Tom Pepperdine interviews writer, Helen Paris, about her writing process. Helen discusses the importance of setting and visuals to her writing, which genre she'd like to write in next and why she feels writing a synopsis is a bit like cheating.

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Hello and welcome to the real writing process.

I'm your host, Tom Pepperdine.

And this week, my guest is author Helen Paris.

Now, Helen is a phenomenal writer.

Her latest book, the invisible women's club is destined

for big screen adaptation.

But at the time of this interview, the film rights was still available.

Now, I know plenty of industry types listen to the show.

So if you're in the market for the next best exotic Marigold

hotel, make some calls.

Honestly, it's so much fun.

And I'd love to say that because I'll be honest, a story about a retired old

lady working on an allotment is not something I would usually seek out.

So why am I raving about it?

Am I being paid.

No!

I just genuinely feel great writing and a great story needs to be championed.

Also, I love stories with really human characters and genuine human emotion.

And Helen excels at writing both.

I really enjoyed this chat.

I really hope you check out her work.

I'll leave links to everything in the show notes, but just know that

if you've ever had a period in your life where you felt a bit lost or

aimless or alone, read Helen's books.

She shows you the joy in unexpected human connections

and ways to find yourself again.

It's heartwarming stuff.

It's lovely.

She's lovely.

This interview was lovely.

And the jingle.

Well, it's fine.

And I'm here with Helen Paris.

Helen, hello.

Hello Tom, it's lovely to be here.

It's lovely to have you here.

And my first question as always, what are we drinking?

So I thought that it is summer and I thought we'd

have some Roses lime cordal.

You know I haven't had this for years.

No, I haven't had this since I was a child, so I think it is some

sort of British summer nostalgia kick that I'm on that made me think

that's what we would sup today.

Yes.

And it's been very wet and windy, but the sun is out today, so it does feel

very fitting to have a refreshing drink.

It definitely feels that sort of uh, summer thing.

So yeah, when I drunk it I was just like, oh gosh, I just imagine

being on a sports day field.

I definitely had that nostalgia hit.

It's interesting how flavors can do that sometimes.

Absolutely.

There's that you had that egg and spoon race

Yes!

In your body as you were downing that Roses lime cordial.

I know, exactly, absolutely what you mean.

So this isn't your writing drink.

What is your writing drink?

So my writing drink, it really does depend on what

time of the day I'm writing.

So when I start working in the morning, it's black coffee.

And I'm sort of, a little bit of a coffee fetishist.

So I have I'm really addicted to Monmouth Brazilian coffee that I have quite strong.

So I have a couple of those.

And then I'll probably move on to um, a Lapsang souchong and

then I'll slightly downgrade the caffeine to an earl grey tea.

And then in the afternoon when I'm dipping, then I will look

for a little bit of sugar.

So that's where the lime cordial's coming in at the moment.

So that will take me through to the rest of the day.

Okay.

No, that's great.

And where I'm speaking to you now, I'm seeing lots of books

on the shelves behind you.

Is this your writing spot in your house?

It is.

I am very lucky to have a study.

Cause I lived in London for years, so obviously I didn't.

But now I am down on the coast and I do have a study right up on the top

floor and have a view of the sea.

And um, I do have a lot of books.

The thing is I get rid of books all the time.

I'm always taking to the charity shop, always.

I feel like every day.

And yet there's never a gap in the bookshelves, so I'm

not quite sure what happened.

I think they just mushroom overnight, but yes, there they are.

Yeah, no, I've definitely got some double stacked shelves.

But I'm found out that if you have over a thousand books,

you technically have a library.

I would say you have over a thousand books.

Oh, and I would say that you, that's a study/library.

Oh, that's great.

That means you can get one of those little librarian stamps and some of those...

You can, yes.

Yeah.

While the day away.

Yes.

And you said you, you tend to write throughout the day.

Do you have a set time that you like to start writing in the mornings?

So my partner gets up really early.

I would say almost in the night.

So she gets up at about, I don't know, four or five, and she's

really full of life and she brings in two big cups of coffee to bed.

She goes off to work, and then I don't get up for a bit.

And then I, sometimes I get up and write, but sometimes I get up and I work out.

Because I find that it takes me a little bit of a longer time.

So we're talking something more humane, seven o'clock.

So I will generally go and work out first and that sort of focuses my mind,

and then I come upstairs and write.

Generally, yeah, for the rest of the day, and try and remind myself to stand up,

do a couple of yoga stretches, and then I clock off at about six or seven at night.

Yeah.

You can't actually see it.

I have one of those lumbar support cushions on my chair.

Oh.

So

that's so excellent.

You see it make all the difference.

Yes.

I have seen some writers when I do these interviews and they have gaming chairs.

It looks like a big racing seat.

But again, it's that support.

And uh, yeah, you're gonna be there all day.

Absolutely.

Now it's essential.

I have splashed out on an ergonomic chair.

It makes all the difference.

It really does.

Yeah.

And when you start writing on an idea, I feel both with Lost Property and

the Invisible Women's Club they're very strong central characters at the start,

but also equally very strong settings.

You have the lost property office in Lost Property, and then in Invisible

Women's Club it's the allotment.

So how does that pairing get set off?

Is it the character and go, where does this character sit?

Or is there a bit of, here's a setting now, who would be there?

It's such a lovely, lovely question because, because you're absolutely right.

They both sort of come in the land at the same time, I think

because performance making has been my career up until this point.

I make theater.

I make experimental theater, and a lot of it is site specific.

