This episode explores the impact of religious trauma on personal identity, focusing on Chris’s experience as a queer person raised within fundamentalist Christianity. Chris reflects on growing up in a Charismatic Baptist church, where emotionally intense healing practices and fear-based teachings shaped his early understanding of faith and selfhood. He shares how messages about sexuality, particularly the framing of homosexuality as broken or demonic deeply affected his mental health, contributing to years of shame, anxiety, and OCD. As the conversation unfolds, Chris speaks candidly about the painful process of reconciling faith with his authentic self, and the emotional fallout of realising that the beliefs meant to save him were also causing harm. The episode highlights the complexity of healing from religious trauma and the importance of honest conversations about faith, sexuality, and recovery for those navigating similar paths.

Connect with Chris

1. For information on SOGICE - https://sogicesurvivors.com.au
2. To connect with Chris - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-csabs-67152b224/

Connect with Sam

1. You can find out more about Sam on her website - www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
2. To connect with Sam on Instagram - @anchoredcounsellingservices
3. Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.
4. Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be aboriginal land. Welcome to beyond the Surface.

This is a space for conversations that sit at the edges of faith, identity, power and recovery, especially for those of us who have been shaped so stretched or harmed by fundamental religion or high control systems. Some episodes are personal, some are reflective, some are educational or curious or quietly disruptive.

All of them are grounded in lived experience and a deep respect for the complexity of leaving, questioning and rebuilding meaning.

We will be talking about religious trauma, various forms of abuse, cult dynamics, queerness and recovery, not in answers, but in honest conversations. In listening to these conversations, some parts might be heavy or activating for you.

Please take care of yourself while listening and feel free to pause or step away if you need to. I'm Sam and I'm really glad that you're here with us. Welcome. Chris. Thanks for joining me.

Thank you for having me. I'm.

I feel like this interview has been a long time coming. I feel like it's taken a while.

Yes.

I feel like it was part of. It was my fault because I just, like, had so many people I was reaching out to and like, it just perpetually got longer and longer and longer.

This was definitely my fault. This is my fault.

We're not here to lay blade, but I'm just glad you're here.

It's good.

So for people who don't know you, where in the world are you at the moment?

I live in Sydney.

Beautiful.

Yep. Bical and Gadigal country and. Yeah, that's beautiful.

Lovely.

I love to start these episodes with something super vague. Big, broad question. Where does your story start?

Oh, my gosh. Where does my story start? A long way back. Approximately 40 years. No, my story starts when I was a kid, I think, growing up in church. Grew up in a.

A Charismatic Baptist church. Okay. Which was a little bit unusual, I guess.

I remember my first memories of church from the 90s and I would have been seven or eight and going to this Charismatic Baptist Church.

And I remember that it Became quite controversial because this particular church was having healing nights, and it was in the paper and it was on the news, which was a big deal back then. I know now everything's on somewhere, but back then that was a big deal. Yeah.

Because, you know, people were, you know, apparently being healed or going, yeah, something was going on. And I just remember being. I had.

I was talking to my parents about this the other day, you know, just from a child's perspective, what it was like to be at a church where adults were behaving strangely, you know, where people were being prayed over and they were falling over and people were, you know, roaring like lions or were, you know, they'd be being prayed over and they'd be weeping or screaming. And I remember being distressed at times as a kid because it felt. It felt like.

Like the adults in your world are supposed to be the ones that kind of have it all together. And it just felt really. Not that I would have articulated this at the time, but thinking back to it, I remember feeling like, what's going on?

And feeling a bit unsafe at times because so many things were happening around and it wasn't. It wasn't an unsafe place. And, you know, I enjoyed parts of it. But I do remember that feeling of sort of like, who's kind of in.

Like, is anyone here, like, of a sound mind, you know, at any one time?

Like, who's the grown up here?

Yes, well, kind of, you know, and I mean, it was the 90s, so back then we used to.

The kids in the church, we used to go play down in the car park underground, and like, all the parents would be upstairs falling over and doing all that stuff. Not saying that disrespectfully. Yeah, but. And then we would go up and I remember. I mean, we were like seven or eight or something.

And so I remember being prayed over and falling backwards and stuff. And I'm. I mean, I don't know that I did it consciously at the time, but I'm pretty sure I faked it a few times as. As kids would, you know.

I mean, when you're seeing adults around you doing it.

So anyway, it's like mimicking behavior.

Yeah. And I. So I. There's a few memories from that time, and they all kind of smushed together for me. Probably between the age of ages of like 7 and 12.

At some point in that period, I have a vivid memory of.

A person, my childhood friend's father, actually, who I knew very well, saying to my dad that someone had come in off the street and asked for healing because they were gay, homosexual. And so they'd come off the street and so they had prayed over this person.

And I remember hearing my friend's father say, oh, and this, this, this guy, we prayed for him and seven. Seven demons came out of him. Bam, bam, bam, bam. Like this. And I. It was like. I don't know if they knew that I was listening, but.

But it freaked me out because at that point I knew that I was gay. Even though I hadn't sort of fully admitted to myself, I knew I did know. And I started thinking, what if I've got a demon in me? Yeah. Because if that.

If that gay man had seven demons, you know, and I've started to notice that I. I'm definitely attracted to males, then I must, you know, there must be at least one demon inside me. And that was a really frightening thing, especially, I think, because of the.

Like, I'd seen people being prayed over and screaming like, you know, when you grow up in a church like that, I'm not saying they're bad, but when you grow up in a church like that and see that kind of stuff, and then you go, hold on. What if I've got one in me? And it. And, you know, you've heard something that really makes it seem like that could be real.

And you've grown up believing completely in demons and in, you know, spiritual warfare and all of that stuff. It's terrifying.

And I remember being very scared of that and praying over and over and over again, you know, just that God would take the demon out of me or that, you know, he'd protect me from it. Yeah.

Was that the first time you had heard people around you talking about someone who was gay?

No. I feel like. So I can't ever remember.

I can't ever remember hearing an explicit sermon or anything on gay people, but I do remember knowing very strongly that gay people were considered disordered, but not only that, it was linked somehow to pedophilia. And I remember my dad saying a few things because I. I asked a few questions.

One time we were driving through King's Cross and Mum and dad were talking about something I probably shouldn't have been talking about in front of me, and I. And I had a question and I sort of said, you know what? You know, why would. You know, why would people do that? And I just remember that there was.

There was. I can't remember what the conversation was, but there was some link made between homosexuals and pedophiles. Yeah.

Which, again, unfortunately, was not uncommon in the early 90s, that people would sort of, you know, this idea that gay people were dangerous for children, you know, I mean, even like back, you know, was it the 60s when, like the Anita Bryant crusade, like, over in the U.S. you know, that big thing about Save our Kids. Yeah. Like that.

I feel like it's not get. It's like it's only gotten marginally better, to be fair, like the drag conversation.

