In this episode of Your Practice Mastered, James Hansen returns to drop more value bombs. We dive deep into innovative review strategies, team motivation, and the impact of numbers on law firm growth. Discover how to leverage global resources while maintaining a positive company culture. 

If you're ready to transform your practice and drive success, don't miss this insightful conversation with a law firm owner making waves in the industry. Tune in for actionable tips and inspiration!

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MPS: Hey, law firm owner. Welcome to the Your Practice Master Podcast. We're your hosts. I'm MPS 


Introduction and Welcome 


Richard James: And I'm Richard James. 


Revisiting Key Topics with James 


Richard James: And Michael, house, you know, fortunate are we, that today, we get to have a second conversation with somebody that just dropped so many value bombs the first time we talked to him. James is with us again today. James, welcome to show or welcome back to the show. We had such a great conversation. 


We so much interaction and comments and feedback from people who saw that first interview that we thought we'd have you back and unpack some of the ideas we talked about back then a little deeper. Sound good? 


Richard James: [00:01:00] Ha ha ha ha ha. 


Yeah, yeah. 


MPS: He's preparing for Halloween and I appreciate that. We gotta get ready, ready to go. We're the countdown's on. We're down to, uh, less than two weeks away, so, James. Like Rich said, we had such a fun conversation last time and everyone else loved it too. we talked a little bit about non attorney ownership in Arizona and then client experience. and then we were talking a little bit pre show today. And, so the value bombs are not going to stop. I know that for a fact, because we just got a little bit more insight on things. 


Innovative Review Strategy 


MPS: one of the things you threw out pre show was, this review strategy you started implementing with the team and there's even nuggets within that, that you mentioned that I think are powerful in themselves. 


So talk to us a little bit about how that came to be. 


I just don't think that, it's not worth it to me to put that on the line. I've been strategizing a lot with team. One thing we did that really worked pretty good to get consistent reviews every day, a few every day, was, we get pay consultations for family law. So, if the potential client comes in and they don't retain at time of consult, what we do is we offer to refund their consultation fee for the review. So, essentially, we're paying for the review in that way, but it's, they leave a genuine review. And so, the front desk, the receptions up front, they're all on top of that and they get paid a little bit for doing it. 


So, they're incentivized to do it. So, that's what we started doing but what I realized is, the more locations that you need to feed reviews for, especially, as I was saying with new practice areas, it's challenging. So, I had a thought, I'm sure it was someone else's the idea that I stole. I don't know, I'm not very original. 


Of having a challenge, a competition, and creating milestones. So, like, milestone is if you get 10 reviews, you get 20 reviews, so on and so forth. 


Quarterly Events and Team Building 


And then we go have fun, whether it's golf or whether it's go karts or something like that. So, We rolled out this review challenge, which was for the month of August and September. And within that period of time, we got 462 verified Google reviews to various locations. So, we, we have, I don't know, 16 or 17 different Google business profile locations. 


And so, we said, there's five that count for this review challenge, if you get reviews and the other ones, you get the standard compensation bonus for that. But these ones, if you hit these milestones, so milestone one was like 10 like the house highest milestone was 80 reviews, and we don't count filter reviews. 


And I think, we had four people that are a little over 80. So, my recommendation was, Hey, have a couple of insurance reviews in there in case they get filtered, you don't want to be 79, you don't want to just miss it by one review. So, that was phenomenal. Since we started doing that, our injury Google Business Profiles, we're getting 5 to 6 new consults and you a hundred percent of those. 


to new clients a month, which before, we weren't getting anything but for internal referrals. And so, it was a phenomenal thing, It will cost us some money, but so far it's been good. 


Richard James: There is so much, Oh my gosh, we could do an entire masterclass on just that, like, two minute statement that you just gave us. So, Wow. If you're listening to this, if you're that law firm owner, that is, 2 A.M. Facebook, just found us and it's Saturday night, and you're wondering, what did I get myself into? 


These value propositions are, very in the thinking. And so, James, let me come back to you real quick. How many team members do you have right now? 


James Hansen: We had just over 60 team members. 


