Ally talks with Cindy and Eliza Farina. Eliza is a 7th grader who says in the height of the pandemic, her screen time reached as high as 16 hours a day. How accurate that is, mom Cindy doesn't know, but says shutting down devices can get ugly. With light at the end of the pandemic tunnel, how do we get our kids back from the clutches of screens? Penn State Psychologist Meghan Owenz says S.P.O.I.L. them. She maps out how socializing, play, outside time, independent work and literacy can help reverse the negative effects of devices.

Ally: I want to welcome 12-year-old Eliza Farina and her mom, Cindy. Hey, guys.

Eliza: Hello.

Cindy: Hi.

Ally: All right, Eliza, tell us a little bit about yourself. Oh, I hear your dog penny in the background. So we'll say hi to Penny too.

Cindy: Yeah, she says hi.

Ally: (laughter) All right. Eliza, tell us a little bit about yourself where you go to school, what grade you’re in, and what's your favorite thing to do on your phone?

Eliza: I go to a Hingham Middle School. I'm in seventh grade. And I like to watch TikTok on

my phone.

Ally: Oh yeah, tik tok kills me. Alright, so Eliza map out a typical school day. What are you doing on your phone? And when?

Eliza: Well usually I don't have my phone, but sometimes, like, I'll sneak it in like, behind the computer. But usually my mom has it. And I'm never on it because it's school so I can't be on it. And then they're the days where I'm in school so obviously I'm not using it because the teacher could take it for.

Cindy: (speaking over Eliza) But you do take it to school with you.

Eliza: But I don't really use my phone during the day other other than after school ends.

Ally: Okay, so how much would you say you're on it a day?

Eliza: Well I have screen time and it tracks my screen time and I think it's like eight hours which is not the best (laughing).

Ally: You might want to jiggle those tonight. (laughing)

Eliza: It has definitely gotten lower since school started. In the summer it was terrible. It was like 16 hours.

Ally: Yeah. (laughing)

Eliza: But now I think it's now two hours. I'm not sure.

Ally: Your mom is rapidly revoking her consent for this interview. (laughing) So what are you doing on it?

Eliza: I'm mainly just watching Tik Tok and playing games. Using social media and stuff.

Ally: Okay, so how much would you say, I know you had a phone before the pandemic, so how much would you say your screen time changed when COVID came?

Eliza: Drastically. Actually before that I only had an iPad and I wasn't that into screens… until Covid hit. Then I started getting really into screens, so it definitely changed a lot. I'm pretty sure I was on it more which makes sense because I couldn't see anybody else so I would FaceTime people and Snapchat and all that stuff.

Ally: Yeah. So on that end, what does it give to you? What do you get out of screen time?

Eliza: Well I get to socialize in different ways. But then also, it’s not good for my health. I know that. I tried to cut back on the screen time but it's hard because there's nothing else to do.

Ally: Yeah, It's interesting. When you said, “I know it's not good for my health,” what do you mean?

Eliza: Well it's not good for your brain to be on screens for too long. So sometimes I get off of it and draw or play with toys or watch a movie with my family, but usually I'm on my screen. And I know my brain isn't getting benefits from that.

Ally: Describe that for me. When you feel like you've had too much or you've been on there too much.

Eliza: When my mom says, “okay, it's time to put your screen away” and I scream at her.

Ally: Why do you think you're screaming?

Eliza: Because I get to the point where I want to be on it so much that when it gets taken away I get mad.

Ally: Yeah. I want to come back to that. But before your mom steps in, does it ever feel bad?

Eliza: Not really.

Ally: (laughing) So intellectually you know it's bad for you, but it doesn't feel bad.

Eliza: Mhm.

Ally: Okay, so it only gets bad when mom comes in?

Eliza: Yeah or if I have a problem with one of my friends if like they got in a fight or something. Then I get mad.

Ally: Yeah. Alright so Cindy, Boston Children's just put out a new study on pandemic screen use and 65% of the parents surveyed said their kids screen time went up, so it's pretty understandable during the pandemic. More than a third of parents said screen time was causing more severe arguments than before COVID, usually over how much time the kids were on it. What does that look like in your house?

