Plea Deals, Murder Cases, and the Reality of Criminal Defense

Cape Fear Criminal Defense joins Whiskey and Wisdom to break down how criminal cases really work. Drawing from his experience as a public defender, prosecutor, and defense attorney, he explains plea deals, burden of proof, jury selection, murder cases, North Carolina’s death penalty, and the real-world pressures of defending clients when everything is on the line.

Chapter List

00:00 Welcome and guest intro

01:40 Allegedly and burden of proof

03:18 Penelope Project X tasting

06:05 Following a high-profile trial

08:36 Plea deals and sentencing reality

10:59 Death penalty in North Carolina

14:43 From prosecutor to defense attorney

18:53 Starting a private practice

21:37 Affording justice and public defenders

23:22 Law school background and trial training

25:09 Where he practices and conflict cases

26:59 Dismissed murder case and negotiations

30:54 Federal vs. state court differences

31:52 Federal jury duty and voir dire

33:12 Picking the right jurors

33:54 Courtroom characters

35:50 How to dress for court

40:05 Murder and violent caseload

44:01 Poverty, education, and crime

47:19 DA politics and turnover

49:14 Drug trends and fentanyl

53:32 Why defend the guilty

56:49 What success looks like

1:00:01 Testifying at trial

1:02:56 Career advice and burnout

1:04:44 Finding the firm

1:06:41 Socks and jury attention

1:08:20 Bourbon wrap-up

welcome back to the Whiskey and Wisdom Podcast.

2

I'm your constant co-host,

Chris Kellum, and I'm with

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Mike: Tyler.

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Y'all,

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Boys: as you know, he's the best

of the best, making the mess.

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And our guest today,

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Mike: Jason Ozzi, Cape

Gear Criminal Defense.

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Boys: Cool, cool.

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I love like when people reach out

and we can get some like fun dual

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sidedness and grow our mindset.

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So we've had a like, a DA on at

one point or an assistant da and

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now we get to interview somebody

from the other side, I guess.

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Mike: Yeah, and I've actually done

both and even before that was an

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assistant public defender, so.

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Other than judge, I've kind of served

every role in the criminal justice system.

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Boys: Oh wow.

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It was funny 'cause I was going through

Instagram and I saw the giveaway for your

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hat and I was like, I love the allegedly

hat and I've been wanting to get a,

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a criminal defense attorney on here.

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So I reached out right away.

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I was like, Hey, would you be interested?

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Yeah.

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'cause you seem cool enough that would

come onto a podcast and kind of talk

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about what you do and everything.

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So

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Mike: Absolutely.

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I was thrilled you know, started

following you guys and wasn't hyper

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aware, but like you guys have a very

high production quality video right

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outta the gate, so it was like intriguing

to see and certainly any invite to

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like kind of spread the word about

business is always a great opportunity.

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Yeah.

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But you know, I've been in the

community a long time and so

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I'm brought you guys some hats.

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Yeah.

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Thank you.

36

Thank you.

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I hope you guys enjoy 'em.

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And yeah, those have been a huge hit.

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It's kind of, it's just

a random thought I had.

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Boys: Yeah.

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Mike: And it's always like that your

best laid plans never really work out.

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Yeah.

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But it's the ones that kind

of just pop in your head.

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And people have been clamoring over

those, so we're grateful to bring 'em in.

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Boys: That's cool.

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So there's another podcast I listen to

the PBD podcast, Patrick Beck, David, and

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I don't know if they got in trouble or

if someone else got in trouble legally,

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but their big thing is once they like

make a claim, they're like allegedly.

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And so they make it really big.

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Or everyth, allegedly.

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Yeah, it's like allegedly.

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Mike: I mean, I think both sides use that

word probably more than any other one.

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Maybe the only other common word

would be guilty or not guilty.

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Boys: Yeah, true.

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That is such a hard question.

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Like guilty or not guilty?

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Yeah, because in my head, because

like, we'll get into this later,

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but I always laugh because it's

like, that's what you're proving.

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It's like not when they're not, they're

a bad guy or they did something wrong.

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Mm-hmm.

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Can you prove it?

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Mike: Yeah.

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And I think, you know, having been on

both sides, I was a special victims

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prosecutor for a long time, did vi

violent crime, mostly homicides when

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I was the chief assistant district

attorney in Whiteville Columbus County.

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Boys: Oh, wow.

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Mike: And I mean, the reality is

there's a very thin line between being

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the victim and being the defendant in

a lot of these cases, especially when

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you're dealing with violent crime.

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Yeah.

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Narcotics, little less you know, flip

side of things, but one of the favorite

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lines I like to give, which is a little

bit, you know, criminal defense, kind

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of slimy, but reality is just because

you did it doesn't mean you're guilty.

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Boys: Right.

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Mike: The state of North Carolina

has to prove beyond a reasonable

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doubt every single element of every

single crime that they've alleged.

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Boys: Yeah.

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Right.

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Mike: They can't always do that.

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Boys: True.

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Mm-hmm.

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Which I wanna follow up on that too.

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But before we get too far into

it, Chris, what are we, what are

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we sipping on with this Penelope?

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So, as y'all know, we like

Penelope on this podcast.

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Mm-hmm.

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I was wandering through

the Berga Liquor store.

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Gorgeous new spot.

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Really?

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Yeah.

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It's only like two years old,

newly built, kinda like the, the

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updated ones we have right here.

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Phenomenal

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Mike: store.

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Boys: Beautiful.

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I was surprised.

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I was like, oh, this is fancy looking

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Mike: as nice if not nicer than any

of the ones we have in Wilmington.

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Boys: Yeah.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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Which it threw me off 'cause

I expected it to look like

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the one that's in Rocky Point.

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Oh yeah.

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Like in the strip mall

and you're like sneezing.

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You've walked through

the whole thing already.

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But this is gorgeous.

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I was walking around looking and I was

like, oh, you have Penelope Project X.

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And apparently Pinder County did

their own barrel pick of a project X.

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Project X pieces are they actually

take unique cask Fi and then

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they do like a specialty finish.

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They do ola, sherry cask, a

PX sherry, or a cognac cask.

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And then they'll take their signature

for Blend and then they'll put it

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in there and let it rest and get

a little bit more flavor to it.

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You can always tell the Project X

because it's in that clean black bottle.

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And it's kind of fun checking 'em out.

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'cause if every county does a

different one, it's kinda like

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a totally different barrel pick.

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This will be the fifth

Project X one I've had.

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And they all taste drastically different,

even if they're labeled Sherry Cask or px.

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So this is delicious.

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Take sip.

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Really good.

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Take a sip, sip.

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And let's enjoy some some whiskey.

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Cheers.

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Filter.

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Cheers.

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Mike: Now you got a sip

because you did cheers.

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Boys: Oh, I'm sorry.

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Mike: It's bad luck not to.

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Mm-hmm.

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Boys: True.

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Ooh, that's good.

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That is interesting.

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Mm-hmm.

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There's a lot of, it's

not the typical shared

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Mike: cats.

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What Those moats you, you're tasting.

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I'm never good at that.

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I have to cheat and look it up.

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Boys: Oh yeah.

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I'm horrible.

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Mike: Leather tobacco bark.

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Boys: I should have brought

the sniffing kit in.

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I have car.

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You should, I mean, it's

definitely some spices.

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You can taste that Sherry

'cause it's a little bit mm-hmm.

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Like that little bit of

fruitiness on the back.

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But it's a nice, like

smooth coating for sure.

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It's got a

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Mike: good smooth mouth

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Boys: feel of that.

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Yes.

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You're on it.

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I mean, you guys know me.

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I love the Rio, which is definitely

a like spring, early summer.

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This to me is definitely Mm.

