Driving instructors need to embrace the evolving technology of vehicles, especially as we move closer to autonomous driving.

Terry Cook chats with Dr. Nick Reed, a leading expert in vehicle technology and road safety, about the crucial role instructors will play in the development and adoption of automated vehicles.

They discuss the importance of understanding driver assistance systems, safety ratings like Euro NCAP, and how instructors can educate learners about making informed choices when buying their first cars.

The conversation also highlights the need for a balance between automation and driver awareness, ensuring that safety features are utilized rather than disabled. This episode sheds light on how technology is reshaping the driving landscape and the responsibilities that come with it.

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Terry Cook welcomes Dr. Nick Reed to the Instructor Podcast as they delve into the evolving landscape of driving instruction amidst the rise of autonomous vehicles. With Dr. Reed's extensive background in road safety and mobility research, the conversation explores the significant role driving instructors will play in bridging the gap between traditional driving skills and the new technological advancements in vehicle automation. They discuss the importance of understanding and embracing modern driving assistance systems, emphasizing that while vehicles are becoming more automated, the responsibility of safe driving still rests with human operators. As they navigate through topics such as Euro NCAP safety ratings and the implications of new technologies on learner drivers, listeners gain insights into the essential skills that instructors must impart to ensure that new drivers are not only adept at operating vehicles but also aware of the technologies that support safe driving. The episode underscores the necessity for instructors to adapt their teaching methods to incorporate discussions about when to drive versus when to choose alternative transport options like walking or cycling, reflecting a broader shift towards safer road use.

Takeaways:

• Driving instructors will play a pivotal role in ensuring safe driving practices as vehicle automation evolves.
• The distinction between driver assistance technologies and full automation must be clearly understood by instructors.
• Vehicle safety features, such as emergency braking systems, are crucial for first-time car buyers.
• Understanding the Euro NCAP ratings can significantly impact the safety of new car purchases.
• Instructors should educate learners about the responsibilities that come with using advanced driver-assistance systems.
• Public perception of automated vehicles is often skeptical, emphasizing the need for education and trust-building.

The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.

Welcome to the Instructor Podcast.

This is a show that helps you become an even more awesome driving instructor.

And as always, I am your average host, Terry Cook.

And I'm delighted to be even more delighted that you have chosen to listen because we are back on track of our technology season as I'm joined by Dr.

Nick Reed to discuss autonomous vehicles and why Dr.

Reed thinks instructors play an important role in their evolution.

Now we also take a look at the Euro NCAP safety ratings as well as getting some advice on learners buying their first car.

And I'm delighted to have this technology season sponsored by my Drive Time, the industry's premium award winning business management app.

Find out more@mydrivetime.co.uk and if you're enjoying these episodes, make sure you subscribe to the Instructor podcast email and WhatsApp channel to to keep up to date with all the latest releases and industry information.

Now you can find links for those in the show notes or on the website www.the instructorpodcast.com but for now, let's get stuck into the show.

So today we are joined by former Academy Director of the crl, Head of Mobility R and D at Bosch, Chief Road Safety Advisor for National Highways and current member of the Department for Transport Science and Advisory Council, Dr.

Nick Reed.

How we doing Nick?

Hi Terry.

Good to see you.

Yeah, delighted to have you on a lot of titles there.

So I'm pleased to have someone like yourself on to talk about this vehicle technology in particular safety aspects of it.

But before we started we were talking a little bit and one of the things that you mentioned you kind of wanted to get across was the role instructors play in this.

So I thought let's start with that.

So what is the role instructors play?

I think instructors have a huge potential role to play in the development of automated vehicles.

So if I go back a step, you mentioned sort of some of my history there I worked when I started my career I was working at TRL looking at road safety and how we can reduce risk on the roads, looking at distraction, fatigue, alcohol, drugs, new technologies, road infrastructure and training.

And in that work that was also at the time you started to see the self driving car projects emerging, the DARPA challenges in the U.S.

these research programs where they were testing automated vehicles.

And I realized that automation had a potentially huge role to play.

A computer won't get drunk, it won't get tired, it won't get distracted.

There is the potential there for that to have a massive impact in reducing the number of crashes we see on the road.

So I was really pushing for that to be a research topic at TRL.

And I think they felt, oh yeah, we're, we're, we're kind of 98, 99% of the way to making a vehicle that can drive.

And me coming from a like a psychology and a human factors background, I was a bit more cautious because I think that step between making a vehicle able to detect its hazards around it and then move forwards and backwards, steer left, steer right, that's, that's fantastic, that's amazing.

