Organisations today face a heightened risk of reputational damage due to an increasingly sensitive public that is quick to take offense at corporate actions and decisions.

Understanding the complex social, political, and environmental dynamics at play is essential for leaders looking to navigate this challenging landscape.

Claudia MacDonald of Mango Communications, Alan McDonald of EMA and Fred Russo of Botica Butler Raudon join HMC Managing Director Heather Claycomb for this fast-paced episode.

This episode dives into the importance of being prepared and having a proactive approach to communication, emphasising the need for businesses to cultivate situational awareness and trust in their values. Our panel of PR experts discusses real-world examples and offers actionable insights on how to effectively manage public perception and mitigate risks. By integrating strategic communication into business operations, organisations can better engage with their communities and safeguard their reputations.

The episode presents a comprehensive exploration of the evolving landscape in which organisations operate, highlighting the critical role of public relations in managing reputational risks. As community dynamics shift, fueled by growing distrust in institutions and the rapid dissemination of information through social media, businesses must navigate a delicate balancing act. The discussion features insights from top PR leaders who emphasise the importance of awareness and preparation in the face of potential crises. They stress that organisations need to maintain a proactive stance, recognising that seemingly benign actions can provoke unexpected backlash from the community. By cultivating a culture of transparency and open dialogue, organisations can better anticipate public reactions and manage their reputations effectively.

Throughout the conversation, the panelists share compelling examples of businesses that have successfully navigated crises by adhering to their core values and maintaining a clear narrative. They discuss the pitfalls of self-censorship and the tendency to overreact to public criticism, advocating instead for a measured approach that focuses on building goodwill and trust within the community. The importance of having a crisis communication plan in place is underscored, with a call for organisations to practice these plans regularly and to involve communication experts in their decision-making processes. This strategic approach is essential in a landscape where public perception can shift rapidly, and where the consequences of inaction can be severe.

The episode culminates in a discussion about the future of reputation management in an increasingly complex world. The panelists argue that organisations must broaden their perspective to include social, political, and environmental factors that may influence their operations and reputations. By integrating these considerations into their risk assessments and decision-making processes, businesses can better navigate the challenges of today’s media environment. The leaders conclude with a powerful reminder: investing in reputation management is not just about avoiding crisis; it’s about building a resilient and trusted brand that can thrive amidst change. The insights shared in this episode offer valuable guidance for business leaders striving to uphold their reputations in a time of heightened scrutiny and expectation.

Takeaways:

• Organisations must understand the heightened risk of community backlash against corporate actions today.
• A comprehensive risk register should include social and political issues affecting reputations.
• Proactive communication strategies can help mitigate potential reputational damage during crises.
• Companies need to prepare for swift social media reactions and misinformation campaigns.
• Establishing strong relationships with trusted PR advisors is crucial for navigating crises effectively.
• Understanding and adapting to community dynamics is essential for maintaining a positive public image.

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• HMC
• Mango Communications
• EMA (Employer & Manufacturers Association)
• BBR (Botica, Butler & Raudon)
• McDonald's
• Budweiser
• Ben and Jerry's

You're listening to Crunch, a podcast by award winning public relations agency hmc. Crunch stands for Crucial chats over lunch.

These are bite sized discussions for business leaders that can easily be digested over your lunch hour, on your morning commute, or whenever you listen to your favourite podcasts. Crunch tackles a variety of topics to help business leaders build their knowledge in strategic communication and public relations.

On behalf of the HMC team, it's our privilege to welcome you into Crunch.

Hello everyone. I'm Heather Claycomb, Director of HMC and I'm joined by three of New Zealand's top PR leaders for today's Crunch episode.

Sitting around the table with me are Claudia McDonald, executive director, Mango Communications, Alan McDonald, head of advocacy and strategy for EMA, and Fred Russo, Managing Partner for Budape Butler Rowden. Thank you for joining us today.

Yara.

Hello.

So today we are talking about the shifting dynamics in our community and how these dynamics have the potential for not only impacting business operations, but business reputations as well. So just to give you some context, what do I mean by shifting dynamics, community dynamics?

