On February 1st, I kicked off the month and a restorative weekend with two amazing sisters: Lisa Hurley (she/her) and Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her)!

We had the juiciest conversation about Black joy, community building, and doing the hard work of human-ing to rebuild our world. ❤️‍🔥🌍🫂

🥳 Be sure to upgrade to a Seedling Membership to listen get the full conversation on our private podcast feed.

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About Lisa Hurley

Lisa Hurley is an Anthem Award-winning activist, writer, and community builder. She is the author of Space to Exhale and the Founder of The Great Exhale. Her work operates at the nexus of self care, community care, joy, and rest. She is an Executive Member of the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences, a Juror for the Anthem Awards, and a Founding Member of The Book Academy. A respected voice, Her words have been quoted in Forbes, Essence, Entrepreneur, and Adweek. Lisa is a Reiki Master Teacher, and is also known for her inspiring affirmations on TikTok. Of Caribbean heritage, Lisa has an understandable preference for warmer climes. Her love languages are sunshine, naps, and laughter.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/iamlisahurley/

About Sharon Hurley Hall

Sharon Hurley Hall (she/her) is an author, educator and anti-racism activist. A former journalist and writer, Sharon is also the author of I'm Tired of Racism: True Stories of Existing While Black and Exploring Shadeism. In addition, Sharon is the Founder of Sharon’s Anti-Racism Newsletter (where she's on a mission to fight racism one article at a time) and the SHHARE anti-racism membership community. In what passes for her spare time, Sharon provides mentoring for introverted Black women and creates courses to help people share their important stories.

https://linkedin.com/in/sharonhh

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hey y'all this is Sam with the roots of Change Agency

