On this episode we talk with Caleb Roose from Good Enough Dads about 3 proven ways to build lasting relationships with our kids

On this episode, we talk with our good friend, Caleb Roose,

about three proven ways to build lasting relationships with your kids.

You're listening to the Dudes and Dads podcast, a show dedicated to helping men be better dudes and

dads by building community through meaningful conversation and storytelling.

Now, here are your hosts, Joel Damana and Andy Layman.

Andy, Joel, it's 2024, season six, season six.

Holy Toledo.

Where have the time gone?

Where has the time gone?

Andy, of all the things that I want to do to really kick off the new year,

being across the table from you is at least in the top three.

It's been way too long, Joel.

Way too long.

You were in California and we were away.

And you guys did some stuff.

We did some stuff.

You did some stuff.

Gosh, we went into the site and sound theater in Branson, Missouri, which is amazing.

Branson, Missouri is I like to call it.

Old person Christian Vegas.

It is.

But no, I mean, it was cool.

The show, site and sound show was amazing.

Awesome.

Very cool.

Yeah, we've been away for a little bit, everyone.

And just to be clear, we have missed you.

So here we are for season six, five years at this thing, Andy.

Yes.

Where has the time gone?

I can't even, I don't know.

It's right.

We were, we were such young men when this all started.

And now here now some of us are old.

You have a birthday Monday though.

So just the day after this thing comes out, it's a special one, Andy.

It's the big three one.

No, not really.

That's nice.

No, four, oh, 40 years old.

Or you're as young as I like to call it.

Yeah.

40 years.

Yeah.

And we're excited about it sort of only in that I think we're going to do something.

I'm going to, Jackie asked me what I want to do for my 40th birthday and I said,

I want to spend it with the people that I care about most deeply.

So whether you're aware of that or not, you're part of those plans.

Cool.

Okay.

Great.

Great, great.

Well, Joel, we do have an amazing guest today, but before we get started, I wanted to let you know

that support for this episode comes from Everince Financial, helping members invest in what

lasts through financial services with impact.

More at everince.com/michyanna.

Securities offered through Conquers Financial Group, securities incorporated member,

FINRA, SI, PC.

Joel.

Here we are.

Who's on with this?

Okay.

So I should preface because we just confirmed this before the show.

This episode specifically with this guest specifically has been over two years in the

making, Andy.

Holy moly.

We started a conversation with our good friend, Kille Bruce.

Back in October of 2021, I thought it'd only been a year.

And then Caleb informed me that he looked back on our email thread and was like, no,

no, it's been longer than that.

And that's how time gets away from us these days when we, yeah, just not a sense of, wow,

it's been over two.

So first of all, Caleb, welcome to the show.

Welcome to Dudes and Dads podcast.

Glad to have you here.

Thanks so much for having me.

Yes, Caleb.

Um, Caleb comes to us from it in the great state of California, where as I was sharing before,

I've just spent two weeks out there for the holidays with him.

It was great.

But Caleb, your state messes up all my circadian rhythms.

Uh, no offense, but I am not quite full back.

My, I right now, I couldn't tell you what, like, if I didn't know what time we started

recording, I couldn't tell you what time it is right now within three hours.

I mean, it's, I'm a little bit messed up, but, uh, you know, hopefully, uh, we'll make sense,

as we're communicating tonight on the show.

So, um, the reason we have Caleb on Caleb has, he's, he's, first of all, uh, Caleb is near

and dear to my heart because he works with young adults.

We're going to have him explain all of this.

He works on with, uh, with faith communities and, um, young, young people and helping them

transition through really important, this really important chapter of life.

And I love all of that Caleb.

But I met a few years ago, and this is how we got initially got connected.

A few years ago as I was still in the youth and young adult, uh, pastor gig, uh, and, um,

really got introduced to the work that they're doing and he's going to tell you all about that.

But, uh, that's how it started.

And from that, I was like, this Caleb guy, he's my kind of dude.

I need to talk to him more.

And then I started a podcast, Andy.

And so you said, we said, what better place, what better place.

So here he is, uh, Caleb again, welcome.

Thank you for being here.

We're so, we're so grateful for you taking the time.

Um, first and foremost, as we like to do at every episode when we're welcoming a guest,

we like to get the dad stats as we call it.

So you get to tell us about your, the special people in your life, your family, um, how long,

if you're married, how long, where you're from, all the good stuff that you want to,

whatever you feel is safe to put out on the interwebs and on this podcast would love to hear

more about you.

So take it away.

Yeah, awesome.

Thanks, Joel.

And thanks, Andy, for having me.

And I'm just excited to be in this community of dads that can't believe it's six seasons.

And I'm excited to kick this off with both of you.

Um, season six.

Wow.

Yeah.

And who better to start our season with this?

This is what I also love.

But this all came together.

It's starting season six with Caleb.

It makes total sense.

Total sense.

So yeah, thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Two years in, in making.

Um, yeah.

So I am married to my wife Colleen.

We've been married for over 13 years and we have three kids.

Uh, we go girl, girl, boy.

So it's in their six, four and one years old and, uh, life is full with them.

It's amazing.

Um, challenging and everything in between, which I know everybody listening and you both know.

I know that because I, you know, it is be a dad.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, uh, I think back to gosh, our youngest is seven now and I, but I go back to that stage

that you're talking about right now where I just had a conversation with a dad who had

three, three kids similar to your age and it was a rough conversation.

