Learning to Thrive Beyond Pornography use was the greatest challenge of our life and marriage. It had rocked my self confidence, tainted all of the most important experiences of my life and become the most impossible challenge I had.

With this podcast or at https://www.zachspafford.com you'll learn about the struggle, how to overcome pornography use, and where to find additional resources to begin to thrive beyond pornography with your spouse.

At some point I took a step away from all the 12 step meetings and councilors and started to figure out my own brain, to look at my issue as something that I had the answer to and I was going to figure it out. Here I share those lessons and give you the power to start your own journey free. Whether you struggle with unwanted pornography use or are the spouse or partner, whether you feel stuck or just don't know where to start, here I will teach you principles, tools and skills that you can use today to change how you think and, in the end, what you do.

You'll hear interviews with my spouse, with experts on human sexuality and with former and current pornography users on how you can overcome your own struggle with addictive behavior.

The Thrive Beyond Pornography podcast will bring new perspective to your struggle and keep you coming back to improve all aspects of your life. (formerly, The Self Mastery Podcast: Overcome Pornography Forever)

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Hey everybody. And welcome to thrive beyond pornography. I'm your host, Zach Spafford. Today, I'm going to actually read you and discuss a question that I got sent from one of my current clients. And when I say current clients, I've been working with this guy, I've worked with this guy in the past. I'm working with him now, but I want you to understand that when people come to us, It's lifetime. Lifetime that we take care of them that when they set up individual coaching and when they set up the membership, it's a lifetime program.

So we're not just going to have a conversation for a few weeks or a few months, and then that's it. You're done. We're never going to talk to you again. This guy, he I've been working with him for. One of the oldest guys I've been working with he still gets coaching.

It's not always on porn. In fact, The guy that I think of that I've been working with the longest, or that keeps coming to the open coaching calls he's been working or coming to the open coaching calls for about three. And a half, maybe four years now. So these calls, this product, the things that we do to take care of people.

This is lifetime. As long as you go through the program and you're doing the work I'm here to help you. And I want you to know that I want anybody who is on this call. It's Christmas time. You're probably getting ready for Christmas. And you're thinking, man, I've also got this thing going on in the background.

Maybe I should do something about that this Christmas, or maybe for new year's. I want a whole new year to be the best new year of our lives. I want you to understand that when Darcy and I do this with people, we do it with individuals. We do it with couples. We even worked sometimes with teenagers. The work that we do, we offer it as a lifetime product. We believe so deeply in the work that we do, we have the receipts, we have the scientific literature that shows that the work that we do is good work that is demonstrably better.

It's scientifically, evidence-based demonstrably better than all the other programs out there. And that's why we do it. That's why we offer it as a lifetime because we know if you do the work, you actually will succeed no matter what. So I want to offer you, or I want to share with you this question that came, because I think it's really good question.

And it's one of those ones. This is an example of the work that we do that it's not just. Dealing with porn as this is the only problem it's thriving beyond pornography. It's thriving in your relationship and in your life beyond just this one large issue that so many people have that so many people struggle with and dealing with the growing up and growing through this process. So the email I got said,

" Hey, Zach, I just wanted to check in with you on how I'm doing and get some advice.

I've been working on my sexual relationship with my wife and like we talked about a few weeks ago, I'm working on getting rid of bad habits like pouting when she says no. To having sex being the midnight molester, as you would say,"... We joke around, like you try and push the buttons as long as you can until finally your wife gives it. And that's the Midland midnight molester we call it... "I've been trying to do nice things for her, like shoulder rubs without expecting anything in return to. I have noticed improvement in our relationship and she has as well.

However, I'm still having a hard time dealing with when she says no. The thing that you helped me realize I'm struggling with is the feeling of being rejected and me turning to porn to cope with that. I've been doing good, but I'm starting to get that little worried feeling creeping in. Like I do every so often.

I feel like it's inevitable that I'm going to mess up again and it kind of builds until eventually I give in, that's been the cycle in the past. How do I break this cycle?"

So a lot of good questions in there. A lot of good information in there. A lot of things that I think so many people are dealing with that.

I wanted to share this with you because it's a very, very good demonstration of one, the coaching that we do to the things that you guys are dealing with in your sexual relationships. And I'm going to give you some really key tips as to what you can do. And of course you can always sign up for coaching.