So I often start with places.

So I've made performances for California Redwoods and I've made performances

to the um, edge of the ocean.

And I've made performances for vintage buses and that take place in life rafts,

so the audience sit in life rafts.

So sight is a really big pull for me.

And so that has absolutely crossed over into writing fiction.

And in fact, the provenance for Lost Property, which was my first novel, was

from a theater show that I had done.

I had gone and done some research in the Lost Property department in Baker

Street, and I made a piece of work, a piece of performance work about

that, about what's lost, and found and in life in the micro and the macro.

And then I made a film set in the basement of Lost Property,

which are these extraordinary cavernous places filled with lots.

Filled with all these bags with little labels of loss on them.

Bright yellow matt colored labels.

So I made this film and then I still wasn't done with it.

So then years later, part of me was still back there in those basements.

And so that's what I thought, now I have to do something different with

this, so now I'm going to write it.

And what was back there as well when I went back to reclaim myself was

Dot Watson, who was my protagonist.

So it was that sort of setting and then someone who would take up residence in

that setting were there at the same time.

And it, in terms of the character, it was absolutely when I found Dot Watson's

voice, which is first person and very idiosyncratic, quite old fashioned.

Then I knew I had my story.

So it was the voice and the place that really were the really strong trajectory.

And then the same with the Invisible Women's Club.

I knew, I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to make

a piece of work for an allotment.

Cuz I've always been fascinated by allotments.

And I hate to mention it, but before Brexit, I was always interested

in allotments and how they played out a particular kind of, not

even Britishness, but Englishness.

You know, in terms of borders and boundaries and almost a sort of a,

not a turf war, but that sense of private keep out that's says, yes,

this is where MY liberty begins.

Yes.

And your's ends and never the two twain shall meet.

And then urgh Brexit.

And I I can't even talk about that, in terms of who belongs

where and who's in, and who's out.

But allotment stayed with me and I think there was just something about

the fertileness of them, if you excused that sort of expression, that

I just, it still was very curious to me and I still said, no, there's

something that's gonna take place here.

And then I was really interested in writing about invisibility.

Particularly invisibility that I think happens to women at a certain age.

People say 50, but I think I know a lot of women in their forties

who are starting to feel invisible.

So there was something about wanting to use that sight of the allotment where

somebody takes up residence and finds a sense of purpose and is something to

do and plants to nurture, but is also feeling lost and lonely and invisible.

And from that, the story grew.

And what I'm working on at the moment, working on a couple

of things at the moment.

I've wanted to do something in the National Gallery, actually for forever.

I love going there in my mind, and I love going there, literally.

And so now I'm giving myself that, that pleasure.

So yes, place is huge.

And with that allotment, it's really funny because with the Invisible Women's Club,

the protagonist that I've ended up with, she was just a minor character and I just

kept writing the story and I was like, oh, something about this isn't right.

Something about this isn't right.

This sort of, the protagonist that I had was, she was fine, but she

wasn't really doing it for me.

And then like halfway through, this is over 80,000 words down the line,

I'm thinking what I think it actually this minor character that's got this

plot next door with a really large privet hedge, I think it's her.

But I also go to the coalface, so I worked at Lost Property

Yeah?

To do my research there.

And I got an allotment to write this book.

No, I was gonna say, it's just the level of detail is so enriching

and the different characters of it.

It definitely felt there would've been enjoyment in that research.

And it's a great excuse.

It's, I have to get an allotment now, it's for research.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And this was all during lockdown, so it was like one of the places

that we were allowed to go.

Of course.

Yeah.

So I could really happily go off, having watched hours of Monty Don.

Go off with my trug and my aesthetically pleasing tools and to think,

what the hell am I gonna do here?

Because I'm an absolutely terrible gardener.

My partner's a great gardener, so I put on some rustic Norfolk clothes and

pose for a few huge publicity shot.

But, it's a wonderful community, you know, and I absolutely sort of learned by doing.

And all of that informs what the story is.

And that is often my process, because it's been my process

in making work as a performer.

Yeah.

And theater making.

And that part of it has really carried through.

And so now with the National Gallery, is that somewhere where you've

approached them to help with research?

Or are you just going in or just going on their website, or is it just memory?

How are you approaching your research with that?

Yeah, no, that's a great question.

I have to say, if I'd went back and had an alternative career, I would love

to have done a degree in art history because I do find it so compelling.

But I also love watching people looking at art.

And I love the diversity of people that go and look at art, because

the National Gallery is free.

So if you can get up to London, you can just have access to all

of this sort of incredible art.

And I'm interested in the history of the building as well.

So even a part of you thinks, oh, I could just do one of their sort of courses and

maybe get in on that, I've actually just decided to do it just by being a punter.

So yeah, I just go a lot.

I just go whenever I can and that sort of gives me a freedom to have my own sort of

invisibility and I can just go and watch.

Yeah.

And watch the paintings, watch the people watching the paintings.

And what I love to do is watch all those knowledgeable people,

who staff those galleries who know where every single painting is.

That sort of, you know, like black cabby sort of knowledge.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's interesting cuz I've always been, art should resonate with you.

The worst thing that art can do is be ambivalent, but true art is

where it speaks to you as a person.

And art is so subjective that the curator of the museum, shouldn't

be the gatekeeper to art.

They have their opinions and it's more like committee now,

it's not just one person.

But I would just go through and I just would, breeze through

rooms until something stopped me.

And it's like for me, great art to find the artist that resonates with me.

