Jeffrey Roth has spent his career letting extraordinary people tell their own stories—Apollo astronauts, President George H.W. Bush, and now Dr. Zahi Hawass. In this episode, Christian Taylor inquires about the logistics of independent documentary filmmaking in Egypt: working with fixers, navigating permits, shooting in ancient tombs with one hour of access, and why he withholds narration. Plus: the personal moments that make his films unforgettable.

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zahifilm.com

Dr. Zahi Hawass

“41”, 2021, 98 mins, Watch on HBO MAX, IMDB Link: 41 (2012) ⭐ 6.6 | Documentary, Biography

President in Waiting, 2020, 77 mins, Watch on Fawsome or Pluto TV or Roku Channel or Tube or Prime Video, IMDB Link: President in Waiting (2020) ⭐ 7.8 | Documentary, History

DocuView Déjà Vu:

“The Kid Stays In The Picture”, 2002, 93 mins, Watch on Amazon Prime, IMDB Link: The Kid Stays in the Picture (2002) ⭐ 7.3 | Documentary, Biography

Time Codes

• 00:00:00 — Introduction: Jeffrey Roth’s filmmaking philosophy
• 00:03:00 — Filming in Egypt: How Jeffrey connected with Dr. Zahi Hawass
• 00:09:00 — The fixer system: Permits, crew, and equipment in Egypt
• 00:15:00 — Self-funded filmmaking: Creative freedom vs. financial challenges
• 00:21:00 — Character-driven documentary: Why no narration or talking heads
• 00:27:00 — Shooting in tombs: One-hour windows and no scouting
• 00:33:00 — The role of fixers: Language barriers and local crew
• 00:39:00 — Unplanned magic: Discovering five mummies and the family photo moment
• 00:45:00 — Filming during October 7th: 140 miles from Gaza
• 00:51:00 — Making 41: How a screening led to three years with President George H.W. Bush
• 00:57:00 — The Presidential Medal of Freedom: One camera, no audio, and a personal moment
• 01:03:00 — Collaboration in filmmaking: Working with DPs and editors
• 01:09:00 — The business of independent documentary distribution
• 01:17:00 — DocuView Déjà Vu: Jeffrey’s documentary recommendation (The Kid Stays in the Picture)

Sponsor: Virgil Films http://www.virgilfilms.com/

Support us by buying merch or watching our films: https://documentaryfirst.com/

And then I'm going to start.

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All right.

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So usually this is red and I try to do it looking straight into my camera.

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So here we go.

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Hi everybody.

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Welcome to documentary first, where we have an inside look at documentary filmmaking.

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I'm your host, Christian Taylor and a documentary filmmaker myself.

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I'm sitting down with storytellers who capture real life stories one frame at a time so

that we can become better filmmakers.

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Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by Jeffrey Ross.

10

He's a director and he is coming here to talk to us about his debut feature.

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It's coming up, A Man with the Hat being distributed by Virgil Films, our very own

sponsor, as well as my distributor, Amazing People, over there at Virgil Films.

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His first debut feature, The Wonder of It All, is an award-winning, critically acclaimed

documentary that captures the human side of the Apollo astronauts.

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He went on to direct 41 for HBO, an intermittent three-year portrait of President George

H.W.

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Bush, executive produced by Jerry Weintraub.

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His CNN film, President and Waiting, brings together every living president and vice

president to explore how the vice presidency evolved from a ceremonial role into one of

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the most powerful offices in the world.

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Jeffrey's latest project, The Man with the Hat, is a cinematic journey with the world's

famous Egyptologist, Dr.

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Zahaie Howe.

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How do you say his name?

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Zahaie?

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Zahi, Zahi, Zahi Hawas.

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Zahi Hawass, taking us back 4,000 years into tombs, tombs and temples and never before

seen discoveries in Egypt.

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Jeffrey, welcome to Documentary First.

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Thanks for having me.

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Appreciate it.

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So you asked me if I had seen the movie last night and I was very reserved because I

didn't really want to tell you and I didn't really want to say what I thought.

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But yes, I did see it.

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I was incredibly impressed.

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It was beautifully, cinematically shot.

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It was very moving.

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It was unusual because, and this is what I want to talk about.

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It was completely character driven by Dr.

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Hawass.

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No narration.

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really, it was just no talking heads.

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It was completely character driven as, mean, he's a big character so he can carry that, um

you know, a film.

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And uh to me, it seemed like it must have been something incredibly challenging to film.

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And I have so many questions about how you were able to pull that off.

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I can't imagine.

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You have this huge studio that's backing you and uh all of these, you know, things at your

disposal.

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So uh tell me how in the world you were able to pull off this unbelievable magic.

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Okay, so where to start?

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um as you've kind of alluded to, uh it's basically Zahi telling his own story.

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And that's the style that I like to do as a filmmaker.

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And if you look at any of my movies, it's always the living person.

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And so when I was trying to figure out what to do next, you know, go through the names and

you kind of sit with things for a while and then it's like, okay, well, two days later,

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Maybe didn't sound so good.

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you you go through that kind of a journey and then it's like, once you land on something,

you gotta find them.

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See if they're interested, because if they're not interested in telling their story, then

it's over.

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So...

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uh

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stop you right there for a second.

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So what you're saying is as a filmmaker, and I was gonna ask you this later because the

other thing I wanted to tell you is after I watched that, I was like, let me look for

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about 20 minutes at 41.

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Because it was late, like it was about, I think 10 o'clock when I finished and I was like,

I'm tired.

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But let me look at 20 minutes at 41.

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I couldn't just look at 20 minutes.

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I watched the whole 110 and I got super sucked in.

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really loved it.

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And then I was gonna watch the other ones and I was like, I can't, I gotta go to bed.

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But what I did notice was that theme of you picking individual people and letting them

tell their story.

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So that is something you've decided to be your way of telling stories and you go and just.

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look for individuals that you're interested in, you ask them if they want to tell your

story, and then you develop a relationship like a writer does with a book, a biographer

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kind of thing, and you make that relationship.

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Is that what you do?

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Um, sort of, but you also go with whatever, however they want to handle it.

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Right.

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So, so when you look at the astronaut movie or the vice president one, I was dealing with

multiple people there.

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And sometimes, you know, especially with presidents or vice presidents, you're dealing

with their schedules.

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So you don't have time to work really with anybody.

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You got to do it all kind of yourself.

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You show up, you do it and off you go.

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Um, with Dr.

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Hawass, you know,

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I just kind of emailed him through a website because, you know, he's in Egypt.

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Like, OK, how do I find this guy?

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And then you think like, OK, you know, how do you get through the layers of people to get

to the person?

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So you very simply send an email out that said, hey, you know, I'm kind of interested in

doing a documentary.

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uh Please put me in touch with the right people.

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And uh like within an hour, I got an email right back from him, said basically, meet me in

Salt Lake City next week.

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OK.

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uh

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So, so, you a week later, and this was uh mid December in 22.

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And meet him at a hotel and within 10 minutes, uh he says, give me your pad of paper.

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He's like, okay, we're going to go here, here, here and here.

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And this is what you need to do.

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And you're going to come to Egypt in February.

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And, know, now I'm thinking, okay, well, you know, here we are almost the end of December.

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And he's basically telling me to be there in February because you got to work around his

schedule.

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ah And then that's where the problems started.

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Because once you go off that cliff, it's a...

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It's a challenge, but it's a fascinating challenge, right?

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And you do it because...

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you have the money when somebody says, okay, you're gonna start shooting in February?

