Tune in to this episode for a refreshing perspective on the art of communication, as we delve into the profound insights shared by Joe Keohane on the transformative power of engaging with strangers. In a world often dominated by digital communication, Joe takes us on a journey to discover the untapped potential and unexpected benefits that arise when we step out of our comfort zones and initiate conversations with unfamiliar faces.

In this episode we:

• Explore the science and psychology behind human connection
• Discover practical tips on breaking the ice and initiating meaningful conversations
• Uncover the surprising ways talking to strangers can enhance our well being

Don't miss out on this thought-provoking conversation with Joe Keohane!

Drink of the week….Danger Stranger 

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Julie Brown:

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Joe Keohane

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The concept of teaching children about stranger danger is deeply ingrained

2

in our societal approach to safety.

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From a young age, kids are often

taught to be wary of unfamiliar

4

individuals as a means of protecting

themselves from potential harm.

5

While this message aims to instill a

sense of caution, it can inadvertently

6

foster a persistent fear of the unknown.

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well into adulthood.

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As adults, the lingering effects of

this childhood lesson can hinder our

9

ability to comfortably engage with new

people and embrace new experiences.

10

Welcome to episode 189 of This Shit

Works, a podcast dedicated to all

11

things networking, relationship

building, and business development.

12

I'm your host, Julie Brown, speaker,

author, and networking coach.

13

And today I am joined by Joe

Cohane, author of The Power

14

of Strangers, The Benefits of

Connecting in a Suspicious World.

15

It's remarkable to consider that

many of the individuals who now

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hold significant places in our

hearts were once complete strangers.

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It's a testament to the transformative

power of relationships, reminding us

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that the most meaningful bonds often

emerge from unexpected intersections,

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which is why I am so excited to have

Joe here to talk about how we can learn

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to create more of these intersections

by connecting with strangers.

21

Joe, welcome to the podcast.

22

Joe: Thanks, Julie.

23

Thanks for having me.

24

Julie: Yeah, I'm super excited.

25

Let's dive right in.

26

So your book delves into the

idea that connecting with

27

strangers can be a transformative

experience, I wholeheartedly agree.

28

Uh, what inspired you

to explore this topic?

29

Yeah.

30

Joe: family of funeral directors actually

in Boston, and as I grew up, I watched

31

them in the way they were socially.

32

And basically, they just talk

to everybody all the time.

33

They were super social.

34

My parents would do things like reach

across two tables in a restaurant to make

35

an observation about something someone was

eating or wearing or whatever, but they

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were so adept at it that they were able

to do it without freaking people out.

37

And as a kid holidays, there

would be like strangers.

38

Over for the 4th of July, someone

they met at Dunkin Donuts, or someone

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they met on a trip, or whatever, they

were constantly accumulating friends.

40

And it was never mortifying to me, I

know it's often horrifying, for kids

41

when their parents talk to strangers, you

know, mine definitely looks at me funny

42

at age 7 when I just chat with people.

43

Um, but it seemed like a really natural

and a really healthy way to live and I

44

got to see the benefits of it, right?

45

Just in the sense of this constant,

stream of new people entering their

46

lives and new friendships and all that.

47

So, I went into journalism when I was

younger and that also is, you know, you're

48

practicing the art of talking to strangers

when you're working in journalism because

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you have to connect with people quickly

and you have to be curious and all that.

50

You gotta be quick on your feet.

51

Um, but a few years ago, I noticed

that, while some of my most

52

formative experiences in my life

came from talking to strangers,

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that I had sort of stopped doing it.

54

I was going to bars and I was

like looking at my phone, which

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is an appalling thing to do.

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I would go to CVS and I would go to

the self checkout line and avoid,

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interacting with the cashier.

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And I noticed it one day that I had

sort of pulled back a little bit.

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And I missed the serendipity that I used

to get from just chatting with people

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because if you talk to strangers, you

know, obviously in a safe venue, but if

61

you do it the right way, you'll always

be surprised at the hidden depths

62

and complexities and idiosyncrasies

and all this stuff that people have.

63

So I just started digging in a little

bit and trying to figure out why I had

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pulled back and, more to the point,

the benefits, what the benefits are.

65

Um, and from my perspective, a

lot of it was the phone, right?

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Because when you have a phone and you're

of a certain privileged class, you

67

can go the rest of your life without

ever talking to a stranger again.

68

Right?

69

Like, it just removes you from the public.

70

And it's really efficient

and, in many ways I like it.

71

Um, but it takes you out of the game.

