Episode 17 | The Leaky Bucket of Accountability

In this episode of Strong & Awake, Dane and Mitch challenge the conventional wisdom around accountability. They argue that relying on others to hold us accountable is a way to dodge responsibility and set ourselves up for failure. Instead, they advocate for a practice of self-accountability that starts with creating and holding space for self-reflection— which can be done in community. They outline a process of committing to new behaviors, releasing old habits, and embracing the discomfort that leads to real change. Through personal anecdotes and practical advice, they invite listeners to take ownership of their growth and transformation. Don't just listen—take action and start holding yourself accountable today.

Chapters:

• 00:00 Introduction
• 01:23 The Accountability Partner Myth
• 04:08 Why Isn't it Working?
• 07:11 Creating and Holding Space
• 13:29 Daily Practices for Grounding
• 18:20 True Repentance and Commitment
• 21:04 The CREDO Framework
• 25:04 Accountability in Community
• 32:37 Taking Action

Mentions:

• Jerzy Gregorek: Quoted for the saying "Hard choices, easy life. Easy choices, hard life."
• "The Power of Habit" by Charles Duhigg: Referenced in the context of understanding habits.
• "Atomic Habits" by James Clear: Referenced in the context of understanding habits.
• Accountability: Discussed extensively, particularly the idea that self-accountability is more effective than relying on others to hold you accountable.
• Creating and Holding Space: The practice of creating a mental and emotional space to reflect and account for one's actions.
• Repentance: Described as a model for course correction, involving stopping, turning around, and moving in a new direction.
• Fess Up Fridays: A practice within MWOD where members reflect on their commitments, hold account for where they missed the mark, what they learned, and what they will do differently.
• CREDO Framework: A model for personal change involving Commit, Release, Embrace, Define, and Own stages.
• Ownership and Agency: Emphasized as critical for personal development and accountability.
• ItsProbablyNotForYou.com - Check it out!

Anchor Actions:

Self-Accountability Check-In: Every week, take a moment to reflect on three key points:

1. What goal did you set, and where did you fall short?
2. What did you learn about yourself in the process?
3. What specific action will you take to correct your course and move forward?

Create and Hold Space for Reflection:

• Dedicate a daily practice to create and hold space for yourself. This could involve a cold shower to wake up, a few minutes of breath-holding to center yourself, and journaling to process your thoughts. This routine helps you slow down, reflect on your actions, and prepare for the day with clarity.

Commit to a New Direction:

• When you identify a behavior or habit you want to change, make a clear commitment to a new course of action. Understand that you will face resistance and the urge to revert to old habits. Embrace the discomfort, release your preferences, and consistently practice the new behavior until it becomes a natural part of your routine.

Join Us:

Our Membership Community (MWOD) is where we embrace discomfort as a path to personal development. Remember, it's probably not for you... but if we're wrong about that, or if you want to find out for yourself, visit us at MWOD.io 🦬

Connect With Us:

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Disclaimer:

The information shared on this podcast and any related materials from Men & Women Of Discomfort (MWOD) or Flying S Incorporated are for general informational purposes only. You should not use this information as a basis for making decisions without consulting your own medical and legal professionals. We aim to provide accurate and up-to-date information, but we make no guarantees about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability, or comprehensiveness of the content.

At Men & Women Of Discomfort, we promote agency and encourage you to carefully consider the input we offer. If you find it helpful, we invite you to take advantage of it, but do so with the understanding that you bear the responsibility of due diligence. By using our content, you acknowledge that you are taking opportunities at your own risk. Thank you for understanding.

*Transcript Note: The transcript of our podcast is AI-generated and may contain errors. We aim for accuracy but appreciate your understanding and feedback on any discrepancies.

Copyright 2024 Men & Women Of Discomfort (MWOD.io)

Dane: 00:00

they're trying really hard and it's just not working. And they're like, help and help I get, but when the help looks like, Hey, will you Hold me accountable. You've already set yourself up for failure. It needs to actually start here. I hold me accountable.

Dane: 00:18

Show up and say these three things. One, what was the mark that you said you're going to do? And where did you miss it? Two, what did you learn? Did you discover anything about yourself?