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I mean, how did you have time to raise the money to start shooting?

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Well, we generally do um the funding ourselves, uh being independent.

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uh For me, to go through the route of trying to find people to, you know, whether to sell

it to a studio or a network or whether to go for uh funding, uh like I it's a long process

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and that's something that I didn't want to do.

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And also what I kind of like about this being low budget.

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but also doing it on your own is that you don't have anybody over your shoulder telling

you what to do.

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And so there's a satisfaction, of course, with that.

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uh so whenever I do a talk or anything, I just say, listen, I don't care if you like the

movie or not, right?

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Just appreciate what we did with a very small crew, very small amount of money, and we're

able to produce something like this.

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So uh yeah, so that when he...

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He basically says, yeah, in Egypt in February, we could.

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ah So I wasn't scrambling for that.

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You're more or less scrambling to get all of your, uh find the fixer.

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You got to find uh everything, the crew over there.

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And then you very quickly learn what you can and can't do.

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All right, so do you mind me asking what your budget was?

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Did you set up a budget beforehand?

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Did you have the whole movie planned out?

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Or did you think, okay, I'm gonna do this as it goes, one thing at a time?

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mean, clearly, you went to all the big places where the tombs were, all the cities, plus

you went to where he grew up.

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And so you definitely had all these different locations.

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They were at different times.

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So you had several trips over there to Egypt.

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I saw either you went after COVID, but still there were masks being worn.

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there was still some fears there.

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um And then I'm sure if you're working hiring local crew, you've got permissions for

things.

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There's paperwork and governmental red tape.

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It's expensive to get.

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equipment, if you're not flying it over there?

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I mean, what did you decide to do about all of that?

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It's a lot of questions I just grew at you.

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Right.

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Right.

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So let me, let me try to go backwards on those.

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Um, so the first thing you have to do is you have to get your fixer.

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You cannot just show up at Egypt's door and say, I want to shoot a movie.

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They won't look at you, talk to you.

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You got to start with that.

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And then from that, the first step that you do is you have to write a letter to the

Egyptian embassy in Washington, DC, who then forward your request on into Egypt to the

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ministries.

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While you're doing that and waiting for those permissions to come through, you're trying

to figure out locations.

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Where are things?

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How far is it from this place to that place?

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So can figure out your days.

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uh And then once you get all that, they tell you, I should say they advise you, ah you

don't bring a lot of crew, hire local, and don't bring a lot of gear.

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Because the one thing that they do do, or make you do,

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is to uh provide a serial number for every piece of equipment that you bring into the

country.

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you know, and then it's like, okay, fine, but do you guys have gear that matches up with

what we have or that we want to use?

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And then you find that their names of what they call things are different.

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Their film language is different.

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And then like, you can't just go interview crew.

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Right?

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They just kind of, again, everything is through the fixer and so they just show up.

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And then you got to worry about the language barrier.

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And even if they do speak English, uh you know, sometimes the accents get in the way,

whether it's me talking or them talking.

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And also when you've got a finite time to shoot, because a lot of times they will give you

permissions, but it may be only for an hour if they got to open up something special for

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you.

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So now you show up and you've got to go, okay.

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No matter what you want to plan, if you've never been to a place before, you got to figure

all that out within an hour.

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Right, because you weren't able to scout.

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Correct.

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Correct.

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So, you gotta...

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And you were going into tombs.

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I mean, the things that I thought were nuts is that he was going down into, um, you know,

tunnels or they're not tunnels.

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They're what are they shafts down into the tombs to see a sarcophagus open for the first

time.

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And you guys were in there seeing what he was seeing for the first time.

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I mean,

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How amazing.

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um It's I mean literally is mind-blowing because You know you you want to make movies you

want to do things, but then you realize over there um No, this is real.

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I mean and you're in places that you never thought you would be Let alone rolling cameras

or calling action or whatever you're doing.

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I mean

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was so amazed about your film because I have always loved Egypt history, right?

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And archeology.

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I actually took some classes in that in college.

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And going to museum is one thing, but when you're in a museum and you're seeing all this

stuff, I've always wondered what it was like at those first discoveries when they first

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found them or when they opened the tomb or.

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What's it like in there?

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And you want to peer it just like he does.

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mean, he wants to be at every one that's first open.

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You can tell they don't open it until they call him.

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I know it.

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And so you can see them like, okay, we found this stop.

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have to, you know, we have to call Dr.

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Hawass.

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So, um so for you to have that kind of access, that was crazy.

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And you had at least two of those.

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Did you have more?

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Two made it into the film.

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Um, I would say we've, we had to, and we have some really small things that, you know, we

don't call out that their first discoveries or never before seen or whatever you want to

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say, because it was, we wanted more of the beauty to stand out.

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Right.

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And, and sometimes just because they make a discovery doesn't necessarily mean it's going

to make it to the public because historically it may not be, um, a big deal, but

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but it's a big deal.

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What I think is what he's doing now is he's capturing their own history for them.

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It's not like it's, look, this is the richest king ever.

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It's that there's still so much of civilization that's lying under their feet and they're

careful about their ancestors and their history and they're wanting to discover it and

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they care about the simple man.

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Yes.

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a family that they uncovered.

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One of the powerful moments in the film.

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I loved this.

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I loved how you showed this family that they uncovered and how they were gently uncovering

these mummies that were lying just open in the dirt and how he went to see them and then

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said, don't dig them up, cover them up.

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That was so tender.

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And you guys had taken a picture and put it over a canvas.

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and showed it to him and he cherished it.

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And he said he didn't have anything like that.

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And then he loved it and wanted it.

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And then I think shortly after that, you cut to him playing with his granddaughter and his

granddaughter's hat.

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And oh my goodness, that scene was just so precious.

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And how much that relationship you could see, you know, just them playing together.

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And it was just so...

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You could see how much he loved his people and he cherished what he was doing.

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And it did demonstrate, you you showed in the letters and I liked that you did this.

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There was always talk about how he was, there were people trying to tear him down and to

show how what he was doing was for show or he was corrupt.

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I've heard all those stories, but he's continued to press on and persevere and be this

larger than life figure.

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And I liked it that you

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uh did show him those quotes and give him an opportunity to respond.

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And what you also did though was, and this is what I tried to do in my own life, you can

say your words about what you believe and who you think you are.

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But in a sense, that doesn't matter.

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What matters is how you live.

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And what I think you demonstrated was how he lived, right?

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You showed it in that uh interaction with his granddaughter.

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You showed it as he would walk through the city and anywhere he was and stop with the

people and take pictures with them or shake their hands.

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Always, whether he was eating or whether he was going into his home, you could see the

patience and how he realized that he represented something bigger than himself and he

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cared about that.

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So he lived what he said he believed.

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And when you opened with talking about his father,

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I was already in tears from the opening ah just because...

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I can't believe I'm getting emotional.

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You could tell how impactful his father's words were to him and how he took those to

heart.

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think his father died when he was 13.

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So his father, when he was a young boy, implanted those words in him and it set him on a

course for the rest of his life that has changed the history of Egypt.

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And he gives his father who died when he was 13, complete credit for who he is.

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It was remarkable to me, you know, and I think as parents, we would all want to have that

kind of influence on our kids, you know?

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And so, um, I loved that you opened with that moment because like I said, I think his life

demonstrated that he was living what he said he believed.

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Um,

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And as you can tell, I really felt like that was a lot of the beauty of your movie.

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um It started off very powerfully for me and it was the beauty of the landscape and the

music, the score amplified that.

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um And then just his storytelling of how much he cared about what he was doing.