But the step between that and being able to make a vehicle that can truly drive, you know, navigate in a complicated environment with pedestrians and cyclists, other traffic, 2 ton vehicle at high speed, that is a whole different level altogether.

And I think that is the gap that instructors help us bridge that gap between, you know, the sort of pure engineering of making a vehicle move and being able to drive, being able to participate in a complex social dynamic environment.

I'm intrigued by this, the idea of when we've got fully autonomous cars, that the role instructors will play there because, and this is an assumption on my part, but I'm assuming that when we get those self driving cars, you will still need to hold a license to sit in one of those behind a.

Wheel essentially, it would certainly change.

Right.

So if it's a vehicle that's designed with no steering wheel, no pedals, and is always driven by the system on board, then it's like a taxi, it's like a bus.

You won't need a license to operate that vehicle if you are purely a passenger.

But if you at any point could or have to take control, then I think you will still need license of some form.

Might be different to how it is today, but there will need to be some sort of certification to show you know what you're doing if you are going to take control of that vehicle.

But as we are now, do you think that where driving instructors maybe need to embrace more is that technological side?

Because I think back to when I learned to drive sort of 22 or 23 years ago, I think it would just knowing how the indicator worked was the extent of the technology I needed to know.

But there's obviously so much More now.

Do you think that we as instructors need to be embracing that more now and getting that across more?

Absolutely.

So I think we've got to be careful here about blurring the distinction between driver assistance systems and automation.

And I think the role instructors can play.

Right now it's about making sure drivers are aware that we don't have self driving vehicles at the moment.

Even though vehicles will do a lot of driving assistance to the point of even the Blue Cruise, the Ford system, that is a hands free driving assistance system.

So it will do adaptive cruise control and steer for you to the point you can take your hands off, but you are still the driver of that vehicle.

You are still required to be alert and attentive and ready to resume control.

So yeah, I think the role for instructors is making drivers aware of the support technologies that are there, but also the responsibilities that remain with the driver to make sure the vehicle is controlled safely.

So a couple of things I want to touch back on there because you mentioned like there's no self driving cars on the road.

And I first came across you on your course that you did for Copilot, which I advise all the instructors to go and check out.

And you said on there that there's no self driving cars on the road, no fully self driving cars on the road.

And that took me by surprise because I thought there was.

So I'm wondering, is that me sort of not understanding or is that a misrepresentation by some of the car companies or a bit of both potentially.

I think certainly there's a, there's a degree of, should we call it exaggeration, Terry, in terms of capability and aspiration actually.

So, I mean, I think we're sort of dancing around it.

But Tesla, of course they have a, a system that is, was called full self driving.

Now supervised full self driving.

And you know, if you're a layperson, you come to a system that says it's full self driving, that sounds like it's going to do all the driving for you.

But if you have that system, there are lots of checks and balances that, that you're required to sign up to, to say, yes, I am going to be alert and attentive while this system is in operation.

So the responsibility still sits with the person in the driving seat for safe control of that vehicle.

Ultimately, in the future, they want that system to truly be full self driving to the point where you don't have, you're not responsible for the vehicle, it is doing everything for you.

But we are not at that point yet some say we might never get to that point with Tesla in its current formation.

Let's see.

You know, they're certainly very ambitious about it, but no, we, there are no self driving vehicles for sale and in use.

Certainly in the UK at the moment.

In the US there is Waymo.

You can ride in a self driving vehicle and on a commercial basis, but that's not something you can buy as a consumer.

Do you think we will and are you willing to put a year on it, get to that point where we can have, there'll be cars on the road that we can go and buy, essentially an arm where, where we can have a nap while the car's driving us?

I think that will almost certainly happen.

I think that's very, very likely to happen in terms of putting a year on it.

I think there's a lot needs to happen in the technology to make sure the technology is capable of this legally.

I think the UK is doing a really good job in setting out the legal framework, but there's still lots of questions in there.

And that defines that an automated vehicle needs to operate at least as safely as a careful and competent human driver.

But no one's got a definition of what it means to be careful and competent.

We've got lots of case law where we can show that human drivers have fallen below the standard expected of a careful and competent human driver.

But we don't know what that threshold is to say something is behaving in a manner that could be considered careful and competent.

So there's a lot of work to do to be able to prove that a vehicle is operating in a careful and competent manner.

And if I were going to go to sleep in a, in a vehicle, I'd want to know that it will definitely be driven in a competent manner.

I mean, you said they've kind of started putting that legislation in is have they said, as the government said, that this is a test we will do to make sure it's driven in this way.

That's the next step.

Right.

So they, they, they haven't set out, they've set out that, that threshold, but they haven't said how that threshold can be met.

