find them.

No, I can't

find

them.

And so just for reference, we are recording from our

portable, uh, Pro Clima studios.

We're in SA for the next day doing some event, which is cool.

Um, but perfect.

Well, we're

also, we're also at, uh, Enduro Builder's, uh, certified passive

house display home, the only certified passive house display home in all of

Australia, I've been led to believe.

In, definitely in South Australia.

Yeah, okay.

I'm not sure if it's the whole country.

Let's just

make the claim that it's- Yeah

the only one.

It's, yeah, definitely the only display home.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So if you're in South Australia and you wanna come and experience what a

passive house is, jump onto the Enduro Builder's website and book a tour,

'cause this house is pretty incredible.

Yeah, yeah.

It's nice.

Uh, Jess, if you get your stuff out.

O- on- onto you, Jess.

Let's go.

Tryna buy... I've been tryna buy you some time here while, uh- Thank you.

I had

them downstairs on my, uh, on my laptop, and I was like, "Sweet,

I know exactly where they are."

This is the best.

So this... But we don't prepare any questions, so you should be

able to just, just go for it.

Oh, sh- Just, uh, what's the most difficult question you had there?

All right.

Um, I did quickly review them, so I'm just gonna have to shoot from the hip.

Do it.

Um, all right.

I love this.

This is

very un-Jess style as well, so- It's so unlike me

... I love it.

No, okay.

So- Now, Jess, you, j- by, by way of introduction, Jess, you've

actually been on our podcast before, which is why- I have one time, yeah

which is why we wanna flip the script a little bit, and we've

also been on your podcast.

Yes.

So I'm kinda thinking... And we all talk a lot.

Yes.

So

I'm thinking this is probably just gonna be a chat.

Okay.

Yeah, that sounds good to me.

Yeah,

but I'd also like to know what your questions are.

Yeah.

Oh, God.

Okay.

Ooh.

So, um, I think I wanted to start off with a question about your, um,

okay, deeper in question, and I, only 'cause I can't think of the other

ones that are on my list right now.

Deep end question, you both run building businesses.

Building is a high-stress, high-risk industry to be in.

You guys both run very successful businesses- Um, have you ever been

close to the edge financially, like throwing in the towel?

Oh.

Yep.

I, yeah, I, I would say yes, but not knowing that I was close to the edge.

Yep.

So

we actually just had the chat with Jackson, and we're

just talking about coaching.

Me personally, like I, I haven't tracked my financials.

I know they're in my head.

I know the business from an accounting perspective is profitable each year.

And, and you know it from end of year.

Yeah, yeah, but I don't, but, uh, as time has gone by post-COVID, and now

we have issues within the world, I'm needing to know my numbers more and more.

And that's, so at the moment, my role is I looked at, like I owned Building

Science, and I've owned marketing.

Mm-hmm.

I'm now owning financials in the same amount of input- Yep

but I'm trying to understand them.

Like I, I want to know every single little bit of financial detail

in my business off the top of my head with the click of a finger.

Yeah.

So I'm gonna answer that question twice.

Mm-hmm.

So, so I've been in business for 11 and a bit years now.

Uh, first one was at the very, very beginning of my, uh, journey,

where I think at the time I was sitting there blaming the

client for what was going on- Mm

and like that it was a poorly run job and all that kind of stuff.

On reflection and what I know now, I didn't manage them well.

Mm-hmm.

And there was a whole like shit show at the end where they ended up

moving in, they locked the doors, and basically said, "Oh, there's lots

of defects. You need to fix them."

And I had $60,000 final payment that was sort of waiting to get

paid, and they wouldn't pay it.

Took me 18-- It took us 18 months to negotiate-

Wow ... around, uh, what happened.

Now, yes, they were pains in the ass client, there's no doubt about

that, but also, uh, on reflection, like I didn't manage them well, and I

allowed to happen what happened, um, and look for any client, potential

clients that are listening now, I don't operate like that anymore.

Yeah.

Definitely don't operate like that anymore.

But this is part of the journey as a builder.

And I'd

say business- as builders, like you have 400K come in, you

have 400K come out some days.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like that's, that's building.

Yeah.

And that's the hard part because knowing that is, you've, you, you're robbing other

jobs for some jobs at some certain times.

Like- Yeah ... that's just the way that it, that it is.

Like there's so much moving parts with three, four projects

on the go, five projects.

You have to... The money, so it moves around.

It's fluid.

Yeah.

Mm. It's very fluid.

Yeah.

Um, so there was that one, and then but managed to get out of that fine.

Uh, and then during COVID, probably not on the edge, but certainly exposed a

lot of, uh, deficiencies in my business.

Um, certainly what we talked about with, before with Jackson and, uh,

when things slow down in a business, like COVID obviously slowed stuff down.

I had some projects where Uh, we couldn't work on those sites because

the clients were living in the home.

Like, I don't know what it was like here in South Australia, but

we had to close that part down.

Mm. But obviously my overheads still existed.

So, uh, that was a really interesting, I guess, realization of things that

I needed to change in my business.

Uh, but you know, I'm happy to say that that doesn't happen anymore.

Mm. Um, so- It's a learning,

it's a learning curve.

Big learning, yeah.

Like, I think you...

Like, uh, uh, I say this politely, a- and it will happen to me too, it will

happen again, but you're more prepared for it, but you'll learn more from it now.

Well, I- So the problem is different.

It's, it's, it's a, you're, you're understanding why it's a problem, and

you're proactive rather than reactive.

I

was gonna say, like, I think the biggest difference now being, you

know, 11 or 12 years into business, maybe even longer, I can't remember,

um, is that I can see those things a lot further ahead than back then.

Like, I just didn't have the experience.

Mm-hmm.

So we are all the sum of all of our experiences, and based off those

experiences, I now can sort of see and forecast and better prepare.

And we

have, as a builders, we have huge overheads.

Yeah.

Massive overheads.

And I think that's the part where, um, we're just never taught, the

general rule of running a building company is you do your apprenticeship.

You're most likely not academic, because you've gone into

apprenticeship, and that's just how it's been forever and a day.

And then that's hopefully changing.

Um, we, we're looking at academic as a different way.

You just be maybe better with your hands or a better skill.

Then you fall into being a builder because that's just what happens, and then all

of a sudden you're running a business.

You're never taught financials.

You're never taught marketing.

You're never taught HR. You're never taught all those things.

Yeah, you're really good on site and you understand the

complexity of the construction.

But the business stuff, like, you learn by baptism of fire.

You learn by fucking up.

Yeah, you, yeah, that's it.

That, and I think that's the hard part.

Like, so many people now, they wanna learn building science.

There's so many resources, and yeah, there's resources in business, but

it's a little bit different, I feel.

Mm-hmm.

Mm, mm. I completely resonate with everything you said.

I was part of running a building company years ago, and I,

like, I found the same thing.

Like, there's no... Back when we were doing it, there was no, in

fact, there was no podcast like this.

There was no really good mentoring that we could find.

There was no advice.

Like, did your, when you went into building, did, were you

given any guidance on how to run a business- ... from your families?

