Mike Lee, founder of MindShift Labs, talks about making up his own minor, not getting out of bed for Kobe Bryant, why everything we want exists in the present moment, being pushed by pain or pulled by vision, the advantage of diversifying the portfolio of your identity and self-worth, the virtues of detachment and nonjudgement, why everything is driven from getting crystal clear on vision and purpose, and putting the mission over the medium.

Welcome back Action Catalyst listeners.

Today's guest has a tremendous background in both psychology

and sports, having spent time on the court with elite NBA stars

such as Steph Curry, and he's blended that experience with

neuroscience and practical exercises to help leaders face

challenges for navigating the pandemic to employee retention,

company culture and more. He's also a sought after speaker and

founder of Mind Shift Labs. And his name is Mike Lee. Thank you

for making the time for this, Mike. Where are you Zooming in

from?

LA.

Originally from Wisconsin?

I am originally from Wisconsin. Yeah, right in the

middle of state the middle of absolutely nowhere growing up,

you had to drive I don't know back then the roads weren't the

same. So we had to go is a good three and a half, maybe four

hours depending on you know, visit my grandma or parents

driving along to get to Milwaukee or Minneapolis. So how

do you What's your connection to this?

The nutshell version? When I was in college

at University of Maryland, I sold educational books door to

door.

So did my buddy. What was it? The company?

Southwestern.

Yeah. Oh, is this the same? Same organization? No way.

No way. So yeah, one of my buddies did the same thing. So

you're familiar with the small town Wisconsin.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, that's where I grew up.

Summer sausage and cheese curds. Man. It was great.

It's great when you're that age. Today, it takes a

toll.

You've got to connect the middle of nowhere

Wisconsin, and you studied a concentration in basketball

entrepreneurship.

You went deep into my bio. Where did you... I don't

even know where that's listed anymore.

Zach's like a ninja at pulling information up.

Yeah, I can talk about that a little bit. Yeah, for

sure. I'm talking about that a long time. But yeah, I think

it's a great lesson. Actually. Honestly, there's some there's a

good lesson out of it. So probably like my junior year in

college, I realized that I was never going to get a job. It

started my basketball camp, my summer basketball camp. We

started with one camp small town to Wisconsin, like we've been

talking about. It kept growing. And we we had 100 kids show up

the first year town at 15,000 people. The second year was we

had over 200 kids. Third year was 300 kids and I just I knew I

wasn't gonna get a job. So my advisor was just very aware of

what I was going to where it comes from. When you have a

degree in psychology. At the school, you also have to have a

minor or a concentration. And so what he'd let me do because he

was I think he was in charge of the department was he let me

essentially create my own minor. And he let me create it in

basketball, entrepreneurship, and I picked all these different

classes that would help me in this career that I was creating

kind of Otter nothing I mean, now today, you can pick up a

rock and throw it you'll hit a basketball trainer that's that's

working with kids back then you nobody's really, really doing it

like we were doing it. And so he saw that and realize that T

should prepare me for real life not going to, you know, get in a

job and working somewhere. And so that's kind of where that

came from, yeah he was awesome.

Yes. Graduating from what I know around '06, but

in '05, you also founded the Wisconsin playmakers basketball

club.

Yeah, so in 2003, a buddy of mine, and he were

talking and like I was talking about earlier, I grew up in a

town in middle of nowhere, right. And we wanted we just

wanted to run a basketball camp. And we got a gym, got some

coaches together. I printed flyers on my I designed a flyer

in Microsoft Word on my mom's computer, printed it out. We

just took it around town everywhere we set it out the

high school coaches, you know, I'm dating myself, but we you

know, we mailed it. You know, the first year was our kids

second years to our kids. Bam, by the third year, we had 300

Kids and at the time, I actually thought I want to coach college

basketball. And I realized that I wanted to coach college

basketball, that my best avenue was not going and being a

manager doing laundry, cleaning the floor at some division one

school and trying to work my way up. My best way was to

essentially create my own brand outside of the college

basketball world, and then leverage that to get into

coaching college basketball. I wanted to be in the gym. I

wanted to work with kids. I didn't want to spend my time

doing the managerial janitorial stuff with a you know, college

basketball program. And that just kind of evolved. We started

working with kids from Central northern Wisconsin where there

were no programs there were you know, you had the drive, like I

was talking about earlier to Minneapolis or Milwaukee to get

access to these types of programs. And that's so that's

We created this club for. And I just believe that these kids had

an opportunity. Some of these kids with the right train the

right work the right skills and resources that they can play at

the same level. And that's what happened. And we had kids that

went out to play, NCAA Tournament get drafted in the

NBA Draft two game winning shots in the NCAA Tournament. It just

was a it just evolved. That's something that I look back on.