I think because he just asked me, does it get better?

It's like, Oh, it just gets different.

That's, that's all, you know, um, but you're still in that stage, uh, Caleb with the kids where,

uh, they need a lot from you, right?

They like, they need a lot of that personal interaction, right?

And that's the, uh, you know, um, in terms of like just helping them do basic stuff.

And I will say, uh, Andy got to experience this a little because I have Andy as a friend.

Really one of the reasons Andy is my friend is that his kids are a little,

he's a couple that are a little bit older than mine.

And so he gave me hope for when they started like progressing into their teen years and like

gaining that independence and like, it would like, there was less hand holding.

I said, it is possible.

There is a light at the end of this tunnel.

And so, um, I will, I will just pass that on to you and say, uh, for whatever light you need

at the end of your current tunnel, it's there.

It's there.

It's somewhere, it's somewhere.

So, so, yeah.

So three young, three young kids, um, and, uh, married and all of that,

uh, and, and because you obviously it's clear you're a pretty cool guy,

where, where exactly do you live Caleb?

Yes, I live near Pasadena, California, which is in Southern California.

Um, yeah.

So that's where Matt.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then, uh, Caleb, what, what do you do for a job serve?

Cause I sort of, I sort of tease this at the beginning.

Uh, I, and I'm a big fan, I should just say, I, I get another son super bias.

I'm just a big fan of what Caleb does in the organization he works with because they are

immensely helpful.

So that's my little, that's my little plug for any,

Sure.

Any ministry leaders or people are working with young adults, like it's the real deal,

but tell us, yeah, tell us about your work, where you, where you work, all of that good stuff.

Yeah.

I work at the Fuller Youth Institute, uh, which is a part of Fuller Theological Seminary in

Pasadena, California.

And so the Fuller Youth Institute really focuses on resourcing, uh, youth and young

adult ministry leaders as well, as well as associate pastors and senior pastors, but

about how do you do faithful ministry with young people?

And so my research specifically focuses on ministry with young adults and kind of like

that.

And we're merging adulthood age range of 23, uh, to 29, but also dipping down to 18 to 29.

And just think looking at, okay, that's a, a lot of transition happens in that decade of life,

decade plus of life.

And like how, how can we as people who care about young adults, uh, come alongside them?

And so yeah, so I managed the research and also managed turning that research into resources,

uh, for church leaders, but also parents and others who care about young adult.

Yes.

Very doggone, good resources, if I, if I may say.

And, and for those of you that are interested in this stuff, uh, if you've got young adults,

if you've got college kids and you're like, what am I supposed to be doing with these people?

How can I make an impact?

We will make, uh, we'll make links and information available on the show notes, uh, over to Fuller

Youth Institute.

So you can see the, uh, the good work that they're doing over there and where you can

get stuff.

We'll make that amount and make that available as well.

So, okay.

Caleb, here's the, the one question that I, I have, uh, been thinking about with regard to your work

and the work you're doing.

Do you feel like because you're working with older, you know, you're working with young adults,

emerging adults, have you recently thought about like kind of the re like

parenting in light of reverse engineering with what you do.

So you, you know, the challenges that lie ahead for the 20 something.

Um, how has that impacted, uh, your own parenting, your, your own, your own fatherhood, uh, journey

as you've been, uh, leading your family.

Yeah, that's a great question.

You know, my kids are pretty, they have a ways until they enter that phase of life,

but even still just looking at what it is like to be a young adult today.

Um, it's changed so much from previous generations.

And so I think it has already shifted more consciously or subconsciously.

It's definitely shifted the way I think about, okay, what does it mean to prepare

my kids eventually for adulthood?

So right now, you know, some of them I'm preparing them to, uh, use the potty on their own.

Um, but, but if I think again, um, you know, that it's not, they don't really need a script.

In terms of, okay, after this, you do this and after that, you do that.

And it's all going to work out.

That's not really the way life is.

I don't know if it ever was that way, but definitely isn't the way life is now.

And so what they need is more the soft skills, the adaptability, the way to

learn and pivot and just kind of have that growth mindset.

Um, so I, I'm really hoping to instill that in my kids, just like a love for learning

and ability to, you know, when life changes and shifts, like you, you shift with it.

Um, and don't, you know, I think we talked to so many young adults

and this burden, uh, you know, this burden of, oh, I didn't follow the script I was given.

And it's not actually no fault of their own.

It's just, you know, the life in the world, it didn't make that script possible.

And so what we need is just a set of our kids to be able to adapt along the way and

not, you know, not just being pushed back and forth with the waves, but more like,

you know, you don't have to, it's not, it was not one right way to live life.

Yeah. Do you, uh, I hear you kind of using language really developing, we'll call it grit

and perseverance within our, with our kids that that, that seems to be, uh, a value.

Um, uh, you know, more and more so, we, gosh, we just had a conversation with our eldest,

my eldest son's 14 and we just had a conversation.

Uh, some, he got thrown a little bit of a curveball today with some life, life plans,

some things that he's passionate about and cares about.

