Do your relationships tend to develop at a romantic comedy pace, only to get messy fast and fall apart dramatically? If you’ve struggled to find sustainable, lasting love, then this episode is for you. Learn about common pacing pitfalls that prevent couples from building stable partnerships, including red flags such as love bombing, how pacing can help you work skillfully with the “addiction” of love, and what to do when your pacing doesn’t match your partner’s.

Key Takeaways

00:00 - Intro

02:38 - What is pacing in dating? And why should we care?

19:23 - How can we pace the development of a new relationship for long-term success?

36:43 - What are signs that pacing is off in a new relationship?

50:11 - What if your pacing doesn’t match your partner’s pacing?

Resources and links

For full show notes with links, visit relationshipcenter.com/podcast

Ep. 1 - You Aren’t Crazy, Dating is Hard (Especially for Anxious Folx)

Ep. 2 - What to look for in a long-term partner

Eight Dates: Essential Conversations for a Lifetime of Love by John Gottman Ph.D., Julie Schwartz Gottman Ph.D., Doug Abrams,  and Rachel Carlton Abrams M.D.

Natalie Lue’s blog Baggage Reclaim

🤓 Prefer to read rather than listen? Check out Ep. 4 - How pacing can help you find love that lasts for a full blog post.

Have a question or comment? Email us at podcast@relationshipcenter.com. We love hearing from you!

If you’d like to work with one of the talented clinicians on our team, go to relationshipcenter.com/apply-now to apply for a free 30-minute consultation.

To get a monthly email with our best content, go to relationshipcenter.com/newsletter.

If something in this episode touched you, will you share it with a friend? That helps us reach more sweet humans like you.

Lastly, we’d love it if you would leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts. And be sure to hit subscribe while you’re there so you never miss an episode!

Hello, dear listener.

2

We're on a short break.

3

We'll be back with a new episode

next month, but while we're out,

4

we wanted to bring you one of our

favorite episodes from The Vault.

5

This is, How Pacing Can Help You Find

Love That Lasts, and it's one of our most

6

popular episodes, so we hope you enjoy it.

7

Jessica: I like to think of pacing

as working skillfully with the

8

quote unquote addiction of love.

9

So when we are connecting with someone

and dating, lots of yummy brain

10

chemicals tend to get activated.

11

Right?

12

Dopamine, serotonin, testosterone,

estrogen, oxytocin, etc.

13

And it actually lights up the same parts

of our brains as, uh, say, cocaine.

14

From the Relationship Center, I'm

psychotherapist and dating coach

15

Jessica Engle, and this is I Love

You Too, a show about how to create

16

and sustain meaningful relationships.

17

Josh: I'm professional certified coach

Josh Van Vliet, and on today's episode,

18

we're going to talk about how pacing

can help you find love that lasts.

19

We're so happy you're here, and

please remember that this show is

20

not a substitute for a relationship.

21

With a license to mental

health professional.

22

Welcome to this episode all about

pacing and how we can use pacing

23

to help find love that lasts.

24

This is, uh, I think an under

represented topic in the conversation

25

about dating and about finding love.

26

Jessica: Yes.

27

Josh: Because it makes such a

difference and, uh, nobody really, or

28

very few people are actually talking

about it in a, in a healthy way.

29

Right.

30

That's not like a set of rules like,

by this date you should do this

31

and by this date you should do this

and never do this by that time.

32

Which aren't actually all

that helpful or empowering.

33

Um, it just kind of makes us, gives

us rules to think about and then

34

makes us feel anxious if we're

not following the rules perfectly.

35

Jessica: Right.

36

Josh: So I'm really excited to

dig into this topic with you.

37

So the questions we're going to try

to answer today are what is pacing

38

in dating and why should we care?

39

How can we pace the development of a

new relationship for long term success?

40

What are the signs that pacing is off?

41

And what if you're pacing doesn't

match your partner's pacing?

42

Jessica: Those are some good questions.

43

Those

44

Josh: are some good questions.

45

So, shall we, shall we dig in?

46

Jessica: Let's do it.

47

Josh: So, what is pacing?

48

Jessica: Yes.

49

So I'm going to give you a

few different takes on pacing.

50

One way that I like to think about pacing

is mindfully adjusting the pace at which

51

we're spending time with, bonding with,

and committing to a partner so that we

52

give ourselves the best chance possible of

building a healthy long term relationship.

53

Josh: Great.

54

And so that's, that's the first.

55

Jessica: That's the first way.

56

That's the first sort of definition.

57

Keep in mind.

58

I also like to think of pacing

as the be here now of dating.

59

I know you are a big fan

of, uh, Ram Dass's work.

60

Be here now.

61

Be here now.

62

Good stuff.

63

Um, so the be here now of dating.

64

Are you present to and accepting of

the actual phase of your relationship,

65

of your dating connection?

66

Or are you jumping ahead?

67

Are you in denial of how

close you actually are?

68

Josh: Okay, so then if the first way

of thinking about it or first kind of

69

angle into it is how we adjust, kind of

calibrate to The time we're spending,

70

the ways in which we're bonding, the

kinds of activities we're doing with

71

a partner that might have us bond more

and more, the ways that we're committing

72

to a partner, kind of adjusting that

to give us the best chance possible to

73

build a healthy long term relationship.

74

Then the second piece I'm hearing

is kind of having a clear eyed

75

view on where are we currently.

76

Jessica: Right.

77

Josh: In order to be able to

skillfully attune, adjust.

78

Uh, our pacing, we have

to know where we are.

79

Jessica: Mm hmm.

80

Right.

81

And we, we want to notice whether

we're in fantasy or reality.

82

Mm hmm.

83

Right?

84

So for some people, perhaps they've

been dating someone for a couple

85

of weeks and they're already

kind of envisioning the wedding.

86

Mm hmm.

87

Or maybe they're six months in and they're

trying hard not to think about, you

88

know, the fact that it's probably about

time to start talking about marriage.

89

You know, where this is going.

90

Josh: Mm hmm.

91

Like, are we even committing

to each other in some way?

92

Are we in an exclusive

relationship or not?

93

What are we wanting there?

94

Jessica: Right.

95

That's number two.

96

Number three, I like to think of

pacing as working skillfully with

97

the quote unquote addiction of love.

98

Josh: Mm hmm.

99

Mm

100

Jessica: hmm.

101

Josh: Tell me more.

102

Jessica: Right.

103

So, when we are connecting with

someone and dating, lots of yummy brain

104

chemicals tend to get activated, right?

105

Dopamine, serotonin, testosterone,

estrogen, oxytocin, et cetera.

106

And it actually lights up the same parts

of our brains as, uh, say, cocaine.

107

Mm hmm.

108

Okay.

109

Yep.

110

Alright.

111

Alright.

112

People who've fallen in love or

lost know what I'm talking about.

113

It's sort of like you can't sleep.

114

You don't want to eat.

115

You're just kind of like

a little high, right?

116

And so, if we know that's going to

be a factor in some of our dating

117

relationships where our brain chemicals

are really, you know Uh, kind of

118

bonding us to the other person.

