Writing is often a solitary activity. Writers spend their days living, and talking with imaginary people, inside our own heads. Existing in that wind tunnel and never coming out of it is not the healthiest way to move through the world (or around the outskirts of it). But, it can be difficult for a swath of people notorious for introversion to brave conferences, networking events, or new writers’ groups.

A lot of folks don’t even know where to meet other writers. But, like anyone else, writers need to connect with friends and colleagues. We need people who can relate to the experience of navigating complicated inner worlds and an even more complicated industry.

We need people to help us celebrate our writing successes and offer condolences for when we hit craters. We need networks that keep us grounded without pulling us down. Community, or as my guest Jessie Kwak puts it, constellations.

Jessie joins the podcast for a second time, this time to talk about her latest book, From Solo to Supported.

In this episode, we discuss many of the subjects covered in From Solo to Supported; everything from how to meet other writers, conversation starters for conferences, and how to navigate giving and receiving feedback.

Welcome to the Hybrid Pub Scout podcast helping

you navigate the publishing landscape. I'm Em Einolander,

and I explore resources and services so authors can be

successful and safe as they pursue publishing.

but it can be difficult for a swath of people notorious for

introversion to brave conferences, networking events

or new writers groups, and a lot of folks don't even know where

to start meeting other writers. But like anyone else, writers

need to connect with friends and colleagues. We need people who

can relate to the experience of navigating complicated inner

worlds and an even more complicated industry. We need

people to help us celebrate our writing successes and offer

condolences for when we hit craters. We need networks who

keep us grounded without pulling us down community or, as my

guest, Jessie Kwak puts it, constellations.

Jessie joins the podcast for a second time to talk about her

latest book from solo to supported. Jessie Kwak is an

author, storyteller and business book, ghost writer, living in

Portland, Oregon, when she's not writing, she can be found

sewing, mountain biking and exploring the Pacific Northwest

and beyond. She is the author of thriller novels, two series of

space scoundrel, sci fi crime novels, and a handful of

productivity books. I first talked with Jessie in Episode 59

about her productivity book from chaos to creativity, and also

posted about her book from the same series, from big idea to

book. In this episode, we discuss many of the subjects

covered in from solo to supported, everything from how

to meet other writers, conversation starters for

conferences and how to navigate gracefully giving and receiving

feedback.

Here's the interview. So I wanted to kind of start with a

just warm up question for you as a writer. Do you like listening

to anything while you write?

No, I can't. Well, okay, I guess I will say, No, I

can't listen to music. Anything with words or even, like too

much of a melody is just so distracting to me. So I actually

when I need white noise to kind of block out other things, like,

for example, my husband right now is playing video games

downstairs, so I have been listening to thunderstorms.

Oh my gosh, I love that. Yeah, like

a thunderstorm YouTube video that is eight

hours long, that is just always in an open tub for me to hit

play.

That sounds like something I would love to

try. I mean, I have the rain outside periodically, and

apparently we're going to have a pretty wet winter, so that that

ought to do it, but at the same time, like That sounds lovely.

Wonder if whale sounds would also be nice.

It might. I think the nice thing about the

thunderstorm is that it's so consistent, like every once in

all there's little of like thunder, but mostly it's just

kind of this heavy rain, and so it's a very consistent

background texture. Whereas I wonder if whale sounds might be

a little too like, Oh, there's another one. I wonder what

they're thinking. I wonder what they're talking about.

What are they trying to say to me? All right,

so you've been on the show before, when we talked about

from chaos to creativity, and then you've done a couple of

books in the interim in that series. I mean, I know you've

done a lot of other books in the interim, but we had from big

idea to book, and from dream to reality, and then the one we're

going to talk about today, which is from solo to supported. And

there's a workbook in there too, right?

Yeah, there was a workbook related to, from chaos

to creativity, yeah, okay,

that's, that's quite a very like, helpful

toolkit of a series. Is there more on the horizon, or is,

would you say that you've pretty well like encapsulated the

experience,

I definitely there's, there's definitely more

to say about kind of I guess, I guess, just to give a little bit

more context, they're all related to basically running a

business as a writer and as a creative person, from chaos to

creativity is very much. Um, about like, for any sort of

creative, brained person who wants to get things done, and

then the rest are much more writerly focused. And that's,

that's something that I just I love talking about, because I've

been a freelance writer for 12 years now, and author of fiction

books and nonfiction books at the same time. And just the the

skill set it takes to run a writing business is very

different than the skill set it takes to write a book. And so

I'm always very interested in talking about that, that other

kind of more businessy skill set. So there's, I mean, there's

plenty more things that we could talk about there, but I don't

have anything currently in the works.

