Keywords

Resilience - Autonomic Nervous System - Nature - Martial Arts - Human Biology

In this episode of Resilience Unravelled Frank Forencich, an internationally recognised leader in health and performance education with black belt rankings in karate and aikido talks about the autonomic nervous system and its influence on our health and performance, as well as our relationship with the natural world.

Frank introduces two African concepts: ubuntu, which refers to social identity and group membership, and biophilia, which is an innate love for nature, and he discusses the concept of biophilia and its importance for humans to connect with nature in order to thrive. The conversation also touches upon the importance of debate and dialogue in resolving conflicts, using examples from martial arts such as Aikido where opponents harmonise with each other's movements rather than fight against them.

Frank shares the importance of meditation, relaxation, exercise, and sleep for overall health. He also talks about his book 'The Enemy is Never Wrong' which is aimed at educating young activists on strategies and tactics for making a difference in the world. He emphasises the need to approach activism as medicine, as it can have positive effects on mental health and well-being.

Main topics

• The study of human history and how people perceive the world.
• How to turn on the autonomic nervous system at the appropriate moment to avoid chronic stress.
• How martial arts develop the whole person and help people understand the environment to take appropriate action.
• The importance of education and not criticising the enemy
• The need for engagement to improve people’s health.
• The lost art of conversation and verbal dexterity and the importance of harmony in martial arts to avoid conflict.
• The value of sleep.

Timestamps

1: Introduction and Background. The host introduces the guest, Frank Forencich, and asks about his background in martial arts and human biology. - 00:00-01:10

2: Martial Arts and Philosophy. Frank talks about how martial arts is about understanding the world and taking appropriate action, and how this philosophy is present in Eastern culture and philosophy - 01:10-06:17

3: Ecology and Understanding Our Place in the World. Frank discusses the importance of understanding our place in the natural world and how modern ecological science is telling us this story - 06:17-09:34

4: Human Animal and Physiology. Frank explains why he uses the term "human animal" and how it relates to his background in human biology and physiology - 09:34-12:56

5: The Enemy is Never Wrong. Frank talks about his book, which is written for young activists, and emphasises the importance of being fluid and adaptable in conflict situations - 12:56-18:29

6: Engaging in the World. Frank discusses the importance of engagement and how it can improve our health and verbal dexterity - 18:29-23:04

7: Dialogue and Debate. Frank talks about the lost art of conversation and how dialogue is more effective than debate in conflict situations - 23:04-27:18.

8: Conclusion - 27:18-28:40

Action items

Check out Frank's website at https://www.exuberantanimal.com or get social with him on Facebook or Twitter.

His book is The Enemy is Never Wrong: Martial Art, Activism, and the Fight for a Functional Future.

Hi, and welcome back to Resilience Unravelled. It's a joy to meet my next guest, my new guest sitting resplendent in front of me, with his dinner jacket, pink bow tie and a pair of floppy ears. He's not really, he's looking marvellous.

Hi.

It's Frank Forencich. How are you doing, Frank?

I am doing great. Glad to be with you.

You well, it's a joy to meet you. And I'm detecting from that fantastic accent of yours that you're probably from over the pond. Where in the world are you?

Yes, that might be a California accent, but I'm currently living in Bend, Oregon. So west coast of the US. And that's where I've spent most of my life. I've travelled a bit, but this is a good home now.

Yeah, very good. Well, tell us a little bit about yourself, what it is that you do.

Right. Well, I have a long history in the martial arts, and I've been a passionate student of the human body for many years. And I've studied human history on the ground by actually going to Africa and going out with some authentic hunter gatherers and reading heavily about human history and that kind of thing. So, what I've tried to do is put all of that together into one approach, and it's been a really interesting journey. So, I'm fascinated with how the human body works.

So what's the fascination?

Well, my latest interest is in the world of stress, and I'm very interested in the autonomic nervous system, because that is ancient system in the body, and it's extremely influential. Over every cell, every process in the body is touched by the autonomic nervous system. And what makes it really interesting is the fact that it's driven in large measure by story and perception. How we look at the world and how we answer a simple question about, is my world friendly or not? And that will fire the autonomic system in one way or the other. And that makes a big difference in how we experience our lives in the state of our health and the state of our performance.