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Takes you out of, kind

of concrete reality a lot.

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Very easily.

74

And the other thing is we had a baby and

I was just tired, so I wasn't hanging

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out as much when I was, I was, tired

and just couldn't much couldn't like

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marshal the energy to initiate these

conversations that when I was younger

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came, you know, fairly easy to me.

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So that, that led me down a

million different rabbit holes

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of research, um, looking into.

80

You know, why we, why we don't talk

to strangers, when will we, and

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how can we get good at it, what

the long term benefits are for.

82

Julie: I have a couple

follow up questions.

83

You mentioned that your, you came

from a family of funeral directors.

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Do you think that being around

people all of the time who had

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lost people made your family more?

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just see the value in building

relationships and the people

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around you because they were

constantly around somebody's loss.

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Joe: I mean, I think that

it gives you a sense.

89

I worked in the business for a while too.

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Um, it gives you a sense that the

clock is ticking for one thing, right?

91

So you don't really take life for granted

when you're surrounded by death a lot.

92

I think in the case of my family,

it made everyone very funny.

93

And, um, I don't know if you've

had, like, experience with funeral

94

directors, but they're really funny

people in the same way that cops

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are often really funny people and ER

nurses are often really funny people.

96

People who work in really extreme

situations tend to develop a really

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good sense of humor to cope with the

darkness of what they're seeing every day.

98

So they certainly had that, but I mean,

I think You know, to the point here,

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when you work in that business, reality

avoidance is not, an option, right?

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Like, you are in it every day.

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It's a very social business.

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You're interacting face to

face with people every day.

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There's no working from home

when you're a funeral director.

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Like, you are in the

company of other people.

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You're in the company of many different

types of people from many different

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backgrounds, many different persuasions,

and you have to connect with them in

107

order to serve them in the way that,

you know, they expect and they deserve.

108

, so I think that made everybody pretty

deft, um, socially, and I think that

109

helped, probably helped a lot too.

110

Julie: So another thing you said

in that first answer was talking

111

about talking to strangers, talking

to people at the checkout or

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in the coffee shop or whatever.

113

And you said you can have

really good conversations if

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you do it in the right way.

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What did you mean by do it in the

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Joe: Yeah, so this is a big part of the

book where I set out to, to basically

117

rebuild myself as a very social person.

118

Um, and in order to do that,

I wanted to start from zero.

119

I wanted the book to be useful to

someone who didn't have a background

120

in this, who might have been, you know,

intensely socially, anxious, who might

121

be shy, might be more introverted and

just explain how these interactions

122

work on like a molecular level, right?

123

All the moving parts of these

interactions, and there are a lot.

124

, but also the skills that you can build

in order to get better at it and get

125

more comfortable at, and obviously

the big thing is going to be safety.

126

So, do it in a place where there

are people around, um, you know, I'm

127

very well aware of the advantage I

have is like a six foot tall white

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guy, , in the realm of personal safety.

129

But for people who might feel less

safe generally, to find the right

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place to do it, interestingly, a

lot of the people I spoke to, to.

131

Gather tips on how to do this.

132

Well, identified as introverts

and most of them were women,

133

which is interesting to me.

134

So I would ask them how they do

it, how they can practice this and

135

still feel safe at the same time.

136

And they would generally just

say, don't do it in bars, right?

137

Because your intention is going to be

misunderstood, but do it, you know,

138

in broad daylight when there are

people around, when you can feel more

139

comfortable doing it, you're not doing it.

140

When you're all alone in a

darkened place, you know?

141

Um, but once you find the places

that are gonna be, that you're gonna

142

feel safe doing it, it's a question

of just noticing and listening.

143

Ironically, the key to talking to

strangers is to not talk to strangers.

144

It's to listen to what they're

saying and to notice things.

145

So, if you're in, you're both

experiencing the same thing at the same

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time, making an observation about it.

147

If there's something about them

that's interesting, respectfully

148

ask a question about it.

149

And then make it clear that your

intention is not untoward that you're,

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you know, like I like your glasses.

151

I'm in the market for

a pair of glasses too.

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Do you mind if I asked

you where I got them?

153

, those sorts of things, exercising

those muscles is really important.

154

You know, getting back into the

habit of making eye contact is a

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very difficult thing for people.

156

So, I took a class with a woman named

Georgie Nightingale in England who

157

runs an organization called trigger

conversations and she literally

158

teaches classes on talking to

strangers and she's brilliant at it.

159

She basically starts from zero.

