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If you think imposter syndrome is only relevant to a very small part of the population, think again. 

In our conversation, Clare Josa shares the difference between the very natural self doubt that we feel when we step out of our comfort zone and the debilitating joyless imposter syndrome. She shows us how to recognize it in ourselves and our colleagues and offers us a tiny practical first step on the journey towards feeling good enough at our core.

[00:00] Introduction to Imposter Syndrome

[00:07] Meet Clare Josa: Expert on Imposter Syndrome

[01:05] Understanding Self-Doubt vs. Imposter Syndrome

[02:05] The Impact of Imposter Syndrome in the Workplace

[04:15] Recognizing Imposter Syndrome in Yourself and Others

[06:22] The Link Between Imposter Syndrome and Burnout

[08:17] Steps to Overcome Imposter Syndrome

Next Steps:

If you enjoyed this, you might also enjoy my Life Satisfaction Assessment. It's a 30-minute program where I guide you through a deep dive into 10 areas of your life to assess what's bringing you joy and what's bringing you down. I call it Derailed and it's a fabulous place to begin a joy-at-work redesign.

If you think imposter syndrome is only relevant to a very small

part of the population, think again.

My guest today is Clare Josa.

Author, researcher, speaker, trainer on overcoming imposter syndrome.

Her new research discovered that 31 percent of employees in the UK are at high

risk of burnout, 1 in 10 consider quitting their job every day, and 22 percent

of women have turned down a promotion this year because of imposter syndrome.

In our conversation, Clare shares the difference between the very natural

self doubt that we feel when we step out of our comfort zone and the

debilitating joyless imposter syndrome.

She shows us how to recognize it in ourselves and our colleagues and offers us

a tiny practical first step on the journey towards feeling good enough at our core.

Let's Dive in.

Clare!

What is the difference between natural human self doubt when we're doing

something new or big or running through change and imposter syndrome at work?

So, Lucia, that is such a great question.

Self doubt, that is about what we can and can't do.

And that comes in when we're stretching a comfort zone, we're learning new

skills, maybe we've moved into a new role and we don't yet have the

experience or the network to be able to fulfill our potential in it.

Imposter syndrome, though, has a secret sauce.

It's actually about who we think we are rather than what we can and can't do.

And that secret sauce is about the fear of being found out is not

good enough or somehow a fraud.

So the reason that's so important is self doubt is natural and healthy.

You go on some skills based training, get some mentoring, some

standard coaching that will improve.

Your confidence will grow.

But if imposter syndrome is running underneath that 3am worry

that today's the day your luck will run out, will still persist.

And, oh, I absolutely get that difference.

So tell me what are some of the major issues that you have seen

in your work with experienced professionals when they suffer from

imposter syndrome for a long time?

So one of the biggest challenges is hoping it will go away.

Yeah, it's hoping we can just push on through and that by just taking

that deep breath pulling our socks up Pushing on through that fear

that it will somehow disappear.

But the problem is imposter syndrome is actually governed by the primal part

of the brain that has already seen the potential risk or threat And decided to

self sabotage before the thinking part of the brain is even processing information.

So we're constantly playing catch up, trying not to self sabotage.

What happens with imposter syndrome is we will play small.

We will tone down our ideas.

We will not speak up.

So we found in our latest research study, only 11 percent of people

feel fully confident speaking up with their ideas at work.

The other, I know the other 80% The other 89, it depends how high risk the

idea is, but they're toning them down.

They're keeping quiet.

They're going what I call beige instead of Marmite.

Because they are absolutely scared at a, an identity level of being

found out as not good enough.

We found that 22 percent of women have turned down offers of promotions.

They know that they could achieve in the last year due to imposter syndrome.

So they've actually been offered the job and they've turned it down.

We've got one in 10 people is thinking of quitting their job every single day.

Due to imposter syndrome, and it's one in four this week in the UK.

You see people not speaking up with their opinions, so you end

up with groupthink, miscreativity.

But the problem with the pushing on through is it means

we're stuck in chronic stress.

We're constantly in that fight flight freeze mode.

And that is why imposter syndrome is one of the biggest predictors of burnout.

And we've just found in the research study, 31 percent of people are at high

risk of burning out very soon in the UK.

I can almost smell it.

Everyone I'm speaking to it feels like they're getting

closer and closer to the edge.

So that's super interesting research.

Okay.

So, If I am a listener, what are some of the signs that will indicate that either

I am experiencing and suffering from imposter syndrome or my colleagues are?