So for those that don't know, would you just unpack the autonomic nervous system.

Right. And in a way, it's very easy to understand because there are two main branches to the autonomic system, and one branch drives physical action and engagement in the world. And that's everybody's heard about the fight flight response. And that's when the organism perceives a threat and goes into action. And every system of the body is maximized for that kind of physical engagement. But then the other branch of the autonomic is all about healing and tissue repair, putting everything back together. It's actually a very simple system. It works like a teeter totter. One branch is on, the other one is off, and you go back and forth between the two. So the trick then is to turn the system on at the appropriate moment. And then to turn it off.

Russell 03.33

So you're not getting involved in a chronic stress situation.

Yeah.

And what you're describing there, of course is a very maligned term, stress, because actually, in the good old days when I was a lad, it wasn't called stress. It was called stress or distress. So, it made it clear that actually stress is a natural function that goes out of kilter from time to time. And I'm guessing if you're in the martial arts, you become more aware of your body, its physiology, and the way that not just the autonomic nervous system. works, but also the hormonal systems as well and how they generate energy and outcomes from your body. So, can you speak a little bit more about the martial arts side of things?

Right, well, there's huge diversity in the martial art world and very many teachers with different purposes. But for most traditional teachers, it's all about developing the whole person. The whole person in context of the world. So, it's about sensing the world. It's about understanding the world and then taking appropriate action. So, in order to take appropriate action, you have to understand the nature of your environment and your habitat. And that's job number one, you might say, for the martial art, is having enough sensitivity to know the trajectory of the people and the processes around you and then being creative enough to come up with the appropriate response. And that's a lifetime endeavour. And it's just fascinating, and it's a wonderful world. The problem is it's often misunderstood, and modern culture doesn't really know what to do with the martial arts. So, it becomes entertainment or it becomes can you be a real badass?

That's one of the popular themes. But it's really not that. It's about being a whole person.

Yes. And a whole person who exists within a world and I think sometimes we have very little sense of what the world is that we live in. We blindly sort of wander through being in our daily commute, going to work, generating profits, somebody else coming home, having something to eat, no idea where the food comes from. And often in the States full of chemicals and hormones and God knows what, we don't seem to exhibit our natural place in the world anymore. And I've always thought martial arts and that whole Buddhist, and the Eastern culture puts you more in tune with the natural world.

And this was a theme throughout Eastern culture, eastern philosophy, this idea of skill. Skill and appropriate response to conditions. And this is something that shows up in Taoism, in Buddhism and throughout the east. And that's something that people in the west just really don't realize. We think of those as religions, but really those were attitudes and philosophies for living an effective life and to be connected to the world that you inhabit. And we've lost a lot of that and I mean, understandably so. Some of it's about change and moving forward as a human race, but I just wonder how much we lose by not being in touch with the natural world, understanding our place, in another word, the apex predator, but understanding the other organized organisms in that sort of chain. We see everything as food, basically, instead of something to be eaten, subjugated, or used for entertainment, rather than just appreciating something as it is.

And that's been catastrophic for not just the environment and the plants and animals of the world, but our own experience. And inevitably, when you study martial arts, you get pulled into these issues about habitat and environmentalism and conservation and the position of humans in that hierarchy, you might say. So what we see in the modern world, and in the west in particular, is this idea of human supremacy and the idea that humans are somehow the alpha creation on this planet. And that takes us out of communion with the rest of the world. And the paradox there is that by exalting humans as the alpha animal on the world, it actually puts us in a really terrible position because it feeds our anxiety and our sense of separation, and it fosters an attitude by which we could do even more damage to the world. So somehow, we got to get down off that pedestal of human supremacy and start mingling with the other creatures of the world.

Yes, but that's a challenge, isn't it?

Yeah.

How do you think we will achieve that? How will that happen?

Well, the story is out there, the narrative is out there. And this is something that Native and Indigenous people are telling us over and over again, is you have to honour the circle of life. And that story needs to become more commonplace, and we need to tell that story to one another more often. And what's really interesting is that it's not just Native and Indigenous people who are telling this story of interdependence. It's also modern science is telling us the same story. Modern ecological science in particular is telling us this story. And we need to keep that story in circulation.

