Shownotes
Jason felt like he had one last chance to save his marriage and his own life.
Years of substance abuse and deceit had brought him to a place where his world was crumbling around him, so he spent every last dollar he had on a 90-day rehab program and started his journey of recovery.
Now, Jason lives with a sense of freedom that he never experienced before, and he’s become an advocate for those struggling, as he did, with substance abuse and behavioral patterns that no longer serve them.
In this episode, he shares his story and how his focus on the day-to-day battle of “doing the next right thing” continues to lead him down a road of personal growth and freedom.
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Transcripts
Jason Stock00;00;00;00 - 00;00;23;22
Jason Stock
Things are sort of crumbling and my world was falling down around me. My wife said to me, one more drink or one more lie and we're done. It's so hard for men to get to a space where they are comfortable being vulnerable, but it is also necessary in order to be able to face our demons. Everyone has a thing.
00;00;23;23 - 00;00;33;03
Jason Stock
Mine happened to be alcohol. But just sharing our stories of how we were hurt by things that weren't serving us and how we recovered from them has power.
00;00;33;06 - 00;00;57;01
Matt Howlett
You are listening to the akkeri podcast, a show about men and masculinities, the challenges that modern men face and how to chart a better way forward. I'm your host, Matt Howlett, mental health coach and founder of The Orca. This episode is a conversation I had with Jason Stark about his journey of recovery from substance abuse. As a father of two boys and a husband, Jason shares how we almost lost it all but found freedom through a dedication to living honestly.
00;00;57;03 - 00;01;06;07
Matt Howlett
We talk about what it means to live honestly, and how a simplified mindset can be key to finding freedom from whatever weighs us down, Mr. Stark.
00;01;06;09 - 00;01;10;01
Jason Stock
What's going on? How are you, man? Good man. How are you?
00;01;10;04 - 00;01;12;03
Matt Howlett
Good. Are you hearing me? Okay.
00;01;12;06 - 00;01;13;10
Jason Stock
Yeah.
00;01;13;12 - 00;01;32;24
Matt Howlett
Well, dude, I'm really glad to have you on here. Especially when I heard you on that other podcast. Like I just mentioned. The gale force winds, the openness, the honesty, the willingness to dive right in. It seemed very unfiltered. I really appreciate that. I think you should, get some respect for that for for sure. That's that's not the easiest thing to do.
00;01;32;25 - 00;01;33;18
Matt Howlett
Hey.
00;01;33;21 - 00;01;59;02
Jason Stock
Yeah. I mean, I think that for me, it's been one of the things that I've been working through, trying to decide what's public and what's private. But it's a conversation that I think absolutely needs to be, out there and talked about. And I think gone are the days when you have to hide away in a church basement in order to get help.
00;01;59;02 - 00;02;35;19
Jason Stock
If you have some sort of recovery issue that you're dealing with. Not to say that that's not important. There's there's there's certainly a time and a place for, anonymity and for, those types of spaces. But in my experience, so many people that I've run into, since I've been open with these topics have come to me and said, hey, like, you know, I have struggled with this or, you know, I haven't struggled exactly with what you struggled with, but I've had an issue with playing video games too much or porn or what have you.
00;02;35;19 - 00;02;56;02
Jason Stock
And yeah, like it doesn't. I would like to say, like, everyone has a thing, you know, mine happened to be alcohol. but for others it could be anything. And I think just sharing our stories of how we were hurt by the things that weren't serving us and how we recovered from them has power.
00;02;56;04 - 00;03;05;21
Matt Howlett
Yeah. So is that what you think is the you mentioned the conversation that needs to happen? Is that it right there, the conversation about recovery. What was that? How has that been for you that that conversation.
00;03;05;24 - 00;03;32;20
Jason Stock
My view of recovery has has changed, significantly, even, you know, in the last couple of years. But, like originally when I was in the thick, dealing with, the sobriety issues and trying to figure out, you know, my life was a mess. You know, if you talk to anybody who's in recovery, the days, months and sometimes years leading up to getting sober are horrific.
00;03;32;23 - 00;04;07;17
Jason Stock
And in the beginning, I thought that recovery was going to be sort of like this act of attrition and that, you know, I was going to be a white knuckling, not drinking every day and resenting, you know, all the things that I felt like I couldn't do. And I never expected to get into a space of recovery where not only was I not, I not white knuckling, missing the drink, but days, sometimes weeks and months go by where I never even think about it.
00;04;07;20 - 00;04;33;23
Jason Stock
And I never could have anticipated that there would be so many amazing things on the other side of recovery that that just make it, so worthwhile. It it doesn't mean that it's not hard. It just means that, a whole new world is opened up to me that I never would have thought or imagined being possible. And I think sometimes people need to know that it's going to be hard.
00;04;33;23 - 00;04;52;05
Jason Stock
It's going to suck. But if you stay the course long enough, man, some really great stuff, you know, opens up and you know, you can have freedom. And that's that's for me anyways. Like what I'm experiencing now is freedom and and that that is something that, you know, I never expected.
00;04;52;07 - 00;05;00;20
Matt Howlett
you? Because, you know, it's:00;05;00;22 - 00;05;03;29
Jason Stock
hat's right. Yeah. We live in:00;05;04;00 - 00;05;20;02
Matt Howlett
Daniel. yeah. So over six years now. And that must have changed over that period of time. Like when you hit six months, a year or two years. What has that been like? How has that changed? You know, your relationship with your boys. You've got two boys, your relationship with your wife.
00;05;20;05 - 00;05;53;27
Jason Stock
I mean, everything's changed. the biggest change has nothing to do with substances. The biggest change has everything to do with the ability to live life. Honestly. And you know, for me, deception was always weaved in with drinking and using. And I remember when the very early days when things were sort of crumbling and my world was falling down around me.
00;05;54;00 - 00;06;30;06
Jason Stock
My, my wife said to me, one more drink or one more lie and we're done, right? And I remember in that moment thinking maybe I could stop drinking, but I, I legitimately did not know if I could learn how to be honest, because my entire life, since I was a small child, I had used, lies and used deception as a way to manage my world.