Richard James: perfect. So 60 team members, and of those 60 team members, do a quarterly event. So, that in and of itself, like, so the idea of doing a quarterly event for your team members, where did that inspiration come from? 


Did you learn that in another industry you're in, when you had your agency? Did you read about it? How were you inspired to do that? And how does that work out for you? What's the biggest benefit there? 


All you guys care about is numbers. And so, we wanted to create that culture of rewarding people. And so, we have various awards that we give out. Like, we have, like, obviously, the highest bill or the highest collector. So, highest collection rate. And then we have the client experience award. 


Every quarter you get a client experience award. And that's based off of the client experience surveys that every active client gets Google reviews and video testimonials. So, those all go into the equation and someone that. And then we have a core value, we've got one every quarter. 


We take one of our core values, and one of the team members get that core value award. And then, for every one of our offices, we have an impact player award, and that impact player award, everyone in that office votes. For one of their team members to get that impact player award, and they have to say why, and then that comes to management. 


Which I think, in the grind of, especially family law, we don't take time to, actually especially attorneys to open the door and go have a conversation with someone, how you doing? And so, it really provides, it really, it really cultivates the relationship that you really need to take your mind to something other than work so that you can not go crazy. 


And so, when I bought my first funeral home in 1995. I only had 8 employees, most of them were part time, average median age was, like, 72 years old. The other thing that I learned in the funeral business was or pardon me, the insurance business was that, they loved giving T-shirts or awards and I didn't have a lot of money. 


And these are guys that get up at 2 o'clock in the morning, help me pick a dead body up off the floor. Right. And so, this, I'm giving out T-shirts to 70 year old men, and I'm thinking, I don't know if they're going to like it. And these guys would wear them to the grocery store. So They would wear them cutting their lawn. They love these T-shirts and we only 6 or 7 or 8 people and it worked. And so, plus one on what you just said, giving your team the ability get together, celebrate those people that have done a good job in a small way, not a big way, it doesn't have to be about money, and letting them be humans together is, you know, what a blessing you're doing for your team. So, congratulations to you for taking that inspiration and running with it. 


Internally, Like I think, we go get video testimonials for the marketing, right? Which is great. Let's do that. But talking about the impact that what you do has on society is a game changer, because it is not all about the grind of these cases. Cause Listen, I'm not an attorney, but I've been a practitioner in the weeds, and when you do that, you lose sight of the impact that you have. 


And so, to the extent that we as owners and leaders within the firm can help them see the impact they have, is by far one of the most important things that we've been able do. So, every single team meeting that we have, we talk about wins, and we talk about core values, not just our core values externally, but our core values internally. 


And A players want to be held accountable. A players don't want to work with B or C players. And so, to the extent that you can demonstrate that, you don't have to pay them what they're making before, because they don't like where they're at. So, those are two other things that we have found be really beneficial as it relates to these, quarterly events. 


Richard James: Dave Ramsey put it like this, thoroughbreds don't like hanging around with donkeys. And I've learned that and remember that my whole career. MPS, the, we experienced this too right, in our world. We'll get an email from somebody that says, Oh, that script is bunch of crap, that's not a good idea. 


MPS: I do goes back to the thoroughbreds and the donkeys. There will be victors and there will be victims. You get to choose. so that said, on that note, James, one of the other things too, because you literally took the recruiting topic right out of my mind, which was great, because I was going to ask you if that helps in the recruiting of staff members. 


The Importance of Accountability and Numbers 


MPS: It does. We were also talking about just the importance of attorney's favorite topic, numbers. so we were talking pre show about numbers. So talk me through that a little bit. How has you, and the management team reviewing numbers impacted just the trajectory and growth of the firm? 


But what I've learned is that, your team needs someone to push them, because they're not going to push themselves. And if they're not being pushed and they're not progressing in their life, they're not going to be happy. so, they need someone who loves them enough have difficult conversations with them. so, that is about their performance. And so, we've created this culture of everybody knows what success looks like, and everybody knows there's this cadence of meetings that There's this cadence of reports that come out, and if you're not there, there's a conversation is going to happen. And it's not like top down conversation, it's, Hey, what's going on? Like, How can we help you? Is like, Are you not getting the support you need? And so, for numbers, as it relates to like our current team, that's one thing that we have found that, listen, some of the people on our team don't like it, right? 