And, you know, I said to my, I said, I was having a conversation with my wife ahead of time,

like, we're kind of queuing this up like, Hey, uh, we're going to talk to him about this right

now, or are we going to, you know, some information came to us and we're like, we have to share this

with him. And you know, uh, and I, I had this sense of like, this is where, this is sort of the

testing ground, the proving ground for developing resilience and adaptability and adaptability

that you're talking about where he thought things were going to play out this way over the next

few months. And now there's going to be a slight change to that. Um, if when you're thinking about

your work with young, with young adults, um, and, and want to encourage parents who are, who,

who have young adult kids or about ready to have young adult kids, uh, where would you stack that

whole resilience grit adaptability in terms of like, how important is it from what you're,

what you're seeing in your work? How important is it that, is it to instill that within them?

Oh, very. Yeah.

Thought we froze there for a while. It took him a while to come up with that one.

I was like, do I say anything other than very, and that's the only way they came to mind is

it's just very important. And I think, you know, having that posture as a parent of being present

with them as they process those things, but not trying to solve the problem for them is so huge.

Just knowing, okay, I know somebody has my back, you know, the young adult speaking, I know somebody

has my back. Um, but I also, I have something within me where I can, I can handle this challenge.

And allowing them to know what it feels like to draw on their own internal resources that you've

equipped them with that others in their community have equipped them with. That's just so essential.

And they'll, they'll ask you when they, they want guidance and support, but kind of some, some of us,

you know, we all have different parenting styles and personalities, but some of us, we kind of have

to just listen more and, you know, advice less. Yeah. And all of this, you know, really Caleb is

under the umbrella. I mean, I think the big assumption we're making here is the fact that

we have the ability to, to kind of give this input and this guidance into our kids' lives.

It definitely assumes relationship, right? Like it, like that's, that's the thing.

And really without relationship, you don't have, it's kind of like, I still feel, and I feel like

this with my, with my kids and Andy, I don't know how you feel like there is still this ongoing

sense of I have to earn the right. So to speak, to, to be heard by my kids in certain, in certain

places. Like I have to, I have to, because there comes a point when they're younger,

where it's like, you're going to do this because I, I'm, I, because I'm the dad, right? And I use

those, the words that we always said we wouldn't use because I told you so. Well, let me, let me

tell you this though, like as, like my oldest just became 18. And so that's even harder now to

let that go. And he reminds me almost constantly, hey, I'm 18, I'm 18. I don't have to listen to

you. I'm like, yeah, I used to live in my house. Yeah. But, but yeah, as they definitely get older,

and that's tough, especially when you're just like used to saying, because I said so.

Right. Right. Because now you're, you're drawing on the well of your relationship with him.

Right. For, for the guidance, right? It isn't so much of a, of a, from a position of, of authority

as it is a position of real, of relationship. Right. Right. But you know, Caleb, so in the

thing, the important thing we want to highlight here and mention is, so Caleb at his, at his

aspiring work that he is doing this good work at good enough dads, which let me just say,

beautiful name, perfect. Cause that's, that's all I want. I just want to be good enough.

And I think we've said that before on the show too. We said, we've said, we want to know that we're

not screwing our kids up. And so yeah, Andy and I talk about this perpetual concern that we are

doing something drastically terrible that's ruining our children. Right. And, and sometimes,

you know, you have these good, this sense of why I've really messed up. Can we ever come back from

this? And really the truth is we're, we can, we just have to, we, there's an intentional,

intentional nature to it and a relationship. But Caleb, you recently wrote this. You really

roast, wrote, recently wrote this article on, on your site over at good enough,

good enough dads.com, which we again, we'll make available in the channel.

Absolutely. Everybody that's interested. Definitely encourage you. But his recent article just came

out a few days ago where Caleb, you talk about three proven ways to build lasting relationship

with your kids. And you won't move over immediately because you quote Nate Burgessie,

which is, that's all I needed. I was like, this guy knows what's going on. Perfect.

But really talked about, you know, there's lots of things that we are trying to build with our

kids. But at the core, and as we've said here, with the input and the impact that we're trying to

make, relationship is important. Walk us through the article, give us the, give us the highlights

of kind of the point that you want to make with this and what you want to communicate

to dads that are, you know, that are maybe struggling in this area or asking for some,

asking for some help. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Thanks for that, Joel. I, you know, yeah, I,

I, yeah, share, apparently we share a love of a comedian, Nate Burgessie and just that bit that

he has, you know, people giving him advice, like, they're not going to remember any of these fun

things you're doing with them. It's like, what, you just want me to lock them in a room and say,

do you remember what happened yesterday? No, okay. You remember me. I just like an amazing bit,

but it's really struck a chord with me because I felt like, you know, it's not what our kids remember

that's necessarily the most important because our connection with them, that relationship

that we build with them is actually stronger than memories. You know, memories fade, but that

relationship stays forever. And so, you know, I thought about my, my research that I've done

with the Full Youth Institute as well as on parenting and classes I've taken, kind of just

bringing back to the simple things, but the simple things can be hard, right? But of

doing three things, listen to your kids, share with them, and I can spend more of what that means.

But also repair, like when you mess up, yeah, you don't have to be perfect, just have a good enough.

But if, you know, we need to be able to apologize and make amends with our kids.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, as I think with any of us, you know, we come into,

and this comes up on the show frequently, you know, we come at this parenting thing with a lot of

our own, you know, our parenting frequently reflects in one way or the other, one direction

or the other, the parenting that we receive, who we saw in our moms and our dads and how they

approached. And in this article, Caleb, so you share, your dad, you lost your dad about 10 years ago.