Well, specifically I'm talking about things like the rising distrust of government and authority, global wars, unrest, international issues, the economic crisis, if you want to call it that, that we're in at the moment. Of course we can ignore social media and how the algorithms are getting more and more powerful.

It's serving us up, misinformation, disinformation and maybe just warping our views somewhat from the truth.

And sitting here today after the US election, we can't ignore world leaders out there like Donald Trump spreading false information, fanning flames of racism and division.

So if that hasn't depressed you, we're going to kick off a conversation and I guess it's with that lens that we're going to talk today about what do boards, executive teams and individual leaders need to do to arm themselves for this heightened layer of risk as we strive to communicate and engage with our communities? So there you go. Welcome all. So I guess to kick off, I'd like to hear from you guys on what you're experiencing out there.

Hopefully I'm not the only one because then it'll be a really short podcast. But yeah, we're just really seeing companies caught a little bit off guard with doing things that seem like bau.

But all of a sudden the community sort of coming out left field with some reactions that they didn't expect. Opening it up to the floor here. What have you guys seen?

Well, I think most boards and certainly the management teams now do have that lens of where's the fishhook in this?

Even if you think you are doing the right thing, and often you are, but there are people that just take offence so easily and so readily, even at things that are untrue, or if you try and say to them, actually that's not right, that doesn't matter anymore. One grumpy anonymous person on X or TikTok or whatever is a news story these days.

That's right.

And there's, you know, nine paragraphs of I've been wronged and deadly wronged and I'm deeply offended and these guys are not very nice. And one paragraph that actually said, well, no, that's not the case and that's the end of it.

But as an ex journalist, you know how short attention spans can be even before the Internet and various social media and people just aren't willing to countenance or read or have the patience to hear the counter argument. So you really have to be in advance, prepared or make sure you don't make the slip in advance.

And I think that's something that's coming through much stronger than it has done in the past.

Yeah, that's a really good point, actually.

I think preparation is absolutely key. We need to be boy and girl scouts.

But the other thing I would counsel is don't stop doing things just because you're terrified that you might get caught up in some sort of cancellation activity. Cause that would be the worst thing is to go quiet.

Self censorship is a real issue, particularly where you. There's a Twitter storm or something or an X storm now, isn't it?

There's a tendency to react too soon and you should actually be waiting, I think, a bit longer rather than jumping straight in. And I've often asked the question of my clients in a previous life, well, is it actually hurting your sales? Is it doing any harm to your business?

And they go, well, no, I say, well, just, you know, you've got a good reputation already, use what's in the bank instead of jumping into the argument because you will fan the flames.

And I think sometimes, you know, haven't we seen that?

If you do let something negative ride on social, often your community, your fans jump in there and they sort of can tamp it down for you before you need to do it yourself, which is strong.

There's a couple things in there and I think one of them is risk, especially at that board and director level, which is there is just much more out there. I mean, I won't really have meetings with a closed office door anymore. And I know a lot of people feel the same way for various reasons.

And to get to what Alan was saying about anyone can feel slighted.

There is a way that someone, no matter who they are, no matter what you have said, like someone out there will disagree with you and they'll feel very strongly about that.

And part of the reason I know we're gonna talk about it later is how that plays into the Internet and how no matter how you feel or what you think, there is a community waiting for you with open arms to tell you were right all along. Whereas you used to be, you know, marginalized because of those views you now supported.

There's absolutely nothing new in this other than the speed at which it works.

Because I remember decades ago something about the LA riots and McDonald's and how McDonald's had spent a lot of time keeping their reputation really strong in the community. And when the LA riots came along, it was the only place left standing because they had looked after their reputation, looked after their community.

That's just an in real life version of the Internet these days.

I think that's a really important point, is trust in the beliefs that you've had. If you're a business that says we do X, Y and Z, then you don't need to have a quick reverse because there's a bit of noise somewhere.

And I'll give you an example that we saw here. A young employee did something that was really dumb, right? It was at a Christmas party and we know how they can go out of control.