Cindy: I think that's fair. I mean I would say the arguments over the screen time have definitely gone up. But you have to consider also that we're all shoved in this house all day long, just the three of us. So it's not like there's anything else to do but have conflict. Just because you're all together all the time doesn't mean you're having sunny roses all the time. It means you're also in each other's space constantly. And so it doesn't help the whole picture that we're all kind of captive here. Quite frankly, I know everybody thinks they're the most captive people, but I sometimes don't leave the house for three to four days at all, even go outside. So there's that and I think that might be part of why it's so dramatic that the arguments have gone up.

Ally: Yeah. I've read a Facebook post of yours with delight, (laughing), because it's like, “oh my people!” How would you describe Eliza's changing use from pre pandemic to during?

Cindy: She's absolutely right. She had mostly used an iPad before the pandemic. We had sort of had in our mind that we were going to give her a phone last year for her birthday. We ended up giving it to her a little ahead of time because the pandemic shut everything down and in my mind it's sort of twofold. Number one, for me I really can't have her running around talking to me when I'm working from home all day. I typically have 8 to 10 meetings per day so I'm on the phone all. day. long. And on zoom, so I'm on camera. So you know, when she gets done with school at 2:30 I'm not necessarily free to hang out with her. So I also needed her to have something else to do. And honestly, the phone gave her a lot of different options. She could play games, she could FaceTime with people, that kind of thing. The biggest thing really, and the thing I didn't really think about when we did it, was FaceTime and the socializing that she's been able to do. What she typically does is put FaceTime on and then they play a game. So she's on literally two devices, the FaceTime open and she's saying, “go get this thing,” you know? It's typically Roblox that they're on saying, “go get this thing, go get that thing.” So that part is kind of, it's fun for her, she has the opportunity to socialize and play games at the same time. So it's interactive which is great, but as she said, her exercise level has gone down quite a bit. The trampoline is less exciting if you have friends you can talk with on your phone.

Ally: Yeah, we're not jumping with a friend.

Cindy: Yeah.

Ally: Well, to that end, there is some good news. As you'll hear with our next guest, screen time can be good for kids too. In the Children's Hospital study, 45% of parents said it was helpful for their children's mental health and that's mostly because of connecting to friends. Eliza, what's that been like for you? At least having that lifeline to friends, particularly in the early days, when it was locked down?

Eliza: Well to have something to be able to talk to them without having to be with masks and six feet apart is good because it makes us closer in some way. When we see each other again, it's like we're gonna be like we're strangers. We haven't seen each other in so long.

Ally: Yeah.

Cindy: Yeah, it's also opened up who she's friends with. She has the opportunity to hang out with people in those Hangouts. I'm not sure what they are, Zooms or FaceTime, but she has the opportunity to hang out with people she doesn't know that well.

Ally: Yeah.

Cindy: Whereas you know, when you're having playdates you only really invite people over that you know. This way, she's had an opportunity to sort of get to know a lot of other people that she wouldn't invite over and quite frankly, some of them are boys, which is kind of cool. And it's a safe space for her to get to know some of these boys that she doesn't really interact with on a playdate.

Eliza: Not just boys!

Cindy: I know, not just boys.

Ally: (laughing) Yeah, oh my god Mom!

Cindy: But she's actually met some friends from Cohasset that she'd never met before. One of them actually currently lives in California so there's an expansion here. It's kind of like a pen-pal relationship, but with the ability to have that back and forth which I think is nice.

Ally: Would you agree with that Eliza?

Eliza: Yes.

Ally: That's great. Cindy, I'm gonna jump around a little bit because I loved your Facebook, it was so funny. So when the survey talks about screen time, causing more severe arguments than it did before, describe what it's like when you want to shut down screen time.