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You guys were able to really demonstrate that through the story.

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And I can imagine in the editing, that must have been hard for you to figure out that

story part.

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yes, and I'll say this, look, um, I can relate with him more than you probably know

because I lost my parents when I was 18.

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So you're going to get me going, but, uh

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mother, so I think that's why I'm emotional as well.

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It's a very tough thing.

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I don't think it matters how old you are.

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No, that's for sure.

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um But I felt that...

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Zahi is...

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As you've seen and you've kind of mentioned and alluded to.

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He's, they don't come any bigger than him from Egypt, right?

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And people want to tear him down.

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I think anybody in any profession that gets to a certain elevation in your career, that's

the name of the game is to bring you down.

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So very early on in the movie, which obviously you saw, that was our way of letting you

understand that this movie is going to be different.

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We do open with obviously shots of ancient Egypt and get there.

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But we also make a complete turn where he does talk about his influence and that theme

does come throughout the movie.

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Well, and you can tell that he doesn't care about his influence for his influence sake.

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What he cares about is what his influence hopefully is doing for Egypt's sake.

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And that's a very different thing.

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know, um, I think he says at some point he wanted to be an actor when he was younger.

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Um, and it's funny how he talks about his tribulations all throughout his life and

continue, you know, including being a bad student and wanting to go in different

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directions and not succeeding in any of those ways and not even wanting to go into

archeology and just keep, you know, getting forced into this way by life.

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um, and at any rate, finding his calling found him and he has grown into

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where he is and those desires and things that he wanted to be all came together to serve

Egypt.

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even like you said, once you get to that certain level, um, anywhere people begin to turn

you down, tear you down.

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But he said, even through that, um, tribulation, um, you know, he, said, I'm trying to

remember what was so powerful.

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Um, it was something like,

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Oh shoot.

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It escaped my mind.

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One thing he said was that, um, you know, it, it, it was that just, he, he had to go

through that, um, and continue on and not let any of that tear him down or stop him.

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Or he knew that you can't judge a book by its cover.

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That was it.

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That it was wrong.

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to believe something about a person before you knew them.

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And he was so certain in who he was.

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His identity in himself and who he was was so strong.

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He knew he wasn't corrupt.

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He knew he wasn't doing things wrong.

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And so it did not matter what people said about him.

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He was going to just soldier on, right?

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Right, and uh look, a few things are, A, uh he's a character.

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uh He has separated himself from the pack.

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uh He definitely has an ego, uh as most people do.

280

uh But I think, yes, uh there is that soft side of him which is very difficult to get out,

but you do hear it in him in the movie where he is talking about

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He wants to educate the kids.

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He wants to do it for the Egyptian people.

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He wants the Egyptian people to be proud of their history because throughout time other

people have come into Egypt to take things out of Egypt.

284

And I tell you, you made me mad by the time you got to the place where I realized where

you explained this was really good that you did this or he did this, how France had cut

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Napoleon had come in there and drawn everything, which was good, but then took the things

out of Egypt.

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And then you showed me um the, forget what the place is.

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where the obelisk is missing.

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Oh Luxor temple.

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Luxor temple and I really didn't understand except that I've been to Paris.

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I didn't know what that was.

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But now I know where it is and I remember it being there and now I see where it's missing

and I see from the faraway vantage that you showed me.

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It feels like it was raped and it belongs there.

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It's horrible that it's not there because there's a it's a pair.

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It's part of a pair.

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And now the opening of that looks terrible.

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And I can see where he's upset and he wants his things returned.

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So that made me angry.

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yeah, and I think if you really dig into it, I make no pun intended there, but uh I

believe the number is Italy, I believe has nine of them.

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And there's other countries that have more and they're not reproductions, they came from

Egypt.

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And so he is trying to get some things back.

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uh He does feel that there is a place

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for all museums around the world to have these artifacts so people can go see and learn.

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But the bigger ones is the ones that he would like to see back in his...

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Yeah, and I think there reasons for this where they're missing and they should be there.

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They could also be loaned out and travel around like the Cleopatra or whatever, but there

are things that should be in Egypt that were taken wrongly and he has reasons for that and

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they make sense.

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You you talked about him being a character in larger than life and I'm wondering when you

select a character like that, is it difficult to work with them and what challenges does

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that present?

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Let's just say he is, you could be there showing up on site for the first time with him.

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He could be in the car ahead of you.

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You show up, you've got your crew, you got the vans, you got the gear, you got everything

you need.

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You don't even have two feet out of the car and he's looking at you like, you're ready to

shoot?

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It's like, we just got here with you.

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You know, we'd like to work around for a moment here.

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So there's that.

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just, you have to hang on with him because,

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I think when we shot, was 76, 77.

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And he is like the Energizer Bunny.

319

He just goes and goes.

320

And then that's part of the thing, like in the movie, like he's always moving in the

movie, right?

321

And we wanted to show that he's everywhere.

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But that is a true thing.

323

um He will get up in the morning, get on a flight, fly down to Luxor from Cairo, do his

things down there.

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meet tour groups and things like that.

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And then that night he's on a flight back home at 11.

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Next day in the morning at five, he's up again.

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Now he's in Cairo somewhere dealing with other people.

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And it just repeats and repeats and repeats.

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This past summer, he was um on a tour here in the United States.

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He did 32 cities in 60 days for an hour and a half lecture.

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And he's bringing in about two, 3000 people a night.

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And

333

ah He just goes.

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But, uh and you kind of got to hang on.

335

But yes, but...

336

To deal with him from a directing point of view, you have to give him his space and do

what he wants to do.

337

And I'm not saying this is not a bad thing at all, because I do this in anybody that I've

dealt with.

338

But then you try to figure out how to get what is it that you're looking for, right?

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He knows and he has things in his head that he has said thousands of times when you show

up at a site.

340

When he says that, it's like, okay, and sometimes that could be good, sometimes not.

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And then sometimes you got to go, okay, now what about this?

342

Because now I got to guide him into what I'm looking for.

343

And he doesn't know necessarily because uh how can you, how can anybody until you see it

at the end, right?

344

Sometimes we're guessing too, until we get into the edit room to see what works or what

doesn't work.

345

So, but he's definitely a fun guy to deal with.

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that out with veterans, you know, who are 102, you know, they have told their story so

many times.

347

They are in this mode of telling their story.

348

If you have other questions or you want to learn other things, they have to stop and think

about that.

349

That takes a different part of their brain and a different track usually, and they're not

accustomed to that.

350

And so it does take them time and you're asking them for a different skillset really.

351

Um, and so yeah, I've experienced that it's a different thing for them to do.

352

It takes a bit.

353

that's also good to show, especially if it's on camera that you put in your film, because

it lets the audience know that they are thinking about it.

354

That it is a moment of maybe just quiet, but they're formulating something that is just

different to them.

355

And I like that from my point.

356

that you did ask him, you know, you did ask him questions that you would not hear in any

talk that he went to, which, you know, developed more who he was as a person and what

357

motivated him to do what he does.

358

um And like you said, at the end, the images of the children with him with the children,

he's just so tender.

359

And you can see how he cares about the future of Egypt and carrying on those legacies.

360

If he doesn't find people that care about it as passionately as he does, it will not carry

on.

361

And he knows that.

362

um So I think that was great to show.

363

What were some other difficulties and challenges?

364

I did the fixer was, I know it was important for finding crew or equipment and

365

um What else did the fixer do that was so critical and was it as helpful as you had hoped?