Yeah, fascinating. And, I mean, your website is all about the human animal, and what's fascinating is you're talking about physiology, and I wonder whether we sort of lost touch with this concept of physiology because we're so obsessed with feelings and emotions and psychology and philosophy. The sort of physiology side of our health and well-being seems to be neglected, doesn't it? I mean, there's mass contradiction about food and health and nutrition, and there's so many fads running across as if that we don't really understand the mechanics of how food works.

Right. And you've got a journalist over in the UK, George Monvail, and he writes about this in great detail, about how we've forgotten our agricultural roots. We think that food comes from the store and it's not just little kids who think that milk just comes out of a carton. It's basically all of us. And there's so much distance now between our food and our experience of eating the food that yes, we don't have any idea. The other problem is that we've come to focus so much on the individual, and the individual experience in the modern world. And the whole health and fitness world now is aimed very exclusively at the individual, and that's historically abnormal. We are a tribal species, we are a hyper social animal, and we need to think of ourselves in those terms. But a lot of modern messaging is aimed at the individual, and even modern medical practice is aimed at the individual as well. So we are kind of narcissists in a way, and that's part of our separation anxiety.

Yes. That's interesting, isn't it? It's fascinating. So, you talk a lot about the human animal. Tell me more about why you use that term. I mean, it's obvious why, but from your own words, as it were.

Right. Well, when I was at university, I was at Stanford, and my undergrad degree was in human biology. And this is how my professors talked. They talked about humans as animals. And when they referred to other creatures, it was always, these are non-human animals. That was my training, to look at people that way. And it's a very valuable orientation. When I advise people or consult people in organizations how to get along with one another, I say, you want to treat people like animals? And they think I'm joking, of course, because we use that term as pejorative. We say, well, they treated us like animals, they treated us terribly. But no, the point is, when you're working with other human beings, you got to take care of the animal first, because the animal body is what's driving so much of our behaviour and our decisions.

And if you leapfrog over the body, if you leapfrog over the animal, you're going to miss a huge amount of potential. So, treat people like animals.

Yeah.

That's a fascinating way of thinking about I quite like that way of thinking about it. There's a couple of words on your website I love. I'm a fan of words. There's ubuntu and biophilia. Which one are you going to talk us through first?

Well, ubuntu is a great one, and I love it because it's very simple and it's an African word and it refers to their social philosophy and their idea of social identity. And it's a very egalitarian point of view. It's a way of thinking of ourselves as members of a group, first and foremost. So, when people talk about ubuntu, they say we are people through other people. Or the other expression you hear sometimes is I am who I am because of who we are. And this is not just Africa. This is native people around the world having similar orientation toward the tribe toward the group, which makes sense in terms of human history, because when you're living on the grassland and you're surrounded by predators, you need other people to stay alive. And it's obvious. So, we've lost that orientation. We've become more individualized, more narcissistic. We've lost this ubuntu philosophy.

Yeah. Fascinating. Yes. And it's fascinating. I think that why wouldn't we reconnect with African ideas? Because arguably not arguably, we sort of descend from tribes in Africa, so why not reconnect with our sort of spiritual and physiological past? It's important, isn't it? Because that was the birthplace of everything, really, isn't it?

Right.

And what about biophilia on your site? It's love of life. But that's quite interesting because there are a lot of human beings who I suppose that's animal concept, isn't it? Love of life, maybe. Is that thinking behind that?

Well, this comes from the biologist EO Wilson, and he wrote a couple of books about biophilia. And what he saw in humans was this innate tendency to affiliate with life itself and with other life forms, this biophilia love of life. And it makes sense, I think, when humans are in natural conditions, or anything approaching a natural condition, we want to go out and see plants and animals. And that is something that we normally identify with. And the problem is, in modern urban environments, if we don't see and feel and touch the living world, then our biophilia kind of fades into the background and we become lesser, we become divorced and alienated from the very thing that gives us life. So biophilia is a great word.

That's a brilliant word. So I know you're here to talk about a book that you've written, which is fantastic, but it's fascinating to hear this perspective. It's something that we don't hear enough, this sort of physiological way of thinking. I think it's absolutely fascinating. So, tell us about the new book and who's it written for.