Cindy: Yeah, there is really sort of two big times. One is when she's taking a break after school, and we let her get on and check her snapchats or whatever those kids do. And then the second time, and that's a struggle sometimes, because you know the problem with screen time is it just breeds on itself. You know, you check one message and there's another message behind it, there's another Tik Tok behind that, and you know, something else related to it. It just gets longer and longer. There's never any end. It's never like, “let me just finish this game,” it’s “let me just talk to 900 more people and watch 900 more Tik Toks.” So that's the first time. The second time is dinner time. You know, “put it down, we're hanging out, we're having dinner.” Honestly, all of us are tired by that time of day so the conversation is not necessarily hopping so the tendency is to bring your phone back up again. And you know, I think one of the things that you're referring to about the Facebook post is, I end up screaming and grabbing the phone away. Like I said, “yank and yell loudly, gesticulate wildly, and then hide it somewhere where I'm not sure I'll find it again.” (laughing) Which is part of the excitement of the whole thing! And I do that sort of unpredictably so that keeps her on her toes.

Ally: Yeah! I know, I say I feel like a shrew. Like, “Okay, alright, that's it!” And you know my kids use the trick of “come get me where my time's up!” And you know, they're not dumb! I get sucked into something and now it's 45, 57 hours later and then I'm mad.

Cindy: We've also set Alexa reminders. So around the house, you'll hear “it's 2:30, time to hand in your phone and get back to your homework.” It goes from everywhere, which is nice to have, but she's learned to ignore Alexa.

Ally: You know, it's interesting, because the kids are going back a little bit more now, and then a little bit more soon, and then a lot more at the end of April. Eliza, do you think that transition back to school full time is going to be tricky? Or do you think you're ready to give up the screen time?

Eliza: Well, it's hard because seeing the people that we haven't seen for a while will be interested because we have to get used to them again and then remember what it's like to be around a bunch of people. And especially with masks and everything and having to stay apart. It's harder because the hallways are going to get way more crammed and everybody's gonna be running around places. I feel like it does work in some way, but it also doesn't.

Ally: Do you think it'd be hard to give up your phone for those stretches? I mean, do you think you'll come home from school like, freaky?

Eliza: Sure, yeah. Definitely when I come home I’ll want to get right on my phone and play games.

Cindy: I think she's putting in a request now! I can hear it, “I need 30 minutes when I get home.” I can see what's happening here.

Ally: Cindy, what are you worried about?

Cindy: With going back to school?

Ally: In terms of technology. Or are you like me? For me I’m like, “yes, yes, queen!” (laughing) Because you know they can't be on their phone in school and they can have somebody else yelling at them.

Cindy: That's right. And to be clear, she does take her phone to school with her so that we can tell her where we are when we pick her up. So she does actually have it, but she doesn't use it in classes for obvious reasons.

Ally: Yeah. I mean I can't help but wonder if that will be like detox, you know, they had access to their phone limited during the school day. But if, “well we're on asynchronous, can I FaceTime with Bella while we do our homework?” And I'm such a sucker, I say yes.

Eliza: That’s like my dad!

Cindy: Dad's a sucker. Oh, wow, he just got totally put under the bus there! (laughing)

Eliza: No, we love him though!

Cindy: We do. Everybody loves a sucker. I'm looking forward to her having more in person interaction, because I think all of us could use it. And I'm not worried about her having her phone less, but I'm also not worried about her coming home and being dying for her phone. Because I think that that interpersonal interaction that she'll have during the day, she'll be tired, too, and so some of it's supplementing what she already does on her phone. So I think I'm not sure she'll miss her phone a ton. And I also think we're going to continue with, when it's time to do your homework, you got to put away all your devices and do your homework. I don't think the homework with someone on FaceTime works that well.

Ally: (laughing) Stop criticizing me! What Eliza?

Eliza: I said yes it does! It works.