366

Well, I mean, it's everything from the moment that you arrive in Egypt to getting your

visa, to giving you the transportation to the hotels, from getting you from point A to

367

point B, having all the permits ready to go, having the crew, their vehicles, getting them

to their hotels.

368

I mean, really anything here that we would do, but they do it all.

369

And that kind of...

370

that cost?

371

How much does a fixer cost?

372

Um, I mean, I'll say this, uh, to put a number on it can be a little difficult in the

sense that, uh, you know, don't generally like to give out the numbers per se, but

373

everything was pretty much fair.

374

And I'll say it this way.

375

Whereas, um, whatever you were going to pay crew hotel, this, that, the other, they just,

I think tacked on basically a 15%.

376

And that was their fee.

377

So, so.

378

you know, for basically 15%, you're getting the logistics done, even though you'd still

have to pay hotel if you show up, right?

379

uh So I thought that that was fair.

380

I never thought anything that we were charged was out of line.

381

uh

382

didn't get paid by the hour or they weren't paid by in a lump sum.

383

They were paid percentage based on what you paid other people.

384

or things, you know, whether they would bring lunch in, right?

385

So let's just say the bill for lunch was, you know, don't know, 300 bucks, 15 % on top of

that.

386

But they were more, I'd say everything over there worked more on flats.

387

Nobody was really by the hour.

388

It was either by the day or like the car service was by day, wasn't by, you know, okay, if

you only take four hours of charge of this, eight.

389

charge you that.

390

um So everything was reasonable.

391

ah

392

do you have a budget that you know that you've spent on this film?

393

I do, but I prefer not to.

394

I prefer not to only because then, you know, if anybody was ever looking to figure out

what we spent in order to try to make a deal with me, uh and I mean more of like some kind

395

of a streamer, a second deal somewhere down the line, they use that against you.

396

So I don't want to go there.

397

It's not that I don't want to say it's just, I'm just trying to protect.

398

No, I understand.

399

understand.

400

Yeah.

401

Well, some people feel that way.

402

Sure.

403

You know, the goal also is that, you know, look, and I'm just saying that it's not a lot

of money in the scheme of things, right?

404

We don't have that.

405

And so we have to fit within a budget.

406

And we also have to make the movie look like we spent a lot more than what we spent,

right?

407

And so I think I would, know, visually, I would put this movie up against any documentary

of Egypt.

408

And most people that do films in Egypt are

409

the streamers or the networks or anxiety.

410

I could see this on any travel channel.

411

I could see it on the history channel and I could see it fit right there.

412

Absolutely.

413

Yeah, and Zahi has always been the guy, oh you know, if you know of Zahi, he's the guy

that always took you from the studio side of things to the antiquity side of things.

414

He was always a little middle man, right?

415

Because of his character, the showmanship and all that stuff.

416

So we were just trying to do something a little different and present him along with the

antiquities and make it more of a film than a TV show.

417

Right.

418

Well, has he seen the finished product?

419

Yes.

420

and what was his thought?

421

Um, he's a man of few words, but I'll say that I do.

422

You've seen them in the movie.

423

So, you know, he's got no problem telling you what he thinks about anything.

424

So I knew the, the, the one good news is that when he saw it, we were kind of with a, uh,

maybe 30 or 40 people in the theater.

425

And I knew if he was going to take me out, it wasn't going to be in that moment.

426

Cause there's other people around.

427

Right.

428

So he was going to be respectful, but it was in.

429

when I was driving with him the next day for about an hour.

430

thought, okay, he's gonna do it now.

431

uh But he didn't.

432

And along the way, he had us, now you, if I can go back to the point where you're saying

that it's about him and I don't bring in other people.

433

And I kept telling him, from the moment that I met him to the moment that we were shooting

that I want this to be about you in your words and things like that.

434

Yet everywhere we would go, he would say, okay, interview this person about me.

435

Interview this person.

436

And so out of respect, we did.

437

And when we got in the editing, of course, you know, we didn't use it.

438

And the first thing he said to me after the screening is he comes up to me and he says, um

Jeff, you didn't use any of the interviews.

439

And I said, did you miss them?

440

And he said, no.

441

And he left me alone because I knew what I was trying to do.

442

Right.

443

And I think it was different for him.

444

for somebody to say that, because he's used to things with other people.

445

so I was just trying to get...

446

my guess is it might have been, it's always better to hear what other people are saying

about us than hearing what we say about ourselves.

447

You know, and maybe there was an element of that, that he would rather see a movie where

other people are talking about him than him talking about himself.

448

It's probably a little bit uncomfortable.

449

It is, but he's used to that.

450

And I've had people that have seen it, um that have known him, worked with him 30 years,

40 years, and they didn't know he had a granddaughter.

451

They didn't know the names of his kids.

452

They didn't know his wife.

453

And so when they see this, they're like, my God, you know, to see him in a tender moment

from somebody that's known him for 30 or 40 years as the guy that you probably assume that

454

he is.

455

It was a little different for these people to see him in that light.

456

Yeah, yeah, I love seeing the pictures of his family and hearing all of that background

and about school.

457

And it was just really nice.

458

Yeah.

459

to find pictures from Egypt from the 1940s and 50s.

460

They didn't save a lot of things.

461

I bet.

462

I wanna move on to lessons for documentary filmmakers who might be tempted to just use one

person like that, or they might be tempted to use a voiceover, a guiding voiceover.

463

What did you learn leaning so heavily on one character?

464

Um, okay.

465

So you obviously have to have a way that you're going to ask your questions and what

you're going to cut to, to formulate the story because you do have only one voice.

466

And so there's really no, when I mean cut away, I mean to another voice, right?

467

You can cut away to a different, uh, like a transition or something different, but, but it

all goes to the questions.

468

It all goes, in all reality, goes to his answers too.

469

um

470

a perfect example.

471

Let me see if this is what you're talking about.

472

He's talking about something about where he almost was bit by a cobra and you bring out

Abbot or Costello, which one is he?

473

And he's playing, he's playing the little flute thingy that you would play in Egypt where

the cobra comes up out of the basket and he can't see it.

474

And then he puts,

475

He stops playing, puts his hat on the basket, plays again, and he sees the hat come up,

and then he sees the cobra, and then he runs away.

476

And that's exactly what, you know, Zahi was talking about how he stood real still because

cobras are blind and they can't see.

477

And then when he went back down, he ran away, right?

478

Right.

479

then, because also, how do you take that story, tell it by itself and make it

entertaining?

480

Right.

481

So you try to expand it.

482

You try to put things in because you're doing storytelling and, and, and not making a

PowerPoint presentation.

483

So if I could also give you one other way for us, which was not so much the words, but

what happened that you can never plan on, which is if you go to that photo that you saw

484

the five mummies.

485

So the first shot, or first oh shoot that we did, we were not even supposed to see that,

be anywhere near that.

486

So we were shooting in Saqqara and somebody, local person comes up and points down there

and says, um, mummies.

487

Mummies where?

488

Of course we're like where?

489

And they said, no down there.

490

And we're looking, we're looking, we don't see them.

491

So I finally went to the guy that was with us and I said, can we go down there?

492

And I said, listen, I promise I won't bring the cameras.

493

We're just curious.

494

And he says, sure.

495

So we go down and sure enough, there they were, the five mummies, right?

496

And then somebody said, do you want to bring cameras down?

497

I said, yes.

498

So we go down and we do that scene.

499

uh

500

But meanwhile, we take the photo.

501

now uh Zahi comes to LA a couple months later and we do the main interview with him to sit

down.