00;06;30;08 - 00;06;37;19
Jason Stock
Okay. And I, I really did not know if I could learn how to live an honest life. Yeah. And I just want to stop here for one second.
00;06;37;19 - 00;06;54;13
Matt Howlett
Could you just said something like, super interesting a minute ago? And I want us to really understand what what you meant by that. To live life honestly. Like, that's been the biggest benefit. You said not even the giving up of the substances. What does it mean exactly to you to live life honestly?
00;06;54;15 - 00;07;17;12
Jason Stock
It you know, it means being able to leave my cell phone out in the open and not have a care in the world if my wife goes through it. Right. Okay. it means not having a pit of anxiety in my stomach if a cop pulls up behind me because I know that I'm not drinking, and I know that I haven't been drinking.
00;07;17;12 - 00;07;18;04
Matt Howlett
Right.
00;07;18;07 - 00;07;50;10
Jason Stock
Like I had built up so many false truths and lies that when I got sober, I had I actually had a very difficult time actually understanding what what what was true, what was reality and what was made up or what was fiction. And I hated myself. and I remember like there were, there were times when, like when I would brush my teeth, I would purposely avoid the mirror.
00;07;50;12 - 00;08;11;24
Jason Stock
Right. I didn't want to look myself in my own eyes. And now, like, I can brush my teeth. I can look myself in the eye. I can look my wife in the eye. I can I can have conversation, look you in the eye and know that not everything that I say is going to be perfect, but it's going to be true, right?
00;08;11;24 - 00;08;44;08
Jason Stock
And I've learned that despite the fact that telling the truth is hard and sometimes carries consequences with it. That's really important to talk about. but I I've finally learned that the consequences of lying and not telling the truth far outweigh that of anything that could be dealt. You know, when you tell the truth and and that's something that I've been trying to learn since I was a small child.
00;08;44;11 - 00;08;47;15
Matt Howlett
Right. Why do you think that is? Where did that come from?
00;08;47;17 - 00;09;31;17
Jason Stock
You know, I think I think that people, develop coping mechanisms in order to deal with whatever they're dealing with as a, as a child. And the things that we develop, these coping mechanisms, these crutches, at one point serve us. They help protect us. and oftentimes they shield us from pain in childhood. But they become maladaptive as we grow up and get older and sometimes for people like me, it takes 40 years to learn how to put down that thing that once protected you.
00;09;31;19 - 00;09;33;18
Jason Stock
Right. And now no longer serves you.
00;09;33;23 - 00;09;36;28
Matt Howlett
So the main, the main thing for you was alcohol.
00;09;37;01 - 00;10;14;18
Jason Stock
it was alcohol. now, I always tell people I was substance agnostic in that, you know, alcohol was my primary drug of choice, but if it was around and it was going to change or affect my mental state, I was good. I was going to, like, I, I really didn't have, like, you know, this is the only thing that I'll do or drink, but alcohol was, was the thing that became so corrosive and so destructive because, well, it's so socially prevalent and available.
00;10;14;23 - 00;10;39;20
Jason Stock
Sure. you can hide in plain sight. as an alcoholic, by, you know, asking buddies to go out for drinks all the time and, you know, finding a way to, to have drinks at lunch. And, you know, nobody looks at you sideways when you stop off at the liquor store, and pick up a, you know, a couple of bottles of wine or, you know, a bottle whiskey or what have you.
00;10;39;27 - 00;10;42;06
Matt Howlett
We've throughout our culture, it's a come.
00;10;42;06 - 00;11;06;14
Jason Stock
And it's, you know, common it's so prevalent. And, it does, it allows it allows you to be able to hide in plain sight. And, it typically for me, it progressed from drinking was fun, like, it was fun at the beginning. that it was fun with problems. Then it was problems with a little bit of fun and then it was just problems.
00;11;06;17 - 00;11;27;08
Matt Howlett
So, yeah, you mentioned hiding. What is it? Do you feel that needed to be hidden? Like, was that more of, who you felt that you were because you mentioned, you know, looking in the mirror and and, like, really feeling like you hated yourself. Was there past, you know, trauma that you felt like wasn't really sorted out. And you're uncomfortable in public?
00;11;27;08 - 00;11;29;04
Matt Howlett
Like, what do you think that was for you?
00;11;29;06 - 00;12;09;01
Jason Stock
For everyone? I think what drives them into a state of addiction, that thing is going to be different. For me it was shame. And it was this specifically this deep seated belief that I was not good enough and that I would never measure up. And the overwhelming, that I had and sometimes still deal with, is that if you only knew what I knew about me, you wouldn't want to have anything to do with me, right?
00;12;09;03 - 00;12;43;05
Jason Stock
so the way that I orchestrated my world for a very long time was by keeping people at arm's length, not letting people get too close, because that was a defense mechanism. And it was by, trying to use manipulation and lies in order to help paint a picture so that I would, would think that you would find me acceptable.
00;12;43;07 - 00;13;19;09
Jason Stock
Right. and I think ultimately, at the end of the day, like, it was that pain, that deep seated shame that caused me to do shameful things. And that cycle got worse and worse and worse until eventually, you know, substances were the only coping mechanism that I had that helped me deal with the actual pain, the emotional pain that I was dealing with on a regular basis.
00;13;19;11 - 00;13;22;20
Jason Stock
Like in many ways, it was self-medication, right?
00;13;22;23 - 00;13;28;24
Matt Howlett
So when you became sober in:00;13;28;27 - 00;14;14;27
Jason Stock
It was. Yeah. so, like, listen, like, everyone's path is different. And for me, I felt like, for better or for worse, I had one shot. I felt like I had one opportunity in order to finally get everything under control. And I believe that if I didn't get sober, that I would die. and I also believed that in that in those early days, that if I was not able to maintain sane connection with my wife and kids, that that would lead me to like just total oblivion and destruction.
00;14;15;00 - 00;14;47;28
Jason Stock
So I leveraged every dime that I had, off of my line of credit. and found, a rehab center that I could afford. this was not a luxury rehab by any stretch of the imagination. And I punched 90 days to to sort of dry out and also start to really give myself a head start at, getting my life back.