And, and that is, that's a work in progress that's coming over the next.

Year because it's interesting and you touched on this before, this idea of self driving cars being safer than people because as you mentioned, that, you know, we suffer with fatigue, fatigue, fatigue and we'll get ill and, you know, we'll have a drink or we'll be tired or, you know, this kind of stuff.

But computers don't, they don't get that.

If we were able to click our fingers now and make every, every car on the road self driving, would that massively reduce the amount of collisions on the road overnight, do you think?

Depending on the capability of the technology, yes.

The potential is there for sure.

You know, that ability to detect hazards and respond to them, to behave in a compliant manner.

You know, a lot of the collisions that happen on our roads are because drivers haven't been complying with the rules of the road.

So, yeah, there's definitely huge potential.

I think, you know, in an unpredictable environment, we're going to want to encourage people to walk and to cycle.

We're going to want to share our roads with cyclists, with motorbikes, with horse riders.

So all these things are going to add complexity, that is things that automated vehicles will have to be able to manage safely.

So, you know, we could completely eliminate collisions.

That's the ambition.

It's not going to happen overnight.

It's going to take some work.

But again, I think the role of instructors in bringing up that standard of driving performance, you know, the law says careful and competent.

Now, a vehicle could be careful, it could avoid all crashes, but if it's avoiding crashes by centimeters or millimeters, that doesn't feel like it's behaving in a competent manner.

And that ability to understand what it means to drive in a manner that's sympathetic to the actions and desires of other road users is really important.

And I think instructors can really help with that.

I mean, it's crazy where we are, it's crazy that we're thinking this, this technology is coming, but it's also crazy the technology we've got now.

I mean, I decide whether to say this not, but I will.

I always think back to the film I Robot and how.

I don't think you've seen that.

But whether the robot decides which life to save, depending on the percentage of risk they've got of drowning or whatever it is.

And it's, it's nuts.

But do you think there's, do you think this is remote reported properly in the media?

Now?

I don't necessarily mean sort of trade media if you like, because I think that's quite good with this stuff because it's, it's our niche, but in the broader media, do you think that this stuff is reported properly?

Reported properly is a tricky phrase there, Terry, and I'll tell you for why.

Because it makes me think of the smart motorway debate, right?

So smart motorways are statistically the safest roads in the country.

But if you asked someone on the street what they felt about smart motorways, they might have a different perspective.

And a lot of that is because of the coverage that they've had in the press.

And I can completely understand that.

You know, the incidents that have happened are, you know, terrifying that some, some tragedies have certainly happened and we need to prevent those in future.

Now that could happen with automated driving, right?

So automated vehicles, they might be, let's say, 99% safer than, than a human driven vehicle, but if that 1% of crashes that happen is things that a human driver would easily have avoided and it happens in completely unacceptable circumstances, that will get huge coverage.

You know, the bus queue of children waiting for the school bus.

If that was the collision that happened, that would be, of course, hugely tragic, but it would set back the industry by many, many years.

So, you know, that's part of making sure that these vehicles behave in a manner that is truly careful and competent.

And so these kind of crashes don't happen.

And the ones that do happen, we can explain that it was for good reasons, it was because it was avoiding something else that would have been even worse.

And being able to do that through data is where we need to get to do.

You know, I liken this because we.

We recorded an episode earlier this season around electric vehicles and one of the points we were talking about there was, was fires in electric cars and how there's to least the best of my knowledge, has never been death as a result of firing electric vehicle.

But there are, I think it was 26 last year in the UK and it's in combustion engine cars.

Sorry.

And the first time that happens in electric vehicle, I can just imagine the media coverage and I think that that's kind of what I'm thinking with this.

You know, when we get those autonomous vehicles that go wrong, the media coverage is going to be nuts.

But when we look at the media coverage that happens to the five people that die every day on the UK roads anyway, now it'll.

It'll be like chalk and cheese.

Do you think?

Yeah.

And this is the point about the difference between perception and reality.

You know, we want the reality to be true, but it's important that the perception is, is reflective of the reality as well, because perceptions drive behavior.

And I'm sure you know your listeners will be familiar with seeing motorways that have been converted to all lane running, drivers tending to stick to lanes 2, 3 and 4 and not go into one.

And they sort of informally created a hard shoulder because of that perception of risk and perception of wanting that safe harbor.

So yeah, we need to make sure that.

And there's a, there's a role for education in making sure people are aware of the safety benefits that could come.

And let's be clear about this, they're not guaranteed and we need to make sure that that is truly the case but to make sure those perceptions match up to reality.

And we've got really good stories.

