What makes a relationship truly magical?

In this fascinating conversation, Kelle Sparta is joined by therapist, Wiccan practitioner, and Harvard Divinity School student Mary Balkan to explore the intersection of spirituality, personal growth, attraction, intimacy, and conscious relationship.

Together, they examine why traditional love spells can create unintended consequences, how attraction works on an energetic level, and why healthy relationships are built through openness, authenticity, appreciation, and personal responsibility rather than manipulation or control.

The discussion expands beyond romance into a broader understanding of relationship itself—our relationship with ourselves, our partners, our communities, and the world around us. Along the way, they explore empathy, energetic boundaries, soulmate connections, spiritual growth within partnership, and the role of ritual in creating deeper intimacy.

In this episode, you'll discover:

• Why love spells and attempts to control another person's will are spiritually problematic
• The difference between attraction and manipulation
• How energetic magnetism influences relationships
• Why receptivity is essential for intimacy and connection
• The role of appreciation in healthy partnerships
• How empaths experience energetic connections with loved ones
• The benefits and challenges of energetic bonding between partners
• How ritual can strengthen relationships
• Why personal growth can complicate dating and partnership
• What soulmate and twin flame relationships may teach you about transformation

Whether you're single, dating, married, or exploring your own patterns in relationship, this episode offers valuable insights into creating more conscious, authentic, and spiritually aligned connections.

References Mentioned in This Episode

• Mary Balkan, Harvard Divinity School student, therapist, and practicing Wiccan
• Love Potion No. 9
• Lakshmi
• Venus
• Aphrodite
• Oshun
• Native American concept of "Walking in Beauty"
• Relationship Astrology
• Twin Flame Relationships
• Boundaries for Empaths

Resources Mentioned

Kelle Sparta's website:

https://kellesparta.com

Hey now, all. I'm Joey C. Welcome back to another episode of Spirit Sherpa. This is the show that helps and encourages you on your journey to unlock your magic mojo. With me, as always, is the spirit doctor, Kelle Sparta. Hey, Kelle. Hey, Joey. How's it going?

It's going very well. Hey, we have a guest with us today. We do. I'm super excited. Who's here? My friend Mary is here. So Mary is a divinity school student at Harvard and a practicing Wiccan, and Mary and I get together for lunch every other week, hang out, and we chat. She's also a therapist, by the way. Oh.

Uh, she's freaking awesome. And so, so, uh, we, we get together every week and we talk about God knows what, and it's always something different, and, uh, we, we really should have been recording all of our conversations because they're actually pretty good. But, uh, I, I begged her yesterday when we were having lunch.

Is that correct? I am. HDS has a community garden, and every summer someone gets hired to take care of the garden. Oh. So that's what I'm doing this summer is taking care of the garden. So- So on top of all of the other awesomeness that Kelle mentioned, you also have a green thumb.

And this actually, this episode was actually her idea, and I'm pretty excited about it too. So we're gonna, we're gonna have a great time today talking about magical relationships. Magical relationships. This is when you go out on a date with, like, a fairy or something like that, right? No. No. No. What, what- I suppose it could include that.

I guess it could.

I mean, depends on how widely you range, but- But, you know, probably not wise until you've at least heard the episode on fairies. Good point. So, yeah. Yes. 'Cause, you know, that could be dangerous. So what is a magical relationship? So a magical relationship is, is how do you bring magic into your romantic relationships?

So there's a lot of ways that we see on the internet that, that are not so healthy. Okay. You know, the, the love spell, for instance. Okay. Wait, are we talking like a magic love potion that makes people fall in love with someone? Very bad plan. Well, potion number nine. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking here. Yeah.

A little voodoo stuff going on. We're gonna have to stick a little, "I went down and turned around and gave it a wink. I said I'm gonna make it up right here in the sink. Smelled like turpentine and looked like Indian ink. I held my nose, I closed my eyes, I took a drink." Boom, boom, boom, boom. Wow, I really started that, like, way, way too early.