Cindy: Maybe it works for your kids Ally. I'm not sure it works for mine! (laughing)

Ally: I don't think so. It's interesting, because the next person I have on the podcast is this psychologist and she talks about as parents, not using the negative consequences of the phone like, “get off, it's frying your brain! It’s doing this, it’s doing that, you don't do anything anymore!” And more to “hey, what do you miss about not being in school? Okay, you miss friends? Well, then why don't we schedule a firepit Friday? Wouldn't that be a lot more fun than being on your phone?” You know it's all about positive reinforcement, so to speak. And I told her, “I'm taking everything but I want you to know, I don't believe you.”

Cindy: I'd like to see her try that in practice, actually, if she could come over anytime we can create a firepit and she could show us how that positive reinforcement works.

Ally: That's awesome. All right. Well, thank you both very much.

Cindy: Thank you, Ally!

Ally: Alright, have fun in school, Eliza. And Cindy, Enjoy your downtime.

Cindy: Thank you so much. (laughing) I can’t wait.

Ally Donnelly: I want to bring in my next guest, Megan Owenz. She's a psychologist, assistant teaching professor at Penn State, and the author of a new book called Spoiled Right: Delaying Screens and Giving Children What They Really Need. Meghan Owenz, welcome.

Meghan Owenz: Thank you so much for having me, Ally.

Ally: Thank you. You wrote an article recently for the news site, “The Conversation” and it really caught my eye. Here's the headline, it says, “kids spending too much time staring at screens? Focus on positive goals to get them moving and reading and talking.” So, I want to lay out what's been happening at my house and get your free analysis. So when the pandemic hit, I was Awesome Mom, I gave my kids all sorts of cool activities to do- go outside take pictures of three things that speak to you and nature, read on the hammock, sit at the mirror and draw a self-portrait… and then COVID got worse and home time dragged on. Everywhere I turned experts were saying “don't worry about screen time, do what you have to do to survive.” And I did big time. So now I feel like I have little tech junkies that I need to reprogram and we're fighting. There's crying, cajoling, deal brokering, it's bad. And now one's already back in school, and the other will soon be. And I'm like, “oh no.” So what do I do to prepare for this new screen time kind-of-free-er time hopefully?

Owenz: Yeah, well, congratulations, that they're back, or heading back, to school. That's great news and I'm excited to see all kids have the opportunity to get back to face-to-face learning soon. Many kids have a little bit of a pandemic-induced screen habit that needs, you know, maybe a little work. I have my grounding in goal science and so trying to cut screen time, limiting screen time, avoiding screen time, all together, these are all what we call negative goals, things that we're trying to get away from. A lot of people have negative goals related to eating, they want to avoid, you know, high-fat food or carbs, or whatever it might be. Negative goals are associated with negative affect, meaning bad mood, reduced goal persistence, and they rely on our limited willpower. So the opposite is positive goals. Those are things we want to move towards things we want to be more of or do more of. Research shows that if we have positive goals, we may be more successful with them. So one of my favorite studies is when they took parents with one obese adult in the family, and they either gave them an avoidance goal and a diet plan associated with cutting high fat, high sugar foods, or they gave them a positive goal, increased fruit and vegetable intake, and they didn't talk to them about high fat, high sugar foods at all. A year later, the families that have lost more weight were those with the positive goal and they had cut the high fat high sugar foods, but it had just happened incidentally, because they were kind of filled up with the fiber and the nutritiousness of the fruits and the vegetables. So I think we can have a parallel thing happen with screen time. We can choose to fight the screen time and have all these battles and all these negotiations or we can choose to try to fill our kids day with the things that are really good for them and encourage them in that conversation and watch the screen time incidentally reduce well,

Ally: Well so let me ask you one thing- so by giving in and you know my kids are just like “Roblox, Roblox, Roblox,” it's crazy. Have I done lasting damage?

Owenz: I want to assure parents that it's very unlikely you've done any kind of lasting damage. So the expert advice during the pandemic was trying to understand where parents were at, trying to work from home, kids were at home, it was difficult for kids to socialize with one another. Research shows that even with a one week break from screens, that children's social skills improve, that their sleep improves. So it's okay to say, “hey, you know what, the screen time is a little higher than we typically had during the pandemic.” But now things are looking hopeful, and it's getting warmer outside, and you're going back to school, and so we're going to reel in the screen time a little bit. But we're going to do it by filling our day with all those things that you weren't able to do during the pandemic and you weren't able to do during the winter, we're going to try and do more of the things we'd love.