160

So, to get people comfortable to talk to

strangers doesn't mean go into a Starbucks

161

and initiate an intense philosophical

conversation with the barista.

162

It means you have to start easy.

163

You have to get used to like the building

blocks as you go, the fundamental skills.

164

So that would be eye contact.

165

And so what Georgie taught.

166

Was just get used to making eye

contact, and again, like not leering

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at people are glaring at people, right?

168

Like under, you know, be aware of

yourself, but when you're walking

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down the street, make eye contact

with somebody and just see how it

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feels to you and see how it goes.

171

When you're buying something at a store,

make eye contact with the cashier.

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You'd be shocked how.

173

How rare it is that people actually do

this, and then see how they respond and

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kind of monitor your reaction to it.

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And then you can build from there.

176

You can say good morning to someone when

you walk by them on the sidewalk, make

177

a little eye contact, say good morning,

and then just watch how they respond.

178

And you get more comfortable with it

and, by and large, you're pleasantly

179

surprised by people's response.

180

Um, and then there is, some

great tips that Georgie had.

181

Like, say you are in

the supermarket, right?

182

And you get to the cash register,

and the person at the cash

183

register says, how you doing?

184

You know, everybody does the same thing.

185

Everyone follows a script.

186

Fine, how are you?

187

Right?

188

You don't put any thought into it.

189

You're not actually listening.

190

You're not engaged.

191

They don't really care.

192

It's just, you know, this is something

that humans invented because it

193

would be weird to not say anything.

194

Though often, often they also not say,

they don't say anything to each other.

195

But when you're in a situation like

that, and someone asks you a question

196

Um, actually answer the question.

197

Um, so if someone says,

how are you doing today?

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You can actually answer that.

199

So you don't want to go on and

on about how, like, there's a

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thing growing on your neck or,

you know, don't get weird with it.

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Yeah, but you can, you

can actually answer it.

202

And a really, a really cool trick

that Georgie came up with was.

203

Um, give a numerical answer.

204

So if someone says, how you doing today?

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You can just be like,

you know, six out of 10.

206

How are you?

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And it's amazing what that does

when you, when you respond that

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way in these situations, people

will actually light up because now

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something different is happening.

210

Like you're actually engaged, you're

actually paying attention and you've

211

also created a frame that allows them

to respond in a comfortable way too.

212

And what generally happens when

you do that, you say, how are you?

213

And they'll give you a

numerical answer back.

214

And now you're like, you know, you

have a little, you're playing a little

215

game here and then you can, you know,

Georgie will say, well, if you're

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a 7 out of 10, what would it take

to make you an 8 out of 10 today?

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And then maybe someone tells you

a little bit about their life.

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Like these things don't

have to take a long time.

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They can just take the amount of time

it takes to buy something in a store.

220

but it's remarkable what people will

tell you and like the possibilities

221

for these little connections.

222

Um, and sometimes they're really funny

and sometimes they're poignant, you

223

know, like a thing that I started doing.

224

Particularly after the pandemic,

was, I would ask people if, um, like

225

people in service positions, um, if

people are behaving themselves today.

226

So if you're in like a Dunkin Donuts and

you say, you know, how are you doing?

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They'll be like, fine.

228

And then you say people behaving

themselves today and the stories you

229

get are harrowing and hilarious, but

you know, it's, it's good for you

230

because you're getting a little bit of

connection, but it's good for them because

231

someone is actually empathizing with.

232

With a very difficult job, which is

working in service post pandemic.

233

Like people just get

beaten on, on those jobs.

234

But anyways, I suggested people do that.

235

And then my oldest friend went to a Dunkin

Donuts in Massachusetts and asked the

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clerk if people were behaving themselves

today and she just started crying and so

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he called me and he was like, you made

me make a woman cry at Dunkin Donuts.

238

Um.

239

Julie: You didn't make, that person

didn't make them cry, but everybody

240

Joe: I know that's what I

was trying to explain to him.

241

I know exactly.

242

But, um, but those, you know, it's

like, you don't, you don't, don't get

243

ambitious with it right out of the gate.

244

Just go for these little, you

want a little exchange, right?

245

Like you feel comfortable with it.

246

You learn something, someone feels

seen in, in you feel that you have

247

a little connection with someone.

248

Um, you know, I had to go

back to the supermarket.

249

I remember.

250

buying groceries one morning and there

was like a teenage girl working there and

251

she was like, you asked me how I was doing

and I was like, honestly, I'm beat today.

252

My kid kept us up all night last night.

253

We're exhausted.

254

And she goes, how old is she?

