Dr. Amy Vujaklija, Dr. Joi Patterson, and special guest Zion Banks discuss the complexities of organizational climate and culture, focusing on perception versus reality. They explore how employees' perceptions of the workplace can differ, influenced by factors like negativity bias, emotional contagion, and timing. They emphasize the importance of understanding the context behind survey results and feedback, as well as the role of leaders in fostering trust and positivity. The conversation highlights the need for leaders to balance negative feedback with positive reinforcement and to create an environment where employees feel heard and valued, ultimately improving morale and productivity.

Zion Banks 0:04

Happy employees are more productive and they stay longer. So that's what we have to learn to play up, and that's really what my role is as the chief storyteller.

Amy Vujaklija 0:14

Teaching and leading are rewarding but complex,

Joi Patterson 0:18

and whether you're in a classroom or a campus, new challenges are always emerging.

Amy Vujaklija 0:24

I'm Amy Vujaklija.

Joi Patterson 0:26

I'm Joi Patterson.

Amy Vujaklija 0:28

And this is Teaching and Leading,

Joi Patterson 0:30

where we explore teaching, leadership, equity, and the systems that shape education,

Amy Vujaklija 0:37

and how educators can grow, explore, and have a meaningful impact

Joi Patterson 0:42

as teachers

Amy Vujaklija 0:43

and leaders. So let's get into it. Hello, Dr. Joi.

Joi Patterson 0:50

Hello, Dr. Amy. How are you today?

Amy Vujaklija 0:53

I'm doing well. I'm excited about our next episode talking about climate and culture.

Joi Patterson 1:02

Yes, and today, what are we going to talk about? Perception versus reality. That's the big deal. Yes,

Amy Vujaklija 1:10

it is, because we want to know how two employees working in the same department can experience the workplace so differently. In this episode, we are exploring how perception shapes organizational climate, and we are joined today by the director of communications and public information officer Zion Banks. She refers to herself as chief storyteller. Now, together, we are going to discuss negativity bias and emotional contagion and those workplace narratives, cognitive shortcuts, and how all of this influences the organizational communication. And I think you can agree with me, Joi, that understanding these dynamics can help leaders interpret the survey results. We've been talking about surveys, the climate and culture survey, and the satisfaction surveys, but perception really shapes how those get interpreted,

Joi Patterson 2:22

yeah.

Amy Vujaklija 2:22

And we really need to respond in ways that build trust.

Joi Patterson 2:27

Yeah, and we always use that term that perceptions are real, and then you have to say, but are they really? You know. So one of the things that I've learned from leading these climate surveys is that the survey itself is only the beginning? You know those numbers that we get from that survey, which I call the preliminary results, just tells us what people are, but it doesn't tell us the why, right? So that's why I really love the forum so much because they talk about the why, so the surveys we look at it identifies the patterns, who's saying what, what groups you know are feeling certain ways, but the forum for me it really provides context. You know they allow me to hear the stories behind the scores, and oftentimes they don't even want to talk about the scores. They just want to talk feelings. You know, for example, if communication communication is always a big one. If communication scores are lower than expected, you know, the survey tells us there's a concern, right, because of the score you may receive. But when you sit down in a room with faculty and staff and students, and we just simply listen, we begin to understand what's really driving those responses. Maybe communication is actually absent, right? Or maybe it's inconsistent. Or maybe it's timely for one group and not another. We were just talking about in our cabinet meeting that when we talk about some information, that sometimes those leaders are on their phones and they're giving it out, you know, in real time. Others are waiting two weeks before they have a meeting and then they're telling their folks. So some of it is this timely? Get into time, information changes. But so maybe leaders believe that you know I'm communicating effectively because I got the message out, right? While employees feel like they're not receiving the information that they need to know to do their jobs. So what they need and what we're giving could be two different things. So those conversations, really talking about the forms, what's behind the numbers, they really help us move beyond the assumption. That's always stood out to me. This is most employees do not participate. In the survey, because they're trying to criticize the institution, and sometimes they avoid the survey because they don't want to do it just to criticize. Most of them do it because they genuinely want their organization to succeed, right? You know, so people don't wake up in the morning like you didn't wake up this morning, Amy, and say, "Oh, I want to talk about something bad about my workplace today. You know, but you're you may be thinking, "I want to work somewhere, some place that listens to me, that values my contribution, and a place where I can continue to improve. So we have those conversations all the time. So people have invested years. You've invested years. Zion's invested years at our organization. We got relationships. We have purpose. We have pride, and we want to stay. You know, and some of us want to stay to retirement, and so we want to be a part of what can make it better. So some of you might be saying, "Hey, this sounds like my marriage. It's exactly like a marriage, right? When you have disagreements and you're arguing because you're not trying to criticize your spouse, you're arguing because you want something to improve, which could be seeing things your way, but not necessarily. But you want things to improve, right? And you want things to be better because you want to stay, right? And so that's how I look at it. As the feedback is just really such a gift, it's not a criticism, and it's evidence that people still really care, and and they care enough to get engaged.