And he went out of control and he did something really stupid and quite offensive. There were howls of outrage because it was an big firm and it went public and he should be sacked and all this sort of carry on.

And actually the business, one of the values that they had was we believe and we work with our people. And they did that. They went through a process with him. They said, look, you were out of order and he accepted it. Fair enough.

So instead of firing you, which we could do, we're going to work with you to give you the second chance because we believe in our people. And they did that. And actually they got a lot of praise for sticking that rather than just reacting immediately and biffing him out the door.

Right.

You mentioned before, you know, is this hurting your business? Was a question you asked. And in the terms of Budweiser, it was hurting their business.

When they backed the trans individual that they did and pushed out that massive ad campaign, the backlash was instant and ferocious and it cost them an Enormous amount in sales, so it can go too far. Finding balance here in New Zealand as well, I think is a lot easier than in, you know, our home country, Heather.

Yes, yes.

Where everything is black or white and there is no in between. So, yeah, there's risk, and how you manage it in the moment really matters.

Well, you saw that with the Washington Post not endorsing a candidate in New Zealand, everyone's like, why would they endorse a candidate? And they lost 250,000 readers because they didn't endorse somebody. Come on. That's a massive overreaction.

They're actually living the principles of being good journalists and they get caned for it.

Yeah, but even some of their journalists quit because they wanted to see the paper backing. It was interesting.

They're not real journalists if they quit for something that easy.

The problem with that is that they did something that they didn't normally do and they did it really late in the piece, so it looked like they had been coerced into doing something. So they had poor advice, but perhaps they didn't have any choice.

They probably didn't take the staff with them either.

Yeah, no.

It was a scary, as you say, it happened last minute. Whereas if Bezos or whoever it was that finally made the decision, stepped in and said, this is why we're doing this. It's happening tomorrow.

And away we go. So probably miscommunication in there.

And I think it's going back to what you said just a few minutes ago, Alan, is. It's like, you know, trust comes from people knowing what your values are and you living them, you know, and that real match there, you know?

But people have seen what the Washington Post has done in elections ever since the early 80s, but then they did something totally different. So it's like, then it's like, oh, you know, we're going to react with our subscription, with our feet. Yeah.

People don't like surprises in real life or in business. And so you actually need to signal things all along. It does make it difficult when.

When something's blowing up and how you do some reactions really, really quickly. It's difficult.

Yeah, it is. But again, I think sometimes the temptation to react should be avoided. If you look an example over the weekend.

So there was the attack on Jewish citizens in Amsterdam after the football game. And the first reaction was, these are football thugs doing antisemitic violence. And it wasn't.

The story evolved and it turned out it was very targeted and very deliberate by another group. And it wasn't that and actually, to their credit, I thought the mayor and the politicians actually stepped.

They condemned the attack in the first place, but they didn't blame. And that's the temptation that happens is there's a blame game that starts straight away.

They actually sat back and waited until they had the right information and then were able to dampen things down.

I suppose, though, there's a time to. When you need to act quickly too, just to be the defense advocate, because it could blow up if you don't get in there and get the truth.

I totally agree. And I think a lot of businesses and a lot of people in government departments are very, very slow to react.

And nature boils a vacuum and so does the news media. So it's an interesting thing.

I was doing some media training the other week and we were talking about at what point do you leap in and being able to provide some sort of timeline, like, oh, I acknowledge that that's going on and we're looking into it, so we'll come back to you within the hour. So it's actually managing when you let people know and give yourself more time to find out what's going on.

But don't say nothing even if you're saying nothing. Yes.

Yeah.

I think some of that slow to react stuff's a function of the way a number of corporates and particularly government departments are set up. You know, you've got 10 layers of sign off to work up and then another nine coming back down.

And by the time you're ready to say something, it's probably too bland and has been committeeized and doesn't make any sense unless you're speaking, you know, gobbledygook. It's important, I think, as those situations evolve, to go, hey, where's McComms director? Or where's my key comms person here?

Get them to the table now, please. I don't want to be spending six or seven layers or whatever it is. Get them here now.

