In this Taboo Tuesday discussion, author, illustrator, and mental health advocate, Jordan Sondler, joins Dr. Emily to talk about what it was like going public about therapy and working on her mental health in her book, "Feel It Out: The Guide to Getting in Touch with Your Goals, Your Relationships, and Yourself." Sondler says that what started as an illustrated book for single people on how to survive a break-up turned into a book for every single person that covers many of life’s challenges from strengthening self-awareness to how to adopt a dog. 

Staying emotionally fit takes work and repetition. That's why the Emotionally Fit podcast with psychologist Dr. Emily Anhalt delivers short, actionable Emotional Push-Ups every Tuesday and Thursday to help you build a better practice of mental health, and surprising, funny, and shocking conversations on Taboo Tuesdays - because the things we’re most hesitant to talk about are also the most normal. Join us to kickstart your emotional fitness. Let's flex those feels and do some reps together!

EPISODE RESOURCES:

Follow Jordan Sondler on Instagram.

Check out Jordan’s book Feel It Out: The Guide to Getting in Touch with Your Goals, Your Relationships, and Yourself 

Learn more about Jordan’s work at Jordansondler.com

Photo of Jordan Sondler by @erichelgas

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The Emotionally Fit podcast is produced by Coa, your gym for mental health. Katie Sunku Wood is the show’s producer from StudioPod Media with additional editing and sound design by nodalab, and featuring music by Milano. Special thanks to the entire Coa crew!

JUMP STRAIGHT INTO:

(03:27) -  Why Jordan started opening up about therapy - “I got into this work when I went through a breakup a few years ago and started suffering from anxiety attacks around that time. I went on medication, but I also felt like I had to find an outlet for myself. I started with the dating, and then, at a certain point in time, I had this idea that I really wanted to work on a book.”

(5:06) - Going from client work to something more personal - “When I sold this book and I started making it, I realized, ‘Uh-oh, this is all I want to do anymore.’ But it's really hard to go to all your clients and be like, ‘Hey, do you want to just hire me for totally different work?’" 

(09:06) - Talking about therapy - “I will tell any person—like my barista at Starbucks—I'm in therapy. I will tell the world that I'm on SSRIs, because I really attribute being in therapy to everything great that has ever happened to me.”

(14:29) - The downside of sharing such personal work - “Sometimes I am questioning myself like, ‘Am I posting this because I want a bunch of strangers to like cheer me up?’ And then I'm like, ‘No, that's not why I'm posting it.’ But that just so happens to be a side effect.” 

(21:21)  - From Jordan’s book “Feel It Out” -  “Put your needs first. Don't make yourself small. See a therapist. Compromise, but be sure it's balanced. Never love anyone more than yourself. Don't bury your feelings to avoid confrontation. Take trips without each other. Be open and honest from the beginning.”

(28:03) - Misconceptions about therapy - “A lot of people ask me, ‘Wow, do you always know what you're going to talk about? Or do you go to therapy to talk about a specific thing? The answer is no.”

I've never made anything like this in my life. I can't remember the last time I felt so vulnerable. But I think a lot of people, they try to draw conclusions. And I think everyone is so well meaning, but I think some people think that they know more about me than they do. And a lot of times I'm sharing because I just want it to be helpful to someone else.

Welcome to Taboo Tuesday on the Emotionally Fit podcast. I'm Dr. Emily Anhalt, and I've always loved talking about taboo subjects. Sex, money, drugs, death. Because being a therapist has taught me that the feelings we're most hesitant to talk about are also the most normal. So join me as we flex our feels by diving into things you might not say out loud, but you're definitely not the only one thinking. Quick disclaimer that nothing in this podcast should be taken as professional advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Because while I am a therapist, I'm not your therapist and I'm not my guest's therapist. So this is intended only to spark interesting conversation. Thanks for tuning in.

Hey there fit fans. I am here today with Jordan Sondler, an illustrator and mental health advocate who lives in New York City. She is the author of Feel It Out, an amazing book that I highly recommend that you grab, and she is a professor at Pratt University. Jordan designs all kinds of things. Murals, television sets, '90s nostalgia diaries, and so much more. And some of her clients include the New York Times, Google, Nickelodeon, the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, Harper Collins, Pottery Barn. We're about to have an amazing discussion. Can't wait to get into it. Jordan, thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you so much for having me.