You can always come and get coached because sometimes it's difficult to see these things just out of a podcast and we'll really dig in for you on exactly what's going on in your situation. So it's not just going to be. A generic answer, like what I'm going to give now, but it's going to be your answer.

It's going to be an answer for you about what's going on for you.

Okay. So I want to start by recognizing one of the things that he says here is. One of the things we talked about is that he's struggling with feeling rejected whenever his wife says no to him, this is a very common reality. In fact, I can tell you. For me, this was a big deal in dealing with this, for me to come out of this space where I felt rejected every time my wife said no, and start to understand. What it was that I was asking my wife to do for me. Helped me become someone who no longer needed her to make me feel good.

So what I, what happens. What happens for a lot of people, a lot of men, especially is when they go to their wife and they say, Hey, I would like to have sex with you. Or they give the signals, all the signals, whatever the signals are in your household, you know what they are, whatever the signals are that you give to your wife.

He said, Hey, give me, let's, let's make love. Let's have sex. One of the things that's happening for you for a lot of men is that they're utilizing this as a barometer, a measure. Of whether or not they can be, feel okay about themselves. Or am I loved? Am I enough? Am I good enough in this relationship.

So when we're asking for sex, a lot of times, the reason we're asking for sex, the reason we're going to our wife and saying, Hey, let's make out. That's how I used to say to Darcy. I would say, "Hey, let's make out" one of the reasons why we're doing that is because we want our wife, our spouse, our love. The person who is the most important person in the world to us, we want them to reflect back to us that we are enough. For them at some level, that we're enough that we are loved, that we are. Providing well that we are the kind of husband that we are supposed to be, whatever that looks like.

You have to kind of dig in and you have to understand what your version of that looks like in specific terms, but it's in broad terms. It's am I enough? Okay. So we go to them, we say, Hey, will you make love with me? So I can feel like I'm enough. And then. What, what happens if they say no? We automatically feel like we're not enough.

We feel rejected. We feel invalidated. We feel like we are not the kind of person who can be desired. This is really difficult. I'll be honest with you. I know from personal experiences is difficult.

Well, so there's two, there's a couple of possible scenarios here. I'm going to give you two, one scenario is she says, yes. Even though she doesn't want to, so she can manage how you feel.

And then you receive sex. She gives into you. She makes love with you, but she's not into it. And that feels pretty bad at the end. That's also for a lot of men, especially as it goes along, that's not love. That's not enjoyable. That's not really good sex. That's not really a good sexual relationship.

And that's not really what it is that you want. What you want is to feel desired. So that's option number one, option. Number two is she says, "no."

And then she feels bad. That she's not giving you the things that you want. Hi. So we've got these two competing scenarios and she, she feels bad and she feels guilty and she feels frustrated that maybe she's not living up to the expectations that she has of herself or believes that you have of her and this sense of sexual disconnect within that space.

And then of course, when she says, "no," you feel rejected, so you feel terrible anyway. And so a lot of people are caught in this dynamic of these two scenarios.

What I want you to understand and what this client is starting to understand. Is that there's a different dynamic. There's a third dynamic and option that we can go into where we don't get rid of the discomfort. We get good at enduring it.

We get good at being in it and not making it mean anything about us and not letting it take us over and not letting us get hooked by it and dragged down into this abyss of like the suck I like to call it. And in that space, what you do is you go and you move closer to your partner. You choose closeness with them while holding onto yourself usually your wife is not rejecting you because of you.

She's usually rejecting you because of how she feels or what she wants or how she has been dealing with her day. So in that third space and what this guy is saying is he saying I was struggling with the feeling of being rejected and you helped me realize that. And I used that feeling of rejection. To catalyze my choice to view pornography, meaning. I would try to escape.

Well, What is porn? One of the things I love to say that porn is, is it's always validating and. What I mean by that is. You never go to porn. You never go to the internet and you type in, Hey, I'd like to view XYZ. It doesn't matter what it is, whatever your version of going to the internet is. And, and it could be just the, you know, the doom scroll or it could be any of those other things. You never go to the internet and ask it for validation and it tells you no. The internet always says, yes, it's never like, oh, I don't really feel like it's an irony. Can you imagine typing into Google?

I would like to see, and then it's like, ah, I just don't feel like doing that tonight. Can we just cuddle instead? That's not what porn is. That's not what the internet is going to do. It's always going to say yes. It's always going to say yes to what you want. And that's highly validating. It, it, it is. The internet telling you, yeah, I'll give you whatever you want.