Like, it's natural to want comfort. But it's how do you react when you be pushed? And there's some people who get super negative. And so, like we're to work through that with people, but understanding that they may not be here long term because they are a negative person. So, the other, the other big thing is that we learn is with compensation and that maybe this is where you're going with that, I'm not sure. 


Cause we talked about it pre-show is, knowing your numbers, what your profitability numbers are is so important. And I'm so grateful and appreciate that you guys educate law firm owners on this, because there's not a lot of education that goes out this topic. 


But essentially, what we do is we sit down with our team and this is something super fresh and super new. And we asked him, what do you want to make? Like, I got so tired of the of, Hey, it's been a year and I haven't gotten a raise, like what's going on? And so, what we did is we have a cadence of when we sit down with people with our team. 


If they're generating this much revenue, this is what we can pay them. And so, we have to find a way to educate them of how to increase profitability, so that they can make more money. And it was really interesting, so I sat down with a legal assistant, and I thought he had a really good job explaining this. 


And she comes in my office a of of days later, and she's like, Hey, can you help me understand this? And it's like, How am I less profitable the more money I make? And I'm like, Oh, maybe I didn't talk about that because I just thought, that was common sense. 


Richard James: So, the message, the takeaway here, again, Oh my gosh, value bomb city. But the takeaway here is, if you're a law firm owner listening to this, you need to not take for granted the fact that your team members likely need to be educated in how this works. Now, we have a, a bit of an advantage in our company because Michael and I are educators by trade, I mean, this is what we do, right? 


Okay, based on your top tier mark of 80 reviews and five grand, right? All right. So, you go, well, is that a lot or is that a little? If you say, Hey, because of our efforts, we are now seeing, coming from our Google, my business page from those review, because those reviews got put up and Google gave us better rankings and we had more credibility. 


With the people that we're seeing it, we're now seeing approximately five new PI cases come in a month from that. Well, If a PI case in your firm is worth on average, you're just getting started. So, I'm going to give you 5 to $6,000 gross case value to the firm. So, app net, you know, after you get your share of the settlement. 


So, like, that work that you did to add those reviews is not only going to get you a case this month, it's going to get you a case next month, it's going to get you a case the month after. And if you continually do it, and you continually put a machine to it, and you keep growing your reviews, not only from your in house team, but But also from your clients and your referral partners, it just starts to compound on itself. 


Which means, am I paying $1,500 to $2,500 in spend to acquire those cases I acquired? Heck no! Because we did it through the use of reviews that bolstered our Google My Business page. So, I say all that, okay? so Great, let's assume I didn't just lose everybody that's listening Cause I just did this public math. And so what does this mean? Well, This means that, James, your job now is to realize, if you haven't already, you probably have your bright guy. That your team likely doesn't understand how you were able to calculate this 5, $5,000 for the 80 reviews. If we don't take the time to educate them, we run the risk that either the person that received the money, or the people that watch them receive the money, thinks that, Oh, our company's just made of money. 


MPS: I'm well, you did a reasonable job of explaining it, but know, you know, public math sometimes people. but think it was pretty spot on. and geez, the episode probably could have been cut 10 minutes ago, and there would have been so much value produced already that you could break this into several episodes in of itself. But I want to hear from you, James. just because I know you guys have a lot of exciting stuff happening. you know, what's got you excited? What's got the team fired up? What's on the horizon for you guys? 


And they can start thinking for themselves, and they don't continue to ask you me like questions that are, like, why are you asking? So, teaching the why and everything you do and then showing them once they accomplish it, Hey, yeah, you were in alignment with that, you did a great job. But really what it is, this review stuff and actually business building in general, is the Law of Diminishing Returns. 


Well, It's a lot of increasing returns. So, in the world, we're so used to the Law of Diminishing Returns, which is you do it one, so you cut your grass, right? You cut your grass one way and you see an immediate result from it. Now, I go cut my grass the other way and shave a little bit off of it, but the amount of return that I get for putting in the exact same amount of work is like not worth doing it again. 