255

I was like, she's three and she

goes, I have a little sister too.

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It gets better.

257

And this is like a teenager, you know,

and now what could have that, that,

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that interaction could have just been me

not saying anything and her not saying

259

anything, but instead it ended up being

like a little connection and I got to

260

see a depth of empathy in a teenager and,

and, you know, and we had a little chat.

261

It was cool.

262

Um, again, not, it doesn't

have to be profound.

263

It just has to be that.

264

And once you get comfortable with

that sort of level of interaction,

265

um, then, you know, and the

situation allows for it, you can't.

266

Again, you can't launch into like

a deep philosophical conversation

267

with someone who's busy.

268

Don't make a nuisance of

yourself, but you learn to

269

read people a little bit better.

270

You learn to follow your curiosity.

271

You get a little quicker on your

feet, learn to navigate these

272

very complicated interactions.

273

And when you do, there's actually

a growing body of research now, on

274

this, the benefits of talking to

strangers, what they call minimal

275

social interactions, which are small,

little passing interactions with them.

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guy at the gas station, the woman

at the coffee shop, whatever it is.

277

This has been led by psychologists,

Nicholas Epley, Juliana

278

Schroeder, and Jillian Sandstrom.

279

And they've done a lot of experiments

now, and a lot of this, these findings

280

have been replicated in other countries

by other researchers as well, that find

281

that when people talk to strangers,

they come away from the experience

282

feeling more connected to their

communities, feeling a stronger sense

283

of belonging, less lonely, more hopeful.

284

You know, long term effects can be

depolarization, it can be a reduction

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of prejudice, all these things that

happen as the result of deeper,

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meaningful, competent, connections with

people who are different than we are.

287

There are tons and tons of benefits

of this and at a time when loneliness

288

is at epidemic levels and people feel

estranged and they feel angry and they

289

feel that they're not being listened to.

290

And they're not really leaving

their houses quite as much

291

as previous generations.

292

, these are really important things.

293

I was reading the other day

that they're talking about using

294

ketamine to treat loneliness.

295

Which is, I'm glad that they're figuring

something out because loneliness has

296

very dire physical, consequences.

297

But the solution to loneliness, the

cure for loneliness, is just other

298

people, like, we are surrounded by

potential treatments for loneliness.

299

, we have just, in many cases, lost the

skills to initiate those connections

300

and make those friends, you know?

301

Julie: Yeah.

302

So you actually answered what was going

to be my next question, which was, so

303

these, this like six out of 10 thing,

when you, somebody asks, how are you?

304

We would probably put this under the

umbrella of small talk and people probably

305

don't think that there's a profound

effect to small talk, but your book

306

says that there is wellbeing benefits

to these, as you're saying, minimal.

307

minimal social interactions, this

small talk that we have with strangers.

308

So if we could do that more every single

day, then it would only lend to the idea

309

that we'd be, our well being would be

310

Joe: Sure.

311

Yeah.

312

Small talk's funny because it gets

a bad rap, because mainly people

313

don't understand what it is.

314

I went pretty deep on the anthropological

research of how like humanity

315

learned to live among strangers.

316

And one of the key, innovations

that human societies came up with

317

were things called greeting rituals.

318

So there's a thing called, yeah, so one

of the innovations that human society

319

came up with in order to deal with the

reality of strangers is these greeting

320

rituals, which were just like ritualized

ways to make a stranger feel safe.

321

To recognize that we're in the same

space to deal with, sort of the

322

possibility of threat coming from the

stranger with versus the possibility

323

of opportunity coming from the stranger

and to reconcile those things into a

324

structured way that allows us to meet.

325

other people, meet new people,

work with other people, and

326

communicate with other people.

327

Now, in traditional societies,

these are much more elaborate.

328

They involve, a series of stages

that the stranger has to be brought

329

across in order to show that they're

not murderous, and they're not

330

agents of chaos, and all this stuff.

331

But we have evidence of these

throughout modern society, too.

332

A handshake is a greeting ritual, right?

333

a handshake is showing that you

can be, you can make physical

334

contact with someone, and

they're not going to attack you.

335

, and Smalltalk is another version of these.

336

Where, the functional, the function of

small talk is not to be the conversation.

337

And that's why people hate small

talk so much is that you get stuck in

338

small talk and you can't get out of

it and it's boring and it's miserable

339

and, it makes you want to leave.

340

What it really is, is that

it's a greeting ritual.

341

It's a way of establishing that

you're in the same space, that you can

342

safely talk to each other, that you're

experiencing the same reality, right?