And that's what we did, then, like, we just stay focused on

the little things. And we just focus on them day after day

after day after day, and trusted in the process.

Do you feel like it was the reps doing some of

that coaching with the kids that helped form some of what you

deliver on stage and talk to people about? Talk to me a

little bit about how you get from where you were doing that

to what you share on stage today.

There's definitely some of that no question about

it. Being involved in sports, since you know, eight, nine

years old, you kind of the fish in the water. And you don't

realize you take for granted a lot of lessons you take for

granted a lot of the mindsets and the things that the belief

systems and things that you have to instill in yourself, and

instill in the people that you're working with the players

that you're working with, in order to be at an elite level.

And I think I took that for granted. And so I definitely

these are definitely things that translate to the business space

to being a better leader to being a high performer. No

question about it. But really, the the transition came when I

you know, we had built this company in Milwaukee, and but I

always dealt with depression my whole life. I used to get super,

super depressed in the winters in Wisconsin, not getting out of

bed till three or four o'clock in the afternoon. Global

pressure. I mean, it was brutal. I mean, my my barometer was if

I'm aching out of bed, and I imagined that somebody called me

and said Kobe Bryant is at your facility right now and he wants

to get a workout in. And that doesn't excite you and you don't

want to get out of bed, then you're definitely in a going

through a depressive state. Yeah. And so it just got to a

point where I decided that I cannot take another winter here,

I just cannot take another winter in Wisconsin. And I

picked up and I had moved out to LA purely for the weather. And I

decided to get off an antidepressant medication that

had been on for about 14 years. And getting off of it was one of

the I shouldn't say one of it was beat up this thing that I

had ever gone through in my life. There are there's board

certified doctors at UCLA that are that are now comparing the

withdrawal symptoms of some of these medications to getting off

of heroin. Wow. And to get off of it, I decided to commit to a

daily mindfulness meditation practice. And after a couple

months of consistent practice, I realized why elite athletes like

Kobe, white luminaries like Oprah and CEOs, like Steve Jobs

all attributed some form of a meditation practice to their

level of success. It gave me the ability to be present to be

fully present in the moment. And I knew as a former athlete, and

coach and everything that we want exists in the present

moment, being in a state of flow exists in the present moment

being in the zone exists in the present moment, the connection

that you have to create with the people that you're leading

exists in the present moment. You want to show up with empathy

that exists in the present moment, everything that we want,

as a leader, as a high performer, as an entrepreneur,

exists in the present moment. And so I realized that that at

that point, I had a deeper purpose in life. And instead of

building basketball players, it was the build people on to build

leaders. And that's one of the inflection points from where

I've gone from basketball space to what I'm doing today.

I love that story. Because it starts with self

application, right? It's like, oh, no other people need this

resource. It starts with no, I needed it, right. And then as an

extension of that I can equip others, but what gave you the

belief? Not many people just go, Hey, I'm going to move out to LA

with no network and just randomly start a whole new

business that I feel really confident. Because there's so

much associated risk with the idea of relocating and building

something from the ground up. Talk about that new idea a

little bit more and getting Mind Shift Labs up and running.