Okay, well, let's put a pin in, just like

the overall writing business part of things, because I've,

you know, wheels are turning, and I have selfish questions as

well, because I'm trying to do the same thing. I mean, am, but

it always feels like trying a little bit right, like your

system is always changing. You're always trying to figure

out how to, like, really get into the groove of a new way of

operating. I know that you're experiment, always experimenting

with different, like, technologies and stuff like

that. So, yeah, I can see how that would be very expansive.

But this book in particular, is about something that I know is

hard for a lot of writers to do, and that's finding community and

working in community. Because, you know, the life of a writer

is often considered very solo, solo title of the book, but it's

it's hard to continue with any project when you don't have

someone, at least, to talk about it with. So I think that this is

a really, like, valuable tool. So when do you refer to forming

a writing community? You use the analogy of a constellation,

which I love. Can you expand on what that means? And you know,

especially when it comes to different type of writer

relationships.

Yeah, so I feel like there's, there's the

stereotype of a writer who just, like, is in their writing cave.

You know, we think of like going on this retreat for months at a

time. The Shining might be a good example.

Clearly, have a viewpoint on where that's

going,

slowly going mad with your typewriter. But in my

experience, like you said, it's way more fun, way more

supportive, if you at least have somebody to talk with your work

about, let alone be able to share work with and get critique

and feedback, or be able to share your joys with and say,

Hey, I just sold a story, or I got a publishing contract, or

whatever, or to show you share your disappointments. I mean,

you know, there are just so many things that are really specific

to the writer's journey that a lot of people don't understand.

Like, you know my husband, I'm like, he's like, how was your

day? And I'm like, my I was just really struggling. Like, I feel

like my characters weren't talking to me. And he's like, so

you had a bad day because your imaginary friends weren't

talking to you? Yeah, that's so normal.

They are my imaginary colleagues. Thank you

very much. Exactly, exactly.

So, yeah, so that's kind of why I wanted to write

this book, is just really help people find, like you said,

those constellations. And the reason that I chose that

metaphor is because I feel like there, when you start looking

for community, you might be like, Okay, here's this local

writers conference, and you go and you're like, Ah, I don't fit

here. Or here's this critique group, and you show up and

you're like, this thing, it wasn't quite for me. Maybe

they're all writing something different. And I think that can

be very discouraging for people, especially if they have thoughts

that maybe whatever group that they were about to join is like

the epitome of the writer group in their area or their genre or

whatever. And so it can feel very alienating if you don't

connect right away in a with a group. And so I really wanted to

encourage people about, you know, don't think about finding

community as in plugging into an existing group, although you can

really find, you can find a lot of great friends in those

groups. Think about it like you are the center of your own

little writer constellation. And how can these different groups

and different friends and different, you know,

relationships that you build? How can those all relate to you

as kind of the core center of it. And I think this idea kind

of came about because I have a lot of writer friends,

especially here in Portland, and I am at the center of, you know,

kind of the indie writer, a little genre writer. I'm leaning

more into kind of thriller. As opposed to just science fiction

now, and so I have a very unique constellation where, you know, a

friend of mine who is traditionally published, who

also writes those exact same genres, has a very has a

different constellation, because he has gone and looked at, you

know, plugged into other writers conferences that I haven't,

because I'm going the indie route, so that, yeah, that just

kind of inspired me to be like, All right, when it's not about

find the one group, it's about find how you fit amid all of

these different groups.

Do you have a constellation? Because I know

you do nonfiction. Is there a separate one for that? Or would

you say that there's some overlap?

I think there's definitely some overlap. I am

constantly surprised at how many fiction authors have a

nonfiction book in them, and vice versa. You know, there's

plenty of people who like they've written a bunch of

business books. They're like, I've always wanted to write that

romance, yeah. And so, I think there's more overlap than than

not. But I do definitely have kind of a distinct nonfiction

more businessy, and I also I ghost write business books for

thought leaders and coaches and people like that. So they kind

of fit more into that constellation of people who are

not necessarily writing a book for fun or for to sell the book

and make money off the book, but people who are creating a

business, and a book is part of that business model.