I just love anyone who firstly goes to therapy, secondly, is outspoken about said therapy, and thirdly, puts their experience of therapy into a form that other people could understand. The way that you visualize therapy with your book is really special because a lot of people don't think in words as much as they think in pictures.

Yeah, that's true. I've been an artist my whole life. It was the only thing that really stuck for me. I took watercolor lessons probably from the age of seven until I was 18 with a bunch of 65 year old women. We were reproducing cutouts from calendars like Thomas Kincade. You remember when people had calendars on their wall?

Yes.

So the woman who were in the studio, she would rip them up and we would pick one of those to reproduce every week.

That's amazing.

Yeah. So I started drawing when I was really young. I started going to therapy when I was 14. My dad was sick and he eventually went on to pass and it was a very dark time for me. It was the first time I dealt with depression and I was severely depressed. When I think about myself in high school, I can't really remember much other than going to school, going to work, but then coming home and just laying in my bed any free minute of the day. And then I went on to art school, but only recently did I actually start making work about therapy, my mental health, and finding a way to talk about things through my art. And I don't know how it took me so long.

But a person sharing the things they've learned in their therapy is actually increasing but it's rare. What was your journey like to decide to put out into the world all of the things that therapy was doing for you?

It's so interesting because I don't really feel like I put as much thought into it as maybe I should have or looking back I would have if I were to do it again because there's so much that comes along with that. I got into this work when I went through a breakup a few years ago and started suffering from anxiety attacks. Around that time I went on medication, but I also felt like I had to find an outlet for myself. It started with illustrating dates, because I had just started dating for the first time in my life because I was with my partner for six and a half years. So he was my first boyfriend and online dating didn't exist before that. Yeah.

A time before time.

Exactly. So yeah, I started with the dating and then at a certain point in time, I had this idea that I really wanted to work on a book. It was actually about being single at first and then transitioned into this book for every single person. Not single people, but every person. And yeah, that's when I started to expand and make work about dating, make work about breakups, make work about being self-aware, where you start with therapy, how you adopt a dog, how you take care of yourself at night, how you set goals for yourself and go on to achieve them. Really just anything

That's amazing. And so this book, Feel It Out, you said if I knew then what I know now, maybe I wouldn't have put it all out there. Why is that? Have you gotten certain reactions to it?

Yeah, it's mixed. It's overwhelmingly been positive. I put this book out and really no one had seen it before that point. And I finished working on the book last May. So I was just sitting with it, forgetting about it, honestly. Forgetting about the content. It was out of sight mind. And then the book came out and I had an idea for all this programming I wanted to do inspired by the book. I wanted to talk to other people about their mental health. And I think when I started putting on that programming and traveling the country a bit to do that with other folks, that's when I started to realize the impact this has on people and also the duty you have when you're in this kind of role. Or I try not to think too hard about what people think of me, but I'm human and I'm insecure.

Of Course.

People have a lot of thoughts and sometimes they're really good and sometimes they're constructive and just really flattering and sometimes people don't get it.

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Do you feel like people are voicing their negative opinions? Are you having to hold those things and deal with them?

I feel really lucky that I haven't ... Maybe after I say this. I'm jinxing myself. But I haven't really read strangers online saying anything too bad about the book, which is great. Some people have been like, "This is too fluffy for me." But I realize not everyone's going to get what I'm doing and it's not going to touch everyone. But I think what has been the toughest thing for me has been how people close to me or people who I hold in high regard respond to what I'm doing. And it's not negative per se, but some people don't understand it.

Can you say more? I get the sense just from hearing you and seeing your face that it has been hurtful.

You can see my face.

Yeah. I know it's vulnerable. Tell me what has the response been that hasn't felt so good or what does it feel like they're not seeing?

One thing I'll start off by saying is that I was never making this type of work before and I had never monetized this type of work. So I'm really at the beginning because when I sold this book and I started making it, I realized this is all I want to do anymore. But it's really hard to go to all your clients and be like, "Hey, do you want to just hire me for totally different work?" That's not how the world works. That's not how my world works. So really I feel like I'm a little bit at the beginning of my career again. And I think a lot of people don't understand that aspect of it. Why I would want to shake things up that much or why I would be resistant to taking on more work designing flamingo patterns.