Dane: 00:27

And then three, this is the fun part. What are you going to do different? Where do you want to go? All of these things are a reflection of what do you want?

Dane: 00:35

What do you actually want?

Dane: 00:37

they're In their practice right now, they're in the thing, and they have opportunity right now. To go do something about it.

Dane: 00:45

whatever you do, don't stop at listening. Listening to what we said is insufficient for the change that you're seeking.

Dane: 00:53

Do something.

Dane: 00:55

As humans we prefer the path of least resistance. We crave convenience, the payoff without the price. But when our lives revolve around comfort, it doesn't deliver. Living in perpetual comfort leaves us weak and asleep. This podcast is an invitation to flip that script, to choose the unlikely path, to get the life you really want through voluntary discomfort.

Dane: 01:19

This is Strong & Awake. I'm Dane Sanders.

Mitch: 01:24

Word on the street, Dane, is that you don't believe in accountability partners or accountability. Tell me more. I wanted to come to the source and get the real scoop here.

Dane: 01:33

Yeah, it's a great way to dodge responsibility, to put it on somebody else.

Dane: 01:41

But there's nuance here. There's a lot of nuance here. So, uh, uh, the reason I, I do kind of like interrupting conversations, like people will come up to me and say, Hey, will you hold me accountable to, you know, X, Y, or Z? And my immediate response is absolutely not. Forget it. No way, Jose. And, and they, And I have their attention now, right?

Dane: 02:03

Like that's, that's the purpose. It's not that I don't want to be in relationship with somebody. It's just, I don't want to give a false impression of who's on the hook for the thing that we're talking about. And then we can break it down. Uh, hopefully if, if I can shock the person enough, break it down into component parts, because there's just a lot that's going on for human beings.

Dane: 02:20

All the time. And when it comes to change or transformation, uh, and there's this distinction between those words, but for our purposes, like something that's really material, you want to go in a brand new direction. Um, and you're just frustrated with your current habit set. We spent a lot of time on this podcast talking about the mechanics of, um, you know, with the help of Charles Duhigg and James Clear and others, like getting clear on the habits and building routines and getting into a practice.

Dane: 02:46

But what we're talking about today is just, um, It's a little bit more, focused on who is responsible for what, and then what is that process by which, when, when we're, we know we're going in the wrong direction, because that's usually the motivation, right? When someone says, will you be my accountability partner or whatever, they're just not happy with what's going on.

Dane: 03:03

They're trying really hard and it's just not working. And they're like, help and help I get. Um, but when the help looks like, Hey, will you Hold me accountable. That's when things you've already, you've already set yourself up for failure in my view. Um, it needs to actually start here. I hold me accountable and how I do that, especially in with someone else, it's nuanced, but it's pretty materially different.

Dane: 03:33

And, and, and when you get that kind of order and structure and kind of orientation correct, I would hold me holding me accountable in front of Mitch as a far more effective way. To get what I want, then me asking you to hold me accountable.

Mitch: 03:50

You talked about like the desire might be good. You want transformation.

Mitch: 03:54

You want change. Totally. Looking to accountability as the solution. You're just looking for that accountability to, you know, be personified in some other person versus holding yourself accountable.

Dane: 04:08

If you're holding me accountable, who's on the hook? You are. Will you hold me accountable for my misdirection?

Dane: 04:16

Why would you ever do that? That sounds horrible. I can't get in there and pull the levers and control your environment and get you to set you, set you up to win. And, and somehow I'm going to account for that. Like, no, that's not how it works.

Mitch: 04:30

Why do you think that's the path that we often go down?

Mitch: 04:32

Like, why is that the solution that we often jump to. I just need more accountability. I need more people to hold me accountable. I need some plan or something because it's not like entirely wrong. That still can be resourceful and helpful. Like, why do we jump there?

Dane: 04:49

If it is, if it is, why isn't it working?

Dane: 04:52

That's the question I have. So like, uh, why do I need more and more and more? It's almost like I have a leaky bucket and I'm going to put it another inside another leaky bucket and then put that inside another leaky bucket. And it's like, hopefully it'll, it won't leak at the bottom as well. It's still water finds its way friends.