What do you think is the main barrier that

separates writers from finding community?

I think there's a couple things. The main one is

probably just not knowing where to look, especially when you're

a new writer, you may not know what even how to Google like,

what are writing conferences, my in my area, or even what like,

what exists out there? You know you might not realize that there

are critique groups where people share their work, and that many

of them are publicly listed, and you can find them, you might not

realize, like, I'm still finding conferences. There's, like, a

Southwest writers, Southwest Washington Writers Association,

conference that couple of my friends went to, and they're

like, popping up on Instagram. Was like, wait, what? What

conference is this? Like? I live right next to Southwest

Washington. Why didn't I know that there was a conference

here? So I think that's kind of the biggest thing, is just not

knowing where to look. But then there's also kind of the

introversion, shyness part, which we like to hang out with

our imaginary friends all day because it is safe and

comfortable and we don't have to talk to other people. And that

is definitely a barrier,

yeah, for sure. Where are those listed?

For those who don't know the critique groups and the

conferences and things like that, where would someone go to

look for

those there? I mean, so I tried to, like, have

a comprehensive list in the book of like, here's places to go.

And it was just so difficult, and it changes so quickly. Like,

I mean, I even had a section in there about, like, finding

community with, you know, in November, with NaNoWriMo, and we

took that out at the last minute, because there's right

NaNoWriMo no longer exists. Exactly. It was like, page

proofs. And I was like, Oh, guys, we have to delete that

section. And so what I ended up doing in the book was basically

saying, like, here are some, some ways of googling that, you

know, I didn't just say, hey, Google it, but yeah, here's some

things to look for. Here's some, some of the keywords that you

might plug in to try to find your your people. But

meetup.org, is a pretty solid one. That's where, especially in

Portland, I've found a lot of different write ins where people

are just getting together. They're not necessarily sharing

work. They're just setting timers and having a cup of

coffee or a beer or whatever, and writing together in a space.

So that is a really, if you're trying to meet writer friends

like a write in can be a really, really, really great place to do

that, because it's there's no pressure. You don't have to,

like, get up and talk. You can just show up with your

headphones and write with other people, and, you know, on the

breaks, have more communication.

But yeah, and that's a great place to start

too, because I know that some people have trouble completing

projects in unless there's someone not necessarily holding

you accountable, but at least witnessing You and witnessing

the fact that you're working on your stuff. And it's nice to

have people to care about it too.

Yeah, it's, I mean, if somebody else can see your

screen and you're on a 45 minute writing sprint. You're probably

not going to jump over to social media. You're like the person

next to me is working hard. I guess I will continue working

it's very helpful.

So imposter syndrome, if we're talking about

barriers, big part of basically any field at all, or even. Just

social situations. So if someone doesn't feel like they're a

quote, unquote, real writer, or they don't feel like they're

worthy of being in the community with other writers, how would

you recommend that they navigate that?

I would say, I mean, first off, I want to

recognize that there are definitely communities of

writers out there, where, if you walk in the door and you haven't

published in a fancy literary journal, or you haven't met some

level of criteria, you are going to get snubbed. Like, there is

that out there, which sucks, but it's also such a small

percentage, especially these days. So I want to encourage

anybody, like, if you've had that experience, like, yeah,

I've had that experience too. It's awful, but

feel invisible,

yeah, yeah. But the majority of writer communities

that I have found since then have been very, very open and

welcoming. And I think maybe with kind of the rise of self

publishing, there is less of this, like stigma against, Oh,

you, you didn't do it the right way, or you don't have the right

credential, or whatever. So I think there's just a lot more

openness to everybody. So I guess that's the first thing I

would say, is you're probably not going to have that

experience, especially more and more these days, and if you do

have that experience, that's why I'm saying, build your own

constellation. Screw those guys. Go meet some new people.

Yeah, don't try to make them like you. Yeah,

exactly.