And these people, they look at you in the eyes and they're saying, I desire you obviously it's fake, but it's highly validating in the moment. And of course, then you also have that bad feeling afterward of "am I being the person that I told my spouse, I would be? Am I living up to the expectations that I've set for myself?"

So that those dynamics start to break down when you are willing to step into the discomfort. Step into being closer to your partner. Step into managing your own emotions and managing your own sense of self. In the face of that rejection. And let me tell you what that looks like.

So for me, one of the things that I did is I, I, at one point I said, I'm not going to take duty sex ever again. I don't want duty sex. What I want is a partner who loves me and desires me.

So I have a couple of things that I've got to do in there. Number one is I've got to ask myself, what does it mean to be desirable? Now. W one of the things I can tell you, a lot of guys, they do this nice guy contract. One of the ways they try to. Manage their partner into giving them sex is by closing all of their spouses browser tabs and expecting them then to show up sexually within the relationship.

That's not, that's not really a good idea.

I'll be honest with you. That is. Manipulative, but it's also. Uh, it's also problematic because it's, it's a contract that you've created that the other person hasn't agreed to. And so they don't feel free in choosing you. They feel obligated and choosing you. Okay. So that's one of the things that you have to be clear about.

You have to be clear about what am I doing? Two. Manage my partner into sex and start letting go of that. Stop doing that and be desirable. Now here's the funny thing about that. You may do all of the same thing. So if one of the ways that you close all your spouse's browser tabs is by cleaning up the house, getting the kids to bed, make sure the dishes are done. Uh, making the bed. Doing all of the things that need to be done so that she doesn't have to think about them. You may not stop doing that.

You may actually keep doing that. But if the way or the, the. The meaning behind why you're choosing to do that. Shifts if that shifts from I'm going to do this so I can make it so that she will have sex with me. If we shift from that meaning frame to I'm going to do this because it needs to be done. And I'm a part of this household and it's my responsibility. And if she chooses to have sex with me because of that, so be it. But I'm going to choose to do this. And then I'm going to also just be close to her and let her know what my desires are without any sense of obligation, without any sense of entitlement, but with a sense that I want to create space for her to choose in.

That's a difference, right? So that's, that's what this client is trying to do. He's saying, I realized I'm struggling with the feeling of being rejected. And that sometimes takes me towards porn. And I don't like dealing with when she says no, but the right here, he's on the cusp of it. He's in this space of "I'm gonna rub her shoulders without expecting anything."

I'm going to do nice things for her. Not because I'm wanting her to do something for me, but because I want to choose closeness with her. So in that space, what you start to create. Is a sense of self. That is solid in who he is. So when I stopped saying yes to, to duty sex and I. And she would say, "no, I don't really want to, but I'll give it to you." I would say, "no, I don't want that." I would still feel rejected.

Which is funny because she's saying, "oh no, I'll give you what you want." But I would still feel rejected because he didn't feel like she really wanted me.

It felt like she wanted to manage me. You see the parallels here? She's managing me. By giving me sex when I want it, even though she doesn't want to. And I'm managing her by getting the household chores done. And doing all the right things. And closing all her browser tabs. Right. And in doing all of that. We create obligation.

We create a meaning frame wherein each of us services the other in one way or another, but neither of us chooses the other. And that's right where this client is. He's on the cusp of how do I move from servicing? To choosing. And part of the equation, he doesn't have control over. He, his wife is in that space where she may be not trustful.

She's not trusting what he's doing. She might be. And I would love it. So this is an email, but I would love to have a conversation with this client because I think part of the, the conundrum here. Part of the difficulty here is that she may not yet be trusting who he is. Because for many years, he said, this is who I am.

I manage you and you give me what I want. And she gives him what he wants so she can manage him so that he will do the things that she wants. Okay. So you see the two way street that they've created there. They probably like each other, but she may not trust this new version, this new dance.

So part of the difficulty in moving into the new space. Is recognizing that it will take time on the other side. And she has to step into that.

You have to continue to be steady in that you have to be willing to allow for the fact that she's not going to trust you. Why doesn't she trust you? Because you're not desirable. You haven't been doing the things that the w this way before. And now you're moving the equation from untrustworthy and manipulative management. Servicing sex. Management of desire.