Dane: 05:08

And, and I, I would rather have a sound bucket, uh, and, and have, well, and I'll start with my metaphor here, but, but this is the, the first thing I'd say. And I do understand. The motivation, like it makes sense to me that people are frustrated that they've not gotten what they want. They they've really tried and it hasn't worked.

Dane: 05:32

And there's a sense of, you know, desperation. It's like, please, I'll be vulnerable. Even if you'll, if you'll just hold me to a higher standard. And again, I, I appreciate the motivation. My interest though, is how people get satisfaction to actually get the thing they're looking for. And to get there, where I have found far more resource is to flip it and to start, um, in a little bit more of a relaxed state.

Dane: 06:01

I'll say this too, especially if I'm doing things that really betray my conscience, uh, and I'm habituated around it, um, there's so much like shame. That can come with that. And people just feel so badly about, gosh, I'm eating too much or I'm engaging and exposing myself to stuff and on the internet or like, whatever the thing is.

Dane: 06:23

Right. And, um, in those efforts to, to stop these kind of reactive responses to things, ironically, the first thing to do is just stop, just stop. Don't ask for help yet. Don't ask, just stop. Like, and if you're going to ask for any help from someone, it would be, would you help me create some space for me to notice what's really going on.

Dane: 06:53

We're not going to solve anything right now. That's going to come in a second, right? We're going to do right now is just create some space. And if you're my friend, would you hold that space where I am on the hot seat and I get to get clear on what's really going on for me? And that's hard because we're revved up, right?

Dane: 07:14

We're like, we're desperate. It's like we're drowning and we're like, and if someone you talk to any kind of lifeguard who knows their stuff when someone is drowning that they don't run out and save them. They wait until they are so tired that they can't flail and pull you under with them. And they come out and then, and methodically, when you're stopped, you're, when you're done flailing, they, they, they, they pull you to shore.

Dane: 07:38

And it's cause they're smart. Like you're, you need to slow the train down for a minute in order to understand what's really going on. And this is what a friend can do so well, right. Is they can help you. Relax into current reality. Let's just get real about it. What's actually going on? And, and I would, I would call that a whole step, like create and hold space for the other to account.

Dane: 08:05

Oh, you want an accountability buddy? I think what you're really asking is would I be willing to listen? Would I be willing to hear you talk through, and maybe even ask some questions to provoke and pull more out of what's going on underneath so that you could be clear eyed about what's current reality.

Dane: 08:24

And with that complete, that's going to include, like, if I'm creating the space and holding the space, or really, if you're even doing it solo, it's, it's much harder to do solo. But if you can, you know, this is why people go to places like therapy and coaching and counseling and, and communities is like, gosh, when they're done, right, that space is kind of, that's what the space is.

Dane: 08:44

That's what it's built for. But then it's still on you to do that vulnerable work to account. So you're not holding me accountable. You're holding space. I'm accounting for me in that space. That's the beginning. And when I account for myself in the space that's being created and held, I've really set the table for change.

Dane: 09:12

I've stopped. I've declared. And, and there's about to be a turn and we can talk about that in a second, but does that make sense?

Mitch: 09:21

Yeah, it really does. And I know you started to go there a little bit talking about how we can even practice like first within ourselves, like holding and creating space for ourselves to reflect, to slow down.

Mitch: 09:34

Um, and of course, if you are doing this in the, in a community with others and practicing it in this way of holding space and holding account, like it can only be benefited by you doing the same work in your, in your own life, whether that's in a journal, whether that's in your thoughts.

Mitch: 09:50

So I do think that's important.

Dane: 09:52

Well, I'll say this, I'll, I'll say this for my own practice, my daily, every 24 hour practice, my daily practice. And I'll even talk about this morning. I woke up, I just, I don't know what I ate for dinner last night, but I, My dreams were amazing and weird and, you know, my dead dog came to my dreams and like all like weird dynamics and it was just all these weird stuff.

Dane: 10:15

And, um, when I woke up and was aware that I was still kind of in a semi dream state while I was still awake, I went, I'm so glad I'm about to get my practice started because I am not trustworthy as a human being right now. Like I am, I'm just whacked out. So what do I do? I get up, get my cold shower, cold shower.