But the other thing I would say is that, like, if

you're a writer, or if you're writing, you're a writer, and

people, there's this whole spectrum of people who write

just because they feel like writing and they like telling

stories, and they're not really trying to get published, and

they don't really care. To people who are building a

professional career and thinking about writing in a very

different way. And it's like, like, my mom's really into

pickleball now, right? And she's just out playing pickleball with

her friends because it's fun, and she's surrounded by people

who are just doing it because it's fun. Like, none of them are

trying to get to the Olympics. And nobody's like, hey, just

because you're not trying to get to the Olympics, you know,

therefore you're not a real pickleball player. It's like,

did you pick up a pickleball paddle? I think it's what you

call them. Then, yeah, you're a pickleball player. So I wish

there was a little bit more about that with writing. Like,

did you write? Great, you're a writer. Come join us.

Yeah, in the writers critique group, I'm in

one of the people we were talking about. They were like,

you know that person who's always working on their fan on

outlining their fantasy novel, the person who's outlining it

all the time, working on their world building all the time, and

they never seem to get around to it. That's actually great. Like,

they're like, that's if you are having a great time, we're all

gonna die someday. And if that's the way that you find enjoyment,

then you know, just do it and don't feel bad about it.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I will add to that, if

you're hoping to get published, like you do need to actually

learn how to finish

projects. That's That's true. But if

you're not

just there for the fun of it, like, do what's fun

and do the fun parts and enjoy that, and don't let anyone like,

pressure you into feeling like, oh, well, I should be moving on,

or I should be this, like, it depends on your goal. And if

your goal is to hang out and have fun and tell a good story,

then do it.

So if someone does find that, let's say it's

sort of networking or event or a conference when there's multiple

people, and it's not necessarily like the write in thing, how

would you recommend someone set themselves up for success

instead of, you know, not actually meeting anybody because

they're too scared or something like that.

Like, I know everyone kind of talks down on

small talk, but like, it is how we build connections with

people, you know, that little moment of like, hey, it was

raining. Yeah, it was raining. This was my experience with the

rain. This is my experience with the rain on the way here. Like

you've built a little spark of connection. And, you know,

asking people, where are you from, or how long have you been

writing, or things like that, like all of those little small

talk questions, build, build these little sparks of

connection, and you can build off that. So in the book, I have

a whole list of like potential questions that and like

conversation starters for writers. And they're everything

from, like, you know, how long have you been writing? What have

you been working on? What? What genre do you like to read? You

know, what's the most interesting thing that you've

read recently? You know, because we're all reading

stuff ideally, yeah,

and so I like kind of coming prepared with a few of

those set questions. And it doesn't matter if you ask them

awkwardly, like the point is. Being a conversation started.

And the other big thing to remember is that, especially if

you're at a writer event, probably everybody is awkward

and shy and doesn't know how to talk to other people. So if you

can develop the skill and that little bit of courage to be the

first person that says, hey, I'm Jesse, do you mind if I sit

here? What do you write? Is this your first time at this

conference? Like you will be a hero to some people who just,

like, wanted to talk but didn't know how to meet somebody, I

mean, and I've heard that from many people who are especially

when I was early on, and I was like, okay, just go talk. Just

go talk. And like, I was terrified. And somebody's like,

Oh, thank you for coming over and saying hi, like,

I didn't know what to do. Yeah, do you I mean,

I imagine it's different every time, depending on the

circumstance, but do you kind of have a favorite go to question?

I think so. If I'm at like, a an event, I always

like to ask, like, Have you been to this event before? Especially

if it's like my first time, then I can go, you know, oh, you're

you've been here a few times, all right, what can I expect?

You know, you can get some knowledge that way. So that's, I

think, a favorite of mine. I really hate talking about what

we're working on. Like, I hate it when somebody asks me what

I'm writing,

because, yeah, it's like asking someone. It's

like asking someone what they do for work. And then work and then

finding out they're unemployed.

Yeah, I don't want to be like, Oh, I haven't

written in a week. Or, like, here, or ask somebody and then

suddenly, like, four hours later, you've gotten a detailed

version. Don't do this big caveat if something, if you're

talking about what you're working on, please do not

outline your entire novel to somebody.

Yeah, you mentioned having the actual,

like, elevator pitch for your work in progress, even just, you

know, like, limiting it to a certain span of time and being

ready to talk about it. And as someone who you know needs

scripts in general, like, that's a brilliant idea.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, I can, like, at this point

I've, I have trained myself into some level of extroversion that

Jesse from 10 years ago would not recognize. So, like, I can

hold a conversation, no problem. But the instant you're like, Oh,

you write. What do you write? Just like, blank, blank, blank,

blank. So I have a script.