343

That you're not chaotic.

344

It's a way to, normalize yourself

in the presence of another person.

345

And then once you do that, once you

connect with the person, once you've

346

established, that you can talk safely,

then you can move on to something else.

347

Now, if you're at a cocktail

party, like, what do you do?

348

That question, right?

349

That's a bonding ritual.

350

It's a way of like, can

I talk to this person?

351

Do I feel comfortable with this person?

352

But if you get stuck in what do you do

conversations forever, it's like death.

353

It's the worst.

354

So basically it's just, it's the

beginning of the conversation.

355

And, from there, once you

feel that you can talk, then

356

it's a question of listening.

357

It's a question of asking good open

ended questions like who, what,

358

where, when it's a matter of not.

359

Um, just steering the conversation

into something that you're personally

360

interested in or do the thing

everyone does, which is like,

361

how can I get this back to me?

362

, it's like travel, right?

363

So when you're really talking to somebody

you've never met before, it gives you the

364

opportunity to explore their experiences.

365

And the only way you can do that

is being, having an open mind.

366

So when they say, this is what

I do for work, you don't just

367

say, oh, that's interesting.

368

Here's what I do for work, because

that's what kills the conversation.

369

You ask questions about that.

370

How did you end up doing that?

371

Do you like doing it?

372

If you could do anything,

would you do that?

373

Would you do something else?

374

Julie: I always ask, is that what

you wanted to do when you were a kid?

375

Because it's generally not.

376

Very rarely is it, are they

doing what their childhood them

377

Joe: Yeah, did your childhood

dreams die when you took this job?

378

Um, there's a guy named Paul Ford

who's a tech CEO and a writer and he

379

does this thing when he's at a party

where he'll ask someone what they do,

380

what they do and then they'll like, you

know, someone asks you that question

381

and you already want to leave, right?

382

It's such a

383

Julie: Oh, it's been scientifically

proven that it is the most

384

Joe: Yeah,

385

Julie: question.

386

Scientifically proven.

387

Joe: if you ask it as an opener and then

what Paul would do is they would tell

388

him what he, what they do and he would

say, geez, that sounds really hard.

389

And then you would get

like the whole person.

390

Once you do that, right?

391

I think if you ask people about their,

you know, what they wanted to be as a

392

kid, you'll get much more of the person

and then it gets much more interesting.

393

And then from there it's a dance

where they disclose something

394

a little personal to you.

395

You make a match disclosure of

something a little personal too, and

396

you're kind of following each other.

397

And then sometimes you end up in really

amazing conversations with people if

398

you have the time to spend together.

399

Um, but yeah, it's just, you have to be

aware of all these different parts of the

400

conversation in order to get good at it.

401

And that's what I try to do with the book.

402

Julie: What do you think?

403

You know, what is the balance

between technology or digital

404

and personal interactions?

405

We mentioned our phone is

probably the biggest culprit.

406

It's also sort of the

advancement of technology within

407

stores, like you mentioned.

408

Self checkout, which I usually do because

I'm just like I just gotta get out of here

409

I don't want to wait in line, you know, so

410

how do we balance the fact that we

are not going to go backwards as far

411

as a society and our dependence on?

412

Technology, so how do we balance

that going forward knowing that we do

413

Joe: Yeah, I mean, we are, we're

hyper social beings and social

414

contact keeps us healthy, like, that's

the baseline thing to understand

415

is that you can't go without it.

416

And I know that, social contact with

friends, with strangers, with family,

417

wherever they can be fraught, they

can be There can be friction involved.

418

It can take energy.

419

Sometimes you have to travel to do it

like there's effort involved in it.

420

And I think the other thing as humans,

like we tend to gravitate towards,

421

efficiency and ease in a lot of ways.

422

So when given the opportunity

to completely withdraw from in

423

person human interactions, like

we'll do it because it's easier.

424

And there's an evolutionary reason why we

default, why we'll go for easier things.

425

It saves energy.

426

It drains fewer resources in terms

of the food you have to eat, the

427

calories you burn and everything else.

428

Um, but we have evolved, in such a

way that we require real connection

429

or else we start to fall apart.

430

We fall apart mentally and

we fall apart physically.

431

So I think the first thing you

need to understand is, this

432

is not like a fun thing to do.

433

This is a question of health.

434

It's a question of nutrition.

435

Like I think of it in terms of, um,

of like your social diet, right?

436

So your main, Forms, your main

sources of nourishment are

437

going to be friends and family.

