Co-operation is the super-power of humans. We're not the strongest, fastest or most adaptive species.

Yet we've dominated the ecosystem.

Trust is the glue that enables us to co-operate.

Trust is what makes a relationship safe and secure.

But how do we build it?

How do we lose it?

When should we trust? When shouldn't we?

In this episode we explored the nature of trust.

Welcome to honest talk about heartbreak, dating and relationships, relationships, the podcast helping you navigate your path to happy ever after with your host, Rob McPhillips.

So it's in the way the conversation is all about trust and if you think. About us as a species, we are really we're not the strongest. We're not the fastest. We're not the most adaptable. But the one thing that we have is the ability to communicate and to cooperate. And that cooperation is made possible by trust. So if we think big picture first, I'm just going to get a really big picture to trust within a context and then we'll talk about relationships after trust is really if you think about it.

Trust is really the glue that enables society to exist. And so when we think about where in the society are we most developed, we must develop really economically. And the reason we've been able to develop economically so well is because of money. It gives us a unit of transference so that there's an agreed value to objects that we buy and. Money was initially backed by gold so that we knew that we would get the money, you didn't have to trust whoever you are dealing with, you trust in our example when money is backed by the queen, which is why.

One of the biggest crimes you can make is to deface money is to anything that devalues the trust in money because that is what threatens the economic foundations of our society. So trust is where we have. So there's still not the same kind of seven habits by his son and Rebekah about the speed of trust, and essentially it was about when you have trust, you lower costs and you speed. You speed up the time it takes to do anything. So, for example, they use the example that.

9/11 going through the airport. Minutes to check in after 9/11 in about 90 minutes, and it's entirely due to the fact that we can't trust who's going on planes. And because of that, there's so much more friction. So if you think of. The beginning of this pandemic, the first thing that happened was the supermarket shelves with street clear toilet. No one could get to the rolls and it's because. We don't trust the government. We don't trust our people, and so we we pray that there's going to be none for us.

So we grab us to see that there are nights where because everyone's holding them like, well, we don't know whether we can trust you to finish your sentence without thinking up.

I don't know. I can trust my Internet site. So really, it's about because there's a lack of trust. So finances because banks have grown and can now lend a so that they have much more money outstanding than they actually have. And so when there's an economic crisis and people are afraid that the banks are going to fail and there's a run on the bank that would collapse the whole economy. And so this is why like so are savings and things are guaranteed to a certain extent in banks.

There's also a concept called the tragedy of the Commons. So back in the day, there used to be common common land and the common land was so that anyone without land could bring their sheep to graze on the grass. But again, the problem is that when anyone can do it, everyone is worried that everyone else is going. And so everyone takes as much as they can. And so the Commons is there and basically. And so this is really why a lot of charity work.

It's so hard to to do is like the desire of give to a charity, 60 percent of the money sometimes is taken out and moxey. And so there's that layer of friction between you and doing the act. And if you think about all of our empty buildings, like here in Ipswich, we've got the county council building, which was this big castle. And it's been almost since I've been in Ipswich, which is about twenty two, twenty four years.

So for most of that, for about 20 years has been empty. Never been used, it's just laying there. And if you think of all the homeless people that could be sheltered, they're just down the road from there. There's a huge crate used to be Odeon Cinema, and it's quite big building that's been empty about the same amount time. So if you think all the people that are sleeping on the streets, there's a lot of properties that they could be in.

But the problem is. Trusting that they can stay there without damaging. Property is something that a cost in society at large, and that's really about. Something that economists call game theory. So is the idea of the prisoner's dilemma. So really the idea of the prisoner's dilemma is that two people are taken into arrested and separated. They can't talk to each other. Now, if they cooperate, if. Cooperate, they get a hearing if one betrays the other and cooperates, so if one betray the other says it was him and the other one denies it, the one who denies it gets off, but the one who admits it for years.

And if they both betray each other, then they get two years each. Really, it's about in the short term, it's easier or is more there's more reward to betraying people. The problem is that over time. What happens is if you betray someone, people not. And you get a reputation and I and he was because back in the days when there's 150 people in the village, if you cheated someone everyone knew and it was like they would not.

So there is also a version of the prisoner's dilemma that if you do that prisoner's dilemma, if you do it once, you win by selling out your friend. But if you do it over and over and over and over again, the way that you that works best. Corporate, so this is where evolutionary there's an argument that we've evolved a. Can you hear me? I don't have a mismatch, there was just words coming out, I can we can hear, I can hear you.

You did. I did probably miss two words and that's it. I got the gist of it.

OK, great. Is everyone else.

I mean, the genius, but so, yeah, that was the bit that I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but I can't repeat this little Agnes's thing on every word that in the pillow I thought I was sending them to sleep and she was getting ready to make cookies yet. So this next week.

So. I want to be after these people, OK, so if you do it over time, because it's the best strategy is if someone betrays you, you betray them the next time. And if they. Cooperate, then cooperate and strategy when you do mathematically and there are videos. I was going to show you a video, but I think you're going to tell. But basically, if you cheat people, you come out worse. If you always cooperate, regardless of what the other person does.

You get taken for a mug and basically they get a free ride of you. But the best strategy is to you. So if you don't cooperate and so this is the basis like over thousands of years, this is the basis that has been ingrained into our culture. OK, so.

So what do you do the first time then, when you don't know what they're going to do?

Well, the best strategy seems to be to cooperate. OK, but don't take my word for it if you happen to like if you're. If there's a long prison sentence on the one off occurrence. OK, so. OK, so really so that makes sense so far in future.

Well, you're saying that you do judge them based on their actions, which is what we were saying in the break room, that you don't know them often when they show you they had.

So the last bit, yeah.

We were saying in the break room that you don't know somebody until they show you their hand and that's what you have to see their actions in order for you to trust them. So that lines up with what you're saying. You see what they do and then you respond accordingly. And that trust is is not just guessing.

Yes, yes, it's exactly the same strategy, really, because. You have to trust someone if I go on again now, I was going to say so I think it's a bit more a little bit more involved than just those in it. I think everybody that's so I don't know, you'll find so as in relationships, trust is more nuanced now. So I don't think it really matters whether the relationship is a romantic nature or just a business relationship or a parent child.

I think the mechanics are the same. From my point of view. Mechanisms are exactly the same. The how quickly because I see trust as a continuum. On the one hand, you've got this trust. On the other hand, you've got total trust. And then there is a whole set of flavors in between and how quickly you move up and down the continuum will depend on the relationship and all the different nuances you talk about. But the mechanism for movement is exactly the same.

What that is asking is where do you start from? Where is the starting point? That depends on the person, the trusting person or the start from the total trust end of the scale mistrusting person with the stuff from the other side. What makes that person trusting or not trusting? It could be a number of things that could be natural as well as nurture. That might have been a typically a trusting type person, or they might have come from an environment where it was everyone was trustworthy.

And so therefore they feel that the world is trustworthy or that a positive person. So they start with trust or they come from a place where they have been abused or something, and therefore we have mistrust of everything. So that's their starting point. Yeah. Next thing is quite likely you have to reveal yourself. So in other words, you want to trust that you have to be trustworthy. How can you be trustworthy? That will depend on your continued actions.

If you are continually acting in a trustworthy manner, you say something, you keep to it. You deliver what you say, then you become trustworthy. People start trusting you because you're a person of your word, I should say. So if, on the other hand, you break your word and it could be little things, big things, it will erode it and you start moving up and down that continuum. If you say you're going to be there at 3:00 and you come at compulsory, it will erode a little bit.

If you, on the other hand, say you're going to take somebody to an important meeting and you are late and they miss the meeting, it will probably erode a lot and so on. So it depends in terms of the situation and what has happened. And if you are there, then it builds the trust or they needed help. They were desperate. You got there. You did everything. You are now more trustworthy. So I think the mechanism is the same because you can apply that to parent, child to lovers, boss and employee, a checkout person at the supermarket or dentist or whatever.

The mechanism is the same. You go to the dentist, he messes up your teeth. I don't trust him again. You go to the dentist and he does a really good feeling. Is that a dentist you trusted? You want to go back? If it tells you you don't need this, I need that your trust is at least there's actually no I mean, it's a good feeling. Yes. But so that trust is automatically built up. And the more they tell you and it turns out to be true, you are the fountain of knowledge.