Tell me about his influence in your life, what you sort of take away in terms of your

own parenting journey, like what you've drawn from that. Because I think, you know, those

reflections are important too. Like we don't start with a blank page on any of this stuff. We have,

you know, whether we recognize it or not, there's definitely some things kind of hardwired in or,

I gosh, I still feel like this to this day, I'm still remembering things that my dad did

in a new way now that I'm a father, right? So I just wonder, I just wonder about that about your

own, about your own dad and kind of as you've reflected on that, what's kind of come to your

mind? Yeah, yeah, thanks for asking that. I'll first just say I was very, I'm very grateful to have

had a really amazing dad. My childhood years are just like great memories with him playing sports

together, games, wrestling, you know, all the fun stuff. When I was 13, he got diagnosed with ALS.

And that really shifted our whole family dynamics, shifted our relationships with my dad.

He was still who he was, but this was, you know, kind of a giant cannonball just like dropped in

our family. And so a lot shifted. And so I feel like I can have experience of both having, you

know, that amazing kind of large in life hero dad and seeing just the fragility of life and seeing

his humanity. And even at times, you know, I am so grateful for all everything he's done. But

times where, you know, he, he was trying to figure out his own life and it was harder for him to,

you know, necessarily be pouring in as much into each of us. And so I can relate to both like the

amazingness of having a really present and engaged dad and also when a dad is going through something

that makes it just harder to have that same exact connection. And yeah, and then since my dad's past,

just giving me, yeah, it's kind of hard to believe, but yeah, this past November is 10 years.

Wow. And just a lot of time to reflect on just the impact. And I was just thinking about like,

I still feel so connected to my dad. Oh, great. And a lot of it is just like he, he did listen to me.

You know, he did share his life with me. And he was one of those, you know, I felt like even a

rare dad or he apologized, you know, when he felt like he did something wrong. I was like,

those types of things, like I'm going to feel connected to him in my whole life, even if it's,

you know, on season, what is it 90 and we're all all in gray. I still feel that connection

to my dad and I'm just grateful for that. Yeah, that's, I think, I think we would all say as dads,

like, that's a great litmus test of when I am gone, what will my kids remember? What will,

what will come to the surface? What will they say about me to my, you know, to my grandchildren?

What will those, you know, so there's a, the legacy, the legacy thing there is always important.

Some people, I think some, some men in particular think about legacy in less helpful ways. They're

like, they just, they want to be remembered regardless of what they actually did in life.

They want to be remembered in a certain, in a certain way. It's like, I want to be remembered

accurately, right. But favorably would be nice, you know, would be nice too.

But I think Caleb's just really, really beautiful. And as you said that, I just like,

gosh, I want, that's, that's a really thing that I want. Like I want, you know, I want

that connection to still be there in a meaningful way that, that's something about my life

is still an active presence after, you know, after I'm off, I've left this earth and I've,

you know, gone, gone, gone on to, to be with God, like, you know, that, yeah, that, that there's

been that, that positive deposit into life. And I, I just have to imagine that you're part of the

good work that you're doing. I, it just seems to me is probably fueled, fueled by that in a

significant way. I'm guessing. Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I feel like it's

this combination of what got my dad's given me and how much I want to share that with my own kids.

And also just a sense of like, I've learned and grown so much through being a dad. And I,

I really feel like the sense of calling a purpose around supporting other dads that, you know,

that there's so much that's so challenging about being a dad that's really present and engaged.

But there's also, at least in my experience, nothing that can help you grow into the person

that you're meant to be, then leaning into that role and that calling. And so, yeah, but

absolutely I'm fueled by my relationship with my dad. Yeah, 100%.

So Caleb, you've said, you listed three, three, three things and that's where I want to dive into.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you said the relationship component, you said first and foremost, listen,

which boy oh boy. Well, I think that's even, I mean, that's hard. I mean,

especially when we were talking about before, when they're young, when you're saying things like,

because I said so, or whatever it may be, because you know, I'm your dad, like for you to, to,

to listen sometimes, that's really hard. So I guess, yeah, Caleb, tell us, tell us about that and

tell us what, what lists, like how, how do we listen? How, how should we listen? Yeah, yeah,

great question. I think in so many ways, it's like sadly a forgotten skill in our culture about like,

what does it mean to truly listen? Not listen in order to respond, but like listen in order to

understand and even empathize. Like when I, my kids are just, you know, really struggling emotionally,

having to melt down or whatever it is. You know, what does it look like for me as a dad to like,

and just listen to get what they're going through, understanding that there's this amazing quote

that being heard is so close to the feeling of being loved, most people can't tell the

difference. Oh, come on now. Yeah, that'll preach. Yeah. And just like that, that is just like such a

weight that one of the simplest, most profound, but yet nevertheless difficult things to do is just

simply listen to our kids, you know, put down the cell phone, eye contact, and I, you know, I,

I'm championing the importance of this. And I don't do it on 100%. Right? Like my mind sometimes

wanders, all the things, but like, but I know I'm giving my kids a true gift when I'm just

offering that like undivided presence and attention and just truly listening to them.