00;14;48;01 - 00;15;18;11
Jason Stock
Right. And when I went to rehab, I thought I was going to do 90 days and finish and be the cured. When I left, I realized that I had just begun and I was just starting. And that's how I know. Like when I talk to other men and women who get out of rehab, I know immediately their potential to be successful is predicated on whether or not they think they've just finished, or whether they are just starting.
00;15;18;13 - 00;15;34;15
Matt Howlett
Right. So. So the rehab is not the actual rehabilitation. The rehab is the building of the foundation for the rehabilitation process that starts, really wants you walk back out into the world and into your preview your previous reality, I suppose.
00;15;34;17 - 00;16;02;13
Jason Stock
Yeah. Because when you're in rehab, you're you're you're in this sort of like isolated bubble. It's really like a minimum security prison, right? you can't leave. You don't have access to all your triggers and temptations. You don't have a phone. it's really easy to stay sober in rehab. Although I will tell you, some people don't. It is really amazing the lengths that addicts will go to in order to, to to feed their addiction.
00;16;02;20 - 00;16;32;22
Jason Stock
However, like so many people, you know, they go in and they sit down and they go to a meeting and it's 24 hours, and then they are thrust out into the world for 23 hours to try to figure out how they're going to deal with their problems. And like, for me, anyways, rehab was just a a way to like push pause on the world, figure out how to start dealing with my stuff, right, and then put a plan in place.
00;16;32;24 - 00;17;03;24
Jason Stock
So when I left, I was like, okay, like I'm going to have this many counseling sessions a week. I'm going to go to this many meetings. I'm going to be living in this place. this is the route that I'm going to take to work. Right? here's where I'm going to work out. When and why. Like I had I had diagnosed and made a plan for what my world was going to look like, and, and I had I had buffered in as, as many safety safeties as possible in order to make sure that I wasn't going to screw it all up.
00;17;03;26 - 00;17;05;24
Jason Stock
The minute that I walked out the door.
00;17;05;26 - 00;17;24;28
Matt Howlett
Right. Can we can we dig into the kind of backtrack a little bit to before you made the decision to go into rehab, is that all right? Sure. So I'm curious as to the context of that. You mentioned that your wife said, you know, one more drink, one more lie. That's it. We're done. And you said you had one shot.
00;17;25;01 - 00;17;30;02
Matt Howlett
So what was the context of that? You had been married for how long at that point?
00;17;30;05 - 00;17;37;18
Jason Stock
You're putting me on the spot here. just a rough ballpark. I think. At the time, we had been married. close to 15 years.
00;17;37;18 - 00;17;40;09
Matt Howlett
Okay. had the two boys in.
00;17;40;11 - 00;18;14;21
Jason Stock
. so this was:00;18;14;23 - 00;18;47;07
Jason Stock
And, you know, I would agree to appease and then hide booze throughout the house so that I could do what I wanted. Right? Well, you know, trying to keep that at home. You know, and it was just it was just lots of infractions like that where, there was this mixture of dishonesty with putting that need for the having that fix above everything else.
00;18;47;14 - 00;18;47;29
Matt Howlett
Right.
00;18;48;01 - 00;19;20;08
Jason Stock
Like when we would go out to dinner, it was how many drinks can I pile in in the amount of time that we're out and when my drink would get half empty, like I'm not paying attention to my wife, I'm paying attention to where's the server? When can I get the next drink? How can I make sure that I, you know, have enough and all of these games that we would play or that I would play to try to figure out how to how to justify the fact that my drinking wasn't as bad as, you know, other other people's drinking.
00;19;20;08 - 00;19;47;00
Jason Stock
And, you know, this comparison of like, my world versus other people's world. Yeah. You know, I remember like, one of the times that I went to go buy a vehicle, my bottle was half Jack Daniels, half Coca-Cola. And, you know, I'm driving around, like, on a Tuesday afternoon, drinking while driving and not queuing into the fact that that's not normal behavior.
00;19;47;02 - 00;19;48;03
Matt Howlett
Well, yeah.
00;19;48;05 - 00;20;19;08
Jason Stock
And, you know, so many times that I put my family at risk by drinking and driving. That was my that was one of the things is like, you know, if I drink, I'm probably going to drive. and it's it's unfortunate to say it's horrible. It's one of those shameful activities. and I know that there are people out there that, when they hear that, they're like, oh my gosh, like, how how in the world can can this person do that?
00;20;19;09 - 00;20;51;02
Jason Stock
And the answer is, I'm not really sure. Like we find a way to justify it. And we make it right. despite the fact that, deep down inside, we know it's it's morally wrong. And so as these decisions start to sort of compound and grow, over time, like one of the stories that we tell is like when my wife was going through cancer treatment, you know, that's one of the one of the places where my, drinking really escalated, dealing with the stress.
00;20;51;04 - 00;21;19;05
Jason Stock
And, you know, while my wife was sick going through her recovery. She's fine, like, ten years now, you know, cancer free. So all good news, but she's recovering. I'm taking her pain medication, mixing it with alcohol, and she wakes up in the middle of the night watching me bang up into the wall because I'm trying to leave the room, and I'm, like, banging into the closet.
00;21;19;10 - 00;21;55;26
Jason Stock
So here we have situations where, you know, I'm medicating. I'm taking her medication. I'm thinking about myself being deeply selfish. but but not able to see or really reconcile how that's harming others. And justifying all the reasons why any one of those activities by themselves isn't super bad. Yeah. And so it really just got to the place where, like, I remember like I was taking my boys swimming, when shit was really, like, going down.
00;21;55;26 - 00;22;16;20
Jason Stock
And it was sort of at the end right before rehab. And, you know, we had this nice little house and we had a couple of nice little cars. And I had a, I had a nice little corporate job. And on the outside it looked like everything was good, but it was it was cracking and corroding from the inside out.
00;22;16;20 - 00;22;45;17
Jason Stock
And everything was, was was rotten and like, it just got to the point where there was an implosion. and there was this knowing from both my side and my wife's side that we could no longer move forward in our marriage and in our life together, with me being as unhealthy as I was. And I needed to either get my shit together or get back in.
