In Episode 10 Dr. Brian Lambert is back in the Orchestrate Sales Studios with Erich Starrett, for part two of a two-part interview.  Dr. Lambert is a Digital Value Architect at Elastic, co-founder of OSC, SES, and co-host of Inside Sales Enablement seasons one and two.

In this segment we pivot from past to present and future, with an emphasis on the impact of AI and the new data = fuel paradigm. Highlights from the second part of our interview:

PAST

⌛️ What is Brian's take on the recent move by primary research companies to shift from "Sales" to "Revenue" and the Sales Enablement Society following suit to Revenue Enablement Society?

PRESENT

⌛️ Now that Brian has moved into the Marketing organization, what is his experience like compared to the Sales or Ops or Talent Enablement functions?

⌛️ How does data collection compare among the functions?

⌛️ What would it mean to truly be Revenue Enablement?

⌛️ In line with recent interactions with @Hilary Headlee, Erich suggests the best first step towards true Revenue Enablement may be for Enablement leaders to engage with #RevOps and Brian reacts to the suggestion.

FUTURE

⌛️ Brian talks about the shift in focus from company to employee to customer ...and now we are shifting towards a data focus. A data centric view. One for which individuals, functions, and entire companies are ill prepared to pivot towards and fully embrace and benefit.

⌛️ A potential new paradigm of looking at data less as a byproduct of doing work and more as a fuel for the digital economy.

⌛️ The promise and potential hurdles of AI for Enablement. 

>>> Understanding, embracing, and tapping into a hybrid human + artificial "collective intelligence."  

>>> Using AI to generate structured inputs that we as humans synthesize vs. outputs that leave the creativity to an unknown artificial third party. 

⌛️ A "future of work" vision where we understand how data becomes information, how that information becomes knowledge, how that knowledge becomes insight, how that insight gets leveraged to make decisions and then how to effectively put AI on top of that to fully leverage what makes the company unique. 

⌛️ There are a series of continuums:

>>> Data awareness: From data aware to data led.

>>> Organizational: From data "laying everywhere" to organized digital mastery.

>>> Enablement: From being an Analyzer to an Orchestrator removing silos and creating the organizational structure of tomorrow

"You have to be a synthesizer of all this information and AI can help you, but if you cannot synthesize this stuff across marketing operations, training, sales, customers, let's not forget, then you're not going to be an Orchestrator."

Please click 👇🏻, subscribe 📲, listen 🎧 ...and 🎙️ join the conversation! 

ORCHESTRATE Sales!

Erich

#RevenueEngine #DigitalTransformation

#AICuriousHumanEnthusiast

#RevenueEnablement

Mentioned in this episode:

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Erich Starrett: 00:00:00

Hello and welcome to inside sales enablement.

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: 00:00:03

Season three, enablement

history today, Dr.

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: 00:00:06

Brian Lambert is rejoining

me in the orchestrates sales

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studios for part two of two.

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He is a co-founder of

orchestrate sales.com.

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One of the original hundred-ish four

founders of the sales enablement society.

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And it was cohost of inside sales

enablement, seasons one and two.

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And now back to season three.

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Part two of two with Dr.

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Brian Lambert

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. .

So let's shift gears to this simple pivot.

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That's also complex, of course,

from sales enablement society to

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revenue enablement society, right?

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And even in and around that same

time, you had both Gartner and

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Forrester shifting more towards

revenue over sales enablement.

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There's also a trend from sales

ops to rev ops from chief sales

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officer to chief revenue officer.

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What are your thoughts on that move

and what does what is the difference

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to you between sales enablement

and revenue enablement and what is

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the relationship between the two?

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Or is does only one stand alone?

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Brian Lambert: Yeah, I'm definitely in

the sales enablement space of the two,

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obviously with my history and also, Scott

and I had a lot of discussions about that.

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And, I definitely fall on to

his side of the camp, which is

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revenue as a term sounds cool.

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But when you look at what revenue means,

it's outside of sales conversations.

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It has to do with really,

quote unquote, channels of

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distribution and revenue streams.

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And that's where I really have a

problem with revenue enablement

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because I don't see sales enablement

people and sales enablement teams

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impacting the sales conversation.

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Revenue stream.

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And now they're going to take on the

revenue streams, plural, which is

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really, if you think about it it's

direct selling, which is salespeople.