119

Pacing is a way to give ourselves the

space that we need to come back down

120

to earth and to really see clearly what

the relationship is capable of, what

121

the other person is, is capable of.

122

Um, with, you're still going to

have some of those chemicals in

123

your system, but, um, Less, right?

124

So we're able to kind of, um, mindfully

observe the quality of the relationship.

125

Josh: This, I think this is the part

that gets me the most excited about

126

pacing and dating because, like you're

saying, brain chemicals off the charts,

127

Jessica: you

128

Josh: know, and it's good.

129

We want that.

130

It's not a bad thing.

131

We're not saying get rid of brain

chemicals, but it does make it very

132

hard to see early on, uh, past the

brain chemicals, past the like kind of

133

addiction of love, of a new relationship.

134

Uh, to see, are we actually compatible

in the ways that we really want to be?

135

Are we, is this a healthy relationship?

136

Does this person have the qualities

that I'm looking for in a partner?

137

And how are we together to give yourself

kind of enough space, enough break from

138

the, from the brain chemicals so that you

can realistically assess that and not live

139

in the fantasy of this is crazy, I'm so

excited, this is my person, I've known

140

them for two weeks, but I already know

we're going to get married and have babies

141

when you maybe actually haven't seen if

that's, there's real compatibility there.

142

Jessica: Right.

143

Exactly.

144

Yeah, you're in that altered state and.

145

If we are looking for a long term

relationship, making a decision

146

based off of our lust, it's not

often going to lead us, uh, where

147

we want to be in the long term.

148

And that lust, you know, neurochemically,

that all of those yummy chemicals are

149

going to reduce, right, by about a year

in, uh, they find that, for example, men's

150

testosterone levels, uh, stabilize back to

where they were before meeting a partner.

151

Mm hmm.

152

And so piecing is a way to kind of,

uh, yeah, ground ourselves and assess

153

things not from the, the lust mindset.

154

Josh: Right.

155

And it, and it's, it's about

finding that balance though, right?

156

It's because we don't, we don't want

to be so in that addictive brain space.

157

That we're not thinking clearly, but

neither do we want to shut down all

158

of that because that's important.

159

Jessica: Yes.

160

Josh: You know, an important

experience and it's also fun.

161

I mean, we want to enjoy connecting, so we

don't want to shut it down so much that we

162

don't have any kind of any of that energy.

163

Jessica: Yeah, I appreciate

you pointing that out.

164

And I think for some people, pacing

means slowing themselves down.

165

And for, for other people, it means

actually leaning in and allowing

166

themselves to go a little bit faster

than they might be comfortable going.

167

Josh: Yeah.

168

Yeah.

169

And so it feels like we've kind of

answered why we should care about pacing

170

a little bit in this, but is there more

that you, you want to say about that?

171

I

172

Jessica: do.

173

Yeah.

174

So.

175

When we're piecing, we're really sort

of shepherding our nervous system

176

through that naturally stimulating

process of dating in a way that supports

177

you to make mindful, wise decisions.

178

Without it, we're kind of, we're

at risk of either attaching to a

179

person who won't ultimately be a

good fit for us or not attaching

180

to somebody who will be a good fit.

181

Josh: So both ends of that

spectrum, what you were saying.

182

Just a moment ago about we're either

so head over heels in the fantasy

183

that we attach to somebody who

ultimately is not, not good for us.

184

Jessica: Mm hmm.

185

Josh: Or we miss the opportunity because

we're, we're not attaching at all.

186

We're not engaging enough to, to

build connection, build intimacy.

187

Jessica: Right.

188

To allow our attachment

systems to get intertwined.

189

Mm hmm.

190

Mm hmm.

191

Exactly.

192

Um, I think with piecing, this is

important because if we're going too

193

fast, we may actually be skipping

over vital early developmental

194

tasks in the relationship.

195

So we're failing to really form a solid

foundation upon which our relationship

196

can really flourish through all the

ups and downs of long term love.

197

Josh: What's an example of some

of these early developmental

198

tasks that you're talking about?

199

Jessica: Yeah, so perhaps maybe a few

weeks in, um, you are feeling a need

200

for a little bit of time to yourself

and let's say that your partner reached

201

out to you and was really excited about

seeing you, um, and you decide to just

202

go with that energy and just kind of,

you merge with them, essentially, um,

203

versus an alternate approach would be to

express that need for, uh, a little bit

204

of space to kind of come back to yourself.

205

When you do that, you and your partner

get to see what it's like for you to have

206

varying needs and to start to, uh, Okay.

207

And you get to see in that moment and

you get to start to build safety within

208

your two person psychological system,

uh, where your nervous systems get to

209

learn that it's okay for you to have a

different need from the other person and

210

that you can trust the other person will

join you in a spirit of collaboration.

211

Okay.

212

If you don't start to share what

you're needing until months, years

213

in, you're really skipping over

the part of the relationship where

214

you build that kind of muscle.

215

Josh: That, that muscle of, we are

different people, even though we are

216

kind of, in some sense, merging into

this two person psychological system.

217

Jessica: And

218

Josh: at the same time, we do

have different needs sometimes.

219

And how does our system respond to that?

220

Are we able to acknowledge and

hold those needs with kindness and

221

compassion and get creative about

how to meet our different needs?

222

Or do we really struggle?

223

Does one person feel like the other

person is abandoning them, for example,

224

and have a very intense level of anxiety?

225

That, uh, causes them to, you know,

go, go forward or kind of go towards

226

the person even when they're not ready

for that and have a very difficult

227

time tending to each other's needs.

228

Jessica: Right.

229

Exactly.

230

Yeah.

231

So, um, really giving the relationship

time and space to build that foundation

232

of trust, of reciprocity, of safety.

233

I also really like to think of piecing

as a way to Um, consciously use dating to

234

heal trauma, to heal interpersonal wounds.

235

When we pace, we get to really be

present with what rises up for us when

236

we're doing the courageous thing of

getting close to another human being.

237

And if we're going, uh, on autopilot,

very fast, or perhaps very slow, We're

238

not giving our system enough both safety

and risk or challenge to bring up the

239

material that is asking to be healed.

240

Mm hmm.

241

Now, I know that was a

little bit abstract, so, um,

242

maybe I can give an example.

243

Josh: Yeah.

244

Please.

245

Jessica: Okay, well let's imagine that

somebody's grown up with a single parent

246

who is emotionally kind of distant,

and so they enter into adulthood with

247

more of an avoidant attachment style.

248

So they tend to distance from others in

relationship, and they tend to feel maybe

249

a little bit consumed in relationship.

250

Now, pacing for this person, their

automatic pacing might be, I'm going to

251

go on a first date and then I'm going

to wait a week to reach out to that

252

person, even if I'm interested in them.

253

Mm hmm.

254

Okay?

255

So, if I know that my tendency

is to wait a long time.

256

And I'm wanting to really

challenge myself, I might text

257

a few days after the first date.

258

Okay?

259

And after doing that, it may be that

some of my fears about being, uh, you

260

know, sort of consumed by a relationship.