And things like that. Still, it's definitely changed a bit. But, I mean, certainly I remember in the early 90s that there was that. And, like, I was aware of it.

Yeah.

I don't know exactly how I became aware of it, but I do remember. I. It's like, you know, kids hear things. You know, like, this is the thing you say.

Things are said in church, whether it's an overheard conversation, like me with my dad's friend or with my friend's dad. Um, or, you know, or if it's from the pulpit, it doesn't matter. Those things that children here are absorbed. Yeah.

And they carry a lot of weight because especially in, like, a faith community or something like that. It's like, as a child, you hear it and you think these people know what they're talking about.

Yeah.

These are. These are my trustworthy adults. They're part of my trusted community. And so I. Yeah.

So it wasn't the first time that I'd heard anything about gay people, but certainly it was. It's probably the most memorable because. For me. Because it was just so scary.

Yeah.

You know. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you remember what you. And this might be a really tricky question, but do you remember what you.

As a child did with that fee? Like, what did you do with it?

I was. I was a very anxious child. Yeah. And I. Unfortunately, I carried that fear along with the fear of hell, which was a very real fear for me. Yeah.

And the fear that suddenly the Rapture was going to happen and that I would be left behind and how's the last few weeks? Oh, my gosh, I'm fine. I'm fine now.

I'm so glad.

As a child, and even. I, like, honestly, as a teenager and as an older teenager, too. Yeah. I was absolutely terrified of the Rapture happening.

Yeah.

And that I was going to be left and it didn't matter how much. And even. Honestly, even into my twenties, because even. Even how.

No matter how hard I tried to be evangelical or to be, you know, a really good Christian or to be, you know, and like, I loved Jesus, you know, but I just had this feeling it's not enough because I'm so bad. You know, something within me is broken and something within me is so repugnant to God that I'm going to be left behind.

And so I carried all of those fears with me from a very young age. I. I really held on to them into adulthood. And so I think what.

The way that kind of worked itself out for me was that I developed a really severe case of OCD that was. Had a lot of religious sort of religiosity attached to it. And like, when I say Severo City, I don't mean I was a clean freak particular.

No, no, no, no.

Yeah, so I had the hand washing thing, but like I was washing my hands till they would bleed. Yeah. You know, and. But beyond that, it was more than that. It was ritual praying ritual, like, sort of. How do I say it?

So I had like, scripts that I would go through as ritual prayers or ritual rebukes of the. The devil that would make me feel like, okay, if God comes back right now, I'll be okay. Do you know what I mean?

But then, of course, five seconds later, all over again. Don't feel like I'm okay. I have to redo it, you know. And so these, these ritual prayers and these sort of. Yeah, it. It took over everything.

And it was to the point where getting dressed in the morning would take, you know, a significant amount of time.

So this is like, so a breakdown of me getting dressed at one point was I would have to get all my clothes out and lay them without touching on the bed.

But I'd take one item out, put on the bed, shut the drawer, walk around the room three times thinking about certain things or praying these ritual prayers. Get back to the drawer, open the drawer, you know, put it out, do that. That takes ages. Had to be. It had to feel right. It had to feel like I.

Like I had to mean the prayers. So it was like a very. It wasn't like a sloppy kind of like, I just need to get through this.

It was like my whole mind and body had to be focused and it was so tiring.

And more often than not, I would make a mistake or I would feel like I didn't mean that enough, and everything had to go back in the draw and I had to start again. And so it would take like, you know, sometimes, you know, hours to do things.

Yeah, I developed a really, really significant fear of this will sound really stupid.

I don't know how to explain this without it sounding silly, because it is a ridiculous concept, but somewhere I got this idea that, you know, that you could sell your soul for things. And of course, with ocd, you have a lot of intrusive thoughts. Right.

And so the intrusive thought that I would have was if I ever wanted something, even something like a glass of water, the thought would pop into my head. Oh, I'd sell myself for that. And then I would have to.

I mean, I'd freak out and I'd go through Jesus, you know, and like, go through these prayers over and over and over again.

And then, you know, I'd make up a little rule to say I'm not allowed to have that drink of water until the clock turns over past midnight, because then it's a new day. And somehow that made it, you know, like, just weird. It's people with ocd. Listen, he will probably understand, but.

Yeah, so I think that's how all those fears that I had really manifested themselves with very. It was very severe ocd. And. Yeah, I. I have memories also of walking around the school. I went to a Christian school and really being like, frightened.

This was when I was older, I was probably 14 or 15, but really being frightened that I might have a demon in me that was like causing this broken sexuality, you know, in me and causing me to. To not feel like the way that I knew that I was supposed to feel, according to everything that I'd ever known.

Yeah.

You know, I had. I had grown up in a bubble, so. And by that I mean I went to a Christian school. I went to church on the weekend. Yeah. All of my friends were Christian.

And like, when I say Christian, I mean active Christians, not nominal, like.

Yeah, not the lukewarm.

But like. And I went to. I went to a small Christian school.

School where probably 90%, I reckon, of the families that put their kids there were evangelical Christians that were actively involved in church and whatever else. So I really didn't have any outside input. Yeah. You know, and so my world view was tiny. Yeah. Even as a 16 year old. Yeah.

I mean, I know that we'll talk a lot about, like, the way that, you know, the church and your sexuality and all of that are intertwined, but I'm curious how your family, like your parents and the church responded to the ocd.

Well, thankfully, the church, I know it sounds like one of those churches, but the church was not the type of church that would say that mental illness was caused by a demon. Thankfully. Great.

We love that.

And so I was diagnosed with OCD quite quickly.

Okay.

I think around the age of 13. But I think because I wasn't able to be honest with anyone about my. My true fears, which were about my sexuality.

I went for years going to see Christian counselors or psychologists, but really nothing helped because I wasn't able to be truly honest with anyone. Yeah. So it was largely unhelped. And it got worse and worse as I got older. And in the end, so I. I was also very Christian. Like, you know.

Yeah.

I mean, I do like to ask early on in these episodes, like, who was God to you throughout all of this? Like, what's your faith like?

So I feel like my faith. My faith had kind of two parts to it. There was one part of my faith where I was like, I know that I love Jesus.

I know that I really genuinely love God and I want to serve him. I want to do the right thing, you know. Loved going to church when I was older because I went to a different church, had made friends there.

Yeah.

I really felt, Yeah, I didn't question whether Jesus was real. It was just something that I knew, you know, so there was that side of it. But on the other side, I was extremely.

Legalistic evangelical to the point of, like. I mean, I had questions about how. I didn't have questions about whether God was real or about whether the Bible was real or whether Jesus was real.

I had questions about, you know, how do I know that I've ticked all the boxes? How do I know that I've done everything? How do I know that this verse doesn't mean that I should be, for example, giving away everything that I own?

Yeah, you know, what if. Yeah, it means that literally, you know, and so I was evangelical to that point and very like. And like, I would have these things and then I would.

I would give away, like, you know, it was. I was really full on. And that was. I was a weird child.