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We're gonna go September.

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I was gonna

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POD00114: say

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Boys: fall, early fall 'cause

you're, you're still kinda warm

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but not too hot flavor wise.

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And this is just a good, just

kind of like transitional drink.

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But Yeah.

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Now that we're done talking about some

whiskey, which we'll check in on, on

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the back end of the podcast, there's

something that I wanted to throw up since

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we were just talking about it before.

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Talking about the whiskey.

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Yeah.

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So that just because you did

doesn't mean you're guilty.

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I don't know how much you follow other.

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Like criminal trials going

on in the United States?

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Mike: Oh yeah.

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Boys: The one that I'm following

right now is Cory Richens in Utah.

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Mike: Tell me a little bit more about it.

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Boys: So this one is allegedly she

poisoned her husband with fentanyl.

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Mike: Yes, yes.

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Boys: So I've been following that.

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And when you listen to like the leadup

of it and the story that the prosecution

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gave during the opening statements.

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Yeah.

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I was like, oh, she 100% did this.

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Yep.

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But now that it's like started like going

through the trial, I'm like, she may have

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done it, but they have not proven it.

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Beyond a reasonable doubt yet, like

I do not feel like if I was on the

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jury, I wouldn't feel comfortable

convicting someone to life in prison

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with what they have shown so far.

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Mike: Yeah.

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And in many cases, they are forecasting

what they believe over, you know, the best

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version of what the investigation showed.

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Yeah, good point.

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So for instance, whether it's a

homicide or a drug case, having done

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this so long for 16 years early in

my career, seeing things on paper,

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you'd be like, oh man, how are we

gonna even challenge any of this?

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Yeah.

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This is gonna be very difficult without

perhaps maybe the exception when there's

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a confession or a really strong admission.

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Boys: Right.

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Mike: It's never, ever the

same in the courtroom that's

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contained in that investigatory

file, what we call discovery.

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Mm-hmm.

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So everything that that law enforcement.

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You know, does and collects, they

turn it over to the DA's office, they

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and turn have to turn it over to us.

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But what's collected two, three

years, you know, right now, and then

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you're fast forwarding to a trial

date two or three years down the road.

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Some of those witnesses ain't around.

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Yeah.

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People kind of forget what happened.

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Right.

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Law enforcement officers, there's been

a ton of turnover in the last decade,

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more so than I've seen in my career

where even they aren't around anymore.

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Maybe they've left the agency

or even more complicating, are

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no longer in law enforcement and

less inclined to maybe come back.

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So, you know, it's one of those

things that something like 98, 90

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9% of cases are resolved by plea.

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Boys: Oh, wow.

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Mike: And so the trial is the exception.

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And when you start talking about like,

notoriety TV case, obviously those

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are, you know, the top 1% of the 1%.

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Boys: So question.

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'cause you know, I listen to like the

littlest amount of criminal trial stuff.

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What's a plea?

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Mike: So if you're accused of a crime,

whether it's in federal court, state

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court, North Carolina specifically, there

will be an opportunity 99 times out of a

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hundred that the district attorney, the

prosecutor's, gonna offer you a deal.

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Right.

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They're not, they can't try every case.

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There is no way they could.

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So they kind of, they're supposed to kind

of be responsible for their caseload.

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So a lot of times you'll have a

narcotics prosecutor, a special

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victims prosecutor, property crimes

prosecutor, homicide prosecutor.

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They gotta move those cases.

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And the only way to move them

is go give some sort of deal.

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And sometimes those deals are

not very good, and sometimes

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they're very favorable.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so trying to give your client the best

estimate of what the worst case scenario

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would be, like, their worst day in court.

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Right.

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Boys: Yeah.

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Mike: Versus the plea versus

their best day in court.

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Right.

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Those are the kind of

like three spectrums.

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Boys: Yeah.

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Mike: Where do you see yourself?

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Where do you want to accomplish?

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Sometimes you have goals

that I can't accomplish.

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Oftentimes they say, I'll take a

dismissal, and I'm, I can't control that.

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Of course.

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And so it's like anything, a settlement,

you know, if it was a civil case and

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you're talking about money, there's

always gonna be like an insurance offer.

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Right.

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To try to resolve it without

the necessity of a trial.

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Boys: Okay.

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Mike: And so in a murder case, you know,

instead of facing life without parole,

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maybe you're off for 22, 25 years.

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If you're 23, 24, it's hard

to con like conceptualize.

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Yeah.

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Double right.

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What you've actually lived on this earth

and the finality of life without parole.

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If you're convicted of first degree

murder in North Carolina, there's

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only two punishments, death.

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And life without parole

and it means, oh wow.

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Life without parole.

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There is no parole in North

Carolina for those cases.

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Boys: Oh no.

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Mike: So if you are,

you know, 20 something,

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Boys: yeah,

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Mike: it's a lot to, that's a heavy

thing to think about and make a decision

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on, but that's what we do every day.

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I mean, make those hard decisions or try

to advise clients on those tough decisions

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that are almost impossible to make.

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Boys: Wait, death is an

option in North Carolina?

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Mike: Oh yeah.

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We're a capital state and while

we haven't actually executed

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anyone since I think 2006.

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Boys: Okay.

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there's probably people

just sitting on death row.

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Mike: There are a lot, and it costs a lot

to litigate because as I'm sure you guys

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are aware, I think most people are aware.

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North Carolina is one of the.

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Southern states that certainly

had a history of, and continues

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to have issues with racism.

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Boys: Yeah.

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Mike: And so racial justice act in, I

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that back to everyone's attention that,

you know, the death penalty is often

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applied to black members of our community.

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Mm-hmm.

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Historically in a greater proportion

than any other race or gender.

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It's usually male.

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Boys: Right.

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Mike: So it costs a lot to do those

appeals and rightfully so, because

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to take someone's life mm-hmm.

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The government doing it.

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Mm-hmm.

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They better make sure they're right.

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And we have seen statistically

that they often are not

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Boys: Right.

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So, sorry, that's

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Mike: heavy.

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Boys: Yeah.

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It's very heavy.

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But it makes sense and like it's.

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It's understandable why, like someone

like me who knock on wood, I've, I've

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stayed outta trouble, wouldn't think

that we still have the death penalty

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because they haven't done it in so long.

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And I think it makes, like you said,

there's a lot of cases where people are

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there and are they there on purpose?

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Are they correctly?

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So we can't just be killing

people left and right.

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POD00114: At

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Mike: least

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Boys: not.

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Mike: And in this area, the southeastern

North Carolina, we had up until very

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recently, two twin brothers that

were the elected district attorneys.

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One New Hanover Pender, Ben

David, his twin brother.

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My former boss, John David was

in Brunswick Blade in Columbus.

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And so that whole chunk of

Southeast or North Carolina very

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rarely pursued the death penalty.

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It was an infrequent

event and rightfully so.

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Boys: Yeah.

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Right.

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Mike: a lot of those cases are

the most horrendous, violent.

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Cases that you can think of above

and beyond your traditional Yeah.

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Right.

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Run of the mill murder if

you, you know, makes sense.

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For instance, the Southport shooting.

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Yes.

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Boys: Oh yeah.

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Mike: Everyone, you know, a mass shooting.

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A lot of folks often look at

situations like that and say

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that that person deserves it.

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Yeah.

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But as you said earlier, a lot

of these folks aren't bad people.

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They've made terrible choices.

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Boys: Mm-hmm.

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Mike: They were also almost

always dealt a bad hand.

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Yeah.

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Mental health issues.

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Substance abuse issues, you know, poverty.

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It's a bad combination.

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Yeah.

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Boys: On a much lower

end of that spectrum.

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That's what that's what I

tell my son all the time.