438

Hopefully if you have healthy

relationships with your friends

439

and family, um, but then also just

interacting with the people you meet on

440

a daily basis, that's also nourishing.

441

That's also nutrition.

442

And if those people become

friends, then that's great.

443

Right?

444

Then that works a lot better.

445

And so I think you need to understand what

you need psychologically and what you need

446

physically in order to be a healthy human.

447

And social interaction

is, a huge part of that.

448

Now, can you get that over Zoom?

449

A little bit, but it's a little

harder because it's like a more,

450

it's like a low fidelity connection

that you get through Zoom.

451

A little research showing that,

yes, sometimes, if you have a very

452

good conversation on a digital

platform, it can have some of the

453

same effects that it does in real life.

454

But it's not the same.

455

You're not getting the full person.

456

It's, it's a little more two dimensional.

457

So I think people do need to take

the initiative, but at the same

458

time, like I love texting, a lot of

this stuff, it definitely makes life

459

easier, but I know I don't feel great

when I do only this for a long time.

460

I know that I do need to go out and

just have a conversation with someone

461

just to remind myself both that it's

doable to kind of refill the tank.

462

And also just to honestly feel a

little bit better about humanity.

463

Um, You know, this is a bit

of a side point, but, and I

464

didn't put this in the book.

465

I didn't realize it until later, but

when you get all your data about what

466

humanity is from social media, from the

media, and I say this as like someone

467

who's in the media for a long time,

you are going to get an overwhelmingly

468

negative view of humanity, right?

469

So if you're only reading the

newspaper, you're only, you know,

470

reading online publications, you're

going through Twitter, whatever.

471

Much of what that's going to tell

you is that people are horrible,

472

because the incentives are that

people are horrible on these things.

473

And so it's, it ends up being really

reassuring to go out into the world and

474

find that you can communicate with someone

you haven't met, and that person is

475

interesting, and that person is kind, and

that person is curious, all that stuff.

476

It's a way to counteract the pessimism

that you get from, an overwhelmingly

477

digital media diet, and I think everyone

I talked to who does this, who wants to do

478

it has reported back like a similar thing.

479

Just being like, I felt

really lousy about people.

480

And then I went out and I just had a

nice conversation with somebody and

481

I feel a little bit better because we

generalize from our interactions, right?

482

You have one really good interaction

and you feel better about people,

483

and you have one bad interaction

and you feel worse about people.

484

So you need to be aware of

that, of using this to maintain

485

a healthier and more balanced

perspective about what people are.

486

And people can be terrible,

no question about it.

487

But my experience is that, just

getting out there and talking

488

to people makes me feel a lot

better about the species, I guess.

489

Julie: Yeah.

490

Do you have one story that

someone's shared with you that

491

you're like, yes, that's an amazing

stranger intersection story?

492

Joe: Yeah, there's, it didn't, this didn't

make the book because it was such a long

493

and complicated story that my editor

wouldn't let me put it in there, but I was

494

actually talking to this guy yesterday.

495

, I was in Boston and I was

getting a taxi back to the train

496

station like early one morning.

497

To go back to New York where I live

and the Lyft driver shows up and he

498

had a dish of starburst in his car.

499

And so, you know, it

was just like starburst.

500

I haven't seen these in a while.

501

And he was like, yeah, you know, I

tried hard candy and no one wanted it.

502

And I tried some other stuff and

it seems like starburst is the

503

thing that people really, people

are really interested in this.

504

And so we started talking and he

ended up being one of the most

505

interesting people I've ever met.

506

And we're, to this day, we're still

friends, but he was born female,

507

identified as male, had a horrendous

childhood in the South, lived all

508

over the country, super smart, really

interesting, really charismatic, ended

509

up going to Smith College at like 45 to

study public health, ended up in Uganda.

510

While in Uganda, Locked eyes one

day in a village called Gulu, with

511

a kid who was covered with burns.

512

Like, 60 percent of his

body was covered with burns.

513

I think he was 10 years

old when Jay met him.

514

And they had this profound connection.

515

And from that point, Jay decided

that he was going to try to get

516

this kid the medical care he needed.

517

Because if you get that burned

at a young age, like you'll die.

518

Your skin doesn't stretch,

it doesn't grow, so you need

519

serious medical treatment.

520

So Jay spent 10 years of his life,

trying to get this kid the help that

521

he needed in order to survive, and

just this incredible story of like all,

522

everything they went through together.