and the roots of Change Podcast

and I am so excited

because I have two amazing sisters with me today

hey I have Sharon Hurley Hall and Lisa Hurley

Today we're talking about sisterhood

radical joy um

and radical rest um

really so excited to have you

welcome Sharon welcome Lisa

um Sharon

do you want to kind of just start off

and introduce yourself

hey everybody I'm so happy to be here

uh this is a topic that is

getting closer and closer to my heart

I have not always been good at doing the rest bit

but yeah it is great

I am the founder of Sharon's anti racism newsletter

the author of anti racist racism

the founder of the sheer anti racism community

and an educator as well haha

of refuse this haha

ah thank you

and um Sam

thanks for for having me

thanks for having us I'm so happy to be here

and um

huh these are are topics very

very dear to my heart um

rest joy

advocacy activism

sisterhood all

all of the above uh

so I'm happy to you know

jump into a discussion about that

and I am the founder of The Great Exhale

the author of space to exhale

and um yeah

that that's me

I think right

did I did I leave anything out SIS did I miss anything

haha I think that was it

no I think that that will do for now

more things will come out as we go

more things exactly

more things oh

and we should also say that way back when

we also cofounded and cohosted the Introvert

Sisters podcast yes

yes yes

yes which ran for a whopping 78 episodes MHM

yeah we're

we're gonna link those because um

it sounds like people are still listening

which I love um

and yeah I mean

I would love like Lisa

just to start off you know

for both of you you

you both have accomplished so much

and we were talking before we started recording just

you know the sisterhood rivalry of like

constantly wanting to do better than your big sister um

so why did you start the Great Exhale and

and what was that kind of journey to getting there

um and so uh

I started The Great Exhale because I had been doing

I've been

I've gotten involved in activism online

especially on LinkedIn uh

George Floyd all of that was going on

and I just made a decision to start speaking up more

and um

so I as

as I dove deeper into if

if dove is a word is it dove or dived

side note

side note but people understand what I mean

but as I dove deeper I got deeper into um

activism um

myself and the the other activists around me

I could tell that like I was exhausted

everyone was exhausted and um

black women seem to be having it

worse than other communities

and so I realised that black women needed a uh

a safe a

a a space where they could relax

feel safe not have to be on all the time

not have to uh

be performing labour all the time

um and yeah just

just just a

a space where they could you know let

let their let their hair down

take a breath uh

relax and just be themselves

and so that's how the Great Exhale started

and then in terms of what you spoke about

that mentioned earlier um

about Sharon and I and um

you know competing I

I don't I don't even know if it is

if it's is like a competition thing

it is more that and

and this is for for everybody listening in Sam

cause you already know this

but uh

Sharon is big sis and I'm little sis

and there is always no matter uh

how old you get there's always this thing as little sis

at least for me where um

like Sharon is a great big sis

she's an octopus

right she

she she does cool things

she hangs out with cool people

she sets a great example um

she's always exploring and

and evolving and doing exciting stuff

and so even though obviously we're

you know older and age now

but there's still that little girl

that little sister I

was like oh

what's Sharon doing you know

how can how

how can I do it too because she makes it look uh

cool and

you know you just kind of like oh

that's one of the people I wanna be and be like

when I grow up it's

it's like that kind of a thing

and so she's been an author

I don't even know how many books

she's actually published some are not

some are e books only and she has a few in print

and so yeah

I always want to be in that way

be like big sis as well become an author

and so now uh

I finally am so that's uh

I'm publishing space like hail and it's coming out in

so yeah that's it

I love that and I'm sure it was really

it's really helpful too

cause you guys were both doing so much work

just to have each other to support and have that system

yes yes

for sure for sure

I mean you know

the sisterhood the sisterhood element of the

of the introvert sisters was

was was a huge thing

and you know

we kept like meeting these people say wait

you all are really sisters

you all are not sistahs you all are sisters

you know that kind of thing

we're really sisters we're really sisters

and so that that support that

that interest in what other

each other's doing

that desire to see each other succeed that

you know showing up for each other that

I mean that's kind of how we've always lived

and so what you see of us online

what people see of us online

is not something we're putting on

for online you know

that is that is though

that is that is the way it is right

we we

we show up for each other

we support each other we counsel each other

we you know

we do all of those things

you know right now

we were talking um

you know Lisa will message me and say hey

what do you think of this thing that I'm doing

for the book and I messaged her yesterday

when I launched my new live show

and say how did

how was the show how was the show

you know really right and

and we we

you know

we very successfully walk the line between support and

um wanting to help the other

each other elevate mm hmm

right we do it with love

yeah we do it with love yeah

well I

I think it's really great because

you know obviously

we are recording this uh

February 1st we are in a moment haha

um particularly in the United States

but we know

the United States really has impact globally

um and I just

you know I

I think so much about the United States as a family

like we are really dysfunctional right now

and we do not know how to repair

we don't know how to communicate um

and so I imagine you know

for both of you

it's really helpful to kind of have those

those challenging moments together

so that you can then do that in a more safe way outside

and help support people as they're trying to

you know

just live and and do that in this in this wild world

yeah you know

you know

um sister having a base of um

community within family right

and so you know

if you think of it that way

so Sharon and I are are our own um

sisterhood community

and it's interesting to me that both of us

in different ways have ended up um

founding communities but when you

when you think of it it's like

well that's what we've always done

we've always it started out with

for each other and expanded out to our friend group