From- No,

the, uh, so this is, this-

your, like, trade school?

This is, this, and like I love my parents and I've got a great relationship.

Um, and this isn't a neg- negative thing.

And I, I, how do I word this?

If your parents are telling you it's a great idea and you should go do it,

it might, most likely might not be, because they're only doing it to support

you and encourage you to do something.

Like, my parents haven't run businesses, so for them, like- There

is no transition of that knowledge

Perhaps they didn't understand what they were encouraging you to... Like, if they

were encouraging you, perhaps they didn't understand the whole big picture- Oh,

they're definitely encouraging.

Yeah, they're definitely encouraging as, like- Of what

yeah.

They want you to

get a trade, right?

Yeah.

They want you to have a career path.

Yeah, they weren't inc- they weren't inc- they were encouraging

in the aspect of, like, support.

They were sup- very supportive.

Yeah.

Um, the business stuff, you just can't.

Like, I, I, I don't, like, I don't even know, even if Mum and Dad have

done it, we're running a business, I don't know if would it be translatable

unless it was in construction.

I think business is business, though.

I mean, I think, um-

It's knowing your numbers.

Yeah, I mean, knowing the numbers is something that took me a

long time to really click with.

Mm. You know, my, my brain doesn't naturally go there.

I'm more interested in the creative side of things.

I like the marketing, I like the problem-solving.

You know, it takes a lot for me to get engaged with that stuff, and I'm, I'm

becoming more and more engaged with that, you know, with every week that goes by.

You've gotta find a

way to make financials fun.

That's what I'm trying to do.

Yeah,

totally.

And yeah, like, and for someone like me, I really need to sort of cut,

compartmentalize it into time slots.

Like, if I'm like, I need to learn what my WIP means or, like, what my cash

position is, or what are, you know, what all these things are, like, I couldn't

be like, "Well, I'm gonna do it this week- Mm-hmm ... or for the next two

weeks." It needs to be like, "Right, I'm gonna allocate this time every single

week to work on that a little bit."

Uh- And just block it out in your calendar.

But yeah, that's what I do.

Yeah, same.

I've got it, I've got it, I've got it in my diary to do it.

Now, that's me personally.

It, some other people might, um, be completely different.

I, I mean, I kind of entered in the construction industry,

I guess, through the back door.

Like, I'm, I haven't got a carpentry apprenticeship, but I

was on the tools for 12 years.

Mm-hmm.

So I know how, I know how to build a home.

Pretty much like Jackson.

Mm. Jackson's pretty handy.

Uh, and construction made sense to me.

I actually went to uni, and I've got a business degree, um,

focusing on marketing and tourism.

Mm-hmm.

So this is why I'm so excited about marketing.

Yeah.

Um, and I did do basic accounting and basic economics, but that

stuff I found quite boring.

It, I, I wasn't engaged by it.

I, I was engaged- ... with the creativity side of the tourism and the

marketing stuff, and that's evident in my ability to go and market- Mm

and see how we can communicate- Yeah ... what Sanctum Homes does.

Uh, but, like, the, the numbers for me is certainly something

that... And I know for you,

you know.

I actually love numbers, so that's probably why I was drawn to

pace fast, did a science degree.

So I'm actually very comfortable right now trying to learn them, but

it's the, it's the distractions.

There's so many other things that go on in the world right now, uh, that

you can just, the tools, how you have accessible to use, which for the

good, but it's, it's narrowing and, like, what do, what do you, is at the

core of what you're trying to learn.

Yeah, and I'm just gonna throw a caution to a wind.

This is really just a throwaway comment from me.

There's a lot of people out there that right now are like, "Oh, AI's

gonna solve that for me." Yeah.

I think AI can help you solve problems- But it's like, uh, you

know, y- y- you drive a car, like, you need to learn how to drive a

car before you jump into a race car.

Mm. And I think by attaching AI to your business, you're supercharging your

business, and if you don't know how to drive that really well, then you're

probably gonna go down the gurgler really

quickly.

I'm using it as a coach to help me learn.

So I'm not telling it to go, "Hey, go... What's my financials?" Like, I'm actually,

for... And I'll just make this up.

Can you explain how WIP is?

How does... What does it work?

How is it calculated?

Yeah.

Can you step me through to work it out?

That's awesome, but you need to know what...

You need to know that you need to find a WIP- Um, so these are- You

need to find out what WIP means first ... So these, so these are the...

Yeah.

So these are, and this is- Is it- Like, I'm, I've asked her

to go back to, like, basics.

Yeah.

And that's what I'm saying.

I think you need to learn the basics of something- Yeah

before you start layering over this, you know, all these other tools,

whether that's software, whether it's AI- Yeah ... or whatever.

I think you need to know how to use it first or have a basic understanding.

Like, don't just rely on, like, an external source-

No ... to fix your problems.

Yeah.

What's next?

Yeah.

Um, given all of that and, you know, if you've got four kids

between you, if either of-

Hamish has three, by the

way

any Unevenly balanced, but if any one of

your kids- We, we don't have kids

together.

Yet.

Yeah.

Let's make that really

clear.

Um, if any of your kids picked up a tool belt at any point, would

you encourage them to do it?

100%. To

take on the path that you've taken?

Just, like, Bella can do what she wants.

Like, she's nine months old now, but I'll encourage her- So that will

disappear like that

Yeah.

And, and, like, for

me, encourage her to do whatever she's happy with.

I think, did we not learn during COVID, like, go chase whatever you love.

The mon- Set, set aside money for them for the moment.

If you, like, if you love something, you can make money out of it.

You, like, it will eventually come.

I, I agree with that, but also, probably to answer your question, probably

selfish from my side, I would love my kids to be part of my business.

Same.

But as, you know, Darcy grows up, as Phoenix grows up, and, you know, Juniper's

just sort of hard to see where, like, she wants to go 'cause she's nine months old.

But I, I see Darcy and I see Phoenix, and I think if I was to

put a bet on one of them putting a tool belt on, it'd be Phoenix.

Mm-hmm.

Like, Darcy, he's interested, but he's not, like, interested.

Mm. Like, Phoenix watches, like, building shows on YouTube.

Like, he loves it.

Yeah.

And you, you can see it from a young age.

And I, I wouldn't be pressuring... I wouldn't say, "Darcy, mate, you gotta come

into the family business." I'd be like, "The, the door's open if you wanna learn."

That's like to anyone.

It's so, it's like anyone that wants a job or an apprentice- Yeah

they... I don't look at my daughter any different.

But

to a- If, if, if to answer your question really simply, I would, I

would say it's a great opportunity to learn something really practical,

which I think is gonna transcend any changes in our work environment.

Yeah.

So I think knowing how to build things is such a...

Lost- I'm trying to think of the word ... lo- lost

skill ... Like, such a lost skill.

Like, the, like, to be able to work around my own property and be able to

just do stuff- Like, like I haven't been on the tools for a long time, and

this weekend I just knew what I needed to do to form up a curved bit of form

work for where we're putting a spa

Makes you a really useful husband too.