I do trust them. So the mechanism is the same. In other words, what you do versus what you promised. Yeah, I agree. It's about having integrity. If you say something, can you keep your word? Your word is your problem, then you can trust me. I'm just wondering if if it was you said before that trust is about predictability. You said that.

Um, I don't think R.O. said yes in Cairo had said I think you said in another. There's also a few issues. I said new elections. I think that enough is enough for me to meetup that we had the definition of trust is predictability. So sometimes we say, I don't trust this person, but we actually sense I do trust this person. I trust them to do something well. So it's based on their past actions and what you can predict that they'll do in the future.

So in other words, what is good? Is that what you're saying? Sorry. You're saying boring is good? Maybe.

Well, actually, Devon, vodka has for four things that really. So, like, if you always do the same thing, so like if you think about McDonald's when you go to McDonald's, everyone knows what they're going to get and this is why they've become so big. And that's really what a big brand is about. Like we got a test case, you know, pretty much where you going to get you guys McDonald's you go.

It was a bit muffled. There was a consistency. You said consistency. Yes, OK. So this consistency, this competency, because there's two types of trust, there's trust in your intent. So so this is like compassion. So that's the that you're going to have the intent that's that's genuine, that's for someone's best. But then there's the also the competency, because you might trust someone that they their intentions are good, but they might be incompetent and not able to do what you're trusting them to do.

So is consistency because past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior, compassion because that is predictive of someone's intent competency, which is their capability of actually doing whatever it is you're trusting them to do. And then the last one is communication, that if someone can communicate why they can't do something or gives you lots of information, that can build the credibility. So, yeah, I think that the dimensions of trust to pick up a lot are said.

I think neither of us wants to frame it in this question, Niva, you can't like some people. Assume that they have to trust and they'll trust without regard. And these are the people that go on dating sites and they meet someone who claims to be a pilot and then hand over all their life savings because they trust, they just believe because they're in a relationship they must trust and therefore they trust. Totally. So you trust. And Paul, like in the example to submit Burger, I wouldn't trust them with my pen, so they say you can only you can.

OK, so there's trust generally there's trust in society. Like we trust that we can drive on the right and everyone else will follow that. The rules, we trust other people. But the core of trust is really interesting ourselves, because when we trust or is that just a hope, I hope that other people will follow the rules. I hope the other person who is a relationship with me don't hurt me or I hope the person who is serving my food, he doesn't have a bad day and the spit spit in my food or something like that.

So is, I think, more hope than the trust.

OK, so you don't like this thing myself, but.

Yeah, but just that very frame of reference almost implies a sense of doubt. So trust is the absence of doubt in some sense in the OK, let's say you give somebody some money to take to another person. You're not sat there thinking, oh, I hope they take it all. It's just trust. It's implicitly given. It's understood. And yeah. Yeah, it's that is the nature of trust. If you are not saying yes or accepting, then you're in doubt.

And that is not exactly trust. That is naturally.

I hope I, I, I think it's sensible to have some doubt. But you have to say, it's like you have to all of life is uncertain. And because it's uncertain, what we're doing is we're taking bets and so the strategy of life is you bet on what's most probable. So. If it was on hope, we wouldn't I wouldn't drive around, I wouldn't drive on a motorway like, you know, like going in different directions in the hope that someone is going is following the rules and getting in the right direction because we don't.

But equally, I know without a doubt that there is some nutter or whatever, that something happening that it might happen. So when you're driving along. You drive with the assumption that everyone's going to more or less follow the rules because otherwise regular work, but you're looking out and you're aware. Of the risks, so, um, we have to do something like this life, you have to do something we can't be certain of. We can't be certain that whatever we do is going to work.

We can't be like if we plant plants in the ground, we can't be turned and they bloom, but we can bet on it. You when we get into Russia, we can't be certain yet, we're not betting, Rob, you're using evidence, you're using evidence, and you're calculating the probability that X or Y, you're not betting. Betting sounds like throwing because she's betting has betting as odds, doesn't it?

But like a thrill seeking knowledge based on evidence based based on the evidence that you have in front of you. In other words, all of the examples of X and Y, as you said, you assume that everybody is going to drive properly on the road, that you make that assumption based on driving on the road and seeing how people behave. So that's concrete data that you're using. And on that basis, you're calculating the risk, the probability that you will do something that will cause either an accident or cause something adverse to happen.

But so that's not betting. That is using t. No, I like that. Right. I think what you've done is you've brought more dimension to what I said and made it clearer. But when you back like if you if I, if I'm going to bet on whoever is running at Newmarket, there's a track record and so results and so I can look at the racing post or something that you can look at all the things you can look at the the, the ground, how hard it is, how soft is.

And so there's odds. And so when you bet like that. And probability, because you have calculated based on how likely is someone's going to win and they shape the odds like that. So, I mean, you're betting on the educated. It's an educated bet.

It is. That you have actually analyzed and looked at the odds based on that. Yes, that's that's an educated guess rather than just picking something out of the air.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in the same way. Yeah, I think that's how you bet in life. You bet on. So like you said, you kind of judge the context. The person if I add up of how where on that spectrum you're going to trust, because I don't think you should, you have to give someone the chance to hurt you or to to disprove your trust, because otherwise you're never going to know. But you shouldn't be, but only to the level at which you're willing to lose.

And that comes down to your trust in yourself.

Contrast that to the analogy quickly. If driving on the motorway, the point is that you develop enough life skills and capacity to be able to drive on that motorway competently and that that's that's almost a given. If, on the other hand, you are driving and thinking, oh, God, I hope it will God, that is what's called being the driver or having a level of anxiety in the same way as we steer our ship through life, we have to have some level.

And if we don't need serious work, that there is trust or that if we are going into something that requires trust, whether it be some sort of business deal or personal relationship, that if you go into it, well, I will surely that's not the way that we can function and it's not going to be optimal for a relationship.

What you're talking about, confidence levels are. There can be. Say she has no confidence that everything will affect them negatively in a sense, because they're as you saying, they are totally nervous there and I think in confidence on.

So I think that perhaps in dealing with absolutes. Yeah, I understand what Colonel is saying, but are we talking about again, I think trust level is a continuum, not a zero one situation. So the better you go, I don't know if I should be doing this. Is that the I don't trust very close to the mistrust level. So there's a certain level at which you are comfortable and everybody is different, of course, on that continuum.

So if you are at the point where you've gone beyond your limits because you have a certain range within that you trust them, don't trust you're going outside, that you know, you are outside your comfort zone and you feel nervous because you do not trust a situation to be anything because you say a business deal to the relationship. So I don't think it's okay. So I don't trust or I don't trust it's okay. So your previous history, whatever that may be, is now making you nervous.

Certain things you've seen or heard. And in fact, in everything we have passed knowledge, even with relationship. If you've never been in a relationship before, then you're going to perhaps use the relationship of people around you as a guide to tell you. But the relationships are trustworthy or not trustworthy, and that's where you kind of get them from. So I think it's important to kind of remember the day we have background knowledge or assumed knowledge of just about everything or we think we know it.

And the other one is that there is a continuum and not a one zero situation.

Jonathan Karl, we both had a kind of I think Yanase was first.

For me, sounds like this a little bit like a control freak, you know, want to control how doctors will act and we want to know what will be in the future and everything. Let's be honest, that's what's causing the anxiety and all that frustration every time. This should just simply be president flaw and a flaw. Don't try to control everything because you can't. And it's impossible. Not even our thoughts sometimes can be so how we want to control other people to be able to think about how they will behave.

I reckon it's about writing. I said, I reckon it's about reading people, and I think that I agree with what Ariel was saying in a way of that continuum of I think that you've got to figure out where you can trust a person as in what you can trust them with. Some people can be impeccably trustworthy. Some people, friends might think, yeah, I'm not going to give you that because I don't trust you. But, you know, what I mean is in to a to a level.

And I think it depends on on a lot of things, riding on people's confidence when mind set, sound where they're coming from as to how they're going to take things. I was going to say probably difficult enough.

So you don't trust me with your popcorn, for example. Exactly. We'll just respond to what Janice was saying about controlling people. I think that is right. We can't control other people. But the whole point is, trust us, that we don't overinvest in people so that we don't lose a bet for no good reason. So it's about placing your bets where you've had a calculated risk rather than trying to control the outcome. And I think I like what Rob just said about.