Well, there's there's a couple things, I think, yeah,

I think Tony Robbins says we either we either change because

we're in so much pain, or because we have a compelling

vision. We're either pushed by pain or we're pulled by a

compelling vision. And as you know, I'm not even getting into

the worst of the worst, but you know, when you are can't get out

of bed so three or four o'clock in the afternoon. Sometimes

you're pushed to make a decision, even if it doesn't

seem rational. Another inflection point was I will was

going through this period of getting off of getting off a

medication, there was the acute withdrawal symptoms for several

months. And then there's what's called the post acute withdrawal

symptoms, which are where these medications shut down your

natural serotonin production. And so when you get off of them,

your body is not producing any serotonin. So after I was

completely off was actually worse, a good three and a half

years, or I'm going with that as it is I was trying to make sense

of all this. I knew given the withdrawal. So there was no way

I was going back on something like that incredibly emotionally

unstable. And so I was watching, I am not your guru at Tony

Robbins, but I know he's kind of a divisive person. Some people

love them, some people hate them. But they asked, Why do you

keep doing this? You have houses all across the world, you could

have quit 10 years ago, why do you keep doing this? And he

said, I have an insatiable desire or an insatiable desire

to alleviate suffering for as many people as I possibly can in

my lifetime. And I just started to cry like crazy, because I

that gave my pain and suffering purpose, because I knew that

everything that I was learning, the internal skills, the

emotional resilience, the self awareness, all of these things,

I was going to be able to I was building this massive toolkit

that I'd be able to take and then teach to other people.

That's awesome. And it's true. I mean, the it's

so difficult to give coaching and guidance to others, if you

don't have the empathy of having been there yourself. Right. And

so some of the best coaches I know, are people that have had

some of the darkest moments because they can go there, right

with clients. So I totally appreciate that. So for the

listeners on the podcast, I mean, you've worked with some

really outstanding athletes. You know, Steph Curry is on your

website, what are some of the things that have translated

really well from from your personal experience, and it

makes these things and when I say things, I guess what I'm

asking for is, you know, what's the strategy? What are some

ideas you you share that have been effective?

I'd love to share something with Steph because

it's something that I'm still working on today. It's something

that I learned from him just being or being able to be around

him at his for skills academy that he ran, then being able to

stay in touch though in bed, you know, go into pregame workouts

when he was in LA. And in Milwaukee. The short story is I

brought a kid with me one year to watch Steph go through a

pregame workout, a kid that was working with our basketball

company, and the conversation that unfolded with between this,

this kid and stuff, I realized that yeah, Steph put a ton of

time in on the court. He's passionate about the game. But

he did define his self worth by his performance on the

basketball court. He was having this conversation with with this

kid about friends about school about his family, other

interests outside of basketball, I realized that that stuff

defines his self worth by the totality of his human experience

by how he is as a husband, a father, an activist, and

entrepreneur. And that takes pressure off and when he steps

out on the court, and this is what allows him to be in this

state of flow that allows him to play with so much joy, freedom,

gratitude, and creativity because he goes one for 10 For

the three point line, or nine for 10. From the three point

line, when he walks off the court, he's going to feel the

same way about himself. And so this is what what allows him to

drop into the present moment where like I was talking about

before, right? The present moments where everything that we

want in life in business exists, right, it's in the present

moment, locking in on that, that task at hand, his belief that I

am more than an athlete allows him to do that. And I think

that's a lesson that we can all all take into any area of life.

I'm more than an entrepreneur, I'm more than a speaker, I'm

more than a podcast host I'm more than a, whatever it is. It

allows us to take some of that that weight off that pressure

off the standards and the expectations that we place on

ourselves that help us get to the top and also be the things

that make us fall off the mound. And so I think it sounds

counterintuitive that we would place our identity in a variety

of things, but it actually I think it makes us better in all

areas.

Yeah. If you're a parent and your kid is your

entire life where that kid graduates and doesn't really

quote unquote need you as much anymore. It tears parents up,

right? If you're, you're an athlete, and that's your entire

box like it is for so many college athletes. And so there's

so much merit I think to everybody that listens to the

more elaborate your boxes with where confidence is spread out

between family and health and all these different interests

and things that you've developed. It creates a lot more

of a foundation if you if if and when you lose one of those

spots. Since it doesn't absorb the whole thing.

100% yea. And it's a tough thing. What's really tough

is when you're so passionate about something to separate

yourself from it, we're so attached is not the right word,

intertwine. We're so intertwined with our work, as you know,

especially if you are an entrepreneur, and this business

is something that you birth, like, it's your child. Like,

it's so it's really difficult to do that. But I think there's a

lot of power in it when you do.

You know, it's got some, I guess, relatability to

like that Zen culture of like, it's not detachment from

everything in life, but being careful to not put too much

attachment and interweave too much of yourself and things. I

mean, is that part of what you believe or agree in somewhat.