You're moving it from there to choice and freedom. And space to clearly come in and be together. That's a huge difference. That's a big shift. And so she doesn't trust that right away. You got to keep steady on, you got to keep moving through this and be willing to say. "I'm working on this space. I'm seeking to create choice and freedom here. I don't want you to give me sex because I want it. I want you to choose it."

And having that conversation with her, maybe valuable, maybe one of the things that helps you create greater trust. It may be one of the things that helps you move into greater choice, greater self validation, one and greater sense that this is an open space where you can come to play together.

So, part of the equation is moving from. Obligation into trust and desire. Setting aside all of the difficulties that you're creating by managing each other. And putting yourselves in a position to reframe. The meaning frame that you're, that you've been using to engage with each other sexually and within your relationship.

Part of that includes getting good at feeling rejected, getting good at being undesired and then reflecting on, "well, am I undesirable or does she just not want to choose sex because of something that's going on for her?" And working through those feelings, being with those feelings and not. Letting them disorganize you. But staying centered, staying grounded and being in a space where you're clear, I am being a good partner. And the more I continue to be a good partner.

And the more likely it is that she will be able to choose in. Not from a position of obligation, but from a position of desire and freedom. Okay.

So that's part of this equation. That's a big part. That's probably the most difficult part of this equation. And of course, I've talked about it really quickly. You know, here's 15 minutes of how all that works.

And if you want to dig into that more, obviously we can talk about it. In open coaching or in private coaching, whatever it is that works for you. But the next part of his question is I've been doing really well. But I'm starting to get that little word feeling creeping in. Like I do every so often. And it's inevitable.

I know there are a lot of guys out there who think there's this feeling that comes. It's it's happened to many of us. There's this sense that comes where it's like, oh, This is coming from me. And a lot of us have had that little voice in the back of her head say, well, you know, you might as well give in. Because if you don't, you're going to have to fight with this for the next six hours or all day or until next week.

Okay. And this is a big deal. This component of this equation of this putting porn behind you is a tough one, partly because it, it requires you to get habitual. About the way that you deal with these feelings. Part of it is because it requires you to accept and move into your agency in a way that you've not ever done before. And part of it requires that you.

Change the way that you talk to your spouse and talk to yourself. About the cycle that's going on.

So let's talk about these number one.

Getting habitual about the way that you deal with these feelings. One of the things that you learn in the process of putting porn behind you through act and through the methodology that I teach. Uh, which revolves around act is. That habitually, dealing with your feelings in a new and meaningful way allows you to take a lot more control of the situation without needing to control your feelings. So, what does that mean?

A lot of us feel like these feelings and thoughts are becoming oppressive and it's like, oh, I'm just being crushed by this until I give in. One of the things that you have to be able to do is be with those thoughts and feelings without believing them to be you. So a lot of times when our brain offers us a thought, we go, oh, well, that's true.

I might as well, because if I don't. That thought process. We believe it's true because it comes from our own brain and we trust herself to a large degree. Right. So what you want to understand is that there are techniques like NAB and I've taught you guys NAB (N. N. A. A. B. B.) in the podcast. You can also use leaves on a stream...

These are ACT diffusion techniques that allow you to take a thought or feeling that comes in and deal with it. In a way that allows you to not have to get hooked or drawn in by that feeling, but allow it to exist without needing to do anything about it.

The key to all of that. Is that it's habitual because if you have to dredge up willpower or motivation in a moment where you feel weak and you've been bombarded. It's very unlikely that you're going to succeed because it's not a habitual way of dealing with your brain. The more habitual, you can make these techniques in your life.

So they automatically process. They automatically start and they automatically move you towards a space of clarity. The more likely it is that you will succeed. And that takes practice. And I'll be honest with you. Lots of people don't want to practice. Lots of people just want to. Here's the answer, do it one time and you'll succeed forever.

That's not really how it works. You have to habitualize this, you have to turn it into a regular practice. You have to be willing to do the work. Okay. So habitualizing, it means changing the way that you interact with your feelings and practicing that process over, and over, and over again until it becomes automatic. Okay.

Number two, the number two thing is. Part of it requires that you accepted moving your agency in a way that you've not ever done before. Part of the difficulty in this oppression, these oppressive feelings is that. We feel like there's only one answer. The only answer that we're ever supposed to be able to give is I don't choose porn.