I think people don't necessarily buy into stats, they buy into stories and how they feel about a new technology or innovation.

And we've got lots of good stories that explain how automated vehicles are helping to keep us safe.

I want to touch back on one other thing you said previously before I completely forget because you mentioned about the idea of getting more people on buses and public transport and walking, cycling, that type of stuff.

I know that's something you do a lot of research and work into as well.

And I mean just today like 10 minutes before we started recording, I was scrolling Facebook and in my community group there was a massive thread about the queue, the regular queue of traffic at a satellites.

And it was fascinating to me watching all these people complaining about it, about how they're stuck in it and how they can reduce it.

And I'm thinking you're the problem.

Everyone queuing in this is the problem.

We can't magically make fall ins appear.

The only way we're going to reduce that traffic is by being less often in a car.

And as an instructor this is something that I found hard to get my head around because it's.

And to be fair, it's something I've started talking a little bit about my lessons.

I would be really interested in your thoughts on this because as an instructor I want to teach people to drive.

I want them to have that as an option.

But I'm also trying to encourage them more to consider when they should be driving.

So I'm just wondering your thoughts now.

Do you think that's something we could be beginning to lesson source discussions around should you drive to the shops or should we walk if we can?

Yeah, that's a great point, Terry and my.

One of my ex TRL colleagues, Sean Hellman, who's still at the lab, he used to use a slide with a picture of a motorway.

And in the motorway you can see cars, you can see a coach, you can see a truck.

And he would ask the audience, who are the safest road users in this picture?

And of course, it was a trick question because in the background of the picture there's a train.

And the safest road users are the people using the train to get from their origin to their destination.

So, so, yeah, that, that is a really important point and I think about the post as well.

You say you're not stuck in traffic, you are traffic.

It's a really important point.

That said, you know, we are not going to eliminate driving overnight for sure.

There will always be people who need to drive for whatever reason.

And we'll also need professional drivers, the bus drivers, the coach drivers, the truck drivers, taxi drivers as well, for many years to come.

So, yeah, it's about the right tool for the right job based on the circumstances that are available to you.

And I think you're absolutely right, you know, educating people about when it's right to drive.

You know, do you really need to drive that half mile to the shop to pick up milk late at night?

Could you get a bike?

Could you walk?

If you don't feel safe, maybe it is right to drive.

So, yeah, make the right tool for the right job based on your circumstances.

Yeah.

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But for now, let's get stuck back into the show.

Something else you said earlier as well that I've heard you mention actually in a previous podcast and I know very little about it, I'll be honest.

And it was the Blue Cruise.

Can you tell me a little bit about this?

Yeah.

So Blue Cruise is a system on Ford vehicles.

I think it's only on the Mustang Mach E at the moment.

It's a subscription service and it's the only, as far as I'm aware, in the uk, they only hands free automated driving system that is requires you to be alert and attentive, but it will do adaptive cruise control.

So it's adjusting the speed of the vehicle and it will keep you in lane as well.

So you can truly sit back, but the vehicle will be monitoring you to make sure you are paying attention and you're not switching off, starting to attend to your phone or whatever else you do need to be attentive and monitoring what the vehicle's doing and ready to resume control should that become necessary.

Is that something that's going to become more common in more vehicles as we go along?

I think, I think yes.

I think it's a feature that people will come to appreciate in terms of feeling relaxed, in terms of feeling safe, that the vehicle is going to respond to the sorts of hazards that are around and it's part of that stepping stone towards higher levels of automation in future.

But one thing that does slightly concern me, and it's something that I think is underappreciated, but it's also very relevant to your audience here, I think, is if we've got vehicles that are responsible for detecting and responding to hazards, do we start to see some level of skill degradation in the people who are at the wheel.

So you've been in your blue cruise vehicle for three years and then you go back to a different vehicle, your lease ends and you get into a different vehicle that doesn't have this feature.

Will you be as aware and able to respond to hazards that emerge on the motorway if you've been allowing the vehicle to do that task for you?

So I think that's something we need to be aware of and something to keep a watch for that there isn't this kind of skill degradation as we do more and more automation of the driving task.

Well, it's a good point because it makes me think back to again, the presentation, the course you create for Copilot, because another interesting thing you said on that was when ABS was first brought in, you found, or it was found, that drivers were driving too close to the car in front because they felt almost Too safe or more safe because of the abs?

So is that kind of what you mean, almost breeding complacency or potentially breeding complacency because of those safety features?

Yeah, we're interesting folk, aren't we, humans?

We find these.

These sort of ways to game the system.

I suppose we can think of it.

And for sure, any new system that comes in, people will test it, people will push the boundaries.