Well, you know, and-

Yeah.

Tick.

Yeah.

Total- absolutely.

Isn't it, what's, what's old saying, a builder never finishes

their own house, so- Useful

husband or useful wife as well.

Or wife.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But yeah, to answer your question, I would, I would, I would say

it's a great trade to get into- Mm ... or, or trades are a good

thing to get into, if they want to.

Oh, like, like Noah, like when she's older, like she, she wants to do some...

If she wants some money, she can go fill a skip on the weekend for it.

Like, you'll learn, like- Yeah,

my daughters get on the work site.

I think that's, I think that's really important- Yeah ... that, like she'll

have an opportunity that most won't, that she can come work for me as a

younger kid to earn a bit of money.

Yeah.

Very good.

Yeah, I've got some

ripping photos of my kids on their dad's work site, like using drop saws-

Yeah ... and all sorts of cool stuff.

Like,

yeah.

Next school holidays when she wants to.

Yeah, that's the luxury we have.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah.

Totally.

Yeah.

There's a, was it P- was it Pat Rafter, some tennis player who said

that he would never ever let his children play tennis because he

was so scarred by the tennis world.

So different, totally different job.

That's selfish.

Like, let your

child have your own- their own ambitions and support whatever they want.

Yeah.

Yeah, but I guess,

I guess that's a reflection of his experience.

Yeah.

He had a very bad experience.

The, the, the reflection of my experience as a trade is really positive.

Yeah.

But I also can understand that-

Other builders, maybe not so much.

Absolutely, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

It's

interesting too that you both have got sep- you've got different training, and

Jackson as well, you've got different training coming into being builders.

Yeah.

So you've got a degree in marketing and business.

Science.

You've got a science degree.

And, and

I, and I finished a carpentry apprenticeship too.

And did carpentry.

Jack- Jackson's a yacht builder.

Jackson had a completely different career before he started a building business.

Did

you know that?

No.

Yeah.

He w- he was building, he was sailing and building yachts and stuff.

Wow.

He's like a

champion, um, sailor.

He looks like it.

He does.

Um,

but I think it's interesting that, that the three of you- His shirt

tucked in ... have had these different pathways to get to where you are.

Um, and perhaps some of the other builders out there, they come straight

out of school, they leave school early, they do their apprenticeship, and they

don't have any other life experience apart from on a building site- Yeah

and then they have to run a business.

And things like superannuation and tax and work cover once you start

employing people- Yeah ... like all of that is like s- so

overwhelming for someone- Yeah, public liability, contracts, work insurance.

Yep.

You know, even as-

It's a freaking nightmare ... yeah, and

even, uh, a few years ago I got caught out by not paying, uh, Leave Plus.

Yeah Uh, which was like a, that's a, it's a- Superannuation.

It's a- Not a ... it's a good

one.

It's, it's a long service leave- Long service leave,

yeah ... for your onsite team.

Oh, yeah.

'Cause I got given some bad advice saying, "Oh, you don't need to pay

it. It's a, it's a, that's a union thing. That's a commercial thing."

Ended up costing me 25 grand 'cause I had to back pay it all.

Yeah.

So, like there's all these

lessons that you've gotta

learn

as a- There's no, you don't, you don't finish your apprenticeship,

started building business and here's a checklist of-

No ... what you're gonna worry about.

I think it's a major failing of the industry.

Not only is the industry like, you know, the job sites, there's not

enough oversight on, on the job sites, although some builders will

say there's too much, um, there's not enough training for the young people

coming through and starting businesses.

Yeah, agree.

But, but is- Yeah, but- That's a failing

... but also there's a failing that, uh, they're not, like learn- like, uh,

carpenters aren't taught to teach.

Yeah.

I think there's a number of failings.

At the end of the day, like, is it their problem to teach us how to run a business?

Someone's got to flag it somewhere.

Because once, like, I don't know if kids who go and get their trades understand

that they are, like, they're essentially not gonna be full-time employees, they're

gonna be running their own businesses.

Mm.

Once they finish their trade, that's their pathway.

I reckon there's

a moving trend.

I reckon more people are seeing that running a business isn't as attractive

and sexy as what they once thought.

They, they, especially in building, they, they love being on site,

they love working with tools.

The reality is, if you're a construction business and you're the, the, the

builder now, you don't do that.

That, that, days, those days are gone.

Yeah.

So you're, you're, you're more- You're, yeah, you're HR, you're

marketing, you're the estimator, you're, you're wearing multiple hats.

And whilst you might be working on the business doing these things, you,

you still have to be across them all.

And not only do you have to be across all of that, now you guys have got

to be legit movie stars as well.

You've got to be

constantly selling yourself.

Well, you've got to be social media.

Yeah,

absolutely.

There's a

whole raft of skills you've got to have.

That's, that's, that's the, yeah, but that's the thing.

You, you have to do everything.

Yeah.

And, and, and the time that it takes, you just don't get to build.

You know what, there, uh, like, probably to

answer your q- uh, probably go, circle back to your first question.

Like, I had a moment, like probably a couple of months

ago, and thought to myself,

like the idea of going back to something much more simpler- Mm ... at, at that

particular point in time was appealing.

Like putting a tool belt back on and a- physically being part

of putting the things together.

Mm. Like, I really miss that.

Yeah.

Like, really miss it.

Now I've got, fortunately, I've, I can kind of scratch that itch on the weekend

at my own home, but I've also got a family that I want to spend some time with.

Yeah.

And I've got to give my wife some time to go and do what she wants

to do, and all those things.

But, you know, th- th- th- I was seriously thinking, "Oh, could

I, could I go back on the tools?"

Mm. "Could I go back on the tools 20 or 30 hours a week and then do 20

hours of, like, all the other stuff that needs to happen?" I quickly

realized that that's probably not gonna, that's probably not reasonable.

Yeah.

But, like, it seemed like a really nice idea.

Seemed a lot simpler.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right, who do you think is the biggest villain in the

building industry right now?

Do you think it's the volume builders- ... who are cutting corners?

Is it the banks who are tightening lending?

Or is it councils and regulators?

Is there a, is there a fourth?

I can see Matt just- I had a great answer ... faces lighting

up.

Please.

I might get sued if I have.

If I say, is there a fourth?

Who do you feel, who makes it hardest for you?

Who

makes it harder?

Okay.

Government.

So- Government, government, government, government.

So is it, is it the banks?

Is it the volume builders?

Uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sit on the volume builders thing for a second.

Yeah.

I, I don't think they're the villain.

No.

I actually think that they are just a product of a

competitive free market economy.

Mm-hmm.

Because people want homes, and they exist because they offer

a product in the environment.

So I don't think it's the volume builders.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and I don't think it's the banks.

And I don't think it's the councils.

I think it's all of them poured into a big bucket, and it all impacts,

like, the challenges of being-

It's legislation.

Yeah.

So it comes down from councils to- Yeah ... be- c- I think

councils, they all play their role.

Like, I think we gotta go back to, uh, like, we don't, huh, like banks,

but at the end of the day, their goal is to be profitable, isn't it?