Dane: 10:32

What does it do? It's like a. Baptism like, welcome to today. Here we are. And I'm, I'm, I, I'm slow in the cold shower, slow as smooth, smooth as fast. And before I know it, I'm out of the cold shower wide awake. And that, that semi comatose state that I was in a second ago, that's historic. And now I'm, I'm awake.

Dane: 10:54

So as I'm awake, now I'm ready. And then I hold space. So what do I do? I drink 12 gulps of cold water. I've dried myself off and I, I find myself in a seat and I hold my breath. I go through a process of holding my breath. Why does breath hold? Why is that helpful? Well, it's not just because I'm trying to win the breath holding competition.

Dane: 11:15

I'm not, I don't care. And what I'm doing is I'm slowing my heart down. And even while my body is telling me like, you need a breath, you need a breath. I've done this enough to know like, no, my, I'm fine. I'm fine. And my job is to actually relax further into the thing, slow into the thing. And at the end of the breath hold, when you take your breath back, and then, um, you go through the process, I'm grounded.

Dane: 11:39

I'm ready now. And then where do I go from there? Well, I actually, you know, I'm a follower of Jesus. I, I, I read about him and his kingdom, uh, through in, in, In the Bible and from there, I pray, but I'm not doing it from like a frantic space on my best days. That's I mean, sometimes I am and when I am, I get to account for that and slowly train down, but these are like built in habits that form my practice that happen every single day, no matter where I am so that I can create the and hold space just like I'm describing for me.

Dane: 12:13

on a personal basis and, and can account, I can account to my God. I can account to myself. It's just right there. That's maybe that's sufficient. Um, and then, but I, but I'm also set up so that when I, as I move into life with others throughout the day, and certainly the Men & Women Of Discomfort community is part of that.

Dane: 12:30

I do my check in or I'm doing I'm not doing it like without that space being created and without accounting for myself, I'm showing up and oftentimes I'm, I'm just accounting for like, Hey, let, let me just tell you what just happened. Like this, this just, I didn't see this and now I see this and I have an opportunity today to go in a new direction.

Dane: 12:52

And in, in that with others, I actually get to get to that third bit, which I'm really excited about, which is putting myself on the hook, uh, the good hook, the hook that actually. Orient's me to the life that I think is truly life. So that I think you're right on the money, Mitch. I think starting with your own practice to create that, that's really what a practice is.

Dane: 13:14

It practice creates the space that you're describing and holds the space for yourself. And then in that, You're more likely to be more honest and real about it and clear eyed about what you actually want and willing to do the hard thing to go get it.

Mitch: 13:30

Yeah, I know you set up the next stage and step really well, and I want to spend just one moment dwelling here for a second.

Mitch: 13:39

And that is like, what are the common mistakes, especially coming off of the heels of some episodes that we talked about, feelings and emotions? Like, I think oftentimes people can use and hold this space for thinking through these things processing as an opportunity for that kind of shame to creep in for, uh, they're holding space instead of without judgment, they're holding it with this kind of thought of, Oh, I need to make amends for this.

Mitch: 14:09

Or, you know, in this next stage, it's some kind of punitive action that I need to take to, um, make up for all of these mistakes or ways that I missed the mark. So obviously I, I've seen that in myself as a recovering perfectionist, people pleaser, et cetera, that I can often take that kind of posture when I am holding that space.

Mitch: 14:29

But, but what do you recommend as far as like creating that environment? How do we think about holding that space and that accounting, uh, in a helpful constructive way that doesn't shy away from that honesty and vulnerability, like you talked about, but doesn't. Become unhelpful, shame or judgment, uh, attached to that.

Dane: 14:50

Yeah, that's a great question. What one part of my practice I didn't mention is I write. So I, I pull out my, my handy dandy journal and, uh, I write one half of like one page, like not two, just one. And it's, it's just, it's me having a conversation with myself this morning. It was, it's Wednesday morning and yesterday, guess what?