00;22;45;22 - 00;23;08;08
Matt Howlett
Yeah. So what brought you to that point? Like, personally? Like, obviously those are the things that are going on around you and looking back. They're quite easy to identify now. But so many of us, men especially, don't look for help. Don't go to rehab, don't take the actions that we need to take until we're sometimes until it's too late.
00;23;08;13 - 00;23;23;16
Matt Howlett
And we've already, you know, guys lose their marriage, guys lose their job, lose their health, whatever it is. But sometimes, like you, you get that chance. You know, your wife says to you, one more drink, one more of this. You know, we're done. Here's here's this one last chance, like you said. What? What was that.
00;23;23;17 - 00;23;24;08
Jason Stock
Like for.
00;23;24;08 - 00;23;35;17
Matt Howlett
You? What was the personal hurdles of of making that decision of choosing to, you know, use your line of credit every last dollar that you had, you said, how did you recognize that this needed to happen?
00;23;35;19 - 00;24;04;28
Jason Stock
It was deep fear. Deep, deep fear. And I can honestly say that, like, I'll love my family. and I wanted the chance to love them well, and I knew that I didn't. I knew that I had and life just wasn't working. And to be honest, I didn't think I was going to make it. Like, I didn't think I was going to do it.
00;24;05;01 - 00;24;19;23
Jason Stock
For me, it was like one, one swing at the fence, like, that's I, I did not foresee the life that I have now. Then I couldn't, couldn't. But there was no way I could see that. Did you feel like the fear.
00;24;19;23 - 00;24;24;06
Matt Howlett
Was kicking in before you had that conversation with your wife? Like, did you feel like.
00;24;24;06 - 00;24;55;03
Jason Stock
Yeah, like I was. I was like, super anxious, super fearful all the time. Very unhealthy and causing harm, you know, like make no mistake about it. Like I, I was causing harm during my drinking days and you know really even continued to cause some harm in the early part of recovery. I didn't go to rehab on day one and all of a sudden on like day 90, like everything's fixed.
00;24;55;08 - 00;25;19;18
Jason Stock
Like, that's a long time to clean everything up. And I did not change overnight. I did not get better overnight. There's this concept in recovery about doing the next right thing. And that is very different than doing the next thing right. You know, like. And sometimes the next right thing is, is just okay, like I'm going to get up and I'm going to brush my teeth today.
00;25;19;19 - 00;25;21;00
Jason Stock
That could be the next right thing.
00;25;21;02 - 00;25;21;21
Matt Howlett
Simple as that.
00;25;21;22 - 00;25;28;16
Jason Stock
Yeah. And then what's the next decision. You know okay. Like I'm going to go out, I'm going to check the mail and I'm not going to go to the liquor store.
00;25;28;22 - 00;25;30;02
Matt Howlett
What was that statement? Can you just say.
00;25;30;02 - 00;25;54;00
Jason Stock
That again the next right thing. So so literally like what is the next right thing that I can do that will will make a difference. And it doesn't have to be big. It can be small, right? And I would actually tell you that if it should be small, because bad things happen when you try to clean up messes all at once, you you gotta find a little tiny wedge.
00;25;54;05 - 00;26;08;09
Jason Stock
You, you got to work on just doing the very next right thing. And if you, if you do that and you compound it, it is really magical. You do you can really reclaim your life.
00;26;08;12 - 00;26;24;08
Matt Howlett
Yeah. That, makes me think of the book Atomic Habits. It talks a lot about the not in the same language, the next right thing. And it's not about doing, I think. And correct me if I'm wrong, it's the next right thing. Not doing the next thing right. That's what you said.
00;26;24;11 - 00;26;43;24
Jason Stock
Yeah, exactly. Because sometimes you're to screw up. Yeah. Like if you focus on, doing everything right and doing everything perfect, like, let's say you're going to follow a 12 step program. If you're like, if you sit down and you're like, okay, like, this is the next thing, I got to be a 12 stepper and I got to do it right.
00;26;43;24 - 00;27;01;21
Jason Stock
Well, I got news for you. You're going to screw it up, right? Especially in early recovery. You're going to make mistakes. You're going to falter. You're not going to be perfect. But even when those things happen and you have setbacks, if you can sit back and say, like, okay, like what's the next right thing I can do, right?
00;27;01;22 - 00;27;18;09
Jason Stock
And this applies to anything. Lose your job. What's the next right thing I can do? Yeah. How can I how can I take care of myself right now so I don't make things worse? It's almost this concept of, like, things are already bad enough. How do I not make more harm?
00;27;18;11 - 00;27;37;18
Matt Howlett
Yeah. The book I mentioned talks about the same type of concepts in different ways. one of the quotes that I like that I pulled from that is that you should be far more concerned with your current trajectory than you are with the current results. So in a way that's talking about the same type of thing, just packaging it differently.
00;27;37;18 - 00;27;57;28
Matt Howlett
It uses a lot of like financial concepts of compounding interest. And that's exactly what you're talking about. Can you speak a little bit to what those little things were at first? You know, after you get out of rehab, you come back into reality. You come back to your your wife, you come back to your boys, you come back to life as you knew it before the 90 days.
00;27;58;04 - 00;28;00;21
Matt Howlett
What were those little things? What that look like?
00;28;00;24 - 00;28;08;11
Jason Stock
I mean, sometimes it's this little is like, okay, if you say you're going to be somewhere at 7:00, you're there at 659.
00;28;08;14 - 00;28;10;26
Matt Howlett
Okay. Consistency. Yeah.
00;28;10;29 - 00;28;35;06
Jason Stock
If if I say that I'm going to do something, I need to do it. And and that could mean not doing things. It could mean for me it meant respecting boundaries. As, as my wife and I were trying to figure out how to navigate this new life. you know, I remember in the very beginning she was like, I don't want you to come by the house when I'm not expecting you.
00;28;35;08 - 00;28;52;20
Jason Stock
I was like, okay. Like, the next right thing for me is like, when I feel like I need to run in and, you know, that's my house or what have you, I need it. The next right thing is, is learning how to acknowledge those boundaries in that moment. Oftentimes it meant like, man, I want to drink right now.