Yeah.

So they're there to make as much money as possible.

Yeah.

And de-risk.

So- And, and

also, so you, you, you also got to remember that the people that are

the beneficiaries of banks are the shareholders of the banks- Yeah

which might be you, which might be you, which might be me.

So we don't want the banks to go bankrupt.

Yeah.

So we sit here complaining about them making it hard to borrow

money or raising interest rates.

They need to make money so we all exist.

Yeah.

'Cause if the bank collapses, like, you think a couple of building

companies go under as an issue?

Wait till a fucking one of the- There's a big- ... big fours go under.

Yes Yeah.

Well, oh,

havoc was America.

What was it?

Um- Uh- Was JP- not JP Morgan, was it?

I

think it was.

Oh, the one that triggered- Yeah.

It c-

... the global financial crisis?

Yeah, exactly.

That, that is exactly what happened.

So- Yeah ... so I, I, I, government, councils are just another

extension of government now.

Yeah.

And councils are, I think, the biggest barrier in building

more homes and better homes.

Yeah.

I think they are the biggest- They certainly

slow the process down.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just think legislation.

I think legislation is just- In what way?

Everything.

Like, what, what way isn't it a barrier at the moment?

There's so many rules and regulations and handbrakes and, um, lack of common sense.

So I know we predominantly speak about Victoria, but just, for example,

we've got changes coming this year on multiple fronts from how contracts

are set to minimum financial... What's the thing about- Ah, yeah.

You gotta have a, um, um, a cert- Yeah, so insurance.

And, n- we still don't even know what's happening.

Mm. And they're just changing things because they've realized they

fucked it up and they're reactive rather than being proactive.

It's like the volume build- It's like the, the BPC right now.

To m- get more builders in, they're making an online test

compared to an in-person interview.

That has a flow on effect in 15 years when you've got shit builders

who shouldn't have been in the industry, and now we've gotta fix it.

Or we have a look at them with the lack of issues around mold and condensation

and how reactive and slow they are with that, and I can guarantee you, just

like we had the cladding levy, we're gonna have a mold and condensation levy.

Like- Th- that's why I say they're the barriers because they're not

just the short-term barriers, they're the long-term barriers as well Well,

and it's also really easy for us to sit here and say that this is

where the problems are without, like, the context of what the

decision-makers, uh, what information they're using to make decisions.

But from where I'm sitting, my, my opinion is that they're looking at all

the different problems individually, and rather than zooming out-

Yes ... well, not problems, but all the things that they're implementing.

They're doing, "All right, we're gonna fix insurance, and we're gonna make

the contract a bit better, and we're gonna do this, and we're gonna do that."

But they're not... They're, they're looking at all as individual

things, rather than zooming out and looking at it all together.

Have we,

like, have we not looked at this in a global perspective right now

and not to into, like, worldwide eco- economy, um, economics?

Haven't we seen China have zoomed out for the last 30 years to see a long-term

play on renewables, investing in their own country, making sure they're

stockpiled with the r- right, the right, uh, resources and minerals and that?

And at the moment, are they complaining of what's really

happening too much in the world?

Where everyone else is so reactive right now with what is happening,

and at the hands of one person or two people who could shut down the Strait.

Uh, it, this goes to the exact point about, uh, the economy and

politics in Australia is zoom out, like, what is the end game?

And Jesse Clark raised that with us on a podcast, probably by the time

you listen to this, that's out.

But like, what are we trying to achieve?

Yeah.

And at the moment, there's no goals.

Let's just put things in, in here, and let's change that and do that.

Just, just for

context around that, w- uh, we were talking with Jesse Clark about, like,

what the perfect house is, and so what is it that we're trying to aspire to?

And from w- our talking with Jesse, there wasn't, like, this perfect avatar

home or the perfect example of a home that the NCC was trying to achieve.

Mm. It was just, "Oh, well, what change can we make this

time?" Without no end goal.

Mm-hmm.

Which I found really challenging.

Now, I'm gonna stop my- self short of saying I think we should turn

ourselves into a communist society.

However...

It's working, though.

I'm not saying.

I'm not not saying that you look at what China's doing, and it's not terrible.

Now, maybe we'll lose some podcast listeners for that, and maybe if we

don't make that a reel- ... 'cause it'll spin itself around the

algorithm, like, flat out.

But, like, we've been doing things a way for a long time, and now we're...

some holes are starting to be exposed- Mm ... and I think we just need to

take stock and have a look at the current state of the world right

now, and, and I don't know, have a think about how we're doing business.

Yeah, and I think, yeah, that's, that's... I don't mean it like there's... But

there's pros and cons to every form of s- government, and I think that you

just gotta look at it as a holistic picture rather than pick and choose

the pieces you wanna take out of it.

Mm-hmm.

Do you guys ever feel because you are so forward-facing, you're -- the Mindful

Builder podcast, you've got Sanctum Homes, which has got a reasonably high

profile on, you know, the interwebs.

You're part of the Sustainable Builders Alliance.

Matt, you guys have got really a quite, uh ... Um, sort of you're well-known

in this pocket of the industry.

Do you ever feel pressured to, like, be perfect?

Nah, not at all.

Yeah.

Oh, I'm the owner.

I knew you were gonna say that, both of you.

Yeah.

Oh.

I knew it.

Like, I'm not allowed to fuck up because I'm Hamish from Sanctum Homes.

I make

mistakes every day.

And Matt's

like, "What?" And I just don't care.

I'm normal.

I'm a, I'm human.

I, I, I don't know about you, but, like, I feel no pressure to put out content.

I do it 'cause I enjoy it.

Um, we do this because I think we both enjoy it.

Yeah.

Like, I, if I, if, if we both wanted to stop for a month, we would.

Mm. I don't feel pressure one little bit.

But I think it also goes to something that maybe you and I

talked about in the car earlier on.

Mm. You know, and we won't go into that, but it was, like, we're different

personalities with different backgrounds.

Yeah.

Like, we obviously share really similar views on what we're

trying to do with this podcast.

Mm. Um.

Huh.

F- for me, yeah, definitely, I feel a legitimate pressure.

Where's the pressure you feel?

Um, but I think the pressure's more my perceived pressure of what other

people- Yeah ... expect from me.

Uh, I mean, n- this, I feel like I'm at, like, a psychologist right now.

Jeez, the couch is changing a lot today.

We are on the couch.

Oh, wow.

No, no, I, I, I genuine- I genuinely do.

And, and I think m- more recently I've certainly, uh, had a really big think

about, like, what my business goals are.

Mm-hmm.

And they've definitely changed.

Uh, you know, before it was all growth on growth on growth on growth.

And certainly since, you know, being friends with guys like Jackson

and seeing what he's doing with his business is really inspiring.

And I'm, "Well, maybe I can do that." And I reckon I could.

I reckon I got the right personality to do it.

I don't wanna build 100 homes a year.

But I, I guess it's aspiring to something.

Yeah, I know, I know, I know.

And whether it's 100 homes or whether it's 10, 10 million turnover.

Yeah.