So on trend though.

Yeah. Sure. And not to poo poo that and I really have loved every step of my career, but since I'm a commercial artist, the way that I make my work is a client comes to me, they have money and they have a vision, I make it, I get paid. So I'm not always making something that feels true to myself or that I'm really excited about. But with this work, I am. In every sense. And the fact that I can find a way to build a career off of that, help other people, and feel like I'm helping myself, now that I've gotten a taste of it, I don't know how to turn back.

I think every artist puts their heart and soul into their work, but this work is literally about your heart and soul.

True.

It's exposed in a beautiful way. Does it feel like it's a courageous thing to be willing to share with the world your experience of therapy?

Yeah. Because I've been in therapy since I was 14, I'm sure there was a time where I was like, "Oh, I'm in therapy. I don't want people to know about that or I'm not going to talk about that." But I cannot remember the last time I felt like that. I will tell any person, like my barista at Starbucks, I'm in therapy. I will tell the world that I'm on SSRIs because I really attribute being in therapy to everything great that has ever happened to me.

Same. Same. Hard same.

Yeah. It hasn't been talking about therapy that has me feeling insecure. It's more talking about what's in my head or my feelings. And the interesting thing outside of the book where people are seeing this art is on my Instagram. So I think people really recently especially have started to feel like they know me based on the work that I post. And I wish I could say the work that I'm posting, it's what I feel like is most important to talk about. It's not 100% of my life. 100% my thoughts in the moment. So I think sometimes especially people close to me are worried for me and that can have me really hesitant about sharing.

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And you had mentioned something earlier about having a duty to share. And I really share that sentiment because there are people out there for whom it would not be safe to share that they're in therapy. They really can't tell their community about that. And so it feels to me like those of us who do feel safe, we should do it as much as we can as far and wide as we can. Because then the word gets spread on behalf of people who might not be in a position to spread it themselves.

Absolutely. The other thing is one of the most gratifying things to come from this is between the book, between what I post on Instagram, and between the programming I've been putting together I've had a lot of people reach out and tell me that they're seeking out therapy for the first time or for the first time in eight years. And that is so cool.

That's huge. Yeah. Whenever I talk about therapy, I try to talk about it as a patient, instead of a therapist.

I love that.

Because anyone can sell their job, but when I talk about what it's done for me, I think it's more powerful.

I think that's why I did the book. Because I love self-help books. This can be a gateway drug into more self-help books. I hope that it encourages people to go to therapy because this isn't therapy. This is stuff I've learned in therapy.

Well that maybe leads us to what our discussion is of centering around today, which is you mentioned, well, I'm not a mental health professional, but I talk about mental health and that positions me in a really unique way in our culture. And I've gotten various kinds of feedback about that. So what's that been like having put this out there? I could see how someone would look at this book and it's really thoughtful. And so in a way, the first time I saw it, I thought you were a therapist and I thought you were giving-

Oh no. I don't like that.

It comes from a really lovely place though. I agreed with a lot of it as a therapist.

That's amazing.

And then there were other things in there that I'm like, oh no, this is unique. This is your journey. This is your perspective. So I'm curious how that's felt for you as you've put it out there.

I think my biggest insecurity in life is being misunderstood. And I have no idea. Is that most people's biggest insecurity or is that just mine?

It's definitely one of them.

Okay. I just never want anyone to think that I think I'm a mental health professional. I think that is something that has been projected on me that people don't want me to confuse others about that. And I would never intentionally do that. And I think that's my biggest insecurity ever since the book came out. Because I see value in someone like me talking about their experience, prompting others to talk about their experiences. Just like you said, we all have to speak out about this, about being in therapy and be as open and honest as possible to inspire other people. And that's why I started doing this. Yeah, I've had people question what I'm doing.

Yeah. It feels important to me for it to come on both sides. But I think hearing from someone who's actually been affected by it alongside the mental health professionals talking about it feels really important.