Or my preference has always been to have them part of the team anyway, not reporting to HR because that's just about the worst place to put a comms person, I think, so those sorts of things. It's also being aware that the situation is evolving fast. I need the right expertise.

If I haven't got it on hand, I need it in the room now and do that to.

Have you practiced your crisis comms plan? Do you have one or is it just in a folder in the bottom drawer and no one's seen it in a decade?

Do people actually practice those things?

They do. We have a few heavy industry clients where an accident tends to mean something significant has happened. And we do. Yeah.

We go through the war room situation. We practice and more businesses need to do that in this environment because there is so much more risk.

I also think the risk register, which used to be somebody might get injured. I think the risk register actually needs to include trends on TikTok. You know, it's actually.

It does.

I hate the word woke, but I often think you need to be awake to what's woke because if you know what's woke, then you know where your risks are lying.

Yeah. And I think it's like really important too that you really broaden your view of what those issues are.

And I suppose that's what we're talking about today that can affect your little old business here in New Zealand. As businesses. I think we need to broaden our view of what are the things that can create issues in our business as we're making decisions.

Jamie Oliver, I mentioned this to you guys once before, has three people. His cultural sensitivity attaches whatever he calls them.

Point is, they're PR people and what they make sure he does is not culturally appropriate things like Jamaican jerk chicken.

And ironically, I think it was this morning I read that he's pulling an entire book because he stepped all over an Aboriginal tribe somewhere in Australia.

Yeah.

So even with the right help and the right advice, it's extremely hard to get it right all the time. So expect to make mistakes. Yeah.

You can't underestimate how far and how fast it's gonna go. I mean, the cat killing competition was a beauty. Oh, God. Feral cats are a pest. I've shot them when I was a kid growing up on a farm.

You know, they are vicious.

Alan's in trouble now.

Here comes the social justice warrior storm. But I'm not online for anything, so you guys go right ahead. I'm not bothered.

But you know, that's something that culturally almost in New Zealand is just part of the background. That's what happens on farms all day long, every day. And then it just goes all around the world.

Aren't they horrible people killing these poor moggies?

You know, I think some of the organisations that actually suffer the most from the Kibor warriors and all the rest of it are not actually the big corporates, though of course they're going to suffer. But it's actually New Zealand's small businesses, you know, the people who don't have advisors and they just think, oh, I'll just talk to the media.

That'll be fin.

And I'll say what I think and then something blows up for them and it's very, very difficult because they don't know what they've done wrong, other than be themselves. But I think these days we have to be ourselves in a very sanitized way.

Yeah. And I mean, that's 80% of New Zealand, isn't it? You know, not for profits and small businesses.

So, yeah, UK, 98%.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Good stat.

There are some businesses that have a history of social involvement, like Ben and Jerry's is a really good one, where they have always taken a stand very publicly, but it's built into their DNA and they've been doing it for decades. So when they come out for something and whether it be Black Lives Matters or Kamala Harris, it's not a surprise to anybody.

Everybody knows who they are and what they've been doing the whole time and it works for them.

Yeah. But also, as a business, that's sort of my area. You should also not be afraid to say, look, we're not going to enter into that argument.

It's not part of what we do. And our organisation has this every now. And why isn't your voice in this argument? We represent our members. You might think it's an important issue.

It's not an issue for them. We're not going to comment on it.

Yeah.

I think with more and more social issues coming to the fore, I think it's important as a business that you decide what are we for and what are we against and what are we going to be public about? And when we're not particularly that younger generation coming up, they do want to see more of that. What is the place where I work?

What do they think about that? But yet it's not always appropriate to even have a stance. Publicity.

Yeah. And that's the difference. It should be recognised that you don't have to have a view. One of my.

My pet hates is the Prime Minister of this country has to have a view on everything. Why? It's not important. It's like asking a celebrity what they think. It's really not that important.

Yeah. Who cares? Yeah. At the end of the day. Yeah. You touched a little bit, Alan, on the media side of things, and I think.

I don't know if you guys are finding this and is it anything new, but when some of these issues have come up with our clients, you know, where do you go first? Well, you go to trying to help them understand the truth, but I think more so than Ever before.