What- whatever it is.

I, I'm, I'm really taking stock m- r- more recently around what's enough for me.

Mm. And feeling comfortable with that.

And rather trying to ignore the noise of what my perceived

expectations from others is.

What do you think people perceive you as?

Well, I'd hope that people see me as a nice person.

Mm. Uh, and a real person as well.

I'd say 100%.

But, but also- Yeah ... you know, I think there is, like, people ... I,

I, I don't know because every, every one of our listeners probably

has a different perception of me, and they have a different

possession of-- perception of you.

So I, I mean, I think we have a role to play in helping improve the industry,

but I don't necessarily think that we need to build 20 homes a year and

turn over $15 million to still have the same impact that we're gonna have.

And this is something that I've been realizing recently.

Like I reckon I could build two homes a year, turn over $3.5

million a year, and I still feel I could have the same impact- Yeah

that if I built 20 homes a year and turned over $20 million.

And that's something that I've been, you know, working through with myself

over the last, you know, little bit.

It's t- 'cause I've got a young family, I'm 43, you know, by the...

I was talking about it before.

By the time Junie's 10, I'm gonna be in my 50s.

Quite Gerald.

I wanna be there for her.

I wanna be available for her.

Yeah.

So I wanna just find that balance.

Mm-hmm.

And the balance might be that I build seven homes a year.

Mm-hmm.

And that's great.

So I, I'm really trying to work out for me, not necessarily what other people are.

Mm-hmm.

And it's, that's challenging.

But, but

there's a pr- So the pressure's coming from you, not from others.

My pressure is coming from my thoughts of what other people think I should be.

When really it should be what I think I should be.

And the, I'm assuming those people who think what you should be, you couldn't

give two fucks what they probably think either, but you, you kind of-

I, I do, but I shouldn't, but I do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's what I'm saying.

They're not like- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... it's not like it's not your wife

or- But I also feel like I'm at that ripe age of where I'm probably

due for like a midlife crisis,

so.

Hamish is gonna end up in a convertible Audi next week driving around.

But

I think the 40s is a real age of reckoning for a lot of people.

I know it was for me.

Yes.

Yeah.

Um, early 40s you sort of, you, it's like a, a bump in the road where,

you know, you're 20 years away from being 20, um, and something happens.

Something happens about the way you think about the rest of your life.

Yeah.

You, you all of a sudden realize how much your decisions matter

and how close the future is- Yeah

and how much- Yeah ... the people around you matter.

But I think also- And, um-

... like on that, like you, you also, and, and if I'm... How old are you?

36? 37? Yeah, 36.

36. Okay.

Ooh.

Th- 36.

Yeah.

I'm thinking more about my mortality now.

Mm. Probably for a couple of reasons.

One, 'cause I've got young kids.

Mm-hmm.

But two, that I've got aging parents.

Yeah.

So I'm at this really- It's becoming real ... interesting, like- That's

right ... juncture in my life where my family's growing and, you know,

I've got this magic, amazing future with them, but then I've probably

got a shorter time with my family.

Yeah.

With my parents.

And I haven't really thought about it until recently, and I think

it's 'cause I'm getting older and I'm seeing my parents age.

Mm-hmm.

Which is what... Oh, fuck.

We're getting really deep.

How are we?

That's my biggest fear- Wow ... of anything But I, but I didn't have

these thoughts when I was in my 30s.

I'm having them more now.

No.

And maybe it is this sort of natural time- 10 years ago our

parents were still, like-

Yeah

... they were still completely the way we remembered them.

Your, your- Yeah ... parents are always

invincible.

Yeah.

You always think that they're invincible.

But, but- Like nothing can happen to them

... but you get to the point now, and I think as I get older, where

you realize that they're not.

Well, my father passed away, uh, nearly five years ago, and I cannot

believe it has been five years.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Yeah.

It's absolute... I cannot believe it.

And, um, yeah But to me, he was poof- Yeah ... as dads are.

But, but I guess that's the point I'm trying to make, is like, um, right now

I'm trying to work out, like, what is the right thing for me and my family

and for me at this particular time.

Mm-hmm.

But still scratch the itch of my entrepreneurialias-

entrepreneurialism- Mm-hmm

and, you know, how motivated I am and how much I do want to succeed.

Mm. So yeah, does that answer your question?

Mm. You go.

I think so.

It probably does, yeah.

But I, I, want to hear Matt, though, because Matt is, is a slight... Well,

we're a similar age- Yeah ... but slightly different life stage.

And different

attitudes as well.

So I'm just like, I just don't care what people think.

Like I've, I've played that card in my head too many times, and I know

that ultimately the people that I care most about love me, so therefore

people outside of that, I, like, I really couldn't give two shits what

people write on an Instagram comment.

In fact, I have no- I love trolling them back and telling how life, shit

their life must be if they want to sit there and Instagram comment.

Having a crack.

Like, let's be serious here.

I think, uh, I, I know I'm outspoken.

I know I don't have a filter.

Um, I really don't care.

But I, I probably won't say something unless I can have a, like a backup

with a conversation and be honest.

Like I will sit there and have that.

But I, I don't know, I've just never really cared too much about my perception.

I don't know.

Mm-hmm.

I

don't know why.

I think the idea that you're talking about, Hamish, where you

know you shouldn't care, but you still do, I think is something

that lots and lots of people- Mm

struggle with.

Mm. Um, and I heard someone say over the weekend, um, on a podcast or on

a reel or something, um, "The longest distance you travel is the distance

between your head and your heart." And I was like, that is really profound.

Yeah, really profound.

And I'm gonna, I'm gonna sit with that for a minute because I feel like

the things you know and the things you feel can be very different.

Yeah.

Um, and I, I just felt like that was, yeah, something that I'm gonna carry.

Yeah, I like that.

Yeah.

For me, life's too short to worry about what other people think.

Like, uh, like I, I was out for dinner last night with, with my wife and my,

my best closest group of friends that we caught up from a park, went with the kids,

and then went out for dinner after it.

Like to me, like I got them, I'm sweet.

I've got my family.

Like I'm cool.

You're very lucky that you've got a

close group of people like that.

Yeah, I've got an

extremely close, like, like- It's very lucky, and not everyone gets that ... like

extremely... Like I know I'm very sheltered in so many aspects like that.

But I'm, um... the, the friendship group that I have and my

family, like it's, I've never-

You're safe.

I, I'm more than safe.

And yeah, I've had ups and downs, like my cousin took her life when, while I was 20.

Like I've seen, I've seen the, what the, the turmoil that that can cause,

and I think I, that's why for some, for me, it's like I'm, like you never

know what's gonna happen tomorrow.

Mm. Um, and so for me, I'm, I just kind of try to live every day as is.

I'm not perfect.

Like at the moment, I can't put my phone down.

Like I, I really wanna get better at coming home and switching off.

That's, that might take me five years But you, you sort of

roll with those sort of things.

Mm-hmm.

Have you always lived in Melbourne?

Yeah, I've, I grew up in Williamstown and I, yeah, so I went, I've

grown from, lived in the same house pretty much my whole life.