I think I must have been a bit strange because I. I asked my parents at 15 if I could move schools. I didn't want to go to the Christian school anymore. I wanted to go to a public school because.

Don't say you wanted to evangelize.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

Well, it wasn't. It wasn't quite so, like, I'm gonna save everyone. It wasn't like that. It was more like, I don't have any non Christian friends.

And at youth group, we talk a lot about telling our non Christian friends about Jesus. Yeah. And I don't know any non Christians. There is no one in my world that's non Christian. And I. I really, really wanted to share that. With people.

Because the Jesus that I loved was a loving, grace, gracious God. Even though I. There was this other side of it that. Where I couldn't accept that for myself.

Yeah.

You know, and God was a scary, angry God, you know, but the God that I felt like I could share with people was this loving, beautiful, wonderful God. And I really, genuinely wanted to share that with people. And so I asked my parents if I could go to a public school. And they were like, why?

I remember. I remember sort of telling teachers at the Christian school about that, and they were like, why would you want to go to that school? That's a.

That's a rough school. Like, you know. Oh, Chris, no, I don't think you. I don't think that'll be good for you. Because I was gay. I'm sure everyone knew it.

Like, it wasn't exactly, you know. Yeah. I wasn't. I wasn't straight acting. Let's just say that. And I was also this hyper Christian. So I was like this walking kind of.

I don't know, like, contradiction. But. And. But I think. I think another part of that also, if I'm being truthful, was also that the OCD had become so.

It had taken over every part of my life.

And so kids at school had started to notice, and I was doing strange things and actions during the day that were to alleviate, obviously, my anxiety and fears, but would have looked crazy, you know, like walking backwards or like shaking my head, you know, if I had a intrusive thought and shaking my head, like, you know, obsessively. Yeah. So I think part of it was also, I just need a clean start. I just need to go somewhere else. So I think there was a couple of different reasons.

Yeah. If I'm honest. But I. Yeah. When I moved to this school. Wow. Like, I. I look back on it and I cringe. Like I was so cringy.

Like, I. I would struggle to like me. Like, now looking back, I'm like.

I often say the same thing.

That was. No, but wait for. Was full on. I was 15. Okay. I've rocked up at this public school. I don't know anyone. Yeah. Don't know anyone rocked up.

Kids immediately saw that I was like a weirdo. I think.

New.

At least I was odd. Yeah. You know, New. But also that I was a bit strange. Keeping in mind that I had grown up in a bubble. I didn't know anything.

I wasn't allowed to watch the Simpsons, you know, Like, I was not allowed to watch. Read Harry Potter. Like, it was all that stuff.

And so there was a lot of things that I just hadn't engaged with before that were normal, you know, in the real world for kids my age. And so the first thing I did, and this was on the second day at this new school, I. I decided that I was going to invite everyone to my baptism.

And so I spent all night on my computer on, you know, making these invitations. And they had little cartoon characters on them. Like, honestly, I swear, I just want to, like. I want to go back in time and, like, throttle myself.

Um, and it was like. Yeah. And anyway, I printed. I reckon I printed probably about a hundred of them.

And I walked around the school with this bundle of ridiculous invitations, and I was handing them out to everyone. And when I say that, it was met with ridicule. Like, I can't. I cannot overstate how ridiculed I was. And I was not confused. But I. I sort of thought.

I don't. I really don't know how to make friends here. Yeah. You know, even the. There were some kids that I recognized from.

I didn't know them, but I. I knew that they were Christians because. Or that they were.

They went to youth group because they went to a youth group from the church down the road from mine, and we'd done some united events.

Yeah.

And so I recognized them and I was like, oh, my gosh, they're my. They're going to be my friends. And it.

I learned very quickly on the first day that they were the cool kids or in the cool kids group, and they did not want to be my friend at all. And it was. They were embarrassed of me as well, because I was saying that I was a Christian, whatever else. Yeah.

I think I got the nickname Christian Chris on, like, my first day of school there. Anyway, so handing out these invitations, I.

Feel like we might have actually been friends in high school.

Chris, you would have pitied me. That's what it would have been, actually. Do you know what? So this. This is actually a really great story, actually. Like, I.

And I. I love it because it's true. And it's just. I don't know, it really taught me something.

The time I. I remember my first day, I rocked up to science and sort of got left outside the room. Everyone else was already in there, knocked on the door, and they said, come in. And like, you know, the new kid walks in and it's just awful.

Sit down in the front row, whatever. And the lesson kind of washed over me.

But I remember part way through, they said, oh, turn to the to the people around you and start talking about this concept. We were learning about light. And I turn around and this kid behind me. The only reference I had to what this kid looked like was Marilyn Manson.

Like, he was full gothic, wearing makeup, everything, black hair. And I remember he was. He was sitting there.

This sounds very dramatic, but he was sitting there leaning forward and he had black hair coming over his eyes and he was just tapping his black nails and sort of looking at me like this. And I immediately was like, Jesus, please protect me. You know, Like, I was like, oh, my God, stop. You know, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh.

Like, I saw that he had a pentagram around his neck and I was like, he's a witch. Oh my goodness. I've heard about, you know, witches and whatever else. And like, you know, I went like evangelical crazy. I wasn't unkind and I didn't.

He didn't notice me doing any of this. I don't think he probably saw that I was a bit like, oh, like, yeah. Anyway, so whatever. Handed out all my invitations to anyone that would take them.

And I, I had, I had kids sort of take them and then screw them up and chuck them.

I had, I had one kid, he was skipping class, I think, and I was late to class and he was smoking a cigarette and I walked past him and he goes, hey, hey, new kid, are you hanging. You handing out invitations? Oh, can I have one? Thanks. Thanks, buddy. Thank you. And I was like, no worries. Get it out of my, you know, give it to him.

And I just remember I was walking off and I was like, thank you, Jesus, that was amazing. Turn around. And I just see him setting it on fire with his. Oh, my goodness. You know, like, it was just. That was your poor little heart.

Listen, like, honestly, I had to go through it. I had to realize. I. I realized very quickly I have grown up in a way that has made me very strange. And I knew that I must be strange.

And it was probably a good thing that I went through that because I needed to know. Yeah, it was many years before I would realize what not strange meant, but there you go.

But anyway, long story short, what happened was, was I got to the end of that first week and I had, you know, 20 or 30 invitations left. And these two girls came up to me and they were kind of the punky looking kids. And they came up and they said, ah, you're Christian Chris, right?

Like, yeah, I guess. And they said, you know, you're handing out invitations. Can we have some and by then I was like, a bit wary and I was like, yeah, of course you can.

Not getting my hopes up. Gave it to them and they were like, okay, cool, thanks. See ya. I didn't think anything of it.

I found out later that those two girls had talked to their whole group, which included that the boy that was sitting behind me in science and had said, that new kid, Christian Chris is handing out invitations to his baptism. We should all go. And on the Sunday they all showed up. They were sitting in the back row. There was six or seven of them. I could.