00;28;52;20 - 00;29;07;27
Jason Stock
The next right thing is to get my ass to a meeting, right? The next right thing could be like, I realized that exercise is an important part of my recovery. So, you know, I'm getting stressed. I feel like I'm gonna, you know, blow my top. Like, I got to go work out.
00;29;08;00 - 00;29;30;04
Matt Howlett
Right? I'm going to put a pin in exercise because I'm curious about that one for you. But you you mentioned the word boundaries. That is something that is common in, you know, personal development work. But I don't think a lot of men especially understand the term itself. What what it means, how is it implemented? Can you just speak to that from your experience?
00;29;30;04 - 00;29;34;04
Matt Howlett
What was that like? How was that helpful? What does that mean to you? First, maybe.
00;29;34;06 - 00;30;06;02
Jason Stock
I think that oftentimes when relationships get unhealthy, it's because there's not clear boundaries. there's not clear delineation of rules of engagement as to how we behave in this relationship. And when you're in a situation where, somebody has been trying to manage your addiction, it's very important for them to learn how to set boundaries so that they are no longer taken advantage of so they can begin to recover, because alcoholism, addiction is a family disease.
00;30;06;02 - 00;30;32;06
Jason Stock
u need to be in your house by:00;30;32;09 - 00;30;42;05
Jason Stock
u're where you say you are at:00;30;42;05 - 00;30;46;04
Matt Howlett
To sorry, just to clarify, you were you spent a period of time separated.
00;30;46;06 - 00;30;47;09
Jason Stock
Is that right? I did, yeah.
00;30;47;11 - 00;30;58;16
Matt Howlett
Okay. So your wife wanted, a heads up or to know, actually, when you would be coming by not to be surprised by you appearing in there was one of her expectations to set one of the boundaries.
00;30;58;18 - 00;31;21;03
Jason Stock
Exactly. Because I it was my job to make her feel safe again. So she got to set all the rules. She got to set all the all the boundaries. She got to tell me everything that she needed in order to trust me again. And I got to decide whether or not it was. It was worth doing that mountain of work in order to be able to win that back.
00;31;21;03 - 00;31;44;28
Jason Stock
And it was a mountain of work. it was no small feat, but it was 100% worth it. It was the best thing that I ever could have done. But it was very hard. And and there were lots of very clear boundaries that were set along the way. And when you are somebody who is not used to living in boundaries.
00;31;45;00 - 00;32;09;12
Jason Stock
You know, and you bump up against them, it can make you feel all kinds of things, and unregulated, especially in the beginning. But I'm really grateful that we did that and we put those boundaries in place because it, it gave Kathy the space to be able to heal. Right. And to decide whether or not, I was going to be a safe person to let back into her life.
00;32;09;14 - 00;32;33;17
Jason Stock
And I would be the first one to tell you that, like, even today. But my wife, I've been married for six and a half years. I say now like, because we remarried, right? Was like the old marriage died. Yeah. New marriage exists. It's. It's my job in the marriage to understand that because I'm the one who caused harm.
00;32;33;20 - 00;32;54;03
Jason Stock
I need to be the one that's doing the reparations. I need to be the one who's doing the heavy lifting to try to help her feel safe. Even when you know where years and years and years removed. Like the trauma that I put her through still exists in her body. So you know, it. And ultimately is my responsibility.
00;32;54;06 - 00;33;25;24
Jason Stock
You know, up until the day that I die, probably in order to to continue to make her feel safe in the marriage. And, oftentimes the way that we do that is by having good boundaries and we have certain agreements, some things might be acceptable and some marriages, but they're not acceptable in ours. And, we've done that for a very specific purpose, specific reasons, so that everyone feels safe and everyone feels like they have what they need in order to be healthy in their relationship.
00;33;25;27 - 00;33;29;29
Matt Howlett
Yeah. What's an example of one that you have right now that you appreciate?
00;33;30;01 - 00;33;54;10
Jason Stock
like listen to like it it it it happens all the time where this is a tricky thing sometimes to deal with, but just from an optics perspective. I was traveling, I went to Ottawa for work. and one of the people that is in my coaching class lives in Ottawa. The woman. Asked if I could meet her for coffee.
00;33;54;12 - 00;34;13;22
Jason Stock
No, I can't if there's not another woman that's with you, I'm not meeting you one on one like that's, that's a boundary. Like that's something that we would cross. And if I do meet with the woman one on one, then my wife's going to know about. I'm going to tell her about it beforehand. She's not going to be surprised about it.
00;34;13;24 - 00;34;44;19
Jason Stock
You know, a simple boundary is just like we agree that we we live a sober marriage. Like, marriage for us is contingent upon the fact that I remain sober. And if I no longer hold up that end of the bargain, then, you know, she has the option to walk away. And I fully believe that, she should follow through with that if I ever start drinking again, because that means that, you know, I've crossed that boundary and I've made her unsafe.
00;34;44;19 - 00;34;48;01
Jason Stock
And I would then need to live with those consequences.
00;34;48;03 - 00;35;00;02
Matt Howlett
Right. I, I put a pin in fitness and working out. and I know you are into jujitsu and shout out to your son Kayden, who I have not met, but, man, is.
00;35;00;02 - 00;35;02;03
Jason Stock
That is that true? That you really haven't met him?
00;35;02;06 - 00;35;27;04
Matt Howlett
I've seen Caden. I've never actually been introduced. I have never spoken to him. but, man, congrats on the success. That's fantastic. Everything that's been going on there. What? just for people that don't know, because I can't even obviously think of the specifics of his success. Can you speak to that for a second? And what jujitsu has kind of meant for your family, how that's helped you in the recovery process?
00;35;27;06 - 00;35;59;29
Jason Stock
Yeah. So, well, first of all, I'll give a shout out to Caden. Yeah, he's been, coming to train with us and and to jitsu and martial arts since he was 11 years old. And, he's 18, just graduated high school, right? and through our martial arts journey, he fell in love with, kickboxing a couple of years ago and has been training jiu jitsu with us and then also investing heavily into, into this kickboxing arc.