And you?

You've always lived in Melbourne?

I

was born not far from here.

Oh, yeah?

Right.

In Adelaide Hills.

You're

actually home.

Yeah, I'm home.

I'm home.

That's nice.

I moved here when I was two though.

Oh.

I did live through the 1983 Ash Wednesday fires though.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

Yeah, they burnt right up to our family's back fence.

Wow.

Yeah, I got caught up there with me and my sister.

Wow.

Uh, my older sister, and dad was in town, couldn't get up the hill.

Goodness.

Interesting.

Yeah, hectic.

There

you go.

History.

Hectic, yeah.

The reason I ask is because I've moved around a lot in my life, so you've

got this established place to belong.

Yeah.

I've moved around a lo- I still have a place to belong, but it's not the same.

Like, I, like, I lived in Williamstown.

I play, still play footy in Williamstown.

Like, I go down on the weekend by myself- Mm

and I can run into, I don't know, 50 people.

I g- I, like, going down to a supermarket, I, I will know

someone, I'll run into someone.

Yeah.

Like, that's... I, I, I'm very sheltered in that aspect.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, in saying that though, I grew up, we, I moved

to Park Orchards when I was two.

Mm-hmm.

I now live in Warrandyte, which is the suburb over.

Mm-hmm.

So I've spent most of my life, 41 years- Yeah

... in, like, a small pocket of Victoria.

Yeah.

I, I think the other thing is I'm not afraid to ask for help.

Like, I've, I have no problem- That is key ... I have no problem calling on

someone, like, "Hey, mate, I, I need to have a chat." I've got, I, I- Absolutely

key ... I learned

to give up that form of, like, um-

Doesn't mean you've failed

what's the,

what's, what... Yeah, no, what's the word I'm after here?

Like, I'm never too proud to just be like, "Yeah, I'm not doing well." I, and I think

that maybe is a by-product of my cousin taking her life, that I just was like-

Mm ... and not, not that I have mental health issues or anything like that,

it's just like, I'll just call someone.

I don't really care if they don't wanna hear it and- Yeah ... yeah.

Your, your

inhibitions are low-

Yeah ... I would say.

Yeah, and the people I go to, I really respect their opinion.

It's a good thing.

So, um- Is that why you call me all the time?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, but it's true.

Like, I, like, like, let's be honest, like, I will call you if I've, if I, that

you, we have a, we, I need some advice.

I've got no problem.

And you m- I, I don't think there'd be a day

that goes by, except for the weekend, that we probably don't have a conversation.

Mm-hmm.

But then there might be text messages over the weekend.

Oh, so, yeah, I haven't told you this, so we're putting, we're, uh, bathing

Noah, and my phone went off, and I was like, "Oh, it's on s- I've, I have

a se- special setting at night to- That actually only filters my family.

And for some fucking reason, you've somehow made it that filter And

Nicole's... I'm like, "Who is it?" And she goes, "It's your boyfriend."

So I want to know how you've got through it.

That's like which one?

He got through the family filter.

I

don't know how you got

through it, but 'cause I didn't.

I just went, "Sorry."

Maybe, maybe Claud, maybe Claud realizes that I'm like a part of your family.

Ah.

I

think, I think your phone, uh, recognizes how many phone calls

happen between both phones.

Yeah, he must be.

He must be.

And it's like priority.

But I think going back to your sort of original question on perception

as well is, like, one thing that I've really realized recently is

we have a voice, and that voice is, um, listened to by a lot of people.

Yeah.

And that needs to be res- I've lear- I need to respect that.

Mm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I, I, I, I've only starting to understand that something I can say could

be quite harmful to other people as well.

Like, I've called people out on social media recently for really

dumb stuff, and probably been like, "Should I have approached it that way?"

Mm. Mm. So I mean, y- you're, you're probably in a sim- similar situation

now, I think, with your podcast and you putting yourself out there.

I think there is a res- level of responsibility now.

Mm. Mm. And that actually doesn't burden me, but I s- definitely feel, uh, like

a huge amount of imposter syndrome.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, you know, I am not... Like, we can see the numbers of how

many download the podcast is.

Mm. Like, I, you know, uh, we're- I can also see how many people

are coming to the SBA events.

Like, I know that what we're doing is having an impact, but I still get

caught out and I still get caught off guard when I get a text message or a

Instagram, like a DM or something- Mm-hmm

saying, "Hey, I've just started listening to the podcast. I've gone back to the

start, and thanks for sharing your, uh, story about your anxiety." Mm. Or little

things like that, and I'm like, "Oh, fuck. That's right." Like- I try to re-

... people are listening to what we're saying.

I try to reply to everyone, so please don't just flood my DMs.

But I, I actually, whether it's a like or something, or, or, or

thanks for listening, I always-

Yeah

... it's one thing I've just always wanted to try to do is at least,

it might be two weeks later, I will always try to get back to you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No matter what.

Although, The Mindful Builder Podcast - Has been a bit slow

it is a bit slow sometimes, 'cause obviously we got our

own social media that we run.

I actually find that.

If I re- if I reply to The Mindful Builder Podcast, like story, I don't get a reply.

I've actually got to go directly to one of you.

Yeah.

If you want,

yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I've, or I'm actually trying to decrease the amount I actually

spend on social media anyway.

But, but we've, we have tried to, and, and I guess by choice, we've

tried to outsource The Mindful Builder Podcast marketing to Gian.

Yeah.

Just so we can- Have a life

You can only do so much, right?

Yeah, I mean, like- Yeah

... we're here for two days now, right?

Yeah.

So it's taking time out of our businesses and our family and stuff like that.

Trying to then manage another social media page is- Mm ... challenging.

Yeah.

So we do apologize in advance.

If, if you ever wanna ask a question Try and get me or Matt

We'll have a bot that does that pretty soon Or Jess.

Or go, go, or ask-

Or ask Jess.

And then I'll get onto them.

Yeah, thank you.

If it's a polite answer, it's Hamish.

If it's a stubborn, blunt answer, it's me.

I'll always reply and say Hamish at the end of it.

I'm just gonna reply, "You're a fuckwit. No, Hamish." All

right.

Topic pivot.

You mentioned, you, you alluded earlier to a painful client.

Tell us a story about a cl- a really painful, like a client from hell.

I've got two.

Um, one of them I've spoken about on the podcast.

They weren't painful, they were just, I lost control of the project, where...

And that was during COVID and that, like, I had a lot of learnings from that.

I had a painful client when I was, just before I actually started

my own business, I was sort of project managing, site managing for

someone, and the client was a...

I don't want to get canceled for what I'm about to say.

He sucked.

Um, parents were building something for him out in the

backyard, spoiled little asshole.

Um, there was one day where he didn't like the glass screen that

we'd put in, like the shower screen.

And we're like, "Well, that's what you paid for, that's what

you've quoted, that's signed off."

And then he, um, next day we come in, it's all scratched up.

Oh, no.

And we're like, "Did you do this?" He goes, "Don't know what you're

talking about," and just smiled.