523

Really remarkable, and that all came from

me noticing that he had Starburst in the

524

car, and it was such a great company, you

know, we rode in the car for 15 minutes

525

and I got, you know, he told me about a

lot of that and then I just called him

526

and we ended up talking more and, now

we're pals, but I got to, experience that.

527

You know, which is a wildlife story.

528

I also met him, in the middle of his

transition, and so I couldn't say that

529

I had any transgendered friends, and

so it was interesting meeting someone,

530

because now I have an understanding of

what the issues are like there, what

531

the difficulties are like, and what

the, the struggles and the unintended

532

sources of comedy are in this.

533

Like, he was just a, just a

fascinating person, and also just,

534

like, you know, a good guy to talk to.

535

So, I think that was probably my favorite.

536

I, you know, I had a, I put a lot of

interactions in the book that were just

537

kind of passing interactions that ended

up being Quite profound interactions on

538

the subway, which you're not supposed

to do, but those turned out, you know,

539

pretty, pretty remarkable in some ways.

540

Julie: What?

541

What do you mean you're not supposed

542

Joe: Nobody's supposed to talk

to strangers in the subway.

543

Kiddingly.

544

That's like a, that's like

one of the big social norms.

545

So one of the things that keeps people

from doing this is like the idea

546

that you're not supposed to, right?

547

Um, and subways are one of the

places that people feel least

548

comfortable talking to strangers.

549

Um, I think because it's so crowded

and everyone's very aware that

550

everyone else is like busy and

trying to get their quiet time in.

551

But there's been A number of pretty big

studies on this where psychologists sent

552

people out to, initiate conversations

with strangers on mass transit,

553

and every single one of them going

out is like, this is a disaster.

554

People are going to think I'm nuts.

555

Someone's going to attack me.

556

They were overwhelmingly pessimistic.

557

About how it was going to go.

558

And then they did it and it was unanimous,

like literally unanimously positive.

559

these participants were, men and

women across multitude of ages.

560

Um, and there wasn't a single

one who had a bad experience.

561

So it was pretty amazing, but

there is like, there's this idea

562

that you're not supposed to do it.

563

And we have a very hard time

violating social norms as humans.

564

Julie: Is that a newer, can

I ask a clarifying question?

565

Was that, is that, I don't

take the subway anymore.

566

I haven't taken the subway or

the T cause I was in Boston.

567

I haven't taken the T regularly since

I started my business eight years ago.

568

Cause now I just drive to my office.

569

But when I did take the T.

570

I was so curious about people on

the train, what they were reading,

571

where they were, you know, like

I would always, I would always

572

talk to people , on the train.

573

Is that a newer social norm or is

it, or did I just always buck the

574

Joe: Yeah.

575

I think you always buck the system.

576

And I think there's people with a

certain approach and a certain energy

577

who can get away with a lot of this.

578

And, my idea is that.

579

Having learned about this and having

practiced it a lot, you can get to

580

the place where you can just violate

all these social norms and ease

581

and people are comfortable with it.

582

It becomes problem problematic if I'm

like, if I'm like sweating trying to talk

583

to someone on the train, you know, like

making me nervous, I'll make them nervous.

584

But if you're confident, you're

comfortable and you're respectful.

585

You can pull it off.

586

, again, I'm the woman, Georgie

Nightingale in England.

587

She got so good at it.

588

She's a genius at this stuff, but she

would get on the train, the tube in

589

London and see a man wearing a hat

and just point to him and go, and that

590

would be enough to start a conversation.

591

Like she was so, she just had

like this way about her that it

592

made it very easy to do this.

593

, but yeah, I think in a lot of cases,

especially in London, like it's a

594

huge no, no, you can just Google it.

595

And people are horrified at the prospect

of talking to people on the tube.

596

Julie: I had no idea, but I'm

also fascinated by strangers.

597

So I feel like anytime I can

talk to a stranger, I'm happy.

598

So, as we wrap up, which I

don't want to, because I could

599

talk about this all day long.

600

Do you have one thing that the

listeners could just do today?

601

to start doing this in,

in their daily life.

602

I

603

Joe: Um, I would say,

604

So when you're just in your day

to day interactions with a waiter

605

at a restaurant with a cashier,

ask them how they're doing.

606

But see if you can get a real

answer, like show actual curiosity.

607

And I think that's, it's good.

608

It's a good place to practice because

it's, you know, it's a finite interaction.

609

It's not going to go on forever.

610

There's no chance that you're going

to get stuck there for an hour.

611

it's just a quick interaction,

but it's a way to, you know, to

612

use like an exercise metaphor.