They feel understood, they feel sleep. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I, and I think,

you know, my kids, I'm guessing most of this way, I know the teenagers that I worked with for years

for this way, they can tell the difference between you listening to understand

and you listening as you wait for your turn to speak to them. And

and sometimes in the, you know, gosh, in the pace of the day and the whatever, it's like,

okay, I'm okay, tell me your thing, tell me your thing. Okay, so thank you for sharing. Now,

I need you to X, XYZ, right? And when that's happening, when that sort of listening quote

unquote listening, which is not really true listening is happening in the light of, you know,

the really conversation we're having here, that is not a relationship builder. That is a, that is a,

that's it's doing the opposite. And I think there's, gosh, there's maybe no harder word to hear than

dad, you never listened to me like that's, that's, that's hard. I have, yeah, yeah. And I've heard

that recently. I don't know if any of you guys have heard, have ever heard that, but like I have

heard something similar to that recently. And that's, that's a hard one. It's probably kind of a

yeah, gut check of like, okay, what, what does my, am I distracted? Like, like,

Caleb mentioned, am I distracted by something else or, or am I really, am I present there?

Recognizing and dad's friends, I hope you hear this listeners. I hope you hear this

the way Caleb said, I think was perfect. It is a gift, undivided attention, listening intentionally

with a purpose to understand is a gift to our kids and they receive it that way.

One of the things that I liked about the article that Caleb was you did say, you know,

if you want to know that their love, listen to them and then you say, hear their stories,

empathize with their pains, no fixing the situation allowed, even if it is called for,

that can, that can be later. And so those are three things that I really, I really like because

you're, you're giving them 100% undivided. Again, you said, they can sit earlier, put the phone down,

but, but those are those things like if you're hearing their stories and you can

recall details of their stories back to them, they're going to know that you're hearing them.

And then again, you may not, I mean, it may be a while since you've been a middle school boy

or girl, if you're a mom or whatever, but if they're coming to you with pains,

as a dad, you may not understand that, especially if you're a dad and it's a girl. I mean, that's

sometimes the hardest to go because I know how I felt growing up as a boy, but I don't know what

it felt like growing up as a girl. And so my daughter has things that she's dealing with that

are different than mine, but I can still empathize with her pains. And then again, just listening

to it, you know, as a dad, especially when your kids are hurting, you want to try and fix it because

you, you don't like when your family is hurting, but just listen to them and take it in.

And it's the same. And we have overlapping conversations. Caleb, I don't know about you

and your wife, but it's also true sometimes like the fix it mode thing is the easy place for us to go

in meaningful conversations with those that we love. And sometimes they just want us to listen.

And then I know that sometimes like my wife is notorious for, I want you to listen because it's

just like, it's an experience for her of externally processing something. And that in

of itself will have them in a good and healthy direction apart from, you know, whatever words

that I have to say that may not actually be of any value whatsoever, other than I was just a

person there that they cared about them that just sit there and listen. Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

I think about, you know, practical, practical problems can be fixed, right? But if it's an

emotional one, you know, what fixing looks like is actually just emphasizing understanding, making

somebody feel, you know, a child feel like, Oh, you, you hear me, you understand what I'm going

through. You know, and Andy, you mentioned, you know, you might not totally understand like why

your kid, you know, your middle school girl, child, daughter is feeling this way. But you don't

actually have to understand why or think it's legitimate that she's feeling that way in order

to empathize. All you have to do is go, Okay, I recognize what you're feeling, you know, or,

and, you know, allow her to correct you if you say the wrong word. And you go to a place where

you understand what that feeling feels like, you know, and that's that sharing about, okay,

we understand one another. I know what it feels like. I don't know exactly what you're going

through, but I know what it feels like to feel rejected. That that creates a connection.

Yeah, absolutely. So after we do all this listening work, there's more, there's more to be done,

because you list after listening, you say, a important part of this relationship building

process is to share. What do we mean? Yeah, I mean, I think sharing looks like so many different

things. But I think one of the key things is just sharing experiences together, right? I mean,

some of these things come natural to us as dads, but those opportunities where you're

maybe even intentionally creating memories, you know, memories are great, but creating those

experiences together, doing things together, allowing them to share in your life and yours

in theirs, whether you'd like to go camping or sharing sports or play board games or whatever

it is, just share experience together. That's going to build your relationship so much,

because it's quality time and there's chance for interaction, you know, emotionally, physically,

all the different ways that when you have those shared experiences.

Yeah, we're, as I've shared several times on the show, something that a goal of mine right now is

after each of my kids turn 13, usually the spring or summer after they turn 13, they get to pick a

trip that we go on together. It's just the two of us. And I've really been thinking about,

I think the challenge for me, like, so my next son, he turns 13 in March and we're talking about

doing a hiking trip out West and I'm, this particular trip will take a lot of preparation.

And it's going to, for even me physically, like what I have to do to get ready for this is like,

it's going to be a thing. And I have felt this, you know, I have felt this tension and a little bit

of anxiety around it, because I want everything to go well. Like I want all the details of that

experience with him to go well, right? At the same time, you know, I kind of came back to the other

day, I was just trying to recenter myself on like, why am I doing this? What are the purposes?

It is to share in the experience together, because that's the thing

realistically that he will remember. And in not whether or not, you know, every single hike that

we wanted to go on or whatever thing just went exactly as planned and, you know, that we covered,

you know, this many miles per day or blah, blah, blah, whatever the case might be.

But that we set along, you know, we set aside what really is sacred time to share together. And

so I just, I'm grateful for that, Keele. Like that's a helpful reminder just in the sharing

in the sharing part of what actually is making the difference, what is actually making the impact.