I was trying to go into Love Potion Number Nine, and then I'm gonna sing the whole damn song before I get there. So we're just gonna stop now. So but, uh, yeah, I mean, we're, we're talking actual love potions. How does this apply to magical relationships? How do we incorporate, should we incorporate magic into our relationships?

It sounds dangerous to me. Well, I would back up and say when I talk about magical relationships, I'm not just talking about romantic relationships. Okay. Because in, in my world, relationship is kind of the heart of magic, that really when, when you're doing magic, it's about being in, in conversation with the world.

Mm-hmm. And working toward you and the world creating what you want to happen. Um, and so I think that all, all relation- And, and you're not the only one in the dialogue, right? So, like, I would say that, like, gravity is a relationship, right, between you and the world, and you exert it on each other because you also, minute as you may be, exert gravity on the Earth.

And, and so I think that there, there's a, an element of dialogue in anything that you encounter and interact with, and you have to look at the quality of that relationship and what you want that relationship to be anytime you're engaged with something. And so I would put that spin on it. But when you go back and talk about love spells, I find them highly problematic because well, I think the only time we ever really try to compel another's will, right, against their best interest is when we feel powerless and helpless, and so we're trying to put that on somebody else instead of on ourselves.

And so I find a, a love spell in that sense highly problematic in that if you even go back and look at- Wait, wait, wait. I just gotta stop you. Yep. Because that was fucking profound. Say that again. When we find ourselves wanting to compel the will of another or act against their best interest, it's because we ourselves feel helpless.

It's because we ourselves feel disempowered, and so we're trying to get that out of ourselves and put it on someone else. Yeah, that was worth repeating. Okay. I, I think we can end the episode right there. I mean, that was- That was, that was- No, and if you look, if you look at traditional love spells that are intended to compel, they all have these intensely violent, really ugly components to them, right?

So you're like, you know, like, killing things and piercing things and n- not good. Well, and just in context to what you said right before that, which was the dialogue that you're having with whether the relationship is gravity or, or whatever it is, there's a dialogue. You're not the only one involved.

Right. With a, with a spell that you're compelling someone or something into something that is not its own will- That's exactly the opposite. There's no dialogue. That is a forced action. And you're trying to make it something other than what it is. Right. So you don't really love it. Right. So love spells, don't do them.

Love spells. That's a very simple- Don't do that kind. Well, see, I think that there is a kind of love spell that I think it is okay to do, which is why I think it's really important to talk about this. Okay. Which is to say, how do you make yourself beautiful and magnetic? Yeah. What is it that it doesn't compel, but draws and attracts, and that's a really, really beautiful thing, right?

Well, yeah. And, and that's actually one of the things that I've talked about extensively with my coaching clients and my students over the years, is one of the things that we look at when we try and attract a mate, for example, is we make this long list of everything that they have to be, and then we never consider whether or not the person we have just described would find us attractive.

Mm. Yes. And it's like if you have just described someone who would not find you attractive because you don't have the qualities that you're looking for in them because you're asking them to complete you instead of you completing yourself, then you're going to set yourself up for misery. Because you will draw that person into your life, and then they won't find you attractive, and then you're gonna be unhappy.

So rather than focusing on the other person, you wanna focus on who you can become in order to be attractive to the p- type of person that you would like to spend time with. And there's all sorts of processes to that. One of the things that I talk about with people is the idea of if you want to become magnetic, then you have to become appreciative and open and welcoming.

Mm-hmm. Because no one's going to be magnetized to someone who is defensive and bitchy and, and distant. Yes. Right? And protective. So the act of becoming magnetic is the act of opening. Yes. One of the practices that I've done that has amused me to no end as I walk around Harvard Square- ... is now I have a larger body, and I will walk around Harvard Square not intending to attract anyone.

