Are you overlooking the leader right in front of you?

Joshua Williams has spent 16 years in youth ministry watching problematic teenagers become faithful leaders a decade later. His approach? Don't look for the most talented—look for availability and willingness.

One student crossed so many lines that Joshua had to pull him from youth group for three months. But he didn't stop investing. He kept meeting with him, kept pouring into him. Today, that "problematic" student is thriving in his walk with God and raising up leaders himself.

The lesson applies to your business: Sometimes the person who annoys you most is exactly opposite your personality—which means they bring something valuable you're missing. Don't surround yourself with carbon copies. Look for puzzle pieces with different strengths.

Joshua learned the hard way that you can't carry weight God didn't give you. Do what God called you to do, then trust Him with the rest. If you've been faithful and it doesn't succeed by the world's standards, you've still succeeded in God's eyes.

Redeem Your Business Today by the Following:

How can we honor God in our business?

1. God has entrusted people to you. Your job isn't to dominate but to love them first and raise them up as an example of Christ.
2. Don't expect perfection before investing. Coach emerging leaders through their struggles rather than only promoting the "safe" choices.

One challenge from today:

1. Is there someone you've written off because they're difficult? Maybe God put them there for you to pour into. Plant that seed. You might be surprised what grows.

More about Josh Williams

https://www.youtube.com/@BeyondTheNumbersPodcast

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2 Timothy 2.2 says, the things that you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses is the same commit doubt of the faithful men who will be able to teach others also. That's the discipleship cycle. And that's also the leadership cycle that if I'm a leader, I'm teaching somebody else who's faithful, who as they rise up in leadership are gonna be able to pass it on to the next generation, you might say of leaders. And that provides continuity in leadership and in direction, especially in business and in your church or family or life or wherever you're at.

Today I brought on Joshua Williams. He is a pastor, a youth pastor for a while. I think he's an executive pastor now. He's been doing a lot of different things. He's also the podcast host of Beyond the Numbers. And so we're gonna talk about how to find that next good leader because that sometimes is ambiguous. How do you find it? And it's not as easy as just looking at a person's resume, but there's things to look at. And so Joshua, thank you. Welcome to Redeeming Business today.

And to start off with, I'd like to ask all my guests, what is one way that you have found to honor God in your business that other people may not know about?

Well, thank you for having me, David. I'm happy to be here. I think one of the biggest things that I've learned is just kind of like when Jesus gave that parable of the servants that got the talents and being faithful with the talents that God gave you. In the same aspect, I also find that with the people that I work with, ⁓ whether it's volunteers or whether I have ⁓ students or staff, it's being faithful and realizing that first and foremost, God has given me whatever

Mm.

direct control in that point in that life, but it's also not just to guide them, but it's also to help lead and raise them up. And so sometimes it's not being so domineering, but realizing that he loves them first and foremost. And I've been entrusted with them for whether it's a role, whether it's a job, or whether it's just one simple message. And so I have to honor what God has given me and show that love that he has for them to them, be an example of Christ to them.

Very good, thank you very much. Example, always good thing. So you were a youth pastor and I'm sorry, give us a little background into how God has led you in your life as far as where you were growing up and not the whole life, but recently to where you are today and the things you're doing today. In first grade, you did, second grade, no, I don't want to go that far, but yeah, give us a little background of your life there.

In first grade, I know.

Yeah,

so I grew up in Rhode Island, so if you get me talking really fast, you'll hear me throw out my A-Rs and A-Ws. I have two daughters, things like that. But I grew up in Rhode Island, spent first 20 something years of my life there, met my wife who's from Florida, moved down there, got married. We've been married for 17 years now. And we have two amazing daughters who are little balls of energy, a five-year-old and an eight-year-old.

I grew up and I was the first kid in my family ever to go to college. I had a really great youth pastor that poured into me and took me from a socially awkward, really shy kid and just kind of brought out a lot of the different talents and abilities that he saw. God had kind of blessed me with, and he did that, I mean, he was a youth pastor for 25 years. He did that for a lot of different students. But through that, I had a passion for

Hmm, okay.

the ministry first, it was missions, and then that kind of came alongside with youth. And then I've been doing a youth pastor role for about, at this point, almost 16 years, ⁓ different places. I've been down in Tampa for a long time. I was over in Los Angeles for a while, most recently in Knoxville, and then now I'm in Thompson, Georgia, and love doing it. But in the process, I've also...

done children's ministry, I was an executive pastor for a while, and so I I oversaw a lot of the staff and helped with a lot of the building of the stuff, and at one point was even being trained to take over a church itself up until God was like, nah, I still want you to work with youth, and so continued following that and love every minute of it, seeing God just raise up this next generation.