261

They get activated, okay, and that's not

a bad thing because it actually allows

262

us to look at what happens for us when

we try to get close to someone, but in

263

a contained way, in a conscious way.

264

So that person can then take those

thoughts and feelings to their therapist,

265

to their to a friend, to their journal,

whatever their practice is, and really

266

start to feel into whatever it is

that is getting kicked up and that

267

is asking to be felt and released.

268

Josh: I think that's such a, uh, a

powerful frame that you, you bring to

269

this, to this conversation about pacing,

pacing as how it can be useful for healing

270

trauma around relationships and that.

271

So, you know, part of what I,

what I imagine is really important

272

here is that calibration of the

right amount of stimulation.

273

Jessica: That

274

Josh: if we, if we go into something

too quickly It might bring up so much

275

stuff that we can't actually process it,

it just kind of overwhelms our system.

276

Jessica: Right.

277

Josh: And there isn't that, that room

for the reprocessing, for healing,

278

for reflection on what came up.

279

Jessica: Yeah.

280

Josh: It's just like, boom.

281

Jessica: Absolutely.

282

Josh: And if we don't engage at

all, right, if you're saying, like

283

you're saying, like this person

who waits a week, they're not

284

stretching their system at all.

285

It also doesn't bring up that things we

have to kind of find that sweet spot of

286

enough to bring up what's there for us

to look at, but not so much that we're

287

overwhelmed and can't actually process it.

288

Jessica: That's right.

289

Yeah.

290

And I, I definitely recommend our dating

is hard episode, which goes over that

291

three step process for really noticing

where we are and choosing based on

292

where our nervous system is, how much

to challenge, how much to soothe,

293

and then integrating all of that.

294

Mm hmm.

295

I think this is one of the best ways

to turn dating into something that,

296

uh, we find valuable regardless of

the outcome of a particular date,

297

um, because it's a journey of growth.

298

Josh: You know I'm a

big fan of that frame.

299

Jessica: I do.

300

So, uh, Pacing can be used to

really consciously heal trauma.

301

I also think that pacing gives you

really important information about your

302

love interest's capacity to respond to

your needs with care and compassion.

303

It's a great way to assess, is this a

relationship master or a relationship

304

disaster in the Gottman framework.

305

Right?

306

So, when we get clear on our own pacing,

oh, maybe I need a little bit more space,

307

or oh, you know, actually, maybe I want

to reach out and connect with this person.

308

That feels right for me.

309

When you get clear on that and

communicate it, you get to really

310

notice how your partner responds.

311

Are they respectful?

312

Um, are they friendly?

313

Perhaps, uh, saying yes, but also

their behavior kind of indicates

314

they're uncomfortable with it.

315

Are they pushing you for something else?

316

All of that is not only helpful for kind

of seeing how they are in relationship.

317

I think it's also can

daylight red flags, right?

318

So we've got lots of people in the

world who are wounded and we've got

319

People in the world who are, you know,

narcissistic or even sociopathic,

320

and they are sometimes in the dating

field, I don't love to scare people in

321

that way, but I've seen a lot of our

clients, you know, come across people

322

who they want what they want and can't

be respectful of the other person.

323

So they'll do things like love bombing,

which we'll talk about in a little bit.

324

Um, so if you're clear on your own pacing

and you are communicating it, you get to

325

use the feedback from drawing that line

in the sand, uh, and help that to filter.

326

Josh: Yeah, this is, I think,

such a, you know, it links well,

327

I think, to our episode about what

to look for in a long term partner.

328

Because this is the place, this is where

you get to start to see, is that present?

329

Are those qualities that I'm

looking for present in this

330

relationship with this person?

331

And

332

you know, it's a little bit trite, but

actions speak louder than words, right?

333

How does somebody respond in, in the

relationship is, is more indicative

334

than what they're going to say.

335

Jessica: Right.

336

Josh: And hopefully those things

match up, uh, but this, this is

337

really important information.

338

Jessica: Absolutely.

339

Josh: Um, beautiful.

340

So hopefully we've, uh, persuaded you

that pacing is something that's worth

341

checking out here, worth engaging

in, in your dating life if you're

342

looking for a long term relationship.

343

So thank you.

344

How do we do it?

345

Jessica: Yes.

346

How to pace the development of a new

relationship for long term success.

347

So first and foremost, I want to

just say that to pace effectively,

348

we have to pause regularly.

349

Josh: To pace effectively,

we must pause regularly.

350

I like that.

351

Jessica: Yeah.

352

Reminds me a little bit of the tongue

twisters that we do before episodes.

353

To pause, pace effectively,

pause regularly.

354

Uh, so, first and foremost, I really

want to encourage y'all to establish

355

a regular practice that really allows

you to take time out from your dating

356

life to process and to connect with

your feelings and needs and truth.

357

That could be journaling or

meditation or a friend, a therapist.

358

We need to have time to really come

back to ourselves and to kind of

359

assess what's happening in order

to really tune into our own pace.

360

Josh: So the purpose of that reflection

process, whether it's solo or with support

361

or friend, is to Tune into your own

pacing, what you're wanting, what you're

362

needing in the relationship, what you're

ready for, what you're not yet ready for.

363

Do I have that right?

364

Jessica: Yes.

365

That's correct.

366

Right.

367

So, I'll give you an example.

368

Um, a client of mine finds that when

she goes on dates, more often than not,

369

she just kind of falls for the person.

370

Yeah.

371

Yeah.

372

She's, you know, her heart's, you know, so

eager, hungry for love and, um, she'll get

373

on dates and Just really enjoy someone.

374

And we've talked about it, and

you know, what she's noticed is

375

that by like day two or three, she

kind of feels like herself again.

376

Right?

377

And so, one of our practices has been

within that time frame, she's writing.

378

She's looking at her ideal mate list,

you can see the, uh, what to look for

379

in a long term relationship episode

for a link to that, so like her list

380

of what am I looking for in a person,

and or she'll have a conversation with

381

me, and based on that, some of the

time when she looks back and kind of

382

tunes into what's happening for her,

she realizes like, You know, there were

383

a couple things that actually, this

person, I'm like, you know, I definitely

384

got a crush on them, but I'm noticing

this, this, and this didn't quite work.

385

And I'm noticing that my nervous system

is actually feeling like a little bit

386

uncertain about this person, right?

387

And from there, she can really

make decisions about does she want

388

to go on another date with him.

389

Josh: I love that.

390

That's so smart.

391

Jessica: So that's number one.

392

Pause regularly, okay, so that you

can really tune into your sort of

393

your natural pacing in relationship

to each individual person.

394

Number two, know your pacing tendencies.

395

Josh: Yes.

396

Yes.

397

Yeah, this is, I think this is, this

is really important because As we

398

were saying earlier, it's gonna vary

for each person what may be needed.

399

I know for me, in my dating life, I was

like your client where I was like falling

400

head over heels with somebody really

quickly and, you know, kind of jumping in

401

before I'd really had a chance to assess.

402

And for me, it was really important

to learn to slow myself down a little

403

bit so that I could really do this

process that you're talking about.

404

But for someone else, It

may be a different story.