and then expanded out to a wider circle

and expanded out to folks on LinkedIn and um

and so you know

but it's all based on

how we have always shown up for each other

you know so the

the generosity of uh

you know the what

what I call the Ministry of presence

literally showing up being

being present um

doing check ins how are you feeling

as Sharon said earlier how did this go

how are you feeling about this

what did you think about that

and there's also girl why did you do that sometimes

right but also

can I can I jump in just to say that there's also

there's also the Grace cause as you pointed out

sound like we're doing a lot of stuff

we do not expect each other to watch every single thing

attend every single event

but you know

when it is important to do the check in

we do the check in and I just want to point out

we know we're talking about the big sis

little sis thing that you know

in this case

I'm the one that is following Lisa's example

because she was the first one to found a community

right and so

you know there you are leading the way

I'm saying hey

okay good idea

right and because of that

because of that so um

you know in

and because we've both taken different routes

with publishing for example uh

but there's a lot of stuff that I

you know that in different ways we

we both don't know but now yeah

she's done self publishing

I'm doing trad publishing

but we kind of like cross pollinate

help each other out hey

here's what I Learned from the publisher

you can do this for your book

or hey here's how I handle this as an indie

you should do that for your book um

and so that that is extremely um

helpful and also with the communities

you know um

Sharon asked me although she's much uh

better with tech and that kind of thing that I am

but you know

she asked hey

uh which uh

platforms did you research

what was your what was your experience

why did you choose uh

the one that you ended up with etcetera etcetera

and so at least you know

having a resource that you can um

call on and without it be feeling uh

transactional right

because we we just do it for each other

it just is it just is natural

you know and you genuinely want the other person to uh

do their best be their best

be their biggest make a splash

and we go out of our way to help each other

you know yeah

it's very interesting actually

that we keep taking almost the same path

like who knew that

we were both going to end up being writers

but then I ended up on the freelance route

and you ended up on the corporate route

yes right

yes but then we both ended up in marketing

but you were doing marketing for corporates

and I was writing about digital marketing

you know it's like

and it's so

it's like we we keep having these which

which is good because it brings

a richness to the conversations

that we're able to have

most of the ways in which we're able to

support each other and the ways in which we're

able to support our wider network and our communities

because we always have that

that depth of experience between us

to bring to any conversation

yeah and

and and showing up at

at times like there's also having um

not just skills and experience

but also emotional intelligence

I I definitely remember when uh

Shawn was visiting me in in uh

New Jersey at some point

I was completely slammed with like

5 million things to do and I had an

an interview to plan for actually no three interviews

ha ha to plan for the next day

I hadn't even started them

it was like 8:00 at night

and Sharon took one look at me

I was I I literally had been just like

typing like the Kermit meme all day right

haha and she took one look at me

and then next thing you know

I got um

an email you know

which is funny

cause we were sitting like right next to each other

but I got an email and she had planned out um

the interviews for me

right then when she was launching

her store her SARN's store

her Sharon's Anti-Racism Newsletter store

and she said at one point she said she want to do merch

I wouldn't even let her start

I had been through it was hell

I had been through the hell

I was like I don't want that for anybody else

I immediately texted her and said if you

if it's good with you send me your login information

I will set the store up for you and she did

you can go in and change anything

but let me do this so you don't have to deal with it

oh my god it was it was so amazing

and so you know

one day I wanted a merch store

and the next day

Lisa had set up the store with 10 products right

I mean like most people

most people don't see the behind the scenes stuff

yeah right yeah

behind but you know

in in in what you the bit that people see

there is a depth at the back of that right

to to the to the level of support

well there's like a level of reciprocity

and and I've been talking a lot about that around like

you know there

there's just in this world that we live in right now

there's just this constant like

what are you doing for me

what's in it for me and it's like

what if we just got rid of that entirely

and we just started giving

and then what what do you feel when you start giving

you know and so I

what I love about y'all is that you're able to like

do that in like this kind of safer container

and then it just pays off and pays off

and then you grow and like

that's what you're saying now is like

you're doing that

for folks on LinkedIn that you have never met

like Sharon and I were

we've been close for so long for a few years now

and we've never met in person

oh that's awesome though

but but you know

it really is possible

to build genuine friendships and connections um

you know parasocially and sometimes in some ways

sometimes even closer than people that you might know

um you know

IRL right um

and it's interesting

because there's something about the parasocial thing

that you can you can go in one of two directions

you either get very Instagrammable and um

uh you know

this is this is my best life

I'm living my best life and it's very curated

and there's nothing wrong with that

I love a beautiful feet I won't

I won't lie but then

there's also the other side of being able to show up

just as you are like just

just this week I actually had either two or three uh

meetings with with

with some folks right

what

what is co working sessions when I tell you I showed up

we both showed up ratty sweatshirt

I was in my head wrap

no makeup you know

coffee mug with a chip you know

you understand what I'm saying right

just like literally as you are very real

very genuine very authentic

and um

it was and it was extremely helpful to

know that you could show up with

this person that you've never actually met

in real life but it's so the connection is so real

you know

it actually reminds me we

we were recently Sam and I

were both in a meeting of another community