00;36;00;03 - 00;36;25;03
Jason Stock
And he recently just won the Canadian national championship for, under 18, in his weight division. And we're in the process to get ready to go to Budapest in August for the World Championships. So it's super awesome. Amazing. So yeah, the shout out to Caden for for doing that. That's so much hard work and effort has gone into the preparation for that.
00;36;25;03 - 00;36;48;25
Jason Stock
And yeah, he really is just like demonstrating championship sort of mental and physical toughness. as, as he, goes down his martial art journey. And it's super cool as his dad to be able to watch him, you know, overcome adversity and have this kind of success.
00;36;48;27 - 00;37;01;26
Matt Howlett
Yeah, yeah, I bet. Well done. Caden. How has that helped you? How does that. I mean, that must be super cool to for one to be training with your son, but, like, you know, doing the next right thing, that that's been one of them.
00;37;01;26 - 00;37;36;26
Jason Stock
I mean, jiu jitsu is, is is the coolest thing that that I've, I have in my world in many ways because you know, and I've tried lots of different types of exercise, but jujitsu is the only activity that I've ever done where my brain completely shuts, when I'm training because, like, the reality of it is, is if someone's trying to choke you, break your arm, break your leg, which is, you know, the, the, the art that we play, that we call it the gentle art.
00;37;36;29 - 00;37;38;23
Jason Stock
but,
00;37;38;25 - 00;37;41;23
Matt Howlett
I've never heard that before. It doesn't sound too gentle to me.
00;37;41;25 - 00;37;47;12
Jason Stock
When that is happening. you can't think about anything else.
00;37;47;12 - 00;37;48;06
Matt Howlett
Yeah. Just react.
00;37;48;06 - 00;38;18;10
Jason Stock
You are really just primarily focused on that. And there's this other element of, problem solving and, you know, just so many lessons that I pull from from the mat, like, it takes a long time to get good at grappling. So you know, entity two, there's five belts white, blue, purple, brown and black. You know, when you're as old as I am, sometimes it takes a long time to go through the progression.
00;38;18;16 - 00;38;41;26
Jason Stock
So I'm a purple belt now, which means, you know, for all the kids out there, I made, but, for the first two years, you're just getting the shit kicked out of you, right? and so many days where it's like, okay, like, you can't figure out how to get off the bottom. You can't figure out how to get out of certain positions.
00;38;41;26 - 00;39;26;28
Jason Stock
You keep getting submitted, you keep getting choked, and you have to just kind of continue to go back and continue to go into that bad position until you learn a technique that works for you in order to escape and get out of that position. And then once you learn that technique and you master that technique, all of a sudden you're you're a little bit safer and you know that that I think in a lot of ways applies to like and, you know, so really jiu jitsu has been this sort of like act of contrition, this ability to be able to learn how to get out of bad positions, and the ability to problem
00;39;26;28 - 00;39;58;01
Jason Stock
solve in a stressful situation. And that is, that is what happens when you're engaged in, combat art is, you know, you're forced into a stressful situation. You have to learn how to adapt, how to move, how to breathe. And. Right. It's those types of lessons that that I've learned in jiu jitsu that have really helped augment some of the things that I've learned in recovery that have helped me become, you know, a full, healthy person.
00;39;58;03 - 00;40;08;18
Matt Howlett
what else has helped you in, like, the time since coming out of rehab? So in the last six years, what other habits, disciplines have you formed that have been helpful that you didn't have before?
00;40;08;25 - 00;40;37;17
Jason Stock
I would say jiu jitsu and being attached in some way to recovery community are important to me. therapy has been, a part of my post recovery journey. Just when I think that I dealt with all of the childhood issues, sometimes I gotta go back to that well again and, you know, figure out, well, why am I continuing to deal with this certain issue, taking care of myself, exercising all those types of things?
00;40;37;17 - 00;40;50;27
Jason Stock
Just honestly, it's like the little normal things that I feel like normal people just do. I'm I'm now learning how to take care of myself. I'm kind of one day at a time.
00;40;50;29 - 00;40;53;14
Matt Howlett
Too. You're you're now normal people.
00;40;53;16 - 00;41;07;12
Jason Stock
Yeah, I kind of, I guess I feel that I have normal, but but yeah, like, I think that's really bad. It is. And that's the beauty of recovery is like most days, my life is pretty boring. That's cool.
00;41;07;15 - 00;41;09;23
Matt Howlett
Sometimes boring can be pretty cool.
00;41;09;26 - 00;41;31;15
Jason Stock
Right? Like, it's like, oh, there's no chaos. There's no destruction. that's not to say bad things don't happen. You have chaotic moments. We have moments where, you know, I screw up and or somebody else screws up, and we have to deal with being human together and hurting each other's feelings and making reparations and learning how to say, I'm sorry.
00;41;31;15 - 00;41;53;17
Jason Stock
You all types of types of things like that doesn't stop just because you're recovered. Hopefully it just gets easier and better, but most days are relatively boring and innocuous because I'm not creating these types of toggles and problems that I was creating for myself when I was, you know, drinking and lighting the whole time.
00;41;53;17 - 00;42;05;14
Matt Howlett
Yeah, not not boring in the sense that you're actually bored looking for something to do, but boring and more of like a joking sense that all of the crap that you know you once dealt with is not really existing anymore.
00;42;05;16 - 00;42;15;10
Jason Stock
And you. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, coming all my life right now and you'd be like, oh, like, you know, like pretty, pretty tame. It's pretty calm and and that's that's nice.
00;42;15;12 - 00;42;27;15
Matt Howlett
Right. And, you mentioned that you want to take this experience, everything that you've learned from that now and kind of turn that around and help other men. Can you talk to me a little bit about that? What is that going to look like for you?
00;42;27;17 - 00;42;57;25
Jason Stock
Yeah. So I think I think that one of the gifts, I like to talk about the gifts of sobriety, because not everybody has had the benefit of going through a 12 step program that everybody has had the benefit of learning some of the things that I've learned in recovery and learning some of the lessons that I've learned that have really helped make my life better, you know, so it's it's sort of like, is what happened to you a gift or a curse?
00;42;57;25 - 00;43;26;20
Jason Stock
Well, it depends on how you look at it. So the last six months or so, I've been taking, a coaching certification course. And, one of the things that, I want to be able to do is start to dive into some coaching and specifically the area that really interests me is helping people quit things that no longer serve them.
