This week we're recasting Preston's conversation with Dr. Anna Simons from May 2023. Anna retired as a Professor of Defense Analysis at the Naval Postgraduate School. She holds a PhD in Social Anthropology from Harvard University and an A.B. from Harvard College.

She is the author of Networks of Dissolution: Somalia Undone and The Company They Keep: Life Inside the U.S. Army Special Forces. She is also the co-author of The Sovereignty Solution: A Commonsense Approach to Global Security. Her fieldwork began in Somalia in the late 1980s, embedded with a Special Forces mobile training team, years before most Americans had heard of the country. This work marked the start of a career devoted to studying the ties that bind operators together and the forces that pull them apart.

Preston and Anna range widely: why assessment and selection should simulate the actual conditions operators will face rather than test for a generic standard; "warrior" branding and tribal emblems, and what it signals when a unit needs more mystique than its mission alone provides; the difference between interchangeability and neurodiversity, and why teams need both depending on whether the problem in front of them is technical or adaptive; and the concept of communitas.

Asked what advice she'd give the people responsible for assessing, selecting, and educating MCTs today, Anna recommends holding people to high standards and communicating your expectations. She also makes a book recommendation of her own: Chris Miller's Soldier Secretary, which she read cover to cover the day it was published in 2023.

If you find value in this discussion, the best way to support our work and stay up to date on future episodes is to subscribe and leave us a quick rating or review. It helps us reach more people who need to hear these conversations.

Welcome to the Teamcast.

2

I'm Dr.

3

Preston Cline, director of the

Mission Critical Team Institute.

4

Here, we discuss all things

mission-critical teams.

5

These are teams of four to 12 people

indigenously trained and educated who

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solve rapidly emerging complex adaptive

problem sets where the consequence of

7

failure is death or catastrophic loss.

8

With my colleagues and our guests,

we bring you insights from combat

9

zones to emergency rooms, dedicated to

improving the success, survivability,

10

and sustainability of these teams.

11

We grapple with how to prepare for

future events and how to develop

12

language and frameworks to transfer

critical, often unspoken, knowledge.

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Whether you're on a mission-critical

team or not, we aim to bring you

14

the broadest range of topics and

guests as possible to help prepare

15

you to perform when it matters most.

16

Thank you for joining us, and

hope you enjoy the Teamcast

17

Hi,

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everyone.

19

I

20

am Dr.

21

Preston Cline, and

today, I am joined by Dr.

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Anna Simons,

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who retired

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as a professor of defense analysis

at the Naval Postgraduate School.

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Prior to teaching at NPS, she was a

professor of anthropology at UCLA.

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She holds a PhD in social anthropology

from Harvard University and is the

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primary author of two influential

books, Networks of Dissolution: Somalia

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Undone, and The Company They Keep:

Life Inside the US Army Special Forces.

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She's also the co-author of The

Sovereignty Solution: A Commonsense

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Approach to Global Security.

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Anna's focus has been on conflict

intervention in the military from

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an anthropological perspective.

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Her work examines ties that bind

members of groups together, as well

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as divides which drive groups apart.

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Some things we think of a lot about

with mission critical teams, I first

36

met Anna back in 2013 at Fort Bragg

when we were both presenting to a group

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for General Cleveland at the John F.

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Kennedy Center.

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I was a few years into my doctoral work

at that period and was fascinated by the

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work she had done on the anthropological

perspective of her approach to looking

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at how Special Forces came together,

um, worked together, et cetera.

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And Anna, thanks, and

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welcome to

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the Teamcast.

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Anna: Thank you, Preston.

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Preston: Where are you calling in from?

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Anna: I'm retired and

living up in Montana.

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Before, we did all of this way

before Yellowstone made this

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the go

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to place.

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Preston: Okay

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so you went away.

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Now you have all these tourists.

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Anna: Yes.

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Where we are, and, uh, it's a little

bit of a story, I used to pretend I

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was a real academic, and I could take

the summers and come up here because

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Monterey, California, has a very

un-American kind of summer where you

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have to dress in fleece all the time.

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And Monterey also happens to

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be probably

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the worst place for freshwater

fishing in the United States.

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Preston: Okay.

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Anna: So we would flee up here to Montana.

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And so this is where, as

soon as I retired, this is

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where we knew we were moving.

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Preston: Got it.

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So let's go back and

start at the beginning.

68

How does somebody who gets a

PhD in anthropology from Harvard

69

University end up walking the,

the woods of North Carolina with a

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bunch of, of Special Forces guys?

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Anna: Interestingly, I

didn't have my PhD yet.

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I didn't ha- have my doctorate.

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I was doing my field work, my dissertation

work, actually, in Somalia, before

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anybody's ever heard of the country.

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In fact, I came back partway through,

and people asked me how Samoa was going,

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because that's- That's what people knew.

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But Somalia wasn't a

household word at the time.

78

The short version of the story

is there happened to be a

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MTT, a mobile training team.

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It was the last one that was

in Somalia before, as things

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were beginning to fall apart.

82

And it was three NCOs and an

officer, and that was my first

83

interaction with Special Forces.

84

And fast-forward just a little bit,

I ended up marrying one of them,

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have been with him ever since.

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But that was my introduction to SF.

87

I had read Griffiths', the Brotherhood of

War series just before I went to Somalia.

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That was sort of accidental.

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So I had a little bit of an idea of

who I thought these guys were, but it

90

wasn't until I actually got to know

them in Somalia that I found them to

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be a lot more interesting than the

press about them seemed to imply.

92

They were extraordinarily generous

and helpful and very smart, and this

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was during the Rambo era, and they

were nothing like the caricatures

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of Green Berets that you saw.

95

It was sort of like the equivalent back

then of all the stuff about SEALs today,

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or a lot of the stuff about SEALs today.

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Yep.

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I mean, this was in the late, late

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' Preston: 80s.

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So this is before the Battle of Mogadishu.

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Anna: Yes, well before.

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So this was 1988, 1989.

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Preston: Okay, got

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Anna: it.

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Um, and it's not to say…

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And the, the four guys who were

over there when I met them, they

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were there after another four guys

who'd been there before them who

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actually were fairly badly behaved.

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And, you know, for anybody who's familiar

with some of the stuff that's in the

110

news these days about what guys can get

up to overseas, that group, they were

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poster boys for that sort of bad behavior.

112

So early on I saw bad stuff, but then

I also saw extraordinarily good stuff.

113

Preston: That's also been my experience

when I go to the teams, is the majority

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of teams that I interact with, especially

in, in military special operations, tend

115

to be really smart guys that tend to

be self, very self-deprecating and not

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acknowledge that they're very smart.

117

And there's a minority of bad actors

that are still out there, and are

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gonna be because of the nature of, of

the job and who we're selecting for

119

and the process and everything else.

120

I'm not sure we can ever escape

that, but I think what we can do

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is try to reduce it to the margins.

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Anna: Yes, no, absolutely.

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I totally agree.

124

And so this is one of the things that's

fascinated me from the very beginning.

125

Well, let me back up half a second and

say I'm always struck by how little

126

attention gets paid to the military.

127

United States military writ large

is the greatest sort of social

128

experiment that's ever been run.

129

Right.

130

And there should be a lot more

social scientists over the years

131

who would've been interested,

and you've got these identically

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organized units, multiples of them.

133

And so you could really study human

behavior and dynamics and the nature of

134

dynamics and what makes for a tight team,

what makes for a, a sort of dysfunctional

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team, what makes for a team that sticks

to the mission, what makes for…

136

I mean, all of these things.

137

This is the greatest lab that's ever been

invented for looking at human behavior.

138

And the thing that's always struck me

139

is, the

140

military gets the physics of it and

pays a lot of attention to we need

141

two of this type, two medics or

two communications guys or two…

142

The structure.

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The structure is very well thought out.

144

But what nobody can do so far, and I

don't actually believe anybody's ever

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gonna be able to do this, is get the

chemistry exactly right in advance.

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And the chemistry on a team among a

bunch of guys, and we can talk about

147

what the introduction of women might

do when we get, you know, when we,

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when it comes to rituals later on.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Anna: The chemistry among a bunch

of guys is absolutely essential

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to the team actually being able to

cohere and do a phenomenal job or

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cohere and go off the rails, right?

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Yeah.

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Or any one of a number of other things.

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And so where the critical mass is on

the team, m- sometimes it's just a

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couple of guys who are the ringleaders.

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Yeah.

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And it doesn't mean that they

represent the formal hierarchy.

159

There are always these informal

hierarchies in any kind of group setting.

160

And so to me, this is the really

fascinating thing about teams

161

and small groups or small units.