What did you just say about you've got to be willing to be her own, take the risk of people possibly hurting you? Well, I think that, again, it comes down to not overinvesting and placing a bet that you're willing to lose. You don't bet your your whole house or life savings on a horse, do you? But you bet that enough that you're willing to lose and maybe you'll win. So I think it's about more over investing.

But surely trust is something that develops over time, so the level of investment should follow in line when you don't take out all of your savings and put it down on a complete strange horse in a race. Likewise, you don't say that this person is the be all and end all of my life and I'm going to give him everything, my entire being. It comes over time and as I always say, it's a two way street. You are also being looked at as if your trustworthiness as well.

So how much do you give to to get back from the other person? Because people do withhold themselves if they feel that they are not receiving a similar response from from from you as well. So it's not just looking at someone and thinking, I'm going to judge you X and Y and Z. There is. Because you can engender trust in somebody as well as the other way around. I think.

Yeah, I think that's why integrity is simple, I think it's really in relationships, not about money, but it's about our attention. It's about our effort, our time, our emotional investment of how much we feel we're going to be hurt and that that's like replaces the money. Veronicas first and Incoll.

I mean, I'm going to just talk about relationships, really, because I know work contracts. You know, it's more or less, you know, what you're getting into because you've got contracts and our society contracts, which are you know, you you read more about the companies and stuff like you. I've been very trustworthy because that's the way I am. And I've been burnt in all ways. And I've just realized that you come here to learn about this.

And so what I'm doing now really is like what I'll be saying and it is imbeds is to because how do you know the next person? You don't know anything. Somebody only shows you what they want to show you, whether it's it's it's authenticity or not. And it really doesn't matter because everyone is unique and they're comfortable about who they are and what they want to expose to another. So let's not well, I don't judge, but now I don't believe in anything.

And it doesn't and I don't say that with with with holy ability. I just say that it's just a matter of nature, of the human kind. You don't know who you're talking to. And people can tell you all sorts of stories and I can be entertained by it. And that can be for that moment, great. But when it comes to going further, I would really go inside and try to put all my Antonen along now, because that's what I've been learning to learn, is to how do I really feel about that story?

Actually, I recognize this little trade in someone else and or maybe I got to be careful with that. And it's not like I don't really get hurt. And I do want to have a relationship because I feel that I want to be on a journey with my beloved. But, you know, it's a big thing now that I can trust. And so, you know, it's like also communicating because communication is really important. Sometimes you can make somebody feel really good about themselves so that they can become trustworthy.

So I would go on to that platform of I set it out and then I'm thinking I'm not feeling too comfortable with that. We communicate. You know, you're making me feel like this. I'm not quite sure, you know, what do you think? And and then it's a give and take and maybe opening up a trusting platform. That's when I would think of doing. But it doesn't bother me if somebody is not trusting or not trustworthy or not.

But, you know, I would still open up to somebody because I can't judge what's someone else's expense to enable them to that level that it's a bet. It's totally a bet. But use your your insight. This is where this work with the covid might have been a benefit for people to really go inside and to really, you know, start feeling well about what is real and and and how to to to to to know what discernment is.

Thank you. Thank you for that. I think discernment is, is the ability to place a better back. And I think that's something that happens over time as we as we get to know someone and as we have go through different experiences, we just like if you are better, you start off just unlocked. And then gradually there are people that make professions out of it because they know how it all works.

But about luck, is there not some sort of I was only talking about a sort of calculated risk. And, you know, that's a thoroughbred horse. It's one night because of its past races. It's the strongest also. So most probably it's that horse and not another one. That's not luck, is it?

No. I mean, the fundamentals of placing a good bet if we're going to talk of life as we're making bets, it's about calculating, isn't it? Like the prisoner's dilemma. Look at what they do and then you respond accordingly as opposed to just doing something random.

Yeah, well, if you look at who is best figure this out is really insurance companies. Their business model is worked on calculating the risk from hundreds well, thousands or millions of cases of. How likely your house is to burn down, how likely you are to be in an accident? How likely like they have some of the best data to to most know what's going to happen to you. And that's just sheer research of this data, this and it's completely impersonal.

I don't know you, but once you enter your details to get a quote, they know enough about you that they know how much the risk is. And that's entirely how their their business runs.

How do we apply that to real life as it relates to people, it is based on their actions, so they collect the data about houses or whatever. We're collecting the data, as in observing this person's actions and the consistency of their behavior. That is our data that we place to build.

Yeah. So this is really, as Bernanke said, is kind of discernment is that ability to gather and more. What some people can do is they go, I recognize that. Right. But then they'll confuse with someone who at that tripit wealth of data and you can't give too much to one point. OK, so people are made up of of a wealth of different data points and you can't give too much emphasis to one point. So because sometimes people overreact because someone else did this, my ex did this.

Therefore you must be like, hey. So it's the foundation of trust is trusting yourself, because what we really got to lose in a relationship, it's. The disappointments, the pain, the hurt, and that really comes from, first of all, how we frame relationships, and so what people often do in a relationship is they like they have this idea that this fear that they're going to be alone, that is not going to work out. Someone comes along and gives them hope.

And so for a lot of people, it is on hope. And they trust where? But like I said right at the beginning, it's you trust the level of which you can afford to like if we take the financial analogy, is so you start a business, it's kind of an analogy that you sensibly you only invest the extent to which you can lose and still stay in the game if you bet everything that's like going to a casino and bet your life, your house, everything on rent 30 to so you.

So it's it's really what do you have to lose. And you what people lose if they lose faith they lose like a sense of disappointment and all of those things. Are created by the framework with which you go to a relationship. By your expectations. And it's by a lack of discernment is you invest your overinvesting. Because of what you hope and and like not having a crisis of being able to hear yourself cos your hand up, I think tundras got a point to make on this.

Jump in. Sandra, I got you got you mentioned of the word just escaped me. But I think we have two broad categories of things that we look at in terms of what we lose in there is the loss of physical things like money and house and those things and stuff. But then there's another category that I think that is what can do the most damage to a person, and that is things like respect. Respect one for one's self respect, sense of sense of self, a sense of all of those things that affect your being, who you are, what what you what you lose, you're being questioned as to who you are.

And I can't even think of some of the examples now, but all of the things that matter to you and make you a whole person when those things come under attack because of trust issues, that can be devastating, even I think more so than actually losing money, things like losing money and Apple, etc.. And so as part of that assessment of somebody else who you want to give trust to, I think it's those things that you are looking for.

Are you the person that you are? Will you be safe with that person? If you open up to that person, how vulnerable can you be with that person that you're not going to lose that part of yourself? And so I think it's it's something that I think people grapple with. Yes, you can trust somebody with X and Y, but if you can trust them with yourself. To actually not make you less than who you want to be, who you actually are at that point, then that to me is somebody that you could say that you trust.

I mean, I grew up my dad was actually labels himself as a professional gambler. And I can tell you occasionally, Man United would let him down. So for me is not always the best predictor, but it can offer some insights. I really enjoyed what Veronique's said because I see this completely different. I'll give you two good examples. The first one was a little Thai street dog called Sanuk, and Sunu would violently bark at every person she came into contact with.

She she was aggressive and also she would just freak out and have anxiety and start yelping in the street. And even in my own home, sometimes she would turn on me over time because I didn't respond in kind is very testing, very tiring. It meant we actually bonded. And one day when I knocked on the door of the owner, she came right up to me and lick my hand without bark and she really shote. The point of that story is it's like runaway teenagers.

Sometimes if you show them face, you believe in the goodness in them. Don't treat them with doubt. You don't treat them with, oh, I know these, you know, wild. And we know he does drugs. We still this and he's done that. But you actually give them the respect and appeal to their better nature. I think you can get better results. It's not going to be easy, but instead of making it like some sort of fucking checklist or, oh, they did that or I'm going to decide, I'm going to put it in a jar or they did that.

If they did that, that means that I'm sorry, but no matter even the most trustworthy person in the world, given the wrong context or enough pressure, they won't produce results. You might think. You know, I know some somebody who was in the police force. And I tell you now, if I was to find a bag full of 20 grand cash, they probably take home, but yet they're entrusted with public safety and all these things.