Ally: Okay, so I want to go through those things but I also want to prime it, maybe this is a journalist in me, with my inner Negative-Nelly. So I love the advice you're about to give, but I want to put it out there right now, because my friends and I, we are all in the same boat, we're trying to get stuff done. And so when someone says, “read to your child for half an hour” I’m like “what?! Read to my child?! No, that's what Roblox is for!” (laughing) like I’m really in a bad place. And I don't even have a job! I'm just podcasting. So I want to preface whatever you say with knowledge that I am doubting you.

Owenz: Okay, good, because I think that most people are. So that's okay. One, I would say that that doubt comes from a place of the screen time creating a problem that only the screen time can solve. They're very smart marketing professionals creating these applications in these games. So when a kid is bored, like they were a lot during the pandemic, and they pick up something like Roblox or Youtube Kids, or whatever it might be that they're using to entertain their time, then they're less likely to be able to deal with that boredom and figure things out later on and they really fight and need the screen, and they bug us if they don't have it. So it creates this kind of compulsion loop of needing the screen to solve their negative emotion, boredom, or frustration, and the parent needing the screen to get anything done.

Ally: Yeah.

Owenz: Now, when we limit screens, and we encourage children into these five activities that we'll talk about in a second, they start to be able to tolerate those negative emotions and learn to direct their day a little bit better. So after a period of time of doing this you'll find that maybe they bother you more in the beginning for the first couple days and then they sort of learn, that limit is there. I have found some things that I'm interested in and they start to be better at entertaining themselves. This is a normal developmental process that kids are better at entertaining themselves over time.

Ally: Okay, so let's talk Middle School, because I think Elementary is one thing and my youngest is more pliable to my suggestions about what to do like, “read for 15 minutes, okay?” My middle schooler pushes back a bit more. It's under the auspices of she says she wants to connect to her friends but you know, it ends up being Tik Tok, though thank god she’s given that up, but she wants to be on Roblox. She wants to be on these games and isn't great at self-directing. And I pity the poor teachers that are going to have these kids in their classrooms and be like, “what, I can't constantly be texting with my friend during school. What is this?”

Owenz: Yeah. So first of all, shout out to all the middle schoolers out there because they're a little bit right. Research does show this sort of U-shaped curve with screen time and middle schoolers and teenagers, that if they have no screen time whatsoever, it's associated with poor mental health. Because of what she's talking about, that she needs some she needs to connect with her friends. If they have a moderate amount, best mental health, and then if they have too much, that's the other side of the U and again, we see a negative association with mental health.

Ally: And what is that? How do you define too much?

Owenz: So that's like a really tricky question that I'm hesitant to answer but I will say that most research studies find a tipping point somewhere in between one and three hours per day.

Ally: That one hours too much?

Owenz: Yes, but sometimes three hours is too much. Most research studies will say for teens, recreational-based screen time, somewhere around two hours. But now I'm really hesitant to answer that question for a really good reason- because it really depends on what they're doing on the screen, right?

Ally: Yeah, yeah.

Owenz: So if she's genuinely texting with one friend, and she's doing that, and they're having an in depth conversation, and you're like, “oh, the one hour is up, let me take the phone!” that's really different than if she mindlessly scrolling, watching YouTube videos, those sorts of things. So we do have to, especially with our middle schoolers and teens, look at what it is that they're doing on there.

Ally: Yeah, I tend not to count, sometimes if she's facetiming, or baking with their buddies, or any of that over technology, because to me, that doesn't count. It's when we almost lose time that I get worried, you know, that I get sucked into a project and then I come back 45 minutes later or I come back two hours later, or whatever it is. So how do we start to move our kids away from screens?