I'd rather just stroll through rooms, not stopping until something stops me,

and then find out who that person is and find out everything about that person.

Because it's like that artist has touched me and resonated with me.

And they won't have all of that artist's work in this one gallery.

But I can then go and research and find out about that person.

And of course, there'll be more than one in the, the big great galleries.

And I'm just walking around going, inspire me.

Go on artists, all you dead people.

So someone inspire me.

No, it's fascinating.

I sometimes I think, God is the way we look at art in some ways a lens to see

how we actually live our lives as well.

Cause you watch people, like your way of doing it, which is almost disobedient.

It's like I won't be made to do everything by rote.

Yeah.

I will wait and wait and see who grabs you.

So that wonderful way of just wanting to be responsive,

is authentically responsive.

But you know, Watching people and how, of course now our way of looking at art,

we don't look at it, we just documented it and then we move on with the promise

that one day we'll go through all our phone pictures and then well of course...

Yeah.

I mean it's it is so fascinating.

And then the people that almost do pilgrimage and come in and

just spend time with one painting.

And watching people watch paintings and just be there

for a prolonged period of time.

It's fascinating.

You know, what are they looking at?

What's it reminding them of?

What are they thinking of?

The sort of conversation that's going on.

Or how people run up to a painting like it's an old friend,.

Like it, they're trying just to breathe it in.

It's wonderful watching people interact with art.

Or not interact with it.

You know, glaze over.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like when you've got that couple and one's really into it and the other

one's clearly been dragged along.

Yeah.

But no, that's great.

And I think people watching and just seeing people outside of yourself.

Yeah.

And how people act in different ways to yourself and trying to understand

that, that empathy of just trying to put yourself in someone else's shoes.

And trying to understand why are they acting in that way and

why is that other person acting in a completely different way.

Yeah.

Is a key part of creativity and artistry.

If you are willing to step outside your own prejudices and go, oh, okay

they're having a negative response to something I have positive or vice versa.

Why is that?

And just gaining that understanding and what people bring to it.

And how it's all valid.

It's all valid.

And I think that's a key thing when you are a writer, fundamentally,

it's discussing and taking apart the human condition.

Whether it's, a certain element like loneliness or just feeling lost.

And I think, with both your book, there is that element of someone losing their

thread of how they define themselves.

Yeah.

And then having to reevaluate and then find a new version of themselves.

I'm, I mean, I am very interested in that, I am interested in that

moment in people's lives where they feel a little lost in their own life.

Yeah.

And what is it that makes them re-see or see in you themselves?

And I think, yeah that's definitely an interest to me.

Yeah.

And in those moments, we do have to redefine ourselves.

But in the National Gallery work that I'm doing, the protagonist

has been made redundant.

In the middle of her life, in the middle of her career.

And I think there's that moment of without my job, what is my identity?

Yeah.

And that sort of real shift and how are you perceived now as well.

So that real absolute shift in perspective.

Yeah, internally and externally.

Yeah, very interested in those moments.

Yeah.

And it's, it's great to have that, cause I feel so many people have that a

and as we've said, like throughout their lives and having the shared experience.

Cuz it's, it can be so isolating because it's such an internal thing.

Because externally, your friends still see you as same person.

But your sense of self is shifting.

Absolutely.

And so it's hard to articulate to other people, but when you

read that in a story you go, oh, it doesn't just happen to me.

Yes.

And here's a character going on a similar path and a similar journey.

Yeah.

And I feel that's one of the great things of art.

Yeah.

Is showing these very personal, very isolating things as a shared

experience in the human condition.

Absolutely.

Those moments of recognition, I think that I know as a reader those are the

moments in books, that I feel that real sense of kinship or that real

sense of belonging or that real sense of you feel understood, I think.

Yes.

And one of the reasons I want to write or I want to make

performance work, I want that kind of connection with an audience.

I want to have that sort of, yeah, that sense of contact and communication

and shared base of shared experience.

Yeah.

And that's great.

Cause it's such an important element of life that I don't think

is, not that it's taboo, but it's just not so strongly discussed.

Yeah.

And to have that as your brand as a writer two books in, is great.

Because I feel that we know people going through these identity

crises in part their lives.

And it's just, oh, I dunno what to say or do, but we go, I can give them

a Helen Paris book that might help.

And I think that's great.

And I think also as you are dealing with different protagonists

in different circumstances, at different point of their lives.

And understanding that process, it's interesting as

an evolution of your writing.

Because you are learning more about that process and the strength of

the telling of that element of the human condition just gets refined.

So it's, it is an exciting thing as a reader to see you improve

and master that concept over time.

So that, whatever book comes out next, it's gonna be an exciting

progression on that theme.

So that's really cool.

Going on a bit of a tangent now.

I love a tangent.

Good.

Okay.

Cuz I just can't think of a cohesive way to just narratively drift it.

So I was like, just gonna turn a corner.

So the sense of space is a really strong draw and the research of actually,

being in the space is really strong draw, but what's a challenge for

you in the opening planning stages?

Where is it just an uphill struggle?

Is it, fleshing out the character or getting a coherent narrative

that justifies that space?

Research and being in the space is fun, but what's the hard bit?

Yeah.

For me, I think a lot of writers talk, don't they?

About being a pantser or a plotter.

Yes.

And I'm so totally pants and I'm really happy with that.

Like I did this actually completely wonderful Faber novel writing course.

And I really did it because partly I wanted to let myself

be a student because I've been a teacher for most of my life as well.

So it's really delightful to be a student.