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I was like, you're not a bad kid.

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You just made a bad choice today.

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Absolutely.

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It's like same

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Mike: thing.

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I have that conversation

with clients all the time.

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I currently have, you know, a caseload

of probably 10 or 11 first degree

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murder cases, a few second degrees a.

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All types of trafficking cases, so

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Boys: Right.

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Mike: There's different levels of

punishment for all those things, but

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having the tough conversation with someone

that's accused of murder and explaining

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to them, you know, they could pursue this.

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'cause early on in the stage, they

make the state makes a decision.

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Boys: Yeah.

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Mike: And once that decision's made,

they call it designating it non-capital.

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Boys: Yeah.

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Mike: You start dealing with, well,

okay, now it's only life without parole.

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Right.

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Only

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Boys: it's like,

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Mike: and you're gonna have to

wait two, three, maybe four years.

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Yeah.

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To get a trial date, let alone the plea

offer that you inevitably won't like.

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Boys: Yes.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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So this slight pivot from, from that,

but I'm sure we'll circle back around.

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So you were a prosecutor,

now you're defense.

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Right.

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Mike: So I spent about 12

years doing public service.

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Oh, okay.

380

And there was a under president Bush

one enacted this loan forgiveness.

381

If you do public service for 10 years,

whether you're a doctor or a nurse,

382

a teacher, you can get your either

college or professional loans forgiven.

383

So after I did a little more

than the 10 years debt was

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wiped clean and that's a lot of

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Boys: money.

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Yeah.

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Mike: It was very, very, very helpful.

388

And I, I kind of thought, I

don't know if I can continue to

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do this for another 20 years.

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Boys: Yeah, right.

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Mike: especially the special

victim stuff, it's, it's,

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Boys: oh, that's heavy.

393

Mike: A lot heavier and emotionally

challenging to help women and children

394

get through, you know, tough things.

395

Boys: Right.

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Mike: And so.

397

Now I'm just I can take or

leave a case as much as I want.

398

Don't have to take a case.

399

Yeah.

400

And that's the beauty of, you know,

private practice where you don't, as

401

a public defender, as a prosecutor,

you don't choose your cases.

402

They're assigned to you by

either the court or your boss.

403

Boys: Yeah.

404

Mike: So my caseload kind of

fell into special victim's

405

cases with John and enjoyed it.

406

Very rewarding.

407

And then eventually mostly

homicide cases and learned a lot.

408

And that's kind of what I bring to

the table is, yeah, you know, a lot

409

of defense attorneys might start their

career two, three years trying cases.

410

Very, very good experience.

411

You can't buy that kind of experience.

412

Boys: Right?

413

Right.

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Mike: But I had nearly 12 and so

there's not much I haven't seen,

415

done, put together or torn apart.

416

And so that really gives you

that insight to, you know,

417

what's your worst day in court?

418

Because that's your starting point,

419

Boys: right?

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Mike: If we lose this case,

this is what's gonna happen.

421

Are you willing to run that risk?

422

If so, here's where I think

we've got some wiggle room.

423

'cause you know, a roll of the dice on

life without parole is a tough role.

424

Boys: Yeah.

425

Got that right.

426

Mike: And it, and it ain't

like they don't have a case.

427

Boys: Right?

428

Mike: Right.

429

We're not talking about you

know, the dwi I where the officer

430

maybe messed something up.

431

Boys: Mm-hmm.

432

Mike: It's a thorough investigation.

433

Boys: Yeah.

434

I'm like, if they're coming at

you with life without parole,

435

they're, they got some stuff.

436

Mike: Generally speaking,

they have a heavy hand.

437

And

438

Boys: how do you go from prosecuting

the same type of person to flipping over

439

and defending the same type of person?

440

Is that like a cognitive dissonance or

is it just like, Hey, you have a job to

441

do and they also deserve the, the right

of freedom or a lower case or whatever?

442

Mike: I think for me, I started my career

as a public defender and I would've never,

443

ever guessed that I would've enjoyed.

444

Prosecutorial work.

445

It was never something that dawned on me.

446

I, I tend to wanna

fight the uphill battle.

447

Boys: Mm-hmm.

448

Mike: The opportunity came available.

449

I was kind of picked by that office

to do what was very necessary.

450

At the time.

451

They had nobody that was willing, nobody

really wants to touch those cases.

452

They don't wanna investigate 'em,

they don't wanna deal with them.

453

And I don't, didn't mind, it was

rewarding and it was the most rewarding.

454

But to answer your question,

how can you do that?

455

It's really, people say it's

kind of, the last, I think.

456

Public figure that people would

think of that actually argued

457

both sides was Abraham Lincoln.

458

Boys: Oh, yeah.

459

Mike: He was notorious.

460

They've since changed that law.

461

You're not allowed to do that.

462

You can't represent both sides.

463

Right.

464

But it, it's, it's just a job

and, and it's a very, can be

465

lucrative, can be rewarding.

466

Boys: Mm-hmm.

467

Mike: But you're helping people

regardless of which side you're on.

468

Boys: Right.

469

Mike: In one of the most high stress,

difficult situations that any human

470

could ever find themselves in.

471

Right, sure.

472

Aside from, you know, the regular

breaking and entering the low level

473

stuff, maybe simple possession of drugs,

you're talking about some heavy stuff.

474

You know, shooting cases,

stabbings, murders sexual assaults.

475

I mean, there's a lot on the line.

476

Boys: How long have you

had your practice for?

477

Mike: So.

478

I opened up shop technically August of 24.

479

Probably didn't start taking

clients until like October.

480

Oh, okay.

481

Wanted to kind of get the infrastructure

482

Boys: exactly

483

Mike: solidified and, and you know,

from running a business that even

484

I, I said early, best laid plans

usually don't always work out.

485

And so I tried to create a kind of

structure that would allow for success

486

and eventually brought in staff and

487

Boys: Nice.

488

Yeah.

489

Mike: It was really scary to

have to pay someone's salary.

490

Boys: Right, exactly.

491

Like had a whole another level of mm-hmm.

492

Commitment and everything else.

493

So

494

Mike: way scarier than

being in the courtroom.

495

I mean, making sure that their payroll

is covered and that money's coming

496

in, and that they're gonna get paid.

497

I mean, it's one thing

if I don't get paid.

498

Boys: Right.

499

Mike: Huge respons

frustrating responsibility.

500

But for them it's like,

Hey, wait a second.

501

It's everything.

502

Boys: Yeah.

503

Mike: Right.

504

Boys: Which is not what like people see.

505

The things and they hear like, oh, well

I had to pay this much for a lawyer.

506

I gotta pay this much, or whatnot.

507

But all they think is that one person

and they're not thinking like, well,

508

the lawyer still has to pay hr.

509

They gotta pay the paralegal,

they gotta do the research.

510

Like you're doing so much work

on the back end to try and get

511

them that favorable situation.

512

Mike: And one of the things I try to

do, and on my website, I made very

513

clear that I will work with folks.

514

I'm very flexible.

515

Now it's always to an extent.

516

Boys: Mm-hmm.

517

Mike: If your case is set out inevitably

years, we can work on something.

518

But if you hire me at the last minute, I

can't just show up on hopes and dreams.

519

Boys: Yes.

520

Mike: The biggest kind of, I guess,

parallel that I would use, especially for.

521

Lawyers.

522

Boys: Mm-hmm.

523

Mike: Is, it's similar to, you know,

paying a famous artist for their work.

524

Right.

525

Okay.

526

There's that famous kind of story where

like Van Gogh or somebody drew a little

527

thing on a napkin, hands it to someone.

528

He's like, that'll be $2,000.

529

They're like, it took you two minutes.

530

He said, no, it took me 15

years to be able to do that.