00;43;26;27 - 00;44;10;00
Jason Stock
So that could be a number of different things. It could be alcohol related, substance related, you know, it it could be, I've had conversations with guys who were like, man, I play 12 hours of video games a day, right? You know, like everybody's thing is going to be different. But but I think that ultimately if people have a thing that they want to give up or quit, I want to be able to help guide them through the process of laying that thing down and figuring out how to put something in its place that better serves them.
00;44;10;00 - 00;44;42;27
Jason Stock
And my hope is that through this type of coaching practice, I can help people expedite the process a little bit. maybe get to their end result a little bit faster, a little bit. Hola, a little bit healthier. And, ultimately, like, that's that's how I'm going to use the experience that I've gained in recovery in order to help, other people through this, coaching practice.
00;44;43;00 - 00;45;00;22
Matt Howlett
Yeah, I think that's fantastic, man. You know, the work that you're going to to get into the work that I've been getting into since starting the oxy, it's very satisfying work. And it's, it's even a little bit healing in some ways, because you get to take something and turn it into something else, like you're saying, you know, the experience that you've had.
00;45;00;25 - 00;45;26;23
Matt Howlett
You can look at it as a curse. You can look back on anything that's happened to you and just kind of see it negatively. Or you can reframe that, see it for what it was, you know, accept what happened and process, everything that came from that. and then you can turn it into something else, you know, and I think that's, it's those experiences that make, the best teachers that make the best coaches, the best make the best leaders.
00;45;26;25 - 00;45;48;08
Matt Howlett
You know, I mean, I think almost, almost every biography that I've ever read of someone who's had leadership responsibilities, it's always from personal experience and it's always from trials. Something that was hard that they did not see come and they did not plan for, and that sounds very much like what your experience has been. And it doesn't have to be substance abuse.
00;45;48;08 - 00;45;54;10
Matt Howlett
You're going to be able to help, you know, are you focusing specifically on men? You are.
00;45;54;12 - 00;46;30;08
Jason Stock
I'm not going to silo my practice specifically for men. However, I, I personally believe that men are underserved in this arena. There are lots of places, for women to go for help when they need help. And women are much more likely to join, different types, support groups, clubs, coaching groups, different things like that, in order to help navigate their world.
00;46;30;11 - 00;47;03;09
Jason Stock
That's, that's really like, a super power for them because women are, I think are much more drawn to those communal type of programs that lead to different types of recovery. so I, I believe that men will be a cornerstone, the work that I, I, I do and my hope is that I can get to men, before the wheels fall off the bus.
00;47;03;12 - 00;47;22;21
Jason Stock
Right. yeah. You know, and and that maybe I would be a safe space, for them to realize, like, okay. Like, you know, Jason's a dude. He's been there before, you know? He's been there, done that. Got the t shirt. Not going to touch me. You know, maybe a little bit of if he can do it, I can do it too kind of thing.
00;47;22;21 - 00;47;23;16
Matt Howlett
Absolutely.
00;47;23;19 - 00;48;02;22
Jason Stock
yeah. And and I, I really do hope that that I can, I can get to some people before those problems become so large where, you know, people are looking at losing their families, going to jail, those types of things. because ultimately, like, you know, life has a way of showing up and dealing consequences. And if we can acknowledge our problems early enough and deal with them, you know, we can avoid a lot of pain, which I think is just as as important as the the work that you would do post having dealt with pain.
00;48;02;25 - 00;48;33;06
Matt Howlett
Yeah, absolutely. I agree with you 100%. I think, especially your comment about one of the main differences between men and women. They're, they're naturally drawn to, vulnerability, especially in community. You know, it's it's a lot harder, for a variety of reasons, for men to, to do that sort of thing. And it sounds like from, from your story, from what I heard, on the previous podcast that you're on in from chatting with you now, that vulnerability in community was a big aspect of that.
00;48;33;06 - 00;48;51;13
Matt Howlett
Just the ability to to be real with another man or a group of men and to not be judged, to be heard and to be supported. You know, we're we're coming and coming together. We're all having our own shit to deal with, and we're going to figure it out, support each other. That that accurate.
00;48;51;16 - 00;49;15;14
Jason Stock
Yeah. And I think it's so it's so important that like one of the things that I love about jujitsu is this concept of brotherhood, which exists in the club that I belong to. And I think that it's so hard for men to get to a space where they are comfortable being vulnerable, but it is also necessary. Yeah, absolutely.
00;49;15;14 - 00;49;40;23
Jason Stock
In order to be able to face our demons and, ultimately, like the way I like to see this type of work is, is like we get in a room together and we identify what's the thing? What is the thing that if you don't address it, it's going to drag you down and take you to hell and back.
00;49;40;23 - 00;49;52;22
Jason Stock
And how do we look at it in its eyes? How do we deal with it directly and remove it? Hold over you so that you don't have to get dragged to hell?
00;49;52;29 - 00;49;53;26
Matt Howlett
Yeah.
00;49;53;29 - 00;50;10;24
Jason Stock
You know, like that's the work. And I think it's so powerful because most people who are stuck in that kind of situation where something has of all of their life and it's holding them down, don't know how good freedom tastes.
00;50;10;27 - 00;50;49;10
Matt Howlett
Yeah, that is something I've thought about multiple times in this conversation, because we're obviously on the other end of, of your journey, and I'm on the other end of, of my own. I'm not sure how much you know about my story. I think, you know, a little bit. And it's all outlined in the first episode of, of this podcast, but it's so much easier to see the good side, like the decisions that I made years ago, you know, when I was going, really going through the shit, I'm experiencing the results of those, the consequences, positive consequences of those decisions now, that new reality that those decisions, those actions, those thought patterns that they built for
00;50;49;10 - 00;51;11;14
Matt Howlett
me and where I'm at now, I can look back and be like, wow, of course it was all worth it. But in that moment, right in, when you're in that dark place, it's not always that easy to to see that far into the future, to see where your current, you know, the next right thing can get you. And you know, I it makes me think about one guy that I'm talking with now.