I'm not intending to get anyone's attention. I'm just walking around and being open and welcoming and loving of everything in my presence. And it's the funniest damn thing, because I will walk down the street and there'll be a couple guys walking by, and their heads will turn and they'll look at me as I walk by, and halfway through the turn as they're appreciating me as they walk by, you can see their brain kick in and say, "Why am I staring at the fat chick?"

And I laugh every time I see it because I know exactly why they're staring at the fat chick because it's not physical reality that makes us attracted to people. It's the energetics that they put off. I mean, you can find things physically aesthetically pleasing, but in actuality, attraction is about the energetic.

And I think that there's the connection between those things because when you surround yourself by things that you do find beautiful and pleasing and harmonious and that smell good and that feel good and that taste good, and you create this aura of pleasure and prosperity and beauty and receptiveness because you're receptive to them, right?

You want to receive them. And I think that's a huge, huge piece of attraction that people don't think about is being receptive. That, that most people, that's, that's a huge part of intimacy, that people want to be received. I think that's interesting. I think, you know, two of the things that I heard from what you both just said there was there's a component of confidence- Mm-hmm

and openness- Mm-hmm ... that sort of draw that, that- Mm-hmm ... attractive... A- a- and again, it's not just attraction- Mm-hmm ... for a, a, you had mentioned it before, m- the love relationship. Mm-hmm. It's not just that. It's about all of the relationships we may have in our lives. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Which is why when you look at goddesses, right?

Mm-hmm. The same goddesses are love goddesses and are prosperity goddesses. So you look at Lakshmi, you look at Venus, you look at Aphrodite, you look at Oshun, you look at all of these beautiful goddesses that, that, that, that beauty and love and wealth and it's all part of finding things beautiful, finding things harmonious and rich and, and, and being receptive to that.

Yeah. I think that's a huge piece. And, you know, it's the same concept of how, uh, now I walk in beauty, which is a Native American tradition of walking in beauty, which is to walk in concert with and in appreciation of and in receiving of everything that is around you. So it's a similar concept. So I think that when you think about relationship, there's sort of the three components of you and the other, and there's the what's happening between you.

Mm-hmm. Because I, I think it's kind of important to sort of recognize that, you know, I ate that wonderful pasta salad that you gave us. Mm-hmm. And that's a relationship. That's me in relationship with the food and in relationship with Kelle. Mm-hmm. Right? That, that there's a whole, a whole set of things happening between us- And I think that's, that's a huge piece of it.

And oftentimes when people are thinking, and this is where we go back to that sort of traditional compulsive love spell, is that there's a very narrow definition of what love is- Mm-hmm ... when, when you do that kind of spell, right? Mm-hmm. You have a really clear idea. I want you to want me so that you can't say no

Right. And, and that's a really, like really thinking about that, like would you really want that? And where's that coming from if that's something that you really want? Because part of- Being in relationship ... is this kind of playful, creative, unexpected things happen that you, you didn't know would happen, that you didn't know to think about or ask for.

In, in any love relationship, I think an, a hugely important component is your desire to see your, the other in whatever that relationship is happy and in a space that they wanna be. A love potion number nine relationship is not one that they wanna be in . Right. Right, right. But if they did- It is not their choice.

Yeah. Right. If they did, they wouldn't need the love potion. Exactly. Right. So at that point, is it- Mm-hmm ... is it even love, or is it, is it the helpless, selfish- Right Right ... aspect? Yeah. Well, and let's talk about it once you're already in relationship. Okay. Because, you know, this is when you, you have the ability to dive deeper, and there are all kinds of different pieces and parts to it.

You know, intimacy is its own magic, uh, because you're sharing each other's selves. You're sharing yourself with another. You're allowing them to see you fully and completely. You're seeing them and accepting them for who they are, and they, and they're accepting you for who you are, assuming that this is truly love and not a conditional manipulative game that some people play in their relationships.

But then there's also, a, a lot of my people, as I've said before, are empaths. Mm-hmm. And I actually just got this question today on my Boundaries for Empaths program, which we gave away in the first episode. You did. So if you haven't listened to the first episode, go back and get it for free, you know?