Well, the problem with that is, is that's not a position of agency. Agency requires that you have three things, you have to have a knowledge of what's right and wrong. And when I say a knowledge of what's right and wrong, it's what is right for me, what is okay for me in my life and my relationship, who do I want to be?

How do I want to show up what is right and wrong? Okay. Number two, you have to have consequences. So there are consequences to choosing porn. There are consequences to not choosing porn. There are consequences to being somebody who eats meat. There are consequences to being a vegetarian.

There are consequences in your life. As long as there are consequences, you are able to have agency. Now the third part, the third component of agency is that you have to be able to say both. Yes and no. Now. In my program. I talk about this in depth, but I just want to give you kind of the reader's digest version here.

Most of us, when it comes to porn, if we struggle with pornography, We struggle because we... we don't have a yes. There's no, "yes" allowed. Because we don't have. We don't have a culture of being able to accept this as a choice. Now, the funny thing is, is that you are choosing it. So it's a weird dynamic that in our brains, we're like, we're not allowed ever to say yes to this. But sometimes we do. So we have this weird dynamic that creates a lot of friction.

And this is, this is where kind of the rubber meets the road on this one. You have to be willing to say. Yeah, I can choose porn. That's true as a grown man. As a, as a teenager with access to the internet as a married person, as a non-married person, I have access to pornography and I can choose to view it. Does that align with my values?

No. But I can choose it.

Once we fully step into that position. It actually frees our brain up to let go of the conflict that that has created. So when we think, oh, I can't do something or I'm not allowed to think that, or I have to up. Suppress this feeling because it is. Uh, it will actually become more oppressive. If we try to suppress it and that's, well-documented in the white bear pink elephant experiments, you can go Google those.

I've talked about them at length on the podcast. But. What you have to know is unless, and until you step into your agency, this process doesn't work. Unless, and until you step into full ownership of your decision-making process, This process doesn't work. No process will work for you by the way.

The reality is is that the more we suppress these thoughts and feelings, the more oppressive they will feel, the more likely it is that they will continue to hound us until we do give in. She have to be aware of that you have to be able to step out of that dynamic into a different dynamic wherein you are fully empowered and you make choices based on who you want to be, that move you and align you with your values. Okay.

The last thing is changing the way that you talk to your spouse. And the way that you talk to yourself about your pornography choices. You know when you've got somebody who like my client here, who he's like, I've been doing so good and I'm starting to get a little worried. And that feeling is creeping in like it does every so often. That it's inevitable and I'm going to mess up and all this eventuality kind of builds itself in that's, you know, that cycle.

You have to start to talk to yourself differently. You have to start to be able to engage in this in a different way. You part of that may be saying, Hey honey, I feel like I'm in that inevitable space where I might choose porn. I want you to know. That I'm working through that.

I want you to understand my feelings. I don't want you to solve this for me. I don't want you to have sex with me to make it go away. I don't want you to get super nervous because the truth is I might choose porn. I might not. Right. So we go back to that agency. We step into that more fully and we go, and we deal with it directly in a meaningful way, rather than trying to run from it, rather than trying to suppress it, rather than putting ourselves in a position to where we're fighting with our brain. We have to change the way that we're talking to ourselves.

And that takes a little bit of effort that takes work. That takes time. It takes new habits, right? So you can see how all of these components are working themselves in together. And the more you do this, the more likely it is that you'll succeed.

I hope that that gives you a much broader picture, a good picture of how you can actually succeed. If you're willing to put in the work, I tell people all the time. This is not some like magic pill where all of a sudden, all of everything goes your way. It's work and the more you're willing to put the work in, the more likely it is that you'll succeed. And the more, you will be pleased with the result, because if you get something for nothing, we're very unpleased with the results most of the time.

I want you to see this as a process. I want you to understand it. I want you to sign up for a consult if you think, oh, I'd like to actually get going on this process.

I'm trying to tell you guys the real deal. This isn't, this isn't a magic pill, but it is doable and it is a process.

And it's something that you can replicate, especially if you have help. And I want to help you do that. All right. My friends, I hope you have a great week. Merry Christmas.

I will have a episode for you on Monday next week, but I love you guys.

And I'm so grateful for you. Please review the podcast, set up a consult if you're ready and I would love to see you. And I hope to talk to you guys next week.