These issues can be complicated and media doesn't have time for complicated. What we're seeing more and more is even if we can dispel this myth that you're reporting on, it doesn't matter.

And you know, it's the last paragraph and a 10 paragraph story. So do you guys think that's even worse than it's been in the past? Do you think it's kind of the same? What are you finding?

It's same same, but different. You know, I think the thing is that the media have got, especially the big ones have got a need to move material through. And yes, they.

But it's not going to last very long. It goes back to that preparedness. It's actually having a good relationship with some key media that talk to the people you need to talk to.

So it's actually being again, having relationships.

I was with Mark Jennings from Newsroom the other day and he was saying he actually thinks that the earned media landscape is shrinking and that means that actually having good relationships with as many journalists as you can who understand what you're all about. He also thought that we should do a bit of paid content every now and again. But to be fair, it's one way of getting your story across.

So we shouldn't be adverse to it if it's going to help us tell our story.

I've got an escalation path that I use and the first one is do we just starve it of oxygen if it is a pretty big issue and I'm on speed dial for a few people. Yeah, like we have nothing to add is a very strong statement that isn't no comment, Never say no comment.

But there's a couple other things you can do. And I guess when I get to what Claudia was saying, it's what Michael Citric calls the lead steer.

Like who's the one guy that all other journalists will follow and listen to and also be a little bit grumpy. He got first. Yeah, because it makes it go away the rest of the way.

And you can compartmentalize a bit of that bad news or a bit of that issues coverage in one spot with that tactic. So I work through the path.

Yes, that's a really good idea, being an ex journalist.

And I don't want to say it was better in my day, but it was better in my day.

It was better in your day.

I do think that there's a tendency to jump too quick into something. I'll give you an example. One, it's from Employment Relations. We do A lot of work in that area.

One of the areas that we used to talk, well, still talk about is the things you can't do when you're hiring people.

And one of our presenters of this particular course used to use a visual of a very heavily tattooed punk wine to say, actually all the things that you don't want to hire her for, you can't do. And one person didn't hear can't and heard can.

So we ended up, and to make things worse, it was a political candidate for a party whose name I won't mention, who was at this thing, which is a confidential thing, by the way.

Wow.

But that didn't stop a politician leaking it. Right. And there was this whole brief media flutter which we chose not to engage in because it was just going to make it.

As Fred says, the oxygen was there. So starving. It's good.

I personally don't like intern week or month when some of the TV stations and radio stations bring in the interns, those fresh faced young things, very keen. That's great. But sometimes there just isn't a story there, guys. There really isn't. And that's a learned thing.

And we've all probably got journalists that we lean on in that respect going, hey, this is how it's running. This is the problem, this is the issue. That's not the story. And that's why you need trusted, good PR media advisors. That's the strength of them.

Right? Is taking the heat out of those things. But in turn, week's a nightmare and.

Hopefully they listen to you.

Well, that's a good start because sometimes they don't.

No, of course not.

One of the things I would, and this is not about the media, but one of the things I'd advise anybody who's in a position as a CEO or a CFO or something of an organization is start thinking beyond your own backyard. I mean, it's one of the things I say to the young people at work is not all our clients are 25 year old girls who have been to aut to study comms.

So think about other people. And you need to get your spidey senses out and read media that your audience is reading and understand what the subtext is.

And I think there's an awful lot of.

And it's nothing to disparage boomers or Gen X or whatever, but you know, we have a certain way of looking at things that's historic and that's not the way it is looked at anymore. And we have to be more them.

Yeah, that's a good point.

That was something I was thinking about earlier too is, you know, how do we, we, the collective, we as people working in pr, how do we keep a lens on these issues? And just what you're saying there is, it's being well read. And I do worry about that younger generation.

They're not going to the Herald for their news.

39% of people under the age of 30 in Americ get their news from TikTok.

Wow. Yeah.

And these people on TikTok are getting their news from the news media and people who put the information out there. So it's just getting filtered in a language they want to and can understand. So yeah, they will get the news.