Owenz: So there's two reasons why we might think we see some of these negative associations with screens. One is what we were just talking about: the content. So if the content is developmentally inappropriate, if it's violent, if it's too fast paced, constant screen shifting, if it's making a teen feel bad about their body image, you know, then that's the problem. And all of our advice has been around content- look up the programs, institute child controls, play or watch with them. That's all about content. But you could do that all day long and still have a problem, because some of the negative associations are due to displacement, which means as your kids spend more time on a screen, they're spending less time doing those things that we have known for decades, are really critically important for emotional and physical health for kids. So it's not so much the screen time that is causing these negative associations, but it's the loss of these other activities. Now, that might be challenging as a parent, because you have to orient not only to what your kid is doing, but also to what they're not doing, which you don't know what that is unless the screen is there. But the positive thing about it is it gives us one of those positive goals, it gives us something to move towards. So what I talked about in the book is all the research for these five activities, it's this S.P.O.I.L system is the acronym that we use, S stands for social, P stands for play, O stands for outdoor, I stands for independent work like chores, and L stands for literacy. And here's the thing, all five of these activities, when you read the research on them, you will immediately want to increase the amount of time your child is spent doing them, because there are just so many positive outcomes. And most of them are the opposite of the negative outcomes we see associated with screens.

Ally: Like what?

Owenz: Well, for example, with screens, we see problems with sleep, kids who have excessive recreational screen time are sleeping less, they're going to bed later, they have lower sleep quality. We also see problems associated with attention, difficulty maintaining sustained attention after using a screen for a period of time. Going outdoors, for example, is associated with attention restoration, children are able to pay attention better after they've been outside, it's associated with improved sleep, it's associated with increased physical activity. So it's literally the opposite. And so you could kind of say, “I'm going to ignore the research on screens or the experts on screens and I'm just going to make sure that my kid has these five things in their day, because they are going to counteract some of those negative effects of screen time.”

Ally: Okay so again, going to the older versus middle, I want to say one thing about content that I meant to mention. I was one of those parents that was very strict about technology and then during the pandemic gave up more. One of my kids who is more prone to some level of anxiousness, would come to me with these questions like, “what's abortion? what does it mean when someone kills themselves? what is child abuse?” And I'm like, “Oh my God” and this is all Tik Tok, that thank goodness she’s moved away from, but it's these huge things that my sweet little 12 year old is asking me about and it really does weigh on me.

Owenz: I'm so glad you said that Ally, because I don't mean to say that content doesn't matter because absolutely it matters. We have to be paying attention to it. If there's a particular app like that, where a lot of problematic content is coming out, then we do want to limit it. So content matters, but habit matters, too. Right? When parents are getting displaced?

Ally: Yeah. Okay, so I want to go back to your S.P.O.I.L. So “social activities, play, outdoors, independent work, literacy.” I'd love to go through those a little bit more. In terms of the older kids, especially middle schoolers who I worry about the most, probably middle and high school, right? Because they're facing the most kind of social issues and other pressures that elementary school kids probably aren't quite facing now. If I tell my nine year old to go outside and play, she'll go outside and play. If I tell my 12 year old to go outside and play she’s like, “ugh whatever!” Even if it's getting her to throw the ball for the dog is like this monumental battle. So what's your advice there?

Owenz: I would say two things. One, let's loop them into the conversation. I think with younger kids, it is easier for us to kind of decide and bring them along with these activities. For older kids though, they hopefully have some interests, right? So the conversation of sitting down and saying, “hey, we developed a little bit of some pandemic habits that weren't great for us.” Those could be anything, staying up too late or whatever. And now, we want to make sure that we're increasing time spent and things that we like to do that are meaningful for us. So what are the things that you like to do that you haven't been able to do? What are the things that are really meaningful for you, what sort of things make you feel good? And decide on it as a family and then create some family goals around it. Then they still may hem and haw when it's time to go because that is their job! (laughing) That's what middle schoolers and teenagers do and it's our job as the parents to say, “no, I know, you're really gonna feel better after we do this so let's go on this walk together” or whatever it is that they have said they really want to do and the degree to which you can support it and join with them and maybe even do the extra legwork. If a middle schooler tells you, “I miss being with my friends.” Can you say “alright well we'll have a fire pit on Friday night and sit far apart with distance and masks.” That's what's great about middle schoolers and teens is they're willing to sit and talk! So they can do some socially distant mask activities that some of the little kids struggle with more.