502

And I blew that up to take to that interview to show him and piece this kind of together.

503

And what you see in there when he says, did you take this?

504

Send me a copy because I don't have one.

505

That was a real moment.

506

And we did.

507

make a copy for him.

508

So he was back a couple months later and I am here in LA and said, here enjoy it.

509

He says, no, no, I can't take it.

510

Bring it with you when you come to Egypt.

511

Cause we were going back for the second trip in October.

512

And I said, okay, okay.

513

I don't want to, why not?

514

But I, but I take it for him.

515

And, uh, and then we were trying to figure out the day to give it to him.

516

And it turned out that the day that we gave it to him was literally the day that Jenna's

granddaughter was there.

517

So now, this is where the magic of this uh organic process.

518

Yes.

519

And so you find these things that you could never plan on in my mind that become great

moments in movies.

520

That thread from the original Saqqara seeing the five mummies to giving him the photo, to

taking the photo in Egypt.

521

We never planned it that way, nor could we, but it was, it just worked.

522

And so that's, again, these moments that you find where you're trying to do somebody by

themselves to make something entertaining, because a lot of times, you know, the dialogue

523

just keeps going, going, going, going, going.

524

You've got to just, okay, how do we get a break from him?

525

Because nobody's going to want to listen to somebody talk for 10 minutes in a row.

526

It just, right?

527

So,

528

So what do you do?

529

You got to interweave.

530

That's what we were trying to do.

531

And everywhere that we did take him, ah if you've noticed, is not like, okay, let's show

up here and let's do a history lesson on King Tut.

532

It's places that he was connected to and that he could talk about.

533

So it wasn't just taking you anywhere for any reason other than it's part of his story.

534

And then of course we were there.

535

I don't know if you saw, but we were there on a, when October 7th happened, we were

shooting.

536

Yeah, we were, we were in a, a, a Northern Egypt.

537

And I think when we mapped it out, we were about 140 miles from Gaza on October 7th,

shooting with him.

538

And then, oh my God, that's where the problems really start because

539

Now hindsight is great.

540

We're here a couple of years later.

541

We understand it didn't really spread into Egypt or anything, but at that time, nobody

knows what's going on.

542

And so we had crew that went home.

543

Um, we had to figure out what to do or can we shoot.

544

They were concerned kind of for us that like, okay, because you know, when you're shooting

with film crew, you kind of stick out like a sore thumb.

545

Uh, so we had to kind of figure things out and, know, he wasn't in a good mood.

546

And I don't mean that he was in a bad mood, but I think it really weighed on him.

547

Um, and then that affects what you're trying to get or what you see.

548

so.

549

That day that you saw Jenna there, that's when he came really back to life for us because

that's his life.

550

You see it and she's the sweetest thing.

551

But yeah.

552

just loved his hat, you know, and it was really neat because you then show about, you

know, he tells about, you know, why he's called the van and the hat and the whole history

553

of the hat and why the hat is so important.

554

And, you know, it starts with, you know, Jenna telling or him telling the story with

Jenna.

555

I thought that was a beautiful way that you wove that in there.

556

It was just great.

557

It stuck.

558

it's like a Superman cape, you know?

559

He's got like his character's outfit.

560

Once he puts it on, he becomes that being of this Egyptologist that is larger than life.

561

Yeah.

562

Now I want to move on since we have a little bit of time left to 41.

563

um you know, I, um, it was particularly special to me because my father was in the Reagan

administration.

564

worked in Capitol Hill from the time I was 13 to the time I was 20, uh, I don't know, 23,

24, something like that.

565

And, um, so I was there through the Reagan Bush years and through the Bush Cheney years.

566

And this just reminded me of everything that I lived through.

567

So it was fascinating.

568

And of course, I've never been to Kenning Buckport and I wasn't inside.

569

I only made it into the West Wing offices.

570

I never went into the residence or anything like that.

571

So it was, you had incredible access.

572

I'd love to know how you got all that access.

573

And then I really would like to understand, you you

574

committed years of your life uh to these subjects and what that's like.

575

Yeah, access, how did you get that?

576

What's it like committing years of your life to uh telling stories about these people?

577

So, okay, so 41, that came about from the wonder of it all, which was the astronaut, the

guys that walked on the moon.

578

There was a big screening at his library where we had, I believe it was six of the guys

that walked on the moon, but overall we had eight Apollo astronauts at one place because

579

he invited them.

580

Did a big screening and dinner and all that stuff.

581

And I walked out of there thinking, that was great.

582

We'll never do that again.

583

And then,

584

We got invited to Kenny Bunport, Walker's Point, their property, to have lunch.

585

And I was like, okay.

586

And we showed the movie again there.

587

And at that point, we had just finished The Wonder of It All.

588

was trying to figure out what to do next.

589

So I asked the chief of staff.

590

I said, is there any chance that he might be interested?

591

And she's like, no, no.

592

But out of respect and you coming up here,

593

write him something and I'll send it his way.

594

And I said, okay.

595

But I said that I was headed to Australia because the State Department invited me out to

show wonder out there as like a cultural exchange.

596

And I said, I'm going to be gone for a couple of weeks and I don't want to come back.

597

She said, sure, no problem.

598

But when I got back, landed, literally turned on the phone, there was an email from her

said he's intrigued.

599

I said, okay.

600

But I didn't do anything.

601

And again, was one of those things.

602

That one, six weeks later, from that moment, we were in Kenny Bugport's shooting.

603

Right?

604

So it uh was quick.

605

uh And having access with him was, I mean, was, mean, humbling, it's fantastic.

606

It's all these things that you could possibly imagine because you're doing something that

you never think that you would do, let alone making a movie about the guy.

607

But he was very, very...

608

just easy going, I'm sure you know this, right?

609

He respected by a lot of people.

610

And if I could tell you one story, which is towards the end of the shooting of that movie,

uh President Obama was giving him the Presidential Medal of Freedom Award.

611

And that's in the movie.

612

uh I asked if we could shoot that.

613

And they said, uh probably not, but we'll ask.

614

I said, okay.

615

you

616

got back to us that the White House is allowing one person with one camera and no audio.

617

So we had to do an onboard mic uh and I was the camera guy and we got his arrival.

618

He comes in, goes into the China room where at the time, I don't know if they still do

this, but at the time, each person that gets the award has to do an interview with the

619

White House uh for historical purposes.

620

And so, you know, I'm in there and I'm kind of at the side and I don't want to let him

know I'm there.

621

I don't want anything.

622

And at this point he was in his wheelchair.

623

And, you know, it's his day and all that stuff.

624

But sure enough, he sees me, he points to his assistant to take me over there and he comes

over to me and he says, how are you doing?

625

And I was like, sir, this is your day.

626

You know, you don't have to come over here.

627

I'm just trying to be out of your way.

628

But that's just the kind of guy that he was.

629

And, you know, we spent, I'd say just about three years on and off, of course.

630

That was 09 through 2012.

631

And when did he pass?

632

It was not that long.

633

2018 or 19, I believe?

634

It was right before COVID.

635

Yeah.

636

I didn't think it was that long before he passed actually, but he looked strong enough.

637

So I knew it was several years before.

638

uh But I also felt like it was during those years where he started getting very tender and

where he was starting to share, uh you know, how emotional everything was making him, you

639

know, about when he would talk about his family or when he would look back because he was

very vulnerable about those things.

640

um which made him all the more endearing to me, of course.

641

um But yeah, that was very powerful.

642

I loved how you showed how he um greeted the White House staff and how much the White

House staff loved him.

643

I thought that was really special.