100%, I am working on that every single day non

judgment and detachment, I really want when an event

happens, like just being completely detached from it, and

and not judging it, I really don't know, I think it's hard to

describe this without coming off as being a victim, one of my

beliefs that I hold and and I truly try to apply this in

everything that I do. And that's I know nothing, right. And it's

coming from a place of humility, but also just complete

detachment from from expectations for results from

material things for relationships, and it's more so

coming from it sounds cold, it sounds like, you know, you're

not Oh, you're not emotionally invested in anything. It's not

that I'm not emotionally invested in things, I'm just

psychologically try to detach from an expectation of an

outcome, I guess, is the best way to put it. Because I think,

you know, I can't tell you how many things I've worked on in my

life where I have, I've worked insanely hard at something, and

it just did not come to life. But there are also things that

that just kind of came through that I had feel like I had no

influence on it, right. And so just really coming from that

place of detachment, I think is super, super powerful. And, and

the reason it's powerful is it allows you to stay centered, it

allows you to stay grounded, it allows you to stay in the

present moment, right? If we get super attached to a future

outcome that's going to drive our mind so far to the future

that it takes us off of what we can actually control in the

present moment. Right. And then if the outcome does not

manifest, and we are super attached to it, now we are stuck

in the past. And we're also out of the present moment. So I

think there's there's a there's a lot of power in in the

practice of detachment and non judgement.

Yeah. So talk about like functionality,

because knowing this stuff, you gotta meet people where they're

at, right, and I'm assuming doing the work that you do at

that level, and you're getting with people that haven't

experienced any of that, that don't necessarily share that

core belief set before they start working with you. So what

are some things that you do in the beginning of a relationship

to kind of open them up to explore.

Such a great question, it comes down to awareness, just

really being aware of where they're at being able to see the

next step for them, and not taking them, you know, if they

only need to go one step not trying to take them eight steps,

because that's where you're at? I think there is some ego

involved in that. It's like, well, this is this is where I'm

at, and this is the knowledge that I have in this moment that

is relevant for me, and and I, the ego, like I had to achieve

this or go through this or whatever it is to get to this

level. So I should be, I should be teaching at this level.

Right? When the reality of is it's not about you, it's about

them. And you might have to scale back to make things timely

and relevant and actionable for where they are at in this

moment. And so I think it comes down to awareness and getting

out of your ego.

Yeah. So how do you share some of this message,

some of your message, is an application and leadership that

helped them change their approach to working with their

people.

I think the first thing is getting clear on vision

and getting clear on purpose. I think everything is driven from

those two things ethic when we get crystal clear on those that

can drive the process to bring bring those things to life and I

think especially in in today's world, getting crystal clear on

your purpose and your why is it's just so so important. If I

didn't have purpose and meaning over the past, just you know

what, what everything that I've kind of shared you I don't know

where I would be to be honest with you like I was in some

really, really bad places. But But I had a connection to

something bigger than myself, I had some sort of why. And the

research shows that having a clearly defined purpose,

improves your motivation improves focus, and improves

your resilience. And so I think as much as it's important to get

clear on that, to get to the next level to bring this vision

to life, it is even more important to get clear on it for

when you go through adversity. Because when you go through

adversity, you need a vision to rely upon, you need a why,

because you're going to get knocked down, things are not

going to go as planned, the strategy is not going to go from

A to B, B to C, C to D, like you had written out, your five year

plan is not going to work. It's more serious, you know, six to

12 month plan in today's world. And so getting getting clear on

the why, and then being open to how that actually manifests,

right? And a perfect example, I guess is is with COVID. And

hopefully we don't have to go through anything like this

again. But you know, the reality of it is we're going to go

through something like something's going to happen,

right? And so a lot of service based industries that we're

working with people in person or the fitness industry, the

speaking industry is a great example. You had to go back.

Yeah, I can't be with people in person right now. But what is

the impact that I want to make? And what avenue what, what

medium can I use in order to get to the end result to get to the

impact? And I think knowing your purpose allows you to focus on

not so much be attached to the process of the impact, but the

impact itself? If that makes sense.

Yeah. And I think about college, or high school

students where they're going through, a lot of them went

through a massive depressive period during COVID. Because

they were isolated. I mean, and so I guess, you know, if you

have one, what would be kind of an action that you would

suggest, whether it's, you know, a college athlete that maybe

just got injured, and it's going through that kind of function,

reprocessing their future, it's, it's figured out a new vision,

but what what are some other actions that maybe you suggest

to someone that's pulling themselves out of one mindset

into a healthier mindset?