So what I'm trying to say is that I will look to the Goodings somebody. I will see that I will appeal to that nature and hope that's what comes out. And if they can't find that in them or the softness, there's going to be a point in time. But like people who take on rescue dogs, you just say this is dogs mental. It's just you and everybody is just lashing out. But you hope you give it the chance to to be itself and to be comfortable enough to even if there is a database of past transgressions.

In other words, there's evidence that evidence that you collect to create your the hazards that you're going to use to collect to to calculate your probability.

There's one thing that we have that's different from animals was the best example, and that is the capacity for intellectual honesty, meaning that if somebody knows they're wrong and they're willing to admit it or they're willing to look at their behavior, not just get defensive, oh, I don't care what you do this sort of stuff, if they're willing to actually say this, maybe something that I'm dealing with or I'm working with or then they start to realize and change, so.

I think everyone deserves a chance, even if they are.

But I think. I think you're absolutely right in. I think, like, if you work with. Troubled kids or you work with prisoners or something like that, the only way some of those will change is because someone has the faith in them, someone has trust in them, because often people in those situations have become in those situations because they've never. Seen a world where there was reason to trust they've never seen anyone that they could trust. And sometimes someone having that is transformational.

So there's an example in that book of the speed of trust of when Rodney King was assaulted and there was riots, the riots in L.A. and they smashed. They looted almost everywhere. Everywhere. The one place that remained untouched was McDonald's. I don't know why, but this episode is sounding like a that is sponsored by this podcast is sponsored by McDonald's. But McDonald's remained untouched. And when they asked why, it was because they'd. Supported prior to that, I supported literacy in a lot of sports events.

They have played that, you know, the grounds.

Yeah, yeah. Or they like the burgers, but the reason they gave was because they've been affected by like they done literacy things, they've done sporting events for them. So. I think you trust to the extent that you can lose, and I think it's easy. To trust, so I used to work in a school with the different kids and the only the only thing you can really do with them is like there's no punishment that works. They don't care, they've had it all and they'll actually like they'll do things that are detrimental, like I was a naughty kid, but there's a point where the punishment becomes too much.

But the these kids I saw and they were just it was like masochistic, like they would the point of the punishment they would go to just not to comply became detrimental to them. But the only way you could really get through to a lot of them is, is kindness, like Carl says. Having said that, in that situation, to lose that human sense of respect, reciprocity, there's the human sense of feeling like someone's got one eye view.

And if you can let that go, what if you got to lose in a relationship? I would say that's probably not the best strategy because the odds are against you. And the reason why most people don't is because if you look at relationships, there's so much. Times when people work out, I'll trust them, I'll be the one to trust them. And. They're the people that get hurt. So I think there's two sides to it. First of all, there's discernment, but there's also the capacity.

The more that you build your capacity, your ability to heal from hurt, your ability to not be vulnerable and not feel that you're losing out by opening up someone. So there's a discernment in how much you can afford to lose that comes into it.

Yeah, basically from Simon Sinek once I had it and it's sort of late for this, it's always so important to know why you do. On just what to do and how you do it, why it's the why so important? It's the intention behind, you know, quite often we just do, because that's our best knowledge. That's what we see departing from our past. We don't want to do that. But because you get into stress level in the circumstance level, you only remember for your basic basic things, but you learn in your childhood and you will act eventually like that.

You're pushing away people. You'll try to be close to yourself. And in order to protect yourself, you're pushing away. And you think that other people are not trustable. Actually, what you do is actually just pushing the way down. It's just you close yourself simply.

Okay, so on that note, a quick show of hands of how many people think people generally are trustworthy.

It depends what you what you want in what they're trustworthy, of course, or many feet. If you work at an office and there's a cupboard and it's pens and half the pens. That's normal. But they still your life savings. But they'll take the pens. The most of life savings, if they get the chance, OK, a level of trust. You trust them that they will. I used to work in investments and two things, but I was always asking back my pen and my life that it was like, no, you can it be said if you drop the farm, it won't hit the floor because somebody ought to be taken off the air.

So no books never got back.

Yep.

OK, so there was a study. Have I gone? OK, there was a study where a hundred people were asked if you left alone to flip a coin and you're playing against someone who's next door doing the same. Would you be honest? So the loser gets a long, boring task, the winner gets a thumb short task who? Who would be on edge of the building dusk?

You would enjoy the blowing.

Yes, I think it depends on the mood because, yeah, it's like a rush and I want to leave the situation. I will die. But if I I do have time and enjoying myself, I don't get any others. Why would I bother to not.

OK. All right, quick show of hands, who would be honest? Me, we've got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. So we got about was that free courses that you in place?

Sorry, can you reply? Right. So you and someone else is in a different room. You're flipping a coin, whoever flips the most heads. So you're on your own account in your own school, whoever fits most heads gets this fun task. Whoever loses the least heads gets this long, boring task that I have today. How honest would you be honest in reporting?

I do have another question, you know, yeah, I mean, the boring and fun. So the fun for you. What a fun for me.

The fun one is fun for you. The boring one is boring for you. OK, OK.

You can meditate on a boring task like when you're doing washing up, you can you can think about something else while you're doing it.

James. Um, yeah. And also I'm going to believe because I believe that you would be taking as a meditative state. Right. So we've got seventy five percent saying that they would be honest, which everyone out of one hundred the one hundred people said that they would be honest on a secret video camera, 90 percent of them lied and cheated a little.

But in their intention, they want to be good. But that doesn't mean Stick should be acting like that because they believe they are acting right. But that doesn't mean it's right for the other person as well.

Yeah. Is it about their intentions or is it about how they want to appear? Because when is when there's a visibility, they say one thing, which is that they'll do the good thing. But as soon as there's a secret camera, you get the other side. So it's not even about their intentions. It's about how they want to appear in public.

Yes, exactly. If they're just doing that because they feel they are going to be so they can say, yes, I do that. And after when they are realizing they are going to lose, maybe they change their mind. Then they start denying.

Yeah. And it's also so sorry I didn't say that.

And it's also so often in service. So, like, if a question is really well done, you will have a large scale in it. So when people say, like you do personality test or something, and it's something we can appear really good and really bad, some people will make the answers that make them look better. And so when they put a lie scale in, is able to pick out and it's able to quantify how much like how trustworthy their results are.

And it's also like whenever there is a sex survey, like on people's sexual behavior, whether they know or attitudes, they know that the women's will be underreported. And so that has to be bumped up a bit. So like, for example, is how many sexual partners have you had? They know women will say like minimal, but there will be more. And they may know that men a large lives that I can't remember how many and then it will be less so.

Video is taken by the three three to two divided men, numbers by three, and you need to divide the woman.

Yes, so if you look at like Facebook and Instagram, there's a percentage that you have to discount because it's based on status of how people want to look. So. We know that, like we know. We know that there are times we don't trust ourselves. So if there's a big chocolate cake there. All our rules, let's say I release his apple crumble. We're all here like we were in a physical meeting, there's an apple crumble, there are all guys, I've got this guy and when he comes back, there's none left.

Those are both my apple crumble is so sorry, I said you don't know how, but my apple crumble is OK. All right, now you're on the plane, but there are things that we promise to ourselves that we don't do or that we don't trust ourselves to do. We know. When we're not being completely honest. When we saying we better than we all for appearances or to win something. And so all of that colors our lack of trust in other people.

So. So there's there's a myriad of the fact that we're not like a lack of authenticity means that we don't trust our people because there's a lack of transparency and also knowing how we change. How we we are perceived. Means that we take that that this and we discount that of other people, of how they see Carl.

It's just too much of a sidestep, but I kind of spent a bit of time being very still noticed in my thought patterns, and it's funny how. In a sense, we identify with that noise in our head, the chatter. It sounds like us the way to our thoughts actually come from. And in the end, we start to identify with our thoughts, our beliefs, as if they were us. And I just wanted to try to say, I don't know if it's useful to anybody, but with enough time, if you sit still enough and observe your thoughts.

And so don't get me wrong, I'm not above this. Nobody's above this. You can't really beat the system, but you will start to learn that your thoughts are not who you are. And they're completely fallible, like a house of cards. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because if people primarily operate from their heads, not their hearts or any kind of internal space is completely untrustworthy, you will do whatever it wants. It's like an untamed animal in the sense it will have boundaries and barriers.