Okay.

Very good. Very cool. So as a youth pastor then, you have kids in your group that you like to raise up as leaders to kind of lead the kids for the year or a couple of years or whatever. That's the question. How do you find that next group of leaders and what do you look for? What are, go ahead, start there.

Yeah, okay. So we do, ⁓ different places that I've worked, we call it different things where I'm at now, we call them crews. And so we have crew leaders and those are student leaders ⁓ that basically they oversee a small group. ⁓ Since I've stepped in, I've given them a lot more responsibilities as well besides just the one time a month small group, but also reaching out to these students throughout the week and connecting with them and making sure they're doing okay, praying for them.

And one of the things that I look for is, more than anything, look for availability and willingness. Those are the first two key things. Obviously, you wanna make sure that there's a walk there and there's levels of leadership, but I've worked with students that had every skill and gift to be a leader and yet did not wanna apply them.

And so those aren't the first things that I look for. It would be great if they have those leadership abilities and all that, but the biggest things I'm looking for is a student that's willing and really hungry to do it. And with our newest batch, we just started over this last summer with a new group of student leaders, and that's basically what we started with, was students that were like, here's the commitment that you're signing up for. I believe when it comes to our student leaders, commitment is everything.

layer it with a lot of responsibility so they know this is what they're signing up for. You can also keep them in track by doing that. Hey, this is what you signed up for. This is what I really require you. But it also weeds out a lot of those that they're just looking for a quick sense of power. When it comes to that level of responsibility, the students read it and they're like, okay, is this something that you wanna start doing? then from there,

Sure.

⁓ I've kind of filtered in a lot of different on a monthly basis we meet and kind of teach them different leadership principles that carry over and not only biblically but also just in life itself.

Yeah, that's neat that you're able to do that on a high school level. I never was able to, I never had much opportunity to lead at the high school level. And that was probably for me or whatever, but yeah, it'd been nice to have. I remember in one of the churches that I had, they had a ministry, they were looking for fat people. This guy was all into acronyms, but faithful, available, and teachable. Yeah, it was an acronym. Yeah, it's faithful, available, and teachable.

Yeah.

I was hoping it was gonna be an acronym.

But yeah, that's when he first said that, like fat people. But yeah, and it goes a lot with what you're saying. He's available, willing to put forth the effort. It's going to take some time to lead and to do things. That's very good. Is there any red flags that you look for that even though they're available that you're like, eh, maybe not on this person?

I'm always looking for those that say yes to everything and also what their schedules kind of look like. Like I don't sit there and go over their calendar, but one of the things that we have in our little sheet that we have them fill it out is like what things are you involved in currently? And typically if a student has like a paragraph worth of extracurriculars, I don't, it's not an automatic no, but I want to talk to them because.

A lot of times with some of these students, there's the overachievers. And what I find is not so much that it's gonna hinder their leadership ability, but I wanna make sure that we're teaching them at a young age, good boundaries to set. Because they might not burn out in our program, but if they burn out in college, and we haven't taught them those proper things, we can help save some of their ability to not burn themselves out. And so it's really important to look at.

what they're already committing to. And then a lot of times we also look at how long they've committed to some of these things. And some of these students, it's kind of like the flavor of the month. Like I signed up for this but didn't really complete it. I did this, didn't really complete it, did this, really didn't like it and all that. And again, when you're asking a student to be a leader over other students, there does need to be that level of...

We don't expect you to know everything off the top of your head and jump in fully prepared, but in the same aspect, students, and I tell this to my adult leaders too, students, especially at that age, they're looking for consistency. You can give me an older person, a younger person, lots of talents, little talent. The biggest thing that is gonna matter to these students is a consistent leader. If you show up on a weekly basis and you're there for them. And if we can't have that consistency, that's kind of like a red flag because

you don't want them to develop those relationships and then that leader is gone for two months and they're like, man, you're breeding trust issues at that point.