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Preston: Yeah, one

163

Of the things I've always said

about the military and medicine

164

actually, emergency medicine, trauma

medicine, is that those two entities,

165

those two social organizations

encounter all social change first.

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So everything that we are gonna be

talking about, whether it be women

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or race or religion or class, those

organizations will have to negotiate

168

first because of the nature of the work

they're doing and who's populating them.

169

And I always, to your point about

the lab, I think there's a lot

170

that we can learn about w- the good

and the bad of that messy process,

171

what worked and what didn't.

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In that particular context, not

everything is, is extrapolated.

173

But the other thing w- that you said,

which I always found, I still find really

174

interesting is in many of the mission

critical teams, the selection process

175

is an individual selection process, but

it's an individual selection process for

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people who are destined to work on teams.

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And there are some that do

better at this than others.

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There are some that, that are ingrained

in a team mindset, and there are others

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who are still selecting individuals.

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And I and I've always been fascinated

about that, and I've always thought,

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I wonder from an anthropological

point of view how you think about

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that, let's call it disparity.

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Anna: No, that's a great question, and

then there's a, there's a important

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postscript to all of this also for

Special Forces, and so, um, make me

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say something about that in a second.

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The other thing that's a little bit, I

don't know whether it's perverse or not,

187

and I don't know whether counterintuitive

is the right word either, but even

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selections that are choosing people

who can work on teams, that's not the

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team they're gonna end up working on.

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Yeah.

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Preston: Yep.

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Anna: So, so you're being chosen for

your flexibility and your ability to

193

work with 9 or 10 or 4 or 5 or whatever

the number is, other individuals.

194

And again, it comes back

to that chemistry thing.

195

Sometimes even during selection, that's

gonna work really well just because of

196

the luck of the draw in terms of the

people that you're being selected with

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or that you're being assessed alongside.

198

And sometimes you're screwed from

the be- very beginning if something

199

is off about that dynamic, if the

dynamic actually involves you being

200

assessed alongside other people.

201

So it's a little bit weird, but clearly…

202

i've always said this about selection.

203

I still think, in fact, I was having a

conversation with my husband last night.

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I still think for what BUD/S Navy SEAL

selection used to select for, and maybe

205

does again, which is guys who are capable

of being in the water by themselves

206

at night when there's sharks, and they

can still function absolutely fine.

207

That selection or assessment puts guys

in that situation, and that's what SEALs

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used to have to be capable of doing.

209

And other assessments and selections

don't necessarily put people into the

210

kind of environment in which they're

actually going to be working later

211

as part of assessment and selection,

and I think that's a huge mistake.

212

Maybe SEALs were not cut out to be

advisors over in Afghanistan or Iraq

213

or any of the rest of that stuff.

214

That's not what they were selected for.

215

That's not what assessment assessed

them for, and yet that's what they

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ended up getting stuck doing, and

that's a, that's a total misfit.

217

So I guess if I try to say this more

succinctly, assessment and selection

218

has to come as close as possible to

reproducing or simulating what it is that

219

it's actually assessing and selecting for,

and not all assessments and selections

220

do that, and I think that's a mistake.

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Preston: Well, that's really interesting.

222

It might be related to the

postscript that you were gonna

223

comment on with the Special Forces.

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Anna: So for everybody who may not

be aware, there are all of these

225

distinctions among all the Special

Operations Forces communities.

226

And Special Forces, commonly called Green

Berets, have always prided themselves,

227

touted themselves, and historically been

oriented toward working with foreign

228

forces, either government forces and

foreign militaries or insurgents and

229

surrogates and proxies and others.

230

So that dimension of being able to work

with non-Americans is really important.

231

And there are huge differences

if you go around the world.

232

And people in general have affinities

for s- different sets of societies.

233

So there's some people who are wired

to be able to work much better because

234

they like Asians more than they,

say, they would like, I don't know,

235

people in Latin America or Northern

Europeans or whoever else it is.

236

And that's also never been taken into

account in terms of, this business of fit.

237

Who are people being assessed

and selected to be able to fit?

238

Is it to fit with 11

other Americans on a team?

239

Is it to fit with 11 other Americans on

a team who can also work with Somalis

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or Sudanese or Syrians or Burmese?

241

That's never really been assessed

and selected, and to me that's

242

always been a crying shame.

243

Because as I say, the closer you

can get assessment and selection

244

to what it is that you're assessing

and selecting for, the fewer

245

problems you end up having later.

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Preston: Oh, yeah, 100% agreed, and

there's an added element to this, which

247

is what Green Berets were originally,

as you pointed out earlier- Right.

248

Yep … originally designed to do, right?

249

Foreign internal defense- Yep, yep,

yep … or training operators, they

250

haven't been doing for 20 years primarily.

251

I mean, they still s- Let

me, let me s- restate that.

252

That's not true.

253

They c- they have continued to do that,

but in addition, a big part of what

254

they've been doing is direct action.

255

And so there's a whole- Yep, yep,

yep … generation of people who define

256

themselves, their, uh, lived experience

as Green Berets, as people that do

257

direct action, and when they're told to

go back to this other role, like SEALs

258

being told to go back to the water,

they're like, "Who are you talking to?

259

That's not who we are and what we do,"

without realizing, yeah, actually it is

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Anna: Yes.

261

Yes.

262

No, absolutely.

263

Well, I mean, the irony is, Preston, that,

um, in the early '90s, you know, I went

264

and I talked to a friend of mine, had

me come talk to people at RAND, and it

265

was all about the DA fid schizophrenia.

266

So even back then before 9/11, direct

action is always the sexy, easy thing

267

that it's the default for anybody who

signs up for the combat arms because

268

it involves direct action combat.

269

And you know, we could go down our entire

chain talking about how has Special

270

Forces recruited and what has been

advertised and what is it used to sort

271

of appeal to young, not just y- young

men now, but presumably young women.

272

It's all the ninja, Velcro,

jumping out of planes, shooting

273

guns, all the rest of that stuff.

274

And initially, that was sort of,

um, I don't wanna say it was ever an

275

afterthought when Special Forces was

first stood up, but it was really

276

sabotage, sneakiness, wiliness.

277

How do you create resistance and

stay behind forces or stay behind

278

p- or populations in Eastern Europe?

279

It had a very different origin than

what has transpired over not just

280

the last two decades, but I would say

even the last three decades, and it's

281

because this direct action stuff is,

I mean, I call it combat's catnip for

282

anybody who joins the combat arms.

283

Now, granted, a lot of guys

who've seen a lot of combat,

284

"Okay, that's enough already.

285

I don't need to see anymore.

286

I don't want to see anymore."

287

That then should potentially

become your recruiting pool.

288

Out of that group that doesn't need to

make sure that they actually are in a

289

firefight, i- if they haven't been in one

before, because it has a warping effect.

290

Preston: Yep.

291

And, uh, you know, it, it's

also what I often think about

292

pararescue or combat controllers.

293

You know, at the most elite level

what makes them unique is that

294

they're not actually selected

to work on an intact team.

295

They will not leave US on their own team.

296

They will always be seconded to another

team, and their currency is their

297

ability, doesn't matter how good of

a paramedic they are, for example,

298

as a PJ, if they're not able to gain

peer acceptance within their receiving

299

team, maybe SEALs or Green Berets or

whoever, they're no use to the country.

300

And that's a very different model

than an intact team- Right … of a

301

platoon or whatever it is for SEALs or

Green Berets or Rangers that all know

302

each other, can finish each other's

sentences, and go abroad together.

303

And to your point about selection,

it creates very different people.

304

Anna: Yeah, no, that's interesting.

305

And I, I've only known those

guys in the classroom, so I've

306

never spent any time really.

307

I mean, I've seen them a little bit

overseas with ODAs and things like

308

that, with Special Forces teams.

309

But I don't know th- I don't know

that community very well at all.

310

But no, I mean, I've heard them say

also they have to be capable of so much

311

other stuff in addition to what you're

talking about, which is this business

312

of how do you almost instantaneously

fit in and earn enough respect that

313

you're one of the rest of the group?

314

Preston: Yeah.

315

I recently was having a conversation with

General Sontag, who was running the Green

316

Berets for a period of years where, after

General Cleveland, where you and I met.

317

And one of the things that, that

I was asking him about was some

318

of the myths versus realities.

319

And basically, the point I made was

when the Special Forces Qualification

320

Course, FQC, SFQC, was first started

321

And it went from 16 weeks to 16

months by the late '80s or late '90s.

322

And when you look at something that's

large and you're originally selecting

323

for 1,500 people, and now there's 15,000

Green Berets, that creates its own

324

problem set because that many people-

Yeah … just human dynamics, you're

325

gonna get a lot of different subgroups.

326

But the biggest problem I was trying

to point out, what I, I'm trying to

327

get to here is there's a famous song,

The Ballad of the Green Beret, right?