Dane: 15:10

It's Tuesday morning and I'm just being kind of barfing on the page, like what, what is so for me, what's coming up and let's pretend that what's coming up for me is I feel shame. I feel guilt. I feel I missed the mark. I betrayed myself. I broke a commitment, whatever the thing is, and that's it. Like, well, I can name those things and then I can decide with my words to myself, well, how do I want to relate with those things?

Dane: 15:37

And I think what you're describing that knee jerk sense of, I'm gonna. Go make amends, or go fix the problem, or go whatever. Usually, in my experience, my heart is pretty revved up when I'm like that. And that's a tell. That, that tells me like, Oh, there's, there's still a little more work here to do, in the creating space, the holding space, the slowing down.

Dane: 15:56

And, um, to resist the temptation to just try to fix the thing. There's nothing to fix. If I've broken a commitment to myself historically, it's a sunk cost. I can't fix it. It's nothing. It's done. It's, it's, you know, if I have a hurt or offended somebody else, think of like the experience of when someone has hurt or offended you and they come to you in a hurried way where it's really evident.

Dane: 16:21

It's more about they want to, they want to stop feeling their. Their own tension, and they, and they want me to forgive them so they can experience that. And that's a very different experience than when someone actually comes with contrition, when they have a sense of like, they're, they're, they're, like, they're humble, they relax, like, they're not trying to get me to fix something for them, they're just trying to own it for themselves.

Dane: 16:42

I'm looking for that second option. When I'm, when I'm with others and I, I, I believe me, I get the drive, the hurried sense of like, I just don't want this on my back anymore. And, um, I, it's just not a very successful strategy to run around and try to get other people to take things off my back. It just doesn't work very well in the same way that you being my accountability partner, it just doesn't work very well and it might feel good in the short term, but it's the easy way.

Dane: 17:12

The hard way is to do the things we're describing and. To trust that it's actually much more efficient than you think you're going to get it. You're going to get the thing you want much faster if you create the space, you hold the space, you account, you don't try to fix it. It just is. And if that's what is now, you have something to offer someone as you make the turn and And start moving with a sense of a greater sense of authenticity to who you are to them, and they're more likely to find their satisfaction if you've really hurt or offended them, because they can, they can see it, they can feel it when you're, you're just trying to get off, to get off the, the burden.

Dane: 17:59

Um, and they're also probably more likely or less likely to want to kind of keep you there to kind of prod and poke at you to get you to feel badly. Sure. Sure. So does this translate? Does this make sense? What I'm saying?

Mitch: 18:13

It does, and I think, you know, we do that to ourselves, too. Um, so, yeah, it definitely translates.

Mitch: 18:20

And I think that does set us up for the next kind of step or stage. So we've created and held space. We've accounted for something. Uh, and now we have the commitment or the course correction. This kind of. In this context, you talked about, you know, going and repenting, uh, or asking for forgiveness from someone else that you may have hurt.

Mitch: 18:39

And I think repentance we were talking about before this call is like a really good model for this, like, especially in the kind of Judeo Christian understanding of it, which is like a turning from and moving towards. And I think that's such a helpful kind of image to have in our head as we consider this next stage of committing.

Mitch: 18:56

It's not just committing, it's actually correcting course, changing course and moving in a different direction.

Dane: 19:02

Yeah, it's interesting at MWOD, uh, for those who are participants, they, they know that every Friday we have this thing called Fess Up Fridays. And I've, I've had, um, there's been a number of, um, Christians and Christian leaders who've come through MWOD over the years and every once in a while, especially run communities of Christians or people of faith.

Dane: 19:28

Uh, they're like, I see what you're doing on Fridays. You're creating a confessional booth is what you're doing. And they're, but they're affirming me, right? They're, they're actually saying, or not me, us, like they're affirming. And, but I actually think that is exactly what we've done is, but it's, they're not confessing to us.

Dane: 19:46

That's the irony. It's, we don't hold any power over the individual. We've created and held space. That's what we've done. And every Friday we say, look, you put yourself on the hook for your life. And you noticed because of your practice that created the space that was held, you noticed that you missed the mark and you want to get back in the game quickly.