I have a list of, like, my favorite books in

my notes app, just because it's like, I've never read a book in

my life. If someone asked me what

my favorite that's a good idea. I should do that.

Yeah, because I'm always like, I don't I don't remember what I

was reading last night.

It's like, I haven't actually read that many

books. Meanwhile, yes, I have. Yeah, there's an element, you

know, you can't overdo this, obviously. And I think that's

why I'm asking the question, like, there is self promotion

involved sometimes when you're networking, and how would people

go about that in a way that isn't tacky? So I

think it's important to know, like, where,

where you're at, and what the purpose of the event is, if it

is a making friends event, like you're not, you're not there to

sell your book to readers, so like, talk to people about what

you're working on. Often people will be like, Oh, that sounds

great. Do you have a link to your website or whatever, in

which case it's nice to have, like, a QR code on your phone in

your favorite photos or whatever, or a business card or

something you can hand out. But most kind of writery events,

they're really there to make connections with the other

people. So if somebody asks, give them a link to your book,

otherwise, just, you know, don't make it easy. Take Daisy, take

anything on, any sort of self promotion. For sure,

one thing I felt, in terms of, like,

networking, one thing I felt kind of called out on, and in a

good way, is like, if you go with friends, don't just talk to

your friends the whole time, because that's like, one of my

hugest like inclinations is just like, I know that person, I'm

gonna go talk to them the entire event, and then, you know,

you're not meeting new people.

So, yeah, that is, I would say, one of the biggest

kind of misses I see with people who are, you know, oh, I went

there and I didn't really meet anybody. It's like, Well, did

you, did you spend the entire time with Sarah?

Yeah, exactly. It's like, I had a great time.

But, you know, I also had them to my house last

week, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think there needs to

be a balance, because, you know, it's, it's safe to go talk to

the person you know. And there are definitely times like I went

to a conference like author nation, which is like the big

author, indie author conference, and it happens every year in Las

Vegas, and there are people I only see at that conference, so

yeah, I am going to spend a lot of time having dinner and

coffees and talking to my friends. But I also was like,

All right, I've been talking to Blaine too long. I need to go

talk to somebody. I need that person standing over there looks

interesting. I need to go meet a new person. So I think the way

to combat that is to to know that going. In that, okay, I'm

going to meet X new people today and talk to your friends about

it and say, Okay, we're going to this event together, but one of

my big goals is to meet new people. So let's split up and

then meet back together in 20 minutes, and hopefully one of us

can bring a friend back to join our little group, or, you know,

something like that, make it a little bit of a game and get the

other person involved.

That actually sounds really fun, yeah,

gotta try that. You're like, doubling your

networking, yeah?

And then it's more of a community experience,

rather than just like the one to one, yeah, yeah, exactly. So if

you are meeting all of these people at an event successfully,

how do you make sure that you stay in touch afterward? If you

want to, of course,

yeah, that is, I'm like, not great at that

necessarily. I would say, like, have maybe the social media

platform that you normally use. So for me, it's Instagram,

because that's just where I like to be. So I'll be like, you

know, oh, are you on Instagram? Great. I'll add you here, and

therefore I'm at least kind of seeing you. If there was

something specific that I wanted to follow up with them on, I

will definitely. I'll make myself a little note, like,

email that person, you know, that book recommendation that I

couldn't remember because I haven't ever read a

book in my life.

Like, when I wake up at 3am I'll email you what I

remembered. So I always have a little either a notepad or a

Notes app on my phone where I just kind of keep a running list

of, like, oh, I needed to follow up with this person about that.

And then so in like a professional networking context,

I actually do have, like, a networking tracker spreadsheet

where I add people in and can kind of go back and be like, who

was that person I met who ran that nonprofit for consumer

packaged goods business owners?

You know, right? Yeah, that's the, that's

the thought leader sort of Yeah. Element of things, yes. That's

the thought leader constellation, yeah,

but I don't think you need to go that hardcore.

Like, if somebody seemed cool, definitely keep in touch. If

they're local, like, grab coffee or do a virtual coffee. I think

that's one of the biggest missed opportunities that I see. People

who maybe go to a conference and are like, oh, man, that person

seemed cool, and I'll never see them again. It's like, we have

zoom, yeah, yeah, set up a coffee date.