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It's also indirect it's channels, it's

partners, it's, there's a huge revenue

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stream cloud called, cloud marketplace.

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Where a lot of technology gets

sold and, AWS is marketplace.

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Are you going to take

that on and enable that?

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Are you enabled?

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What are you enabling?

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So it sounds cool, but when you think

about it, it's all the revenue streams

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is really the definition of revenue

and, there's an sec regulation.

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And policy around revenue recognition

and all that other stuff, you end

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up in a finance space that most

people are ill equipped for and

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you're in a strategy space that

most people are ill equipped for.

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To me it's going to it's going

to accelerate the hyperbole and

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it's going to accelerate the, the

inflation of perception and that

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will make the bubble pop sooner.

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In my view because we were, we're not

equipped as a profession to do that.

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Look, as somebody who kind of sits

in marketing right now, they're

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there while I don't but I moved over.

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Marketing in general is way more rigorous

than sales and sales enablement is one

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of those functions that's not really

rigorous compared to their marketing

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peers, compared to their operations peers.

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Sales enablement's more

of the organic function.

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And I just don't ever see an organic

function becoming the revenue stream

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enablement group when they can't even

agree on what is sales enablement..

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I have a hard time believing that

all of a sudden everything's going

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to gel because I've been on the front

lines of getting people to gel for 20

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years and it just isn't panning out.

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Erich Starrett: yeah.

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And you have empathy for, as we started

out with all of those different functions

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and roles you've been in those boots.

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Brian Lambert: And yeah, and I think

there's, when you look at the discipline

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and the rigor, the precision, the

metrics, I think it's really coming down

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to a lot of where's the data and do you

have data to back up what you're doing?

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And most enablement people

don't realize that they're.

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They're pretty much outgunned

by a lot, every other function

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from a data perspective.

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And there, and other functions

are very rigorous around the

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data that they're collecting.

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Erich Starrett: So if I may challenge

you I understand where both you

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and Scott are going when you really

take a very literal, like academic,

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let's look at the word revenue.

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But when I'm interacting with

folks and ask, the everyday

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enabler what does it mean to you?

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What's the difference

between sales and revenue?

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It's oh it just means that

we're picking up partners.

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We're picking up customer service

and we're enabling them as well.

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So through that lens, what I like about

that is if you get away from, you're

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absolutely correct for the folks who

go, Oh, revenue, if you take it, if you

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really look at it, that's not what they're

doing and there's not the capacity for

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it, but if what is actually happening,

whatever you label it is enabling is

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working to expand to better serve.

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And provide value to metrics based

assumed, and trackable to encompass

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partners, which is a soapbox I've been

on to better encompass managers, which is

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I, you and I were completing each other's

sentences on that a long time ago, but

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managers of sales, as well as managers of

customer service and partnership managers,

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and to have a more cross functional.

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Orchestration, essentially, hopefully,

ultimately that goes beyond just sales.

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I like that, and it feels to me

like it's trending more towards

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And elevated future for enablement.

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Brian Lambert: Sure.

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And my advice would be,

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look at revenue from an

income statement perspective.

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So get in your company's 10k, look at

its reporting if you're publicly traded,

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look at how the beans are counted,

make sure you're comfortable with the

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revenue streams of your organization

how profitable are you how much income

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are you, profit are you generating,

where's your income coming from, what's

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your largest and most profitable.

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Area of the business.

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All of those questions

you should be asking.

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Not just taking on a function.

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For example, I was talking to somebody

with a sales name and title and I

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said, Hey, is your company profitable?

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Oh, yeah, we're super

profitable, blah, blah, blah.

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I was like, oh, that's funny.

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I looked at it.

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You guys are losing, 300 million a year.

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Is that profitable to you?

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They just don't know.

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So I would just advise people if you're

taking on This type of role and these

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are the impacts that you want to have.

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You've got to get into the business.

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And that's my point

from the very beginning

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if you don't understand the numbers and

you're not empathetic to salespeople and

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you carry that forward to this idea of

revenue enablement, then you're not going

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to be in the numbers and you're not going

to care about the revenue because you

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don't understand how the actual revenue.

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Works.

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Erich Starrett: Got it.

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Brian Lambert: So before you take

that word should mean something

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to you, just like sales did.

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So I just saw in both of those areas

that the business acumen wasn't there,

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like you would find in other functions.