It's just maybe a little bit distorted by the time it comes to them.

I think we're probably fortunate in New Zealand in that the last Edelman Trust barometer that came out said that New Zealanders are the most skeptical audience of scientists social media in the world.

Yeah, that's.

That's a good thing.

Yeah.

Long may it continue.

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think being cynical, I hate to say it, but I think being cynical is really good. Definitely skill to have.

Yes.

Claudia's just being nice to me now.

Never cynical.

Good. And I think we've identified two massive trends, global trends.

And one of them is the way that legacy media, its reputation is being shredded right now and it's losing its place of prominence significantly. And that's not just here.

And the other is just the consolidation of a lot of those media empires by the ultra wealthy and by the tech bros who want to control those levers of information and at the very least the pathway, because they can monetize it.

Yeah.

So it's something that we're not seeing here quite so ferociously, but I think it's on the way.

Another session with media I was at recently put on by, which is actually about the business media. And again the insight there was that broadcast is starting to, especially in New Zealand, are starting to fall away.

And narrowcast, which has been on the edges forever, there's more and more people actually reading publications with fewer than 10,000 circulation. But it explains the growth in business media in New Zealand at the moment and the success of that business media.

And you know, there's lots of little magazines and publications out there in New Zealand who have got really loyal audiences.

And so if your audience is that person, that or those people, then go there and leave the broadcast media to somebody's fallen out of a boat or been hit on the heap.

Exactly, exactly. And I think I heard someone say this.

I can't remember who it was most recently, but they were talking about consuming the news, which I like to use that term a lot, but it's like not going deep in your reading. Like I just look at the Herald, CNN and tvnz. But going wide in your reading?

I think so.

I liked that little tip. I think that's good for us as PR people.

Yeah.

Well, I start my day by reading probably 10 to 12 different sites, including some that are not business focused, that more on the left of spectrum than perhaps some people would expect the likes of the EMA to engage with. But it's just keeping across those perspectives. You've got to do that.

Not to call out a specific publication, but the bulletin from the spin off is a great little roundup of what's going on. It's got links from every site. Useful.

I'd happy to call out a publication, but I call out shit you should care about as being the great place on social media. And they have a newsletter where you find out what matters to people in their 30s and 20s.

No, I follow that one too. Yeah, that's a good one.

Do we have to now?

Well, you have to put it into the back of your head.

Yeah.

And then when it comes up you go, oh, actually I see that brat summer has faded and now we're into something else. And what, and what does that mean?

Not that they can see it, but we have an appropriate green.

I'm glad Fred's picked up the grumpy old man role at the time.

Excellent, excellent, excellent. Right, we've painted a good picture of sort of this community disruption that we've been talking about and what we need to be aware of.

So if you were talking to some, you know, a business leader, a board, what are some actions they need to take in this new world we're living in?

My great thing is always awareness. Just have if you can't do it yourself, find someone you trust to do it for you.

That's where a good comms person comes in or good PR advice or it may not have to be a PR advisor, it could just be someone in a small organization that maybe has an interest in those sorts of things. But you've got to be across it or have someone across it for you because you haven't got the headspace as a CEO sometimes to do that.

But just be aware as I think someone made the comment, the situational awareness, there's more than just your little narrow business focus in the world. So make sure You've got some kind of radar on.

I'd also recommend having a few key messages, draw statements, tools in your toolkit to pull out at those moments when you want to say, I can't say anything, but, you know, get back to me in half an hour or just something. Don't be caught off guard because that's when the foot goes in the mouth.

The good old media training. Buy some time.

Yep. Yes.

Yeah.

And I think going back to what you were talking about a while ago, Claudia, about the risk register, you know, if you're a board, if you're an executive team, you got that risk register. And you know, usually it's stuff on there that deals with operational things that could happen.

But I think if you actually whip out your risk register and have a look a lot of those things, if the worst case happens, it's going to affect your reputation as well. So why not? Yeah, why not put a couple of messages together? Why not put a little mini comms plan together? Who would you need to talk to?

Who would you need to talk to first, second, third? What are you going to say? How would you say. It just makes you feel a lot more in control when you have something like that.