Dane: 20:11

Great. On Fridays, why don't you show up and say these three things? One, what was the mark that you said you're going to do? And where did you miss it? Great. Two, what did you learn? Did you discover anything about yourself? The revving up, the like whatever imperfect language, just like mine, you're discovering to try to articulate what's going on in your body, in your mind, in your heart, in your soul, as you're navigating all those things.

Dane: 20:37

What did you learn?

Dane: 20:38

And then three, this is the fun part. What are you going to do different? Repentance is you realize you're going in the wrong direction. You stop, you turn around and you go in the opposite direction. So what is that new direction? Where do you want to go? All of these things are a reflection of what do you want?

Dane: 20:56

What do you actually want? And when people get clear about what they want, what they ought to notice, and we spent a lot of time and have done whole episodes of this podcast on these very topics. There's stages of committing to a new way. We call it declarations. You declare, right? But declarations goes through the stages that I'm going to give a nod to right now because, and it deserves, it deserves more attention.

Dane: 21:21

It deserves people taking the time, uh, to, to think. Um, and practice each of the stages I'm going to talk about. And we have whole episodes dedicated to each of these stages. But I want to, I want to suggest that if you're going to commit to a new way, you're going to declare something new. It does start with a commitment.

Dane: 21:41

You're putting yourself on the hook. You're saying, I want this new thing. I've been doing this way. I don't want to, I want to go this way. Great. You've committed. Feels like, gosh, something's off your chest. You're, you feel like you've done something. Right. Cause you confess one way that you don't want to go and you confess another way you do want to go.

Dane: 21:56

So in that commitment to go to the new way, um, that is necessary. It gets you moving, but it doesn't really begin until the second stage, which is when you, you want to go back. You want to go back to the way that you just confessed. You want to do the thing that you said you didn't want to do. And, um, you want to give up on your commitment.

Dane: 22:16

And in those moments, when you realize the hard thing, To choose is to do the thing you said you're going to do, even especially when you don't want to, that's when you release on your preferences. This is the R of Credo. So you commit and you release. You do it anyways. And if you want to be sad about it or angry about it or frustrated about it, maybe find someone who's holding space in your life and say, I'll start the timer and give you 30 seconds to say whatever you need to say, but I don't really care.

Dane: 22:43

It's your life, man. What do you want? You know, so they lament and then the timer's ending. You're like, okay, well, and now do the thing. Cause he said, you're going to do it. Stop making a big deal of it. Just do it. And you do that enough. Eventually you kind of get bored of checking the box and you start realizing like the gold is actually in this thing.

Dane: 23:01

I'm going to actually hug the cactus. I'm going to embrace the thing. And that whole heartedness that kind of comes forward in those moments, that's what opens up a new chamber of possibility. In your life and you start to realize, like, I'm not destined to keep making this same mistake over and over again.

Dane: 23:17

This is not my predetermined future that I, I'm going to coach you. No, I can actually create a life and it starts with this one thing, but then you start expanding your view and you realize I can define this in a whole other areas of my life. Like if I can do it here, I can probably do it there. So we commit, we release, we, we embrace and then we define other spaces.

Dane: 23:41

And we own those with our behavior. And that's credo, C R E D O. Commit, release, embrace, define, own. And understanding those stages, it kind of normalizes the human condition. You begin to understand like, okay, this is, this is great. Let's start at the beginning. Somebody, maybe me, through my practice held space, created and held space.

Dane: 24:02

And maybe I even did it in front of somebody else, but that's what happened. And then from there, we were I learned some things and I declared a new way I wanted to go. Awesome. Good for you. You declared it. You want to go a new direction. And in that, the going in the new direction, that's going to become who you are over time is through a series of stages.

Dane: 24:23

And part of that, a necessary part of it is you're not going to want to do it, but you're going to learn to want to do it over time by doing the thing you don't want to do. Hard choices, easy life, easy choices, hard life. Jerzy Gregorek is right. And we, this is how we pattern everything at Men and Women of Discomfort.

Dane: 24:40

It's not complicated. It's very simple. It's just doing it every single day. That people get tired of. And they think it's Groundhog's Day. And they're like, Oh no, I've done it. I'm good. I'm just going to let that go for a while and no problem. You'll just drift back to old ways when you don't have a sense of discipline to do the hard thing consistently.