And also, I wasn't a writer, so I wanted to learn the craft of writing.

But I also was really looking for community.

And so in a writing class, you instantly meet all these people who

have completely different processes to you, which is fascinating.

But then people would be talking, about, it was like a different language.

It was like beat charts and sticky notes and plotting graphs

and character Venn diagrams.

And I had this sort of cold sweat that I got in a PCSE meds class.

Yeah, just thinking, no, this isn't, this is me.

I don't do any of that.

I've got my setting, I've got my allotment, I've got my national gallery.

I've got a sense of my protagonist and her, the sort of the moment that she's in.

That is this moment of crisis or moment of shift and change.

And then I generally know how it's going to finish.

And I've pretty much got, like the last page.

And then I've absolutely no idea what's going to happen.

And I find that quite revitalizing.

That's what makes me want to write the book.

And I know a lot of writers talk about that,.

And I know that, I remember the first time I heard about people writing

synopsis before they'd written the book, I was quite affronted.

I was like, cheating.

How can you tell the story before you've written the story?

But of course now, a couple of books in, I can see the value of doing that.

Because to go focus back on your question, which is about what do I find

difficult, so plotting and structure.

Especially if you are not a plotter, if you just come into

it in a more organic writing way.

There can be moments when having a sense of structure, written down or marked out

or Venn diagram can be really helpful.

And my agent, in fact very charmingly suggested that for the next novel

I might like to write a synopsis.

Because in with the Invisible Women's Club, I had written probably

two different iterations of it before I got to the third one.

Because I was always, this isn't quite it, this isn't quite it.

But unfortunately I had to write 50 to 60 thousands of words before

I realized that wasn't quite it.

Only if I could have realized that over the first couple of hundred.

So that, that is it.

That's what I struggle with.

And I am trying to find ways to sort of ameliorate that.

And also I'm still going to be a pantser, because I like the organic structure.

I like the not knowing.

I like the unraveling and the surprising and the curiosity, because that is what

keeps my heart beating with the book.

And there is something about having the whole synopsis written out

that makes you think, I don't know that I need to write that now.

So I'm trying to have a sort of, a little bit of a happy

sort of medium between the two.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's where I am.

I think that thing about structure and plot.

I'm, I'm gonna give you some new terminology that you

can try out that might help.

Okay.

Because yeah, there's the planners and the seat of your pants, the pantsers.

And that was something that I'd heard about before I started this podcast.

And I know you've started listening to the interview with Jen Williams.

Wonderful writer, all listeners.

But she tells me about gardeners and I think it was J L Worrad who told me

about architects and gardeners and-

Composting!

Composting.

Composting, yeah.

That's it.

Yes.

You've gotta put all the shit out and then see what grows.

Yeah.

And I think that's a wonderful positive.

Cause I think with planners and pantsers, it sounds like

organized people and chaos demons.

Yes.

And it's just it's positive in one way.

Whereas with architects and gardeners, architects, if you find a fundamental

flaw, as part of your process, You've either got a bodge job it to fit it,

or the whole thing comes tumbling down and you've got a start again.

So architects in that case, it's just there's a bit more

stress with the planning.

Yeah.

And gardeners, it's like, well, you just put it all out and it's more

of an organic process and so I think if you are a pantser or have identified

as a pants, call yourself a gardener.

You can go back to your agent and go, don't worry, I'm not a

pantser anymore, I'm a gardener.

I'm a guarder.

No, I'm a gardener with architectural aspirations.

Yes.

Yeah.

There may be a trellis in the future, but not, now.

Oh, there's always a trellis.

Yeah.

I think as well as the national gallery one.

I've got a few horses in the race at the moment, which is just fun.

And there's different genres.

So I've got three, but there's two that I'm leading with.

But one I've decided I'm going to percolate and that's exactly how I see it.

It started as a short story, but there's something about it that I'm really

interested to develop into a bigger tale.

But I'm thinking that also sometimes things work in a short story

because they are only 600 words.

So I thought, I'm just going to let that percolate.

And that just, it gives me a little kind of caffeinated buzz

as well when I think about it.

So I quite into calculating.

Yes, no, absolutely.

And everything takes its yeah, allotted time and you can't rush certain things.

Yeah.

You did just say there a few different genres and I did

want to ask you about genres.

Because I feel that when you were promoting Lost Property, your debut,

it was "book club book" was the sort of described genre, which interesting in

its of itself, but just how you approach genre and what sort of genres are you

interested in writing in the future?

Yes, that's a lovely question because I think I was

quite ignorant about genres.

I always gravitated towards books that I just loved to read.

So I always knew I'd want to read something that Rachel Joyce had written.

I always knew I wanted to read something that Kate Atkinson had written,

or that Anne Tyler had written.

I didn't think about them as genre.

I just thought, these are brilliant writers who create

worlds that I want to be part of.

So I just thought, I want to write a story that's set in the Lost

Property department in Baker Street.

And it's about loss and in all it's myriad forms, everyday loss of a glove

to the cataclysmic loss of a parent, or loss of a memory due to Alzheimer's.

And so I didn't cite it or situate it within any sort of genre.

And then as I became more, less rookie, realized about genres, but I suppose

I still, in some ways I'm just writing the books that I would like to read

or the stories that I want to tell.

And I just fancied, because I'm out of contract now and I think that

there's something terrifying about that, but there's also something

really totally liberating about it, so I'm going with the liberating.

So I thought, so I have the National Gallery, which I think is the sort of

story that I think will be accepted.