Sure, sure. And that's so true in adult level too is the trust. Are you there? Are you showing up when you're supposed to show up? I can't have a leader who's late for work on a habitual basis. They need to show up to work. That's like basic, but yeah. If you give them a responsibility, give them an extra task, did they do it? know, those kinds of things are just small things that are they faithful to do it? If they're not, if I have to continue to follow up on them, I'm not going to put them in leadership because

Thank

Absolutely,

They

have to be the leader and follow up on themselves and be self-led kind of thing that way. So yeah, a lot of good things. Do you have any specific story in your life that, know, picking out of leadership was important or how this ⁓ made an impact in your life?

for me as a like someone calling me out or a student that I had or

Yeah.

Either one, leave it up to you. Sorry about the ambiguity, but.

Okay, ⁓

I think especially being in youth ministry for so long, the coolest thing for me is kind of watching, I call them the ripples. They're what happens along the way in the water after you're out of the picture. And looking at some of those students, I had a couple of students that were more on the tougher side. ⁓ One student in particular that is, the first time I've ever asked a student that they need to take a break from youth ministry,

I don't like to throw that out, never really threw that out, but they kept on crossing the line and causing issues and ⁓ almost led to someone getting injured and finally I was like, I just need you to take a break. And with that, when I pulled them aside and talked to them, the promise was, even though I'm having you take a break from our normal meetings, I will meet with you as much as you want to make sure that you're still being fed and all that kind of stuff, but we're gonna do a three month break for right now. And.

this student was the key problematic, know, joked around when I set foot into a church, I'm surprised I'm not burning type thing. And yet, just being there consistently to pour into him, making sure that there were other leaders that were pouring into him. The coolest thing for me is just going back and now we're a decade or two back from when I taught him and seeing how he is with his walk, but then also just where he is in life and

Unfortunately, sometimes you have leaders that don't always see the best in students. And you have leaders that even in his case didn't have a whole lot of confidence on where his future was going to lie. And he is in a healthy relationship. He has a great job, like one of those jobs that he was taking me around in his really nice car and all that kind of stuff. And, ⁓ you know, but just he's one of those students that to this day, whenever we're back in the area of visiting, he's like, Hey, let's hang out, let's connect. And just seeing

Neat.

what has kind of transpired in his life and how so many cards were stacked against him. And yet just being in the youth ministry and being one of those students that even though we had to draw those boundary lines, how he overcame a lot of those hurdles and he's doing so great now and raising up leaders himself. It's just kind of amazing to see that and just to have a hand in that. I realize I'm not the only one to draw those things out of him. And I realized more importantly, it was God, but just

being a part of that process and kind of seeing 10 years out what those kind of impacts that we make in those students or peoples or leaders lives, what it has for in the long term.

And you said something really important there is they weren't a perfect leader and you had to maybe pull them away from that, but you didn't stop investing into them. it's sad, but it's interesting that there's a lot of good workers at work who are engineers and things that they do a great job as an engineer, get promoted to a manager and they're a lousy manager because they're a great engineer, but because it's two different skillsets.

Absolutely.

Hahaha

And what happens is they get into the management position and nobody trains them what it now is to be a manager. And so they basically run on empty and they just don't do well. And that's where people above them. Yeah.

I mean, I had that job growing up where ⁓

it was like a year out of high school where I was thrown into a position and it was one of those things where the pay was good, but I was doing it and it was a third shift, putting furniture together job. And my first two months were just so awful because it was very much we're gonna throw you in and see how well you do. And it wasn't until I had people that kinda helped me along the path that

Sure.

I was like, okay, this is how I do it, but man, those first two months were just such a drag because ⁓ there was no teaching there. There was no level of responsibility or whatever. It was kind of the sink or swim mentality.

So seeing that situation there, because I recognize that, how has that changed you to be the person you are today? You've been in that sink or swim mentality. How has that affected the way how you pick leaders and train leaders today?

I think one of the biggest things is I want to make sure that all of my leaders, whether they're adult, whether they're student leaders, that they know what they're buying into. I'm not going to give them a vision without kind of what it requires out of them. I don't want anyone to ever sign up and feel like I was completely unprepared for what happened or what was expected of me. I think it's important to lay out those expectations for whatever leader, whatever job you have.

so that everyone knows going in, this is kind of what's expected. But then on top of that, I think there always needs to be a level of training, help, and growth that happens along the way. If I have a student leader that knows the expectations, but then they kind of struggle a little bit, there will always be that level of let me help come alongside of you and kind of help guide you, coach you in some of those areas. Now, if it becomes a year-long process where I'm just having to carry them through, then maybe there's a different role for you.