00;51;11;14 - 00;51;32;12
Matt Howlett
Like that's the challenge. You know, he's experienced, a lot of growth personally. And where he's at is, is a hard spot to be in. And he's seen a ton of progress. But right now he used the word plateau recently felt like he's hit a plateau. And it's it's that consistency of how do I do the next right thing.
00;51;32;14 - 00;51;51;07
Matt Howlett
You know what I mean? Knowing that eventually I've got this goal down the road, I'm not quite there yet. That's really all I want to I want to, you know, get this, get this job, get the relationship, get whatever, get that set up that I want. But it's that in the trenches, you know what I mean? And I think, what you're talking about with, with community is a big aspect of that.
00;51;51;07 - 00;52;08;28
Matt Howlett
The, the ability to, to choose vulnerability and open yourself up to that kind of support. What what would you say to that guy right now that the, the guys that are in the trenches right now that are struggling, you know, like you were when you, you know, didn't want to lose your marriage, didn't want to lose your family going through that, 90 days recovery.
00;52;08;28 - 00;52;18;25
Matt Howlett
And then when it really started, when, when you got out to do the next right thing, how do you make sure that you continue on that path of doing the next right thing and not worrying about getting it right?
00;52;18;27 - 00;52;40;01
Jason Stock
It's going to take longer than you think it's going to take. It's going to be harder than you think it's going to be, but it's worth it. That's what I would say. It's going to require immense personal sacrifice. It's going to be two steps forward, one step back. And I can't understate enough that it's going to take longer than you think it's going to take.
00;52;40;04 - 00;53;10;10
Jason Stock
When I was at in recovery, there was a guy that came, I love to tell this story. I met this guy and his name was snake, and he came and he led a meeting for us. And, and snake was, skinny, 55, 60 year old African-American man with an eye patch. And he had spent the last 25 years or so in a federal penitentiary for narcotics related crimes.
00;53;10;18 - 00;53;39;12
Jason Stock
And so this guy has been through it, right? Right. And he's leading the meeting. He's he is the beacon of hope for all of us that are that are in this recovery journey together. And, you know, he's he's talking about recovery. And he says, guys like when you start trying to recover, you've got a pile of shit over your head and it feels like it's 1,000 pounds.
00;53;39;14 - 00;54;06;01
Jason Stock
And he said, most people make the mistake of trying to clean it up once and then all they have is a bigger mess. He was like, guys, look what you got to do and you just got to take one tiny little piece today, pull it down, clean it up completely and don't put it back. And then you wake up tomorrow and you do it again and you take a small piece.
00;54;06;04 - 00;54;29;14
Jason Stock
And he was like, man, it might take a thousand days. It might take longer than you think it's going to take. But some day you're going to wake up and you're going to look over your head and you're going to realize that that cloud of shit that you thought was never going to go away is gone. And all you see is blue skies, but it's because you just took those little tiny baby steps.
00;54;29;16 - 00;54;57;27
Jason Stock
So just be willing to stay in the grind for as long as it takes. And I think if you can cultivate a mindset where you reduce your expectations so that where a lot of guys get in trouble is they have these high expectations of what they think their life is going to look like, lower those expectations and just do what you can do every day and be willing to do it for as long as it takes.
00;54;57;29 - 00;55;06;16
Jason Stock
And I think if you do that, if you follow that recipe, somewhere down the road, there's a much better life to be had.
00;55;06;18 - 00;55;12;19
Matt Howlett
I think that's great advice, man. what's the date of your sobriety, your five years coming up in now?
00;55;12;20 - 00;55;19;04
Jason Stock
th,:00;55;19;04 - 00;55;39;00
Matt Howlett
Oh, six and a half. Oh my bad. Okay. That's fantastic. Yeah. Fantastic, man. Well, I'm I'm looking forward to, what comes after you finish the certification and the coaching hours that you need to get in. Have you back on again at some point? I think it's like you said, man, I think there needs to be more opportunity.
00;55;39;02 - 00;56;00;16
Matt Howlett
you know, whether or not you focus on men solely like you probably won't, that's cool. But like, men need more opportunity for this. Men need to know that that's okay. And really, it's more than okay. It's necessary. You know what I mean? Like to be a good man. It's one of the questions that I kind of posed to the audience on my website.
00;56;00;19 - 00;56;21;28
Matt Howlett
What does it mean to be a good man? You know what I mean? I think vulnerability is one of the requirements. I don't I don't think it's something that, you need only when you're going through something in order to sort it out. You need it all the time. It's it's how you, build community. I mean, how can you be, you know, I had a conversation a little while ago with, Steven Randall.
00;56;21;28 - 00;56;41;09
Matt Howlett
He's an author, lost his son, basically to a drug addiction. And he talks, we talk primarily about, authenticity. And to me, they go hand in hand because you can't be real without being a little bit vulnerable. You know what I mean? Otherwise you're you're hiding parts of yourself, and you're only showing the parts that you're.
00;56;41;09 - 00;56;42;18
Matt Howlett
You proud of, right?
00;56;42;20 - 00;57;01;16
Jason Stock
Yeah, I, I love the question. what does it take to be a good man? Because, you know, I think about the boys that I'm raising, like, my wife, and I want them to be good men. And with the authenticity, the thing that I talk about with my boys now is, is learning how to be honest. And, man, it's such.
00;57;01;17 - 00;57;21;11
Jason Stock
And you got to be honest about something in you realize you're going to get in trouble. Yeah. You realize you're going to be in shit, but you're honest anyway. Like that's character building. Absolutely. Like when you realize that you've screwed up and you've got to be honest and you do it anyways, that's the kind of stuff that really proves the metal of a man.
00;57;21;14 - 00;57;47;17
Jason Stock
And it's very, very easy to make excuses, very easy to sweep things under the rug. but living this, like, relentlessly honest life is not a soft thing. So it's it's it's interesting in that you need a little bit of the softness of the vulnerability to allow you to do the hard thing.
00;57;47;20 - 00;57;56;27
Matt Howlett
Thank you for listening. I hope you found some value in this episode. If you have, be sure to share the podcast with a friend and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can find the akkeri on socials at the akkeri and on the web at the akkeri dot com.