Mm-hmm. I just got a question on the group, which is, how do I not send my energy out to somebody else when I think about them? Because my people are empaths, and they tend to spread their energy everywhere. Yeah. And when we are in relationship, we tend to blend our energies with our partners. And that creates interesting dynamics, especially if you're in a twin flame relationship.

But even if you're not, you know, my husband and I, we have a overlapping energetic that we choose to lead that way. Um, you know, it's, it is a codependent energetic. I wanna say that right up front. It is codependent to inter- to, to smoosh your energy together with somebody else because you're, you've lost your boundaries.

And we don't do it completely. We don't have a complete meshing. We have an overlap meshing, and that allows us to monitor each other, so we always know how the other person's feeling. We always know what's going on with them and, you know, I like it that way. He likes it that way. Mm-hmm. It's a conscious choice on our part.

Mm-hmm. But the downside is when he's exhausted and he comes up and sits down next to me, I'm exhausted. We had that happen on the porch this morning. So, you know, it, it's, it's not always a good thing, but it is what it is, and so that's a magical connection. It also results in us always needing to go to the bathroom at the same time, and I don't understand that, but it-

happens every time. Our bladders are on the same pattern. Um, it doesn't matter. So bizarreness, you know, you, you get blowback from everything. There's always a good and a bad to every choice that you make with how you connect with your partners. And, you know, a traditional connection would be energy cords running between you.

That's, that's how people who are not empaths do it. And the s- the size of the cord and the number of cords is dependent upon the depth of and strength of the relationship. From an energetic perspective, doing magic together, you have the ability to jointly create your life- Mm-hmm ... and to gr- jointly create an experience.

And there's also sex magic that you can talk about. There's entire books written on sex magic, uh, and, and creating manifestations through orgasm- Mm-hmm ... and the release of energy through orgasm. So there's a variety of different patterns and paths to that. You know, there's some sort of practical things from, from doing couples therapy that come up in, in thinking about it, and when I, like, think about them in magical terms, that in a sense, a lot of things that we recommend in couples therapy are ritual.

To, say, create rituals together, create, you know, sacred spaces together, and think about what you wanna create in them, and what rituals you wanna create that, that create the kind of connection that you want. Because, like, oftentimes, like, a couples, you know, they'll come in and, like, they're really good at doing projects together, but they don't know how to kick back and have fun together.

Right. And so you kinda have to create some structure for that. Like, how can we do this? And, and I think that's just really interesting. It's a, it, it is very much a, a ritual thing, and I- Haven't ever really thought about that when I've been working with couples. So here's another thing I think is really interesting, and it was the first time, you know, when I was just beginning to think about these things.

Because the, the sort of traditional wisdom people will say is like, "Never do a love spell." But this woman came in to the new age store where I was working, and she was like, "I need these ingredients for a love spell." And I was like, "Shit." Right? But then she told me what it was, and I was like, "Where did you get that?

Because I'm gonna teach that to people." She had a, a set of, you know, sympathetic elements to use for this. But essentially it was sit down in your magical space that you've created that has all of these elements of softness and tenderness and beauty and, right, light and, and, and, and have a picture of your beloved there and sit and talk to him and tell him what you're feeling and what you want and how you would like things to be between you and how you see him, and just tell him And when you're done, close your circle.

And it was the most beautiful thing because I thought, like, how often ... And I can tell you, I've done this multiple times, and you say to a couple, "So how's the week been?" And they were, like, living in two different relationships. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, they had no idea because they, they didn't have that conversation with each other.

And then each of them is sitting there very seriously talking to me, and they're not looking at each other. And I just thought how beautiful that you just sit down and tell them. Yeah. I will say that that's one of the rituals that my husband and I have. We do regularly share appreciations. Mm-hmm. And it used to be that we had a structure and a ritual to it.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, we've been together for almost five years now, and so at this point it's more like one of us will say, "Can you share some appreciations with me?" And we've gotten to the point where we're very specific. It's like, "Can you share some appreciations with me about how I am a great provider, or how I am awesome in bed, or how I am a really great cook, or how I take care of and nurture you?"