And honestly, I like virtual coffees. Maybe

it's because, like, I'm comfortable podcasting, but

like, I, you know, if someone asked me on LinkedIn and we're

in the same field and they just want to chat, like, I love it.

It's nice to meet new people sometimes, or, you know, to go

back and catch up with old people. I mean, I'm still

comfortable with it after the pandemic. I don't know if other

people continue to be, but I think it's probably easier for a

lot of us at

this point. And it's, I mean, it's an easier

ask, you know, if it's like, Hey, do you want to do a 30

minute coffee date on zoom at 2pm on Thursday or whatever?

Like, that's 30 minutes of your time, as opposed to, all right,

I have to drive to the place or bike to the place and find the

parking and, like, have the coffee date, which is probably

going to be 90 minutes because it's in person instead of, you

know, and so it's way easier to schedule. Like, if somebody

pings me, you're like, hey, can we do a 30 minute zoom call? We

can schedule that all day long. But if you're like, Can we meet

for coffee this week? I'm like,

that's like, I don't know, gonna be my whole

afternoon?

Yeah, exactly. So I think people don't realize how

small an ask that really is, yeah, yeah. And probably the

other person wants to keep in touch too, and if they don't

trust that, they will politely say No, and that's okay. I think

that's the other part. Is we are afraid to ask for things because

we don't want to be a bother. And this is something I have had

to learn, like I have to trust in the other person, and I have

to trust that if they don't want to have coffee with me, they

will tell me no, because I can't, I can't make that

decision for them, and if they don't have good boundaries, like

they need to figure that out for themselves, and that's actually

not my fault. No, yeah, exactly. And also, I

mean, I think that it's important that we trust

ourselves to say no if we need to Yes. And you do get into some

of the trickier, like social you know, beyond meeting someone,

just having a relationship, friendship, professional

relationship, with people in your writing constellation, and

you deal with some of that stuff that I think people don't really

talk about that much. And one of my favorites was how to kind of

negotiate giving and getting feedback from people who are

also, you know, you consider a friend, because if someone

doesn't like your stuff, or if you don't like someone else's

stuff, that can be really awkward,

yes, yeah, it really can be. I, I have a I

just don't read, like beta read for people anymore, because it's

a lot of energy. G and if it's not good, then it's so hard,

weird resentment that comes up, and

then you, like, kind of hate yourself for it.

Yeah, exactly. I'm like, Why did I say yes? So, you

know, I have a in terms of, you know, trusting myself and my

boundaries. I just have a role where, if somebody's like, if I

could just send you that, I'm like, No, I don't do that. I

don't consult that way. I don't beta read that way. But I think

so if, if you are considering doing beta reading with people,

or, like, you know, sharing your work, do a trial run, like, do a

short story. Start with a short story. Don't say, hey, let's

trade novels. And then you get the first chapter of their

novel, and you're like, oh, no, what am I in for? Do a trial run

with short stories? Because a and it's not just that their

writing might not be great. It's like, it might not be your

genre. Yeah, you know, if somebody gives me a romance to

read, I just, I don't read enough of them to know if you're

hitting the trips, right? Like, if you give me a cozy mystery,

I'm gonna be like, I mean, this is pretty good, but, like, Where

was the stabby bits? Like, yeah, you're like, why? I know? And

they're like, well, that's the point. Oh, okay, so I think it's

really important to know what you are good at giving feedback

on. And if you and to be able to bow out and be like, hey,

that's, I don't know enough about that genre. Like, I could

tell you if it was a fun read, but I'm not going to be able to

hit the certain tropes

or whatever. Yeah, yeah. You're not the go to

person for that one. Yeah. But regardless of whether you're in

the same genre or not, you might recommend sort of keeping your

friendships and your like, beta reading, type stuff, separate in

general, or is that just a rule you've created for yourself?