Glad you agree. I obviously need your validation.

Don't we all need validation? Especially something like this. It'd be like publishing a handful of pages out of your journal and then being like, "So, what do y'all think?"

Exactly.

It's really vulnerable.

I know. I've never made anything like this in my life. Actually, I can't remember the last time I felt so vulnerable. I don't know. It's messed with me a little bit. And as much as it's done that, I still just love it. And I just actually got my first commission to do work exactly like this.

Nice.

I'm really excited about that. And so yeah, stuff like that just confirms I am on the right path. I just have to keep going and just listen to myself.

Well, sorry to take it dark a little bit, but you said it's messed me up a little bit. How? Because the whole idea of this podcast is we're all scared about talking about these things and you've just gone ahead and done it and I'm sure people want to know well what could happen?

Of course. Yes. I have been putting on events in New York, San Francisco, LA, San Diego, Portland, now more back in New York. I'm sure I'll do some more on the east coast. And it's been really amazing, but I work for myself and I don't have a team. Like a PR powerhouse team behind me. I don't even have one intern behind me. But actually physically going to all these places, speaking, it's been really taxing and exhausting. And it's basically like this podcast just seven times with me and then sometimes with other people. But it's been very intense and it's been very revealing about my feelings and my life and things that I go through. And there's a lot of things that I hold onto that I don't talk about and that's how I have some self preservation. But I think a lot of people, they try to draw conclusions and I think everyone is so well meaning. But I think some people think that they know more about me than they do.

And a lot of times I'm sharing because I just want it to be helpful to someone else. I actually recently experimented with taking the commenting off on my Instagram because I posted something about how I was not having a great time, but I know things are going to get better and I didn't want a bunch of people to say, "Are you okay? I'm thinking about ..." And that's lovely. And I love that response, but that wasn't why I was posting it. And the more I get that, the more I feel sometimes ... I am questioning myself. Am I posting this because I want a bunch of strangers to cheer me up? And then I'm like, no, that's not why I'm posting it. But that just so happens to be a side effect of that.

What do you think would happen if you were clear about what you did want from the community? If at the end of the post, you said, "Hey, instead of checking up on me, what I'd really love is for you to share your own inspirational story." Or whatever. And just asked for it?

I love that. And then when you started saying that, I also thought about, I could also say check in on one of your friends or check in on a family member because that's really what I want you to do. And I really want you to understand that I'm not the only person out there with a mental illness. I'm not the only person who needs to be checked in on by my therapist or my friends and family.

You've done this in a really unique way though. So I can tell you that confidentiality is one of the most central pillars of therapy. Of all of my years of learning how to be a therapist, I can't tell you what percentage of the time I was being reminded that confidentiality is important. We're not even allowed to confirm or deny if a person is in therapy period. And here you are taking everything you've learned about yourself in therapy, you've drawn it out and you've published it for the world. It's a really unique stance.

Yeah. It sounds insane when you say that.

But I'm grateful because I guarantee there are people who've looked through this who relate to it and I'm sure there are people who look through it who thought, "I want that." What's that feel like?

Yeah. I think that's what was fun about writing the intro to this. I gave everyone a glimpse of where I was coming from. I've also had so many body image issues my entire life and I never was able to really accept myself. And then it was this breakup and these anxiety attacks were the catalyst for me just figuring things out. Even though I had been in therapy for a while, I was like, I need to just figure this out for myself. Yeah. It's been really amazing. I also had a mental breakdown when I was working on the book because I ... Have you ever written a book before?

I've started.

Oh. Amazing. That's awesome and you need to tell me about it. But I will tell you if you're going to write and illustrate a 150 page book, you shouldn't give yourself three months to do that because I did that. And so at one point I was creating six pages a day. I was just in it with myself. Just myself.

It's not even just six pages period. It's six pages of your deepest, darkest triggers and-

Totally. And it's like, how do I make it look like fun and enjoyable and quirky and funny and colorful?

Yeah. It's like the irony of how do I put myself out there totally authentically, but of course I still want everyone to like it?