Or, you know, b- because we'll say, you know, just very, very specific about what you can appreciate me for in this moment about that. And the other person never gives rote answers. Mm-hmm. We, we stop and we think and we, we feel into the moment and we feel into our own gratitude, and we say, "Okay, what am I really grateful for about you right now?"

And that's where we start from. I really encourage people, before you express your anger at your partner for anything, that you start with three appreciations, because it does two things for you. One is it, it takes them out of defensive mode, and two, it proves to you that they're not the enemy because you appreciate them for things too.

And so they do good things for you. Because we can get into this mode of, "You pissed me off, therefore you're the enemy." And when you do that, you come out of relationship and you go into aggression and, you know, one-upsmanship and, "I have to win." And the moment you step into "I have to win," someone else has to lose, and that relationship suffers.

And the other side of it also is, uh, and I got this, uh, interestingly from a friend of mine who's a staunch libertarian. Um, and he, he had some really interesting things to say, but he said, "Never sacrifice for your relationship." And I, I was like, "Really?" And I, I was like, "Tell me more about that." And he said, "No."

He said, "Never sacrifice." That's not to say that you don't go out of your way to do something for someone else, and it's not to say that you don't sometimes choose to do something for them over doing something for yourself. But you should never do something that feels like a sacrifice. Right. Because the moment it feels like a sacrifice, you start g- you start keeping score.

Right. Because you've chosen them over you, rather than saying, "Okay, I'm gonna do something for you," versus doing something for me. There's a difference between choosing the act over choosing the person. That's such an- Right ... interesting qualification there. As soon as you start to do something that feels like a sacrifice- Right

you start to keep score. It's, it's the, you know, the grand entrance of ego- Mm-hmm ... into the, into the relationship and the removal of that love aspect in, in a way. Yeah. Well, and, and if they don't appreciate it, then suddenly your sacrifice was for nothing, right? Well, and even if they do- Ev- ... but you resent giving it- Yeah

not okay. Yeah. And d- Right ... does appreciation even matter at that point? And I think that's- Right ... a really important thing to say, that a- an authentic relationship, like a truly magical relationship, is not comfortable Right? There are times when it gives you comfort. There are times when it's steadying and nurturing and nourishing, but it's not comfortable because the other person doesn't exist for your benefit and you don't exist for theirs, right?

You're accommodating each other. You're, you're allowing yourselves to be changed by each other in order to be together and to create something that you both want, but that requires that both of you change, and that's not comfortable. So there are times, right, when, you know, when your, your partner says something or does something and, and it's like, "Whoa."

And, and that's kind of the, to me, the, the point where you, you either grip your own reality really hard and try to compel them to change. Or you open your hand and say, "Um, that's uncomfortable. Let me sit with that. Let me trust that we're on the same side, and you don't wanna violate me." Mm-hmm, yeah. "And I don't wanna violate you."

Yeah. And, and we're just ... we're in a space where there, there's a gap here. And, and we have to creatively bridge it. Like, we have to grow something that bridges it, 'cause it, it isn't just ... Like, I think there's this kind of ... People will talk about this, like, when they say, "Oh, yes, I wanna meet a soulmate," and what they mean is, "Oh, I want everything to be easy."

And you kinda go, when you meet a soulmate, things are not easy. Yeah. Those are some of the hardest relationships in the world, I think. I, I will say that, that, um, I will say a yes and no to that. Because yes, if you are on a path of personal growth and exploration and you, you meet a soulmate, they're also gonna be a pa- on a path of personal growth and exploration.

And that path can either be in alignment or not. And sometimes, you know, especially in twin flame relationships, um, the, the, the per- person will challenge the crap out of you, right? And, and there can be some heavy duty explosions and things that happen. But when you have gotten through a huge amount of your work and you find a partner who has gotten through a huge amount of their work, it can be easy.