328

And one of the lines is, "Of

every 100 people that, that

329

apply, only three make it."

330

Well, that's a 3% acceptance rate.

331

And even if that's myth, and

that actually was never true,

332

but let's just say it's true.

333

The number of people you'd have to-

Mm … select for 15,000 people at a 3%

334

acceptance rate is actually not possible.

335

But why I'm bringing all this up is not

because anyone claiming it is, except

336

for there's a group of alumni Green

Berets who actually believe all that.

337

They believe their experiences

that were direct combat.

338

They believe they have

high, that high selection.

339

Anything that is not that is a

betrayal, even though it was never true.

340

And so with a group this big, you're

always balancing the sort of truths and

341

facts against the myths and legends.

342

Anna: Yes, and there are a lot

of myths and r- and legends, and

343

the whole lionization of SOF over

the last two decades has quite

344

honestly not been good for it.

345

Preston: That's right.

346

Anna: You know, there are

many arguments to be made.

347

I was gonna do this at the, at, at, at

the end, 'cause I just read it yesterday.

348

It just arrived, 'cause it

just got published yesterday.

349

Chris Miller's book, Soldier Secretary.

350

Preston: Oh, yeah, yeah.

351

Anna: Um, it's the fastest

read on the planet.

352

I mean, I literally read

the whole book yesterday.

353

It's great in many, many ways.

354

Or first, because it's very

readable, and he's quite…

355

He's very honest, and he reflects

back on b- sort of pre-9/11, and

356

then the 20 years after 9/11, and

then his most recent experiences.

357

So anyway, I highly recommend it.

358

But by the end, he comes to the same

conclusion that I think anybody who

359

is really honest about SOF comes

to, which is, he doesn't go as

360

far as I would go, but it's gotta

be, it's gotta be much smaller.

361

I would say it needs

to be rethought again.

362

He talks about restarting sort of

intelligence agencies and stuff like that.

363

Basically restarting them, if not from

scra- well, starting them from scratch.

364

But I think it's always an interesting

thought experiment, and I tried to

365

get guys to write theses about this

they were post-graduate school.

366

If you were to construct a special

operations entity from scratch today,

367

in the 21st century, post-Cold War, with

the existence of jihadis and terrorism

368

and transnational crime and all the rest

of it, what would it look like today?

369

If you started over from scratch,

how different would it look from

370

this legacy, I mean, this great

legacy set of institutions which,

371

after all now, are 70-plus years old.

372

And I don't know if reconceiving things

while they exist, you know, in other

373

words, you're gonna change the clunge.

374

I don't know if that's gonna

suffice for the future.

375

Preston: Yeah I also think a

great deal about this and get, get

376

asked about it pretty regularly.

377

And- I have many of the same sort

of opinions that you have on this.

378

I think we're way, way too big.

379

But it's not just the operators.

380

There's also just- Oh, right … the

sheer logistics footprint.

381

Right, right.

382

So if

383

You look at some of the special

mission units, for example, that

384

started, no kidding, with 60 or

70 people, their compounds are

385

up plus 1,500 to 2,000 people.

386

Not every one of those

people are operators.

387

In fact, most aren't.

388

Most are logistics- Right … and

enablers and supporters and government

389

service folks, but government service

folks to the point where there's

390

now a term for them, which is the

GS mafia, government service mafia.

391

And what we're seeing, and we've actually

seen it come out in the public recently

392

in some articles, where as some officers

in special operations who have tried to

393

reign in the GS mafia have been publicly

taken down in leaked newspaper articles.

394

And to your point, if we don't actually

strip this down and get rid of not only

395

the dead weight of operators that have,

that have should have retired a while

396

back or were never fit to be there, and

all of the sort of, uh, what do you call

397

them, but the, like, functionaries that

aren't actually adding to the fight.

398

Yep.

399

We're gonna drown under-

Yep … the sheer weight of it.

400

Anna: Yep.

401

No, there's so many

ironies in all of this.

402

So one of them is it's almost a

parallel to what we're seeing with

403

education systems, whether you're

talking about public education in

404

the country, any town or city you can

think of, where the administrators now

405

not only outnumber the teachers, but

they become a burden for the teachers.

406

That's right.

407

That's

408

Preston: right.

409

Anna: They're basically crapping

up the education system.

410

Yeah.

411

And so this is almost

like a weird parallel.

412

If you talk about, and so if

we go back to assessment and

413

selection for half a second, why

is there so much micromanagement?

414

Why is there so little

trust from on high- Yep

415

of actual operators?

416

Well, maybe it's because assessment and

selection is sort of bringing in some

417

people that shouldn't be brought in

because you've bumped up the numbers.

418

But if you actually- Yep … trusted

your operators and the officers who lead

419

them, what should you be able to do?

420

They should be able to operate on

their own without constantly having

421

to report back to the mothership.

422

Not only report back to the mothership,

but I can't tell you, I mean, I was

423

blown away the first time I went to

Afghanistan and was down with an ODA

424

and how much time, those guys were

spending so much time on their laptops

425

or computer screens putting together

storyboards- Yeah … and describing

426

what it is that they were doing.

427

They were spending more time

doing that nonsense than they were

428

actually out interacting with anybody

who might have been an Afghan.

429

It truly was mind-blowing to me,

and I think- From what I saw over

430

the years, it only got worse.

431

It's all about massaging the

story and making the story sort

432

of catchy and interesting, and

it's all about the narrative.

433

Well, that's a bunch of BS.

434

No, it's all about what you can actually

accomplish on the ground, which means you

435

have to be, or with other people, which

means you have to be allowed to do that,

436

which means the requirements for you to

constantly report what you're doing and

437

check in with the lawyers and everybody

else, that's just, it's all upside down.

438

It's been turned totally upside down,

and part of it is numbers, and that

439

goes back to, I mean, you know, there's

a whole feedback, set of feedback

440

loops with assessment and selection.

441

It's really sad, and

it's really detrimental.

442

W- I joked with guys recently who I talk

to and stuff still, and just did a project

443

for somebody in the OSD in the Pentagon.

444

Maybe it's time I would say that once

you retire as a general, go away.

445

Preston: Yeah.

446

Anna: Go get another life.

447

No more, I mean, you had your

chance To make changes and fixes

448

and get things the way you wanted.

449

And if you did that, great.

450

And if you weren't able to do

that you had your opportunity.

451

But I don't want to say that they're all

dead weight as well, because they aren't.

452

But let them be consulted.

453

Let the guys ask them if and when

they need some historic knowledge or

454

if and when they need some advice.

455

But for all of them to hover over SOF

still with their finger in the pie and

456

working as contractors or sitting on

boards, defense, uh, industry boards

457

and all the rest of it, it's really bad.

458

Okay, now I'm editorializing too.

459

No worries.

460

I'm sorry.

461

Preston: I will s- Not at all.

462

I would say that o- there's a couple

of different paradoxes, right?

463

And one of them is that if you look

at the Green Berets or if you look

464

at the SEALs or if you look at any

of the special operations, typically

465

the s- people that are saying, "I'm

speaking on behalf of the SEALs" are

466

people the SEALs themselves would…

467

Are the last people the SEALs

themselves would have them- Yep

468

… speaking on their behalf, right?

469

But because- Yep … they're discreet

professionals, they can't contradict it.

470

Yep.

471

So they're always- Yep, yep … the

victim of the sort of loudmouth idiot.

472

Yep.

473

And they're never allowed-

Yep … to sort of say publicly,

474

"We don't agree with any of that."

475

Yep.

476

And the truth is that a lot of special

operations have this reputation as

477

being like knuckle-dragging savages

because people are profiting off of

478

that brand, but if you go and talk to

them, most aren't actually like that.

479

They're pretty smart, they're pretty

precision, they're pretty detail-oriented,

480

and they're professionals.

481

And that always bums me out when

I listen on the news or something

482

and somebody's like, "Oh, I'm

the Navy SEAL who speaks on X."

483

I'm like, "Please stop."

484

That's, A, not true and B, not helpful.

485

The other paradox that I'm always

fascinated by, and I've seen this happen

486

now a few times in the last year or

two, much to my great sorrow, is for

487

years now, and I mean decades, the,

the instructional sort of schoolhouse

488

instructor cadre is often been treated

as the dumping ground for the people

489

they don't know what to do with.

490

So the teams don't want them,

so they go to the schoolhouse.

491

So then they do what you'd expect

them to do, which isn't really

492

great because there isn't really

a good instructor cadre course.

493

Most of it is for the conventional

military, which is not really

494

what they're trying to create.

495

And then what ends up happening

is something happens, right?