And it's for engineers and human factors, people like myself to think about what are the ways in which people might game the system and how can we use that to our advantage, actually, how can we use that to make sure people are incentivized to do the right things as far as we're concerned in terms of safety and enjoyment of driving and not finding loopholes that are ways they can exploit the system or generate risk that we were trying to avoid?

I mean, it does work.

You know, I've spoke about this recently, but I know that in my car, when I've been driving for two hours, I get a little alert.

You know, it flashes up on the screen and it beeps and it's like, oh, you know, it's a.

Take a break.

I think it's somewhat along those lines.

I don't see it often because I normally take a break after 90 minutes, but it just.

Those little things kick us out of what we're doing.

But that kind of brings me on to another thing that I wanted to mention, which is touch screens, because I know that we're getting more manufacturers now.

Let me try and get the phrase this right.

Tell me if I'm wrong, by the way.

We're getting more manufacturers now that are kind of reducing the things that are available on touchscreens and making them more switches and buttons.

Because we've become, again, a custom.

Sorry.

We're now having to go through all these different screens to get to one thing, whereas we can just press a button for it while we're driving.

Am I right in that?

Yeah.

So you can imagine that the vehicle designers welcomed touch screens as an interface because it allowed them to put masses of functionality into a defined area that looks cool.

So you've got the aesthetic benefit, but also the complexity, the sophistication you can have within the vehicle through this single interface.

Plus, people are familiar with smartphones now.

They're used to navigating touch screens to access functionality.

But the difference with a smartphone is that is typically your focus when you're driving.

Your focus needs to be out there on the environment around you, your mirrors and everything.

Else.

So marrying those two things that desire to add functionality into the vehicle and to do it in a way that is attractive versus the demands of being a driver is the real challenge.

And my understanding is the NCAP tests, the Euro NCAP tests, they are going to move towards some of the key functions being in manual switches, again, rather than through the touchscreen, because, you know, we are.

We have multiple senses and if we can do things through different sensory modalities through touch, much easier to do that with physical buttons.

It's.

It's more compatible with maintaining attention on the driving task rather than having to switch your visual focus towards something that doesn't have that touch feedback through the.

Through the touchscreen.

So, yeah, I think that's a welcome step, to be honest with you.

I like touch screens.

I like that you can have all that functionality, but let's manage it in a way that keeps it simple, keeps it straightforward.

It allows the driver to interact in a way that minimizes that distraction and allows them to maintain attention on driving.

So I'm always honest with this stuff because I had a moment, shall we say, with this earlier this year.

It was back in May and I can remember it crystal clear because I was with another driving instructor, Les Hopkinson, and I press him on the touchscreen while I was driving and this officer almost bited my hand away.

He's like, I'll do it.

And he took over and it just made me realize, I wonder how long I've been doing that.

And it's not illegal, you know, to press the sat nav or whatever.

But it made me think I am now taking my focus of what I was doing and it's.

Do you think.

I mean, we come in very slightly off topic here, but do you think that's the mobile phone culture of, you got your mobile phone, you sat on yourself, you got your mobile phone there, if it beeps, you pick it up.

Do you think it's almost the same thing with a touchscreen?

You got your touchscreen there, if you see somebody, you press it.

Well, I mean, of course, with Android Auto and the interfaces that are linking between the car and the phone, that is almost extending the mobile phone interface into the vehicle.

And again, you know, exactly as you say, that sort of laser focus the smartphone has in keeping your attention is now permeating into the vehicle as well.

So again, that this is.

This has to be managed very carefully and the manufacturers know about this stuff and they recognize that they have to do this.

At the same time, they also want to sell vehicles that are attractive and give their customers this functionality, but it has to be done in a safe way.

Ultimately, automation will enable us to do that and engage however we want.

We'll be able to watch movies in the car, but we are not there yet.

And.

Yeah, so managing that process is, is what we need to do.

We spoke a little bit about the public perception, if you like, general public perception, and the feeling I get, especially with the, let's say, the older generation, my generation and above, they're not always welcoming of this technology.

You know, I think of speaking to my dad, who was in his 60s, and then my nephew.

I just talked to driver who was 18, and they've got very different differing opinions.

But it does seem like there's a lot of the general public that struggles to buy into this new, especially safety technology in cars.

Is that something you're seeing or is it anecdotal for me?

And if so, why do you think that is?

No, absolutely seeing it.

Yeah.

So if, you know, I read the car press and look at reviews and things and certainly seeing the reviewers having some degree of antipathy towards these systems as being nannying, being too intrusive in the driving experience.

And I think what that reflects is, you know, that the stats, everyone thinks they're above average as a driver.