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And I would encourage, Revenue enablers

or sales enablers to, to definitely

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understand how the money works and figure

out what your accountability is in that,

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um, you should know when people are

leaving the company and why, and

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if they're getting fired for quote

unquote revenue performance, you

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should not look the other way that's

you should call them and hit them on

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LinkedIn and you should apologize,

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Erich Starrett: learn from it.

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Brian Lambert: I've done that.

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I have reached out to managers

and reps who have been fired.

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And I said, Hey I let you down.

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I feel like I didn't do enough to

help you because if I did, then

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you'd still be here and that's on me.

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Erich Starrett: I love

that accountability.

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That is such a shining example of it.

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Brian, what a great best practice.

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So Brian, I'm all about solutions.

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I know you are too,

and all about strategy.

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It sounds to me like through

the course of this conversation,

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there's a huge opportunity for

sales enablement professionals

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to embrace this idea of revenue.

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And have this stake in the ground

of how profitable is my company?

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What are the numbers that

underlie all of that?

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And this is a conversation I've

had just in the last four or five

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months with Hilary Headlee actually

who is, when I think of rev ops,

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she is my global go to person.

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And she's put out some really I

think compelling frameworks around

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RevOps recently that I think sales

enablement could sit on top of.

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And where I'm going with that is what

if starting with reaching out to your

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RevOps counterpart and helping them.

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Or what working with them in tandem

to maybe create a partnership of,

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Hey, I really want to break

down the wall and learn about

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revenue, your revenue operations.

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How can we work together so that I'm

taking your baseline, what you're

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looking at and how you're integrating

and aligning with the C suite.

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And can we work together and partner?

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And if you were me, how would you build

the enablement programs , do you see

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opportunity there as maybe a path forward?

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Brian Lambert: Yeah.

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Ultimately, if sales productivity is

important, , to drive revenue or to drive

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sales, transactions, et cetera, then to me

there's natural fits all over the place.

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One of those is definitely revenue

operations, because to me, Okay.

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If you look at productivity, what you

could end up with is a relationship

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like what you're articulating

where sales enablement or revenue

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enablement or whatever is the idea

of helping people be skilled and

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effective at what they're doing.

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And then sales operations

is more about the process.

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And efficiency side of things and you

end up with both and that's productivity.

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And that, if you can both agree on what

number you're moving that, that could

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be a, quite a powerful combination.

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Erich Starrett: Awesome.

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Great, Brian.

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So we've talked a lot about past

and a good bit about the present.

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What about the future?

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We talked a little bit about what could be

if a couple different things were tweaked.

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I'm fiercely curious to learn more

about what you're doing through

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the lens of AI as someone who

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Has been in the shoes of sales and ops

and sales management and now marketing my

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assumption is, and by the way, if y'all

out there haven't liked and followed Dr.

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Brian Lambert, he's started a series

just in the last month or so, I believe

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that's been in and all around AI through

this vast and differentiated lens where

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he has empathy for all of these different

roles and has been keeping a finger

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on the pulse of digital transformation

and digitization in this new economy.

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So Brian, can you maybe talk about

what as the future and why you're

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personally investing so much time,

not just yourself and research, but

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in sharing that with the community?

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Brian Lambert: Yeah, sure.

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I appreciate that.

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Thought is back to the historical context,

this idea that it was organizations

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first in the siloed thinking.

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So, I believe that, and I

shared that story, those stories

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about silos are a problem.

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So if you look at the phases of

focus, just loosely at, in, in the

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view of organizations trying to

communicate and capture value, they

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started out with this lens of, the

organization is most important.

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And let's be process driven.

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And that's the siloed

view from the late: 1800

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Lately in the last 40 years or

so it's become, employee centric.

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So we had organizational centric.

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Then we went through an employee

centric piece where, employees are

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first employees first in, in that view

and along the way of an organizational

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construct and an employee construct

of putting in organizations first and

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employees first there's always this

debate of where does the customer go?

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In that view.

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I believe the customer has informed

customers informed the organizational

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view and then customers informed

the idea of employees first.

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So they've always been there hand in hand.

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When you look at the digital economy.

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What I firmly believe in now

where things are heading is we're

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going to end up in a data centric.

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Focus.

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So organizational focus is giving way to

employee centricity and employee focus.

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And over the next 50 years, what

we're going to see is a data focus,

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data centric view and paradigm.

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So what that means to me is the future.

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Is in understanding the data, everything

will be digital and digitized and ones

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and zeros are going to be flying around.