I know. Oh God. I know. I don't know. I was concerned because I think some of the people who were working on the book ... Not may editor. My editor was wonderful. But some people didn't know what it was. And I'm not sure if they had read the book. People at my publisher didn't know what this book was. So that was really interesting to navigate. I sold the book a couple years ago and a lot of people now are coming out with illustrated memoirs and more illustrated things in the wellness realm. But really Mari Andrews was the only person who had a book out at the time. And it was after I sold my book that came out and then I was like, whoa, okay. Yeah. But now it's like so everyone is working on this stuff, which is cool. That and seeing my peers and people I admire and discovering new people who are working in the similar vein, really validates for me what I'm doing.

There's no question that the mental health revolution is happening right now. And I think about a game of Jenga and every time someone does something like what you've done, a piece is taken out and at some point the tower will fall and that's a good thing. That's the tower of stigma and the tower of-

Oh. I love that analogy.

Yeah. And so did any one thing a person did cause it? No. But we're all contributing. That's important.

I'm going to think about everything like that now.

So would you be willing to flip through the book, pick a page and tell us a little bit about what inspired it or what was it like to do it? Don't let me trick you into sharing any feelings you don't want to share.

Okay. No, I'm so into this. I just flipped to a random page and I feel like I could do it for the whole book.

Yeah. Great.

Because I remember very vividly what each page or spread was about when I was working on it, which is wild. So I flipped to how to not lose yourself in a relationship, probably because it's halfway through the book. So that's where the book folds. And by the time I got out of that six and a half year relationship, I had no idea who I was or what I wanted. And I was left in this apartment that we had lived in together for three and a half years. And with all of our stuff that we had together. And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing anymore. I really didn't know what I was doing.

And then it took me some time to recover. To find myself again and to realize that, oh, I like going out with friends. I forgot that I like going out with friends. I forgot that I like to walk around the city. Things I think I stopped doing because I was my own boss and I was really hustling all the time to make ends meet, to grow my career and then I was balancing this really big relationship. And I live in New York where it takes 40 minutes to get to each other. To get to friends. I really picked my priorities and they weren't the things that really make me happy. I just had a very small piece of the pie that I focused on for years. And that was unfortunate because when my relationship ended, I didn't even have those things anymore really. I had to rebuild those things for myself.

And now that I'm on the other side of that, I would do everything so differently. And so this spread is about how you can prevent that. So it says things like put your needs first, don't make yourself small, see a therapist, compromise, but be sure it's balanced. Never love anyone more than yourself. Don't bury your feelings to avoid confrontation. Take trips without each other. Be open and honest from the beginning. Do not allow your friendships to fade. Don't guys. It didn't work out for me. Don't cancel plans just because your partner can't make it. And that wasn't even all of them. But I tried to balance them with common sense, lighthearted things like don't stop talking to all your friends and then also things that are about self-awareness and being in touch with your actual needs.

And so the context of this is these are the things that worked for you or things you wish you had known.

Yeah. These are things that are valuable to me when I'm not in a relationship. I haven't been in a relationship in a while. And I could see how I would've been a much happier person in my relationship had I had any of these things going on.

But here's my question. Let's say we could rewind back to when you started this relationship and someone said, "Hey, I have a thought for you about how not to get lost in your relationship. Here's a beautiful picture that illustrates a bunch of things." How many of these things do you think you could have done differently just by seeing a different way and how much do you think you had to learn that lesson yourself?

Oh, I have to learn every lesson myself. Every single lesson. There are so many things that my therapist has told me, my mom's told me, my best friends have told me. And I'm like, that's cool. Yeah, I get that that didn't work for you, but that might not be the case for me. Maybe I definitely need to see what it's like to go on two dates in a day or maybe I definitely need to work six days straight just to get this deadline done and make a little bit of money for something really cool and then burn myself out. And there is some validity to this. What works for my mom isn't necessarily going to work for me, but unfortunately I have to figure those things out for myself. And the thing about that is I learn from my mistakes or from things that don't work for me and I won't do them again.

Yeah. I heard once the idea that advice is spoken in the language of experience. So if you don't have the experience, you don't speak that language and so it's not helpful.