So there are two ways to look at this.

One of them is you can look at the general behaviors.

So for example, overthinking and overworking.

A two hour report takes two days because you spend so much time

overthinking and second guessing how people might receive it.

You might have somebody who really struggles to make decisions.

This happens a lot as somebody is getting promoted.

They will often lean too heavily on their line manager and the line manager will be

wondering, why is this person coming to my office or my team's room 10 times a day?

They could make these decisions on their own.

So they really struggle with decision paralysis.

And then from the research studies, we've got a model that we call the

four P's of imposter syndrome, which are really good behavioral predictors.

They are perfectionism, procrastination, project paralysis, and people pleasing.

If you've got somebody in your team, you're looking for changes in these.

Okay, maybe they've just taken on a stretch objective, a new challenge,

something more visible, they've been promoted, or they've just

had the tap on the shoulder about would you like to be promoted?

If you suddenly see an increase in that perfectionism, procrastination, project

paralysis, and people pleasing, chances are that whatever's just happened has

triggered imposter syndrome for them.

Not only does that munch enormous amounts of time and energy, the stuff that happens

in the brain with blood flow, that means they won't be able to concentrate as well,

it affects their performance, they'll be more likely to make mistakes, and they

overlap with the fight flight freeze fawn stress response, and if you're really

unfortunate and they head intuitively for the fight response, then it can

actually turn them into a toxic teammate.

Oh my god, you've said so much there.

But what I'm feeling in what you've said is that this is

energetic work internally, yeah?

To do just what is required externally.

So, is that where the link is coming towards burnout?

So it's actually coming from that chronic stress response

because the biggest issue with imposter syndrome, there are three

core drivers amplifiers of it.

There's the external company culture, the working environment

and the personal habits.

With the personal habits these can be amplified by the culture and the

environment and the expectations, how fast you've got to respond to pings,

for example, um, how the culture is about if you make a mistake.

What's happening is we're telling ourself what I call mind story drama.

We're worrying, what if ing, and catastrophizing.

This fires off that chronic stress response, the fight flight

freeze response, automatically, without us even realizing.

That means the body is constantly flooded with adrenaline and cortisol.

The definition of burnout, is the body no longer being able to handle

the stress hormones, because we flooded it with them for too long.

This causes insomnia, with women in particular, if you add in things like

perimenopause, where we naturally are more sensitive to cortisol.

It's one of the reasons why perimenopause is a huge trigger point for imposter

syndrome and also hugely talented women leaving the workplace because of it.

It's that cortisol and the stress that is driving the self sabotage.

It's that fear of being found out and to truly clear it from an

organization, you need to address all three amplifiers, the personal habits,

the company culture and the working environment that was fostering this.

And that's how people can thrive at work and

experience more joy, but it can't be done alone and exclusively.

Exactly.

We will have people who are listening who are either recognizing

this at home, in their own work life, or in their colleagues.

And you've written a book to show professionals how to ditch imposter

syndrome and to finally feel good enough.

Great title, by the way.

What steps can someone listening today take, next week, to begin this journey

towards ditching imposter syndrome.

One of the first things I would encourage someone

to start doing right away today is to become more aware of the stories

that you're telling yourself.

So if you find yourself in that catastrophizing, you can simply take

a deep breath in through the nose, breathe out through the mouth with a

sigh, ideally not on a team's call.

Yeah.

Just to bring that stress response down and look at those thoughts

as though you were observing them.

And ask yourself, is that really true?

Or is that just imposter syndrome speaking?

Just is doing a lot of heavy lifting there because it feels very real

when it's happening in our heads.

If it's imposter syndrome speaking, great.

What do I want instead?

And start focusing on the first step you can take towards

the what you want instead.

All of the work I teach on this whether it's in the books or in the

imposter syndrome hacks app works at two levels both in the moment where you

need that press pause and also longer term to prevent imposter syndrome by

clearing out those root cause drivers.

It's my engineering background.

I'm obsessed with root causes.

Clear it out at the root.

You don't need the surface level coping strategies, but that is something

that people could start doing today.

Is this really true?

Is it just imposter syndrome speaking?

What do I want instead and start gently allowing your nervous

system to focus on making that feel safe and exciting instead.

If you enjoyed this, you might also enjoy my Life Satisfaction Assessment.

It's a 30 minute program where I guide you through a deep dive into 10 areas

of your life to assess what's bringing you joy and what's bringing you down.

I call it D Railed.

It's a fabulous place to begin a joy at work redesign.