It's psychological. But I think it's almost like saying kind of two egos really love each other or to just love themselves too much.

That is really the essence of conflict is. Conflict is really internal. And then we project project the ad with other people, because if you look. Whenever you're making a decision like this or like this to say that that is a good one, then the bad one, and there's this conflict between the two. And so if we're making a decision, we've got pros and cons, and that's really two sides of ourselves and say, yes, really good point, which is which is kind of what I was saying about being present, which is really about having a separation between who we are and our thoughts, and is recognizing that our thoughts come from our history, from other people, from all kinds of other things that aren't really us.

And really getting to the core of it all is letting go. Of all the ideas of who we are. And get into the real essence of who we are. Veronica was next and then is Yanase.

I mean, truth is very relative anyway, and I mean, I watched the film many years ago trading places with Eddie Murphy, and that really epitomizes that. We just change our circumstance and we become a liar. We can't help it, we have to survive one thing and most of lives come from survival, either from inner insecurity or fear of the outer. So there's no choice. That's why I just I don't blame I don't judge, but I can't trust anymore because even I become like this.

I can't admit it because it's true. It's a fact that put in a certain environment or certain circumstance, I'm just going to behave not like I would behave if I was in a safe environment. And Iran's strong people that are looking after me.

So think that's a good point. And it reminds me, I lost my train of thought a bit, but there was something else I want to add is in that where we discount. Others because of ourselves. There's also the fundamental attribution area, which is that we excuse ourselves because of reasons, because like when I was you, I was pushed, you fell, I was pushed. Meaning that I did this because of this reason you did this because you're a bad person.

And so there's some of that that goes into trusting others that often. And this is really the basis of prejudice. And when you look at me, trust. The route is really prejudice, and it's that you are different from me. And. So if you look at prejudice, it's like someone who's not in our tribe and then when it gets into our tribe is someone who's not in our family and then it's someone who's not me. So it's really because life is so interconnected, particularly in relationships, that when we go into a relationship, we lose our sense of identity and our independence, emerge it with someone else.

So symbolically, if you have a joint bank account, what you've done is you've trusted someone with all your finances and all your property and whatever. So you need a high degree of trust. For that, but because someone is different, we understand why we did something. And so we can have compassion for that, but we don't always see or understand why someone else did something, so we don't always have the same level of compassion for them. Yanase.

Yeah, basically, when they start talking about thoughts, it came up something, what they experienced in January and I read something about and it's related to me for that, if you think our thoughts, it comes from the last two months. It's like a big library. Every thing what's happening, what we're thinking about, it's recorded in the last months. In the sea, in the crowd, you could see the big library, doesn't matter what work you think, everybody's describing it differently, but in the end of the day, we all can get access.

We all kind of see that kind of fate depends on our consciousness of our mind level. So if I get stress because of the resonance, because the resonance might be here, but it's changing and that's how it's working. More calm you are you're asking us also gets change. So your behavior is changing. It's actually not the person changing it. It's just the behavior behind which is already sound. But somehow we called it. It's literally everything in the past it's happened, which is repeating the same pattern, because that's a behavior level and more impact.

Is this calmness what you've ever learn about which behavior you wish to choose?

Veronica, your hands. Laparoscope, Sondra's CarPoint.

It's very good for us to show, and I think he was still up from before concentra.

OK, I'd like to go back to the point about lying lying about yourself by showing a different side of yourself. But I have a slightly different perspective on that. I think we are complex beings and I think we shift and change in order to make the best of the context within which we find ourselves. And that's not necessarily line. It's another facet of our being. And it is in response to the. To the stimulation that around us, whatever circumstance we find ourselves in, in other words, which we bring to bear on that particular circumstance a set of tools or a set of facets of ourselves to deal with that.

And so we show a different side of ourselves. But I think that we are we have many, many things in our personalities and our makeup. And we bring we bring out different parts of that, depending on what we're responding to. And I don't think that that's necessarily a lie. What I think is a lie is if you create a persona that is not a part of you and portray that to people as though that is actually you hiding it, hiding the essence of yourself.

Yeah, yeah. When I was talking about, like, you. That's the. That's the. Basis of prejudice is what I really mean, is this like a black box? So when we don't understand why someone did something. Why someone did something and what was the whole context and the reasoning behind it, because there isn't the communication is like this, the black box theory, wherever there's a gap, we have to fill that in with some kind of narrative.

So if we don't, we understand. We understand. Why, we did what we do, but we don't often we we don't communicate with someone and we don't know why they did it, we don't know the whole context. We don't know. I think someone's told the story before of. Steven Steven K.V., the senior that was the seven habits of effective people about the person coming home and the kids were playing up on the train and they say, well, kind of keep your kids in order if you stop paying any attention.

And then he says, oh, sorry, we just come back from the hospital. My wife died of cancer, so I just don't know what to do. And the change when you understand that and someone of behave. Like in a really erratic, eccentric way and you think multigenerational, the the they're just crazy, but you know that they got raped or abused as a child and like that when you when you know that in that context, it makes perfect sense.

But we're often judging people. We don't have that insight, so we don't have that black box. And so that's why communication is so important in developing trust, because that can make the black box transparent. And so really, when you look at as our society is becoming more rich, more equality and more integrated and more cosmopolitan, we're breaking down the barriers that used to be there and. So the more that we can do that with each other, the more that we can trust.

Carl?

Yeah, I hope this follows on I think it was something Sandra said to kind of give me a little bit to sort of say this for me, growing up for a young table manners, British table manners were just simply another world. You had to ask to get down and make sure your knife and fork were together. There was all these customs. And so I carry this module into a relationship, meaning the. What you bring to the table and almost your emotions, your behaviors, all of that is what you bring to it.

And so with this in mind, there was some talk about, well, this is just me or I want to be free, but surely the things that we do when we bring stuff to the table matter the experience of eating together or let's just say the relationship. It matters, so it's I don't know, I hope this followed logically, but it's not a case of changing yourself or anything like that. It's just a case of realizing the interrelationship in that context, certain ways of being work and other ones don't work.

So what you've essentially got is the essence of conflict is eyewitness, eye witness. So there's two different things. And what amounts to is how much was from dogma, from like how much you all without having any real investment or any real anything other than just is passed on. It's tradition. And some people will really hold to that like some people are really believe in tradition. I see no point in tradition. My like what I can see, like if there's a lineage, then there is a reason why the tradition, but just for the sake of tradition.

But some people really value tradition. And so it's about what does it really mean? And it's not this or that, but it's I think you have to break the box, so this is like the box of your thinking and when you break your box, then you open up and then you can redecide because otherwise your doing behavior based on when you were six or or whatever because of someone else's decision. And it may be a story. We had the story of so like this like.

Meets this woman and he invites her Thanksgiving dinner and they have roast beef and he watches and he seems like they have this roast beef and they cut off the end of the end and it's why they waste in there. And he goes the next year. And then if there are any slights and eventually they're hosting it, they got married in their house. That and I'm got on it now is him. He pulled the roast beef is his mommy. And he said, what are you doing?

They go, Well, that's what mom did. Mom's there. And I go, What's this about? With my faith? I'm really your mom did it. My mom, like your grandmother and I was crying. And she goes, Well, when I came over from the old country, I only had a small oven. And so that's why I had today. But people do stuff based on tradition for no other reason than someone else did it.

Someone else did it. But there was a reason why it made sense. Like if you look at all these customs, like religious customs, because I grew up in a Catholic church and none of it seems to make any sense. But when you actually understand six hundred years ago or something, there was a valid reason. And it does make sense. But if, like me, you were given this senseless thing to do. But based on the logic that you were never told, it doesn't make sense, so you have to look at every culture.

Everything that we do culturally is based for a reason. So, like, when you look at what was the first great great civilization was probably the Egyptians, because now it was the fertile lands. So when you look at like the empires of Rome and Greece, there's a reason why they got their power. It wasn't like the Greeks was so intelligent. It wasn't the Romans was so efficient. There was something that gave them an advantage that enabled them to have their empire.