And cl- you had no proof it was him.

Oh.

And then, yeah, there was just a lot of stuff that went down- Wow ... and I just,

I... That wa- that was a point where I was like, "Do I want to be a builder?"

'Cause I was just like- Yeah.

I, I'd say there... But having said that, my clients are awesome, though.

We vet them.

Like, we've, as much as, as much as people think that they pick to

build with us, we ultimately pick if we want to build with them.

It's,

it's both ways.

Yeah.

It, it, yeah, it's, it's both ways.

It's, it's a, it's like any relationship.

It's not a one-way highway.

Mm-hmm.

I've had two really notable experiences with clients.

Both of them, I'm so glad that I had.

Both of them almost sent me to the wall.

One of them was with a previous business partner.

Uh, but I was, wow, I was, I was young.

Mm. Like, it would've been 15 years ago, and absolutely mismanaged.

Like, if, if, if I look at, at both of these examples, yes, they

were pains in the ass, but how I managed them was just wrong.

Like, I always lead with emotion, not led, led with like, um,

you know, a rational thinking.

I didn't have s- any systems or processes around anything.

We'd underquoted the job.

I allowed too many things to happen.

You know, one particular client, uh, we went away for a long weekend.

It was a renovation extension.

We rocked up on the Monday, and it was a, it was a long weekend,

and we rocked up, and they were living on site camping on site.

And I'm like, "What the fuck is going on here?" And, like, Hamish

right now would be like, "Get off, this is my building site."

Yeah.

But the Hamish back then is like, "Oh, I really wanna work with these

guys, I really want this job," and like- Yeah ... pandering to them.

You need the money.

You need the money, yep.

Mm-hmm.

So I let it happen.

The biggest clusterfuck- What happened?

... ever.

Just you couldn't get your job done, they're complaining and...

Well, they would, used to walk around the site at night-time, right?

And this, these are the clients that ended up, um, uh, they ended up getting a

hold of a key somehow and locked me out.

Oh.

Yeah.

I've never experienced- Towards the end of the job, yeah.

A- and again, absolute mismanagement of- from my end.

Like, they were pains in the ass.

But were you slow?

Were you delivering everything on time and on-

No, and look, there was d- there was defects.

I'm not gonna say that we were innocent here.

Like, there was defects in the project,

but- Every project has defects

... but every project has defects, and we didn't have the ability

to go back and fix them.

Like, they weren't letting us in the house to fix them.

Anyway- This is another reason- I am so grateful for

those two experiences, though.

This is

another reason that, like, we never take, like, ABIC contracts, is I feel

that when I have an ABIC contract, I'm not as close with the client because we-

Yeah.

That's- A what

contract?

An

ABI- an architectural contract.

I feel that we don't have a, the relationship is still amazing, but

it's just not as, um- 'Cause you,

' cause everything has to go back through the architect.

Yeah.

Yeah, so j- so we just don't end up getting, chit-chatting as much.

Yeah.

Which is, some- there's efficiencies within that.

But the, the relationship, it's d- it's just not from saying it's

8 out of 10 to a 10 out of 10.

Yep.

Like, it's still, there's nothing that's gone wrong, it's just th- they're

probably not coming over for dinner.

Well, our, our process now, these two clients that I've talked about before

would never get through the first phase.

Well, that was my next question.

Do you have, like, a culling process?

You do, don't you, for new leads?

Oh, I reckon at least two people a week get culled.

And I, I think, I think that's a really essential part of any business,

is because you can waste so much money and time and effort and anxiety

and stress on the wrong client.

Yeah.

And

this was, I was taught this very early on.

A business I worked for, nothing to do with the construction industry, I was

straight out of uni, and the boss I worked for had a cull the wankers policy.

Write that down.

And that's, and he would, on purpose, um, not work for people who he deemed

would be too stressful, waste of time, because they end up costing

you.

Re- remind me to show you, if we've got time later on today,

to show you our ACI agreement.

Like, the, one of the fir- like, second or third lines in there

says, uh, um, "At Sanctum Homes, we have a no dickhead policy." Yeah.

Yep.

And congratulations, you're not a dickhead.

Brilliant.

Uh, so we usually have this, like...

And, and I'm us- like, if you're a client and you hear me say, "We

have a no dickhead policy"- Uh, you know that you guys have passed.

Because I'm usually not even getting to the point where people even have-

You won't even get past the first phone call ... that we have, yeah.

And look, some people aren't gonna wanna work with me, and some people

aren't gonna wanna work with Matt.

That's fine.

And that's fine.

Mm. And I'm not gonna wanna work with some people either.

Mm. And I think that is really healthy- Mm-hmm ... for any building

project- Mm ... from both sides.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, definitely.

Definitely.

Uh, fixed price contracts.

Good conversation.

Oof.

Right now, in- Are

they dead?

Uh- No

... I don't think they're dead.

However-

Banks need to agree to 'em

... but, but, yeah, 'cause I think, I don't think they'll ever be

dead because the banks need them.

Mm-hmm.

But I th- and you know, Matt and I had a chat about this on our weekly goss

the other day, or was it a podcast?

It was on the flight this morning.

On the flight this morning, it was.

It's probably all four.

You guys talk so much, it all just meshes into one.

It's probably all four of them.

Uh, we, particularly right now, so right now we are in April in 2026, and there is

a war on in Iran, and prices are sort of a little bit fluctuating at the moment.

So we are signing fixed price contracts.

Mm-hmm.

However, we are putting in more provisional sums and prime cost items.

Mm-hmm.

And we are front-loading some of our payments more- Mm ... so we can

then reconcile those provisional sums and prime cost items early.

Yeah.

And that might be that we're paying deposits- Mm-hmm ... so

they can buy material.

Yeah.

Or we're getting the material and storing it at our- Yeah ... uh, shed at home.

Yeah.

So has your cashflow changed in that way?

Like, are you paying out more earlier to secure- Yeah

Yeah

... but that's- ... to secure stuff?

But that's why we- we're asking the clients for more

money.

Yeah.

Yeah, so it's more upfront.

We don't, I don't run a standard payment, method A payment ever.

No.

From the contract perspective.

Yeah.

I, cost plus, I haven't done one.

I would, I'd be open to them with the right client.

Yeah.

There's got to be a high level of trust.

So we would run the same process of estimating all the way through

as if it was a fixed contract, and then turn it into a cost plus.

Well, I

think legally you've got to do that anyway.

I, I just do, I think that- Yeah ... we'd want to make sure

that we're, this is where we're at.

Um, look, I'd probably, then they need to understand that, um, the hard

thing is explaining if defects, that's all billable hours, like tho- those

items that you probably don't want to pay for still get paid for because

they're not hidden in the cost anymore.

Yeah.

Um, I, I, I think it's, a- again, like passive house, it's an education thing.

So going to o- to mum and dad families that, like, "Yeah, you've

got to, it's a cost plus, it could move up and down." Like...

Co- cost plus with the right builder, right designer, and right

client is the perfect way to do it.

It's the fairest way.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely fairest way.

But

fairest is never the...