496

Something happens where a kid dies or

a kid gets injured or something, and

497

all of a sudden the easiest solution

is to shoot the cadre in the face.

498

And I'm always like, that particular

narrative, which is we're not gonna

499

actually prepare you to move from being

an operator to an instructor because

500

just because you can do something

doesn't mean you can teach something.

501

And then once you get there, by the

way, if you blow it, we're gonna,

502

we're just gonna hold you accountable

without really helping you figure out

503

how to avoid that particular problem.

504

Anna: Yes, and there are

a couple strands to that.

505

A- and one is who do you want to be

your cadre members, your instructors,

506

your assessors, and all the rest of it?

507

Do you want it to be people who teams

have sort of shuffled around because

508

they don't quite work on a team, so

they're not necessarily your be- Now,

509

they may be very talented as instructors.

510

Sometimes you get people who don't quite

fit in one place, but they're gonna

511

turn out to be great somewhere else.

512

And you know what they say about

all of us who are teachers, we're

513

teachers because we can't do, right?

514

So some people maybe can

teach better than they can do.

515

But on the whole, the history, the

legacy has always been that's where

516

you funnel people that you don't

really want around operating anymore.

517

So that's something that's not good

or healthy for an organization at all.

518

And, you know, if you go back and look

at Rangers and RASP, and the fact that

519

they have to con- they reselect, an

officer- Yeah … to go back to the

520

Ranger regiment, has to be reassessed

and reselected all over again.

521

I always thought that was a great

model, and it probably should exist

522

across the board in terms of just

because you get your Trident or just

523

because you get your tab doesn't mean

that for life you're the right person

524

anymore for that organization, and

you can sort of, a- and you can coast.

525

But To what I think is your

point or an add-on to your point,

526

Preston, you need to front-load.

527

The things that are most important to

front-load are assessment and selection

528

and how you bring people into the fold.

529

The instruction in terms of whether

it's the Q course or whether it's buds

530

or whatever it is that's gonna bring

people into the fold, nothing is more

531

important than those two sets of things

because that sets you up for success.

532

But it also means if you're strict

about getting rid of duds, I mean,

533

guys, we talk about this all the time.

534

What happens to a dud, a dud on a team?

535

Well, he goes up to the beach.

536

I mean, you know, he goes up and he works

on staff, and then he gets shuffled back

537

onto some other team who has to try to

figure out how they get rid of them.

538

And so organizations tend not to flush

people when they actually should,

539

both for their own good, but more

importantly for the organization's

540

good, if all of that makes sense.

541

Preston: Yeah, it makes, it

makes heaps and heaps of sense.

542

It brings up a lot of these things

that we're not really paying

543

attention to, and one of them…

544

let me say it this way.

545

If you go to any leader of any special

missions u- special operations unit

546

in any of the five-eye countries,

UK, Australia, New Zealand, US,

547

Canada, and you ask them the following

question If somebody does well as an

548

instructor in the schoolhouse, do they

end up becoming a better leader- Yeah

549

when they're rotated back?

550

And the answer is 100%

yes, without hesitation.

551

I've never had a leader hesitate

in answering that question.

552

They're like, "Yeah, if they come to

the schoolhouse and do well, actually

553

practice and learn how to develop others,

it necessarily makes them a better leader

554

when they return back to run a team."

555

A- any thoughts on that?

556

Anna: No, and that makes total sense.

557

And then look at how the

Marine Corps does stuff.

558

You know, the Marine Corps is brilliant

at a couple of different things.

559

More than a couple, but one of the

things it does really well is…

560

So this is a, this is a slight side note,

but it picks great people as recruiters.

561

Yeah.

562

And if you pick great people as

recruiters, then th- those recruiters

563

are likely, I mean, you know, it's

as everybody says, you choose other

564

people who are sort of like you.

565

They're gonna find quality, but

quality, more importantly, is

566

gonna be attracted to them, right?

567

Yeah.

568

They become incredibly important role

models, and they're people's first

569

interaction with the Marine Corps.

570

But the Marine Corps does the same

thing, I believe, or at least it

571

has in the past, in terms of who

it has instructing in its schools.

572

A- and it used to be, even in the

Army under certain people or under

573

certain leaders, that, you know, your

best, your most promising officers,

574

most promising NCOs went and became…

575

were sent to go instruct

at the schoolhouse.

576

And to your point, when you have to

explain something, and when you're looking

577

out, you know, this from teaching, right?

578

And you've got challenging students or

challenging candidates who are sitting

579

out there asking you very deep, without

even realizing it sometimes, they're

580

very deep questions to which you don't

have the answer, it causes you to have

581

to think about things very differently.

582

It also gives guys time to synthesize

and reflect in a very different

583

way than if they're constantly,

okay, you're operating, you're

584

doing all of this stuff, and you're

going over, so you're deploying.

585

You're coming home, you're with

your family for a while, and

586

you're getting ready to redeploy.

587

It's like, it's a very important

break also because it allows

588

people to stretch different sets of

muscles, which are very important.

589

I agree with you, especially for leading.

590

Preston: One of the big sorrows that I've

had is that what's happened is there w-

591

once upon a time, and maybe it was never

true, maybe it's just been a myth, but

592

it used to be that when you were doing

many deployments, especially over the

593

last 20 years, and you rotated back to

do a tour at the schoolhouse, it meant

594

that you'd get more time, exactly like

you said, to reflect, to spend time

595

with your family, et cetera, et cetera.

596

And what ended up happening was it was

instead- The opposite happens, meaning

597

that you were coming in and they were

having you work such long hours and

598

such long weeks that it was actually

worse because while you were living at

599

home, you were only coming in to, like,

change clothes, take a shower, get some

600

sleep, and get back out again, and it

was almost worse than being deployed.

601

And one of the things that I- I'm

constantly frustrated about is the

602

tempo, the unnecessary tempo that some

of these folks run their contracts

603

Anna: Yep.

604

Uh, so two comments on the tempo.

605

Well, one of the reasons why…

606

So it's a great point about the

cadre and instructors and stuff

607

like that, but that's because the

throughput grew so much, right?

608

Yeah.

609

Because if you're trying to pump

out all of these numbers, you need

610

more cadre or more instructors,

but you don't have more, and so you

611

require them to work longer hours.

612

So it all goes back.

613

I mean, I think a lot of this goes

back to just the size problem.

614

That's a huge misfit or misalignment.

615

It's a set of misalignment problems.

616

But then to the other point about

being able to reflect and synthesize

617

and think and stuff like that, that is

what school also helped to represent.

618

So I know when guys came to our program

at Naval Postgraduate School, it was

619

a great time for them to be able to

reconnect with family and to stop and

620

breathe and think and all the rest of it

for a certain period of time, though I…

621

But there's a sweet spot there because you

want people to continue to learn, right?

622

And not just view it as a, "Hey, everybody

wink, is going to allow us to take

623

a break, and we don't really have to

necessarily be serious about this stuff."

624

Fortunately, most of the classes

were extremely, even the cohorts were

625

extremely serious about school, and it

was a ton of fun because I also think

626

that they reconnected with getting

to read, and maybe they didn't like

627

writing so much, and this was in the

pre-ChatGPT or whatever it is era.

628

So they actually had to do the writing

themselves, which was extremely painful,

629

but an interesting ritual for them.

630

And when classes, you could see it, I

mean, I can go back through the last,

631

the 20 years of cohorts that I taught,

and there was nothing more fun for

632

them or for me than when they wanted

to be smart and when they wanted to

633

sound smart and when they knew who

people in the, in their class, their

634

classmates, which of their classmates

were smart on which topics, and they

635

turned to them, and they looked to them.

636

The, this is the total opposite

from the, as you were saying before,

637

the "We're just knuckle draggers.

638

We're really not very smart.

639

We don't like to read."

640

That's a bunch of crap.

641

It's not entirely crap, but what you

want is you want everybody, you want…

642

Uh, so this is group dynamics again.

643

Wherever the critical mass is in the

group, usually if the least common

644

denominator is very low, and that's

the critical mass, you know, they've

645

got the strong personalities in the

group, the group sinks to that level.

646

Speaker 3: Yeah.

647

Anna: If you've got a critical mass-

Where, guys are very engaged, and

648

they want to be regionally smart,

and they want to keep pushing the

649

envelope in terms of being creative

thinkers and all the rest of it.

650

It's amazing how high that

group can rise together.

651

It's, it's-

652

Preston: Agreed

653

… Anna: it's really,

654

Preston: it's neat.

655

And I, I think, you know, one of the

compliments, y- I'm a, I'm a public and

656

well, I've often said publicly what a big

fan I am of Naval Postgraduate School,

657

and there's a number of reasons for that.

658

And one of them is, is the mix of

civilian and military instructors.