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But when you look at where things are

heading, you have to know who's creating

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what data and knowledge and information.

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Where is it and how do

you get your hands on it?

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So let's take a I as an example.

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That sounds really cool.

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And it sounds really super awesome

because you and I can go on our

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employee centric view and we can

hit, chat TPT and ask it questions.

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What should scare people?

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And what does scare leaders is.

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You can't even do that

in your own company.

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So how how would you go to your

own company and get access to all

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of that internal private data?

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And that's in a way that's secure and that

you have access to, but then how would

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you capitalize all of that intellectual

property to go create value for somebody?

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When are you just going to hit

the trillions of website pages

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and that's going to be valuable?

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What about our company?

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Why do we exist?

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And the company is there to create

some sort of value and that's all

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in your internal intranet and all

of the charts and graphs and, slides

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that everybody's been creating.

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But you can't even access

that with chat GPT.

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You've got to as a company moved to

this idea of that, that stuff matters

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because you've spent trillions of

dollars, billions of millions on it.

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And yes, there's intellectual property.

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But if you look at data less

as a byproduct of doing work.

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: 00:15:09

And as a fuel to the digital

economy, most companies are woefully

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: 00:15:15

unprepared and most roles are woefully

unprepared as we've explored here

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: 00:15:19

with this sales enablement role.

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: 00:15:21

So I think we're going to be in a

data first, digital first paradigm

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: 00:15:25

and those that understand how data.

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Becomes information, how that

information becomes knowledge, how

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: 00:15:33

that knowledge becomes insight, how

that insight gets leveraged to make

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decisions and then put AI on top

of that, that's the future of work.

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: 00:15:44

And so that's where I think enablement is

heading is almost this digital enablement

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space where you have this fusion of.

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Of artificial and human intelligence

that I call collective intelligence.

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I think we're way too much artificial

and not enough human intelligence.

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: 00:16:05

We need to have a blend of both of human

and artificial into this collective

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: 00:16:10

intelligence view that says, data is

not just a by product of doing work.

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Data is a fuel and we need human aspects

to that and that type of enablement.

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Is really at a data level.

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So how do, what data do we need

to drive the income statement?

265

: 00:16:28

What data do we need to

drive these revenue streams?

266

: 00:16:31

What data do we need to equip people with?

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And what information do

we need to give them?

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What knowledge do we need to give them?

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But it's all digitized

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AI is on top of it.

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So we move away from coordinating a

sales kickoff physically to how would

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you coordinate that in a virtual

environment without having sessions?

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For example, or how would you take

the idea of a coaching conversation

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and figure out what type of coaching

conversation you should have based

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on the data that's available to you?

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As opposed to your own, experiences,

how would you blend that with real data?

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So there's a digital first world

coming, and I think most people

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are not thinking about that from a.

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Now perspective, they're thinking,

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AI is cool, but if you don't understand

how data works in your company and how

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knowledge becomes power and how knowledge

becomes insight at a digital level, then

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I think you're going to be in a spot

where the value that you're creating is

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a bit redundant because it can be done

by super fast intelligent chat bots.

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the thing that's really fascinating to me

is, I could have a worker, , an AI worker

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that I brainstorm with on my chat GPT.

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And I can brainstorm with my AI partner

easier than I can brainstorm with the

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humans that I work with sometimes.

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Erich Starrett: Cause

they like to interrupt.

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Like I do

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Brian Lambert: no, it's not that it's it's

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Erich Starrett: part of it.

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Brian Lambert: not there's this this

human blend of, that's important.

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And the thing about a computer is

it's, it has this ability to be

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structured and logical that I like.

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So when I have it, when I ask it,

what is sales I don't get the, you

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know, this huge discussion around it.

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It is, what is sales?

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It'll say, exactly what it is.

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So it is a lot more clear than this,

than humans are on things like that.

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Erich Starrett: And if you ask it, if

the company's profitable, it's going

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to tell you exactly and bust out some

numbers that are publicly available.

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Brian Lambert: right, so then it becomes,

so this is why this is important because

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in the evolution of being organizationally

designed and then human centric.

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If we move to a digital centric world,

then it's not just a nice to have.

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There's real meaning to that.

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It doesn't not just a cliche.

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Then you start thinking about

where is the data created?

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Where is it generated?

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Where is it housed?

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How does it move around?

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How do you protect it?