Do clients go for it?

Uh, look, we- There's too mu- they feel

there's too much risk, and there's not enough- Yeah ... evidence in

the past to suggest they work.

We, uh- And they

don't trust builders as a general sort of- Yep, which is,

which is, which is fair Yeah,

yeah

which is fair.

Yeah, I understand that.

Which is why I feel like, um- I mean, 100% of problems always

come down to communication.

Yeah.

And it's about setting your clients up with the understanding and the

knowledge of the reasons why you're suggesting something to contract on.

And you gotta think about, if a builder goes bankrupt on your

project because of shit cashflow or prices go up, no one wins.

Mm-hmm.

You will end up paying a lot more than what your contract price is.

So my advice to any homeowner who's listening to this is, like, if a

builder suggests to you, "Hey, we're gonna put these provisional sums

and prime costs in," and there is a legitimate reason why, listen to them.

Mm-hmm.

Because they're making those suggestions for the, for the project- Mm

for the, for the betterment, I don't know if that- Better, yeah ... that's

even a word of, of the project.

Yeah.

Um, and to make sure that, you know, your builder doesn't go bankrupt.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That, yeah.

All right, now I should ask you a building science question.

Yeah, let's go for it.

We've not touched on one single building science question today.

Fine, that's good.

Um- I'll just

defer all this to Matt.

Cut it.

Thanks.

I'll just defer all this to Matt.

Um-

EMFs Okay, so

shall we go- EMFs, EMFs Who's h- toe the... Hey, so I'm, yeah,

I'm studying EMFs at the moment.

I am on the fence, I am open and I am curious.

And that's the way it's gonna stay for now.

Um- What is, who's got the lowest blow door test score?

Matt.

Okay, that was easy.

What was it?

. 24 on a very- Is it your house?

Yeah, on a very tight volume too.

Your house?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it only had 300 and something cubic meters of air move through.

Yeah.

That's small.

I don't know if I've ever gotten a three.

You what, what?

I don't know if I've ever gotten under three.

Our average is about .34.

J- I don't know why, it literally always is .34.

I, I don't ask why.

I walk in four projects in a row with just the same number.

Wow.

We, we're consistently in the three, uh, like high threes.

Mm-hmm.

But I don't think we've ever... Maybe we've- High, we've still got one ... maybe

we've got, maybe we've got one blow a door, but it was, uh, like in the twos,

but it was high twos and it might have been, like pre-plaster or something.

And then our final result was like- Yeah ... .35 or something like that.

But- I don't think I'll beat my house ever.

It's stupid.

I don't know, you don't need to get that airtight.

No.

No.

You

don't.

No,

no.

And what about failures?

Like, what about building science failures?

Have you had, um, you know, a condensation issue that you didn't expect?

Is this pre or post building science career?

Probably pre.

Like, what's the, what's the- I had a, I had

a roof leak ... what's your

biggest, like, defect or probably failure?

Oh, ac-

oh, I haven't had ma- I've actually haven't had any crazy, crazy defects, but

we had one, this is a weird one actually, which I know why it was happening.

Um, there was just a little bit of mold in certain spots around the exhaust fan

in the, in the bathroom on, on a house.

It was upstairs.

It had 2.4 ceiling height.

Um, and we had an e- a, a standard exhaust fan that went straight

up through the roof and outside.

Like, so very sh- like 300 ml of- Space to move outside.

Mm-hmm.

What we would find is this ring of, uh, of mold.

And what I had worked out is because it was an aluminum tube that went through

the roof, it was actually condensating.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And because it was a flat roof, where it taped, for some reason, it, the,

the, the, well, like, I don't know why it was condensating, but the metal was

condensating, and it just had found its way onto the plaster, even through

the insulation, and was dripping.

So that was a re- Back then, if I didn't know what I knew, I would

have never have worked it out.

But that's pretty much nearly as bad as I've had it.

I wonder

if that's gonna start happening now with the exhaust fans

having to be ducted to outside.

We're having- I think the

client, well, the client wasn't running it.

They're like, "Oh, we're gonna turn it on if we want to." I'm like, "Well,

that's also a part of the problem." But- Okay ... I don't, we, if we ever

just do an exhaust fan now, we have it on a timer switch, which I now

think is part of the code anyway.

Mm-hmm.

Just re- We've just, we literally just- Interesting ... finished a

rectification where, um, we, we had a shower base fail, and we think

it was an old mud brick house.

So that was your, your job?

One of our, yeah, yeah,

yeah.

Yeah.

But it was a job that we, we picked up.

Yeah, can, won't talk about the details too much, but yeah,

not a normally job we'd do.

Yeah.

But I, I suspect it was water coming in from the outside.

It was an old mud brick home, and the drainage was shit.

But what it did do, it, it exposed something that we did, which, which,

you know, if I was to do it again, it was to code, but I wouldn't do it again.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and yeah, we, we got in there, we fixed a shower base,

uh, and we owned that part of it.

Said, "Look, I think this is where it's coming from.

I think this is where the water's coming from.

I've got absolutely no way of proving it.

I don't think the shower base has failed.

But what we're gonna do is we're gonna fix this, but any works outside

that we're gonna rectify will have to be, we'll have to charge you for."

Mm-hmm.

So I thought that was a fair and equitable way of treating it.

Mm-hmm.

So- Client was happy with that?

Yeah.

They seemed pretty happy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We've also got a roof leak on a, on a, on a, um, a roof leak.

A, we've got a deck over a, um, habitable space with, and the deck's on pedestals.

Yeah.

And there's this tiny leak.

You can't find it?

Uh, we think we know where it is now.

Uh, it's nine years on.

Mm. So nine years on.

Can, can you pressur- pressurize the house with a blower door

test, put some soapy water and see if it bubbles from the outside?

Oh, mate, this, we're talking about a project I did nine years ago.

I know, but the

pressure would push the bubbles, the foam in the corner where

the air was getting through.

Yeah.

Look, we- Depends on

where it's coming through ... we feel, no, we, we, we're pretty

sure we've isolated where it is.

Yeah.

And, and, and it's fine.

Look, I, the, it's a new owner of a, of a home that we've built.

Mm. And he's awesome.

Mm-hmm.

The past client's unreal.

Like- And we- we're, we're, we're showing up and we're, we've- Rooftop decks, man.

Oh ... we- we've identified where it is, and it's a small section of the

waterproofing which we think might ha- just over time has just degraded.

Mm-hmm.

And it's on certain weather events where the water gets

in, and it's just a small drip.

Lucky there's no plaster that's being impacted.

Mm. It's a timber lined ceiling above it.

See water damage.

Uh, we- so you can see a drip.

Oh.

You can see a drip.

Like, so, so we- we- we're, we're pretty confident we know where that is.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, you know, and I'd say to this guy, ironically now, 'cause we're building

a home just down the other way.

Mm. I'm like, "Even if water was getting through the cladding there now, it's

gonna hit the, the Hero on the sips- Yeah

it's, it's got- The drain is gonna save you.

Oh, you get a... There's always one rain event before you put the roof

on and