Right, well, the book is written for young people, young activists in particular and it came to me when I began to realise that I wanted to be more engaged in the world as an activist. And I realised I didn't really have any training for that. I went through the school system and there was really no instruction on how to be an activist, how to change the world. And in fact, if you come from a typical family, your mother said, don't fight, and your father said, don't lose, and that was it. That was the totality of our martial education. And so, it's no wonder that when we reach adulthood, we flounder, we encounter conflict. We don't know what to do with it. We try and avoid it. We try and be nice and escape conflict, and it never works. So, we don't have this education. And that's what the book is all about, is educating young activists, strategies, tactics, philosophies of ways to make a difference in the world. And of course, that means dealing with conflict.

Okay, so before we get to the conflict bit, which I'm a big fan of, give us some ideas about what the book contains. What sort of strategies is it talking about when it's talking about activism?

Well, first and foremost, it's an orientation, and it goes to the title of the book, The Enemy Is Never Wrong. And this is something I learned in the traditional martial arts. I had a teacher who we would be in the dojo, and he would instruct us in a particular movement or exercise that we would do with a partner. And everybody's a little bit unpredictable so Sensei tells you to throw a punch with your left hand, but maybe somebody messes up and throws a punch with a right hand. Or maybe they try and kick it doesn't matter. They do something that's unpredictable. And Sensei is saying, remember, the enemy is never wrong. In other words, don't get emotionally wrapped up in the fact that your enemy did something wrong. Unpredictable, different, unethical, whatever it is, your enemy just is. And it's your job to be fluid and adapt to whatever the raw material is for that experience. It's a great concept.

It's a fascinating concept. And I hadn't realised that I must have picked that up in Zeitgeist because I've written a new book around fluidic leadership, and it's actually about that. You deal with people where they are, not where you wish they were, because actually their map of the world says what they're doing is working for them. So why would you argue with them? You've got to seek to educate, not seek to criticize, because actually, it's just information where someone throwing a punch is just a piece of information. It's not a moral concept or an insult to your bitterness anyway.

Okay, so that makes sense. I like that idea. In terms of activism, are you sort of one of those people that's advocating gluing yourself to the carpet and all that sort of stuff sitting in front of cars on the motorway? Or is it a more subtle thing around activism?

In a sense. It depends on the context and the people involved and the objectives involved. It's hard to make a blanket statement about any person's tactics. but I do think the time has come for some pretty assertive actions by people in general. And I think we do need to speak truth to some of these most egregious acts that are taking place against the natural world people do need to step up in. What I argue for is activism and martial artistry for everyone wherever they happen to be. So, everybody's got their own unique situation, their own life, their own capabilities, their own powers within that context, learning how to step up and to be courageous and to speak truth to power, whatever your situation happens to be.

So a lot of judgment calls there.

Yeah. And it takes a degree of courage because you're not going to win all the arguments because there are many vested powerful interests often arranged against people but.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't do something, right? People sit in their living rooms, don't they, and moan about the world but then you say, well, what are you doing about it? And it's nothing, it's interesting. I've just come back from America and I find it quite interesting to hear all the malarkey about in the environment. And yet there's everyone drinking from plastic straws, there's no recycling going on, nothing's happening. And yet we're being moralised too and lectured by parts of your country. And it's like, well, look at all. Start with yourselves. Don't fix everybody else. Start your own backyard. And I think that's part of this idea, isn't it? There's a sort of an idea that people because they're given some information that's true, automatically disbelieve it and sort of go out their way to say, well, we're not going to do that then.

And I think this mindset is. I mean, it's as far away from the martial arts as you can get but it's the prevailing culture, isn't it? So how do you begin to do something about that? Is this where the conflict comes in?

Right. Well, no matter what you do to attempt change, there's going to be conflict. The status quo is there, and if you want to change it, that implies conflict. So that's always going to be part of the equation. But one approach that I advocate for is what I call activism is medicine. And the idea here is that most people look at activism. Let's say you've been inactive. Let's say you've been on the couch, and somebody comes along and said, well, maybe you should do something. The assumption that out there now is that activism is stressful, activism maybe is dangerous, activism is above all, inconvenient, it's all of these things and we think of it as a health negative but what if we're wrong about that? What if activism is actually a health positive? And there's plenty of evidence to suggest that's true. There's plenty of evidence that shows that when people act with a sense of meaning and purpose in their life, their bodies work better, the animal becomes stronger. So we need to turn our thinking around and say, look, by engaging in the world, if you do it skilfully, you can make your health better and this is, I think, a missing element. We're so busy talking about mind, body, spirit but engagement is essential as well.