405

So yeah, tell me more about your

dating, your pacing tendencies.

406

Jessica: Yeah.

407

So I think really identifying where

do I land on the pacing spectrum?

408

Okay.

409

Am I, do I tend to go super fast

or do I perhaps go Too slow.

410

Or am I inconsistent?

411

That's that's also quite common.

412

Okay.

413

So you know, really looking at depending

on where I am on the spectrum, do I

414

actually need to take the risk of slowing

down and being in the not knowing, right?

415

That would be for someone more like

you described yourself as or my client.

416

Or do, Do I need to take the risk

of spending more time together or

417

revealing more of my inner world?

418

Increasing commitment, right?

419

So that's for people who are maybe

more in the kind of avoidance stance,

420

a little slower to, uh, say yes.

421

Josh: And how, how would

you, how would someone know?

422

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, my

guess is they would know.

423

I think most people kind of

424

Josh: Have a sense.

425

Jessica: Have a sense.

426

Yeah.

427

Um, and they've probably gotten

feedback from other people.

428

Yeah.

429

Like, whoa, that's pretty fast.

430

Or, you know, man, like, if you

want to build a relationship,

431

you probably should call her.

432

Right?

433

Now, if you don't know,

talk with somebody.

434

Josh: Yeah.

435

Jessica: Yeah.

436

Talk to a therapist, dating coach.

437

Uh, get, get their thoughts on it.

438

Josh: Someone who can give you kind of an

objective, uh, third party perspective.

439

Jessica: Yeah.

440

And

441

Josh: like,

442

Jessica: how is

443

Josh: this?

444

How is this landing for you?

445

And help you understand for yourself.

446

How is it working for your system,

447

Jessica: what you're currently doing?

448

Yeah, absolutely.

449

Yeah, and another thing to think about,

you know, I mentioned earlier, like,

450

there are some people who go too fast

and some people who go too slow, and

451

some people who, um, jump around.

452

So they're not consistent with their pace.

453

And that often is related to, um,

insecure attachment styles, uh, or trauma.

454

So one other, uh, challenge for your

tendency, depending on how consistent

455

you are with your pace, is, you know,

what would it look like to take the

456

risk of adopting a steady pace and

acting as if that steady pace is, um,

457

natural for you, even if your insides

are saying, run or saying, go faster.

458

Right.

459

So

460

that's number two.

461

Josh: Okay.

462

Jessica: We have pause regularly,

know your pacing tendencies.

463

Number three is consider and

consciously choose the timing

464

common relationship milestones.

465

Josh: Yeah.

466

I feel like this is, this is the one that

people often think about as pacing, right?

467

It's like, When do we first kiss?

468

When do we first make love?

469

When do we commit to being exclusive?

470

Jessica: Yeah.

471

Josh: Things like that.

472

So yeah, tell me more about this.

473

Jessica: Yeah, so I really encourage

y'all to really think about things that

474

have a high likelihood of deepening

your bond with the other person.

475

Okay, so we are all, we're mammals, and

we're designed to bond with other people,

476

particularly in certain circumstances.

477

So we want to be really conscious about

when we choose certain things, right?

478

I was talking earlier about those

neurochemicals, well certain

479

things, uh, you know, initiate

a whole cascade of yummy, yummy

480

chemicals pretty reliably, okay?

481

Things like a kiss.

482

Or making love.

483

Or sharing something

that's deeply vulnerable.

484

Okay.

485

So, this, you know, piecing isn't about

withholding those things, but about

486

really choosing when to incorporate them.

487

And we can do that a

couple of different ways.

488

One, we can kind of, outside of actually

being in a relationship, think to

489

ourselves, what makes sense for me?

490

for each of these different milestones.

491

What's going to be like deeply

bonding for me and kind of speed up

492

my sense of attachment to this person?

493

And kind of to think about it like,

well, if I were to put this on a timeline

494

for myself, I would put the first kiss

at, whatever, date one, date seven.

495

Um, the second strategy here is to

come back to that regular pause.

496

And to, within each relationship,

kind of sense what's right for your

497

nervous system for each milestone.

498

So it's not that you are assuming

like, well, it's date one and I

499

decided for myself that date one

is when I want to have a kiss.

500

It's more you're tuning into your

own nervous system to see, okay,

501

is date one actually when I want

to have this kiss with this person?

502

Okay.

503

Let me go over some common milestones

just so people can start to think

504

about, you know, what those are.

505

You already mentioned a few.

506

So, a first kiss, meeting friends, sex.

507

Um, I have a friend who says, uh,

essentially, I could have sex with

508

that lamp over there and I would fall

in love with it and want to marry it.

509

So, sex is a big one.

510

Uh, daily contact, right?

511

So, moving from like, ah, we're

texting once a week to calls,

512

texts, video chats, all that.

513

Uh, talking about

marriage, kids, the future.

514

And, and I would think of this one in

two different ways, just talking about it

515

kind of generally in terms of this is what

I want in my life and what do you want

516

in your life versus talking about your

vision for doing those things together.

517

Josh: Yeah, those are very

different levels of bonding.

518

Jessica: Yeah, it's like, you know.

519

For me, somebody bringing up kids

on a first date can either be a

520

green flag or a red flag, right?

521

My clients talk about it.

522

It's like, did they talk about it in

terms of, well, gosh, I'd really like

523

to have kids one day or were they like,

yeah, you seem like you'd be a great mom.

524

Josh: Right.

525

It's like, okay, slow your roll.

526

Just met you.

527

Jessica: Okay, so talking about the

future, sharing an important aspect

528

of one's life, so something like music

they make, or perhaps you really love

529

cooking, um, so cooking a meal together,

going to church together, okay, uh,

530

becoming exclusives and moving from

dating to a relationship, going on

531

a trip, meeting family, becoming one

another's emergency contact, creating

532

shared rituals, like morning or evening

rituals, uh, and moving in together.

533

Josh: I'll just throw in

there, getting engaged.

534

Jessica: Yeah,

535

Josh: and I love what you were saying

earlier that these are like common ones.

536

These are ones that are likely

to increase bonding for you.

537

And, It may be different

for each of you, right?

538

Like you may have certain things like,

oh, when I do this with somebody,

539

that actually is really significant.

540

Yes.

541

And so I want to be really thoughtful

about when I do this with a

542

potential partner or a new partner.

543

Mm hmm.

544

So you can kind of use this as a jumping

off point for looking for yourself.

545

Yeah.

546

One of those things.

547

Jessica: Absolutely.

548

Yeah.

549

Example from, from our relationship.

550

I, for me, inviting you over to

my house for the first time, that

551

for me is a very bonding act.

552

And so I was very conscious

about when I invited that.

553

Yeah.

554

Um, and I think for some people, you know,

I was just talking to a friend and he was

555

saying that he invites dates over on the

second date and that really works for him.

556

Yeah.

557

Josh: Yeah, and so there's

like such a range, right?

558

It's like, I think that's a really

important thing to acknowledge here.

559

There isn't a set relationship trajectory

that you must follow or like, you know.