531

Boys: Interesting.

532

Mike: And so you're

paying for the experience.

533

I mean, and I think a lot of times

people think that the higher the

534

price, the better the quality

could be, but more often than

535

not, there's some middle ground.

536

And I think that there's a lot of

good lawyers in this community.

537

There's few that have the experience

that I have or you know, there's

538

probably a handful in this community

that can say that they've worked on

539

both sides to the extent that I have.

540

And, you know, it does

cost a lot of money.

541

I had a attorney friend ages

ago, he had a tattoo of Lady

542

Justice on his arm, and it was.

543

A little distasteful, but it had a sash

around her chest, and on that sash it

544

said, how much justice can you afford?

545

Boys: True.

546

Yeah.

547

Unfortunately,

548

Mike: it is an unfortunate

part of our society because

549

no one really thinks about it.

550

When you go to the doctor, you

either have insurance or you don't.

551

Boys: Yes, right.

552

Mike: But they won't turn you away.

553

Mm-hmm.

554

If you go to the hospital, they

can't not give you medical treatment.

555

That's not the same in our

criminal justice system.

556

And it wasn't that long ago that you

did not necessarily have the right to

557

an attorney if you couldn't afford one.

558

That Right.

559

That was in the sixties and seventies.

560

And before that, if you were

charged of a crime, you weren't

561

given a public defender.

562

That is a new concept that was

kind of interpreted that how could

563

we possibly say, you have the

right to an attorney if you're.

564

Boys: Can't afford

565

Mike: one, what we call indigent poor.

566

Yeah.

567

Can't afford one.

568

And, and, and it's so complicated.

569

How could you defend yourself if

you didn't have that kind of money?

570

So,

571

Boys: right.

572

Mike: The advent of the Public Defender's

office is a huge help to the system

573

in, in and of itself because it helps

move cases along the tracks, but

574

also gives folks that don't have the

ability to afford an attorney have

575

high quality trained professional

legal services at their you know,

576

I can't reiterate, not having that

opportunity is so important because

577

going it alone is probably for

most people, like unimaginable.

578

Yeah.

579

Boys: Right.

580

That's wild.

581

Where was I going with my

next question with that?

582

I don't, you have one, but I'm,

I'm gonna ask a silly question.

583

Yeah.

584

So I'm a,

585

Mike: I like silly

586

Boys: questions, heavy assumption.

587

You went to NC State?

588

Mike: I did.

589

Hence the most people wouldn't

wear this unless they went there

590

or their parents went there.

591

Yes.

592

I don't root for them, but out of choice.

593

Boys: Okay.

594

So is that where you did your undergrad?

595

Undergrad?

596

Where'd you go to

597

Mike: Campbell.

598

Boys: Oh, nice.

599

Mike: Yeah.

600

At that time we had not

yet moved to Raleigh.

601

They were in Bowie's Creek.

602

Boys: Mm-hmm.

603

Oh, I know where Bowie's Creek is.

604

Mike: and my third year we moved

to Raleigh and it really gave that,

605

that university was known for being,

you know, good trial attorneys.

606

Yeah.

607

Boys: Mm-hmm.

608

Mike: It elevated their

exposure immensely.

609

Now they are the closest to the capitol.

610

So you can work with the Court of

Appeals, the Supreme Court work in

611

that Raleigh justice system, and it

gives people hands-on experience that,

612

you know, none of the other schools

really have even Chapel Hill and Duke.

613

As close as now Campbell,

they're literally like two

614

blocks from the capitol.

615

Boys: Oh no, I didn't

know it was that close.

616

I didn't realize that either.

617

Yeah.

618

Wow.

619

That is, that's pretty sick.

620

I've had quite a few of my clients

like went to Campbell for law school.

621

Mm-hmm.

622

And I know Campbell for law and pharmacy.

623

Mike: Mm-hmm.

624

Boys: and that's, it's a great thing

when a school that a lot of people

625

would consider like small, is able to do

that much and has like a big footprint,

626

Mike: huge footprint in

North Carolina for sure.

627

I think almost all of my colleagues,

I would say 80% graduates of Campbell.

628

Boys: Yeah.

629

Mike: And especially in

the trial attorney realm.

630

You know, you've got folks that do

insurance, defense or other types of

631

real estate or corporate litigation.

632

No, sure.

633

Boys: Right.

634

Mike: But the ones that are, you

see in the courtrooms or walking

635

with the briefcases, those are.

636

For the most part, Campbell grads.

637

Boys: Wow.

638

Nice.

639

I remember the question I was gonna

ask you is a simple question too.

640

Do you practice in New Hanover

County or Brunswick County?

641

Mike: I actually have

cases all over the state.

642

I've had I've had a murder

in Durham that got dismissed.

643

I've got one in Wake pending.

644

I've got one in Oslow.

645

I have one in Sampson.

646

I have one in Wilson.

647

Boys: Oh, wow.

648

Mike: I have one in Pender, three or

four in New Hanover, probably five or

649

six in Brunswick, Columbus, Bladen area.

650

Oh, wow.

651

And so I have a lot of work in that area.

652

They opened a public defender's

office very recently.

653

Mm-hmm.

654

Like within the last two years.

655

Boys: Okay.

656

Mike: And as a result, a lot of

the people who used to be on the,

657

what, what's called the loop.

658

Public defender list they'd volunteer

to help with court appointed work.

659

Boys: Oh, okay.

660

Mike: There are no,

there's no attorneys left.

661

And so they all now work at

the public defender's office,

662

which is a good thing, right?

663

Yeah.

664

But then there's conflict cases.

665

For instance, they can't represent

multiple defendants in the same case.

666

So if there's co-defendants Gotcha.

667

Interesting.

668

They've inherently got

a conflict of interest.

669

'cause they might point

their fingers at each other.

670

More often than not they will.

671

And so they farm those out.

672

And because I've worked down there for

so long and the now Chief Public Defender

673

was a former colleague of mine, I'm happy

to volunteer and take a lot of that.

674

And because there's no one else,

I've got quite a big caseload of

675

court appointed work down there

on top of most murder cases.

676

Can't afford an attorney.

677

So almost for, for my caseload,

all of those are court appointed.

678

But that's through Raleigh Durham area.

679

They have, there's a specific office that.

680

Handles the entire state's

first degree murder cases.

681

So if you're charged with first

degree, it goes first to the

682

Capitol Defender's office and then

they have a, a list all across the

683

state of people willing to do it.

684

Boys: Oh, wow.

685

You said you had a murder

case that got dismissed.

686

Is that, that probably

doesn't happen often, right?

687

Mike: No, it was very, very rewarding.

688

It was the very first one out

of into my private practice.

689

Boys: Oh, wow.

690

Mike: And so it was the first one I

got, it was the first one, kind of,

691

it was an older case that I inherited,

so it had a trial date coming up.

692

And I'll tell you what,

Durham is a different animal.

693

Oh, really?

694

Not surprised.

695

I mean, ain't no snitches in Durham.

696

I mean, there were probably 20

people that saw what happened and

697

all of said, I ain't see nothing.

698

And see, you know, normally eventually

someone comes forward, not a soul.

699

Boys: No.

700

Wow.

701

Mike: And so literally they had

no choice but to dismiss it.

702

And it was a still a fight.

703

I mean, my client was in

custody for almost four years,

704

waiting for his trial date Now.

705

Also in federal custody on a separate

charge, but neither here nor there.

706

Unrelated to the homicide.

707

Yeah.

708

But you know, he, that dismissal

didn't necessarily spring him free.

709

He still had some time

left on his federal case.

710

Boys: Yeah.

711

Mike: But we walked out with

that dismissal and that is

712

hanging on my wall in the office.