And you know what I think about this.

And, you know, some days I'm a 10 out of 10, some days I'm a 2 out of 10.

I'm certainly, you know, I look back, this is something I'm fortunate to know.

Paul Ripley, you know, very famous driving instructor, someone who is described as God's chauffeur.

And he.

He's something that's.

He said that stuck with me is about reflecting on every drive you take look back and think about, were there things you could have done differently, Were there things you could have done better and, and how you might do better in future, you know, did you really need to overtake that cyclist before the traffic lights?

Did you really need to pull out into that gap that wasn't really there?

Those kind of things.

And what these systems are doing is almost forcing us to reflect on what we're doing.

So.

Beep, beep.

You've missed something there, haven't you, driver?

There's something you should have done differently or better.

So that kind of being forced to confront your own shortcomings as a driver is probably why some people find them to be, know, unwelcome, shall we say?

But I think that, again, that's, that's perhaps the role for the instructor here is to help people understand how those systems are helping and supporting and not there.

Sort of to criticize you as an individual driver.

Now, and just one final comment on that.

It's really important then that the system works in the way the drivers are expecting it to, because if it's doing things that you can see are definitely wrong, then that's when people start to lose trust in those systems and find them to be intrusive and not living up to expectations.

So, yeah, really important that the systems truly do work in the way people expect.

But then when they do work, people kind of can accept why they've chose to step in and the benefit they've provided.

You know, that's a really interesting point because my car has.

I always get this terminal wrong emergency brake assist.

So it's got the sensor at the front that detects something up ahead.

And it's only ever kicked in once, I believe, and unnecessarily.

But it thought it was correct.

I think the road was bending and there was a car that came really quickly from the left.

So the sensor picked up the car coming.

Think it was coming in front of the car and it kicked in.

Now, the student driving on that occasion then didn't buy into that at all because it's coming at an appropriate time.

But every other student that I've spoke to about it loves the idea of it.

Yeah.

So I suppose you're right.

But again, that's part of my job and our job as instructors to look at why that happened.

You know, potentially report it and then talk.

Talk through with the students to get that banging.

Because the one thing we don't want people doing is getting these cars with all these safety features and then turning off the safety features.

And is that something that's happening more than you'd like?

Yes.

I mean, I am aware of serious, serious crashes where the crash maybe wouldn't been avoided, but certainly would have been mitigated had a system on the vehicle been switched on and operating in the way it was designed to.

So, yeah, that.

That point about people losing faith, losing trust in the systems and then switching them off is really, really important because then we lose all the benefit and then.

And then, you know, even worse, your vehicle is carrying around the weight of this system.

There's the fuel penalty and all the kind of inefficiencies of that without getting the benefit of it.

So, yeah, really important a.

That the system is there and that it.

But then that it also works in the way people expect and come to trust it and use it effectively.

And I suppose if you go and buy that car that's got the five star euro and cap safety rate and then turn off the safety features is then no longer five star.

But I think that kind of ties in quite nice because I'm going to ask you about that.

Can you tell us a little bit about this euro end cap star rating, how that works and maybe what we should be looking for?

Yeah, so I mean Euro NCAP star ratings are about the protection the vehicle offers to the vehicle occupants and increasingly to other road users.

So it started out as sort of physical crash tests.

How well does your vehicle stand up to the impacts it might encounter in a collision and how does it protect the occupants?

And that moved into your just pure kind of structural strength rigidity of the chassis of the frame to systems within the vehicle like airbags and seat belt pretensioners that help in the event of a collision to make sure the injuries are minimized.

But what we're seeing now is the Euro NCAP ratings moving more towards systems that help avoid crashes in the first place.

So the emergency braking systems, the pedestrian avoidance, the cyclist avoidance, those kind of systems that can detect and protect other road users are increasingly part of the star rating system.

And that will continue.

Things will continue in that vein, I think to move more towards avoidance rather than only that protective aspect.

This might be an obvious question.

So Paul, this 21, listen, if it is, but is the, is that star rating something we should be really considering when buying a car?

Should we really be prioritizing the highest star rating we could get?

Yeah, it's a great point.

People have to cut their cloth right, according to their, to their means.

But you know, that safety factor is certainly something I would be considering.

One of the features you weigh up, you know that is it the right size, is it the performance you're expecting, what's the interface is like in the vehicle?

But that fundamental, you know, when the chips are down and you really need it, that is the thing that might be the difference between, you know, serious injury and mild injury or even worse.

So, so yeah, I think it has to be in there.

And the Euro NCAP website is very good.

You can look back to the star ratings that were awarded to vehicles into history, you know, back into the first ratings that were issued.