I got a lot of things that are coming to my mind,

because I think you know, a lot a lot of people go through

number number one like talking about for get get clear on a

vision, get clear on a why. Second thing is to just pay, you

know, try to operate with a beginner's mindset from the

standpoint of try to let go of this identity that you had in

the past and your passion from the past that maybe is maybe

it's just simply no longer possible. Maybe it is an injury,

that career ending injury, just it's just simply not possible

anymore. Probably come from it from a beginner's mindset from

the standpoint of just being really aware of what your

interests are. Maybe it's something that you were

interested in, in high school, but you were just so dedicated

to basketball or to football, or whatever it is that you just

couldn't couldn't pursue it. Right. It was just not you had

to braid one thing for the other pay attention to what just your

interests are, what were you're interested in, what did you

maybe want to do that you had to sacrifice? I don't think I feel

like I'm kind of lucky from the standpoint that that it was

clear for me. For some people it's not, I think one of the big

things to keep in mind is you don't always have to be

operating at this deeper level of purpose. But what you need to

do is you need to operate with a deep level of intention with

everything that you do. And so I think, you know, that takes a

little bit of the pressure off. I think there you know, there's

a lot a lot of people in the self help space leadership

space, everything is like you got to find your purpose, find

your purpose, find your why. Right. And it's like it's not it

comes when it comes and it's really important to give

yourself the permission to not have it figured out yet. I feel

like everything that I've done in my life has been here was a

pain point. I solved this, I figured it out. And now I'm

teaching somebody else to go through the same thing that I

went through. And so look at what are some pain points in

your life? What are some things what have you had to go through?

What are the lessons that you've learned? And now how can I use

this as a way how can I teach others how to go through the

same thing? Because if you went through it, somebody else went

through it and you probably have a unique perspective on on it

that is going to be able to connect with somebody else and

that's going to be fulfilling right art of purpose is finding

what's fulfilling. Well, what's fulfilling is, is you know,

being of service and helping other people out find find At a

pain point that you want to solve, figure out how to how to

go through it yourself and teach others to do it. That's a great

place to start, as you know, give yourself permission to not

have it figured out and to look at some pain points in your life

that you had to solve, and that you've learned something from

and you can teach to other people.

Love that. We're going to end this with just

spitball questions that are somewhat short answer, just a

piece of technology that you feel you've used. Maybe it's an

app on your phone that's kind of helped in some of these ways. Is

there anything you'd recommend?

I know, you said, short answer. I mean, up to

number one, A is fine. If you want to dive into talking about

meditation a lot in the beginning, you want to dive into

into meditation, get an app, you have to have a guided audio

experience, especially when you first start out reading about

it. And then trying to practice it or not having a guide is

incredibly frustrating. And you're going to quit because

it's going to be too challenging. So find a guided

app, let's face it, great. That's what I use. Second thing

is I don't talk about this a lot. But there's an app called

Focus timer. It's an app for it's a desktop app. I don't know

if they have it for your phone or not. But it's a desktop apps

for Mac for sure. Maybe for PC. And when you have a task that

you need to complete, we need like some sort of psychological

triggers, right? It's like when I was coaching, basketball

players, every drill that we did, our goal had had to hit

that goal within a certain timeframe, right, and it creates

psychological, it's a psychological trigger to get you

to lock in and get you to focus, right? So a focus timer and set

a time to complete certain tasks. I think it'll help help

you level up your focus.

Productivity. Yeah. The last question is this

one piece of advice that you would give yourself at the age

of 21. Knowing everything you have now.

Don't be so hard on yourself. It's all working out

the way it's supposed to. And the view every adversity as a

catalyst for growth, and not look at something that's

happening to you look at it as something that's happening for

you, and lean into that challenge that adversity with a

growth mindset. Because what you learn from that experience is

something that you're going to be able to teach and the more

you become, the more that you can give. And if you're

providing value for people, you're not gonna have to worry

about anything in your life.

I think those last few sentences were the perfect

way to end a great interview. So thank you for making the time

for this Mike, it was really good.

Yeah, thanks for having me on. We'll continue the

conversation soon.