713

I'm sure his first degree murder.

714

And not many attorneys

could say they've done that.

715

Now there's criminal defense attorneys

out there that you know, might say there's

716

a little asterisk next to that win.

717

You didn't hear not guilty.

718

I'll take a dismissal over not guilty.

719

I was gonna say it's

720

Boys: the same.

721

Mike: That's before same outcome

before you roll that dice.

722

Boys: Yep.

723

Exactly.

724

So question, once it's been established

that they're like, Hey, this is first

725

degree while you're there, are you able

to, to try and fight to get it lower?

726

Mike: Sure.

727

And because first degree has only

two punishments, and if they're not

728

proceeding, capital punishment, which

is the rarity, so they're proceeding.

729

Life without parole, there's

always room for negotiation.

730

Boys: Okay.

731

Mike: So the first thing you'd start

with was second degree and you'd

732

work your way down depending on the

facts, maybe voluntarily or voluntary,

733

involuntary, all the way down to,

you know, some sort of assault.

734

Obviously that's gonna be very uncommon.

735

Right.

736

Given the gravity of the accusation.

737

Mm-hmm.

738

But most of those are resolved with

a second degree plea because if

739

you plead to the first, there is

only but one sentence you can give.

740

Okay.

741

So there's no incentive to do that.

742

Boys: Gotcha.

743

Mike: So usually second, and it's

a term a year is usually, you

744

know, if you had no record, you'd

be looking at 20 to 25 years.

745

Boys: Geez.

746

Mike: If you had accumulated

a long history, you might be

747

looking at 40 to 60 years.

748

Some of my clients in their forties

and fifties might look at that and

749

say, I might as well take it to trial.

750

Yeah.

751

Life without parole is the same to me.

752

Boys: Right.

753

That, and that's the thing, like you were

saying, like a 22-year-old is like, ah,

754

you can't comprehend what life looks like.

755

Mike: And by the way, these people

aren't making good decisions.

756

Boys: Yeah.

757

Mike: No, no, no.

758

That's not in their for It's

759

Boys: the judge making that decision.

760

Mike: No, but like the

reason they're there.

761

Boys: Oh, okay.

762

Mike: Right.

763

They don't make good

decisions through life.

764

So now you're asking them to

make a very hard decision.

765

Boys: Exactly.

766

Mike: And if the two options are,

'cause this is more often than

767

not, the fight I'm in, and I've

got one right now in Pender County.

768

First degree murder, attempted

murder, and a bunch of unrelated

769

cases while he was in jail.

770

We are very close to a trial date.

771

Boys: Yeah.

772

Mike: Which also brings together

more pressing plea negotiations.

773

Boys: Mm-hmm.

774

Mike: and we're in the range of getting

a 20 to 25 year deal on the table.

775

And my client has insisted that

he'd rather, you know, it's all

776

the same to him and it's not.

777

Boys: Mm-hmm.

778

Mike: It's not the same.

779

No.

780

And

781

Boys: you're like,

782

Mike: it's hard.

783

That's, those are hard conversations.

784

Yes.

785

When there's a built in

distrust of the system, hence.

786

Boys: Sure.

787

Yeah.

788

Mike: Like the distrust of me.

789

Yeah.

790

When you're not hiring an attorney,

it's been appointed, you're part of

791

the system, you're out to get me.

792

I mean, these folks are, for the

most part, mentally ill, poverty

793

stricken, throw on top of that.

794

Like inherently bad decision makers.

795

Boys: Yeah.

796

Yeah.

797

If it was a federal case, are

the prosecutors the same North

798

Carolina prosecutors or they'd

bring different people in for that

799

Mike: completely separate

entity and jurisdiction.

800

So in federal, and I'm sworn, but

don't practice in federal court,

801

you've got what's called instead of an

assistant district attorney or district

802

attorney, you'll have what's called

an assistant United States attorney.

803

So an A USA.

804

Okay.

805

Yeah.

806

And those are the prosecutors.

807

And then you've got same thing, defense

attorneys, public defenders mm-hmm.

808

In that system as well.

809

Okay.

810

And generally speaking, the

stakes are much higher because.

811

Think about the power

and wealth of the state.

812

Boys: Yes.

813

Right.

814

Mike: The power and wealth of the

federal government, you know, and they

815

don't bring cases that they might lose.

816

Boys: Right.

817

Mike: The exception to that rule

is those kind of notoriety ones,

818

but they still got something.

819

Boys: Right.

820

Mike: It ain't, you know,

gonna be a not guilty.

821

Boys: Yeah.

822

I think it was like six, five or

six years ago I got called for jury

823

duty and I showed up and then like

something just felt weird about it.

824

I was like, this doesn't seem like

jury duty, like typical people have.

825

And then I get in there and they're

like, this is for a federal case.

826

And I was like, oh crap,

I didn't get chosen.

827

But but it was pretty, because if you

get a federal jury of duty, like your

828

time between being called is longer.

829

Longer, yeah.

830

'cause those cases, cases are longer.

831

Right.

832

Mike: Typically, they, yes and no.

833

I mean, it just depends on the

case, but for the most part.

834

There's more to it.

835

So there's just gonna be a lot

more, I think the best way to

836

describe, it's like it's more formal.

837

Boys: Yeah.

838

Mike: So there's district court, which

is kind of like your misdemeanor.

839

Yeah.

840

A lot less formal superior court

where your, all your felonies are

841

resolved a little bit more formal.

842

Right.

843

Federal court, very formal

rules apply very strictly.

844

Boys: Yeah.

845

Mike: And you know, you wouldn't

wanna fool around if you didn't

846

know what you were doing there.

847

Boys: It was neat though, 'cause

I got to sit in like on all

848

the voir dire while they were

choosing the jury and everything.

849

So I thought that was really neat.

850

Like watching 'em go back and

forth and everything like that.

851

And like the people that they

did choose and didn't choose.

852

It was kind of interesting to me.

853

'cause there's one guy who got

up there, I'm like, oh, they're

854

gonna send this guy home.

855

And they chose him and I was like, whoa.

856

Weird.

857

So

858

Mike: often depends on the case.

859

I mean,

860

Boys: yeah,

861

Mike: sometimes you'd think you

wouldn't want lawyers on there,

862

especially a criminal defense attorney.

863

Right.

864

But on the other hand, it

might be very helpful to have.

865

Someone with that.

866

For instance, in a financial case,

if there's a CPA called to the box,

867

Boys: oh yeah,

868

Mike: that's gonna be super

helpful because now I can glance

869

over some of the technicalities.

870

Boys: Yeah.

871

Mike: As long as I can, you know, focus

my presentation of evidence to the

872

technicalities, to that one juror, make

sure that that's thorough for that person.

873

Right.

874

'cause now they get to have

those conversations and explain

875

any confusion amongst the

jurors if they're deliberating.

876

And so depending on the nature of

the case, you might pick different

877

jurors for different reasons.

878

Got

879

Boys: you.

880

Oh, that's neat.

881

Yeah.

882

The one, going back to criminals

don't typically make good decisions.

883

This, the one guy, the only reason why it

turned into a federal case is because it

884

was a, it was a child trafficking case.

885

And one time out of like the

years he was doing it, he took

886

the trial to South Carolina.

887

And then the state board,

then federal, geez.

888

And I was like, oh, interesting.

889

Really stupid.

890

Like you're doing something stupid anyway.

891

And you made it even more

stupid, like congratulations.

892

Mm-hmm.

893

But yeah, the one guy who got chose super

out in Brunswick County, so this guy was

894

super like backwards, Brunswick County.

895

And he got up there and they're

like, is there any reason why

896

you wouldn't make it to court?

897

And he was like, if my mama tell me

I can't come, I can't come to court.