I can remember all of them, so I could count it, but it's not important. But there was six or seven of them and they watched me get baptized. And I mean, they looked so out of place. It was so funny. Like, they.

Yeah, they were like. And like, you know, the. The gothic kids showed up in this fabulous. I mean, amazing out just the campus. It was like this.

It was like a pv, shiny pvc, black with on purple on the inside. I think black, you know, coat that went all the way down to. He had these huge boots on. He looked amazing and, you know, very out of place.

Has anyone seen anyone like this before in church? It was, yeah, but I was over the moon and I was just like, oh, my gosh, like, wow.

People actually came and I've got this beautiful photo of us, actually. I wish I'd brought it. I've got a beautiful photo of me with this big smile on my face, looking very, you know, right after my baptism.

And like, these, like, punky gothic kids standing around me for this photo. And they became my friends. And so they were my friends through years 10, 11, and 12. And thank God for them.

But it was very funny because the people that I thought would be friends with me, which were the Christian kids, wanted absolutely nothing to do with me. And these kids were so gracious and, you know, I'm sure I was entertaining. They.

They found me very funny because, like, they'd sort of go, how do you not know what pot is? Like, you know, whatever.

Yeah, I'm sure I was entertaining, but they genuinely liked me and they appreciated my naivety and helped me to work out who I was, I think, you know. Yeah, yeah. Isn't that a cute story?

It is beautiful. When you said it, I actually got a bit teary because I was like, that's actually so beautiful.

And it's like there's such a layer underneath that of like, you know, let's not actually judge people based on, you know, outward appearance and not expect yeah, all of that.

So, yeah, it was definitely. I mean, I learned a lot that those three years. So year 10, 11 and 12 were the biggest learning curve of my life.

It was like going from this Christian bubble out into the real world. And it was like the shock of a lifetime.

Yeah. And so what was those three years and sort of like moving out into, I guess, like the big wide world after high school?

What was that like for you in terms of, like, where were you at with your sexuality? What was that like internally for you throughout what we would consider, like, that identity forming, like, everybody's starting to have sex.

We're talking about sex. Like, you know, what was all of that like?

Oh, yeah, that was. That was a shock too. Yeah. Look, I. So I. I knew I was gay at that point and I had already. I remember at 15, I went to a.

A youth group and there was a brochure at the youth group for it wasn't Living Waters, it was a different ministry, but it was an ex gay ministry.

Yeah.

And I saw this brochure on a table while I was there, and I very secretively picked it up and put it in my pocket and took it home and I read it and I kept that in a drawer kind of hidden. And I knew at right then I was like, I'm going to call them if I'm still gay when I'm 18, I'm going to call them and I'm going to.

And so at 15, I knew that I was gay and I was quite scared of it. And I spoke to a pastor about it at actually at the, the first church, the, The Charismatic Baptist Church.

I went and visited and spoke to a pastor about it and he prayed for me. And like, yeah, I guess I start, like, I.

That's when I, like, really started descending into the conversion practices movement because I was engaging with materials and even online I was looking up, you know, ex gay stuff to find out how do people get healed? How do people change? You know, so that was at 15.

At 16, I moved into year 11, went to a senior campus and met the first gay person that I'd met that was out. And he was very handsome and he was. He was a year older than me. He was in year 12 and I was in year 11.

And I developed a crush immediately, which was very difficult because I felt so guilty for it.

But I, like, I was just so intrigued by this, by this person because he was the first person I'd ever heard say, like, he wasn't ashamed of being gay at all. And I Didn't understand that because all I felt was shame. And all I felt was.

Like, even Centrelink didn't, like, recognized gay relationships.

And so there was this sense, for me, anyway, I can only speak for myself, there was this sense that not only does the Christian world kind of reject gay people, and I wasn't really super aware of trans people back then, but I knew that the church rejected gay people and so did kind of the government and so did society in general. It was like. It was a negative thing, you know, and that's how I felt. And so to see this kid who was.

He must have been 17 at the time, be so confident and happy and, I mean, I remember he. He. He. He used the phrase my boyfriend, and I was like, whoa, like, what? He's got a boyfriend? Like, what?

That doesn't make any sense, you know, and that was really. I think it was important for me to meet him because. And, yes, we did date for a very short, like, two weeks, but it was the best two weeks.

Yeah, I love that.

I was very excited because he also happened to be the hottest guy at the school. So. Yes. You know, so. Yeah. Yeah. So that's where I kind of started to get the. A different view. Yeah. On homosexuality.

And obviously the friends that I had made were kind of part of this alternative group, and so they kind of embraced him, and I ended up later that year going to drama camp and coming out at drama camp. So it's all very, you know, a little bit stereotypical there.

But, yeah, I came out at drama camp and I. I was already struggling at church because I think, Sorry, if this is too much information, just tell me to move on. But, like, I think when I. I can talk for hours, so just tell me, because I do have adhd, so I will just.

All right.

Same.

We're much better.

Oh, great. So we'll be here till midnight.

Yeah, no, I, like, I think I was really struggling with working out who I was, and so I was trying on a whole lot of different things.

And so, you know, I became friends with these kids, and so I started to adopt some of the things they were wearing, and I started to listen to some of their music. I didn't really like it. I was a huge Spice Girls fan, But, you know, like. But, you know, I was Trying on these different things. So I started wearing.

Look. I look back at photos, and I'm like, mom, why did you let me go out looking like that? And she's like, dar, you thought you looked amazing.

And I was like, okay, well, okay.

But, you know, I started going to youth group, and I remember having some fairly negative reactions from some of the youth group leaders, just about how I was dressing and about sort of. Yeah.

I guess I was starting to feel like I'd always felt like I was only accepted at youth group and at church because I was such a good Christian and because I was more than the other kids there. Like, I was like. I would put my hand up for everything. I was, like, bending over backwards, trying to get.

I guess, really I was trying to get validation that I was okay and that I was a good person and that I was liked. And the way I got that was by complying with all the norms of church, but also by surfing a lot. Like, going to church all the time.

I would walk there after school and, like, go and fold newsletters or, like, I remember cleaning the church during the holidays because I was, like, there, and I was like, do you want me to. Yeah, no, I'll do that. I'll do. You know, I was that kid.

And when I stopped doing those things and started to kind of try on a couple of different things, like different clothing or whatever it was, I felt the distance was immediate. And it started. I started to kind of feel very distanced from the leadership at church, but just. I felt very judged. Yeah.

And so when I went to this drama camp, it was. I was already in a place of really feeling like an outsider at youth group and at church. My friends at school, they were like. They were real.

They were. They were. They were talking about real things. Like, they were talking about stuff like, you know, like. I don't know, like, the. Like, the. The.

The issues that I came across with them. It was like I had friends that were, I think, like, 15, living out of home, and, like, you know, had, like.