And I think won't let down the incredible readers that I have got to know.

But I've also quite like to have go cozy crime, cuz I'm quite fond of reading it.

And because there is a little wiff tiny wiff of mystery in what I've written.

As if they're in a very very small way, what if that's a little bit bigger.

So I'd like to try that and I don't think that would be such a

big crossover for readers, anyway.

And I just think I'd like to give it a go.

And I think there's something quite freeing about doing that.

And having the two horses in the same race.

Yeah.

I can definitely see that.

Cuz not wanting to spoil the book, but I have read The Invisible

Women's Club and absolutely loved it.

The elements of a spy thriller.

And very enjoyable as a reader, but also I could tell it's like quite

enjoyable as a writer, I imagine.

Just to have those drops in there.

And yeah, cozy crime.

I think, again, it's such a, an English thing as well.

I know, I know.

I can totally see yeah, your style really complimenting that.

Yes.

It's the world of the cardigan, quintessential English.

But, you know, I'm, so I've been reading some Elly Griffiths and I

love what she does with her detective.

So she's got like Harbinder Kaur, who is a Sikh Indian lesbian

who's not out to her parents and lives at home, what a brilliant.

brilliant protagonist for your field detective.

It's just lovely.

So I think there's a lot of exciting places to go in

writing a little bit of crime.

And also, I'm somebody that comes from autobiographical performance.

So now I'm suddenly having fiction.

It is just so pleasurable when you can just make it up, so it is lovely.

Yeah.

I've also heard, and I can't remember I heard it now, but that,

somebody was talking about it.

Was saying that crime writers and crime festivals are the best.

Cause crime writers are the nicest, most convivial, which

I just, I love knowing that.

Another thing I wanted to ask about when you are setting up your

stories, are you a prolific note taker or do you tend to just keep it all in

your head and then just try and recall it as you sit down to a writing session?

I do take notes and I am one of those writers that has a, a tiny

little sort of portable notebook or exercise book that I have with me that I

transfer to whatever bag I'm taking out.

And then on my desk, I have very little on my desk.

But I do have a big notebook that allowed me to do more drawings in it, actually.

I quite like to draw.

And some of the scenes.

So yes I like that because it's memory and I like it because it's

also about not just situating the writing to one room, to one space.

I think there's something for me that is quite fruitful about a forward motion.

I like writings to be not just in one place.

I do think for me it gets, it does literally get static,.

Yes.

So I like to write in different places.

And I've also been in times in my life where I haven't had anywhere to write.

Yeah.

So you get used to that.

And I remember when I first started writing, I would write anywhere.

And that also, I was working full time, so I didn't have time or space.

So then you have to find it in these sort of quite interesting ways.

I remember sitting on a bench.

I think it was in Washington Square Gardens, and this chap was urinating

on the bench as I was sitting on it, but I was like, I've just got to

finish getting these notes down, and then I'll let him have his bench.

Or writing you know, on when I hadn't got a notepad, just like on receipts.

So I do have that.

I do have that sort of thing.

And I like that, I like the sort of analog of that.

Yes.

Yeah.

From what I've heard that sort of writing with a pen and paper just feels much more

connected to the words than writing a on a you know, notes app in your phone.

I think maybe because we're raised with handwriting and

typing as a form of expression.

We're not raised in typing.

Maybe it's a generational thing.

It's maybe it is yeah, maybe it is.

Absolutely.

But I do, and I love writing in pencil as well, and I do

think you write differently.

You think differently.

There is something, because it's choreographic, there's

a body relationship to it.

So I do think that sometimes if I want to be thinking of a different way, if I want

to be a little bit more free, I will just take pencil and paper and I will go on

the move and I will write it in that way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, absolutely.

One thing I wanted to return back on, not letting it pass, you drawing scenes.

Is that you storyboard them out like a movie?

Or is it just like a map geographically that you're like looking down

and going, where are all the individual characters in this scene?

How do you interpret that in your drawings?

So I think it's less sort of structured and architectural than that.

And it is just more, I'm, I just thinking.

So I think sometimes it's about a way of imprinting their journey.

So like in Lost Property, I really felt that this was a journey from somebody

who was literally down in the basement.

It was literally under everything and then at the end emerges.

So sometimes I would write that.

I would draw this little pencil drawing that was about that sort

of manifestation of her actual sort of emotional psychological journey.

I would draw it.

And sometimes it's just the character, I think she looks like this.

So I would draw those sort of pictures of the characters.

So they're quite expressive.

Probably a lot less useful in some ways, but not structural.

It's much more expressive than stuff.

No, I, no, I think, it sort of like leans into that organic, expressive

emotional aspect, which is done so well in your books is actually having the face

of your character or how they're dressed to remind you of their state of being.

And it's just to remind you of their status at that point of the novel.

Because sometimes, with bad writing, and I think we've all witnessed it where they're

just like, suddenly they do something and hold on, weren't they injured?

Where's that injury gone?

Yeah, and I think that visual way of marking something is again,

comes from making performances.

When you're doing devised performances and also because you

have the freedom and performance that it can be really nonlinear.

So I've got little images on just little cards.

There's little index cards, and so doing drawing pictures of what

happens in that scene, just as a quick sort of aide-mémoire.

Or having just a couple of words, they express what happens in that scene.

And then I would move them all around and to see which one was

the best order for the show to be.

And I like that organic way of making work.

And I think that's another thing that translates.

So I there are some processes that are quite different from making performance

that I use now as a fiction writer.