And sometimes it's not all the details that we think have to be have to be lined up. At least I

hope I hope not because I'm like, I can get trapped in the weeds. I can get kind of get into a

mentally bad place and trapped in the weeds. Does that make sense? Like, you know, trapped in the

weeds and stuff like that. And it's like, gosh, Joel, like, you gotta think about this differently,

hopefully. Oh, yeah, you know, I totally agree. You know, you mentioned at the beginning, you know,

that this coaching, you know, business I've started and blog about good enough dads,

it really came out of this sense of, you know, I'm a recovering perfectionist myself. And so I

kept feeling like I had to focus on like doing everything perfectly as a dad, even though it

wasn't fully conscious. I thought, no, I don't feel that way. But really, I was driving so much.

And then I read book after book. And there's so much research that says you don't have to be a

perfect dad. You just need to be good enough. And I really believe that, you know, good enough dads

can have great relationships with their kids. That's great. And thinking about your planning,

right, you don't have to have a perfect trip. Personally, when I look back on different

experiences, whether it was with my parents or at camp or whatever it was, when everything went haywire,

I mean, those are the stories that we tell. Those are the stories that get handed down from generation

to generation. You know, it wasn't like how fluffy the pillow was, it was, you know, the lightning

struck right next to the tent, you know, whatever it is. But so I just think like, just being in it

for the relationship and, you know, even communicating, you know, with your son, you know,

like, what's the meaning of it? You know, if you don't don't just share experiences,

but you also talk about like what the experience means. Yeah. That just like deepens it and this

makes it so much more rich and so much more memorable. And that connection is like, oh,

it's not just we like to spend time together, but it means something like you're 13 now,

this is this is something we've done for each of our kids at 13. And this is why

like that, those types of things just leave a mark. Well, and I think again, like you said,

those little things, even if it doesn't really matter, you know, grand or small, your events,

your memories that you're making with them, you know, I can remember several times. And I think

I've talked about it on the show before, but like where we would, especially when the kids were

younger, it's harder to do now that a lot of mine are older. But when they were younger, like just

even going to like Lowe's or Menards and walking around and just making memories together. But

like you said, it can be the big things too that you go on a trip and it's crazy because like,

I remember going one time to Texas to this quote unquote zoo. Oh, yes. That literally like we pull

up and there's the what looks like cattle panels holding the tigers back and it's not.

They have different zoo rules down in Texas. Caleb, I don't know. I've been to the San Diego zoo

and it was lovely and very well fortified. But Texas, this is not a zoo. Like it was like someone's

backyard, like a 10 acre. It was bad. It was bad. It's the best story ever. But my kids,

I say that story now because my kids continue even now to this day to talk about it. And it was

only the older three that were with me. Our youngest wasn't with us. It wasn't born yet. And

like they, you know, they talk about it all the time about this zoo that we went to. But again,

memories are made and that's the important part. I felt scared for my life, but memories were made.

Yeah. And that's in, you know, it was like the trip that my eldest son, Aaron, we took a trip this

past spring. We did a, we did some of my oldest son, it's baseball all the way for him. And so we

went to spring training out in Arizona. And then I had a hiking trip planned and well, as it turns

out, they had a late season snowfall and all the hiking trails that we were going to go on were

covered in four foot of snow and we couldn't, we couldn't get access and things like that.

And I remember in the back of my mind just going, this thing is falling apart. Like this is not,

because we did try to take one hike and we made it all of like a hundred yards and Aaron's like,

dad, I don't think we're going to be able to pull this off. Cause it was like, I mean, he's in snow

up to his, up to his waist and he's like, we, we can't do a two mile hike like this. And I'm like,

no, we cannot. And, and he, you know what, but to your point Caleb, I mean, same deal,

like he mentions that now he laughs about that. And he was like, it was so funny though, you know,

it was just so, such a funny thing. And I'm like, gosh, I'm so glad you remembered that way. Cause I

was like, dog gone. This is a significant portion of what I like, cause this was like one of the

experiences I wanted to go on this hike with him and do, you know, and I don't know, and talk about

all the important things of like, like have a climb up the mountain and have a life talk about

all the important things that you need to know as a young man. It didn't go how you want it in your

head. No, no, not at all. And, and yet, and yet it was exactly what it needed to be in terms of,

you know, in terms of how he remembers it and how he talks about it. Now you, the last thing that

you mentioned in this blog about the three proven ways to build lasting relationships is repair.

And that's hard. Oh gosh. Very, very hard. So can you talk a little bit about

what it looks like to repair relationships with your kids?

Yeah, definitely. I think when we do apologize and make amends with our kids when we repair,

we're doing so many different things. One, we, we are repairing our relationship, right?

Relationships are always going to have like some pulling away and some pulling together.

We just want more pulling together than pulling away. So we're always going to have those moments.