898

And they're like, no sir, if the

judge tells you not to come to

899

court, you don't come to court.

900

If the judge tells you to come

to court, you come to court.

901

And he was like, she ain't my mama.

902

And I was like, oh no,

what is happening here?

903

Mike: Speaking of some funny iter, like

iterations of that, a long, long, long

904

time ago, early in my career there, I

was in Brunswick District where a guy

905

was, you know, addressing the judge.

906

Mm-hmm.

907

The judge was asking, you

know, where's your lawyer?

908

All these, you know, typical stuff.

909

And the guy was dressed in a

Bud Light t-shirt and jeans.

910

And the judge kind of looked at me,

he was like, sir, looking at the

911

docket and you're charged with DWI.

912

Did you think that that t-shirt violation

was a good idea to wear to court today?

913

And without missing a beat,

this man looked at that judge

914

said, make shit thirsty, donut.

915

Boys: Oh no.

916

Oh,

917

Mike: guilty.

918

I mean, you're asking for trouble.

919

I mean, I mean he had a good sense

of humor and probably caught himself,

920

but yeah, that, that was a fine line.

921

Boys: Yeah.

922

Mike: Stuff like that

happens all the time.

923

The amount of like, kind of funny

stories that happen in those stressful

924

arenas are, I could write a book.

925

Boys: It makes me laugh too.

926

'cause like, you know, I'm

from here, born and raised.

927

I've gotten like, I think one ticket

where I had to show up in court and I

928

go to Brunswick County and you know,

I did what I was my mom told me to do.

929

I found the one tie and.

930

Button up I had and I showed up and like

I'm waiting in line with like 200 people.

931

'cause they're just

like, what's your case?

932

What's your case?

933

Cool, cool.

934

Nope.

935

Show up, whatever.

936

And I'm like, why am I the only

like one of 15 people with a tie on?

937

Everyone else is in here just like,

this is my outfit that I wore today.

938

Mike: It makes a difference, right?

939

Yeah.

940

Like no matter what line of business

you're in, dressing well for the

941

occasion can make the difference

between, you know, different outcomes.

942

I did a post on my social media months

ago that it could make the difference

943

between, you know, a good or a bad plea or

you know, the judge giving you the benefit

944

of the doubt one day and not, there is so

much that can be gained by putting on, and

945

it doesn't have to be a fancy suit, right?

946

It doesn't have to be a

$10,000 Gucci or AMO suit.

947

It could be the best outfit you have.

948

And if that is.

949

You know, happens to be jeans and a,

some sort of beat up polo, iron it.

950

Boys: Yeah.

951

Right.

952

Mike: Make sure your collar's down.

953

If you have a tie, tie it.

954

Yeah.

955

And tuck in your shirt.

956

That unfortunately might

be your best outfit.

957

It looks a heck of a lot

better than, you know, untuck.

958

No.

959

Tie your shirts unbuttoned

and all wrinkled,

960

Boys: right?

961

Mike: Yeah.

962

It can make the difference between

a good outcome and a really bad one.

963

Boys: They see that you're trying, like

they can tell the difference between

964

like if I showed up in like a t-shirt and

jeans or like untucked and like, okay.

965

Versus even putting on a tie with

a polo, which most of us are gonna

966

be like, that looks horrible.

967

But from a outsider's perspective,

I'm like, oh, you at least tried,

968

like you weren't able to get a button

up, but you at least had a polo that

969

you had, like you were trying to

look Yeah, as dressed as possible.

970

They're showing up that it's.

971

That it looks like it's important to you.

972

Yes.

973

I'm sure it makes a difference.

974

Mike: That's the biggest difference.

975

And I, it always reminds me of this

story, one of the judges in New

976

Hanover age, this is ages and ages

ago, it was similar traffic court,

977

so everyone's kind of queued up.

978

Mm-hmm.

979

Yeah.

980

And big crowd.

981

And one kid had to be either like

early college or late high school.

982

I mean, the, the 18, 19-year-old

had a full tux on full tux.

983

And the judge was like, come up here, sir.

984

I thought he was gonna ridicule him.

985

He goes, I'm assuming sir, that

that's the nicest outfit you had.

986

And I'm gonna thank you

for taking this seriously.

987

You're a little overdressed for the

occasion, but I assume that you're doing

988

this because this is your best outfit.

989

And the kid kind of like nodded

his head and he, you know, had

990

everybody in the crowd like, take

notice and then encouraged the da.

991

Mm-hmm.

992

Why don't we help this

young man get outta here?

993

Right?

994

Yeah.

995

Like the DA doesn't have to do it, but.

996

Boys: Right.

997

Mike: That, that brings a

little good, good luck your way.

998

And so, you know, again, you don't

have to have a $10,000 suit or a

999

tuxedo on, but whatever your nicest

outfit is, I call 'em church clothes.

00:39:03,132 --> 00:39:03,462

Boys: Yes.

00:39:03,462 --> 00:39:03,522

Mike: Yeah.

00:39:03,552 --> 00:39:07,062

I tell my clients, put on your church

clothes if you don't know what that means.

00:39:07,782 --> 00:39:09,102

The nicest fit you got.

00:39:09,102 --> 00:39:09,342

Boys: Yeah.

00:39:09,762 --> 00:39:09,942

Yeah.

00:39:10,002 --> 00:39:13,122

Is that the same, like, do you

say church clothes, like up north?

00:39:13,392 --> 00:39:13,782

Mike: Mm-hmm.

00:39:14,112 --> 00:39:16,787

I grew up up north and that's not

say, but I've been down here a long

00:39:16,787 --> 00:39:16,867

Boys: time.

00:39:17,107 --> 00:39:20,622

That's what, well, 'cause as soon as

I was thinking that, I was like, well

00:39:20,622 --> 00:39:22,062

you're, you're putting on your best.

00:39:22,242 --> 00:39:23,802

And in my head I'm like,

you're Sunday's best.

00:39:23,807 --> 00:39:23,947

Mm-hmm.

00:39:24,032 --> 00:39:28,542

That's, but I know that like up

north, like they have different

00:39:28,542 --> 00:39:31,122

experience, but if you said it's

different sayings, different

00:39:31,122 --> 00:39:32,832

religion, someone's are gonna like,

00:39:32,837 --> 00:39:34,332

Mike: but if you said church

clothes up north Yeah.

00:39:34,332 --> 00:39:34,992

They would know.

00:39:35,052 --> 00:39:36,102

Everybody knows what that means.

00:39:36,102 --> 00:39:36,192

Right.

00:39:36,252 --> 00:39:36,282

Okay.

00:39:36,282 --> 00:39:38,532

It's a little bit of a,

you know, southernism.

00:39:38,592 --> 00:39:38,772

Boys: Yeah.

00:39:38,922 --> 00:39:40,662

Mike: But everybody knows

what church clothes are.

00:39:40,842 --> 00:39:41,262

Nice.

00:39:41,292 --> 00:39:41,772

You wanna look

00:39:41,772 --> 00:39:42,132

Boys: nice

00:39:42,132 --> 00:39:42,342

Mike: right.

00:39:42,402 --> 00:39:45,792

In church, as you should

in court, whether it's.

00:39:46,557 --> 00:39:51,017

A traffic ticket or DWI or you

know, something far more heavy.

00:39:51,677 --> 00:39:56,147

It makes a difference and people take

you more seriously, not necessarily

00:39:56,147 --> 00:40:00,647

the quality of your clothes, but the

quality of your outfit that you, you

00:40:00,647 --> 00:40:03,107

know, are groomed, your hair's combed.

00:40:03,112 --> 00:40:03,342

Yeah,

00:40:03,347 --> 00:40:03,767

Boys: yeah.