Dane: 25:05

Last thing I'll say on this is doing this alone full time is hard work. If you, it's, and it's unnecessary. Uh, you, you absolutely can find like minded people who want to do this with you right alongside you. But. Make no mistake, they are not holding you accountable. That's not what's happening. Uh, all of the component parts that we've described today is the, the architecture of what it means to be a part of men and women of discomfort and why we're, we're open to produce participants joining, why we want new people to come and recognize that, um, it's probably not for you.

Dane: 25:41

Like it's, it's building a life around choosing hard things, voluntary discomfort. I get why people don't choose it. Our new forwarding address is not just mwod.io. It's, ItsProbablyNotForYou.com. I dare you to go check it. Just typing those words out might tease you along, but that's what we do. And that's why we want, that's why I have this podcast, why we want to invite more people to the party.

Mitch: 26:06

You should seriously go check out that URL though. It's probably not for you. And then, you know, just read through the site while you're there. But I think, I think MWOD does this so well, and it's something that we consistently have to reinforce or get to reinforce, not just with those that are facilitating and helping lead the community, but helping reinforce this kind of paradigm shift within ourselves as we do these things.

Mitch: 26:30

Yes, as primary agents acting as part of this community, you know, I think of. Uh, one of our kind of anchors, and I'm sure we'll talk more about this if we haven't already, but choosing your role, like being the guide, not the rescuer or some other role in one's life. And I think that really encapsulates a lot of what we're talking about here.

Mitch: 26:50

Uh, you're not You know, some boss or drill sergeant or what have you, that's, you know, holding someone like you're going to punish them if they don't do this thing. Uh, you're, you're just holding space. You're getting curious. You're asking questions. You're, you're noticing things and getting curious about those things and helping draw those things out of them.

Mitch: 27:11

And I think the more we get to participate in communities and interact with people that do this well, like you do Dane, the more we can start to bring that voice into ourselves and see our own situation, uh, through that lens of a guide and stop rescuing ourselves.

Dane: 27:29

You know what? Some of my favorite, if you don't mind me interrupting, some of my favorite examples of what you're describing, um, I think of Danielle, uh, Um, who is a member of the community has been for a long time, uh, but she left for a season and she was doing it on her own and then has come back to join the community again.

Dane: 27:50

And for as long as it's useful for her, we want her to be here. And when it's not no problem. Um, and. What I'm so struck by is, um, not just people who do it once and are gone forever, but people who'd come in are part of the community, uh, circumstance situations change. They might go away for a while and then they come back and that ebb and flow is so welcome in our, in our community.

Dane: 28:13

And it's understandable. Um, we're not saying that you have to be a part of MWOD for the rest of your life. Although I'm really clear, I will be part of MWOD for the rest of my life, partly because not just because I, you know, I lead the thing, but because. You know, there'll be a day where I don't lead the thing.

Dane: 28:28

Someone else will be leading the thing. And, and I suspect I'll still be here, uh, as long as I have air in my lungs, just because what matters is, is this ownership. And that's what I see Danielle doing. That's what I see so many members in our community doing. Mitch, you've, you've done this incredibly well.

Dane: 28:45

You've been doing this for, for how many rounds in a row now?

Mitch: 28:50

Seven, eight,

Dane: 28:52

I don't know. Coming up to double digits, bro.

Mitch: 28:53

Yeah, I'm working on it, playing catch up.

Dane: 28:57

And that's, that's no small thing. But I don't think anyone's making you do it. I think it's because you've decided you're owning it this way. And if all of a sudden MWOD went away, I suspect, I suspect you'd go create something like it.

Dane: 29:10

Uh, And I think that's true of a lot of folks in our community. And, and also I think of other folks that are in other very significant communities in their lives that this is just a compliment to those other places. Um, and they get to kind of do this in our community in a lightweight way. And then all the benefits that come from it now get to show up in those other places they go back to.

Dane: 29:35

Uh, so that, that again, that part of it is so gratifying, um, to be. Instrumental to you. And we recognize it's the point of life is to not to have a practice. The point of a practice is to give you the life. And that's what we're trying to frame out for people. And, and it's working.