659

It's not a retirement center for

colonels and generals as some of the

660

other professional military schools are.

661

And it's also a mixed cohort, which

is y- you're not just going with

662

your own tribe, and we'll come

back to that word in a second.

663

But you're going with a mix of

group of people that gets you,

664

while they're similar they're very

diverse in where they're coming from.

665

And you're asked to really think.

666

Now, to your point, we know from

Art Finch and other people that

667

the predominance of things like

dyslexia, ADHD, and other things in

668

special operations is quite high.

669

What used to be called learning

disabilities and now just

670

called learning profiles.

671

But those aren't

correlated to intelligence.

672

And so often we have to take people

that are very smart but can't manifest

673

it in traditional ways, and give

them the tools to express themselves,

674

either verbally or through writing, to

communicate really how clever they are,

675

how smart they are, how much they've

given real thought to this and their

676

experience as it connects to theory.

677

And I, and I think I, I just wanted to say

that I'm a huge fan of NPS for doing that.

678

Anna: No, it was a best job in the

world and a t- and a total privilege

679

for all of the reasons that you say.

680

Which doesn't mean that there aren't a

few, like, eh, I would say disturbing…

681

let me just try this

out on you because- Okay

682

I know this, you know, about,

uh, yes, I've always been a huge

683

fan of the whole idea that there

are multiple intelligences.

684

I think that's indisputable.

685

I mean, so I'm old school, and I think

of it in the Howard Gardner terms.

686

Preston: Yep.

687

Anna: And one of the things that I

found or I saw over the years is that

688

the guys are, some of them tend to

be great at verbal communication.

689

Preston: Yep.

690

Anna: Right?

691

Basically at being salesmen.

692

Yep.

693

And building rapport and all

the rest of that sort of stuff.

694

Extremely transactionally oriented.

695

Speaker 3: Yeah.

696

Anna: But I think as a society that we've

become, as a society, so transactionally

697

oriented that we give transactionalism

itself a huge, I don't want to say

698

boost, that's not the right word.

699

But here's where I'm going with this.

700

If what you need to do overseas

is actually work closely with

701

a counterpart as an advisor-

702

Speaker 3: Yeah

703

… Anna: taking a transactional approach

is gonna cut it less and less.

704

Yeah.

705

Even though our society is becoming

far more transactional in how

706

we all deal with each other.

707

And the reason why I say that is

because relationships, at least

708

in the non-West wor- that I'm most

familiar with, are based on trust.

709

And the more transactionally we

behave, the more opportunistic we

710

turn the people that we're trying to

work with, and it's a bad combination.

711

So some of this, in terms of how

all of this stuff aligns over

712

time, is not necessarily good.

713

Preston: Yeah.

714

Agreed.

715

Anna: If that makes sense.

716

Preston: It makes total sense, and

it actually brings us to this next

717

point, which is a term you and I have

just talked about a lot, which is

718

the concept of tribe or tribalism,

and it's something that gets bandied

719

around quite a bit, both because of

behaviors and labels and its relation to

720

indigenous people, et cetera, et cetera.

721

And then the teams themselves often have,

you know, symbols of tribes, whether

722

they be Vikings or Native Americans or

others, on their shields- Right … on

723

their brands and everything else,

except it's more complicated than that.

724

However, even though it's more

complicated, some of what you're

725

talking about, this transactional us

versus them, we're not together- Yeah

726

that's all part of it.

727

And I wanted to, from an anthropological

point of view, have you just

728

talk about that for a second.

729

Anna: Okay, so I, I did think about

this a little bit 'cause I knew you

730

I mean, I knew you were gonna ask.

731

So the interesting thing, I mean, I've

written stuff in the past about everybody

732

gets the word tribe wrong over here.

733

Well, first of all, I should preface

this by in the politically correct

734

or woke world in which we live, but

I mean, even in anthropology, tribe

735

has been a bad word for a while.

736

I still use it because, you

know, when I was over in Africa-

737

Yeah … people would introduce

themselves as Sa- uh, "Hi, I'm Sam.

738

I'm a," I don't know, "A Komba by tribe."

739

And what was I supposed to say?

740

"Oh, no, tribes don't really exist."

741

Right.

742

You know, that's just a intellectual

construct, blah, blah, blah.

743

So I've always used the word tribe.

744

And there are different anthropological

definitions of tribes, but for me,

745

tribes, the way they exist in the

non-West, have an moral obligation.

746

There's a deep sense of moral obligation

because the group existed before you

747

came along, and the group is gonna

survive long after you're gone.

748

Right.

749

And your moral obligation

isn't just to the living.

750

It's to the not yet born,

and it's to the dead.

751

And you're tied into these

webs of moral obligation.

752

That's not how we think of tribe, right?

753

I mean, when we talk about political

tribes these days, there ain't no moral

754

obligation sort of embedded in it.

755

Speaker 3: Yeah.

756

Anna: But thinking about it, if you stop

and think about it, actually, the word

757

does sort of apply to military units,

where there is a deep moral obligation

758

among the members of the unit, right?

759

Or there should be, in terms of not just

looking after each other when they're

760

deployed, but taking care of family

members if something happens, when

761

people come back for years afterwards.

762

The whole Gold Star family, I don't wanna

call it a phenomenon, but it has been

763

pretty amazing- Yeah … in terms of

what we've seen over the last 20 years.

764

So there is a moral obligation

to what exists in military units,

765

small-scale units, that is very tribal.

766

But the other problem with the

word tribe for the military is it

767

implies that everybody's a warrior.

768

Preston: Yep.

769

Anna: You know, if you belong to a

tribe, and you're a young male, and

770

you know, we can talk about women

differently, but traditionally in

771

tribes, women were never warriors.

772

It was the guys who were warriors, and

there are certain expectations of them.

773

But the problem with the word warrior

associated with the military is soldiers

774

and Marines and everybody who's in this

profession of arms and works for the

775

United States government and Department

of Defense is not a freaking warrior.

776

Warriors always fought as

individuals for themselves.

777

They may have been, an individual glory

was very important, and demonstrating

778

bravery was huge, hugely important.

779

And while I think those things are at the

root of how men wanna behave, even those

780

in uniform, there's a total contradiction

in terms between thinking that you

781

belong to this sort of autonomous thing

that's not part of this greater military

782

and being a member of a military unit.

783

So to really get at your question,

which is, we're gonna be Vikings,

784

we're gonna be pirates, we're gonna be

Sons of Anarchy, and all the rest of

785

that crap, and that's what I call it.

786

I call it crap.

787

I don't know where it's come from, because

I don't know why it's not sufficient

788

to be members of NODA, to be members

of a SEAL platoon or a SEAL team.

789

I don't know where it's gone off

the rails, that you need so much

790

more embellishment, and it's

artificial embellishment beyond that.

791

I mean, I've got some

ideas, but it's just weird.

792

It's weird to me.

793

Why isn't it sufficient to just be

a member of this particular team,

794

this particular military unit?

795

Why do you need all of that

mascot making or whatever we

796

wanna call it, emblemization?

797

And then if it's to make you more

exclusive, right, and to keep others,

798

to set yourselves apart, I don't

know how healthy that is either.

799

Preston: So what

800

I've

801

often struggled

802

with is that we've got these

different, say, let's call them

803

squadrons, who will have their own

patches, often color-coded- Right

804

often associated with things

like pirates or, or, you know,

805

Native Americans or whatever.

806

The problem is, is that when you look

at history, that oftentimes when one

807

of those teams goes sideways, it's

because what- Yep … they did was they

808

valued that local brand- Yep … or

emblem or whatever- Yep … more than

809

the larger entity they were a part of.

810

And they started fostering their

own value systems separate than the

811

one who was actually employing them.

812

And I think that leadership has to be

really careful when they're allowing those

813

sub-tribes to exist, or whatever we wanna

call them, those sub-organizations, to

814

make sure that they understand, yeah, that

isn't actually who you work for, right?

815

You work for us.

816

Yes.

817

And-

818

Anna: Precisely.

819

Yep.

820

Preston: Yeah.

821

You wanna keep working for us?

822

Yep.

823

Here are the rules

824

Anna: Yeah.

825

No, exactly.

826

And then again, I mean, I would just

pose this question back to everybody.

827

Why isn't it enough to be in the Special

Forces in a member of a HALO team

828

or a member of a SCUBA team or, you

know, with your, I guess it's now, it

829

used to be just three numbers, right?

830

You were, 315 or 317.

831

Now you've got four numbers.

832

But why isn't that enough?

833

And why can't you have enough mystique

associated with your four numbers,

834

or whatever it is, is the designator

of your particular unit or element.

835

Why do you need more?

836

Is it for external consumption?

837

Is it to prove to other

people how different you are?