So I think you have to break the box and strip away what isn't true and what makes sense. And I think part of a relationship, a great relationship, is the ability to let go of everything. I think all of us are works of art like Michaelangelo's. What Michaelangelo said was like, I didn't create it. I just didn't like what was in there. And I think all of us have got stuff that we're holding onto that stock in us from being a work of art.

And what he's talking about in the fall and just being president, and that is that's the shortcut, if we could do that, we would all be works of our base of fear that we know that makes us hold onto other stuff, which is really rich. Coming around to this is really a lack of trust in ourselves. And that's the key thing when you got that trust is about trust in El.

OK, so Sonador put it very well in that there's physical stuff like money that we can trust. And then there's the emotional the stuff about us. The stuff about us. Is how much we need from someone else. How much validation, how much attention, how much we feel we need from someone else when we feel self-sufficient, when we let go of. So there's this inherent Stoffels, we're told we don't get enough until we grow up not feeling good enough.

And sometimes we need other people to validate us for us to feel like we're worthy. If we can let go of that, then we don't need the less that we need, the happier we will be. And equally, we feel that we need a big house, the big car and the SAT level of status and close. If we let go, the more we can let go of that, the less we need. The more we can trust, but when we fail, we need something from someone else.

It's like the stakes of the stakes, of the risk of trusting is greater. And so the more that we need from someone else, the more. Risky is the trollops. Does that make sense, you saying that if we're insecure, we've got something to lose, which is our insecurity or of our sense of not being secure?

Yeah, I mean, who was I think it was Yanase really talked about it's about control. And part of being human is if we all look, we have a control strategy. So my point is I need to understand, so I so like when I'm talking about this, there's loads of evidence and loads of data on that because I feel I need to understand stuff in order to control. And some people need to control people. Some people need to be like some people need to be really organized and know that you going to be there at a certain time.

They need to know what's going to happen. And that's about a way of controlling life. And so it's knowing you'll need to control and how you do that. But that level, that's part of it. Does that does that make sense because I forgot where I was going with the.

Yeah, the original question was, you said earlier on that trust isn't about other people, that it's about yourself. It's just I was just wondering what you meant by that. OK, so the more capacity that you have, the stronger you are, the more. Like the stronger and more resilient that you are, the more resources that you have emotional resources, the more resources that you have, the more money that you have to bear. So not money, but as in what we if we are going to use the analogy of betting, if you have a lot of money like Bill Gates to bet and he could have the best minds and he could build the best strategy because he's got a lot of money.

Now, if we have a lot of resources, it's like. Like having a lot more, because what we're betting in trust is our emotional resources are a bit of fear, like there's the risk of the fear of being hurt. There is the fear of loss of face. There is the loss of faith that is ever going to happen. You fear the hurt. Now, if you're able to hear yourself and go, okay, I got her, I can pick myself up and I know I can do it again.

And you can do that really quickly, then it's less risk if you have less detachment to how people see you. And the loss of face then is less risk if you have a strong faith that it might not happen with this person, but it will happen, then there's less risk. And whatever the first one I said back, I remember, but if you these are really about your capacity. And so the more capacity you have. The less risk you you have is like someone starting a business with lots of resources or someone starting a business, but they don't really have the resources to market, they don't really have the resource to to make a single mistake.

So if you if you're able to make more mistakes and still survive, you're able to trust more. Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining it. I understand it. But you have an emotional bank account, has more resilience, and when you can afford to take a bigger risk, a bit more, you can afford to lose because you can replenish your national account and you end up emotionally bankrupt.

Yeah. So there's the loss. And then there's also been better choosing being better banks use dating sites. So, you know, maybe like in a context of a relationship in, you know, that maybe it might not work out with this person. But in a couple of weeks, you'll probably find someone else and so is two sides. It's the loss last not being too much and also knowing that you have other options. I didn't see who was first.

Veronica and Ancol I mean, as as before you did all this explanation, I was individualising because of what something you said. What would happen if in front of me this person is there and I saw it. The question to myself was, what is it that you are most likely to be heard by or that you could not afford to lose? And if there's nothing, then you're totally open to whatever life's so that you. And the more you resist something, the more it persists.

Is like the other gentleman was talking about the vibration. And I think, yes, it's having discernment, but it's also to let go a lot about our fears and our ones. I mean, we have certain needs which if you know that you can buy yourself and fulfill them, then you don't need to put it on someone else. And I think that's what I would have said to certain in front of me. And it really did make me feel better that now I can be confident that, yes, I can open my hearts and the only thing that I couldn't bear is physical violence.

So I would be totally out of your own. But everything else is I would just look and I want to say, OK, and I didn't I don't have to take on anything that does not feel right to me. But at least I'm not afraid to go into something because of of of my my fears or my my resistance or or my beliefs that actually are probably outdated. You know, they go with my first relationship, my first betrayal. I could possibly handle something much more difficult with all the things that these people have brought to me.

And most of it is with my karma anyway. So if I have learned from that, I don't accept this anymore.

And it's like if you're on a knife edge, you're always going to see the worst because the anxiety is more. It means like in instead of like David Hawkins, you're below the line. And so you're not going to bring out the best in the other person anyway. And this is what happens in a lot of relationships, is that because there's so much anxiety in it that people it brings out the worst in each other and so it makes it real?

Yeah, and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Thank you, Carl.

Yeah, I was just to exemplify this, this is a really good attitude as well. I must say it's gangster. But some years ago I did some really gnarly mushrooms and it took about and I had this vision where I was laid out flat and I just had this overwhelming sense of doom and impingement of fear. And it was really, really eating me up. And all of a sudden I just said, fuck it and surrendered. And in that moment, what that taught me was that it's not actually the fear and the problem is your resistance to it.

It is literally the fear of the thing rather than the actual feeling which you can process. And it loses all its energy intensity by allowing rather than pushing it away. Another really simple example of this was when I didn't have a call for a while, I would sit there wanting to go to the shop and the thought of walking down there in the cold was so much worse. Actually, when I go to sit there for about an hour to walk, as cold as freeze is going to be terrible.

It was fine. It was easy, but it was the internal process of it. So, yeah, I just want to add on to it.

So, yeah, yeah. I think it's a very physical violence is fine. You can't like if that happens, you can't stop that. But in terms of emotional, it's really in your head and it's about engineering. So its impact is based on the story that you're telling, is based on the operating system that you're working from and all of that is flexible and changeable. So. I think there's a tendency like people want to look for fairness. People want to.

There's an inherent desire for fairness, like biologically in us and. So we say when when someone misbehaves in a relationship or whatever, but really. It's about the emotion any emotional impact is know is under our control. And when you. When you say something isn't under your control then or isn't your fault, then it's not under your control. Come when you don't have control in your you're a victim. And so. The ability to change your emotions, manage your emotions is what?

Determines how much pain you'll feel. From something goes wrong.

For me, at least in the fuel. We just need to learn how to Catalina's Huttle change that energy for what you actually acquired, because we all having that kind of negative thoughts, negative feelings is to question how you learn. To make it as you wish to be, what you want to be, become what you need to do in order for that, if you want to be happy today, you have to create that atmosphere for yourself inside. If you want to be today, you just need to be so angry yourself and you will live to kind of swelling's.

It's necessary because you just have to have that be in order to amass that animalistic side of yourself to be let it happen. And don't think about Simbel. The dog does when they try to catch the bulls, thinking about how good a land they just thinking about. Catch it, go and do it. I was I was going to add as well as I like that the negative thing is the thing is it's the seed that changes behavior. Once you once you set that seed in the ground, then other defensive micro behaviors come out and it affects the relationship because of the space and the perspective you're coming from.

And I just quantify that by saying, you know, if you've got a niece that you like and a nephew looks a little shiza, how you projet to them, how much you love your show and how you respond to them to different worlds.

Yeah, I think that's this is why relationships are complex, because there's a number of factors like that that are the core of it is like trust is like. Many different factors. That all? Interact. And so it becomes like a complex web that becomes harder to tango and because we're not aware of it. We're not really aware of what's driving us and what's driving other people yet also, Rob. I still feel it can be quite simple, we all humans, we do fuck up, we've got a certain amount of temperance or patience.

But surely the fundamental thing has to be believed or known is that I will not destroy this person. Obviously, we can't know, but. Like what will destroy another person inherently or what will be the thing that tips them or takes into an internal low, but still, surely, if there is any sort of form of love, that's not your intention and you wouldn't want to do that. And even if it does transpire, that really hurts you that they're not trying to destroy you.