Mitch: 29:53

Absolutely. And I love that.

Mitch: 29:55

We're, we're kind of talking about this and unpacking it, not just as a resource for those that are participating in them already. Um, but, but for everyone, because. You know, I found it such a resource and I've done the accountability part of the thing. I've done these other communities and oftentimes it falls into that thing that you're talking about at the beginning of this, this, they are responsible for keeping me accountable.

Mitch: 30:17

They're responsible for me. And what I love about MWOD and the community that we've built and continue to invest in is, is that there's that, that understanding and that willingness to rethink, uh, that kind of ownership. And it really is about ownership. Uh, cause you know, we're a bunch of, you know, solo players here, but we get to participate in this, this group in this band or whatever metaphor you want to use.

Mitch: 30:44

Uh, And, uh, I so appreciate that because I think, you know, a lot of other things that I've done and participated in fall short because they're operating with a completely different lens and framework altogether. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I want, I want to hold space for you to share any like final thoughts.

Dane: 31:07

Yeah, the main thing I would want to say is we're, as we're done is.

Dane: 31:10

Is in a sense, anyone who spent the time and they're listening to this podcast and they've been with us for this, what are we at the 30 minute mark or whatever, like if you, if you're with us still, you held space. You did that, that just happened, right? You create a space, you held space, you considered, you slowed the train down and maybe you're multitasking, but I have a hunch, even in the midst of the multitasking, there's a sense of dissatisfaction of like, you didn't bring a whole focus to the thing.

Dane: 31:36

If that was you, or if you did bring the whole focus, that's, that's called wholeheartedness. You did that. You. You know how to create the space that we're describing and along the way, as you've listened, I suspect you probably have been in a conversation with yourself, some things where you're missing the mark came to mind and good for you, like, good for you as a listener to, to pay attention to those things.

Dane: 32:00

So then the question becomes, what are you going to do with that? Like, what a great opportunity. Uh, with or without MWOD, like what would it look like for you, with that space created for that recognition of it, for you to account, go to the source, go to the people that it would be resourceful, not just to confess to them if you've hurt or wronged them, but more to just say, like, I'm actually, I see this, and I'm interested in going a new way, and I'm going to share with you if you're open to it consistently how that way goes and, and see what opens up, commit to the new thing as you practice doing the thing you don't want to do, doing the hard thing.

Dane: 32:37

So I, I hope that this episode in particular is one where people can actually recognize they're in the, they're in their practice right now, they're in the thing, and they have opportunity right now. To go do something about it. And of course, man, if, if you'd like support a community around you while that's happening, go do ItsProbablyNotForYou.Com and, and fill out the application takes you five minutes. Just answering the questions, even if you don't sign up, just answering the questions will be highly resourceful for you. That's part of creating the space. And. Um, we'd love to have you, but whatever you do, don't stop at listening. Listening to what we said is insufficient for the change that you're seeking.

Dane: 33:22

Do something. And I hope that today's conversation will help you do that.

Mitch: 33:27

I do too.

Mitch: 33:29

Thank you, Dane.

Dane: 33:30

Thank you, Mitch.

Dane: 33:31

Men & Women Of Discomfort is our membership community and we are open to everyone but keep in mind our tagline is it's probably not for you if we're wrong about that or if you want to find out for yourself you can find us at mwod.io. The information and material that we're sharing both of this podcast or anything connected to men or women of discomfort or flying s incorporated it's all for general information purposes only. You should not rely on this material or information on this podcast as a basis for making any kind of decision.

Dane: 33:55

We do our best to keep everything up to date and correct, and we do a lot of due diligence, but the responsibility is on you to make sure that you're in sync with your own medical professionals that you wouldn't see what we're offering here as somehow a warranty or representation in any kind expressed or implied about this being complete, accurate, reliable, suitable, or comprehensive in any kind of way.

Dane: 34:09

It's critical you own your agency, which is at the heart of everything we do at Men & Women Of Discomfort, we invite you to take the input that we're offering and consider it for yourself. And if it's helpful, please do take advantage of it. But if you do, it's you who is taking the opportunity and we're assuming that you've done your due diligence with it.

Dane: 34:21

Thanks.