613

It's like a way to get your reps in.

614

But I think more importantly,

those jobs are so shitty.

615

Now people are so nasty

to these people that.

616

Just being more human around

them and showing that you see

617

them as human beings as equals and

that you're actually interested.

618

Um, and you know, you, again, you

have to mind yourself a little bit.

619

Don't go in there and just roll in

and ask a super personal question.

620

But just aim for a little

bit of connection, right?

621

Um, and, and you'll come away

feeling better and you'll

622

get better at it as a result.

623

But like more to the point, their

day will be a little bit easier.

624

Um, and I think it's just like a kindness

that people need to relearn again.

625

I feel like we forgot how to be

humans, uh, to a pretty serious

626

degree during the pandemic and

we need to rebuild those muscles.

627

You need to treat people like humans

and not robots that exist to serve us.

628

Julie: All right, Joe.

629

Joe, this was great.

630

You're not a stranger to me anymore.

631

You were before this, but not anymore.

632

Thanks so much for

633

Joe: Yeah, thank you for having me.

634

It was a pleasure.

635

There were so many great takeaways

from this episode, but I think my

636

nugget that I'm going to be coming

away with and keep in my back pocket.

637

Is that small talk is a greeting ritual.

638

It's like a handshake.

639

Make sure it's quick and use it as a

way to engage in a deeper conversation.

640

I hope Joe has helped everyone come

away with an new found appreciation

641

for the potential in every encounter.

642

Or perhaps.

643

A reminder of the power of human

connection that emerges when we

644

step beyond our comfort zones, even

if it's just a little itsy bitsy.

645

You know, peace beyond our comfort zones.

646

Remember.

647

Every stranger as a potential friend.

648

A source of inspiration or a

gateway to a new perspective.

649

Or maybe just a way to brighten

your day for a couple of minutes.

650

By embracing the power of strangers.

651

We can enrich our lives.

652

Broaden our perspectives and

contribute to the creation.

653

I have a more connected

and compassionate world.

654

All right friends.

655

Onto the drink of the week,

which can you believe it?

656

There is a cocktail

called stranger danger.

657

Of course, of course there is.

658

This is a cocktail riff for everything.

659

It comes to us from the

folks at imbibe magazine.

660

Here's what you're going to need.

661

One and a half ounces of Pisco.

662

A half an ounce of mezcal.

663

One ounce orange cream soda syrup.

664

I'm going to give you the recipe for that.

665

One ounce of fresh lemon juice.

666

Three forests, ounce of

aquafaba or one egg right now.

667

Don't get freaked out.

668

I drink cocktails with egg whites

all the time, and I've never had

669

an adverse reaction from the Iraq.

670

Ag so that orange cream soda syrup.

671

Here's the recipe.

672

Um, this is obviously for a

batch of it for big batch.

673

So you could half it or

quarter it as you need.

674

So here's the recipe for that?

675

Combined 45 ounces of Sunkist.

676

With 45 ounces of sugar.

677

Cause, you know, It's simple surface.

678

Usually one-to-one.

679

Two ounces of vanilla extract and

a sauce pan over medium high heat.

680

Bring to almost a boil.

681

Stir regularly.

682

Then let simmer on low heat for 10 to 15

minutes, take off of the heat and cool.

683

And then store in the

refrigerator for up to a month.

684

Like I said, this is for a big batch.

685

So break it down as you see, it's usually.

686

Just one once with you have a cup of

Sunkist, use a cup of sugar, get it.

687

Um, and then obviously

bring down the vanilla.

688

Okay.

689

So after you have that simple

syrup made, this is what you're

690

going to do for the cocktail.

691

You're going to combine all of

the ingredients in a shaker.

692

then dry shake.

693

So no ice for a minute and then add

ice and shake for 30 more seconds.

694

Double strain into a coupe glass.

695

All right friends.

696

That was a more complicated

cocktail that I normally give.

697

Um, let me know if you

make it all right, friends.

698

That's all for this week.

699

If you like what you heard today,

of course, please leave a review

700

and subscribe to the podcast.

701

Also, please remember to share the podcast

to help it reach a larger audience.

702

If you want more, Julie

Brown, you can find my book.

703

This shit works on Amazon

and Barnes and noble.

704

You can find me on

LinkedIn at Julie, Ron BD.

705

Just let me know where you

found me when you reach out.

706

I am Julie Brown underscored BD

on the Instagram, or you can just

707

pop it over to my website, Julie

Brown, bd.com until next week.

708

Cheers.