838

Is it to psych yourselves up?

839

Is that really what you need?

840

Is it to psych other people out?

841

It almost, and this probably isn't

fair, and people can scream at me,

842

but it almost seems like it's a

compensation for something else.

843

And that Signals that there may be other

problems that are more deeply rooted.

844

Preston: Yeah.

845

So one of the things that we've, w-

you and I have talked about before, and

846

you've talked about in your book, The

Company They Keep, is this concept of

847

purpose and place, or what Sue Phillips

will call connection and belonging.

848

But this idea of who am I?

849

Where do I belong?

850

How do I belong there?

851

Who authorizes me to belong there?

852

Things like that.

853

And as we're talking about these

different subgroups and everything

854

else, I think this question of purpose

and place, especially in selection

855

and assessment, or the graduation

thereof, becomes really important.

856

As a, as an anthropologist, how do you

think about those kind of concepts?

857

Anna: Yeah, no, absolutely.

858

So I always used to joke in classes

that if you got selection right

859

and the division of labor right,

everything else would fall into place.

860

And what I mean by division of labor,

I mean, we've sort of talked about

861

assessment and selection, which as

I say, that should be front-loaded.

862

The most talented HR people on the

planet should be working with SOF on

863

figuring out how you do assessment

and selection and all the rest

864

of that, your best personnelists

and psyches and everything else.

865

But the other piece of

this is division of labor.

866

If you think about it, if everybody's

got a purpose and they've got a lane,

867

and they've got something that they

are as good, if not better than others

868

at, then that should help take care

of some of the identity problem.

869

You need a little bit of

redundancy across SOF, right?

870

You know, the SEALs can do a little bit

of what Special Forces does, and Special

871

Forces maybe can do a little bit of what

I don't know, or the Raiders can do a

872

little bit of what Special Forces does.

873

But the more separate, the more

they've got their own specializations

874

and their own lines of work and their

own roles and responsibilities, the

875

better off the entire enterprise is.

876

And something else that hasn't come out

yet-- Well, and something that did come

877

out, I talked about this before, but it's

the whole idea of mutual indispensability.

878

If you've got mutual indispensability,

which you get with a division of labor

879

that actually divvies up who does what

in a very kind of thoughtful way so

880

that there's a little bit of overlap,

but there's not so much overlap that

881

everybody's competing with everybody

else over missions and all the rest

882

of that sort of stuff, then you

can have mutual indispensability.

883

And why do the best teams

work as well as they do?

884

Because members of that team feel as

though they're all mutually indispensable.

885

And to me, I think mutual indispensability

is what we need in the co- I mean,

886

I n- we need it all over the place.

887

But that sense of mutual indispensability

where I can't do my job without you also

888

doing your job, which is not the same

as my job, that binds people together

889

in a sort of in a, in, in a bigger team.

890

Preston: To add to that, I think, you

know, the, one of the things that I've

891

often told teams is don't measure yourself

by the thing you're not meant to do.

892

And what I mean by that is that

I have an EdD, you have a PhD.

893

W- you and I are really smart at some

stuff, but if you test me on math or you

894

on opera, I don't know if you know opera,

we're probably not gonna be that good.

895

But if we're in a room- … of

just math people, I'm gonna

896

look like a total idiot, right?

897

And so what often happens is- Yeah

… something like direct action will take

898

prominence, and then everyone will get

evaluated against their ability to do

899

DA even though that's really not why

you're needed- Yep … and not really

900

what the country needs you to do.

901

Anna: And again, part of it's

false advertising, right?

902

Because DA is the thing that's

always held up and hypnotizes

903

people- Yeah … in terms of the,

you know, this is what you join.

904

And I mean, I can remember going

into headquarters buildings, and

905

you know what's on the walls.

906

It's all the pictures of all the cool

guy stuff, throwing yourself out of a

907

plane, emerging out of the water with

scuba gear on, all the rest of it.

908

There are no pictures of just sitting

in some dusty village somewhere with

909

some guys who might have flip-flops on

and carrying AK-47s, and yet that's an

910

incredible, that may be the most important

job in some regards if what we really

911

want is for other countries to be able

to police their own sufficiently so that

912

we don't have to do this expeditionary,

Groundhog Day, Whac-A-Mole stuff forever.

913

Preston: One of the things that I've, I've

spoken about is when people have asked me

914

about the different teams and they always

say something like, "Which is the best?"

915

And I'm like it's n- that's a ridiculous

question- Right … because they're

916

designed to do different things."

917

Right.

918

And somebody will slag the Marines or

slag Green Bereters, and I'll always

919

explain, like, what you're criticizing

them for is not really what they do, and

920

if you actually evaluate them against what

they do, they're the best in the world."

921

And I'll give you an example

with the Green Berets.

922

The, the reality is, and I'm speaking now

as an educator, is there's a phenomenon,

923

I don't know what the name of it is,

but if you go to a training course, any,

924

canoeing, shooting, driving, whatever,

and you take it from, let's say Anna,

925

I take a course from you, and we go

somewhere and I'm struggling with a

926

problem, and then you walk in the door

as the instructor, I'm immediately

927

not only relieved, but I defer to you.

928

And there's a power that instructors have,

a soft power that's often misunderstood.

929

And the reality is that Green Berets

weld one of the largest levers of soft

930

power the US has because they're the

instructors for more than half of the

931

special operations teams in the world.

932

And so if you want access to a part of

the world quickly, have a Green Beret

933

bubba call up his buddy that he trained

in whatever country, and it's sorted.

934

And people don't understand

how powerful that is.

935

Anna: Absolutely, and we don't make nearly

enough of it because again, that other

936

stuff, that other sexier stuff, right?

937

Is what draws everybody's attention,

to include the attention of guys with

938

three and four stars on their shoulders.

939

Which is crazy, because you can

get so much more done through…

940

And again, this goes

back to relationships.

941

Preston: Yep.

942

Anna: And that's really what SF

was always in the business to be

943

good at, is relationship building.

944

But it's not enough just to build

a relationship and then leave six

945

months later or eight months later

and never see those people again.

946

It's gotta be…

947

I mean, you know, there were all

those alliterative terms for a while.

948

We had a, a really good s-

SF student who wrote a…

949

His thesis was, "Okay, you're

saying persistent presence.

950

If you mean persistent presence, then

that means we would all be living

951

overseas with our families, and maybe

that's what we should be doing, and

952

here's what it would look like, and

here's what it would do for the force."

953

Yeah.

954

So there was persistent presence,

then there was enduring engagement.

955

But the point is that if you're

continually sending people to place X,

956

and then they come home from place X,

and you send them to place Y, and they

957

come home from place Y, and then they

go to place Z, well, you're shooting

958

yourself in the foot when it comes to

the thing that you claim that you're

959

really good at, and should be really

good at, which is relationship building

960

and keeping those relationships alive.

961

And the other great advantage to keeping

relationships alive is through those

962

relationships, you keep your ear, the

United States keeps its ear to the ground,

963

and should have a far better sense of

what's going on overseas than all of

964

the electronic and SIGINT and all the

rest of that stuff is gonna deliver,

965

because you've got a direct pipeline

into not only what's going on, but

966

how people feel about what's going on.

967

And your trusted agents, in terms

of the people that you actually have

968

relationships with and know how to read,

know where they're coming from, know

969

why they think what they think and all

the rest of it, you can vet information

970

far better that way than simply through

scarfing up every electronic transmission

971

that floats through the atmosphere.

972

Preston: Yeah, these, you know, these

shared relationships, these enduring

973

or long-lasting relationships are often

founded, and you think about, you know,

974

the different teams themselves, but

certainly working with foreign partners,

975

are founded in these rich, immersive

experience, the shared adversity, the

976

shared sort of wonderful experiences that,

that are unique to that moment in time.

977

And it's, it helps me think about this

word communitas, which you and I have

978

talked about a lot, which is what you

taught me, and if I'm getting it wrong,

979

then please correct me, is not just the

traditional historical use of communitas,

980

but it also denotes and primarily denotes

a feeling, a, a group shared feeling of

981

an understanding or a shared experience.

982

Is that, is that accurate?

983

Anna: Yes, where you feel, where you're

involved in some sort of an event.

984

In anthropology, communitas, it's

usually, yeah, so some sort of event

985

or some sort of ritual or some sort

of rite or some sort of ceremony, and

986

you are part, you realize you're part

of something greater than yourself.

987

Speaker 3: Yeah.

988

Anna: And you may only have that feeling

once at that kind of an event or that kind

989

of a rite, but you're able to tap back

into, you remember that feeling, and so

990

that association remains really strong.