Amy Vujaklija 6:49

Well, okay, let me ask this though, and Zion counts in here too to think about this perception when people are talking, you know, at the water cooler in the hallway, or maybe there's an event, you know, we we've been to each other, we stop by each other's doors, and we, oh, did you hear what just or this policy got changed, or oh, now we have a whatever dress code. Now, that's not what you saw in the climate survey. The overwhelming response actually improved from a previous survey, and so when people analyze the results of a survey, but they're also thinking about well. But I heard this in the hallway. How come these two things aren't aren't meshing? What makes that?

Zion Banks 7:56

So I'm just I'm just thinking about like a very real scenario. Like if if I get the climate survey on Tuesday at 2o'clock, I'm going to give you my perception of what's going on Tuesday at 2o'clock. Now, if I get an email Tuesday at six indicating there's a new dress code or there's a new remote work policy, my perception or my views may shift. So if I took that same survey the next day, my answers might be a little bit different. I mean, I think those surveys are very valuable. I worked at a place where every year they won 100. I worked at a company where they were voted like one of the best places to work, like every year for 20 years. Those surveys are very, very valuable, but I also think that they reflect a point in time. So when I'm taking this survey on Tuesday at two or Wednesday at 10, this is how I feel at this particular time. Now everybody's not as narrow as people are. I wish

Joi Patterson 9:00

you were in the first two episodes

Zion Banks 9:02

when

Joi Patterson 9:03

you talked about morale because you actually just gave the definition to morale and morale being how you're feeling at any given point in time. So if we

Zion Banks 9:13

wanted to

Joi Patterson 9:14

measure morale, we could actually measure it every day if we wanted to, and it would be different every day. You got this dress code policy, you know. You got layoffs, you know. You got this, and you know everybody got a raise. Woo! You know, so morale would be different every day, which is the difference between morale and climate. And so climate, when you start thinking about think about it from the outsider that's asking you a question. Tell me what it's like at Governor State. Tell me as an employee or that employee that you're interviewing, and you start talking about your benefits and how people treat each other and the diversity and all of that. That's your climate coming out, and

Zion Banks 9:58

okay, okay,

Joi Patterson 9:59

feels very different. Than the morale that you just experienced because of the email you got, you know. So imagine that 80% of the employees reported having positive experience, which is really encouraging. And but if the only 20% had a negative experience, it doesn't mean that one experience is real and one is not, right?

Exactly.

And you feel better, like I know I feel better. I feel better simply because the majority had a good experience. But on the other hand, we feel discouraged because it feels like no matter what you do, and the difficult comments and the things that you hear, it just it just kind of drains you, you know. Well,

you you know what they say: you're not doing a good job if if everyone's always had your everyone's

always pleased, right?

Yeah, you're not you're not doing your job well. So we know that there are going to be some people who, no matter what you do, are upset. But if I got an 80% approval rating, I'd be over the moon. I would be over the moon. I would take that to mean that I'm doing doing what's right and what's good for my employee base for the productivity 80% of the time. That's a win.

But this also leads to another question I have, because you said with timing that morale can get can take a hit. You know, depending on when you're being asked certain questions, the climate survey probably teases out more general responses than I'm bound, but what is your thought on how negative experiences seem sometimes to outweigh the positive? What do you think the how gossip can influence climate? What are your thoughts on that, especially in your role as the storyteller?

Well, you know, there's science behind how bad news travels, how gossip travels. Like it lights up areas of our brain. It makes more of an impact. I'm a former news person. Our standing motto, and it was horrible, but it was true. Was if it bleeds, it leads. People are impacted and moved by bad news much more so than good news. And so I do think that if bad news is kind of floating around the area, floating around the the climate, it does impact our morale, our behavior, and how we respond on those climate surveys, as opposed to good news, which doesn't travel so fast, doesn't make as much of an impact, but it's very important. And I think that as leaders, we have to really play up what the good news is. We have to really play up the good news and and make it make an impact because news is what impacts morale, and morale is what impact impacts productivity, and and that those are those long-standing relationships that we talked about. The productivity, heavy employees are more productive and they stay longer. So that's what we have to learn to play up, and that's really what my role is, as the chief storyteller.

Very good. I'm so glad you said that because we do have to remember that as leaders, because that's not the first reaction with leaders when they hear something negative. You know, it's always on the defense of right. That's not what be intended. They don't understand everything that's happening. That's only one department. We go down the list, and you know, those reactions are understandable because, as leaders, you're deeply invested in the institution. You're putting in long hours. You're making difficult decisions, financial decisions, all of these things, and it seems like they just don't understand, you know. But employees, they experience it very differently. Their day to day is their reality,

and we're all human, right? You know, so if the team brings me something that can be perceived as bad news, I really try to step outside of myself and say, "Okay, this is how they feel. Their feelings are valid. Let's just kind of suss it out. And I always try to leave the meetings, the situations, in a better place.

Yep, and it doesn't mean that I'm right and you're wrong. It just means that we're simply looking through different windows, right? So there's no

perceptions.

Yep,

perceptions.

Yep, and our realities are are different. You know, one of the things I find fascinating about like storytelling is storytelling. As you know, it's just from that person's perspective. You naturally empathize with the character that's telling the story, right, Amy? Amy's a storyteller too. You you start to understand their motivation. Their struggles and the decisions that they make. So your team, whoever is telling the story,

right.