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And then how do you give people

access to what they need?

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So that they can ask questions like that

to get the answers that cut to the chase.

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I chatted in you.

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The chat just now.

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What is sales?

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I got three paragraphs

back and I can move on.

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I don't end up in this

debate about what is sales.

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Erich Starrett: Perfect.

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Just plug in.

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: 00:19:41

What is sales enablement?

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We have a definition.

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We can all move on, Brian.

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Brian Lambert: Yeah.

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And that's the thing.

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That is the bits and bytes world

that we're heading towards.

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Some point, we have to agree on

things that really matter.

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So like the debate should be

in the space of how do we drive

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more profitable relationships?

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That should be a debate.

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But should we really be debating

what is sales enablement?

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Like that's where I think getting

to the digital first world

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makes a lot more sense to me.

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It's more binary, so to speak.

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: 00:20:19

Erich Starrett: Insert shameless

plug here for digital now

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: 00:20:22

conference in Chicagoland in April,

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: 00:20:26

to land the plane, Brian in fact,

one of the things that I've come this

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: 00:20:32

simple phrase, I like simple learned

that from you and this other guy.

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But that I am a a I curious human

enthusiast and what I mean by that

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is I'm fascinated by all this stuff

and I see it as a huge opportunity

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for enablement for sales to shine.

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: 00:20:52

What if we can offload all of that

administrivia to the robots to do

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those things succinctly, tightly give

us a bunch of ideas, but then make it

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our own and add that human element.

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And I'm hearing that's a large

part of what you're saying.

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And part of the reason I'm enjoying

the series is I'm looking at it through

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that lens of how can I learn from

Brian, what those things are that

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can, first of all, the mindset to help

change the way we're doing business

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in a positive way and be part of that

trend, but also to optimize my time.

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And not fear AI, but lean into

how my humanness is exactly the

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differentiator and by the way, it's

getting all the other crap out of my

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: 00:21:36

way if I can leverage it effectively.

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: 00:21:40

Brian Lambert: That's right.

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: 00:21:41

Yeah, and if you think about

it the there's two, two

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lenses of the future, I think

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on the human element, there's.

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: 00:21:50

Are you aware of the data that exists?

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: 00:21:52

That's the bare minimum and

a lot of people aren't even

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aware of what exists for data.

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: 00:21:57

And then there's, are led and informed by

data on the other end of that spectrum?

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So there's data aware to

data led on one continuum.

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: 00:22:05

And then on the other continuum,

there's the organizational view.

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And that's, how how are

you leveraging data?

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So are you able, are you just

understanding what's there or

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are you actually driving some

level of mastery and changing the

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world around you because of it?

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And when you look at that, you need

to be very data driven data led, but

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you also need to be able to wield it.

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: 00:22:29

And I think that's the biggest challenge

I've had with enablement is we're aware

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that we have data laying around and we're

aware that, people that data is important.

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: 00:22:39

Just like we're aware that we're

in a digital economy and we're

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aware that, we all have iPhones.

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The challenge is, okay how

do you wield that awareness?

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And I think you have to go

on a journey of maturity.

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: 00:22:50

You have to mature your digital literacy.

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: 00:22:53

You have to become more of a digital

master, not just digitally aware.

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: 00:22:58

And then your organization also has

to view data and information as an

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asset, not as a waste by product.

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: 00:23:07

I think that's how most companies view it

is the stuff we create along the way that

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: 00:23:12

we slough off as we're doing business.

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: 00:23:14

It's actually quite the opposite.

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: 00:23:16

That's where all of your value is

and your competitive advantage.

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: 00:23:19

That maturity has to get there too.

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: 00:23:21

So there's a lot of room to be more

data led and more of a data master,

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: 00:23:28

if you will, that, that really can

differentiate you in the digital economy.

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: 00:23:33

Erich Starrett: Brian awesome insights.

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: 00:23:36

As we wrap up and land this

thing, what parting shot would

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: 00:23:41

you share with the audience?

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: 00:23:43

We love a call to action and

something where folks can decide if

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: 00:23:48

they want to go from what to what

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: 00:23:51

and two things really.

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: 00:23:52

And you started to get into one of them.

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: 00:23:55

What is the opportunity?

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: 00:23:59

Or is there one if the listening

audience really does want to elevate

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: 00:24:03

enablement and have an enablement future?

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: 00:24:06

What does that look like?