But there are some that are really in, in conversation with each other

or exactly the same, which I like.

Cause it's always interesting to me, I'm still telling stories, but

this time I'm not embodying them.

This time the relationship with the reader is on the page, but there is

still a sort of an intimacy and a sense of personal address that I want to find.

So I, I as the first person, I like to use the first person quite a lot, which is the

voice I would use in performance as well.

But it's all about wanting to find that sense of proximity

or intimacy with a reader.

For them to find that with the characters and for them to find that with the story.

So it makes sense to me that some of the methods are the same.

Yeah.

No, absolutely.

And moving more onto your method of writing, when it actually comes

to a writing session, do you have a particular goal in mind of, I want to

get this scene down, or I want to do a chapter, or for certain word counts or

a certain conflict has to be overcome?

When you sit down in the morning say, okay, I'm gonna start writing today.

Do you have a set daily goal or is it a weekly goal?

How do you approach your writing sessions?

Yeah, I don't do word count.

Every time I've tried to do word count, it all falls apart because I do

think your focus then is counting the words and not focusing on the story.

That's what I do.

When I do word count, I end up cutting most of it, so I don't do word count.

But I do think that goals are good, especially when otherwise

everything get a bit amorphous.

So I do think it's good to have goals now, so like deadlines for me are really good.

So I would might say to my agent, can you just give me a deadline for this?

Because I'm quite obedient.

I'm quite a good student, so I will fulfill it.

So I know that.

So that's my big picture.

I ask for that and then work towards that.

In a day or over a week or over a month or whatever it is, what the structure

that I give myself is to finish scenes.

And I work, from the beginning of the book and I'm working through.

And sometimes I'll want to write a scene that I know isn't gonna happen yet, but

I'll write it and then I'll park it.

But mostly I, I work through sequentially.

And even if later on I might tear all of that up.

But it's definitely, I, my job every day is to finish

the scene that I'm working on.

Even if I think, oh, that was a really shabby couple of paragraphs I've got to

the end of it because you've just got to write it, to, you've gotta have a bash.

So I do that and I do try and get to the end of the scene, but I don't do

that thing that I know some writers do that I think it's remarkable,

when they just leave themselves a little kind of teaser at the end.

Like a cliff hanger, to go back to the next day to give them that

certain sort of je ne sais quoi.

I'm thinking, I can't do that.

If I didn't write what I was going to finish writing, I would've remember it.

So I don't do that.

I do just finish and then start the next scene the next day.

And I'm quite disciplined with myself.

I will do that.

I will finish this scene.

But I do find it really helpful to have a deadline.

And sometimes I also find it really helpful to have community.

Because so much of the writing that I've done, just in terms of the timing of

when it's happened has been in lockdown.

And I am somebody that is a performer and I'm a teacher and I like people.

I like being with people.

So I do find that I find that difficult.

Although I think theater is very collaborative and there are

absolutely parts of writing that are incredibly collaborative.

When all these extraordinary sort of brilliant angels swoop in.

You know, the publicists and the copy editor and obviously your agent,

and obviously your, your editor.

And all of these people are coming and just take some of that weight.

And they do all these remarkable things with the book.

And marketing and publicity people, these absolute goddesses, come in.

But there is the bloody long journey bit of it when it's just you and

that notepad and bloody pencil.

It is your long journey.

So there is something for me that there is something about community

and conviviality that I do seek.

So sometimes I will just go to the British Library and look at all those other

people and I find that I'd like that.

Like even when I'm not talking to them, there's a discipline in that I enjoy.

And I do also enjoy like listening to your podcast or Lucy Atkins has

a lovely Instagram that she does every week and it's short, but it's

just it's part of that whole thing about how do you get some work done.

Sometimes it's about being self disciplined and being on your own

journey and finishing your bloody scene.

But sometimes it is about saying, and in this part of the day, I'm gonna do

my 10,000 steps and then I'm gonna watch Lucy Atkins podcast, or I'm I'm gonna

listen to Jen Williams on your podcast, because it is really good to get a

different energy in and listen to someone else's process or listen to a really good

writer giving you any bloody good tips.

Because-

Thank you.

Yeah.

Promoting the show is always great, and I'm glad it helps.

Yeah.

It really is.

And it is very convivial as well, and I think that is so nice about it.

And I think writing is a process, that's why I like it.

It's like a practice and a process.

I'm a big, I'm a big yoga.

I did a lot of yoga and I like that because it's a process.

You are always aspiring and so every book I write, I'm hoping the

next one is going to be better.

Because it is part of the process and it is the long game.

And in that, things shift and one's processes shift and your way of writing

and thinking shift and alter and adapt.

And that's exciting.

That's what makes you want to keep doing it, you think.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

And another thing I wanted to touch on about your process, as you said, with

the Invisible Women's Club, you'd written about 60,000 80,000 words before you

realized your protagonist wasn't working.

Are there moments that you get really stuck?

And how do you identify at that point, when it gets bad, how do you

know it's time to junk it and start again, rather than to battle through?

Cause I think so many times people can get that struggle.

Yeah.

And it's just knowing, what is it that drives you to say,

no, this is a problem that I just need some time to think about.

Yeah.

And this is a problem that it's just actually for my own mental health, it's

just gonna be better to trash and start again rather than try and force through.

Yeah.

So the first time I did it, it was structural.

So I'd written this story and it was just I knew what I wanted to write about:

female friendship and invisibility.

And a little bit of menopausal vigilante activism thrown in.

As you do.

But it just, the focus wasn't right and the structure wasn't right.