So is that the foundation of trust? Is that the very first brick of trust or what?

It's really like I said, that people have different levels of trust. People have different levels of ability. People have different risk levels, people who've been through a lot of pain, who really don't have. So let's say someone who has. Been let down many times in her, they've had bad experiences, they are more likely to say like to spot an early sign, more likely to over respond to it based on what's happened in their past and based on their ability to respond to it.

So. It's really three again, so. Relationships are a game in the sense of we're taking educated bets and no one knows how it's going to turn out. And so in the same way that only on the ground national, we can see the odds. We know they're all calculated. Still, some people go for the thousandth one. And when it's like you said that as a Liverpool fan, I'm glad that many like it head down sometimes. So.

It's dependent on our ability to recover from that risk, our ability like our experiences and sometimes. People are so desperately want something to happen, but their experience tells them not to believe in it. And so there's a bit of personal investment in. Feeling like they let themselves down if they trust, and so so there's lots of things, so we're all in this game, we're taking educated bets and we're just doing the best we can with the strategy that we have.

And we help each other with each other because we were afraid of being hurt. And then tragedy of the Commons is that if you look like I remember reading somewhere, this was years ago. I think if you if you give the money out, all the money in the world, we'd all be millionaires, have a decent quality of life, comfortable quality of life. But I'll risk. Are fair means that here, like here in England, we've got this lush land that's great growing stuff and it's not great for holidays, but it's great for.

Wealth, but the fear of there not being enough and the greed. Of what we wanted. We went and raped and pillage all these other countries and so. Wars, if you look at the destructiveness and the cost of war, which all comes from a lack of trust. And so there's two things. Richard Dawkins talks about the selfish was it the selfish gene that all of us are genetically selfish because we're out for self-interest, because self-interest is survival and we do that and we do that in relationships.

And what that means is that we have each other. And it's really about. The more the more educated, the more evolve we can be in how you conduct yourself in relationships and understand in relationships, the more sense of control we feel we have, the more confidence we have and therefore the more compassionate we can be. But it takes a cost.

But I'm confused by this. Did you just say that self-interest equals self survival? Because I thought we'd learned as a species to actually community cooperation was better for survival.

So I'm OK, right? So if you think of free brains, reptilian brain danger, hunger first, limbic brain status, love, cooperation, all of those things. So. There's a conflict. The conflict is internal. And when we feel threatened, we feel our survival. OK, let's say there's a burning building. All right, you can grab one person. You've got I'm not going to say your nephew, but I'm going to say your niece or your niece or stranger you've never met.

You can save one of their lives. He's safe.

Well, ultimately, your family first is as close to connection.

OK, you're on a desert island. There's. Enough water that one of you can live. Do you take care or do you let the other person? Havert. Sure, no, there's only enough for one to live.

Oh, actually, my worst fear, although the for message in the airline, in the airplane, put the mask over your nose first before you put it onto the whatever you need to be able to survive so that you can tend to the other person, put the mask on your face first. Drink water is the other person is good looking so I can eat this stuff just because he's good looking.

If it's too bad, maybe, you know, when I'm putting over the fire, it's going to lose to my stuff so I won't have enough food to eat a dog.

And it's just a boy or a girl who guess you can say, boy, you might do something else before the last minute if you would have. If you don't.

No. That you are little enough to get on my feet. So I don't think.

Yes, so we are yeah, we collaborate, we cooperate in normal circumstances, but if you look at what happened, McAvey with the toilet rolls, as soon as we feel threatened as our family is threatened, then we we are selfish. And that is not a judgment because you have to look, we are animals first and foremost. We are animals. The society and the problem, the problem of relationships, the problem of society, the problem of work and businesses and everything like that is that we impose social structures.

Over our biology, and so there's an essential conflict between biologically what we do and our need for freedom, our need for safety, all of those needs and the rules and laws and customs that we impose on top of that. So wherever society breaks down is because it opposes something that's biologically a biological instinct, because instinct will always override custom when push comes to shove. So, yes, we've learned that we can't just be savages in normal times, but in times of emergency.

And when you get to like a relationship breakdown or that crisis point, that triggers the fear and we selfish. So it really. It's part of having the resources, is that. Means that there's a longer time before we have survival mode where someone who doesn't have a lot of resources. Straight away in survival mode.

Is it selfish or self-preservation? It is survival of the species, but also it is the protection of your gene pool, because that's the essence of life to pass on your genes, to keep your gene or your line going. So that to me is self-preservation rather than being an active act of selfishness, so to speak.

I'm not sure who's first of Janosz and Bernie.

Is it me? I think he was just something else that came up amongst the conversation is that we come here for food for some very good reasons, and most of it is to learn. So therefore we create our own experiences. And so when something really does epicentres, we need to really internally ask why is this happening and communicate with each other? Because what I always say to my children, if they are having discordance, is with other people, especially discordance is this is a training ground.

We choose this planet to come and really we learn. And unfortunately. So actually, I forgot about this earlier when I was making my little thing, but yeah. So instead of waking up with anyone where there's a business partner or anything is really to look at that, because these are things which will come back to us if we don't really look at it honestly. And this is unfortunate. But it is. It is. That's what I found to be the truth.

So I just I just say because I just remembered.

Yes, I do simply just forget one face in the life, even if deceived, in order to survive. What to do. Make it so actually having a pain in order to grow by using words like pain, but we don't even know if that's actually really physical pain, mental pain, that's actually should be something what show us to not give the game or something to do differently. But we the experience that we created for ourselves that seems inside like.

To go again in the same look and again to do it, so actually when you got the pain, it should be more open, more you open, more you can see that's actually not the pain. That's actually a lesson. What could learn from it, what you could take, that's what make the big bond after Amazon is. But why do you think is that being what you think it's been?

Why do you think you need to endure it and embrace the pain when you are going to see you lose your limbs or what I'm seeing now, you start to feel for you.

You see pain because I don't have a sister.

Exactly. Exactly.

But it's always, always different if he is somebody who is important for you to say something like that, because it will be more and more painful than telling me, because I don't care what you are saying. The reaction to this from my my sweetheart or my family member, because they are more important for me than you, because you are just one of the best who is in this group here.

But you don't understand exactly what we think. It's a program. What we do with ourselves. If that should not be a matter, it doesn't matter, does a stranger, but a family man this it should not be more clues that he bought with somebody you actually more creating pain for yourself. But actually it's that not the pain. You're afraid you will show something for that person. What? We are not like it. So be afraid. We show our personality what we might don't like it, and we think the world will find out.

Are you talking about fear of rejection might be that you're just using aversely we don't even know what this stock.

I don't think so I went to bear the pain just because. Maybe I've learned something about myself or the other person, if it's been why I have wrong. Because if it's really if it's really important that they do not want to hurt me.

So how do you think is the intention to hurt you might be just teaching if, you know, if you are telling me you or any other lovely words is it's not really hurt because but if it's my sister or my brother, it will kill me because they are the most important person in my life. To know they cannot tell me that because they can tell me. I don't think so. You is good breath to using strong words. It's not the not the solution for anything.

Yeah, but again, we created that loop for ourselves. Let it be hurting yourself. It's not the person to be creating the programs that have you seen seeing if somebody close for me. I'm not about to let you see that one, but then somebody I'm not. No, I'm accepted that. And it just doesn't make sense to let it out. You misunderstood me. I didn't say I accept. I said I though there is really, really different things.

So what about your brother or sister in the moment?

My sister has found herself really praying for her, but because I know her, I know it's bus. So they just say, OK, so that goes back to Bethia, she never would say something really, really bad for me.

OK, I just want to say this got derailed into families and levels and different things, but Yunos really dropped some serious note. This is a really good thing to look at. It's the fact that when you've got pain, that is communication. It's a feeling. But as a child, we push away and we grab the things that we like. That's a very primitive form of behavior that gets more sophisticated as we grow up. And there's reasons for it as well.

We don't want to burn. And on the other and we quite like doing the pleasurable things in life, but. When it gets to a point where someone would say it's killing or something like that, then there's something in that the actually I just give my own example, which is. There was a time in my life that I did something called purging, and I literally just sat in this chair, actually, I close my eyes and I didn't think I just.