Don't rule anything out in there either. I had a big company tell me, we did a media training thing and we said, oh, actually a power pylon might fall down.

And they went, that could never happen.

Yeah, low risk, you know, that was.

That was 10 years ago we did that one. And it did happen, though.

Yes.

So don't rule that stuff out.

Yeah, that's good.

Yeah.

Large businesses do this well in terms of having senior PR people, whether it's at the board level or exec level.

But again, we're dealing with 98% of New Zealand is a small business, maybe not for profits, and you don't really call the PR person in until the last minute when the White of Times has called you on the phone. And so I guess my point on that is have that good PR advisor alongside you as you go forward and as you're making business decisions just to be that.

What we call that critic and conscious of the organization.

Yeah, we have a couple clients where if things go wrong, the issue would be monstrous. It'd be huge. They're not regular retainer clients, but they invested a little upfront so that they had someone they could call. Call.

Have someone you can call who can help you manage your way through the situation, who can give you good advice and can be there in a moment's notice. That you already know and trust so you can build that relationship. It doesn't actually have to cost you anything in the long run if you.

Again, build it at the beginning.

Yeah.

So, yeah, don't think it's something that's going to be overly expensive and destroy the books for the year. It can be done pretty easily. Don't skip.

Okay, don't skip. But I think be willing to invest. Like we're sitting here talking about the reputation of your organization. Be willing to invest in that.

It's an asset. You would invest in an asset if you're talking about a building or plant and equipment or you'd have a regular maintenance schedule or whatever.

Whatever you would do there. But yeah, invest in your reputation. So put a little money.

Well, investing in maybe four or five hours of PR advice when you've got a hot button issue, it's going to be a lot cheaper than paying for four or five hours of legal advice.

That's right, absolutely.

Certainly a lot cheaper than losing 50% of your business or something drastic like that.

Investing it up front so you've actually got the plan there and then know that person's available when the shit hits the fan.

Yeah.

And I think a lot of small businesses are afraid to pick up the phone because they don't know what we do. And we have talked at length with each other about how PR needs to be explained better to people, PR ourselves. Yeah. To define what we do.

But once they understand, like we know that they get our services and what we provide and the de risking we can do within a situation and how we can fix things, don't be afraid to call somebody and just find out.

Yeah.

It's actually also, I was working with a friend who owns a small business and she had a problem with a staff member and she called me and said, I need you to look, please look at my messaging. What am I saying and how am I getting it out to everybody? And you know, did it grant us? Of course, because she's a friend.

But I realised that this is actually our skill is to be able to look at words on a page or things you're going to say and actually be able to assess the nuances that you need so that it goes de escalates or escalates, whatever it is you're trying to say. It's an unspoken school.

I don't think people realise how much PR people are better or as good as lawyers in making sure that the words lack the right way.

That employee situation is quite a common one for us.

We Have a legal team and a bunch of contractors and consultants to handle specifically personal grievances and all that kind of nasty stuff that goes on in the workplace, unfortunately. And our legal team have a brief in there or a note in there.

This is what you do or don't say if you get approached, because those employment issues regularly make newspapers, et cetera. And it's just part of our standard practices when we're advising those, particularly the smaller ones.

That's what you do or don't do in terms of media when you get stuck in one of these things.

Yeah, because we are cheaper than lawyers, generally.

Yeah, generally.

Are you undercharging, Stefan?

Well, we had a client not to be named that one of the founding directors wound up during a Christmas party in a bathroom that wasn't his gender doing bad things. And. And you know, there were clients in the room. The whole thing went very sideways, very quick.

And I said, you just need to apologize for your actions. And we've all been in this situation. They go, no, never do that. I didn't get hurt by apologizing, Never.

And you go, okay, it's me or the lawyers, because this will get very big. It is an absolute train wreck of a story that any journalist in this country is going to love. Like you need to show up and do the right thing.

And that's something we can do that lawyers won't, which has helped make it go away properly by being accountable.

Yeah.