Now of course the rating system has gotten stricter.

So a five star vehicle today is obviously much safer than a five star vehicle from 20 years ago.

But you can look at the relative performance of that vehicle at the time you're that you're looking at and see is it one that was considered as safe as it could be at the time.

And I think that has to be a consideration for anyone choosing their vehicle.

Yeah.

And you mentioned before about moving from the occupancy protection to prevention rather than protection.

And you also touched before you mentioned the phrase of the nanny state, the idea of people feeling like the nanny state of road safety.

But again, going back to the presentation you did for co pilot, one of the most interesting parts for me was when you put two graphs up and it showed the decline in road death with like an overlying graph of the introduction of different technology and it almost mirrors it.

So when I think of a nanny state, if you like, that that's where it's necessary because it shows directly that the road death correlates directly to technology, doesn't it?

Yeah.

And there's a, there's an interesting kind of relationship between the regulators and the manufacturers.

Right.

The manufacturers want to sell as many cars as possible.

The regulators want to keep the public safe.

And so the regulators, they want to introduce as many of these systems that they can.

But it has to be done in a way that makes sure the manufacturers can continue to sell vehicles and do so in a cost effective way that, you know, if all the manufacturers go out of business, then that, that's not a good position either.

So a huge amount of work is done.

And again, that's something that my colleagues at TRL are very experienced in doing is around what are the systems that we can introduce and what will the cost benefit be in terms of road safety that making these systems mandatory will have on the level of safety on our roads.

And, and so we get into this collaboration between regulators and manufacturers to show what are the systems that are going to deliver that safety on the roads for us.

And over time things get better and better.

And certainly the statistics bear that out.

There's lots more we still need to do.

There's certainly more that instructors can be doing around understanding of these systems to make sure we do truly get the most out of them.

For sure.

Yeah.

And I was pondering this while we came on today because I was, I was looking at the save system and the five different components of it and try to think which one has the biggest potential to reduce the amount of road death.

And I look at the way we teach people to drive and I would actually say it's that, but I think that the bigger impact from that will take a lot longer to come into fruition.

Whereas when we look at Something like the safe, safe vehicles.

I think that's the one that's going to have the biggest impact in a short time frame.

I'll be interested in your opinion on that.

Yeah.

So your listeners are fully aware of the safe system, I'm sure, but we're talking about safe vehicles, safe roads, safe speeds, safe users and post crash, post crash care.

So how do you manage the aftermath of an incident?

So across those five categories, that is the called the safe system and that is an approach that was developed in Sweden in the 90s with the aim of eliminating death and serious injury.

Comes on the premise that no one should die or suffer serious injury in going about their day to day business using the roads.

And yeah, a lot of my work for National Highways has been thinking about what are the best interventions that National Highways could introduce using this safe system approach.

Now the national highways, they look after our strategic roads.

So they can do a lot with safe roads and they can do a lot with safe speeds.

But in the other categories, safe vehicles, safe users, post crash, it's more about collaborating with other stakeholders, other organizations, other participants in the road system to get them to play their part.

And certainly I would see instructors playing a huge part in that safe road user category, making sure people who come to the roads are, you know, fully trained, they've thought about their vehicle, you know, doing those, the vehicle checks.

And a lot of incidents on the network are down to tires, under inflated tires or low tread or whatever else.

Seeing a lot of aquaplaning with the weather we've been having lately.

So yeah, I think there's huge things that can be done in that safe user category.

Ultimately the system is a social system.

It is driven by people and it's people that make it safe.

Right.

And if we can make sure they're doing the right things, then that's a huge part of making sure everyone gets to their destination safely.

I love the answer and I also appreciate explaining the safe system because I probably should have done that.

So thank you for picking up my slack there, but I want to kind of finish off with to ask your thoughts on the learner's first car because I will hold my hands up here again and be honest.

Probably up until the start of this year, my advice was always buy the cheapest car you can.

You know, it was the advice I was given by the cheapest car you can get the cheapest insurance, drive for two years, then buy somewhat better, so you got cheaper insurance.

My advice now is more around not necessarily buying the most expensive, but Buying the safest car you can.

So I SUPOSE It's a two part question.

What, what advice would you give to us to give to learners around their first car and is there any maybe safety features in particular that you would be recommending that they get in that first car?

Yeah, that's a great question.

So it's, most cars today will have ABS I think, anti lock braking system.

Of course that's going to be very helpful in maneuvering in a tricky situation.

I have been looking into this a little bit, Terry, and anyone's going to have a budget, but even in the kind of up to 5k range for a first car, some of the systems that are available now that have come through as a result of these regulations are really, really impressive.