And so my editor could point that out and I knew that.

So I rewrote it and I retitled it, and titles are quite big for me.

I retitled it.

The first time it was named after plot.

Second time it was named after protagonist, Janet Pimm.

Third time, the winning time it's named after the theme,

which was the invisibility.

Invisibility.

And I wasn't really just quite just being ballsy enough to just own that theme.

And I could see my way into that, but the final timeline changed it,

which was the most excruciating.

Because you've been with your book for such a long time and

it's still bloody lockdown.

So you've been with your book and nobody else for such a long time, and

you've rewritten it so many times.

And this was, I think this was October and I was supposed to give it in January.

So I was just really basically doing my last week, being back and forth,

and I was just doing my last edits.

And my agent was happy with it, and my editor was happy with

it, and I wasn't happy with it.

And then it was because I just thought there's a character here that's the

wrong character and I have to change it.

And I'm thinking, oh my God, tick tock.

But this is a really good thing, cause you've done so much bloody work on

it and cuz you know it and because you've gone through all of that hell.

Cause you've just been there at the coal face, you've just

kept on doing it and redoing it.

You absolutely bloody well know what it is that you have to do.

And this was like, this is a character.

So even though it felt huge, I was killing one character off.

She's been there forever and this has been with me for a couple of years.

Kill her off and bring in this new one who I haven't spent any time with.

But I have spent time with her.

Because innately I know that this is right because everything

that I've done up to this point.

So even though it did feel like a risk and it was a big

rewriting too, I also could do it.

And the writing was really fast.

Cause it was right, it was the right move.

Yeah.

It felt, it was risky but it was, it was right.

And because I had done all of that work, so we knew that it was right.

But it's not the most fun way to write, I hate to say, but it was interesting.

It's really interesting.

It's interesting because I was the one, even though I could get the

checkoff from everybody else, and these incredible, fabulous people that know

what they're talking about, there was something that wasn't right for me.

And now I'm, I really happy with the book because of that change, so...

And going bit more depth about rewriting, are you someone who just writes

a vomit draft of just all the ideas, just like race to the end and then pick up

the nuggets of gold on your second draft?

Or do you find yourself reworking scenes as you go?

How is your drafting in writing process?

So both.

So the first book that I wrote was Lost Property.

It was that, it was the everything down.

And then work it and work it, working from the whole draft.

With The Invisible Women's Club, there were three different those.

Yeah.

And there was some bits that was kept and salvaged from each.

But with the book I'm writing at the moment, I'm going much slower.

So I think part of that is, I do think you have to get that first

draft done and you can't fanny about and you can't be too precious.

But I am also trying to be, like I said, I'm just trying to work

a little differently with this.

So I am working a little bit though, so I'm editing a little bit more as I go.

And I think that is the right thing, but for the cozy crime I'm going

the other way because I think I know what that story is already.

So that's coming out really fast.

So again, I've got these, sorry to keep using all these idioms, but I

have got two horses in a race and one is going at one speed and one's going

at the other and they're both, yeah.

Like that.

But that, that absolutely comes from a learning experience.

But I do fundamentally think it's actually you've got to get that first job done.

I do think that is right.

Even I'm going slightly differently at the moment.

Yeah I think, you know, I'm going off memory rather than research here, but

when I interviewed Tim Sullivan about his crime novels, he was very much, he wanted

to write that first draft cuz he didn't know how the crime had been committed.

And it was a very much, it was his detective work.

Yeah.

But that's how you make it look smart.

Cause you've drop in all the little clues.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think there's something that I have really have learned.

And I think this really is true, that you realize how incredibly important

those first three chapters are.

And not just the first three chapters, but the first chapter

and the first page, and the first paragraph and the first sentence.

You do realize how important they're, of course you can always

go back and return to them.

But I want to get those right before I really sally forth with this one.

Because it's one of the things, the big things that I've learned is that

thinking about coming to the chase more.

You really do have to get the reader there.

That they are interested, but you have to seduce some pdq, you know?

Mm-hmm.

So there's first three chapter, you have to get them in.

And I think that's a skill and it's a craft.

Yeah.

And that's what I was saying that I sort of I love about this.

Is that I feel like a student, who is gathering up different

levels of experience.

Yeah.

Through practice and through listening to other writers and

through reading, attentively, reading.

One thing I wanna return back to, you were saying earlier about all the

people involved in the making of a book.

All the goddesses that assist you on the journey.

Now you are out of contract and you're writing a few pieces.

Once you've got a draft that you are comfortable with in isolation,

who are the next people to read it?

Do you have Beta readers?

Who, Who do you look for feedback from?

Yeah, so my partner who I have my theater company with.

So we have always collaborated, so we have a very easy relationship in

terms of sharing creative material.

And she's also just absolutely brilliant editor.

She's brilliant.

So it's such a gift.

So that she's the first person and she reads everything and she gives really

incredible feedback, and editing.

And then I have a couple of writers.

I think you have to be careful.

I think you have to know what it is that you want.

I like it, if people are asking me to read something, I like them to tell

me what kind of feedback they want.

What are they looking for?

Are they looking for structure?

Are they looking for character?

Are they looking for legibility, or what is it that they want?

Because that helps me.

And I also think that structure can help things not become too

emotional . Because all you really want, when you give something, something

is for them to say that's great.

Yes, did exactly.

Don't change a word.

It's perfect.

There's no, yeah, no need to do anything more.

And of course nobody says that.

Cause that's not what it is, it's a work in progress.