They told me they'd never had, like, a passion fruit before or something. And it was, like. That was shocking to me. And, like, just. I don't know, I was coming across these things, and I was like, this is real.

And at church, it's like, we're just talking about abstaining from masturbation and about. Like, we're talking about Jesus, and we're talking about, you know, not being lukewarm Christians and all these things.

But I was kind of like, what about all this real stuff, like what about drugs? What about homelessness? Sex homelessness?

You know, like I was like, my friends had opened this, the real world to me and I sort of, it didn't feel like church or the youth group at that time was, I don't know, like it was, I was coming up a little bit short there and so I started to move a little bit away. And so I went to this drama camp and came out and came out in a big way and it came back and told everybody because I was like, you know what?

I'm just gonna be loud and proud, you know, and I like, I burst out of that closet, man. Like I. Yeah, okay, I'm gonna ask.

A question here though, because you burst out of the closet.

But I know from personal experience and from a lot of that we can come out, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we are affirming of our sexuality in that moment. And it doesn't mean there is an absolute chaos and mass amounts of pain and shame and all of the things that come after that.

So what was the window of time between, I guess, when you did have that big coming out to when you actually felt a self affirmed at home in yourself and in your sexuality?

A couple of decades, actually. Yeah. So after coming out and stuff, I mean, there was stuff at church that sort of.

I felt really rejected, but I was also very indignant about it and sort of, I was very, like, I was a little too, like, I was angry, I think.

Like a teenager.

Well, yeah, I was a teenager, but I was also a teenager that had kind of been in this like, like it was a pressure cooker really, because like sort of stuck in this like bubble with all these things going on that were very scary and very like bubbling below the surface that I didn't know what to do with. And I, you know, and all of a sudden I had these friends at school that were kind of like, you're okay, like, you know, whatever.

And so I was really angry.

I was angry that church wasn't a place where I could be honest about myself and that if I was, that I felt that I would be rejected and that, you know, I, I felt really. Yeah, I was angry. And so I kind of.

Yeah, I guess I, I made a big thing of being gay at church because I just wanted to kind of rub people's face, which is, you know, very 16 years old of me, or 17, whatever I was at the time. 17.

And anyway, so about six months later, my family took me to Tasmania with my brother and we went and stayed in a Christian village down there to, to do a Christian like conference that went for several days. But this particular Christian organization had actually bought up a tiny village in Tasmania. I don't know if you know who they are, but they had.

Yeah. So this whole village was Christian and it was quite bizarre.

They had like lots of rules that were called norms and you know, including like, you know, times that we had to be inside at night and like, you know, no alcohol, no cigarettes, no whatever.

And so we went down there and I was not happy like, because even though, okay, so like I was, I was gay and I was out and I was pretending to be really out and proud and fine. But on the inside I knew this was going to be short lived because I knew that I still believed in hell and I didn't want to go there. Yeah.

So I knew that at some point I'm going to drag myself back to church with my tail between my legs.

And I didn't want to go to this little Christian village because I was a bit scared that that was going to kind of, I don't know, I was really uncomfortable there. Yeah. But anyway, after being there for about a week I, I decided that I was going to be ex gay.

And I was congratulated by everybody there, all the leaders or like it was, you know, they set me up with youth workers that were in Sydney, Christian youth workers that were working in Sydney to have regular check ins.

And.

So I had Bible study every week with them and I would go and help out at the youth center that they were running and I got that little pamphlet out that I'd kept in my, my drawer and I started googling. And I had gone to my pastor before this when I was 16 and told him that I think I might be gay.

I think this might have been the catalyst for me being a bit angry at the church. I'd gone to him and said to him, I'm, I'm, I think I'm gay and I don't know what to do with it. And he told me it can change, you can be healed.

And he introduced me to Ron Brookman who is the director of Living Waters at the time. So I was 16 and at the time the pastor sort of said to me and I really looked up to him very much.

He was quite young and he said to me, you know, we could, you know, let's meet regularly and sort of, you know, I can talk to you and whatever else. And like honestly at the time I was like, I'm just desperate for like Some sort of, like, affirmation that I'm okay and like, whatever.

So I was like, yes, great, let's meet. So I thought we were going to be meeting regularly. And he said, you need to tell your parents if we're going to do that.

So I came out to my parents and then we never met and never sort of spoke about it again.

And so I think that's where a bit of my anger came from and sort of spurred me on to sort of come out and be whatever, because that happened just before I went on this. On that drama camp. Sorry, I'm going. The timelines. Okay. But, yeah, anyway, so I decided that.

That I was going to do this Living Waters course that had been introduced to me by Ron and that I would do it when I was 18. So. But I decided that first I was going to go back and live in that little Tasmanian village for six months, and I was going to do six months there.

So I went and did that, which was interesting. I. Look, it was. Look, I loved it. I made lots of friends and I was super, super Christian again, you know, so.

Yeah, I mean, that's like.

It was. It was like.

It would have been intoxicating almost.

I made friends and we. We sort of try and like, sneak out at night after the curfew and all, you know, just being stupid and it was fun. But there was a guy there who.

Two guys, actually, who became my best friends. And they were both blokey and they were both. So one of them was 22.

I was only 18, and he was muscular and, like, just everything that I wished that I was. Yeah. Very good looking. All the girls in the village were, like, swooning and he wanted to be friends with me and I was like, that's great. What?

Me too. Like, you know, but it was really confusing because, like, I had read sort of and heard from.

I'd gone to, like, some Liberty Christian Ministries nights and stuff, and I'd heard from that, you know, when you're struggling with homosexuality, you're supposed to have male friends that, like, affirm your identity as, like, a straight male and that. And that you can have healthy relationships with. And so I was like, wow, God, thank you for providing this. Like, this is great.

Like, my, you know, my conversion's already started, but literally I just had, like, a massive crush on him. Yeah. And, like. And I. But, like, I struggled.

Like, I berated myself over that and I struggled a lot with it because on the one hand I was like, I really need this friend. Like, I need these Friends. And on the other hand I was like, am I sinning every time?

Like, I mean, that's like torture almost. It's like self induced.

The ocd. The ocd. Because then I was like back to praying, asking this every 10 seconds.

Because if I looked at him and thought he's so good looking or whatever, I'd be like, oh my God, you know, I have to, you know, it was really confusing. Very difficult. Yeah, it was a really confusing time. But then at the end of that six months, I moved to Canberra to do the Living Waters course.

And the reason I moved to Canberra was because I was encouraged not to go back to Sydney because that was where all my Sydney friends were. And that would probably not help me with my, you know, separating myself from gay culture. Yeah. Even though I'd only dipped my toe in it.

Like it wasn't even. But like it was like. Yeah.

They didn't want me to dip anything else in it.

Oh, Lord, let's not go there. But, but you know, like, I. Oh, that's so great. I really just wanted to be able to concentrate on it and just go somewhere where no one knew.

Everybody would have known, but like no one knew and sort of started again and yeah, so that's what I did.