560

It's really very personal to what

works for you and your system

561

and, and you with this person.

562

Jessica: Yes.

563

Exactly.

564

Josh: And so are there, uh, some things

that we can think about or questions

565

that can help us figure these things out?

566

Jessica: There are indeed.

567

I have a whole list of questions.

568

So some questions that can help you pace.

569

How much time away from

this person do I need?

570

in order to come back to myself

and think clearly about whether

571

they are a good fit for me.

572

Note that the time away may change

depending on where you are in

573

your relationship or where you

are in your own inner journey.

574

Josh: So at the beginning of

the relationship, I might be

575

like, I need a, I need a week.

576

Jessica: Mm hmm.

577

Josh: Or as you progress, it may be

like, okay, I can, I need like a day.

578

Jessica: Mm hmm.

579

Exactly.

580

Another question is what frequency,

intensity, and length of contact will

581

enable me to either challenge or soothe

my nervous system, depending on which one

582

I'm needing in my journey at that point?

583

Mm hmm.

584

Mm hmm.

585

So going back to that example of somebody

who's maybe leaning more avoidant,

586

you know, what amount of contact, what

kind of contact would actually allow

587

me to challenge myself a little bit.

588

Or, I'm checking in, I'm like, oh

no, I'm feeling kind of overwhelmed,

589

kind of flooded with my own material.

590

Um, I actually need to tune in

to how much distance I need to,

591

to really process all of that.

592

Mm hmm.

593

Mm hmm.

594

We've also got what kind of

relating will bring up enough of

595

my material without flooding me.

596

When I say material, I mean

psychological material.

597

I mean trauma material.

598

I mean attachment material.

599

Just sort of the, the inner

stuff that you have to work with.

600

Josh: Is another way of thinking about

this kind of like the level of activation

601

in my nervous system, like kind of like.

602

Jessica: Yes.

603

Josh: Anxiety or maybe shut down or maybe,

you know, whatever that kind of like

604

arousal that, you know, stress response.

605

Jessica: Yes.

606

Josh: That at a certain level, like.

607

Getting to a certain level of intimacy

kind of kicks that up and it's like,

608

ah, okay, this is uncomfortable, maybe

exciting, but also scary or kind of

609

brings up fears or things like that.

610

Jessica: Yes.

611

That's a great way to think of it.

612

Yeah.

613

Yeah.

614

Another phrase people might be

familiar with is window of tolerance.

615

Right, so am I kind of like, filled up

enough with the activation or the emotions

616

or things to really process without being

like, uh, underwhelmed or overwhelmed?

617

Another question would be, am I ready

to fall in love with this person?

618

Josh: How would we go

about answering that?

619

How would someone know that they're

ready to fall in love with someone?

620

Jessica: Yeah, the way that I like

to think of this one is like, kind

621

of like, do I have the information,

do I have enough information to

622

tell me it's a worthwhile risk to

let myself fall for this person?

623

So do I know enough about their

character, do I know enough about our

624

shared values, that sort of thing.

625

To justify, uh, uh, uh.

626

you know, pressing the gas pedal

down and bonding in a way that very

627

well may lead to me falling for them.

628

Josh: Right, because we're kind of

balancing the pain of the heartbreak if

629

we learn later it's not the right fit

with the excitement and the possibility

630

of what if it is the right fit.

631

And at a certain point, We hit

the gas pedal too early and we're,

632

the ratio of risk reward is, is

much higher on the risk side.

633

We just don't have enough

information to really say, is

634

this person a potential good fit?

635

Jessica: Right.

636

Josh: Uh.

637

Jessica: Mm hmm.

638

We've also got, what would I need

to know to dive in with both feet?

639

Josh: That feels like it's like the

question to help you know if you're

640

ready to fall in love with somebody.

641

Jessica: Yeah.

642

Okay.

643

I think that's right on.

644

Josh: Like, I would, well, I

would need to know if they.

645

Also want kids.

646

Mm hmm.

647

Or I would need to know if Um,

when we have a, an argument,

648

can they work through it with me

compassionately and with kindness?

649

Jessica: Right.

650

You got it.

651

Yeah.

652

And another one that may be kind of a

subset of the, the other two questions

653

we were just talking about, what does

my heart need to know in order to take

654

this relationship to the next step?

655

Josh: And how, how,

what's an example of that?

656

Jessica: Yeah, so I'm, you know, thinking

about a few of my clients, and I think

657

that there often comes a moment in the

relationship where they feel confused

658

about how much to, um, be all in.

659

Mm hmm.

660

Right?

661

Mm hmm.

662

And oftentimes it comes down to

feeling unclear about the relationship.

663

Uh, future plans, actually.

664

So are we on the same page about kids?

665

Are we on the same page about monogamy or

marriage or, you know, anything like that?

666

And so, oftentimes when I have

them slow down and listen.

667

There's sort of this unease around,

like, I'd really like to be all in

668

with this person, but I'm noticing,

like, I don't know how to process

669

what they've told me about what

they're looking for in the future.

670

Josh: Got it.

671

Okay.

672

Jessica: So, you know, that often

points to, well, gosh, it sounds

673

like a conversation is needed where

we're really clarifying whether you

674

two are on the same page before you

decide to introduce them to your mom.

675

Mm hmm.

676

Mm hmm.

677

Mm hmm.

678

And a lot of people, because that's

an uncomfortable conversation,

679

they'll just go ahead and

introduce the person to their mom.

680

Josh: Right.

681

Right.

682

Jessica: A

683

Josh: little easier to do that than

it is to say, well, actually, are

684

we on the same page about kids?

685

Jessica: Right.

686

Josh: Okay.

687

So what are some of the

signs that pacing is off?

688

Jessica: Yeah, I think this is

really helpful for people to know

689

because it's very common to see

a lot of these in early dating.

690

So we're going to go over some

common signs that pacing is off.

691

The first one is love bombing.

692

Josh: Mm hmm.

693

Jessica: Mm hmm.

694

Do you know what love bombing is?

695

Josh: the overwhelming display

of affection very early on in a

696

relationship that is often not at a

match for where the relationship really

697

is, kind of like grandiose, you're

the best thing in the world, you're

698

the best thing since sliced bread.

699

And I want to do all the things with

you and then they kind of disappear.

700

Jessica: Yes.

701

Absolutely.

702

You got it.

703

So, there's a couple different sort of

like subsets of love bombing, uh, that

704

a woman named Natalie Lu talks about.

705

She's got a great blog called Baggage

Reclaim and a book called, uh, Mr.

706

Unavailable and the Fallback Girl.

707

She talks about fast forwarding.

708

So that's where someone really

sweeps you up in a tide of intensity

709

where they're pursuing you.

710

And you're dating them, and you

end up missing crucial red flags.

711

So it's like, we just met, you take

me to your best friend's wedding

712

that weekend, and the next week

you take me on a trip to Bolivia.

713

I don't know.

714

I don't know why you take me to

Bolivia, but you take me to Bolivia.

715

And then, right, all of these sorts of

things where it's like, we're not doing

716

that early relationship um, work of

getting to know each other, gradually

717

seeing each other in progressive,

progressively vulnerable settings.