So everything was bad or what happened to me in my life. And, you know, what felt like 15 minutes would take three or four hours. And I just felt it and embrace the pain and that dissolved it and that allowed me to process and progress. I'm not sitting in a chair for four hours, but I'm trying to stay by not pushing away what we don't like, what we feel, but absorbing, being with it, integrating that will change all sorts of behaviors or patterns.

And ultimately, if I say you need to set up a limit, but you are able to handle that because when you reach your limit, is it enough for me? I don't want to do it anymore. And probably, yes, in the dark room or somewhere you think about what you can do. We embrace the pain that and you can decide do you want this person in your life and in this whether it's the coming. Yeah, these are my siblings.

Of course I want them and I forgive them. But if it's not a family member, why, I need to give them another chance. But I do this because if the next time they hurt me again and again and again and again, that's why I want to do that. I'm not the mother. I do enjoy my life.

But it's exactly the same. What you see again and again, you actually think of the person not the problem is the problem. Somebody say something for you, you get upset and you do that how you react. So your reaction is the issue, not the person, not an issue that is going out of my life. And I'm fine, but it's you will just run away from the problem.

I long because he said no, no, no again. So I think how I see yeah, of course everybody has a different reason or something, but if I have a problem with the person and he she everybody, anybody hurt me and I'm telling that person it wasn't really nice. We need to work on it or we need to talk about it. And then the past, the next thing we do purpose because. He or she already knows it will hurt me.

That person is not mature enough to have in my life, because if I'm telling them it is not to communicate because it's not going anywhere and we are just running the same circle because they think it's not good enough to do something different. And the next time. He she anybody will do the same again if we end up going to learn, and I don't I am not the teacher. And I have fought before, so come on, I need to wait and fight to to make the other person better or find a compromise.

I don't if I don't fight, if I don't feel that they're ready for compromise, I don't need to be there because I don't want to compromise all the time.

I think there's also something else in this, and that is our reaction to stress and this fight, flight freeze, fight, flight freeze is number one. And so what you're talking about this is really you have a flight and I can recognize that that often. In a situation is easier to build bridges and start again, or it seems easier to value rather than deal with the stuff so much easier.

Or is it the past experience? So.

Well, I think there's two things you say about being a masochist and. I don't think it's about being a masochist, but what Janice is saying is that it is, yes, a coping mechanism. And what you are saying is that, like you said, that you don't want the pain, but one side is the pain is triggered. And then you have some control over the pipe because it's what you're making it mean. So I don't I'm thinking of, like, emotionless.

You. Like there's a fear of, like someone trying to hit you or whatever, and instinctively we retreat from it, but actually the safest place where you can deal with it is by being closer and within range because say, for example, if someone's going to hit you, then the more that you back away, the more swing that they have, which is the closer in that you are, the less impact that they can have on you. So I also the pain is a lot of it is psychological.

This is the fear makes the climb was so well, you know, what you're saying is really because you're saying that experience in the plane means that you're always going to experience that plane. What you're saying is if you break through that, you won't have the pain not just for this person, but not with other people, because you'll have Dell. With the instance.

Actually, I think there's another layer to that in that sometimes it depends on who you're dealing with if you are in a situation where the pain that you feel is. It's just you are pain and there is no release for that pain, then that person is not serving any positive purpose. And if the pain that your experience is in is a pain that you can go through with the other person, in other words, you are both going through that pain to get onto the other side.

And that means that that pain actually serves up a positive purpose in the long run. It's like bringing a relationship back together and two people are in pain and working through the pain to get through to the other side. Then that pain, as Yunus is saying, has a positive is that is a positive in that regard. You don't want to ever feel pain. It's not that you are looking for it, but when it occurs, you can use it.

Yeah, yeah. I think that that's a really important nuance. And out in that, there are two parts and this is about being an educated gambler. There's a time to stick and as a time to go out. And really what it amounts to is trust. And I think what you're saying is like you trust your brother, your sister, because you know this. And I think the point that Sandra makes so well is that. You like every relationship, you're going to go through that that process and whether you stick or you run is dependent on your trust in the person and the trust in the ability to get through it.

And every successful relationship. Has to get through the. But equally, like, if we were to say everyone should stay and work through it without that nuance would mean that people would stay in abusive relationships. So it is it's about the judgment of can you can you trust the person? Is it. Like a dynamic that is a settling of the relationship like that, what's that like in teams they storming, forming, storming, forming, forming, storming, Norman performing or something like that?

So so basically, before a team can really perform, they have to have the fight. And before a relationship can really flourish, you have to have the fight.

Does that relate to when you said if you've got the capacity, but what does that mean when you when you say capacity set your emotional in the resources?

Is it kind of your emotional resilience, your ability to cope with that? If you're very stressed, very anxious, like from everything else, you've got less resources in your your going to. Who is going to be too much hassle and whatever its resilience really is the best way I would describe it. But it's having the resources of knowing you can deal with it, having an understanding of the dynamics of the kind around the awareness of you, the ability to heal, all of those things are.

What the term will determine your resources, but it is really about fundamentally, there's the idea, like if someone has integrity, if someone has presence, if someone has. The kindness, all of those things are, if someone has that, then essentially you're going to trust them and has the ability to get free. This someone doesn't have those. You're not going to trust them or it's not sensible to trust them. OK, thank you, everyone, for a lively and interesting discussion.

Yes. And so we've got a year, so I think we'll do a year anniversary and a wrap up of OK, so if you want to think about next week. All of the meet ups. Of all the different perspectives and things that you've learned from and been exposed to, what has most changed? Your view of what has been the nugget that has been most useful for you, so we'll talk about the. Next week, but before we go.

Does anyone have some final thoughts, insights, feelings or anything that strikes them from what's come up tonight?

It's hard to just that trust is not it's a word that we use loosely. And I think this discussion has, in a sense, forced, forced me to look at it from different sides, different angles, and to have an appreciation for it, that it is not something that you I don't trust. And that is a statement that is that encapsulates everything that it is about that person that you're speaking about. Because trust has a lot to do with with issues, contexts, and many times when we say we don't trust, we use it to just it's a broad brush that we just use to slap over everything.

And so a person who has maybe one or two issues that we need to address with them, maybe we we we give them a big X instead of a fighting chance like us, as Karl was saying earlier. And I think that's something that maybe we shouldn't really temper our ability to be so judgmental and always remember that we are also on the other side of somebodies view of viewpoint. They could probably how would feel for us if we are looked at as being dishonest in any respect and never, ever given a chance to redeem ourselves.

So I think, you know, it's. To be a little bit less stringent and to have some leeway in terms of how you look at somebody notwithstanding using the experiences that you've gathered. Yeah, the way to help you to define, you know, what what your limits are.

Yeah, I think that's that's really critical in. We learn that we learn from our experiences, but not overreact because of our experiences. And it's taking what's really true and not maybe the emotional impact of something that happened next.

I was going to say that actually in some of my life's toughest situations, even being in a room with a group full of people when they're passing the salt around and I think I'm going to die to actually surrender, to support your strength. And in that moment of surrender, they actually gave me strength. Now, it sounds so counterintuitive, but. That proved time and time again to actually be tenacity is good, I'm talking about in a surrender to struggling in the pain in your mind.

The other thing is as well, when it comes to trust, you believe to be an optimist or pessimist. And finally, if I wasn't born into distrust and disharmony and horrible, horrible stuff, but I still am optimistic, I will not let anybody else's issues, problems, difficulties dull my world view and the belief in human goodwill. So if you are an optimist, an optimist or a pessimist, you wouldn't come for nothing.

And when you're not feeling right inside yourself, it's good to really go inwards and try to find out what is the reason behind it, because we don't have to put up with bad experiences. We don't have to continue this cycle. If you really look into it, we can decide, no, actually this is happening only for me to stop believing that. And so therefore, by really looking inside and not being flippant about just being in pain, but really look at the pain and then we can really change everything and and and trust on the tourists won't make any difference because we ourselves will also attract whatever we are.

So we will be more pure and we will be much more happy. So that's what I wanted to say.

Thank you.

OK, ok. Well thank you everyone and have a great week and hope to see you next week.

Thanks. Bye bye. Thank you. Bye.