644

um

645

I tried to, you know...

646

you've seen now, I liked if I can to give a different take or a different look on

somebody.

647

Right.

648

So the whole goal here was to take politics out of it.

649

And oh what is it?

650

To me, the story is the man.

651

It was about a man in his life who happened to become president.

652

And then how do you show the person also with the White House years without going into

detail about like policy or this, that, the other, because somebody else either has made

653

that movie or can make that movie.

654

I was strictly more about him.

655

when you see those moments, those are just, it's him, The camera doesn't lie, but, and

they came to him too, right?

656

He hadn't been there in how many years?

657

So they respected him, right?

658

So, it's...

659

had not forgotten their names.

660

They knew their names.

661

You just could tell that relationship was there.

662

So precious.

663

How did you get him to be so open and relaxed on camera?

664

Did you have to do...

665

anything or was that just him?

666

Because you're close up on him.

667

He's still really relaxed every time you're talking to him, whether he's on the boat or

whether he's, you know, in his office or whether he's driving a golf cart, he's very

668

relaxed with you.

669

Yeah, the only thing I can say about that is to me, I come as me, right?

670

You've seen me do this now for, we've never met before, right?

671

But I am what I am and this is it.

672

I don't come in like, um you know, with a suit tie, hair all slicked up, very formal.

673

I try to be relaxed, right?

674

I try to be this, that and the other, but at the same time, you kind of have to be

calculating.

675

You got to figure out like, okay, so if I can interview him for an hour and a half here at

this setting, how do you start the interview to get him more to say things that you want

676

and get him relaxed and then get into something else?

677

But also how do you bring somebody back down towards the end of the interview?

678

So they're not walking out of there that they hate you.

679

So you need to come back and you want them to invite you back.

680

uh Because you know, when you're dealing with somebody of that status, uh

681

He doesn't have to come back, right?

682

And I even asked him one time, I said, sir, of all the people in Hollywood that you could

have had tell your story, why are you allowing me to do it?

683

And he laughed and he just said, oh, my chief of staff is making me do it.

684

So I knew I was never gonna get an answer, but I don't know.

685

Sometimes I feel like.

686

One of the things that I thought was fascinating, you you, you stay away from politics.

687

Always really.

688

The only time you hear any of it is when he starts to talk about his journey in politics.

689

And even then it's more about his journey in the jobs.

690

It's not his political perspective per se until he starts talking about the races that he

had to run.

691

and there's the one thing that was funny is when you asked him about Ross Perot, I think

you asked him about, and he, he was absolutely adamant that he was not going to talk about

692

Ross Perot, but even more, he said he didn't like him.

693

And that is not George Bush.

694

And there's the one moment that he did not look relaxed, right?

695

wasn't, he got very tense.

696

And I just, you realize that if he was that tense on camera, can you imagine how angry or

whatever it was?

697

He must really feel, I don't remember what it was, but it was not good.

698

So, but what I did think was interesting is if you look back now, and I've seen a lot of

footage actually from the Bush Reagan years.

699

um

700

that are so diametrically opposed to what's happening in the Republican Party now.

701

And I was listening to him talk about the CIA and how he had to go up to Capitol Hill and

defend against um people in Congress who were tearing down the CIA and what was happening

702

in there and how he had to go up there and defend the CIA and the people that were working

there and the years of

703

workers that had built up their reputations there.

704

And he talked about that institutional knowledge and just their years of service.

705

um And you saw the respect for service workers, just like he saw it as if it was in the

military, which it is really, frankly.

706

um I'm glad he's not here to see what is happening.

707

I I just imagine his heart would be broken.

708

um

709

with what he feels like, you know, or what he said he felt like at that time, and how

strongly he felt about how that must be protected.

710

um And it was very shocking to me.

711

I have felt in my soul, because that's kind of how I was raised with sort of those

thoughts as a Republican at the time.

712

You know, I started feeling like, wait a second, I haven't changed.

713

What's happened?

714

And it's true.

715

And a lot of ways I haven't changed, but the Republican party has changed.

716

And I was able to see that clearly by hearing the president who was a Republican talk

about what it was like at the time.

717

So that was interesting um watching that now um just for me to have some perspective.

718

So I appreciated that it wasn't political per se, but I was able to contrast.

719

then and now, and it gave me a little bit of perspective of sort of what I think I expect

the um American Revolution of Ken Burns film to be when I watch that.

720

I'm looking forward to that coming out in a few days.

721

And that reminds me, he must have inspired Ken Burns some of your work because there is

his fingerprints in your work.

722

Is that true?

723

uh, I would say so in the fact that he let the, or he tries to let people do the talking

even though they're not alive.

724

Right.

725

So, so whether it's, it's the, uh, I'm not sure who he's using now, but you know, he was

using Peter Coyote for awhile.

726

ah

727

Coyote for American Revolution too.

728

Yeah.

729

So, so, so to try to get you into a time that we cannot really fathom, uh, for really, uh,

any different subject, whether it's baseball, whether it's the civil war or this, that,

730

the other, you can't, we don't understand what it was like then, but somehow he can get

the words from whatever person and bring it to life.

731

uh to me gives it that personal touch, which is something, yes, that I try to bring into

my films is the personal touch and steer clear of the noise.

732

uh And, know, the Bush 41, it uh has nothing to do with how to like Republican, how to

hate a Republican, right?

733

It's a human interest story.

734

And at the end of the day, you strip out all the Egyptian stuff.

735

It's a human interest story and the astronauts, it's a human story, right?

736

uh I'm not, uh you know, I'm not a science and technology guy with the Apollo program.

737

I'm not uh a political insider.

738

And I'm definitely not an Egyptologist or an archaeologist, but I like to learn about

people.

739

And also with the fascination of those different topics, that's how the

740

my two things come together.

741

know, now that I've, it's only hindsight that you can look back and figure out, okay, why

did I do this?

742

Yeah, yeah, I share that characteristic.

743

Actually, that's why you're here today.

744

I'm interested in what makes people tick and why they do what they do.

745

What I see in your films that is similar and that I love em about Ken Burns films is the

pacing, sort of the slower pacing, uh how the music works with the visuals.

746

uh That's the feeling that I'm talking about that's similar.

747

um Your films are very visual visually polished and rhythmically tight.

748

I'm wondering how you work with your DP and your editor.

749

Are you a director that shows up with a specific, you know, visual reference cuts in your

head or do you prefer to give everybody a lot of room to explore or like who do you take

750

with you?

751

Are you the director and you have everything in your head and you are the editor and you

just take some other people to help you do stuff?

752

Yeah, well, in that regard, I always like it to be a collaborative art, right?

753

It is a collaborative art in what we do.

754

But that being said, I always look for uh opinions from whoever, uh but ultimately the

final say has to be uh on my end.

755

But I don't want anybody to ever not come to me with an idea because you never know what

you could be giving up.

756

And so, but when we do go out and we do shoot,

757

If we have three cameras or four cameras or whatever it is, or you're dealing with a drone

or you're dealing with this, whatever, I can't be in every single place sometimes.

758

So sometimes you have to do a little bit of everything of what you just said.

759

Sometimes you can be right there and say, this is what I want.

760

Or you got to pick like, okay, what's important right now?

761

Cause you got an hour here and I got a camera over there, camera over there and he's

there.

762

What do I want?

763

um So it's a fast moving process.

764

uh

765

Sometimes you could be sitting around not doing anything for months, but once you get

there, you gotta go.

766

And then, and what the editor is the same thing, you know, um I like to also give the

editor their time to learn the material and see what they come up with and then bounce

767

ideas off of that.