718

So that's fast forwarding.

719

There's also something

called future faking.

720

So that's when someone gives you the

impression of the future so they can

721

get what they want in the present.

722

So

723

Josh: Yeah.

724

And, uh, and so that's like, we're gonna

have three kids together and we're gonna

725

move in and have this beautiful house in

the hills and that kind of thing where

726

you're like kind of painting the picture

of the future that's kind of rosy.

727

Jessica: Yeah.

728

It can also be, oh yeah, you

know, I'm, I'm still kind of

729

in a relationship with my ex.

730

My partner, you know, we were together for

eight years, but we haven't really been

731

in love for a long time and we're talking

about separating and, you know, you know,

732

I just need to wrap that up, but I want

us to still spend time together because

733

I really see in the future, you know, you

and I, like, you are exactly what I want.

734

Josh: And it's, you know, I think

we're talking about this a little

735

bit in the frame of, uh, it's, it's

sometimes manipulative that someone

736

is, is to a certain extent, maybe

doing some of this intentionally.

737

But maybe not, maybe they're

not doing it intentionally,

738

they're not trying to hurt you.

739

And yet there's something about

how their system is, is kind of

740

approaching a new relationship right

now that is leading to all of this.

741

Jessica: That

742

Josh: is having them do these things that

are, are, are The impact is very harmful.

743

Jessica: Right.

744

Josh: Uh, very confusing, and it's

very like, kind of intoxicating at

745

first, like having this person's

attention, their interest, can

746

be very engaging for our systems.

747

We want to bond, um, and yet,

it kind of causes us to miss

748

some of these important signals.

749

Jessica: Yeah.

750

Absolutely.

751

Yeah.

752

So, uh, other signs that piecing is

off, delaying the natural next step

753

in the relationship's development.

754

So, for example, Matching on an app.

755

Messaging for weeks.

756

Before going on a date.

757

Josh: Yeah.

758

Jessica: Right.

759

Josh: And so it's like, the question

that comes up for me, at least,

760

is why do you need that much time?

761

Jessica: Mm hmm.

762

Josh: It's either like, if there's

enough interest to warrant a

763

date, let's go on a date and see.

764

Jessica: Mm hmm.

765

Josh: And if there's not, then

why are we messaging for weeks?

766

Jessica: Right.

767

Yeah, and of course, with all

of this, there's a sweet spot.

768

Yeah.

769

And we, if you match with

someone, they say, want to

770

meet me for a drink in an hour.

771

Yeah.

772

You know, I generally think it's better

to meet sooner over later because you

773

don't build up a whole fantasy and that

quick for me kind of registers red flaggy.

774

We've also got, um, avoiding

important conversations.

775

So let me give you some examples.

776

Acting like you're in a relationship

when no conversation about exclusivity

777

or commitment has been made.

778

Mm.

779

Maybe even like hinting at wanting more

time when one partner is sort of nudging

780

them, nudging the other person about

commitment, but kind of indirectly.

781

Mm.

782

And the other person is just

completely avoiding the topic.

783

Mm.

784

There's no lines being drawn in the sand,

so we don't, you don't get to really

785

see what the relationship is capable of.

786

Another avoidance of

important conversations is

787

hiding your deal breakers.

788

Until weeks, months, years in.

789

Josh: Mm.

790

Yeah.

791

You get so attached to somebody before

it coming to the surface that like,

792

no, we actually don't wanna live in the

same place, or we don't wanna have kids.

793

Mm-Hmm.

794

Jessica: Yeah.

795

Another sign that piecing is

off is any sort of experience

796

of intermittent reinforcement.

797

So this is the kind of science

y version of inconsistency.

798

Okay, so that person who maybe is

really present in some moments and

799

not in others in a way that is a

little crazy making and kind of

800

leaves you feeling a little deprived.

801

Ken Page talks about attractions of

deprivation, like we kind of feel like

802

we have to earn the other person's love.

803

So, one really common experience of that

in the dating world is bread crumbing.

804

Josh: Mm hmm.

805

Jessica: You know what bread crumbing is?

806

Josh: I learned just because our

clinician, Laya, mentioned it to us

807

as we were preparing for this episode.

808

Jessica: Yeah.

809

So, you're giving little morsels of food

without actually feeding the person.

810

Okay.

811

You're trying to, and,

and it's a tactic, right?

812

You're trying to keep

them coming towards you.

813

Mm hmm.

814

Um, and so an example of this might be

like a random text here and there, right?

815

Hey, what's up?

816

What's going on?

817

Right?

818

Maybe it's a late at night text,

and then they say something really

819

sweet, and maybe say, yeah, I really

want to get together with you.

820

And then you text them, back and

they never respond or you say,

821

yeah, I want to get together.

822

How about over the weekend?

823

And they just never

824

Josh: follow up.

825

So painful and confusing.

826

Jessica: It really is.

827

Yeah.

828

Yeah.

829

Yeah.

830

So breadcrumbing, intermittent

reinforcement signs that pacing is off.

831

Another sign is rejecting early and often.

832

Okay.

833

So

834

Josh: Tell me more about that.

835

Jessica: Yeah, so this is sort of an

example of this would be rarely getting

836

past a first date or, say, four dates,

whatever your number is, because quote

837

unquote, I just wasn't feeling it.

838

Okay, so with this, we're talking a

little bit more about, um, more of

839

that avoidance style where there's a,

Tendency to be sort of hypercritical

840

and a tendency to assume that there's

nothing, no connection available

841

in a pretty short period of time.

842

Not really giving the relationship

a chance to pick up pace.

843

Josh: Okay.

844

So this is for, for the person who's in

that scenario, they're always the one

845

shutting things down pretty quickly.

846

That might be a signal like, okay,

there may be an opportunity to.

847

Give actual more time relationship

to see if a connection develops.

848

Jessica: Yes.

849

That's right.

850

That's right.

851

Another one would be, uh,

achieving relationship milestones

852

at a romantic comedy pace.

853

Josh: Like, we met on Friday

and on Saturday you met my mom

854

and on Sunday we were engaged.

855

Yes.

856

Okay.

857

Exactly.

858

Jessica: Yeah.

859

Or, we just met and we're

planning that trip to Bolivia.

860

Yeah.

861

Or, moving in at month two and what are

all the wacky things that will happen?

862

Josh: Lots of them and probably not good.

863

Jessica: Uh, yeah.

864

And so, the last one, last sign that

pacing is off, and this might be the

865

biggest one, is that you feel like

you're on an emotional roller coaster.

866

And this could be a really pleasurable

roller coaster, you could feel just like

867

super thrilled a lot of the time, um,

but if you feel like you're not grounded

868

or if there are extreme ups and downs,

and I would also say that you can kind

869

of look at how you are showing up So,

um, example, a common thing that And

870

the thing that shows up for people when

they're on an emotional roller coaster

871

is they don't do the things that they

usually do to take care of themselves.

872

Mm hmm.

873

They lose connections with their friends,

they stop exercising, they're not suddenly

874

pursuing whatever it is that grad school

application that they were working on.