So I think to be really clear about what you want from that feedback,

I think that's really helpful.

To be really honest about what you're looking for.

So there's a couple of people that I would send an excerpt.

Not everything cuz you know, people are busy and they're

all doing their own writing.

An excerpt with clear guidelines about what I'm looking for.

Yeah, so they can just adhere to those guidelines and then I can

glean what I need to from that.

I think that's for me, that's quite helpful way of getting feedback.

But that's a small group.

Cuz again, I don't think, especially if you're doing that

in early, earlier stages, you need to keep your confidence up.

And you need to know what you want.

And then obviously when I feel I've got it into a shape that I'm more or

less happy with, then I would send it to my incredible smart agent.

Or if I'm in the midst of writing, I'll send it to my editor.

So depending on what situation I'm in.

So at the moment my agent, yeah.

Okay, great.

And when you've finished a project, because it takes quite a long time from

your initial conception to signing it away and going, okay, that's the final draft.

It's going to the printers now, and then there may be like proofreads,

but fundamentally the story is told.

Is that a relief moment for you, or is that a grief moment for you where it's

just I'm not gonna spend time in that space with those characters anymore?

Or is it just I'm really keen to get onto the next project, so I'm glad to

have all the edits finally signed off.

I'm sure it's a mixture of both, but do you find it tends to lean into more

of a relief setting to start something new or do you have a period of grief

before you start something new?

It is absolutely a mixture, but I think particularly with Lost

Property, maybe as it's my first book, I such sense of grief because I was

incredibly close to the story and incredibly close to the protagonist,

who's very particular kind of a woman.

And I was just wondering, I really did wonder how she was going to be out there.

Do you know?

I figured she was gonna be probably all right, but I was a bit worried for her.

And it's so interesting, that connection that you have.

So that was definitely about grief and I didn't want to let her, I wasn't

sure that I wanted to let her go.

But with the Invisible Women Club, because it had been hard, there was

some relief in having it done, in wanting to get onto something else.

So there was some relief, and then there's a little bit of

space, before it comes back to you.

But by the time I sent them off, they were so ready to go.

And that's a really nice feeling as well.

Especially, if there's been some sort of working and reworking.

When you actually think you're really convinced, then they're ready.

Then of course you can always make anything better.

Of course you can.

Of course you can.

My life has to go on and the next book has to be written, and yeah, the story's told,

and that's a nice feeling when you think, yes, that is the book I wanted to write.

And I think you have to feel that.

And I, yeah, that I really hold that feeling.

And I would say that to anybody, if you can feel good

about the book that you wrote.

And then of course you want people to like it.

Of course you do.

But I think you have to like it.

You have to feel proud of it.

You have to feel satisfied, and that is a really good feeling.

And yeah.

Yeah.

Great.

We've talked at great length and I've really loved speaking to you today.

As you've listened to the show, you know the last two questions, but

I've gotta say them out loud anyway.

It's my belief that writers continue to grow and develop their writing

with each story that they write.

Was there anything in particular that you learned during writing the

Invisible Women's Club that you're now applying to either or both of

the works that you're working on now?

Yeah, absolutely and I'm probably just going to re-say what I've just

said, which is basically not to rush.

I really learned not to rush and to cut to the chase more.

To really in those first three chapters to nail it in terms of pace, in terms

of storyline, in terms of plot,.

To really take the reader there.

That those first three chapters do need to do quite a lot of

heavy lifting to get it going.

Yeah.

To cut to the chase more.

I think that's definitely what I've learned and yeah, not to rush.

Okay.

And cause I feel thi this could be the same answer, so I'm gonna try

and frame it a bit differently.

Across all of your writing, is there one piece of advice you

found your yourself returning to?

That you know, something that you either read or got told that

even back in your theater days.

It's just this is the one token advice that I would always tell

and always resonated with you.

Yeah.

And it is actually from the old theater days, which is that the

only way home is through the show.

And it's about you keep on keeping on.

It really is so simple.

But it's just sometimes you just have to write it, you know?

That's the only way home.

The only way home is through the story.

That is your way and sometimes you can spend a lot of time thinking and

worrying and chatting and note taking and conversing with other people about it.

And actually you can get a lot more release and relief by just

sitting down and writing it.

And that is actually quite lovely.

And to believe that, that focus, that story, just believing in that

and letting it take you through.

That'll take you home, that'll take you to the end of your story, that'll

take you to the end of your journey.

And I find that quite helpful.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

I think that's a great piece of advice, not one that I've heard before.

Thank you very much Helen, and thank you very much Helen Parrish

for being my guest this week.

Oh, thank you.

It was absolutely lovely.

And that was the real writing process of Helen Paris.

I told you it was lovely.

You can find Helen on Twitter and Instagram and the invisible woman's club

is released on the 3rd of August, 2023.

I only put the year in, because I know some of you will be listening

to this far in the future.

So 3rd of August is the future when this episode was first released, but

is the distant past for most of you.

Time's nuts.

But future listeners, I appreciate you.

And it's never too late to buy Helens books.

I wish I was better at outros to be honest.

I feel I should be able to give you a little bonus for

listening to the whole thing.

But there's no ads, so that's nice.

Uh, you know, make a website with whoever you want, eat whatever you want.

I don't care if you use a VPN.

Live your life.

I'll play the song in a second though.

I know you loved the song.

I know you've missed the song.

Oh, Here's the intro note that I talk over, you know, the bit where I could

say, please keep writing and make it go loud after I say, until the world ends.