991

So then if you apply this to what people

doing on deploy- uh, you know, overseas

992

and stuff like that, and what you were

talking about in terms of adversity,

993

going to the field, adverse conditions,

or something funny happens, or whatever

994

it is, it's a bonding experience.

995

Everybody can refer back to that,

remember it, and it sort of gives

996

them a sense of or a feeling of

communitas long after that's passed

997

Preston: And I think that's part of

that power- Oh … I was talking about-

998

Yeah … with instructor cadre, right?

999

Is that they, they- Yeah … foster these

rich experiences that, that generate

00:56:12,675 --> 00:56:17,195

this, this feeling of communitas, and

later can tap back into that when they

00:56:17,195 --> 00:56:21,945

reconnect in those relationships as

long as they haven't been lost too long.

00:56:22,635 --> 00:56:22,945

Anna: Yeah.

00:56:23,005 --> 00:56:24,765

And then I was thinking

about it yesterday.

00:56:24,795 --> 00:56:27,835

Well, I mean, I've been thinking about it

for a while because I've been witnessing

00:56:27,835 --> 00:56:30,125

this at home for a number of years.

00:56:30,525 --> 00:56:32,175

And this is where it'll be interesting.

00:56:32,225 --> 00:56:35,445

As women come into the force,

what's that gonna mean?

00:56:35,455 --> 00:56:39,565

Because the reason why I bring this

up is what's one of the ways in

00:56:39,565 --> 00:56:41,745

which guys bond and stay bonded?

00:56:42,035 --> 00:56:45,515

So I think it drives women crazy, or

at least it drives this one crazy.

00:56:45,865 --> 00:56:50,195

It's the same stories you go back and

tell every time you see each other.

00:56:50,475 --> 00:56:50,495

Yeah.

00:56:50,505 --> 00:56:55,845

You're going back and repeating the

same stories over and over again.

00:56:55,885 --> 00:56:59,015

And, you know, there's usually humor

involved, or there's drama, or there's

00:56:59,015 --> 00:57:01,635

high drama, or there's something.

00:57:01,895 --> 00:57:05,605

But the repeating of this whenever

guys meet, and I think guys

00:57:05,625 --> 00:57:07,135

do it much more than women do.

00:57:07,135 --> 00:57:09,885

I could be wrong about this,

but that's just my experience.

00:57:10,365 --> 00:57:15,385

To the point where it becomes very boring

to sort of wives or to anybody else who's

00:57:15,385 --> 00:57:17,425

not wasn't part of that whole experience.

00:57:17,715 --> 00:57:18,815

But what's that doing?

00:57:19,075 --> 00:57:24,115

That's sort of reminding people,

not just verbally, but it's tapping

00:57:24,115 --> 00:57:29,035

into something much deeper, and

it's renewing and strengthening and

00:57:29,035 --> 00:57:31,725

re-strengthening those bonds, I think.

00:57:32,275 --> 00:57:36,325

I mean, that's just my observation 'cause

I'm not a guy, and this seems particular

00:57:36,325 --> 00:57:38,615

to guys much more than it is to women.

00:57:38,635 --> 00:57:44,395

But this is where somebody can tell me I'm

totally wrong about this, and I'd listen.

00:57:44,955 --> 00:57:46,075

Preston: I think it makes sense to me.

00:57:46,075 --> 00:57:48,635

I think it makes sense that when

I think about my wilderness guides

00:57:48,905 --> 00:57:52,535

friends who we worked together years

ago, we'll come back and tell those

00:57:52,535 --> 00:57:56,165

stories as a reminder of, yeah, that

was us that went through that together.

00:57:56,235 --> 00:57:56,455

Speaker 3: Yep.

00:57:56,535 --> 00:57:59,385

Preston: And there's, there are

consequences of that that very few

00:57:59,385 --> 00:58:02,865

other people understand, and I just

wanna let you know that I understand

00:58:02,865 --> 00:58:04,145

even though you've heard that story.

00:58:04,145 --> 00:58:08,045

It's a, it's an acknowledgement of a,

of a shared experience, of a fundamental

00:58:08,045 --> 00:58:12,995

and transformational shared experience

that I think reduces one's loneliness.

00:58:12,995 --> 00:58:16,265

Because I think a lot of times, going

back to what you were talking about,

00:58:16,265 --> 00:58:20,535

the transactional nature of humans,

there's a lot of folks that live in

00:58:20,535 --> 00:58:24,025

the routine world and don't spend

much time in the critical world.

00:58:24,405 --> 00:58:28,865

And when you meet somebody who has,

you kind of wanna do that shibboleth of

00:58:28,865 --> 00:58:31,605

saying, "Oh, remember that time where

we were cold, wet, tired, hungry, and

00:58:31,605 --> 00:58:32,965

confused, and we were all gonna die?"

00:58:33,215 --> 00:58:34,825

And they're like, they laugh,

and they're like, "Yeah."

00:58:34,825 --> 00:58:37,795

And that's like that way of

saying, "I get you and you get

00:58:37,805 --> 00:58:38,915

me, and now let's move on."

00:58:39,357 --> 00:58:40,307

Anna: Yeah, so why you…

00:58:40,357 --> 00:58:44,277

so back to that other point, Preston,

which is then why do you have to

00:58:44,277 --> 00:58:49,447

have some sort of a, I don't know,

some emblem or some tattoo or-

00:58:49,447 --> 00:58:50,837

Right … some other kind of thing?

00:58:50,847 --> 00:58:52,377

You know, as long as you've got that.

00:58:52,397 --> 00:58:56,887

And it could be, but this is just an

off the top of my head kind of thought,

00:58:56,927 --> 00:59:02,307

which is always dangerous, but it could

be that for assisting with stuff like

00:59:02,327 --> 00:59:07,107

PTSD or, uh, some of the things that

are associated with it that maybe aren't

00:59:07,237 --> 00:59:12,737

quite as pronounced The DOD would get

much more bang for its buck if it just,

00:59:12,737 --> 00:59:17,487

if it arranged some reunions, right?

00:59:17,487 --> 00:59:18,157

Yeah.

00:59:18,157 --> 00:59:22,857

Or re- ar- arranged for guys to be

able to get together periodically,

00:59:22,857 --> 00:59:28,197

where it, the burden is not on them

to do that, but it's a way of both

00:59:29,067 --> 00:59:33,167

DOD sort of acknowledging how much

they did, but just facilitating that.

00:59:33,187 --> 00:59:34,757

I mean, if somebody facilitated it.

00:59:34,757 --> 00:59:37,867

Now I can hear people shrieking

and saying, "Then they would just

00:59:37,957 --> 00:59:41,967

F it all up," if it were something

institutionalized and official.

00:59:42,207 --> 00:59:48,077

But it does make me wonder if guys being

able to let their hair down with people

00:59:48,077 --> 00:59:53,177

that they've let their hair down with

before doesn't have a power that may

00:59:53,177 --> 00:59:57,557

be more useful than some of the other

things that are being tried these days.

00:59:57,837 --> 00:59:59,377

Preston: Well, I think what's

interesting, I've talked to some

00:59:59,377 --> 01:00:02,997

people about this, and o- one of the

things that the US actually does very

01:00:02,997 --> 01:00:06,297

poorly compared to the Commonwealth

countries is they don't actually

01:00:06,297 --> 01:00:08,277

leverage their alumni very well at all.

01:00:08,277 --> 01:00:09,747

In fact, they often dismiss them.

01:00:09,747 --> 01:00:10,067

Yeah.

01:00:10,067 --> 01:00:10,207

Yeah.

01:00:10,207 --> 01:00:14,467

And what the Commonwealth countries will

often do is have that alumni association

01:00:14,467 --> 01:00:18,557

with the master, with something else,

and it- it's really, really powerful.

01:00:18,577 --> 01:00:22,817

In the US, that used to be the local

legion hall or, or other things.

01:00:22,937 --> 01:00:23,147

Mm-hmm.

01:00:23,147 --> 01:00:23,221

Mm-hmm.

01:00:23,221 --> 01:00:24,681

The foreign wars.

01:00:24,691 --> 01:00:28,921

The problem is, those become

really drinking establishments

01:00:28,931 --> 01:00:29,911

for the dysfunctional- Yeah

01:00:29,911 --> 01:00:30,491

and the broken.

01:00:30,501 --> 01:00:30,521

Yeah.

01:00:30,531 --> 01:00:33,111

And so your, your- Yeah … your

operators- Yeah … who are

01:00:33,191 --> 01:00:36,501

actually healthy don't wanna go

there to relive the glory days.

01:00:36,581 --> 01:00:36,721

Right.

01:00:36,721 --> 01:00:36,886

Right.

01:00:36,886 --> 01:00:37,051

Right.