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: 00:24:08

And the subset is what is that one

thing other than and follow Dr.

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: 00:24:13

Brian Lambert and read his articles.

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: 00:24:15

That is an actionable thing

that enablement or anyone in the

400

: 00:24:20

listening audience can really

sink their teeth into to take

401

: 00:24:25

advantage of this powerful new tool.

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: 00:24:28

Brian Lambert: I think the

parting thing I would give is.

403

: 00:24:31

If in the world of from what to

what, there's really , two things.

404

: 00:24:36

One is the idea of that you move from

being data aware to being data led,

405

: 00:24:42

and, probably five phases to that.

406

: 00:24:45

So I think most people are data aware,

they're aware of the data exists.

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: 00:24:49

But are you able to wield

that data so that you have, I

408

: 00:24:52

think that's one continuum and

that's one from what to what.

409

: 00:24:57

The other from what to what is thinking

about your role and I would move from

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: 00:25:03

this org chart view and free your

mind kind of thing and unplug from

411

: 00:25:07

matrix and think about your role as.

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: 00:25:11

An analyst on one end where you analyze

things to an orchestrator on the other.

413

: 00:25:17

Orchestrator is not just a label.

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: 00:25:19

It's a new role in the digital

economy that, it is the role of

415

: 00:25:26

orchestrators is to create the

organizational structures of tomorrow.

416

: 00:25:30

When you remove silos,

orchestrators are more valuable.

417

: 00:25:35

Most people are analysts, they analyze

things and then but orchestrators

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: 00:25:40

are, you're creating value through

the interconnected networks and,

419

: 00:25:44

getting, how you get things done

is really manifest in the actions

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: 00:25:48

you take and the results you get.

421

: 00:25:51

That's the other one is moved from

being an analyzer to an orchestrator.

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: 00:25:56

And one way to look at that is, what

are you using your chat GPT for?

423

: 00:26:01

A lot of people that first got into it.

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: 00:26:04

I know I did was I was trying to

get it to produce things for me.

425

: 00:26:08

But a weekend I'm like, I'm not gonna,

why would I outsource my creativity?

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: 00:26:13

Why would I outsource my outputs to

this thing that I don't even know who

427

: 00:26:18

owns this thing, this is early on.

428

: 00:26:20

Why don't I turn it around and use.

429

: 00:26:23

The AI as a way to give me inputs.

430

: 00:26:27

So instead of generating outputs for me

and copying, pasting them, let me use

431

: 00:26:32

it as a way to get structured inputs

to my thinking so I can synthesize.

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: 00:26:36

Being a synthesis is different

than being in an analyst.

433

: 00:26:40

So on the continuum of being an

orchestrator, you have to be a synthesis

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: 00:26:44

first, you have to be a synthesizer of

all this information and AI can help you,

435

: 00:26:48

but if you cannot synthesize this stuff

across marketing operations, training,

436

: 00:26:54

sales, customers, let's not forget, then

you're not going to be an orchestrator.

437

: 00:26:59

So I think that's the, from what

to what on that is your role.

438

: 00:27:03

Moving from analysts to, maybe

integrator event planner type person

439

: 00:27:08

to synthesis of synthesizing across

all these functions what needs to

440

: 00:27:13

happen and then orchestrating that.

441

: 00:27:16

Erich Starrett: From analysiss as a

individual to synthesis as a cross

442

: 00:27:22

functional business a business.

443

: 00:27:26

Brian Lambert: Yeah.

444

: 00:27:26

And then the final piece is

how you're able to wield that

445

: 00:27:29

as an orchestrator, right?

446

: 00:27:31

Like orchestrator is the, it's the

future to me when you remove silos that's

447

: 00:27:36

what I've tried to, because then you,

you end up orchestrating an ecosystem.

448

: 00:27:42

Erich Starrett: I'll let

the mic drop on that one.

449

: 00:27:43

Dr.

450

: 00:27:44

Brian Lambert.

451

: 00:27:45

Thank you for being here.

452

: 00:27:46

Thanks for all that you continue to do.

453

: 00:27:48

And again, folks like and follow and

gain wisdom and put it into action.

454

: 00:27:54

Go from what to what, don't just

listen and sit on your butt.

455

: 00:27:59

Brian Lambert: Thanks so much.

456

: 00:27:59

Thanks, everybody.

457

: 00:28:01

Erich Starrett: Thanks, Brian.