768

And again, if I don't like it, then I will definitely say it.

769

uh But there's sometimes that I'll say things that they then put really into a visual

sense for me.

770

And I look at it, I don't know what I was thinking.

771

So it works both ways.

772

And I do want them to tell me if they don't like it, but tell me why you don't like it.

773

And then I'll make a decision.

774

So, yeah.

775

Kind of the way I am too.

776

One of the things that really struck me as I was prepping for this interview is that

you've done everything right.

777

You've had a successful theater documentary, an HBO film, a CNN acquisition, uh incredible

access to powerful people.

778

And yet, like so many of us, you've still had projects that were, I mean, I'm assuming

harder to place than it would be, like not quickly selling to different things.

779

and things have changed.

780

So how, as an artist and a business person right now, as you're trying to sell this film

or other ones that you've got in the works, what would you say to filmmakers as they're

781

pouring their hearts into these great works and still struggling to try to get something

sold to streamers or things like that?

782

Um, so the number one thing I think, and I live by this as well is you do what you believe

in because you've got to be the one that spends either the year two or three living and

783

breathing the project.

784

And in order to do that, you have to like what you're doing.

785

Otherwise, I believe that the end result will reflect your feeling on what you're doing.

786

You know, what's the saying that they always say a piece of you comes out in your movie.

787

And I didn't understand that until I went through it and I believe in that.

788

What I do is obviously that we fund this ourselves carefully.

789

We do do it so that we can make the project where nobody is telling us what to do, but

there's the good and the bad.

790

The good and the bad is I can go off and make what I want, but the bad is at the end of

day, I have to still go out and try to sell it, right?

791

um I've given up the, really the idea that you're gonna get a big agent and all those

things, and uh it's just not gonna happen.

792

because documentaries in themselves don't make a lot of money to where it would be

profitable for a William Morris type company, right?

793

Because they're dealing with uh big uh packages and this, that, and the other.

794

And so if you're going to do it, you got to do it.

795

and if you're going to take two or three years to do it, the landscape can change.

796

Right?

797

So, so whatever you think is good, like, you know, if you're making a movie about a

certain thing and then like say a Me Too movement comes out, well, that nobody may want to

798

look at your movie, depending on what it is or who's in the Oval Office, this, uh this,

this go.

799

uh So there are some things that are out of your hand that you can never plan on, but

circumstances in the world may dictate if somebody's willing to look or not look at

800

somebody's movie.

801

ah

802

So I just try to make it on what I can do.

803

And when I started in 20, I want to say Wonder was 2007 or 20, you know, the best place to

go for a documentary was theatrical when that was still going on.

804

And then if you went straight to DVD, you were considered a failure.

805

And then when I got into 41, the top of the heap then was really HBO with Sheila Nevins

and

806

And then as streaming was started, if you went straight to streaming, because remember

Netflix had that the red envelope for independent filmmakers, paid for a little bit of

807

money to help build their library, uh then you were considered a failure.

808

So now if you look at HBO, I mean, look, my opinion, but HBO is different now, right?

809

Because of the companies that have bought this and bought that.

810

So they look for different things.

811

now,

812

You are successful if you go streaming.

813

ah Because that's really where else are you gonna go these days.

814

um Theatricals may or may not happen and if they do, generally you do it because they're

going for Oscar consideration to rent LA and New York and play the week or two or whatever

815

the rules are.

816

um So I've just kind of picked a lane and stayed in it and not try to worry too much but.

817

It's not easy.

818

mean, it just is not.

819

You could see the movie and like the movie.

820

That's great.

821

But what we go through, you know this, and nobody will ask you, what is your process?

822

Right?

823

Or like you get a reviewer and then you get all upset because somebody wrote something

about this.

824

They see your movie for maybe an hour and a half, then want to tear you down with ever

asking the filmmaker, anybody, what did you go through?

825

Asking you, why did you make it like this?

826

Right?

827

So they're judging you without understanding anything.

828

And that I have a hard time with.

829

Yeah.

830

Well, I don't see a lot to judge here other than a lot of good things.

831

What I see is an industry that is struggling to make space for independent filmmakers.

832

And I see it for independent filmmakers.

833

I think you're very fortunate to be able to make your documentaries on your own dime.

834

I'm not able to do that.

835

I am stuck, you know, halfway with a film that's now looking for finishing funds.

836

And I don't have them.

837

And it's a great movie.

838

you know, the first film that I did is making money, but it's not making enough money to

be able to invest in this next movie.

839

And that's not uncommon.

840

Yeah.

841

we go through that too.

842

We do.

843

And I don't want anybody to think like we just have oodles of money over here.

844

Because like you say, it is not easy.

845

You've got to scrutinize everything on the budget.

846

How much is this flight?

847

How much is the one stop?

848

How much is the two stop?

849

Can you save money here?

850

How do you save money there?

851

We go through that like anybody in independent filmmaking.

852

And when you get to finishing, you got to make a deal with somebody.

853

It's like, oh, Lord.

854

Everything is just a struggle.

855

It really is.

856

Well, I have a whole bunch of other questions for you, but we unfortunately are running

out of time.

857

You have been a fabulous guest.

858

I appreciate your sharing your wisdom with me.

859

We do have one more section I want to get thrown in here.

860

It's everybody's favorite section.

861

We call it DocuVue Deja Vu.

862

And what we'd like you to do is share a favorite documentary that you think our audience

should watch.

863

boy, can I?

864

Can I hold you there for a moment?

865

I literally am blanking on the name of the document.

866

It was the Robert Evans documentary.

867

You can look it up on IMDB.

868

Yeah, yeah, OK.

869

I see it and everything but my god.

870

the kid stays in the picture.

871

Is that the name of it?

872

I believe so.

873

I'm gonna look that up.

874

stays in the picture.

875

It's older for sure, but I don't know if he ever saw it.

876

Yeah.

877

Yeah.

878

Cause it was a 2002 and then,

879

You like baseball.

880

You like baseball.

881

um I do.

882

uh

883

Where's that seat from?

884

That is from the Dodgers, Dodger Stadium.

885

Yeah.

886

What's that way?

887

What can I say?

888

I mean, you can't see.

889

Can I move the camera for a sec?

890

All right.

891

in Chicago, so I don't like the Dodgers.

892

That's okay.

893

I'm going to show you something.

894

Who is signed?

895

ah On that, that was the uh sort of the famous Dodger Enfield of Bill Russell, Davy Lopes,

Tommy Lasorda, Ron Sains, Steve Carly.

896

I have respect.

897

I don't like the Dodgers, but I have respect.

898

No, that was more the, that's where my heart is with those players than today's players.

899

I don't think you can see this, but this is also hanging up there, but you don't see.

900

uh

901

you gotta he gave you a tie

902

Well, actually there you see him.

903

Oh God.

904

That.

905

Yeah.

906

Yeah.

907

Yeah.

908

She's taking the picture, but basically um when we were coming out with that movie, we

were doing a screening down in.

909

of that and text it to me.

910

Okay, so he, um we were doing a photo shoot, publicity stuff.

911

And so his assistant comes up to me and says, here, he got you a gift.

912

uh And I said, okay, great.

913

I kind of put it down.

914

He says, no, no, no, you don't understand.

915

You got to open that right now.

916

And I said, okay.

917

So I opened it up and it was the time.

918

And then he says, it over.

919

And he said, it was imported 41.

920

And he says, he says, President Bush, um

921

only made two of those and he's wearing the other one right now.