Oh.

And so, I mean, I think a lot of people have the assumption, and I know that it's starting to break down a bit now that, you know, conversion practices are. You are going and you are engaging in a program or with someone or something like that.

And so, and we know now, like, we know that that's not the case, that a lot of conversion practices are self induced and are internal and all of that sort of thing. And so how long would you say you were engaging in these practices, like.

Internally and externally for?

It's really hard to know. So I mean, my journey with.

I like to, to explain first and I think it's really important to explain first, particularly with all the stuff that comes out of America, like in pop culture and everything about conversion therapy. Yes, it's really important. And I'm, I'm talking from an Australian perspective here.

Yeah.

Even though this would be true for other places, but I'll leave it with just Australia. You know, conversion practices, conversion practices have looked different at different times in history. Yeah.

So we don't need to go into what it used to look like. We know that castration, all those things were part of it. Yeah. So conversion practices have looked different.

What doesn't change is the ideology that underpins those practices. And the ideology is essentially.

And this has been backed up by the amazing research that came out of Victoria that was done over several years, World first, too, because it really looked at that ideology.

So most studies and most sort of academic papers and things had looked at the practices themselves and the impact of the practices, but this was like, no, let's talk about the ideology. Yeah. And that's really important because the ideology is essentially. It's nuanced and it's.

It can be complex, but essentially, LGBT people are broken or disordered or somehow their sexuality or gender identity is not. Is not right. It's not a God. It's. And I'm not talking about sin. Yeah. Not talking about sin. I mean, something is not natural. Not natural.

Not of the natural order. Yeah. You know, so that's number one. Number two, therefore, it can or should be healed, changed, or suppressed. Yeah. Number three, your LGBTQness is.

Has cause, and the cause of it is negative.

Yeah.

Now, those causes can be a whole range of things. Some people think it might be a demon. Some people think that it's because you were. You were subject to trauma as a child.

Some people think it's because your father or mother was abusive or because they left you or abandoned you or whatever it is, it has a negative causation. Yeah. Right. So.

And so the idea is, if we tinker around in there and work out exactly what went wrong and what it was that caused this problem, we can be healed or fixed or changed, or we can suppress it, and we can suppress it more easily or whatever it is. But there's this. That's basically that underpins the vast majority of conversion practices, this ideology. And so, for me, I. I knew.

Knew that in my Christian world, gay people were broken at. I mean, I want to say the age of seven. Yeah. Like, I knew that. I. I just knew and I knew that, you know, they were disordered somehow.

They weren't natural. They were not normal. You know, so that was the start of me kind of being indoctrinated with this ideology.

Yeah.

Fast forward to when I was 12 and I overheard that conversation about demons. And I already know that I'm broken. I already know that I'm disordered and not normal and that something's wrong with me. And so now I have a.

Now I know the cause. It could be a demon, you know. Yeah.

And I get a little bit older and I start to, to read some more materials and I start to engage with people online who tell me, oh, what's your relationship with your father like? Maybe that's why, you know.

And so what happened with me was I was a young teenager and I was already being encouraged to unravel the fabric of my childhood, of my, my home, of my family, and to really just pull at this thread that was ever unwinding and undoing everything to try and find where's the stitch that was wrong? Where's the bit that really stuffed me up? You know, Was it Dad? Was it something that mum did? Was it because Mum.

I mean, I remember when I was going to, you know, at one night session that I was at, they, they said that it was suggested that if your mother didn't breastfeed you, that was an abandonment and that could cause an abandonment wound. Yeah. You know, and I remember calling up my mom saying, did you breastfeed me?

You know, you know, you know, so you start engaging with these materials and suddenly you've got, you've got heaps of causation, you've got heaps of reasons that you could be. Because it's all. And it's all rubbish, of course, because it's all part of pop psychology from decades ago or it's just made up crap.

But, you know, it's.

So you, you start to really unravel and try and dig around to find the problem that can therefore either be fixed or can be examined or can be, whatever, suppressed. And so I was doing that at a young age. I was doing that at 14, 15, but really intensely doing it when I started at Living Waters. Yeah.

At the age of 19.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I can't even remember your question.

That's all right, me neither. I don't remember the question once it's out of my mouth.

I have so many questions because I want to know about Living Waters and like, I want to get to the good stuff. I want to talk about like, like, you know, you finding space to affirm your sexuality and the advocacy and all of that sort of stuff.

Yeah.

But also I want to know about Living Waters.

Well, look, honestly, it's probably the least interesting part, I reckon, because Living Waters was a six month program and it was once a week. We met, we. I've got my. I should have brought my book here anyway. Have a big manual. Do you still have it? I've still got it. A Living Waters manual.

And basically it's full of all of like what I would call conversion ideology. Yeah. Just all of it. And so every week we would have to read a chapter beforehand. There was homework to do, so questions and things.

We'd come, we would. There'd be praise and worship and then we. We'd have a talk by someone who would be talking around the chapter that we'd been.

Yeah.

Delving into. And then. And like, honestly, some of the things that I heard it's. And like I was taking it so seriously. And I look back and I'm like, really? Really?

But then we would, we'd separate into boy and girl groups with a couple of leaders and we would then talk about. We'd go around the circle talking about how we had stuffed up that week. Yeah. Or how we. Whatever. And it was. I found it really frustrating because.

And I don't say this with any pride at all, but like I never had anything to say because I was so, like, I was incredibly strict with myself.

Yeah.

The OCD would have at that point. I did not even look at guys that could be deemed attractive.

I had stopped or I was having trouble watching television because what if someone, like, if someone walks in with their shirt off, that's going to be a big problem. So I was really careful about screening what I was watching. I was very like, I only had Christian friends again.

So I'd sort of gone back into this Christian bubble and like my celibacy was complete celibacy. I don't need to go into that. But it was complete celibacy. Yeah. And it was like that for years. Yeah.

And so I would go into these group things and every week it was like going around the circle and it'd come to me and I'd say, I really don't know. Like, I feel like I'm supposed to have something to say here, but I don't. Like, I know that I'm still gay. That's all it is.

But I'm trying everything to change it. And you know, and so we talk about things but. And then we'd be anointed with oil and prayed over. But I, you know, there's a couple of.

I do remember the distress of some of the other guys that were in the group when they would be confessing.

Yeah.

Slip ups as they called them or whatever. And just the shame that they had.

And at the time, I'm ashamed to say now that I would judge and sort of be like, oh, they obviously don't want to be healed. Do you know what I mean? Because I'D be like, I'm doing everything. You know, you guys come here every week and you've stuffed up.

Like, you know, I didn't say that, but that was my, my thought process was like, I am doing this 100% and God's gonna, God is gonna heal me, you know. But looking back, the shame that these guys felt. Oh. And like, at the time I thought they were big things, but now I'm like, they were such nothings.

Like they were nothing.

Yeah.