But the other thing that we're doing is we're actually modeling for our kids how to

do this well, right? So, you know, as we get better at apologizing, just owning it, and it

doesn't have to be a big thing, but just saying, yeah, you want to mess up, I'm sorry. You know,

I understand how you feel. How can I make it right? That, that allows you just kind of come

back together. And it also just demonstrates to our kids that, oh, our, our relationship is stronger

than any, any mistakes we make, right? That this one of the things that for me, why,

you know, the good enough dads, that title, that name for this, you know, organization resonates,

resonated with me was that I, you know, as I was learning about parenting and doing all the stuff,

you know, there's this one book that talked about that if you're actually focused on being perfect,

it's actually detrimental to your child because you're more focused on your own performance

than you are on the relationship. So if you mess up and you're thinking, shoot, did I really mess

up? No, actually, you're doing all these mental gymnastics. They really, it wasn't me, you know,

is they, you know, they way out of line, rather just think, okay, what is it? What is our relationship

mean right now? And how can I bridge to any gaps that are there and take ownership of what I did

wrong? That, that's what creates, you know, that solid relationship. Yeah, so that's what comes

to mind with that. Yeah, I've, I'm, of course, I had to have this conversation tonight because

I'm aware of a repair thing that I need to do with at least two of my children right now. And

you know, I just think, I think about that as an opportunity, and I'm aware like that is an

opportunity, it's an opportunity that I don't want to miss out on. I don't want to leave something

undone there. As I've just sort of been thinking about today, like, I don't want to leave something

undone, because then that also teaches them that it's okay, like it, that it's okay to leave that

sort of stuff, like it's, it's okay to leave those sort of things kind of loose ends and, and just

kind of let them hang out there. Where, you know, if they've, if I've done something that I'm not,

I'm not proud of that I've said something or acted in a way that I'm, that I should not have and I

should be asking for forgiveness. And I don't, that models to them the same thing, right? That it's

like, eh, you know, like people will forget, it'll blow over over, you know, in time, people will

forget about it. It won't matter as much anymore. And man, I know we've been talking about memories

and what kids remember and how important those memories are, you know, how, how impactful they

can be in light of the, in light of relationship as relationship is, is feeding into them. And,

you know, it's like, I don't know, I think, I don't want a bad story to be written relationally

because I left that sort of thing undone. I didn't, because I didn't pursue the repair part.

And if we're real honest, I mean, it's kind of like, you know, this is really about our onigo and,

you know, I think it can be hard maybe for some of us as, as men to be like,

oh, I need to go apologize to a child. Like if we're honest, like that can, that can seem

like what's, you know, like it,

Well, especially, especially if your pride is there and you still have that whole like,

you need to listen to me because I'm your dad. Because then, then that, for you to apologize,

that means that you were wrong to begin with. And it means that, that they, you know, maybe

shouldn't have listened to you because you were wrong. So yeah, that's definitely, as a parent

can be tough. Yeah. So it turns, turns out, I mean, you know, fatherhood has this way of like

humbling you, hopefully, in all the, in so many ways. Number one, when you know you messed up,

number two, when you don't have all the resources that you, you need in order to do it, and then

you have to seek help in other, in other ways. So, so yeah, I think, Caleb, I think those are

three helpful categories. There's just sort of keeping the, in the loop in our, in our head,

like at any given time, like, you know, are we, are we doing them? Are we doing them well? You know,

are we, are we, I don't know, maybe making a little bit of a, I don't know, a checklist in our

brain ongoing, right? Like, Hey, what about listening? What about sharing? What about repairing?

Listen, share, repair. And I like them because they rhyme. They do. It just rolls, it rolls

right off the tongue. Yes. Which something tells me, Caleb, that you did it on purpose. I'm just

going to, I'm going to give you the best of the doubt. I'm just going to say you were strategic

in what you were doing there. So well done. Well, thank you. Thank you. And I mean, and just to jump

on one of the things you just said though, about that, how can be difficult to apologize? I think

if we kind of reframe it in our minds as dads about what does it mean to parent? What does it

mean to father? Well, I think one of our primary roles as dads is to model and show for our kids

how to be human. And I think that that acknowledgement of making mistakes and knowing how to handle that

and preparing relationships, like that's saying, I'm human, you're human. And we don't need to put

as much as anything on as dads. I want to be the super dad, right? Like that's like I want to be

that. But at the same time, I have a responsibility to my kids to show them what it is to be human.

And that's a gift as well. And I think too, that goes along well to with the way that you treat

your wife. It, you know, your kids should see you fight and have disagreements and also should see

you make up and apologize and say that you were wrong because in the long run, you don't want

them to go into a marriage relationship thinking everything is going to always be 100% flowers and

roses because it's not. And, and you bet you also want to see that you want your kids to see that

you deeply love their mom as well as being able to this is how like you said, this is how a real

relationship happens. You know, people, people offend each other, people have disagreements,

but it's okay. We can come back and we can apologize and we can work out that, that relationship.

Yeah, definitely. So Caleb, we, as always, are super grateful for these amazing things that

you've shared. We will, we're going to make the website and Caleb's contact, whatever,

whatever Caleb wants to put out on the internet, we'll put out on the internet over the show

notes for this episode over at dudesanddads.com, dudesanddadspodcast.com. Again, a little rusty,

new year. We'll get back on the horse. But yeah, on the show notes. But before we let Caleb go,

as is always the case, he must submit to the rigors of.

And now it's time for the dudes and dads pop quiz.

Perfect. Yes. There we go. I had the audio too low. Again, it's been too long.

It's okay. We're going to get it. We will get it back on it.

Caleb, this is a time where we ask you questions to help get us get to know you just a little bit

better. There's no way you can prepare for this. There's no way you can even begin to

anticipate what we are going to ask. But Andy's got some cards. He's got the cards. I'm, I'm,

I've got a few new questions in the hopper. Oh, so you guys, I see how it is. You go away on a

trip to California and you come back with new, new questions. It's, it's new. It's improved and

it's fresh. I should have known. I should have known. Do you want me to start with my questions?