Oh, that is so wise. So yeah, basically what you are maybe saying, and what I'm thinking is if I read this, I don't know that I would've been like, "Yeah, that's exactly what I need to do so I don't break up with my boyfriend in four years." I hadn't always been unhappy in my relationship too. And if I had been and I had read something like this, it would remind me like, oh ... Just like therapy does for me. I go in and I get reset every week. And I'm like, things are put in perspective for me. Maybe I have a game plan to tackle something. I feel like some of the stuff in this book can just remind you. There's nothing in this book you don't know. There's nothing in this book you've never heard before. And if that's the case, I guess I'm a genius. I've never thought of myself like that but let me know if you think I'm a genius. Yeah. Everything in this book you know so it's just about reading something that clicks and you're like, "Oh yeah, I forgot that that's actually really important to me."

Yeah. I say a lot that I don't believe people go to therapy because they don't know what to do. I think people go to therapy because they do know what to do and need help understanding why they're not doing it. So to me, I think the person who's going to be most affected by opening up to this page is someone who's already starting to think about these things and it's validating to see that someone else is there or has been there too.

For sure.

Right. The person who's just starting a relationship all wide-eyed and excited is probably going to be like, "Oh no, no." But the person who feels lost in their relationship, I can imagine it's really comforting to see, oh, this is something other people have dealt with and are dealing with.

Yeah. Literally, this started as a book about being single because I wanted a book about being single. I wanted a book that was a guide to breakups because there wasn't anything like that when I got out of my relationship. And so I made that. But now it's not a ... Guys, it's a book about being single. That's a small part of it.

So what do you think are some misconceptions about therapy? What are things people think from the outside until they get in?

Oh my God. Okay. A lot of people ask me, "Do you always know what you're going to talk about? Or do you go to therapy to talk about a specific thing?" The answer is no. A lot of times now that I've been seeing my therapist, we just are in a groove. We've been together for a while. And of course things come up in my week and I reflect on them and I know it's something I need to discuss but from the time that I step in the door and I leave, we usually end up talking about something completely different.

People often want the therapist to start, but the patient knows better than the therapist does what's important. And I feel like you can start anywhere and you'll naturally get to the important things. Some of my most productive sessions as a patient where, when I thought, "Oh, I have nothing to talk about today. I guess I'll just talk about the weather, whatever." And then cut to 20 minutes later I'm sobbing about something.

Oh my God. Yes, of course. Yeah. Usually my therapist just has to say to me, "So how are you doing?" And then it's just the whole hour is taken up by me. She interjects, but it's just a stream of consciousness. It's not like here are some bullet points. Which you could totally do and that's so valid. But I just like to let go and see what has been ... It has interesting to see what has sat with me that week or what has that with me that we've been discussing for weeks. There's always something on my mind. I live alone. I am single. I spend so much time in my head just thinking about things and being alone so maybe part of it is just unleashing on someone because I'm not doing that constantly.

Yeah. How often do we have the privilege of someone listening intently to us?

I think we take it for granted.

Yeah. And they're not in a rush and they're not invested in any particular outcome. It feels like a blessing.

Yeah. I think a way to look at it too, for people who haven't been to therapy, don't you sometimes expect that or want that of your friends and it's unfair and it's not logical? So you could go to therapy and you can pay to have that.

Yeah. That's another myth. Maybe I want to dispel one myth from the therapist side, which is a lot of people think that it's a one-sided relationship because there's money involved. But I can tell you as a therapist, therapists care very deeply about their patients. I spend more time with any given patient than I do, 90% of the people in my life. A full hour every single week. And you really grow to care about them very much.

My therapist will check in on me when she knows that something is going on. I know that she really cares and really loves me and I really love her a lot.

Yeah. It's a really powerful relationship. And it's a unique one too. It's not really like anything else which makes it confusing.

Totally.

It's super intimate, but very boundaried.

Oh man. You're right.

Yeah. I love talking about therapy with people who love therapy.

I love it so much that I want everyone I know to be in therapy.

Yes. I've been on a mission. I've gotten quite a few people in my life into therapy. And I'd be remiss if I didn't name the hard truth of it, which is that therapy is a privileged service.

Yes.

Of course not everyone can afford it time wise and not everyone can afford it money wise. I do think there are a lot of misconceptions about it though. Yes, standard therapy is really expensive, but there are also sliding scale clinics out there that cost $30 a session and-

I'm in sliding scale therapy.