You know, and the stress and the, the self hatred and everything, you know, And I have to also say this. The leaders of Living Waters, I think had good intentions. And I do say that.

I know that some people will not like me to say that, but in my ex, my Living Waters experience, they weren't gay, they weren't ex gay. They were straight men who had gone to Living Waters for other reasons. Because Living Waters wasn't just an ex gay ministry.

It also, it was about broken sexuality, which also included, according to them, you know, cheating and like whatever else. Yeah. Sex addiction, whatever else.

Pornography, that sort of thing.

Yeah, pornography. So, so these, these leaders were, they really did care about me and they believed that they were doing the right thing.

They really believed that they were going to help me be free, you know, when in actual fact what was happening was I was getting bound up further and further and further the whole time, as I assume everybody else was. So yeah, it was, but that's basically all it was. Yeah.

And so, but, and this, this is what I mean by when I say the practice, that itself wasn't the damaging part, it was the ideology that I was exposed to, but it was the fact that I'd been exposed to it for such a long time before that that I was then ready to just eat it all up. You know, I had, I was primed for it like from a such a young age. I had already absorbed it all. I believed it all. And so I was, you know, very self.

Yeah, well, and like people say, oh, why shouldn't, why shouldn't adults be allowed to choose to do this?

And I'm, I always say, because the only reason, the only reason an adult would choose to go through conversion practices because they have been doused in an ideology that, that tells them that they're broken and that they need to be fixed or that they need to suppress something or that they need to do this. And they believe it, you know, over time, they absorb it.

And I'm also aware that not everyone that, that hears conversion ideology absorbs it the same way.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, it's always amazed me.

You know, I've met, over the years now, I've met a number of Christian queer people who, you know, they say, I, I, I'm not a survivor of conversion practices. And I say, okay, but you grew up with the ideology, didn't you?

I said, yeah, but it just never stuck, you know, And I, you know, when I was older, I just, I just left, I just left the church and I sort of thought, far out. It really, There is a, there is a difference.

You know, some people, unfortunately, I'm one of them, they hear these things and like, for whatever reason, it's true and they absorb it and the things they're hearing are about them. Yeah. You know, I'm broken. I, so I started to see myself through this lens.

Yeah.

And then there's other kids that might hear this stuff for five, six, seven years and they turn 16 and they go, you know what? I don't want any of this. And they leave and they go and be happy and queer and whatever, you know, it's amazing to me.

Yeah.

And like even people who have gone through conversion practices or conversion therapy, who maybe their parents wanted them to go and made them go, but it's like some people didn't absorb the messaging in that way. Yeah. And those people are better off mentally, of course, than those who, for whom the message is really stuck and sunk in. Yeah.

You know, but it's a very interesting, it's so interesting. Like. Yeah, anyway, forget what I was talking about.

It's okay.

I mean, I love, this is why I like having casual conversations with people because we get to just jump around and there's no like, yes, linear need for it to follow a structure.

Yeah.

You said that Living Waters was the least interesting part of that. Why did we say that?

Oh, because look. Yeah, look, there's parts of my story that probably people would think, oh my gosh, this can't be real. Like, honestly, this what? It's so colorful.

It's so ridiculous. I, like, I have had some really weird experiences. In my Christian life. Yeah.

Part of that was, you know, after leaving Living Waters, I, about a year or two later, I joined a Christian ministry that was a band, quite a well known Christian band. And my journey as part of that, as someone who was still putting themselves through conversion practices and really, you know, was wild. Yeah.

Was wild. And I, you know, part of me is still frightened to talk about it because I don't want to anger people and I don't want to, you know, but it was.

It was. Yeah. Yeah. I hope that one day I can. And that I'll be able to talk about it more openly. But it just. Yeah, Yeah. And, you know, there's other.

You know, I mean, I. I tried everything. I really did try everything that I could get my hands on to. To change.

I tried, you know, obviously, deliverance ministry, which is kind of like, you know, exorcism, but for. Oh, my gosh, Protestants. Yes. Like Protestant exorcism. Yeah. Which, you know, of course I was scared that something was going to happen. Nothing did.

But, like, I. I remember being on the road with this band and, like, I would, if we were, particularly if we were at a Pentecostal church, because I thought they believe in healing. They believe in, like, whatever. So I. I would write anonymous prayer requests about myself. I didn't write my name or anything, just anonymous.

Pop them into the thing so that I could make sure that I was getting prayer from every church that we went to. We got it. We went to so many churches. And so, like, I would do that every now and then. I'd just. To, you know, whatever. But my OCD was nuts.

I was like, it's. It's like my OCD got a hundred times worse with the conversion practices because it. I suddenly I was, like, so hyper vigilant.

Like, ocd, it makes you hyper vigilant about things. You know, you're hyper vigilant about, I don't know, the way that you're. The way you move, the. The. The number of times you step that whatever.

And so I became my hyper vig turned to. To have, like a. It was about sin and it was about. It was about sexuality. I was. I thought.

I felt very deeply that my sexuality was so broken and so wrong that. That anything sexual or anything that could be remotely, like, related to attraction or, you know, whatever was. Was evil and Was from Satan.

And so I became really uncomfortable with my own body without being tmi. I. I remember I. So weird. I had ocd. Right. So I wanted to shower twice a day.

But I also struggled very much showering because it would mean I would have to touch my body. Yeah. And I was often, like, terrified that I was somehow sinning by washing myself. Yeah. You know, not doing anything else, just washing myself.

And, like, I. So I would be, you know, hyper vigilant about how I did that and, like, all sorts of things. And I. Yeah. Yeah. It was like I was really in a prison.

Like, it was really. It was like being in a prison and I was trapped by my own mind.

And I. I do feel that that was really made very strong by conversion practices and the ideology that I'd sort of grown up with and that I'd absorbed. I remember one of the things, actually, I wrote a. A short story for Lucas Wilson's collection of Survivor. It's so good.

Lucas was on the podcast.

Not too long. Yeah.

Yeah.

And so when I wrote the story, I didn't want to write something that was about some sort of. Like, I could have written about exorcism.

I could have written about anything, but I didn't want to do that because I was like, it's not about the practices. I want to focus on something that's not shock horror.

So I was like, I'm just going to write about my experience as part of that band and just focus on one evening. That was basically. The story I wrote was basically a typical, you know, experience that I was having on the road. And I wrote about being.

Being on stage and being, like, you know, celebrated and sort of everyone really enjoyed what we were doing and sort of, I guess, saw us as, like, great Christians and like, we were these young, young people that were so passionate about Jesus or whatever.

But I. I remember vividly getting off the stage often and looking around at the church and just looking at the young people that were my age at the church and how free they were. They were. You know, they'd be guys with their girlfriends, and they'd be draped over each other, and they'd be.

You know, they weren't scared of their sexuality in the way I was. They were free to, you know, be. You know, be with each other. They were free to hold hands. They were free.