Okay. So here's question number one. Caleb, how many hammers do you have in your home?

Two and also three more that are plastic. Nice. Okay. Congratulations. Yes. I came up with this

question today when we're, we're cleaning out a storage area and the number of different sorts

of hammers that I came in contact with was alarming. And I was like, how many people,

do people know how many hammers they have in their house? Cause I didn't until today.

I thought I did, but every time I go to look for one, I can never find one. Bingo.

I'm actually looking for it. Bingo. It's probably in my storage room where I found all the rest of

them. It probably is. All right. If you could send a message to the entire world, what would it say

in just 30 seconds? I repeat what I said before, but you don't have to be a perfect dad to have

great relationships with your kids. That relationship you have with your kids is going

to make your life better. It's going to make them their life better. And you're actually going to

make the world better. Good enough dads can change the world. Oh, come on. Caleb. Caleb, my next

question is if you could become instantly an expert at one thing, what would that one thing be?

I have so many things floating through my mind right now. I know, but this is, I want to give

full credit. This is, this is my wife's question. This is, uh, she, she gave this one to me and

I think it's great. So that's why I'm trying it out on you. Let's see. I, every time I'm up hiking

in the mountains, I have this, like every time it is a beautiful view and like there's like a

valley going down, I just picture myself hang lighting from that to down to the valley below.

So if I could just be an expert on that, catch me hang lighting expert hang glider. Okay. Great.

All right. What is the worst job that you've ever had?

And hopefully your ex-boss is not listening. It will. Maybe they are. Maybe they are. It was a,

it was a summer job in between, you know, we know a year of college, I mean next year of college,

selling time shares. I remember this one time I was at a water park and nobody has anything to

sign up for anything there. They just, they're just wearing their swimsuits. This person,

you know, you try to memorize, you don't ask the same person more than once, uh,

you know, if they want to sign up for anything and you know, this person kept changing

her outfit and who she was with. And I asked her like five times if she was ready to beat me up.

It was terrible. Gosh. The moment you said time share sales, I just, there's a,

so I have a story. So when we, we were just in Branson, right? And Julie came back after she

checked in and said, Hey, if we go to this thing on Friday, I'm going to give us money.

This whole thing. And we debated and we debated and we finally called them back and said,

we're not going to come to your thing. No amount of money is worth me listening to your time share.

Yeah. I've gotten, I've gotten suckered into one of those things. I almost, I almost did

because it was like, there's money involved. But then, yeah, they offered a pretty sweet deal.

It was not, it was not worth it. No, no. Yeah. And I, I wasn't the one of the actual salespeople.

I was just trying to get them to come like, spin a wheel. Oh, right. Like just give them an email.

You know, that's how they get you. That's how they get you guys. Uh, let's see.

I'll spin the wheel. Yeah. Don't spin the wheel. Don't do it. That's good life advice.

In general, stay away from wheels that you should be or should not be spinning.

Caleb, if you were to write a book about your life so far, what's the title?

I, this is also, I've noticed so many things floating through my mind here about my life so far.

He's so thoughtful, which is what I appreciate. I'm too thoughtful.

Like podcast, like, where does this guy go? He disappeared.

I would have to say, don't hold me to this. I might change the title later.

You're allowed. You're allowed. It's a working title. Yeah.

From son to father and back again. Oh, come on. Write it down. Write it down. And Andy,

mute Caleb real quick. Let's see if we can trade market and get the domain right now.

Get the domain right now. Wow. Well, that nailed it. Great.

All right. My last question, and this is a go to doads and dads podcast question.

If there was a sandwich named after you, what would be on it?

I would have to say it's tri-tip and arugula and horseradish on a chabata bun.

Okay. So Caleb, I don't know if you know this or not, but tri-tip is a unique California thing.

Are you? It is. It's not. You guys not have cows out there?

We do. No one talks about tri-tip out here though. But last time, so my uncle,

uncle by marriage, uncle Tom out in Bakersfield, that dude does a mean tri-tip. I never had it before.

And I'm like, it was magical. So just once you know, the rest of the country, or at least parts

of it, is missing out on this tri-tip phenomenon to be just either something special going on

on the West coast when it comes to tri-tip. I don't know. I don't know what else to say.

Hey, who knew Caleb? Congratulations. You have successfully passed the doods and dads

pop quiz way to go. Way to go. There is no award, but if we had one, we would give it to you.

Thank you. Awesome. Well, hey, everybody, as always, like we said, you can head over to

dudesanddadspodcast.com to find all the good news about our episodes, every single one of them.

And we're back. And all that. We're back recording. All of Caleb's goodies will be over there as well,

so you can check in on the website, the blogs, the coaching services, all that.

And I'm going to continue to hammer this one in. We do have a voicemail.

Don't go out. Leave a voice message. We love them.

At 574-213-8702. Making your New Year's resolution to leave us a voicemail.

People for the love. Come on. Hey, everybody, dudesanddadspodcast@gmail.com. You can leave us

an email as well. We like emails. We love for show ideas and all that good stuff. Appreciate it,

chef. Hey, guys, thanks for being with us. We're looking forward to a great 2024 and season six.

And until next time, we wish you grace and peace.