I don't think it's just about the media, though. You know, the media is like the ambulance. You know, what we can do is de. Escalate it before it actually gets to the media because somebody's annoyed.

I mean, admittedly, social media these days means things can travel at the speed of light. But I do think we're advisors for a reason. We give good advice.

Yeah.

I think the other thing is people forget in terms of the investment, you know, a few thousand or so upfront a reputation can take years to rebuild.

Yes, that's right.

You ruin it with a couple of wrong things and suddenly it's impacting on many, many different areas of your business.

I was just looking online at a few things and just wanting to understand a little bit about how reputation and revenue sort of go hand in hand.

And PwC has done a good survey on this and also Accenture has done a good survey showing how revenue and reputation sort of ride the same elevator, but when you're reputation is dented, that how revenues will go down disproportionately. So it's Very. An interesting space to kind of look at that as well.

There was just one other thing when I was thinking about this topic was actually that it's now no longer just businesses that get called out for doing things. It's actually also PR companies and advertising agencies.

And it started in the UK where, especially in the environmental and sustainability areas, that if you. You aren't transparent about what you're doing or you pretend to be doing something that you aren't doing, they will call you out.

And there's a lot of advertising agencies now that have been put into the media and said, well, actually, you're not to be trusted and you're not a good ad agency. So there are vigilante groups out there doing what they think is the right thing to do. But everybody needs to be careful.

That's good. Okay, well, to wrap up today, we'll go around the table. Fred.

Ooh, put me on the spot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm putting you on the spot. What would be sort of like one takeaway from today's topic that you would.

If you were having a business leader sitting here in front of you, what would you say to them?

Don't underestimate the risk that's out there, the speed at which it can move, and take the advice of the people that try to help, especially if you've paid for it.

Yeah, there you go, Alan.

Not dissimilar to Fred. Just find that trusted advisor who's got that wider view.

And when they say this is a flash flag, it's a flag and believe it and trust in it and act accordingly.

Nice, Claudia.

Be human, I think is really important and to see beyond your four walls at what going on out there. The other guys have said all the best things and I'll give you my number if you want.

Excellent.

Maybe my takeaway is just, you know, and it's a good reminder to myself as well, is just keep on, you know, reading widely like we talked about before, and just really, you know, consum the news being on social media and if you don't love it. Yeah. Having that really wide perspective. So you can, as a PR advisor, be that critic and conscious of your organization. So that's important.

So we always end our crunch podcast. Crunch stands for crucial chats over lunch. So we always end with a lunch question.

So my question for you today is if tomorrow was your last lunch of your life, what would you eat?

This is my first.

Claudia, go ahead.

Don't worry. I've prepared. I bluff oysters, if they were available with buttered brown bread.

Oh, wow. Okay.

And a nice glass of chardonnay. And I'd eat it and savour it very slowly.

Excellent, Alan.

Well, I'm well known for lunching, so I'm gonna have two courses. Okay, so taglielini al trufo. So taglini with truffles. And then a great big hunk of steak with mushrooms, fries, and a good glass.

Nice.

Great. Fred.

Mine's gonna be simpler, which is just Grandma Russo's lasagna. My family's from Napoli. Like, you know, we're New York Italians. And that lasagna is a seminal part of my upbringing.

And just that, I mean, it's dense. You only need one cube, which will put £4 on you somehow. But it's amazing. It's amazing. It takes, like, three days just to make the sauce.

Oh, nice.

So when are you burning? During summer.

I made two. I have a good friend who's unwell, and he just needed something he could pull out of the freezer for the family.

So put two in their freezer this morning. So I got one in mine in my fridge for something.

All right, well, mine's along the Italian theme as well, but it's just a good New York pepperoni pizza. And probably the closest to it that I found in New Zealand is Sal's, so I'd have a.

I've had a couple slices of Sal's pizza with a really deep good red as well. Okay, well, thank you, you guys, for joining us today. It's been a great conversation. Thanks.

Thanks for joining us today for the Crunch Podcast, brought to you by New Zealand PR agency hmc. Make sure you hit the subscribe button so you don't miss our next episode. See you next.