00:40:03,797 --> 00:40:04,637

Mike: Things like that.

00:40:04,847 --> 00:40:05,777

Boys: You're putting in the effort.

00:40:05,927 --> 00:40:08,177

I know we talked a lot about like

murder cases on here, but what's

00:40:08,177 --> 00:40:09,887

your typical case that you have?

00:40:09,887 --> 00:40:11,387

I can't imagine it's mostly murder, right?

00:40:11,402 --> 00:40:12,197

Or, or is it?

00:40:12,557 --> 00:40:17,207

Mike: Well, volume wise, no, but I've

got far more murders than probably any

00:40:17,207 --> 00:40:22,322

private attorney has because, you know,

I've been doing it 16 years in Wilmington.

00:40:22,327 --> 00:40:22,422

Yeah.

00:40:22,422 --> 00:40:22,577

Oh yeah.

00:40:22,627 --> 00:40:26,287

This is where I started my, after

graduating Campbell in Raleigh.

00:40:26,287 --> 00:40:27,577

I came to Wilmington and

00:40:27,637 --> 00:40:27,937

Boys: Oh wow.

00:40:27,967 --> 00:40:29,047

Mike: I've been here ever since.

00:40:29,047 --> 00:40:34,297

And so it started to grow into like

the southern part and then north.

00:40:35,542 --> 00:40:38,632

Having a caseload of 10 or

11 murders is far too many.

00:40:38,872 --> 00:40:39,322

But

00:40:39,352 --> 00:40:39,952

Boys: single lie,

00:40:40,402 --> 00:40:44,482

Mike: since I was here early in my career,

I've seen the guys and the women who

00:40:44,482 --> 00:40:50,612

handled those cases disappear, either from

retirement moving their career along, or

00:40:50,612 --> 00:40:56,132

just quite frankly being too, you know,

whatever their reason is, they've decided

00:40:56,132 --> 00:40:58,052

that they don't want to do those anymore.

00:40:58,082 --> 00:40:58,172

Mm-hmm.

00:40:58,682 --> 00:41:01,652

And the quality of the

attorney has dipped.

00:41:02,222 --> 00:41:04,232

It's a lot of work to work a murder case.

00:41:04,232 --> 00:41:04,292

Yeah.

00:41:04,292 --> 00:41:05,702

It takes years.

00:41:06,092 --> 00:41:09,092

I'm telling four or five

years, probably minimum.

00:41:09,332 --> 00:41:09,542

Wow.

00:41:09,542 --> 00:41:13,832

Before you get to trial in most places,

new Hanover's, kind of the exception.

00:41:14,322 --> 00:41:16,332

I would say two to three years on average.

00:41:16,662 --> 00:41:19,992

But I mean, and they're sitting in jail.

00:41:20,082 --> 00:41:20,562

Boys: Right.

00:41:20,622 --> 00:41:21,702

Mike: You know, banging.

00:41:22,452 --> 00:41:23,712

I want more updates.

00:41:23,712 --> 00:41:25,512

I, there's nothing to update you, man.

00:41:25,602 --> 00:41:26,062

Boys: Yeah, yeah.

00:41:26,262 --> 00:41:27,492

Mike: They got their case.

00:41:27,912 --> 00:41:29,502

You're waiting for trial or a.

00:41:30,447 --> 00:41:35,817

And so to answer your question, that

is a big part of my caseload, but

00:41:36,537 --> 00:41:41,487

violent crime and drug trafficking

is probably the more volume.

00:41:42,087 --> 00:41:48,477

And it took about six or seven

months from opening my door to

00:41:48,507 --> 00:41:52,017

having like a huge retained caseload.

00:41:52,257 --> 00:41:52,407

Boys: Right?

00:41:52,497 --> 00:41:55,647

Mike: And so now I'm like kind of

on the fence about how much public

00:41:55,647 --> 00:41:58,167

service I want to continue to

do because I do get paid for it.

00:41:58,167 --> 00:42:01,677

Yeah, I mean it's very minimal

hourly rate, so it's not, keeps

00:42:01,827 --> 00:42:05,517

the lights on, but it's also very

enjoyable to give back and to continue

00:42:05,517 --> 00:42:06,537

to give back to the community.

00:42:06,537 --> 00:42:11,097

And some of the cases, you know, I

don't submit fee apps in because maybe

00:42:11,097 --> 00:42:12,117

two or three hours worth of work.

00:42:12,117 --> 00:42:16,977

It's not worth doing it and helping

the community and the people that need

00:42:16,977 --> 00:42:18,867

it the most is, is enjoyable still.

00:42:18,927 --> 00:42:21,837

But it also didn't really

think it would happen.

00:42:21,837 --> 00:42:24,627

But most of my Pender County cases.

00:42:25,437 --> 00:42:29,367

I had an inmate client there that was

appointed, told everybody in that jail

00:42:29,367 --> 00:42:30,987

how good they and how much they loved me.

00:42:31,407 --> 00:42:35,457

Within like a month, I had the entire

female population hire me, which Oh wow.

00:42:35,457 --> 00:42:36,207

Is only like six.

00:42:36,207 --> 00:42:42,297

But it's it was very rewarding to hear

that commentary get back to me and then

00:42:42,477 --> 00:42:45,807

show up in the form of, you know, money

00:42:45,987 --> 00:42:46,287

Boys: Yeah.

00:42:46,377 --> 00:42:47,667

Mike: And trust.

00:42:47,847 --> 00:42:47,997

Right.

00:42:47,997 --> 00:42:50,127

Because those two things, you

know, the money is nice, but

00:42:50,127 --> 00:42:51,687

like, obviously they trust me.

00:42:51,867 --> 00:42:52,167

Boys: Yeah.

00:42:52,302 --> 00:42:56,382

Mike: to do a good job from, you

know, someone that they probably

00:42:56,382 --> 00:42:59,802

shouldn't trust, but you know,

they, they get word of mouth quick.

00:42:59,802 --> 00:43:04,172

So on the flip side, when I was a public

defender, if you if you had a bad day

00:43:04,172 --> 00:43:08,432

in court, man, all your clients at

the jail, man, I heard you screwed up.

00:43:08,432 --> 00:43:09,632

I heard you're the worst lawyer

00:43:09,632 --> 00:43:09,872

Boys: you.

00:43:10,517 --> 00:43:10,787

Oh

00:43:10,937 --> 00:43:11,177

Mike: gosh.

00:43:11,207 --> 00:43:13,727

Well, I bet that guy didn't

tell you how guilty he was.

00:43:13,817 --> 00:43:13,907

Right?

00:43:13,907 --> 00:43:13,967

Of

00:43:14,962 --> 00:43:15,317

Boys: course he did.

00:43:15,317 --> 00:43:15,767

Exactly.

00:43:15,977 --> 00:43:20,297

He wasn't like, yeah, well, I

did leave a full hand print right

00:43:20,297 --> 00:43:24,557

next to the body and I spit in

their face like, we left too many

00:43:24,557 --> 00:43:24,707

Mike: things.

00:43:24,707 --> 00:43:28,307

I've got a violent crime case right

now where literally I've had it

00:43:28,307 --> 00:43:30,707

since I think August of last year.

00:43:30,737 --> 00:43:30,827

Mm-hmm.

00:43:31,217 --> 00:43:34,067

Have the discovery probably

two or three months ago.

00:43:34,067 --> 00:43:37,217

And the client's, you

know, just complaining.

00:43:37,217 --> 00:43:39,737

His family calls 10 times a

day, you know, what's an update?

00:43:41,237 --> 00:43:43,517

He's on video, committing a shooting.