Sometimes it's just that one or two needed guidance, correction, coaching that they need to really bring those things out. And if we have someone come in blind, odds are they're gonna be turned off right away. And then if we have someone that we're not willing to help out just a little bit more and show just a tiny bit of grace to, then sometimes you have great leaders, but we never had the opportunity to pull those gifts out of them.

I like that. Don't let them come in blind, know what they expect and be willing to put into them. Because if you don't, yeah, it's very true. So you've been doing this for a while and you probably have gained a lot of wisdom, a lot of knowledge in this. you go back 20 years when you first started this, what do you wish that you knew then that you knew today about leadership?

Man, did a whole, on my podcast thing, I did a whole episode of learn from my mistakes. I think there's a whole list, but I think one of the biggest things for me is I am very, I become very fixated on things. I'm a fixer. ⁓ And when I wanna fix something, when I'm working on something, when I have a project, like that is my focus. And I've had students before that, they,

Hey

was so focused on trying to correct their walk or make sure that they were walking with God and trying to push them along that I think I overstepped God in the process and I thought that I was better than God in the process. I might not have verbalized that, but in the way that I was doing things, I wasn't allowing God to take control. I wasn't handing it over. And I remember there was one student that just kept on, he'd take one step forward, 15 steps back.

And I wore that weight, even though it wasn't my weight, so my burden to carry, like, youth would be done, I'd be getting phone calls of him, and I would just sit up late at night just stressing over what choices he was making, what he was doing. And in this case, it ended up leading to he got drunk, got in a really bad accident. When I got into the hospital, me and my wife did, we were told like he has a 50 % chance of making it through the night. And God, God,

Wow.

protected him, guided him, and he made it through. for me, the struggle was I felt like I failed him. And what I had to learn was even as a pastor, as a leader, wherever God puts you, you have to do what God has called you to do in that case. And then you also have to rely on God for the rest of it. If God has called you to run a business, you run it to the best of your ability. But then you also need to trust that if he's put you there, there's a level that he has to control as well. For being a pastor, I had to learn that.

there was only so much I could do to save these students. I had to do what God has called me to do, preach the messages, love and care for them like he wants me to. But then there also needs to be that level of I'm trusting him to completely guide and lead them. And like I said, with some of those students at the beginning, 10 years down the road, you see what happened. But in the moment, it was the battles that I had to deal with emotionally of putting too much on my plate and wearing a weight that I wasn't meant to carry.

Hmm, very good. I know for, as a dad, as dad, sometimes I ask myself, what are they going to naturally grow out of? And what do I need to train out of? Train them out of, and there's that tension there of not knowing always what is what. I still don't know exactly everything that way, but ⁓ that's probably something that you deal with with the youth leaders is what do I need to...

train them on or what they need, let God just work with them. The natural consequences of your actions are this. Natural consequences are a great teacher and it's hard to let kids fail, but it's better to see them fail in youth groups than to fail in life.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that failure doesn't reflect on you if you've done what God has called you to do. And that's another thing that I had to learn because I hate failing and I would kind of carry that. And that's why sometimes I would try so hard and focus so hard on the students because if they failed, it meant that I was a failure. And that if you've done everything that God has called you to do, even if it doesn't succeed, you've still done what he's called you to do and that is a success in God's eyes. And in the end, that's the biggest eyes that matter.

Gotcha.

Yep, if we wanted to go deeper on that, it's very interesting if you ever read with that lens, read through Hebrews 11, the great faith chapter, they do all these things and then it ends up with all these people who were killed and were persecuted and this and this and this, and they're all called faithful. In the world's eyes, they're like, they didn't make it, but in God's eyes, like they were faithful to do what they're supposed to do, even though they got killed for their faith. It's still good, it's a mindset.

Yeah.

that we have to have, but it's a good mindset. ⁓ Sometimes it's better for us to know what not to do than all the positive things to do. As you look at picking leaders and choosing leaders, is there any common mistakes people make in choosing the leader that ends up not being good? Essentially, what are we not supposed to do? To put the question simply.

Yeah, that's a powerful passage right there. Yeah.