01:00:37,051 --> 01:00:40,691

So there needs to be some mechanism, and

I think things like CrossFit or other

01:00:40,691 --> 01:00:45,861

things became a proxy for that to allow

people who've had those shared experiences

01:00:45,871 --> 01:00:48,031

to still do healthy things together.

01:00:48,471 --> 01:00:48,751

Anna: Yeah.

01:00:48,831 --> 01:00:54,261

But so, and then it raises the question,

is it enough to have shared deployment

01:00:54,321 --> 01:00:57,751

years with other people to get together

and let your hair and all the rest of it?

01:00:57,791 --> 01:01:00,391

Or do you actually have to do it

with the people that you served with?

01:01:00,671 --> 01:01:02,061

And I don't know the answer to that.

01:01:02,061 --> 01:01:02,311

Yeah.

01:01:02,311 --> 01:01:07,841

But, I mean, I would just suggest that

facilitating groups of guys who spent

01:01:07,881 --> 01:01:12,311

time together overseas, facilitating

their getting back together when it's

01:01:12,321 --> 01:01:16,721

not for a funeral or it's not for,

you know, some other kind of tragic

01:01:16,721 --> 01:01:20,371

event, which is what does bring them

all back together, that actually

01:01:20,371 --> 01:01:22,241

might be fairly powerful or useful.

01:01:22,261 --> 01:01:22,951

I don't know.

01:01:23,011 --> 01:01:25,121

It's just I'm, I just throw it out there.

01:01:25,281 --> 01:01:27,031

Preston: It's interesting that you

say that, Anna, because I was just

01:01:27,031 --> 01:01:28,191

saying this to a friend of mine.

01:01:28,231 --> 01:01:31,551

I was just in the Pentagon for a

promotion ceremony, and they said,

01:01:31,811 --> 01:01:32,781

"Presman, what are you doing here?

01:01:32,781 --> 01:01:33,881

Why are you coming to this ceremony?"

01:01:33,881 --> 01:01:36,061

And I was like, "Because

I go to too many funerals.

01:01:36,221 --> 01:01:39,301

Every once in a while- Mm-hmm … I

want to go to a promotion or retirement

01:01:39,301 --> 01:01:40,691

ceremony to go, 'You made it.'

01:01:40,791 --> 01:01:41,571

'You're still here.

01:01:41,571 --> 01:01:42,331

We pulled it off.

01:01:42,341 --> 01:01:43,201

We got you through it.'"

01:01:43,481 --> 01:01:48,051

And I think- Mm-hmm … that's the kind of

celebrations we probably, those rituals,

01:01:48,371 --> 01:01:51,141

you know, and the, those are the kind of

rituals we should probably start paying

01:01:51,141 --> 01:01:55,801

more attention to because the funerals

as a ritual is just, it's crushing.

01:01:56,061 --> 01:01:57,611

Anna: And guys have

been to too many of them

01:01:57,721 --> 01:01:59,131

Preston: And continue

to go to too many And,

01:01:59,311 --> 01:02:03,181

Anna: yes, and especially now

when in the rear view mirror, the

01:02:03,181 --> 01:02:05,661

big question is, what was it for?

01:02:06,111 --> 01:02:08,407

Preston: Right Yep.

01:02:08,677 --> 01:02:12,727

Anna: And so because of where we are

in terms of what those 20 years have or

01:02:12,727 --> 01:02:14,507

haven't added up to, and we won't know.

01:02:14,507 --> 01:02:15,657

It's like Vietnam, right?

01:02:15,657 --> 01:02:15,677

Yeah.

01:02:15,687 --> 01:02:16,487

You don't know.

01:02:16,507 --> 01:02:20,077

There are people who make the argument

now that actually the war was a huge

01:02:20,087 --> 01:02:23,287

success because it stopped communism

and, it, you know, from creeping

01:02:23,287 --> 01:02:25,077

forward in Asia and all the rest of it.

01:02:25,487 --> 01:02:26,057

So we don't…

01:02:26,087 --> 01:02:29,967

You never know because of w- how

time gets sliced and when you're

01:02:29,967 --> 01:02:31,867

looking back retrospectively.

01:02:32,197 --> 01:02:36,027

But at least for the moment, and at

least in the wake of what happened

01:02:36,167 --> 01:02:40,387

with the Afghanistan withdrawal and all

the rest of it, some of this stuff is

01:02:40,527 --> 01:02:46,777

far more important than I think people

realize in terms of reminding people

01:02:47,117 --> 01:02:53,877

that what they did was worthwhile beyond

just what they gained as an individual

01:02:53,897 --> 01:02:55,847

or what they lost as an individual.

01:02:55,907 --> 01:02:58,567

It's something that needs a lot

more attention than it's getting,

01:02:59,017 --> 01:03:02,227

and not in the sappy sort of

way that it sometimes gets it.

01:03:02,937 --> 01:03:03,307

Preston: Agreed.

01:03:03,927 --> 01:03:07,107

As we start to sort of wrap this up

and come to a close, and it's been

01:03:07,107 --> 01:03:11,107

a tremendous honor to talk to you,

there, there's one other thing I

01:03:11,117 --> 01:03:14,467

wanted just to chat with you about,

and it's a conversation that was

01:03:14,467 --> 01:03:18,137

very influential on my own research

and I wanted to get your take on.

01:03:18,557 --> 01:03:19,047

When I first…

01:03:19,067 --> 01:03:21,867

And people have heard this before, but

when I first started doing my research

01:03:21,877 --> 01:03:25,667

and going to the teams, the thing I kept

coming over and over to the conclusion

01:03:25,667 --> 01:03:29,297

was that what mattered almost more

importantly than anything was that

01:03:29,297 --> 01:03:32,617

a candidate was a good fit for that

culture, that if they weren't a good

01:03:32,617 --> 01:03:35,807

fit, it didn't matter how well they

could shoot, move, and communicate- Right

01:03:35,937 --> 01:03:37,507

because if they didn't

fit in, it wouldn't work.

01:03:37,697 --> 01:03:39,887

And then upon- Right … talking to Dr.

01:03:39,897 --> 01:03:43,357

Adam Grant, the professor from

Wharton, he pointed out to me

01:03:43,377 --> 01:03:46,947

that's a very dangerous proposition

from the following perspective.

01:03:47,397 --> 01:03:51,847

If you're not careful, a good

fit can, and have seen this, has

01:03:52,247 --> 01:03:54,137

led to the propensity- Mm-hmm

01:03:54,407 --> 01:03:57,887

to clone yourself, to look for people

that are- Mm-hmm … just like you.

01:03:57,947 --> 01:03:58,037

Mm-hmm.

01:03:58,047 --> 01:04:01,267

What that ends up doing- Mm-hmm … is

you end up with a bunch of people that

01:04:01,277 --> 01:04:04,757

think the same way you do, which against

a technical problem is awesome because

01:04:04,757 --> 01:04:08,837

you can finish each other's sentences

go really fast, but against an unordered

01:04:08,837 --> 01:04:13,847

problem or a complex adaptive problem

can be really troublesome because you

01:04:13,847 --> 01:04:18,167

lack what is called neurodiversity,

which is different than, you know, social

01:04:18,177 --> 01:04:19,827

diversity or social justice diversity.

01:04:20,137 --> 01:04:21,667

Neurodiversity is simply, do I have…

01:04:21,697 --> 01:04:24,177

Am I surrounded by a bunch of people

that think differently than I do?

01:04:24,557 --> 01:04:30,017

And so I say all of that because I

don't think it in any way lessens the

01:04:30,017 --> 01:04:34,757

importance of cultural fit, but it

also puts on a burden of having to make

01:04:34,757 --> 01:04:37,877

sure we don't shoot ourselves in the

foot when we're trying to achieve it.

01:04:38,477 --> 01:04:40,297

Anna: So if I can make this make sense.

01:04:40,327 --> 01:04:41,297

So I wrote something.

01:04:41,297 --> 01:04:44,307

So I mean, this is something,

the Danes organized something and

01:04:44,327 --> 01:04:49,107

asked me to, to write something

about the exclusiveness of thought.

01:04:49,247 --> 01:04:52,747

You know, how do you make an

ex- how do you make exclusive

01:04:52,807 --> 01:04:55,917

elite entities more inclusive?

01:04:56,137 --> 01:05:01,413

And this was a number of years ago before

wokeness- truly infected the world.

01:05:01,793 --> 01:05:05,153

So diversity had a slightly

less loaded meaning.

01:05:05,433 --> 01:05:05,613

Speaker 3: Yeah.

01:05:05,613 --> 01:05:08,503

Anna: But in thinking about all of

this, so there's a paradox in the

01:05:08,503 --> 01:05:11,843

military, and let me see if I can

explain this so that it makes sense.