So that emergency braking system you talked about, even down to having reversing cameras and things like that as a Suzuki Swift with a lot of these features I saw recently in that kind of price bracket.

So yeah, I think, you know, let's not just look at the performance figures but look into that column of the safety features that are included within the vehicle and when you're making a choice about what vehicle to buy, just factor that in.

I think that's all we can do, isn't it?

Don't ignore that as being an important element of your purchasing decision and I hope it isn't the case.

But it might be the difference between walking away from a crash and not doing so.

So yeah, I think making sure that it's part of the purchasing decision is really important and I think that's probably the role of the instructor, isn't it?

To say these are the sorts of features to look out for that might be the important difference between one model or another.

Yeah.

But again, going back to the safe system you mentioned earlier, that's the role of safe system.

So if one area fails, so if we make a mistake as a driver, the car will protect us or the road will keep us safe or the speed or that type of it.

So I suppose that's where the safe system comes into it as well.

But I just want to take a moment to say thank you for today.

I've really enjoyed this conversation.

It's, it's not necessarily gone quite the way I expected and I mean in a good way.

I've fully enjoyed finding out some of this stuff.

So big thank you for joining me John, to take them on.

Want to tell people where they can find you if they want to find out any more.

Thank you, Terry.

No, I've enjoyed the conversation as well.

And you're happy to come on again in future?

Yeah.

My name is Nick Reed and website is www.co.uk Excellent.

But no big thank you for joining me today Nick.

It's been a pleasure.

Thank you Terry.

So a big thank you to Dr.

Nick Reed there for joining me on today's episode.

I really enjoyed talking to Nick.

It was a really interesting conversation.

It did take a different turns what I planned initially but I enjoy that.

I like that.

I love it when episodes do that.

And just to to make you aware, I kind of touched on it in the show there.

I I first came across Nick on Co pilot.

Now you'll hopefully have heard me talk about co pilot before and it's this amazing platform that's been sold by James Evans.

It's not aimed at instructors but it's aimed at the road safety sector and we as instructors are part of that.

Now just a reminder that as driving instructors we get a 40% discount on copilot.

So again I will include a link in the show notes for this but there's some wonderful courses over there, there's some wonderful people over there, there's some wonderful resources over there.

So as well as checking out what Dr.

Nick Reid's got to offer, also go and check out Co pilot.

But I also want to take a moment to plug the instructor podcast Premium.

Let's be honest, that's what I'm doing right now.

Because one of the things that I have spoken about in the premium membership lately is giving back because it's what I constantly look to do.

Because that membership has never been about earning as much money as possible.

That membership has always been about the more it grows, the more I can put back in, the more people sign up, the more time I will have put back in.

And we've got some awesome stuff lined up for next year.

So I would love if you came and tried out.

There is currently a few different ways you can try it out.

We have a one weeks free trial.

We've got a 33% discount on your first month's payment.

And just to clarify with that, when you sign up you can leave at any point.

So if you do sign up and decide it's not for you, then leave.

I have no problem with that.

It's not going to be for everyone.

But if you are a hard working driving instructor that is willing to put the time and effort in to get better, then it's definitely for you.

But if you're someone that really wants to invest, you could sign up for a year.

There's a 16% discount on a year's membership, so check out www.the instructorpodcast.com or use a link in the show Notes to go and find out more about the Instructor Podcast Premium.

And last, but by no means least, I want to remind you about my drive time and firstly express my gratitude around the sponsoring the show.

I'm always grateful and one of the privileges I've had this year was recently getting to spend a good chunk of time with Dan Hill.

Now I'm getting to know Dan Hill quite well just from talking to him on Zoom and stuff like that.

But we recently closed the bar.

Now I don't drink, but we did, we closed the bar at the Holiday Inn in Coventry and it was an absolute delight.

Getting to pick his brains and find out what goes in his brain, what goes on in his mind, and just listening to what he does for the industry and what he does for my drive time and for driving instructors is just incredible.

So before we even look at how good my drive time is, I just wanted to give a shout out to Dan there.

But one of the things that I really like about my drive time is that it's so functionable on the website.

So you've got the app and you can do, you know, everything on there you need to your students, but you can also come home and whack it on computer and get stuck in.

And I find that so much easier to sit there and type things out rather than doing it on my phone or whatever.

So the fact that we've got those options there, I absolutely love that aspect of my drive time and I would highly encourage you to go and check it out and you can find that@mydrivetime.co.uk but for now, let's just keep raising standards.

The Instructor Podcast with Terry Cook talking with leaders, innovators, experts and game changers about what drives them.