⁓ I think one, ⁓ is, is sometimes we're more attracted to people that are like us. And, ⁓ as a leader, especially when you train other leaders, sometimes you end up replicating yourself in those leaders. And so it's really important to make sure that you don't surround yourself with tons of leaders that are just carbon copies of you. ⁓ I like to make sure that my leaders kind of, especially like in the adult realm, ⁓ I have.

different leaders that are like puzzle pieces. There are certain pieces that fit for the corner, for the edges, for the frame, for the center pieces, and there's all different gifts and abilities that God has equipped them with. And so with that, I can't have a whole team of carbon copies of me because it'll just lead to disaster. It's important to make sure that when you're looking at leaders, you're looking for...

especially if they're people that are gonna be working with you and around you, you want people of all different levels of strength. With our crews, we do a two-person crew, and so that basically means there's two leaders that are working together and collaborating together, and so we look at, okay, this person wants to do it. They're not super outgoing, but with those that they connect with, they can pour into. There's a lot of depth there. And then this one here, there's not the depth, but there's the...

exciting energy, the desire for connection and all that. And so those are two people that we're gonna pair together because one can capture their attention, the other one's gonna pour out into the students. If you have two people that are both the distraction makers, you're just gonna have a group that's distracted the whole time. And so it's really about not just doing carbon copies of the same person, but finding what works and pairing those up with the strengths and the weaknesses of the other.

Sure.

That's really good. Do you actually tell them about that or do just do it?

⁓ We don't, off the bat, we don't tell them about it. We're just like, hey, I think this would be a great pairing for you. And then I always, as a leader, I like to check in. I don't like to be like, hey, you're doing your job, I'll talk to you in six months. ⁓ Every time they meet, we're checking in, how are things going? And privately, when they start sharing about how much, know, one case they were just bragging on this other person, I was like, what is it that you like about this person?

working with you and they started pointing out the different things and kind of led them to where they made that discovery on their own. Like they're actually better in the areas that I'm weaker and then I can help them in the areas that they're weaker. And so I don't like to lay out all the cards, but sometimes it's helping them kind of see on their own, like, this is why we connect really well. And don't get me wrong, sometimes the connection hasn't been there. But when it is, it's great for them to make that discovery on their own of

Interesting.

this is kind of why, because I think that we live in this fast food culture and we want the answers for everything. And we look at Jesus and Jesus asked a lot of questions of his followers. And so it's, for me, I've learned it's good to get them to arrive at the answers on their own. We can help guide them, but if they're arriving at their answers on their own, it's gonna help them in the longterm continuously try to discover the answers.

Yeah, no, that's a good training. I just asked because as a coach, I've studied different personalities and different communication styles. And yeah, if you get everybody that just believes in you, the way you do, it's calm, it's nice, it's fun, but you don't get as much done. And you actually, a lot of times need the opposite. If you're quiet, you need somebody a little bit louder or making decisions. anyway, that's the...

Yes.

It's a good skill for adulthood and for leaders to understand that, why does this guy annoy me? A lot of times it's because they think exactly opposite that you do. And that's many times, I'm not into this whole accepting everybody just to accept everybody, but that's sometimes why is they're just opposite and they bring something very valuable that you need to pay attention to. So, well.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

Josh, thank you so much for your time. Is there one final thought or challenge you'd like to leave with my audience today?

⁓ I think maybe the biggest challenge is just kind of that idea of, you know, talking about some of those problematic students or problematic leaders. It's who has God surrounded you with? And yes, there are red flags around us and we need to be careful with those red flags, but has he put you around someone that you can actually pour into, you can encourage, you can strengthen, and you can help not only in their everyday life, but in their walk with God themself. And sometimes it's those little seeds that we plant.

that can be easily missed and yet those little seeds are the ones that sometimes sprout into the biggest thing. And so just be aware of those that God has put around you because maybe he's put them around you for a reason and a purpose and you're kind of that key to bringing that change within their life.

Okay, very good. Don't ignore the people even though you don't like them. Just they're there, work with them. Very good. ⁓ Josh, thank you so much for your time and encouragement today. And if you guys are looking to go deeper and to learn more about Josh and his work and his podcast and all that, I'll put some links in the show notes for you to ⁓ get in contact with him. And I want you all to remember that your business represents the great God you serve. So build a business worthy of God's name and in a way that honors him. Bye for now.