922

And so, so then we took the pictures with them.

923

And then when he passed, and I had never worn this.

924

And when he had passed away, uh, we were invited to the funeral, but on it, the one that

was down in college station and USA Today had asked me to write an article on my time with

925

him.

926

And I ended it with.

927

telling this story, but I'm saying, but I said there's only one time that I'll wear this

tie and I'll never wear it again.

928

And that'll be, I think it was like on Tuesday, cause that was his funeral.

929

So I wore it at his funeral and then I put it in this case and then I'll never wear it

again.

930

But, but.

931

I mean that is just so, so special.

932

You know, one of the things that I love about your documentary and what I hate about

politics is that you never until after the president's leave office, you know, do ever get

933

to see the people.

934

You know, it's what I feel about Jimmy Carter.

935

Like Jimmy Carter was so misunderstood.

936

Same about Ford, same about Barack Obama.

937

You know, there was just so much about them that was misunderstood.

938

and not really known.

939

And some people, when they were in office, saw that side of them, probably those that knew

them before they ran, you know, and they stuck with them through everything.

940

um you know, the thing about George Bush is he was always the same from the time he was a

child till the time that he died.

941

And you can see that in his family, you know, how his parents were and how

942

you know, through his whole family life and how that thread has woven through that family.

943

It's beautiful.

944

It's, are so blessed that you had that time with them and how much respect he had for you.

945

Clearly that gift, think, shows how much he appreciated what you did for him in sharing

his story and the respect for his family and his work.

946

He wrote me a letter after and...

947

You know, I'll never say what he wrote, but it was uh pretty special, you know, and he

didn't have to do that.

948

I don't do these things for them to, you know.

949

praise or not praise or whatever it is, I do it because it's what I want to do and I like

the subject, right?

950

But then the personal stuff comes along with it and it is, uh those are the moments that

are the most fulfilling when you go through this whole process.

951

I would agree.

952

I just came back from being in New Orleans with a veteran that was in my film and he's

102, C.O.

953

Bauer.

954

And I've now, he's shocked when I told him this, but I've now been with him since he was

95.

955

And he just can't believe that he'll be 103 in May.

956

So it'll be eight years that we've been friends.

957

And now his family is like my family.

958

And he invited me to New Orleans to be with him.

959

and we just have become so close and he'll say, we're getting our message out.

960

So his message has become our message.

961

And it's such, I feel so honored.

962

I've learned so much from him.

963

And, you know, in a sense, when I was watching your movie that, you know, George Bush is a

veteran and you can see that, that

964

that runs through him, through and through that veteran mindset of what he did for his

country and what it meant to fight for his country and his feelings of when the country

965

was attacked.

966

And when you've spent any time with our veterans from that time period, it changed them.

967

And that is just what I love, spending time with these people that have lived through that

time period, because it touches me and is imprinted on me.

968

I just have such respect.

969

And so you were...

970

they have such different perspective on life, how things should go.

971

And if you ever see a president in waiting, know...

972

I'm next.

973

That's next.

974

I'm going to watch it next.

975

But I've got, imagine this, right?

976

So I have four pairings of presidents and vice presidents that I'm putting into this movie

to not really talk about politics, right?

977

But it's the relationship between a president and vice president.

978

And at the end of the day, people will ask me, they'll like, well, who's your favorite?

979

And I'm like, well, it's kind of like your kids, kind of like each one for different

reasons.

980

Or somebody wants to bitch and moan, you got Cheney.

981

Or on the other side, ah.

982

You interviewed Clinton, it's like, listen, here's what I say.

983

If you were in a bar with any one of these guys and you didn't know their name and you

just sat down and had a beer with them, you like them.

984

It gets all filtered down through media and all that crap and then you never get to

understand or learn about the person.

985

Well, I think in this time where you have a different president and all of them have come

together to sort of stand in a different way, in a different light, casting a different

986

light in the presidency and against, you know, in for America in a different light.

987

um You see them all differently.

988

I mean, they are all together and unified and laughing and.

989

You they're, you know, just, can see George Bush and Michelle Obama are close and you just

see the friendships there and you can tell there's camaraderie and they really are

990

different people, I think, when they were younger, but you can see a different side of

them.

991

And yeah, I see what you're talking about.

992

You have been very blessed to have had those opportunities with those people and to know

them for sure.

993

Um, and, I, I humbly, I, I know that, um, how we've been able to do that.

994

I don't know.

995

I I still wonder how we got it, but yeah, no, mean, in my perspective has changed too, you

know, uh, because of getting to spend time with these guys or anything, it's just, um, you

996

realize really what's important and what's not.

997

And, um, yeah, so sorry for the lor-

998

Okay, that's all right.

999

Now we are going to go into everybody's favorite section, docu-view deja vu.

01:16:56,646 --> 01:17:02,314

All right, tell us what documentary you want to share with our audience that you think

everybody should see.

01:17:02,398 --> 01:17:07,860

Okay, so I'm going to pick an older one, which was called The Kid Stays in the Picture.

01:17:07,900 --> 01:17:09,631

And it was Robert Evans.

01:17:09,631 --> 01:17:12,382

He's not in it, but his voice is in it.

01:17:12,502 --> 01:17:16,844

And the way they shot it, was uh very...

01:17:16,844 --> 01:17:29,029

The way they used the camera for the documentary, the way they used the colors, it was

more of using uh film tools in a time when I don't think really documentaries were coming

01:17:29,029 --> 01:17:31,986

across as uh more of uh

01:17:31,986 --> 01:17:34,147

film look.

01:17:34,687 --> 01:17:37,008

And it was just different.

01:17:37,008 --> 01:17:47,092

the way they created, I believe, the way they use the photos, there was a process in which

even today they call it the kid stays in the picture effect.

01:17:47,873 --> 01:17:58,617

so that would be my selection because that one has generally stuck with me uh for 23

years, uh than most.

01:17:58,617 --> 01:18:01,187

So uh that's my selection.

01:18:01,187 --> 01:18:02,417

that's interesting.

01:18:02,417 --> 01:18:03,297

Thank you so much.

01:18:03,297 --> 01:18:05,478

I really appreciate that recommendation.

01:18:05,478 --> 01:18:08,649

And thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your experience with us.

01:18:08,649 --> 01:18:10,379

It's been lovely getting to know you.

01:18:10,379 --> 01:18:14,080

Thank you for making your films known to our audience.

01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:18,842

I'm just super excited that I've now discovered them and um just lovely to meet you.

01:18:18,842 --> 01:18:22,132

I've been touched by your work and learned a few things myself.

01:18:22,132 --> 01:18:25,663

So I do hope that you'll come back when your next picture is ready.

01:18:25,663 --> 01:18:27,994

And I wish you all the best.

01:18:28,006 --> 01:18:28,456

with this.

01:18:28,456 --> 01:18:32,430

I will tell you your experience with Virgil Films is going to be top-notch.

01:18:32,430 --> 01:18:35,772

ah I have just loved my relationship with them.

01:18:35,772 --> 01:18:37,964

So you will be blessed.

01:18:38,166 --> 01:18:39,692

Well thanks, it's been wonderful.

01:18:39,692 --> 01:18:40,986

I appreciate the time.

01:18:41,186 --> 01:18:41,908

Yeah.

01:18:41,908 --> 01:18:42,720

All right, everybody.

01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:48,944

Thank you so much for listening to Documentary First, where we believe everybody has a

story to tell, and you can be the one to tell it.

01:18:48,944 --> 01:18:50,306

Bye, everybody.