It's a rule I've created my for myself. I think,

like you've mentioned your critique group a couple times,

and so I I think, like finding that group of people that you

can work with on a regular basis is probably the most helpful

thing you can do. And that's like, I don't know, would you

share a little bit about how you came across your critique group

and how you guys have gotten involved, because that's

something that I have done in the past, but don't have really

any

there is a person who one of the one person

is just a really good connector, and, like, good at telling

people who might be able to get along together. We actually

started hanging out, watching movies in genres we liked. And

then someone was like, hey, you know, I've been looking for a

critique group. And then we kind of formed it that way. And I

don't know if that's ideal, but we but it has been nice, and I

think it was just we got lucky to find people who are gracious

in that way. But I have been in critique groups in the past

where it was just not cohesive so much. And I think that's more

likely if I go into a place sight unseen, with people I

don't know, but I know that that's unavoidable. In some

cases, it's not so much a I'm going to hand them my entire

book and have them beta read for me, I think it's more of a kind

of mutual support. And then, you know, excerpts and short stories

and stuff like that, which I feel is a little different than

asking someone to read your entire book, yeah,

and like, in terms of asking somebody to read your

entire book, I thought is some definitely something I have

done, and have have occasionally done for other people, but when

in those situations, this just kind of popped into my mind, and

I wanted to share it, like I gave a book to a friend who he

read Maybe about a third of it, and he was like, you know, I'm

hitting a lawn on a lot of the same notes that you're going to

have to fix, that I assume are going to continue on and like,

so here's my feedback for the first third. I didn't continue

on. And I was not offended in the slightest. I was just like,

Thanks for protecting your time if you certainly, you know, if

you wanted to get to the end and you read the whole thing,

awesome, but like, you read enough to give me some good

feedback on these notes, I didn't particularly need, like,

I hadn't asked him, like, I need to know how this ending lands.

So I think, you know, just in terms of graciously giving and

receiving feedback, like, it's okay to bow out if you're like,

you know, this actually wasn't for me. Here's what I was able

to talk about, you know, things like I could share. So there's

think about that. I guess.

Do you have any sort of best practices for

being gracious about giving and receiving feedback?

It's so hard. And like, I'm a little skewed right

now because my husband has been my beta reader for the last few

years, five, six years, and he's has been terrible at giving me

like, feedback. Like, I mean I it's like crying. You. Know,

he's like, All right, we're gonna go cry about your novel

this weekend. Like, and it's been, I mean, the novels are so

much better because of it. Like, we've, we have figured out how

to, how to do this together, but so part of me is just like, I

don't know. Just give me the brutal thing and I'll, because

I'm used to it.

So sometimes, sometimes, if you have that kind

of relationship. It can be brutal, but other times you need

to be more tactful. Yes.

And I think the way to be more tactful that my

husband could learn is to be like, this works for me or

doesn't work for me, as opposed to like, you did this wrong?

Yeah, exactly. He'll literally sometimes write in the margin,

like better. Just like, make this better. Of like, Thanks,

babe, that's helpful.

Oh, good. Yeah, don't just don't be like

this.

So maybe like noting patterns you're like,

Okay, I've noticed this pattern in your writing that I think

could be strengthened. Noting what worked for you, what didn't

work for you. You You know, this lost my attention, as opposed to

this part was boring, you know, I I wasn't sure what was going

on in this section as opposed to this chapter. Was really

confusing. So really focusing on your experience as the reader, I

think, is the way to soften a lot of those, those criticisms,

yeah, an I message rather than a you

message. Yeah, exactly, well. And so I know that you've given

a lot of good advice on, like, how to get started finding

places, how to start a conversation once you get there.

But like, Do you have any sort of, like, words of wisdom to

encourage people to stay in the game and continue to try to meet

people, even if maybe the first group they go with is kind of or

they just don't feel like they're in the groove of it,

like, how do you how do you stay in there? Get back on the horse.

I think just knowing that your particular

brand of weirdo is out there and they are looking for you, like,

we're all I mean, I think we've probably all had this moment, I

hope. And if I if you haven't, then I hope you have it soon

where you meet somebody and you're just like, Where have you

been? You're awesome. Like, I wait to hang out with you more.

Like, you just click. You're like, we laugh at the same

jokes. We have the same sense of humor. We organize our

silverware drawer the same way, or whatever. That's a specific

reference. One of my good friends from college. We the

first time I, like, went over to her place and I was gonna make

we were cooking together, and I was like, oh my god, your

kitchen is organized exactly like my kitchen. We were both

like, well, we just organized it like our moms did. Like, did our

moms know each other? Like, I don't know. It was just this

weird point of connection.

Anyways, yeah, yeah. That's not one that you

hear about every day.