that were in call the flow lab

uh huh and it was one of those situations where where

you know it's okay to turn up and say man

what is wrong with this world

and here's how I'm feeling about it and

and just to support each other through that and

you know you know

and to actually throughout the program

uh huh

and go straight to

you know here's

here's where I am here's what's happening yeah

yeah it's

it's going back to being human

which is what I talk about all the time

and I think so much of our

you know work and even as entrepreneurs

we kind of fall into that trap of what work is

what we've been told work is

and we could just blow it all up

we could just be human and connect

and that ends up being so much more

what I like to say juicy

really juicy yeah

that's what that's what Lisa was getting at

you know I was reflecting the other day

I still have three people in my network

who show up for everything I do

that I met in that very in

like in the first three months that I was blogging

on a site that is now defunct

but I met those people and we have a genuine friendship

and relationship and support for each other

one of them was the first person to step in

with a founding member subscription

when I launched the newsletter

you know

he he turned up and when I was

when I was um

fundraising for the audiobook

he put some money in you know

it's like one of those people

but but also

you know

he's one of these people that I can talk tech with

so we have lots of conversations about

what tech are you using how is this working

how can you make this better and so on

so you know

it's like we have those relationships

and they're real relationships

like relationships IRL do

you know

built around mutual interests and understanding

and just because you've never met someone in person

and what I've discovered

and having finally met a few people

um in real life

after having interacted with them solely online

is that those are genuine relationships

because when you meet them

it is not like meeting a stranger yeah

it is meeting someone you already know

yes you have

you have history you have history

yes exactly

and so I think also Sam

cause if I can just pick up on what you said about

you know

giving from the heart

I think this is not exactly what you said

but I think it was what was underlying it genuinely

without it being transactional

and in my experience

you always get benefits from that things

always come back round when you least expect it

one of those people that you

you you gave unstintingly to

is gonna come back and support you

at the time you need it most

so yeah we

we need more of that we need more humaness

we need more you know genuineness

yeah and

and and we also need I

I love this this um

conversation about reciprocity

there's a friend of mine that um

hey Alexis Mabley who says that

you know

relationships should be bidirectional and mutually um

right right right

right

mutually supportive right

and so um

I really do believe in that

there's also that it's okay sometimes

I would say all the time sometimes just give

sometimes just give and it

it if you give while thinking

what am I going to get back from this person

you're already setting yourself up for failure right

yes and for a bad experience

just give right um

again when

you know when Sharon wrote up my three interviews she

she had no she had

she wasn't even thinking about a store at that point

right but she

she just did it because it was the right thing

and the good thing to do at that time

and she knew I needed that help right

and then probably it was

I think it was literally years later

is you see what I'm saying

but even like with um

with

with strangers or people that you don't know as well

just give and that person might not be the person

that returns that blessing to you

it might come down a paid forward thing right

say what a paid forward kind of approach

paid forward but but but but but but actually yeah

the thing to do I agree with you

you know the question is

are you able to give or you don't able to give

not what can you get back

yes haha right yes

that's it well

and I what I love too is like there is

there's magic there in that unknowing

because you're giving

and you don't know what is gonna come back

what whatever it may be

and I think that's beautiful because I

I do always get something back when I give always

always

even if it's just the knowledge

that you have helped someone have a better day yeah

in whatever way it is I mean

I mean that is a great feeling and you know

that is its own reward yeah

you know you know

the you know the

the gift that you have

the ability in a particular moment

to help someone out of a tough spot

in whatever kind of tough spot it is

doesn't have to be financial

sometimes

the gift is showing up for that person and listening

right the gift is that that person called on you

and you were able to give them the gift of your time

right it's not it's not about money necessarily

you know it's the gift of presence

the gift of listening the gift of

of sharing a moment all of those are gifts that

that you gain something from

and that you get back in turn later

at the time when you need it so it's not about

I think

I think what I'm trying to say is it's not for me

it's like I if I give

I give right with open hands

with open hands

with open hearts without expecting anything in return

but I know that the way the universe works is that

that I'm gonna get blessings

by being open in that moment

because the universe always uh

is moving toward achieving balance

inescapably at all times whether we can see it or not

so yes absolutely

if you give the the other and it's

it's interesting you know

if you think of of

you know physics or

you know quantum physics or whatever

but you have you have started the

the giving side

the receiving side is they're waiting right for you

for you as well

and it's just a matter of when it catches up with you

there are times when it is immediate

there are times when it takes a while

but that balance at some point

you know that

that equation is gonna be balanced on the other side

inevitably you know yeah

oh I really appreciate that um

we do we're gonna transition into our private podcast

um so thank you

everyone who did listen to the public version of this

um we're gonna have a private version

um in a week

so be sure to subscribe to The Roots of change

a podcast for that at rootschangemedia.com

rootschangemedia.com but what I would love to get into with a private

podcast is just

the you know

the the conversation around uh melanation

haha and um

how less melaninated folk

can really build community in a real way um

and like what that looks like in a concrete way

cause I I love where we're going with this conversation

and I think a lot of folks are just like

I don't know where to start what do I do