I wasn't free to do any of that, and I was scared of that. And I. I remember looking around several times and just feeling so alone because there was no way that I could connect with any of these people.

And my other bandmates were so. They were all so personable and I could be as well. But, like, I. Towards the end of my time, I was really struggling. Yeah.

And I just remember watching them, and they would connect with the cool guys at church and, like, whatever. And I. I just couldn't. I didn't know how. I was very awkward around other guys.

I didn't like to talk to them because just in case I would sin and, like, set myself back.

And I remember this is what I wrote the story about, was I would often excuse myself from conversations and go and hide in our bus, our tour bus, and I'd be sitting there And I'd be obsessively praying, asking God to take it away, asking God to forgive me, asking God, you know, to just, you know, if I'm gonna do this gay. This ex gay thing, and if you're not gonna heal me yet, how do I live like this? How do I still have friends? How do I still connect with other people?

Because I was really losing it. I was losing it. And anyway, when I left the group, I. I ended up leaving the band. And it was very difficult to leave for a number of reasons.

I knew I had to, and I wanted to desperately, but, like, there was a lot of legalistic reasons and whatever else that I was. I had stayed for over two years and.

And I was really unhappy and came out of that, went back home, moved back in with my parents, and I tried to find a church. And I just. I was like, I can't connect with people. Like, I really. It's like I'd lost in.

In becoming so hyper vigilant and so obsessively asexual and obsessively, like, I guess, repelling males in general. I couldn't, like. I didn't know how to, like, make friends.

And I was back where I was when I was, you know, 15 and walking into that high school and not really getting it, not knowing what to do. And I remember watching a movie, actually, when I came out, I was like, I need to start watching movies again.

Because I'd been watching Little House on the Prairie, like, a lot because I knew that it had nothing in it that was gonna, like, you know, that's crazy. Literally, I watched that, like, a lot, because I was.

Yeah, so I watched Moulin Rouge, and I was in tears by the end of it because I. I was like, I want love. Like, I want that. I want to fall in love, even if it's only for a short time, even if I die, even if the person does. I just.

I have to experience it, you know?

And I actually went back to the church that I'd gone to youth group at, and I spoke to the pastor who had introduced me to Ron Brookman, and I talked to him about it, and he sort of said, oh, well, you know, it's probably not a good idea for you to watch those movies. And I. I left. And I felt so deflated and empty because I thought, if that's the answer, I'm already doing it.

You know, if that's the answer, I'm already doing it. And I'd had a few people of late who. I remember she's My best friend, actually, but we were in the band together.

I remember walking through Melbourne with her and towards the end of my time with that band and, you know, she knew, like, my struggle and she knew how. How hard I tried. And she said to me one day, she said, so how are you going with the whole gay thing? You know? And I said, well, I'm still gay.

Like, I'm ex gay, but I still struggle with the fact that I'm gay. And she said, but have you really given it to God? Like, have you really actually given it to God? Like.

Like, I feel like there must be part of you that's holding onto it because if it wasn't, then he'd take it, you know, you just need to really give it to him. And I was speechless because I didn't know anyone who had tried harder and there was no way I could have tried harder.

And I was so upset that, like, this person who had been there for this journey, for a lot of this journey, and who knew my story and who, like, you know, was thinking maybe Chris kind of still wants to be gay and that's why God hasn't healed him, you know. And so that, and then the. This pastor and like, just a few interactions really, like, were weighing very heavily on me.

And I was like, I know that I have done everything that I was supposed to do, everything I've been told to do, I've done. I've done more than that.

I've tried to bribe God by giving all the money that I had into, you know, like, you know, I've tried, you know, repeated praying, repeated deliverance ministries, repeatedly, like, just trying to starve it out of myself by, like, not looking at anything, you know. And I was still undeniably same sex attracted. And I just kind of. I think I kind of cracked a little bit and I went a bit.

I kind of went a bit nuts and. Not nuts, no, I won't say I went nuts. I think I really was a shell of a person at that point. And my parents were very concerned.

Yeah, they had watched this decline from when I was a teenager and starting to do this ex gay stuff. They watched this decline, you know, over several years to this point where my mum, now, I've spoken to her a few times about it. She said.

She said to me, you know, you were like a shell of Chris.

You had stopped laughing, you'd stopped singing, which is like, if you know me, I sing constantly and everyone thinks it's beautiful except for the people that I live with. So, you know, that's how much I sing.

They live with you, so they have to just deal with it.

But, you know, like, it's. I sing constantly. Like I. I walk around work singing like, it's just. I can't help it. It's just something I've always done.

Even when I was a kid, I remember working at KFC and I'd be out the back washing the, scrubbing the things and I'd be singing at the top of my lungs because I just, I don't know, just did. But I'd stopped. Stopped singing, stopped laughing, wasn't making jokes anymore, which, again, that's like central to my character.

And like, just, I don't know, like, just I'd become not Chris, you know, and my parents had become really concerned and over a number of years, actually, and so they. My mum. My mum took me out for coffee one day and sort of said to me, listen, how are you going? You know, And I was like, yeah, I'm fine.

Because I was really closed. Like I was not an open book. Yeah. And she said, look, dad and I have been praying and we're really worried about you. You're not yourself. Yeah.

And I was like, well, I'm not supposed to be myself, you know, I'm not supposed to be myself.

And she said, well, about that, you know, we've, we've been researching and we've been doing a lot of thinking and reading over the last few years and we don't believe that anymore. I was like, what? What? And she said, you know, maybe if God hasn't healed you, it's because there's nothing wrong with you.

And you would think that that's the point where I go embrace her and go, oh, my gosh, thank you. No, I was very upset. Yeah, I imagine I was like, first of all, you guys, like, had encouraged me to do this because of you, you know, Secondly.

But secondly, I was like, do you not believe in the Bible anymore? The Bible's pretty clear about it, you know. And I went full evangelical and was like, you know, the Bible, the Bible, the Bible.

And she said, look, no, you know, anyway, long story short, my parents helped me to slowly become okay with being gay and accepting it. And at first it was very small steps, but those steps were short and fast because it was like, okay, I'm.

No, I'm not going to call myself ex gay anymore. I'm not going to lie about it. I'm going to start going to a church.

And when I go to a church, I'm not going to lie and say that, you know, I just haven't found the right person or that whatever. I'm not going to pretend that I'm interested in any of the girls. I'm just, I'm going to be honest and I'm going to say I'm actually gay. Not ex gay.

I'm gay. Yeah, that's where it started. And it wasn't.

That wasn't me going I'm going to be gay and be going around, but it was that I'm going to be honest about who I am.

As we wrap up, just a heads.

Up that this is a two part conversation.

Part two is coming next week in the next episode and we'll pick up right where we left off. Thanks for listening to beyond the Surface.

If this episode resonated, challenged you, or named something you've struggled to put words to, I'm really glad you found your way here. You'll find ways to connect, learn more, and explore further in the show. Notes as always, you are good.

You have always been good and your story matters always.