Yeah, but yes, interesting. And also, the idea, like the idea that a lot of people are doing that thing where actually when you're being an active this, you're taking some of those bigger things into your own sense of self control. So that reduces anxiety as well because you might have fear, but of the repercussions the consequences, but the anxiety drops simply because you're exhibiting control of your own state and your own environment. I think the idea of conflict is different in different places.

And I was minded of a story in the States recently about someone who went outside and was shooting a gun at the beginning during the night, and someone went out and remonstrated and that conflict ended up with the family being dead. And I think that does affect people. I think that does frighten people. And I think sometimes you're dealing with people whose exhibit might rather than argue but that's not a reason to stop. It's a way to reengage and think about doing it differently.

Right. There is so much fear in the system now, especially in the US. But I think that's generally true. I think Carl Jung would say that there's a lot of fear coursing through the collective unconscious, fear, and stress. And so of course, people are behaving badly and it's not a surprise to see that. So, one of the first priorities is to relax and to practice. All of these things that we hear about all the time, whether it's meditation, get more sleep, get more exercise. All of these practices are really valuable to dampen the fear, dampen the reactivity, and make us better at engaging the world.

That's really interesting. I'm surprised you said that. Of all the things I thought you were going to come up with, that was not the thing I thought, because there's a sort of a move over here and the oracle idea, which is actually we should be teaching people to debate. And when you teach people to debate, you teach people to see both sides of an argument. And I think that's the thing we've lost. We've lost verbal dexterity. We've lost people who are coming out the military and they don't have the wherewithal to be able to handle those things because they've used a different form of force. And American politics has lost the art of debate. The media has, because you just have a view and you shout it as loudly as you possibly can. And I just wonder whether it's the concept of debate that we're missing in our culture, this idea that lets it out in a place that is about ideas. And actually, if you win, no one's really lost because you might have won fighting the argument you didn't agree with in the first place.

Right? And I agree with all that. It makes perfect sense. We've lost the art of conversation and we've turned dialogue into debate. And that's not really fruitful usually. And there's a great metaphor that comes from the martial art Aikido. And this is considered a soft art. This is considered an art where you practice, blend in with your opponent. So, in other words, instead of meeting force with force, what you are taught to do is to harmonize with the movement of your attacker and then you can use very subtle movements to redirect the attack. And it's a great metaphor. And it all depends on you maintaining your integrity and turning your body in such a way that you align with whatever the attack is. So, in a sense, you have to get inside your opponent, see the world from his point of view or her point of view, align with that, blend with that, and then there may not even be a conflict if you see it from that perspective. So, it's an extremely valuable metaphor.

Yeah. Or you may change your own mind.

Right. And that's the point, isn't it? And this is the challenge I’m faced with. Lots of people that advocate this sort of philosophical approach, is that it's all about everybody else changing their minds to suit our view. It may well be we're wrong, it may well be that actually what we should do is go and shout, jump up and down, shout, shoot guns, be rude, abusive, march to the right, all that sort of stuff. But at least you have to be open to the concept, because if you can't be open to having a debate, then it's hard to moralize that other people that you might expect other people to change as well.

Right. And that's another reason to moderate our stress whenever we can, because stress makes us more reactive, more combative, more hostile to other viewpoints. So, meditation, relaxation, more exercise, all these things are very valuable and I missed out, sleep, which is possibly the most valuable. Brilliant. So how can people find out more about your work, Frank, and where can they get their paws on your book?

Well, you can just Google the book title, The Enemy is Never Wrong. Or you can go to the website exuberantanimal.com. There are other books there and there's links to my other projects, including activism, as medicine, and some other things I have in the works as well.

Absolutely fascinating. I've really enjoyed our time today. So, thank you so much for spending time with us.

Yeah, I really enjoyed it.

Brilliant. You take care.