Yeah. It's definitely an option. And again, there are some people who just aren't going to be able to do it, but I think there are a lot more people who think it's not an option than that's actually the case for.

I know. It is really hard, especially when medication comes into play too. It's not so black and white. That's the thing about this therapy world.

Again, it's meta. Nothing in life is black and white and if you can work through that-

But I want it to be.

Don't we all? Wouldn't that make things so much simpler?

That's how my head is wired, so yes.

Yeah. I think that's one of the most universal things in the world. I think we all wish that things were just good or just bad and we could just avoid the bad things and get the good things and that'd be that.

I know. But then it's nice that it's like, well, I could do a bad thing, but I'm not a bad person.

Yeah. That is a great distinction. Well, the way that I wrap up my podcast episodes is I'm going to give you a list of taboo questions that span-

Whoa.

Right. Our podcast is about sex, money, drugs, death, therapy, all kinds of taboo things. And you've been focusing more in the therapy realm. But I'm going to give you questions that span all of them.

Oh cool.

And you don't have to-

Mom, don't listen to this part.

So you get to pick whichever question feels answerable to you, read it out loud and then answer it.

I love this.

So here's the list.

Wow. Okay. I got it. It's not that scandalous. I'm pretty sad.

You can scandal it up if you want.

There isn't a way, but it's okay. So what is your favorite personality trait in yourself?

Oh, you know what? It's scandalous in the sense that a lot of people don't feel like it's okay to talk about that.

Oh okay.

So hell yeah. Good for you. Thank you.

Well, I do actually love myself and I would've never been able to say that years ago, so I just embrace it now.

That's amazing.

As a person who loves themself should. My favorite trait is my humor.

Nice.

Yeah. But it's a double edged sword. If you tell me that I'm funny or you think I'm funny, oh my God. That is the biggest ... Beyond saying that you think I'm talented, you like my art, you think my voice has validity to it. If you tell me I'm funny, I will be your best friend.

Oh yeah. I'm the same.

I will date you until I die. But it's also definitely a coping mechanism. It's definitely avoidant a lot of times. That I don't love. Especially because it a lot of times can portray to people that I feel a certain way and I don't.

Yeah. Would you rather have your partner think you're funny or you think your partner's funny?

So hard because I've tried to have both and I don't think it works.

I'm sure that's a possibility, but let's say you had to pick.

Well, I think a lot of the humorous people that I've tried to be with in the past, they use humor the same way, to deflect their feelings, so we're just a mess together. So maybe I just want my partner to think I'm funny and then also, maybe that partner can ask me from time to time how I'm doing.

Aw, I love that so much.

Thanks.

Yeah. So every now and then you crack a joke and they say, "No, but really, how are you?"

Yeah, exactly.

Oh, I love that.

I'd love that. What a beautiful piece of advice.

I'd love that too. Let me know if you find someone like that for me.

Okay. Great. I'll add that to the wanted list.

Yeah.

Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I just have so much admiration for people who are willing to put it out there because it's a hard thing to do and I think it benefits everyone. The more work we do on ourself, the more everyone benefits. There's no question to that. But then to also be able to be vocal about that work, I think is powerful. So thank you for coming on and sharing all of that.

Well, thank you so much. Thank you for validating me. And this was the greatest honor to be on this podcast. I'm actually really, really excited for what you guys are doing.

Thank you so much.

Thanks for listening to Emotionally Fit, hosted by me, Dr. Emily Anhalt. New Taboo Tuesdays drop every other week. How did today's taboo subject land with you? Tweet your experience with the hashtag, #emotionallyfit and follow me at Dr. Emily Anhalt. Please rate, review, follow, and share the show wherever you listen to podcasts. This podcast is produced by Coa, your gym for mental health where you can take live, therapist-led classes online. From group sessions to therapist matchmaking, Coa will help you build your emotional fitness routine. Head to joincoa.com. That's joinC-O-A.com to learn more, and follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @joincoa. From StudioPod Media in San Francisco, our producer is Katie Sunku Wood. Music is by Milano. Special thanks to the entire Coa crew.