Then when you hear the same story from someone else's perspective, then we realize that there's another truth that's unfolding at the same time, and both things can Be right,

correct, and it's like your perception, my perception, and then the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Right. I

think as leaders, individuals need to remember. Leaders need to remember that transparency is important. Knowing the context why decisions are made, if they're if it's going to pose a negative impact on someone, why a decision is made is important to be transparent. But also the kudos, the leading with the positive and emphasizing the positive because so often if we are perpetuating that negative story or we're not countering or balancing it with something positive, the negativity will take over. Often, even whenever it doesn't have a place, it doesn't really have a good foundation, balancing that negativity with positivity, and I think also that messaging and really pushing the positive story, not just as a balance to negativity, but find the good stories and elevate them. I think that is going to be key to kind of really helping with this perception. The other thing I want to say, though, is when that negativity comes to that comes to your door,

is

countering it with where did you hear that information? What is the truth underneath that information?

Yeah, I think I told you last time I've learned to embrace gossip, and I didn't before because it gives you that opportunity, right, of sharing the truth or sharing some light, you know, and in a leadership position, it's not about proving whose perception is right because we just talked about that. It's about understanding why different perceptions exist. So why do people feel this way? And then creating an environment where people can move forward in a shared reality, so we still have to understand the why of the perception.

I agree with you, Dr. Joi. I'm sorry, Dr. Amy. I think that context is everything. You know, we we keep like bringing up the remote work policy. What's the context behind that? Why was that decision made? Are other schools coming back, other staffs coming back to work more? Like, what is it? Do we just kind of make it up out of a vacuum? Is there a monetary motivation behind it? And I think that once you give people the context, then they can make a more informed decision. If you just say, "Hey, this is a new policy, then there's a knee-jerk response. And so, even in HR training, we talk about high context and low context. And so, that context can give you all the clues that you need-the context clues that we grew up with-to know how to process this or how to feel about this. Is this really a good thing for productivity, for for employee morale, for community building, or is this a punishment? Let us know. And so I love that about transparency. That these are the factors leading to this decision. This is what happens if we don't make this decision. This is what happens if we move forward. Full context. I love

it. I want to ask both of you too. When we're confronted with that negativity or with that gossip, what can we do? What are some strategies or ways to turn it into a more constructive dialog? What kind of questions should be be asking the person who's talking the tale, spreading negativity, or just venting? And that's fine. We want people to be comfortable to to share their experiences and how they are affected by the workplace happenings, but what are some ways to turn it into a constructive dialog?

Well, for me, gossip is information. So, like Dr. Joi said, where did you get that information? What was the context? What do you think this means? Does that make sense in the context of everything else? I mean, we talk it through. What happens if this is not true? How many people have you shared this with? Are we are we damaging somebody's reputation? Are we boosting their reputation? So just kind of talking it through, answering all the questions. Why is this important to you? Why are you bringing me this information?

Right, and I also end it with what their responsibility is because a lot of times they're talking, "Oh, morale is down" or this, that, and I'll end it with, "Well, what are you doing to shape someone's morale to lift somebody up? You know, what are you doing? And it and it causes them to pause. And like you, I do believe now. Now that I embrace it, that gossip is information, and it is an opportunity for you to set records straight.

It's information. It's some people think that it's a great thing in the workplace because it builds community and sharing and a sense of of belonging. I'm just saying. All

right, put that on my list of things of how to increase belonging.

15 second gossip session. Go. I've

loved this conversation. I think this perception in reality we all struggle with it, but really being able to look at the context and understand where people are coming from is so important. I think there's a lot we can do, and I think what we're saying here today, leaders, you got to take that step forward. It's your responsibility. It's all of our responsibility to increase the positivity and to really celebrate each other.

Well, I think that one way we can kind of shift morale, shift negative perceptions, really is to build trust, like Dr. Joi said. Really is to kind of encourage people to not to fill out a survey, but to come and talk, and to vent and to let their perceptions be heard, so that at least they feel like when decisions are made, they're not being made in a vacuum, that their input was there and that their input was heard. I mean, for me, it comes back to to building a sense of of trust. Do the employees trust leadership? Do do employees trust whoever is making the decisions? Do they feel like they've been seen and heard in the decision-making process,

absolutely, I agree.

That's something that I get with my team a lot. Where did this come from? What about our schedules? Sorry, let's rethink this. And they, I think they appreciate it. I mean that that I'm open and that I'm willing to listen. Sometimes the decision stands. Sometimes I change it. But I think they feel. I my prayer is that they feel seen and heard.

And that's important. So trust is important. So I think that that's a good place for us to land us when this episode.

Okay. Okay.

Very good.

Thank you.

Thank you. It's been fun.

Thanks for listening to Teaching and Leading with Dr. Amy and Dr. Joi.

This podcast is supported by Governor State University.

Show notes and resources for this episode are available at govst.edu/teachingandleadingpodcast.

Until next time,

keep growing

as teachers

and leaders.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai