In this episode of the Paper Trail Podcast, part of our Know Your Speaker Series leading up to the Paper Trail Note Conference (PTNC), Chris sits down with Kris Fleming — business strategist, financial expert, real estate investor, and founder of The Genius Network.

Kris shares her incredible journey from growing up in poverty to becoming a successful entrepreneur, investor, and coach for women building scalable businesses. With deep experience in banking, commercial and private lending, and real estate, Kris brings a unique blend of empathy, strategy, and financial intelligence to every deal.

They discuss creative financing, how to assess borrowers beyond the numbers, and why personal responsibility and kindness are core to her investing approach. Kris also offers a preview of her upcoming talk at The Paper Trail Note Conference, happening September 18–20 in Chandler, Arizona, an event focused on real-world expertise, actionable learning, and community connection.

🎟️ Register for the Paper Trail Note Conference: https://papertrailconference.com/registration/

On this episode of the Paper Trail Podcast, I had the privilege to interview Chris Fleming.

She is a business strategist, financial expert and certified small business coach specializing in helping women entrepreneurs build profitable, scalable businesses.

We talk about how she is going to speak at the Paper Trail Conference and some insight on what she's going to talk about.

She she's also the founder of the Genius Network where she provides high impact coaching designed to help clients unlock their zone of genius and turn their expertise into wealth.

Kris has a background in banking, commercial lending, private lending, real estate investing.

Somebody I loved talking with.

It was a great episode.

I learned a lot from this episode and I don't want to give out too much information because I want you to take the time to listen to it and then come join us September 18th to the 20th in Chandler, Arizona at the paper Trail Conference.

Hope you enjoy this episode.

Hey Chris, how are you doing today?

I'm great.

How are you, Chris?

I am great.

It's easy to speak with Chris and remember names because that's something that I am awful at.

I think we'll get this one.

Yeah, I agree.

And we were just talking before hit the record button in regards to know passion and love for what you do.

And we're actually recording this on a.

Holiday, but we're both working today because.

That'S what it boils down to.

We love what we do and we love also talking about what we do as well.

So let's kind of, you know, dive right into it, Chris, and have you start with your story.

Yeah, gosh, my story is so convoluted.

I'm going to try to think about how to give you the most direct version of it.

I will tell you that I grew up in extreme poverty.

I was an only child of a single mom.

I never knew my father and my mom was mostly working all the time, two, three jobs.

We spent a lot of time homeless, living in cars and shelters.

But I understood from a very young age that my mom paid rent.

I understood that and I understood that when she didn't pay rent, we did not get to live there.

And so as an only child who spent a lot of time alone, I would play Monopoly games by myself, playing all the pieces.

And it, the games would go on for days and days because every piece has the same skill set.

Right.

So yeah, that was really how I got started in my interest in real estate was good old Monopoly.

Monopoly.

I bought my first house about eight months after my 18th birthday.

Oh, wow.

Because I couldn't believe that I had moved From California to Tennessee.

And I couldn't believe that you could get the whole property for that price.

I was like, the house and the land and everything, it all comes together.

So that became my first creative finance deal when I sold it a few years later on a lease option.

Wow, that's an amazing story to share.

Just the fact of, I mean, the struggles and stress and everything that you had to go through then to turn around and you know, basically before the age of 20, buy a property which, you know, I was in college at the age of 20 and I had the maturity level of probably a four year old.

So even if I had the money.

To buy a house, it would have.

Probably been a complete and utter disaster.

Because, you know, owning real estate is not something for the faint of heart.

I think a lot of people have this envy of wanting to own it but not really knowing what they want to get themselves into.

Would you agree?

I absolutely would.

And I will say too that one of the things that I learned with my interesting upbringing was how to not do a lot of things.

And I knew that I wanted a place that was mine and.

I.

Nobody was going to tell me to leave.

Yeah.

I typically roll into asking what's something about your journey a lot of people don't know, but probably should.

I mean, you just shared a lot of deep insight about, you know, everything is there, you know, that answered that question.

But I'll just ask it if there's another area of within your investments over your career that is also something that is unique.

Yeah.

I will say that statistically there's no way that I should be a success again.

Grew up, only child, single mom, never knew my father.

Wound up in foster care, lots of homelessness, twice divorced.

I was a single mom myself.

And all the statistics say I should not be where I am.

And I state that not to demonstrate my own power, but to share that power with all of the people who are feeling the same way that I.

My history says I'm never going to make it.

And I want them to know.

Your history doesn't have to define your future.

No.

And if I recall, the stats are pretty overwhelming in regards to people again taking a turn that could go into whether alcohol, drugs or something else that can lead you down that path.

It's amazing story that, you know, the more you share about everything you've gone through that you're right that you have had success coming up through you definitely didn't have a silver spoon, you know, or even a spoon really given to you.

But I think for People listening.

It shows that, you know, it doesn't matter where you've been, it's always about looking forward and improving day by day.

And that's something that I always recommend for people.

Just, you know, one person, you know, if you can improve, you know, 1% a month or 1% a year, you know, it's incredible the achievement you could gain.

So, yes.

In regards to real estate.

You know, everyone has a core investment philosophy or strategy.

How would you describe yours?

Oh, what a good question.

I am sort of, I guess, addicted to problem solving.

So I really like the deals that, you know, everybody wants the easy deals, the ones that are fairly obvious.

I really enjoy the deals that are far less obvious.

And you really get into some creative problem solving.

One, there's less competition for them and two, there are a lot more fun and three, they're generally a lot more lucrative as well.

But also I love to work with other people.

So a frequent strategy of mine is to somebody else finds the deal, I figure out how to put it together and I do a joint venture where I do, I own 19% of the entity that owns the real estate so that I don't have to be a guarantor on the loan, but I'm bringing the capital to make the deal done and I get to sit back and I don't have to do a lot of heavy lifting.

I don't have to find the tenants, I don't have to manage the contractors.

That is not my skill set.

My skill set is solving the problem and I like the ones that are, that are that other people don't want.

Have you ever dipped your toes in non performing loans?

I have a stack actually over here on the corner of my, the desk of my assistant.

There are eight files there that I purchased of non performing notes that I'm working through.

You want to talk problem solving?

That's what I love to do and that's what we do.

And that's just, you know, I've done.

I spent 20 years in real estate and construction or 25 and like building cool buildings and all this stuff.

And now always problem solving and notes is, you know, all aspects of real estate.

What I find is the people who are most successful in real estate are the ones who can solve the problems.

Because it's not a nice straight flat road like a Runway.

It's more like driving through the mountains is what I.

Yes.

So yes, for sure.

Sometimes it's a little bit of a roller coaster.

Oh, yes, to say the least.

So you've talked a little Bit about, you know, kind of, you know, your philosophy internally.

You know, there's.

Everyone goes by some principle.

You know, whether it's integrity, honesty, you know, how, you know, what do you.

What's your kind of, you know, one of your or several core principles that guide you on how you treat, you know, the people you work with.

You know, personal responsibility and kindness are definitely my two top core values.

I believe that as long as we are placing blame on others and not recognizing whatever responsibility we bear in a situation, and, you know, sometimes it's just 5% responsibility.

It's not 100% responsibility.

But there are no mistakes.

There are only learning opportunities unless you choose not to learn something.

So when I'm talking to potential borrowers, for example, I want to hear about their deals that went sideways and what they tell me about why I want to hear, are they playing the blame game?

Is it always somebody else's fault?

That's really important to me.

But also just being kinder than necessary.

I think that my upbringing really helped me recognize that we don't know what the person sitting next to us is going through.

You know, I tried to hide it from my classmates as much as possible, and, you know, I didn't.

I didn't want people to judge me by my situation.

I think that's true of all of us.

So considering that we don't know what the person sitting next to us is going through, a little bit of kindness can long way.

And look, if you treat the wrong person with kindness, that's a reflection of them, not a reflection of you.

Yeah, I have definitely had some instances where I put my foot in my mouth where I've done or said something and did not understand what somebody either recently went through or had to go through.

And it literally is like the worst feeling.

I just felt like, excuse phrase, an asshole.

We'll have to blur that blob that out.

But that's really.

And that's what I was in that instance.

But also based on that, I'm guessing you really will never have a career in politics if you talk about kindness and not blaming others, because, you know, that's all politicians do.

So I'm guessing we won't see you.

Running for any seats in the future.

If it seems unfruitful.

Yeah, it would seem unfruitful.

I actually, as a child, one of the things that I wanted to be when I grew up was a senator.

I thought that sounded really interesting and to have the opportunity to be so.

So such a strong participant in what I believed would be making the world a better place.

Until I realized, unfortunately, I'm probably too honest to ever get elected or if I ever got elected, to stay elected, I, I, I don't think I'd get much done because I just tell the truth about it.

I was the same because I have two relatives who were senators up in Rhode island in the past and one of them I think just finished and is not running anymore.

But it's one of those things where, you know, man, you just have to be cut a different way.

And I like to say I'm thick skinned, but I just, I don't have the patience for BS and man, I don't know how I would do it.

But.

So well, we, you know, you are speaking at the Paper Trail conference coming up in September.

It's September 18th to 20th in Chandler, Arizona.

So make sure to get your tickets, people.

You know, why is it important for you to be part of this event?

I will do anything that Beth Johnson asked me to do.

If she, she asked me to ride a giraffe all the way to Arizona to be there, I'd probably go hunting for, go looking for a giraffe.

But I think that some of the most valuable experiences we can have are sharing insights and wisdom with each other.

So I never want to be a gatekeeper of insight or wisdom.

Look, one of the best things we can do is not make all of our own mistakes.

We can learn from the mistakes of others.

So I, I think that that's, that's always important.

Yep.

And that's really one of the focus when, you know, I started putting this conference together was, you know, Beth.

I wanted to of course, break it into different segments.

And when I thought of the, you know, call it the private lending side, you know, Beth and people affiliated with her were my first choice because, you know, a, she's always educating and teaching people.

She's also doing and providing so much content out there compared to, you know, I know there's other conferences and other people who, I'll use the term or more gurus where they're just selling things and everything is just the sales.

And every speaker that I've spoken with on every podcast that we're recording, it's really this, that is one of the core values of everybody is providing as much content and education to people as possible.

Nobody's expecting anything in return and it's just an event where people can just collaborate and learn more about your everybody's business.

Because every aspect of real estate, you can never know it all.

You can always Continue learning.

Absolutely.

And, you know, if you want to go far, go together.

Yep, exactly.

Oiling your entire session.

What's one of the things that you hope the attendees can, you know, leave listening to you?

Either something they think differently about or just something they pick up or learn.

What's the main message you're hoping to get across?

You know, that's such a great question.

I think for me, I have such a passion for people feeling empowered and living in just a mindset of gratitude and not a mindset of fear.

So I hope that people take away from not just my session, but the entire experience.

Right.

That they feel better equipped to make excellent decisions and that they sleep better at night because they feel good about the decisions that they're making.

You know, for, again, people listening, again, that's something that we pride and focus on, is really getting the content out to you to get educated and really just walk away from feeling that attending this conference has made a difference for you.

You know, next question that popped in my head is part of this is that investor journey.

And you've spoken with, talked with, worked with lots of different types of investors.

In your opinion, what makes somebody use the term a great investor or the types of people you see succeed?

What's a trait that you see for people that feel they just get it?

I think people who are really good listeners, I think it's so important to.

Obviously you want to evaluate the documents and the paperwork and the overall deal.

I personally, you know, I'm not doing this at a grand scale like, you know, Flynn Family Lending, for example, is doing.

And so I'm still talking to each borrower in, you know, live, whether it's virtual or phone call or whatever, I'm still talking to them.

I'm sure that's partly because the deals that I we do are very weird.

And so I'm sort of the lender of last resort, but listening for the things that people do not say when they're speaking, listening to the.

The words that they choose to use and not necessarily making assumptions about those, but asking questions.

You know, an example would be, I like to use this example quite a bit, actually.

And that is around blame versus responsibility.

I've always told my kids that there are no mistakes, there are only learning opportunities.

And that every mistake that you make, if you take the opportunity to learn something from it, then you can still get value from it.

So when I'm talking to a borrower and I'm asking about how previous projects have gone and what went wrong and why did it go wrong, so on and so forth, I want to hear what they learned from it.

So if they're telling me, well, that one went wrong because the contractor, this, that and the other and this other one went wrong because my business partner this, that and the other and this one went wrong because the realtor, this, that and the other I'm hearing I haven't learned anything because nothing's ever been my responsibility.

So that's what I mean by I want to listen for what they're not saying.

And I think that the people who are most successful are the people who can hear what they're not saying.

And kind of with that, okay, a lot of times we talk to people who do play that blame game.

And at the end of the day it's your money, it's your responsibility and it's going to be your fault at the end of the day.

I have conversations with my wife all the time.

If there's a deal that goes bad, my wife doesn't want to hear, well, the attorney or the service or somebody screwed up, that's great.

She's going to look at me and say it's on you at the end of the day.

And, and perfect example that I'll share in our non performing space was somebody posted once on Facebook a comment about the storms in North Carolina and that they were upset with their servicer because a servicer hadn't gone out and checked to make sure the property was still there or any of these things.

And I commented and replied back to him.

I'm like, that's not your servicer's job.

I said, servicer's job is to confirm that the borrower is paying on time and if they're not to make up a pick up the phone and say hey, your payments behind.

But it, you know, in this area also didn't have power or you couldn't get there.

So I'm like, what did you expect the service to do?

To fly out there?

I'm like, it's your responsibility if you want to know what's going on with the property for you to send somebody out there.

Now you can hire the servicer to do that.

But a lot of people think that they sit on the top of the mountain on some throne and just whatever pops in their head is everyone's supposed to be able to be mind readers and just do it and do it for free?

Which we.

Yes, particularly the do it for free part.

Right?

Yeah, that one is.

That's another something.

So as you know, as an educator.

And a trainer And a coach.

And as a consultant, I, you know, I encounter a lot of folks who, you know, I watch them ask my friends, can I take you to a cup of coffee and can I buy you a cup of coffee and pick your brain.

A cup of coffee is nice, but it's not a fair exchange for what you're getting.

These are people who have done really well.

They can buy their own cup of coffee, and it's taken them 30 years to acquire this knowledge.

You cannot purchase it for a cup of coffee.

Bring them a deal that they can work with you and get paid on it and teach you the ropes while you're learning.

So you can both get paid on it.

It's much more valuable.

Their 30 years of knowledge is much more valuable than a cup of coffee.

Not that I don't want to be.

Taking a coffee, but don't try to download my brain over a cup of coffee.

It's not fair.

No, the one I enjoy too is.

And I offer my services to people in regards to, hey, I'll answer a quick question and so forth, and somebody might reach out.

And then all of a sudden I'll be like, hey, look, bottom of my meal, you can book a meeting with me and, you know, schedule some time.

Then the person replies back, the earliest you have is next Tuesday.

And I'm like, yeah, well, I need an answer before then.

I'm like, then find somebody else.

Because I'm doing this on my free time, which, I'll be honest with you, I charge about 2 to 2:50 an hour is what I would charge for this.

So be thankful that I'm giving you 15, 20 minutes of free time or free response.

And yeah, I get booked up pretty quickly because I run a company, you know, go to any other company, you know, real estate company, and call the CEO and say randomly, hey, can I, you know, just pop by anytime and just step in and answer questions and it'll look like you, like you have six heads.

Exactly.

I'm not complaining.

Again, I enjoy doing it, but people gotta be on a little bit more thoughtful in regards to, you know, can I do something for this person?

Here's another story I'll share was I had an individual reach out to me and we run a fund and they were asking about some other funds and they said, you know, we're looking to diversify.

We really like your fund.

He's like, is there anyone else you can, you know, refer?

And I'm like, well, I can tell you who I've heard.

I haven't invested in these other ones.

But here's some ones that are good and here's some questions to ask and you know, blah, blah, blah.

And probably spend 30 minutes with this person.

Now, like a month and a half later, the person reaches back out to me and is like, hey, you know, I just want to be upfront.

I'm not going to invest in your fund, but can we set up another call?

Because I'd really like to pick your brain to learn more about this other fund and some of the things I should, you know, you know, other questions I should be asking them.

And I didn't even reply to the email.

I just let it go because at first I'm like, wow, the set of cajones on this person to, you know, really ask that.

But I'm like, you know, read the room, buddy.

Like, seriously, you know, it's like, you know, yeah, yeah, you want to take my wife on a date too?

I mean, like, you know, what else do you want from me?

So look, I'm happy to make that appointment.

It's $295 an hour.

Credit card payment is accepted in advance.

Exactly.

No refunds after with less than 24.

Hours notice of cancellation.

Yeah, but I'd probably do that, get the 295 and then I'd probably turn around and get sued because then they said I was providing financial advice on something else that didn't go their way because they read the PPM wrong.

But yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

So I hear you.

That's.

That is a remarkable request.

Moving on.

You know, what's one mistake that you do see newer investors make that you try to help them avoid a lot besides just trying to take advantage of somebody's time and understanding what that time is.

Yeah.

One thing that I see over and over again is what the doc when they're underwriting.

Right.

So when we're talking about note creators and their underwriting and they're looking at a document and they're saying, you know, well, this is a bank statement.

And I'm like, no, it's not.

Is not a bank statement statement.

That is a screenshot of a bank balance that has no date on it, no account holder name on it.

Yes, it does have a bank name on it and it has a balance.

But there's no way of determining from the document that you're looking at that it's their account or when that was taken.

So understanding that the document that they think they have is not necessarily the document that they have.

I've seen that experience as well with like wire transfer notifications.

Oh, well, they sent me this wire transfer notification.

That's great.

It shows that it came from them, but it doesn't show where it went.

They didn't send you a complete document.

So, yeah, my encouragement, particularly for newer folks, is to don't just look at the title of the document and assume you have what you need, actually read it and make sure that it has all the information that you're looking for.

Interesting thing I learned several months ago because as we all know, some fraud is increasing and there's a company out there that does AI and can read the bank statements and provide reports for you, but also can detect fraud.

So ask the question, Mike.

Well, how can you detect fraud?

And they said, well, it's simple because every bank actually has their own custom font and font size.

Really?

If you try to falsify and like put a PDF over like the date or something, or change the numbers on.

I'll just use a Chase statement.

This system can pick it up because Chase has, you know, it might look like Times New Roman, but they have a custom font and custom font size.

So there is no PDF editor out there that has that font and font size.

So it can easily be picked up.

Really?

I had never, I mean, I worked in banking for.

And finance for a decade and a half.

I never heard that before.

That's what they told me.

So I'm like, it makes sense that happens.

Then the other one that we are starting to use now, which again, a service just for people listening.

So now through Plaid, Plaid has systems where now you can verify, like if they say you this, you can verify that banking information, which is, you know, cool to make sure that again, there's not a, you know, an error on a statement.

So.

But 100% right back to what you said is people have a checklist and they get a document and just check it and don't actually look at the document where it's like, yes, you still need to look at the document.

So.

Right.

Yes.

I described it to someone yesterday actually, as you know, a checklist is great, but if you think about it as a recipe, let's say you're baking a cake.

A checklist is a recipe to bake a cake.

But what you really need to understand in this business is the chemistry of how the baking soda and the salt and the egg and the flour combine when you apply heat to them for X amount of time to get the cake at the end.

So a checklist is a great tool, but it's not.

It's not the full understanding.

Oh, I really like that.

That's a great analogy.

That's a great analogy.

Because also when you think about it, when you're getting this information.

And again, I'm just thinking baking, you know, a cake, if you got a little too much of one thing versus another, hey, you might have to make adjustments on it, but you need to understand the importance of every one of those ingredients and are able to make those adjustments.

And that's where experience, of course, comes in.

Yes.

Yeah.

A lot of that is just repetition.

And, you know, if you're not sure, have financial friends that you look over their shoulder and they look over yours.

I mean, I've got friends.

When something is unclear to me, I'll say, can you look at this with me?

And vice versa.

The other thing, too, is if you're originating a loan, there's underwriters out there and services for anywhere from 500 to 750 bucks.

They'll underwrite the whole loan for you and basically go through and tell you, kind of give you an idea of what's coming up.

And they've got experience because they've probably done thousands of them.

And it's a cost that you can go back and charge the borrower.

And you can also learn from their experience.

To get the experience, keep doing it.

Yes.

I love the idea, actually, of doing your own underwriting and then sending it to one of these organizations to see, you know, how it matched up, how did you do?

And then that gives you the opportunities to learn and improve 100%.

That's, again, another great little, you know, nugget right there of ways to learn is do it yourself.

And then it's like, hand it to the teacher.

Let the teacher go.

Do, you know, take the same test and send it back to you, and you can kind of see how you did.

So, yeah.

Not to mention, if you caught stuff.

That they didn't, you also have a measure of their.

The value that you're receiving for your.

Your investment.

Yeah, 100%.

Okay, let's enter the lightning round.

Okay, so, you know, kind of really great here.

Yep.

Really quick.

I say that, and then we just keep talking.

But, you know, what's.

What's a word or phrase, how you would describe the current real estate market?

Weird.

It's weird.

I.

There are so many financial indicators that should historically be indicating X, but instead we're getting Q.

And there are some artificial manipulations going on that, you know, lots of arguments could be made for or against or neutral it's just weird.

Yeah.

Everybody logically, I think is like, okay, interest rates shot up, home prices got their bump.

But eventually at some point something's got to give, either the rates or the pricing.

Everyone's kind of sitting there with their popcorn waiting to see and month and month keep going on and nothing's happening.

And it's like, okay, you know, and like, you know, and all of a sudden if something pops one direction the other, then everyone's going to be like, I told you so.

Because it seems logical that salaries aren't jack getting jacked up, but insurance, taxes and everything else is.

So where's all this money come from?

That's really right.

Right.

I think too, with a lot of the, you know, the larger commercial loans coming up on rate adjustments and balloons and lending appetites of large institutions have changed.

I've had, I've had at least three calls in the last seven days of people who are looking for new lending because they have a rate adjustment or a balloon coming up with their bank and the bank has told them, we're not going to renew your loan.

We don't have an appetite for this collateral anymore.

So, yeah, it's, it's about to get.

I, I am concerned that it's about to get, unfortunately, interesting.

However, if you are not over leveraged and you're watching carefully and you're checking the pulse and you trust but verify.

I'm sure we've all heard the wisdom that downturns are when fortunes are made.

Now please let me say I am not predicting a downturn.

I'm just saying if that's what happens.

Because historically the indicators on a historical basis predict a downturn.

I don't know what's going to happen because it's weird.

Yeah, it's.

Everyone's kind of just scratching their heads a little bit and nobody knows, let's be honest, nobody knows.

What's one thing you've changed your mind about in the last year?

You know, I used to say every deal is a good deal if you can come up with the right exit strategy and the right, you know, leverage structure, cash structure, equity structure.

I used to really believe that with all of the levers that we can move and manipulate, every deal could be a good deal with the right manipulation.

I don't believe that anymore.

I have heard increasingly about deals that, well, I mean, I heard one, two weeks ago that, you know, the, the ARV of a property was going to be, it was a small single family home in Ohio and the ARV was going to be 150.

But the repairs due to foundation, structural issues and everything else, the repairs were going to be like 170.

Well, there's no way that I can think of to make that a good deal.

I mean it's going to cost you more to even just demolish it.

So.

Yeah, I just might, I don't know what you do with that.

So agree on that as well.

Last question.

One person you'd like to thank for your success.

I don't know if I can tell you this without crying.

There is a woman who is no longer with us on this plane of existence.

She.

I was a broke single mom following my, my divorce against my will.

And I had been a stay at home mom.

I had a three year old and a five year old and I found myself single not by my desire.

And I was just trying to find a way to make life work with these, these babies.

And a woman gave me a chance and her name was Kathy Carter.

And she trusted me and believed in me enough to just give me a shot.

And she changed my life forever.

I mean it was, it was a part time bank teller job but it changed my life forever and it launched me in a completely new trajectory.

And in fact that bank branch was torn down a couple of years ago and it's in another city.

My husband was kind enough to ask one of his co workers, this is a secret so don't tell anybody.

Chris snuck over to the site and grabbed one of the bricks for me of the, the bank where I started my financial services endeavors.

So I'm not going to get up and grab it.

But yeah, I, I have a brick over here from the original bank where I started and rest in peace.

Kathy Carter.

No, that's a heartwarming story as just your entire journey has just, you know, has been, you know, incredible and defy, you know, most people, you know, most people in this business look at everything as numbers and statistics and now you have defied every odds that has come out there.

So it really boils down to just the story you tell and just your integrity, your honesty, the hard work and you know, never giving up.

And it's something that people really can emulate and look forward to seeing that, you know, not everybody is always dealt a great hand and just you know, things happen in life and you know, some people have, you know, things that aren't so great that happen but to be able to pick up the pieces really shows just the strong will and character that you've possessed.

And now everything you do, you know, with your businesses and stuff is phenomenal.

So want to thank you for coming on this episode of the Paper Trail podcast and look forward to seeing you in a few months at the conference in Chandler, Arizona.

Well, thank you so much.

It's a genuine pleasure and I'm super excited.

So those listening, you can check out the show notes with information if you'd like to to reach out to Chris.

And again, we look forward to seeing you in September.

Thank you all.