875

Yeah.

876

Josh: They've become so consumed

by this ups, the ups and

877

downs of this relationship.

878

Jessica: Yes.

879

Josh: That everything else

is gonna fall into the side.

880

Jessica: Exactly.

881

Josh: And we all know the

friend who's been in that and.

882

Maybe have been in that ourselves once or

twice and it's, it's a, it's a whirlwind,

883

but it's, uh, yeah, very destabilizing.

884

Jessica: Yes.

885

Josh: Uh, and I think that's such

a, an important one of noticing

886

the high highs and the low lows.

887

Mm

888

Jessica: hmm.

889

Josh: It's like, it could be like,

the most amazing thing in the world

890

one day, and then you feel like crap

the next day when something is off,

891

when something isn't working, and.

892

Jessica: Right.

893

Yeah, and I, I think that for

a lot of people, dating is

894

gonna have some highs and lows.

895

I think that what we want to

look at here is what's the

896

pattern within a particular word.

897

Relationship.

898

Mm hmm.

899

On balance, am I just always swinging

between high and low and high and low, um,

900

or on balance am I finding there are good

pockets of time where I'm feeling grounded

901

while still connected to this person.

902

Mm hmm.

903

And I think this all comes back to

that first principle of, uh, pacing,

904

which is pausing and checking in

with our nervous system, right?

905

If you find your nervous system is

all out of whack most of the time

906

when you're relating to this person.

907

Mm hmm.

908

That means pacing is off.

909

Josh: And so then on the flip side,

in terms of how do we know when pacing

910

is working, when we're kind of going

at a good pace for us and our partner,

911

is it that our nervous system is at

that optimal level of arousal, right?

912

We're stimulated, we're engaged,

but we're not overwhelmed.

913

We're not like totally disengaged.

914

Are there other signs that you

would point to for like This is

915

how we know things are working.

916

Mm

917

Jessica: hmm.

918

Mm hmm.

919

Yeah, I think that what you named

is probably the most important, like

920

really noticing where your nervous

system is on balance with this person.

921

Yeah, if we look at sort of the

opposites of some of the signs that

922

pacing is off, right, the opposite

of love bombing is, uh, progressive,

923

progressively deepening, um, Levels

of, um, affection and attention, right?

924

It's not, um, on full blast

from the very beginning.

925

Josh: Mm

926

Jessica: hmm.

927

Okay.

928

Josh: One of the things that we

talked about at the beginning

929

of our relationship was small

promises instead of big promises.

930

Jessica: Yeah, absolutely.

931

Like,

932

Josh: not like, you're the

greatest thing in the world and

933

I'm going to marry you today.

934

But like, what's the small, sweet

promise that is authentic, that we

935

can make and practice making those

small promises to each other and

936

then see, oh yeah, let's keep going.

937

Jessica: Right.

938

Absolutely.

939

Yeah, I think it really built trust for me

when I saw you say, we're going to do X,

940

Y, or Z, and then you showed up for that.

941

And it wasn't more and it wasn't less.

942

Yeah, so some other signs

that piecing is on track.

943

Some of the opposites of those

negative signs, really like

944

having movement, having, you know,

there's not a sense of stop and go.

945

Okay, really, you're not waiting weeks

and weeks and weeks, but you're also not

946

going from one milestone to the next.

947

And I want to put a caveat in here.

948

Remember what I said about

talking about the future.

949

Having important conversations in

a healthily paced way does not mean

950

on the second date asking so when

do you think you might move to my

951

city if you're in different cities.

952

Josh: That would fall into

the love bombing category.

953

Jessica: But it does mean that

you're being transparent about what

954

you're looking for to make sure

that you're still on the same page.

955

Josh: I want to put a shout out in here

to the book Eight Dates by the Gottmans.

956

That's a wonderful, uh, kind

of way of approaching these

957

important conversations to have.

958

Uh, as we are considering entering

into a long term relationship together.

959

Jessica: Mm

960

Josh: hmm.

961

Over time.

962

Obviously, don't have all of

those conversations in the

963

first two dates or whatever.

964

Jessica: Right.

965

Absolutely.

966

Yeah.

967

And so, consistent reinforcement

instead of intermittent reinforcement.

968

They're showing up when

they say they will.

969

They're showing up, uh,

regularly and consistently.

970

And somebody who is going to really

give the relationship more than a date.

971

Mm hmm.

972

for an assessment, right?

973

We talked about rejecting early and often.

974

So someone who's really willing to be in

the exploration of what's present here

975

when we give ourselves enough connection

to actually start to build a bond.

976

Josh: Beautiful.

977

Okay.

978

Well, so far we've been talking about

pacing really from the perspective

979

of, you know, An individual kind

of assessing their own pacing and

980

finding ways to engage with pacing

in a way that works for them.

981

But obviously there are two

people in this relationship.

982

Jessica: Or budding relationship.

983

Josh: Sometimes three, sometimes more.

984

There are other people

involved at any rate.

985

So, I'm curious, how do

we take that into account?

986

And, and sometimes, probably a

lot of the time, our pacing may

987

not match our partner's pacing.

988

Um, and how do we work with that?

989

Like, what do we do with that?

990

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, I think that

we can assume this will happen.

991

Yeah.

992

Right?

993

We're going to have different paces.

994

Um, that's the joy and sometimes the

challenge of being in relationship.

995

Um, so, first and foremost,

just expecting that and making a

996

commitment to really communicate.

997

Okay.

998

I really recommend communicating about

your pacing early and often, okay?

999

So if somebody sends you a message

about getting together that weekend,

00:51:14,824 --> 00:51:18,354

and you're feeling like, wow,

that's soon because it's Thursday.

00:51:19,059 --> 00:51:20,729

You want to chat a little bit more.

00:51:21,219 --> 00:51:22,889

Um, saying that, right?

00:51:23,029 --> 00:51:25,859

Even if this is the very

beginning of your relationship.

00:51:26,109 --> 00:51:26,549

Okay?

00:51:27,449 --> 00:51:31,009

Um, really giving you both an

opportunity to practice the skill

00:51:31,059 --> 00:51:34,669

of finding ways for both people

to feel cared for and respected.

00:51:34,679 --> 00:51:36,079

Finding some sort of win win.

00:51:36,969 --> 00:51:42,009

Um, and then really noticing your

partner's response to how you're

00:51:42,019 --> 00:51:44,189

communicating about your, your pacing.

00:51:45,039 --> 00:51:48,509

Um, again, this is a really

great way to kind of assess what

00:51:48,509 --> 00:51:50,139

kind of partner are they, right?

00:51:50,549 --> 00:51:54,899

Josh: Yeah, it's like, can, can we

take care of each other even in the

00:51:55,089 --> 00:51:58,009

exploration of what's here between us?

00:51:58,049 --> 00:51:58,379

Jessica: Right.

00:51:58,439 --> 00:52:01,259

Josh: Can we both communicate about

what we're wanting and needing

00:52:01,259 --> 00:52:05,459

around pacing and then, uh, be kind

and compassionate and respectful?