00:43:43,877 --> 00:43:48,157

Oh, they've got him running around

the house with an ak you know, style

00:43:48,157 --> 00:43:52,657

gun, trying to hide it in some bushes,

which they found, and, you know, three

00:43:52,657 --> 00:43:54,727

witnesses that saw him do it, sir.

00:43:55,417 --> 00:43:56,167

Boys: Oh no,

00:43:56,167 --> 00:43:56,767

Mike: just calm down.

00:43:56,857 --> 00:43:59,047

There's nothing that's

gonna speed this up.

00:43:59,047 --> 00:43:59,797

That's gonna help you.

00:43:59,857 --> 00:44:00,037

Boys: Yeah.

00:44:00,037 --> 00:44:00,907

That's gonna be a benefit.

00:44:02,107 --> 00:44:04,627

Mike: And, and I just, that,

that sometimes is a difference

00:44:04,627 --> 00:44:07,447

between an appointed and a

retained client, not because.

00:44:08,347 --> 00:44:14,107

There's a difference in how I treat

them, but I find that like the vast

00:44:14,107 --> 00:44:17,827

majority that either can hire you or

their family hires you is a lot more

00:44:17,827 --> 00:44:22,807

reasonable in their expectations and,

and I think it's because they grew up

00:44:22,807 --> 00:44:25,147

in a different, you know, lifestyle.

00:44:25,237 --> 00:44:25,447

Boys: Yeah.

00:44:25,507 --> 00:44:29,407

Mike: You know, they are at least a

little bit more formally educated.

00:44:30,787 --> 00:44:34,867

The ones that you know, are at

the bottom of the poverty levels

00:44:35,317 --> 00:44:37,297

probably dropped out in second grade.

00:44:37,417 --> 00:44:37,507

Mm.

00:44:37,507 --> 00:44:40,417

Which is devastating when you

hear that, you're like, oh, you

00:44:40,417 --> 00:44:41,797

didn't even get to middle school.

00:44:41,827 --> 00:44:42,217

Boys: Exactly.

00:44:42,367 --> 00:44:42,877

That's crazy.

00:44:42,877 --> 00:44:44,017

Mike: Like, can you count?

00:44:44,497 --> 00:44:44,827

Boys: Yeah.

00:44:44,917 --> 00:44:47,047

Mike: A lot of 'em can't

tell time or make change.

00:44:47,197 --> 00:44:47,557

Boys: Oh wow.

00:44:47,557 --> 00:44:51,247

Mike: And so you're asking them to

make complicated, difficult decisions

00:44:51,247 --> 00:44:52,957

and they haven't ever done that.

00:44:53,107 --> 00:44:53,347

Boys: Yeah.

00:44:53,887 --> 00:44:57,397

Mike: Other than making very adult

decisions in the community that

00:44:58,357 --> 00:44:59,617

brought them to this, that outcomes

00:44:59,617 --> 00:45:00,097

Boys: decision.

00:45:00,157 --> 00:45:00,457

Yeah.

00:45:01,057 --> 00:45:01,927

Which is crazy.

00:45:01,927 --> 00:45:02,407

So like.

00:45:02,917 --> 00:45:07,717

In the county like, 'cause I'm from New

Hanover County, you don't think that like

00:45:08,167 --> 00:45:12,337

anybody wouldn't make it out or wouldn't

at least get through middle school,

00:45:12,877 --> 00:45:14,257

but then when you go outwards mm-hmm.

00:45:14,677 --> 00:45:16,957

Into spots where like especially rural

00:45:16,957 --> 00:45:17,347

Mike: parts.

00:45:17,377 --> 00:45:19,507

Boys: Yeah, the rural parts where

like their families might need

00:45:19,507 --> 00:45:22,567

them to come help, help at the

house, help around the the farm.

00:45:22,567 --> 00:45:24,132

Something they don't have.

00:45:24,907 --> 00:45:26,737

Good point, then they're lost.

00:45:26,797 --> 00:45:26,977

Mike: Mm-hmm.

00:45:27,637 --> 00:45:29,527

Boys: So, like I said,

00:45:29,737 --> 00:45:33,367

Mike: a lot of our criminal justice

system problems could be solved with

00:45:33,547 --> 00:45:38,107

resources being reallocated towards

education and after school programs.

00:45:38,737 --> 00:45:42,817

The reality is a lot of these people back

to the square one are not bad people.

00:45:42,907 --> 00:45:43,057

No.

00:45:43,057 --> 00:45:43,147

Right.

00:45:43,207 --> 00:45:48,457

They've made bad decisions, dealt a

bad hand, and they're usually suffer

00:45:48,457 --> 00:45:50,857

from undiagnosed mental health issues.

00:45:50,917 --> 00:45:52,507

Substance abuse issues as well.

00:45:52,627 --> 00:45:52,717

Mm-hmm.

00:45:52,957 --> 00:45:57,427

Those almost always overlap and it's

really sad to see the ones that come

00:45:57,457 --> 00:45:59,137

through like the revolving door.

00:45:59,857 --> 00:46:04,327

So many of my clients I saw, you

know, five, 10 years ago, and they pop

00:46:04,327 --> 00:46:08,017

back up and you're just like, and you

didn't, you never really had a chance.

00:46:08,077 --> 00:46:08,227

No.

00:46:08,227 --> 00:46:08,797

And here we are.

00:46:08,917 --> 00:46:09,157

Boys: Mm-hmm.

00:46:09,457 --> 00:46:12,517

Mike: And sometimes they're disappointed

and embarrassed and sometimes

00:46:13,147 --> 00:46:14,257

they haven't learned their lesson.

00:46:14,257 --> 00:46:14,977

And so,

00:46:16,507 --> 00:46:16,807

Boys: yeah.

00:46:16,867 --> 00:46:17,827

And what's the only thing you know?

00:46:17,827 --> 00:46:21,157

I mean, it's a hard to learn a

lesson to do something that you don't

00:46:21,157 --> 00:46:24,007

know exists out there, or you don't

think it exists for you out there.

00:46:24,037 --> 00:46:26,647

Mike: And I think politically

speaking, people shy away

00:46:26,647 --> 00:46:28,747

from that conversation, right?

00:46:28,747 --> 00:46:32,317

Like, no, no elected politician

or person trying to get elected

00:46:32,317 --> 00:46:35,197

is gonna say we should defund

00:46:35,767 --> 00:46:36,127

Boys: something

00:46:36,127 --> 00:46:38,257

Mike: that immediately

they're, oh my God, right?

00:46:38,257 --> 00:46:39,127

And it's like, no, no, no.

00:46:39,127 --> 00:46:43,477

We're gonna move the money to

house in inmates and use it to

00:46:43,537 --> 00:46:45,847

prevent the need for inmates.

00:46:46,447 --> 00:46:46,657

Boys: Yes.

00:46:46,687 --> 00:46:50,107

Mike: Not taking away from them

to give, you know, handouts,

00:46:50,317 --> 00:46:50,647

Boys: right?

00:46:50,737 --> 00:46:50,917

Yeah.

00:46:50,947 --> 00:46:55,417

Mike: It's to help make sure that

these kids who didn't ask for this

00:46:55,417 --> 00:46:59,857

life have an opportunity to not

get in trouble and not see the

00:46:59,857 --> 00:47:01,507

lifestyle that keeps drawing them in.

00:47:01,507 --> 00:47:08,797

And, and I think the rural parts of

this county are less and less, but

00:47:08,857 --> 00:47:11,677

you talk about Brunswick Blade in

Columbus, you talk about Pender, you

00:47:11,677 --> 00:47:13,477

talking about, you know, north of here.

00:47:13,507 --> 00:47:13,597

Boys: Mm-hmm.

00:47:13,987 --> 00:47:15,787

Mike: It's devastatingly poor.