Ally: Yeah, that's a great idea. That's great. Okay, so you talk about social activity, looping in friends and pushing them to do some things outdoors and play… but independent work, do tell.

Owenz:

So you're telling me that your middle schooler isn't going to say “what I'd like to do more of mom? Chores.” (laughing)

Ally: (laughing) No!

Owenz: I know, neither do the little kids. Although my two still do fight over the toilet brush so I consider myself quite lucky. They’re still little and they still think some things are fun, especially if they’re a little bit gross.

Ally: (laughing) That’s amazing.

Owenz: Yeah, but okay, research shows that the effort with chores is worth it. There's the Harvard Grant Study, which followed young adults through adulthood and some of the things that they found were most critically important in success was the relationship with parents, and then the involvement and family chores. So I like to think of it as “we're a team, we all live here together, we all enjoy the benefits of this together, and we're all going to work together on it.” For middle schoolers and teenagers, I like the idea of giving them some responsibilities in the home that they can be totally responsible for, meaning we're not going to micromanage it, we're not going to come along and inspect it but maybe it there's some natural consequences to it, like if they don't mow the lawn every week then the lawn mower is going to continually choke while they try to do it and they're gonna realize that, that they need to go back to doing it weekly. So something that they can have some ownership over and that they can feel good about. You know, I groan about doing chores, but I certainly feel better when my house is clean and everything is done. And teens have that same feeling too, even though they groan about it.

Ally: Okay, all right, that's good to know! My kids are never gonna mow the lawn, I can tell you that right now. (laughing)

Owenz: You can play to their strengths. There's some kind of strength, whether they're an organizer or they're a cooker, whatever it is that is a strength for them that they can kind of take on.

Ally: That's a great idea, to look at chores as what their strengths are. That's a really interesting concept. My older is very creative and she loves to make charcuterie boards and those kinds of things. So that might be good to get her engaged in, setting the table and making cool place settings, something like that.

Owenz: Yeah! And maybe being responsible for me a meal or two every week. That's great.

Ally: That's great. In the conversation article you talked about, positives versus avoidance goals with the aim of, quote, “edging out screen time.” I really like the way that sounds because it sounds doable, right? I'm just slowly pushing it out. You also talk a lot about relying less on self-control. What do you mean there?

Owenz: So, when we're trying not to do something, like trying not to check social media or Tik Tok as a teen, or I'm trying not to eat a high fat high sugar thing in that research study, I'm using willpower. And research shows that willpower is depleted after multiple uses. So if you're trying not to yell at your children and then you snap at your husband, that's a little bit of that willpower thing, right? Like, you've kind of used it up and it got depleted. And then later, you need something else to use that willpower and you couldn't muster it up, right? In contrast, if we're moving towards things that are positive and meaningful for us, it's less about willpower, like eating the apple or the orange in the fruit and vegetable study isn't about willpower it’s about enjoying that apple or that orange, right? So having a bonfire with the teenagers or going for a hike or having her take over dinner, those are things you're moving towards that are positive. And we tend to not get as exhausted when we have those type of goals.

Ally: Okay, okay. And literacy?

Owenz: Oh, literacy. Yes. So just about every research study shows these immense benefits of book reading- perspective taking and empathy building and academic achievement and vocabulary building. But book reading and recreational screen time are inversely related, which kind of makes sense, because we use them in similar fashions, right? So we could curl up with a good book or we could watch a TV show. And so the more time children spend reading the less recreational screen time they have. Going back to your comment earlier about, “sit down and read for them for 30 minutes,” it doesn't have to be that. So there's actually benefits to younger kids even pre-reading to just paging through books. There's the same benefits to audiobooks. So you can get an audiobook while you cook or get your kids some audiobooks from the library. Reading is just one of those things that is immensely powerful for child development.