Because I mean, Jeff and I have that- Mm-hmm ... sort of a relationship. And it... Not to say that we don't have disagreements, we do, but we actually have very similar tastes. We have very similar desires. We have very similar ways of being. We have very similar ideas about how things happen. And, and we both admit freely that if we had met six months earlier, we would not have been ready for each other.

So, you know, it's a function of where you are in your process. And I wanna say, when you are on a heavy duty spiritual growth process, I see this happen a lot, a lot of people who are on heavy duty spiritual growth paths are also looking for partners. And I will tell you that that is a very difficult thing to do.

Because when you are on a heavy duty spiritual growth process, you are a different person every day. Mm. And relationships exist at the intersection of the person you are and the person they are And when you're a different person every day, that intersection point shifts every day. And if your partner's on a big spiritual growth path, that's gonna shift it even more.

And, you know, yes, you can come together and find a new way to be, but you have to be conscious enough to be able to do that, and it's very difficult while you're doing your own work to find that intersection point again. Especially for starting a relationship. That, I mean- Exactly ... the, the whole idea of being able to engage in a, a relationship but also be doing that work, whether it's spiritual, personal growth, um, you start to lose into the early stages of any relationship, right?

Mm-hmm. You lose yourself a little bit- Right ... because you're falling into the puppy love stuff and s- things like that. So when you're doing that work, you're so focused on yourself that if you take that focus off of yourself, then you start doing the work for some- someone else or something else. And I've talked to so many people who are going through transitions in their lives, and the first thing they say is, "I wanna have a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a partner in my life to help me through this."

And the first thing I say to them is, "No. Do this for you first, and then get to a stage where you can give more into some kind of a relationship like that." Yeah. So let me- And I absolutely agree with that ... throw two things in here. And, and one of them is... A- and, and I'm just thinking this through as I say it, but in therapy when someone comes in, when- whenever there's transference or countertransference, it's fruitful for both sides.

Mm. Right? And, and so it's, like, you can come in and, and I can be just absolutely triggered by what you're saying to me, which, you know, in a therapy relationship means it's absolutely incumbent on me to get my work done and understand what's going on- Mm-hmm ... that you're triggering me because otherwise I'm gonna be a shit therapist for you.

But there's also this element of me doing my work shows me what's going on for you. And, and I do think that in a relationship where two people are... And that goes into the, the second thing that I was gonna say was in, in astrology when you do relationship astrology, one of the sort of axioms of relationship astrology is to say any connection between personal planets is auspicious, even if it's a really shit, difficult connection, right?

If you've got all kinds of squares and inconjuncts and oppositions, right? It doesn't matter because if they're connected, that's auspicious. It means that there's a connection, right? So you can have two charts that just slide right past each other because nothing connects, right? Or you can have a chart where two things, where planets are very harmoniously aligned, or you can have where they're- aligned in a difficult way.

And so maybe those are just different types of soulmates when I think about it. Yeah. That, that could be as well. Yeah. And here we are again on Spirit Sherpa where we have said how thin the line between magic and personal growth and all of these transformational things that Kelle continues to, to teach us about, how thin that line is between them.

Uh, they, they overlap. They, they co- compliment each other so much. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. All right, folks. Thank you as always for joining us this week. Be sure to join us next time as Kelle adds yet another chapter to your beginner's guide to energy, magic, and the spirit world. I'm Joey C here with Kelle Sparta and Mary Balkan, and you have been listening to Spirit Sherpa.

Spirit Sherpa's the sole property of Kelle Sparta Enterprises, and is distributed under Creative Commons BY-NC-ND 4.0 license. For more information about this licensing, please go to creativecommons.org. Any request for deviations to this licensing should be sent to [email protected].

That's [email protected]. To sign up or to get more information on the programs, offerings, and services referenced in this episode, please go to kellysparta.com. This episode of Spirit Sherpa has been produced by Honu Voice Productions