00:52:06,079 --> 00:52:11,109

When you say, like, oh, I, I am really

not quite ready for this, uh, then

00:52:11,119 --> 00:52:12,569

does your partner say, oh, cool,

00:52:12,809 --> 00:52:13,169

Jessica: great,

00:52:13,249 --> 00:52:15,809

Josh: let's, let's work with

that, or I'm really wanting this.

00:52:17,799 --> 00:52:18,869

Jessica: Yeah, absolutely.

00:52:20,219 --> 00:52:20,499

Yeah.

00:52:20,499 --> 00:52:24,809

And so we're also, of course,

remaining open to the other persons.

00:52:25,419 --> 00:52:32,719

Pacing and responding, hopefully both with

compassion, but also with honesty, right?

00:52:32,729 --> 00:52:37,029

Because it's, it's your pacing is just as

important as the other person's, right?

00:52:37,089 --> 00:52:41,489

And so allowing them to know what

you're wanting in terms of pacing so

00:52:41,489 --> 00:52:45,619

that there is a conversation about,

well, how do we, how does the we work?

00:52:45,849 --> 00:52:46,749

Josh: How does the we work?

00:52:46,759 --> 00:52:50,099

That's a great, yeah, it's, it's

so much about the we, right?

00:52:50,099 --> 00:52:52,199

It's about discovering between us.

00:52:52,909 --> 00:52:55,899

What is this, as we said earlier,

two person psychological system?

00:52:55,899 --> 00:52:57,639

How does that operate together?

00:52:57,689 --> 00:52:59,139

Do we function effectively?

00:52:59,804 --> 00:53:04,294

And, uh, successfully together, or

is there such a difference between

00:53:04,294 --> 00:53:07,194

what we're wanting and needing

that it makes it very hard to do

00:53:07,194 --> 00:53:07,254

Jessica: that?

00:53:07,254 --> 00:53:07,524

Yeah.

00:53:07,804 --> 00:53:08,014

Yeah.

00:53:08,014 --> 00:53:11,724

Can our nervous systems dance

together in a way that is satisfying?

00:53:11,734 --> 00:53:12,134

Mm hmm.

00:53:12,224 --> 00:53:15,454

There's enough difference and

enough sameness that it feels

00:53:15,454 --> 00:53:18,014

like a dance versus a fight.

00:53:18,014 --> 00:53:18,424

Mm hmm.

00:53:19,424 --> 00:53:22,954

And so if someone's pace is very different

from yours, you aren't able to find a

00:53:22,954 --> 00:53:26,704

place to meet in the middle, that may

be an indicator that you aren't a fit.

00:53:27,904 --> 00:53:31,704

And then I think it's also worth

saying that if you notice in that

00:53:31,864 --> 00:53:37,214

process that the other person's pace is

concerning, right, really keeping your

00:53:37,214 --> 00:53:40,494

eye on that, are they love bombing, are

they breadcrumbing, all those things,

00:53:40,804 --> 00:53:44,774

that may be also an indicator that

it's not a fit because that is more

00:53:44,774 --> 00:53:46,694

of that attraction of deprivation.

00:53:46,784 --> 00:53:47,044

Right.

00:53:47,574 --> 00:53:47,834

Josh: Right.

00:53:47,834 --> 00:53:48,254

Right.

00:53:48,254 --> 00:53:49,824

And I want to just say.

00:53:50,664 --> 00:53:53,414

celebrate seeing that it's not a fit.

00:53:53,634 --> 00:53:54,374

Jessica: Yes.

00:53:54,604 --> 00:53:57,904

Josh: Because you are going to save

yourself so much time and energy

00:53:58,084 --> 00:54:01,124

and heartbreak seeing it's not

a fit sooner rather than later.

00:54:01,124 --> 00:54:04,644

And it's, it can be hard to see that

sometimes because we get excited.

00:54:04,654 --> 00:54:05,474

Of course we do.

00:54:05,574 --> 00:54:05,934

Jessica: Yeah.

00:54:05,984 --> 00:54:08,954

Josh: You know, if you're like

us, we want to be in love.

00:54:08,954 --> 00:54:09,894

We want to love.

00:54:09,924 --> 00:54:10,729

It's, it's, it's.

00:54:10,889 --> 00:54:14,799

Kind of something that is deeply

meaningful to us, and we want

00:54:14,799 --> 00:54:17,439

that opportunity and to see like,

oh, this isn't it, this isn't the

00:54:17,439 --> 00:54:18,859

thing I thought it was going to be,

00:54:19,019 --> 00:54:20,009

Jessica: would be very hard,

00:54:20,049 --> 00:54:20,749

Josh: but celebrate.

00:54:20,759 --> 00:54:24,979

It's like, if you can see early on,

because you've been doing this pacing

00:54:24,979 --> 00:54:27,949

effectively, and you're really checking

in with what you need and want, and

00:54:27,949 --> 00:54:31,889

inviting that from your partner, and

you discover early on, We're really

00:54:31,889 --> 00:54:36,469

far apart on pacing or there's some,

there's some value or some quality or

00:54:36,469 --> 00:54:39,459

something that we're looking for that

just isn't, we're not on the same page.

00:54:40,269 --> 00:54:41,119

That's good news.

00:54:41,959 --> 00:54:42,299

Jessica: Yeah.

00:54:42,339 --> 00:54:42,889

Josh: Good news.

00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:43,419

Jessica: Yeah.

00:54:43,419 --> 00:54:49,849

And if you can't quite get to celebration,

at least give yourself compassion, right?

00:54:49,949 --> 00:54:57,659

Like, yes, it's painful to, to see those

misses and just be with yourself in that.

00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:03,169

Um, Yeah, I think as much as

you can be kind with yourself

00:55:03,169 --> 00:55:04,609

in that moment, the better.

00:55:05,799 --> 00:55:09,079

Josh: Well, I hope we've given you

something that you can use to go

00:55:09,079 --> 00:55:13,269

out and Engage in finding the love

that you're really looking for a

00:55:13,269 --> 00:55:17,059

little bit more easily, a little bit

more skillfully and successfully.

00:55:17,609 --> 00:55:20,389

And, um, yeah, anything else

you want to say about pacing

00:55:20,389 --> 00:55:22,079

before we, we wrap it up here?

00:55:24,609 --> 00:55:24,919

Jessica: No.

00:55:25,879 --> 00:55:26,159

Great.

00:55:27,059 --> 00:55:27,289

Perfect.

00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,259

Josh: Well, if you found this

episode useful, we'd love for

00:55:32,259 --> 00:55:35,449

you to leave us a rating and

review in your Apple podcast app.

00:55:35,749 --> 00:55:38,579

And you can find everything

that we mentioned in this show.

00:55:38,864 --> 00:55:41,604

In our show notes on relationshipcenter.

00:55:41,634 --> 00:55:44,784

com slash podcast and until next time

00:55:44,974 --> 00:55:45,844

Jessica: we love you, too.

00:55:46,094 --> 00:55:46,754

Josh: We love you, too

00:55:47,914 --> 00:55:48,214

Jessica: Bye