And I'm blessed because I started with auto and home insurance. Like, I got paid nothing. I got paid 50 bucks commission for a new policy. And I had to build a book, big book of business before my life was great. For the most part, if, business owners and law firm owners could really just understand this is the law of increasing returns, and it's a true law, and it will apply, if you apply the law. 


So, what's got me excited? In the pregame where we were talking about, you have different problems that solve for based on where you're at in the law, where you're at with growth. So, this year, we'll do 11 million dollars in revenue. and We're solving for different problems than we were this time last year. and a lot of those are outsourcing, how can we continue to stay profitable under the current circumstances with inflation and people needing to make more money, I want them to make more money. 


And it can just be challenging. It can be challenging to pay a legal assistant what they need to live on and still be profitable with her labor, his or her labor. 


Leveraging Global Talent 


That's a great thing for them, but ultimately, it's a great thing for the business so that I can continue to support the team that I have, and they don't jeopardize their future or the firm's future, because we're making an unprofitable decision to hire someone here for a role that I just can't make money on based on what we're charging the client for. 


And more importantly, in law, a lot of courts will allow you to charge depending on practice area. And so, I'm all about charging as much as you can, but you can only go so far at some point. And when labor costs start to get out of whack with the profit and loss statement, which is where it should be. 


So, just for everybody listening, your labor costs should not exceed all in 401Ks, insurance, taxes, everything, everything you do for labor should not exceed, including the owner's based wage, 45% of gross revenues. And so, if it starts to get out of whack on that, firm has a really hard time surviving, and continuing to grow, and serve people. And coming back to the why, you know, a long time ago, I didn't know why I was going to work with lawyers. 


It's also challenges at times, but it's a wonderful, rewarding business. And we should be able to help as many people as we possibly can. But we have to make sure the firm is profitable. And if that means we have to look to certain positions where we have to take advantage or leverage global pay scales, so that we can do that, then that's our responsibility as the CEO. 


And now you brought them in and you hire them, the difficulty many small business owners, not just lawyers, but many small business owners have with downsizing, forgive me, but the shit hits the fan is challenging for them. And so, when PnL gets upside down because they didn't pay attention to the numbers and they didn't look at global solutions. 


James Hansen: Yeah. And I think, the one thing that's really been helpful for me to really keep all that in check and perspective is, the law firm, the entity itself, I serve it. It's not here for me. And so, if you can have the mindset of, I need to do what's in the best interest of my firm, not what's in my best interest, it's a lot easier to make those decisions. 


It's a lot easier to not die on a hill for an employee. Because, like, you are serving law firm and if you're not making the best decision, you have an employee who's you're not profitable with, She's a can't hear she's a cancer, or they're negative. And And you're, like, I need to be loyal because they've been here for 20 years. 


That is self centered, like, you're making that decision for you, not for the law firm. And if can really think of it as with that it's a lot easier to make those decisions. And I agree with you, like, we are doing God's work and it is by serving our clients, we're keeping the second great commandment. 


And it's not just settling cases. not just going to court. And so, I think, as a leader, as the CEO, you need to really be doing that. You really need to be talking about the impact that you're having on your client's life, but also the impact that you're having on your team members lives. I love coming to work and a new employee gets a new car. 


I love seeing the impact that we have on our clients and on our team members. And for me, that drives me. It's not the revenue that we're making. It's not the amount of offices we have, it's the impact we have on those two categories of people. 


Concluding Thoughts and Farewell 


Richard James: And P. S. it doesn't get much better than that. 


MPS: we'll toss this up, James, as, another top performing episode before it even airs, because I can guarantee you it will be. so thank you for investing your time again to be on the show. This was awesome. I really appreciate it. And obviously the law firm owner is listening to this. 


You probably have a laundry list right now of notes to take from ideas to start to implement. but if you enjoyed this, make sure you hit that subscribe or follow button depending on where you're listening or watching, turn those bell notifications on and show James some love down in the comments below. 


Let us know if you have any questions, James. Thank you. Thank you again. 


James Hansen: Thanks guys. Appreciate it. 


Appreciate 


James Hansen: Thanks guys. 


Appreciate it.