Ally: That's great. So if a girlfriend came to you and said, “all right, Meghan, give me three small steps to take out of the gate.” What would you say?

Owenz: How old are her kids?

Ally: Middle school and elementary school, I’d say. I think I know a guy! (laughing)

Owenz: I would say one, have the conversation of what do they want to do more of to get their buy in and find out what they want to do more of. Two, for the elementary schooler, I would encourage small little droppings of things around the house that they can do. Can you set up some books and an inviting way? Can you make sure that they can get their bike or their scooter out of the garage? Sort of these soft invitations, when you're not pushing them to do something, but they just happen to notice that their roller skates are right by the back door. Or that there's a teepee set up in the living room, whatever it is that will entice your kid rather than pushing them, “hey, why don't you do this? Why are you always doing that?” You're just sort of a soft invitation. Let's see, what's the third thing that I would do? I would join in on both of their activities to the degree that I can when I’m able. You'd be amazed how little you have to do that as a parent to reinforce the idea that what they're doing is valuable.

Ally: Yeah, that's a good one. Okay, if I don't ask this question, I think my friend Cindy will kill me. The battling, right? I feel like I've become a prison guard in terms of “how long are you on? 20 minutes? Are you overtime? You did this? You did that? You really need to do your homework.” I feel like I have become a shrew. So how much do we need to get in the battle? I feel like a lot of moms are telling me they're so upset or they get so infuriated or frustrated then it just becomes a screaming match. And then it's like, “Fine! Take it!” It doesn't feel good where we are right now. How much should we be micromanaging that screen time?

Owenz: It doesn't feel good because the technology companies have made sure that it won't. So your children's apps, programs, games are persuasively designed to try to increase the amount of time your kid spends on the device. This is very different than the screen time that you grew up with as a kid, which was only on at certain times, it was very predictable, it was only in one location in the house, it wasn't in the car, it wasn't at the doctor's office, it wasn't at the grocery store, you didn't have that option. So your kids, it's not even them, it's that they're searching for where is the boundary there? Because the devices and the programs have no boundary whatsoever. In fact, they are designed to try to keep the kid engaged with their programs, so they don't go elsewhere in order to increase revenue. So they're really trapped and they're freaking out because they're showing you how trapped they feel. So turning it into a positive, the more that you can make it “this is when we do screen time” and it's scheduled when you have it and you're creating the boundaries around there. I empathize with parents, because they have to do so much more work than the previous generation of parents did with boundaries, which were just sort of natural. The parents didn't really have to think about it, like the cartoons were over at 10am on Saturday, so go find something to do, right? So if they're set times, like we always watch TV from this time to this time, or we always play our games from this time to this time, whatever that might be for your family. Simple reminders consistently like, “Oh, you know we always do that at three o'clock, it's gonna be so fun when it's three o'clock, isn't it?” You know, that works for a younger kid. But for a teen, they're going to push a little bit more but if the boundaries are clear every time and that's been the problem with a pandemic, the boundaries really haven't been clear, because we weren't able in a lot of cases. So as we reel things back in, it's gonna be tough for the kids. As long as we're consistent, that toughness will ease over time.

Ally: Oh, that's great. That's great advice. All right is there anything I didn't ask you think it's important for parents to know right now?

Owenz: I would just say that I promise you as you limit it, that it gets easier over time. My husband and I both work full time, we have a six and an almost nine year old, who have very limited screen time and both my husband and I work full time. We're all at home right now because of the pandemic and they find things to do and I don't really hear too much about it. And that's not because they're special, it's because all kids can do that once they get used to the boundaries around it and they're kind of encouraged to do these sorts of things.

Ally: Okay. You say that now, but I'm going to be calling you. (laughing) “You promised!”

Owenz: (laughing) Yeah.

Ally: Oh Meghan, this has been a great conversation. Thank you so much.

Owenz: Hey, thanks for having me, Ally. It was fun.

Owenz: All right. Take care.