Yeah. So that's my my words of wisdom. If you have

not found that person yet, they're out there and they are

waiting to meet you. And so there's, there's just, it's a

huge, huge world of writers. We're very lucky to live in

Portland, where there's a huge community. But if you live in a

place where there aren't as many writers, there's online, you

know, there's discords and slack groups and all sorts of, you

know, forums that you can start to connect with people in social

media and then maybe get invited into this forum. Or, you know,

there are ways of finding people online. There's online write

ins, online writing workshops and online. What's the word?

Conferences, different conferences where, you know,

they might have, like, a mixer event, where you can actually

zoom with people and get a chance to talk with them really

briefly, or you can, you know, be chatting in the comments of a

call.

Yeah, no, there is that big online

element, like, I have an entire part of my constellation with

people that I have never met in person, and they're honestly

that's that's been one of the most helpful, like, cheerleading

sections that I've ever had, which I think is completely

necessary, even if you know you need the intense feedback and,

like, the brutally honest feedback, but I think you also

need people to be like, Yay, you're going on the right

direction, like we like what you're doing, and that's lovely.

Yeah, you definitely do. I mean, I having

a writer group chat, yeah, it's so great, because you'd be like,

Ah, today is frustrating. And they're like, you've got it,

girl. And then, you know, you're like, I had this really

frustrating experience with an agent or whatever, and you can

complain about it in the writer about it in the writer chat, and

it stays there. Hopefully there's been some that are like,

you know, people are leaking, like, Oh, she said this. And

like, that's,

there's that whole reader chat. The kidney

story from a few years ago comes to mind.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Make sure you trust

people.

But yeah, be a trustworthy. Person and find

other trustworthy people when you can exactly this is lovely.

Is there anything just maybe not related to this book, but is

there anything out there in the writerly world that you're

excited about right now?

There's such a proliferation of these little

conferences lately that's probably the thing, and

obviously still kind of related to this topic, but that's the

thing that I'm kind of most excited about. You know, some of

my favorite indie educator people like Becca Syme and

Claire Taylor, like they're running their own little mini

conferences and mini summits, and you're just like, oh, this

is so cool that people are creating these containers for

communities to gather, and they're just there are so many

of them on so many topics. And whatever you write, whatever

your sub genre, whatever non fiction, fiction, whatever your

goals are, like, there's probably a little conference,

even maybe near you or in your like corner of the world.

So I was not aware that sounds wonderful.

Oh yeah. I mean, like I was saying the Southwest

Washington Writers Association Conference is just like, I

didn't even know there was a that association. Like, you

know, there's, that's maybe another thing that we haven't

mentioned is there's a bunch of different associations and

organizations like as I've gotten into thrillers, I've

joined Sisters in Crime, and the chapter I joined has, like,

virtual meetings once a month and little write ins, and

they're a very fun, active chapter. So you can probably

find an association, even if you're not published, that that

you could kind of plug yourself into and see if you can meet

people who would join your constellation. Awesome.

Well, speaking of plugs, where can people find

you? Any newsletters? Where can they find your book? Just lay it

on us. Yeah.

So my hub on the internet is Jesse quack.com it's

J, E, S, S, I, E, K, W, A, K, and I also, I have a weekly

newsletter that I send out that's called the story rebel

digest. And it's basically, it's, it is aimed more toward

like storytelling in business and marketing, and like

nonfiction books and just kind of the trends I'm seeing there,

and interesting things to be thinking about. And there's

always, like a deep dive article that I write, and it's about

whatever storytelling and business and marketing. So

that's that's fun. If people are interested in that, come find

that you you can link to it through jessuprack.com I also

have story hyphen, rebel.com that where I write my articles.

Okay, yeah, no, I've been enjoying your

newsletter quite a lot. Oh, thank you good one. Yeah. All

right. Well, anything else you want

to say, no, just thank you so much for having me

on. And I really hope this inspires people to get out and

meet another writer. I think so.

I think it will. I'm confident. It's like

I'm even I who do know writers already, it just makes me want

to meet more. Thank you so much for coming back. It was lovely

to speak with you, and hope to see you

soon. Yeah. Thank you so much.

You can find both me and hybrid pub scout on

LinkedIn, my website, hybridpubscout.com or on blue

sky at Emilyeino, I know or you can email me

emily@hybridpubscout.com and be sure to check the show notes for

links referenced in the episode, as well as ones to Sign up for

plotter with the HPS affiliate code HPs And to visit HPs

bookshop.org, shop. Thanks for listening.