Hi, it's Keith here and after numerous prods from you, dear listeners, it was time to get the recording device out once again.

Bit of a catch up on a few things in today's episode:

• Women's RWC match officiating
• Refereeing a foul play scenario after a try
• Charging down a Try Line Drop out
• Refereeing the new open play pod lift
• A tricky situation for me with a piece of player equipment

Relevant links:

RugbyReferee.net Open play pod lift article

World Rugby approved devices list

Rezon Halos - may well be a great product but not approved for use in matches yet - see their FAQ page

If you have any comments about this episode, or suggestions for future shows, then drop me a line at ref@rugbyreferee.net!

You can follow us here:

Instagram: RugbyRefereenet

Facebook: Page: RugbyReferee.net

Facebook Group: RugbyReferee.net Community

Or you can connect with Keith personally on Twitter or LinkedIn

AO43-The-Pod-return-converted: Welcome

to Advantage Over Full Rugby podcast

2

to help you become a better referee.

3

Your host today is Keith Lewis.

4

Are you ready?

5

Time on.

6

Hello and welcome to The

Advantage Over Podcast.

7

It's Keith here and it's been a

while since I've been here with

8

you, but I figured it's about time.

9

Um, after a wicked year of

rugby across the world, um,

10

particularly here in England over

the last six weeks to get back.

11

Into the podcast space and start

talking about stuff that, um, I'm really

12

passionate that I about, I know the stuff

that you are really passionate about,

13

um, and how we can sort of en encourage

everybody to, to know a little bit more

14

and understand a little bit more about

us as referees, but also to help us all

15

to make ourselves a little bit better

when we go out and, um, referee on this

16

fantastic game that we call rugby Union.

17

Um, for this episode, um, I've just had

a bunch of stuff floating around my head.

18

Um, whether it's from calls from fellow

referees, whether it's from incidents

19

that we've seen, um, on tele, some sort

of other trend stuff that we've started

20

to see and how we might, um, do it.

21

And I just wanna talk about

my own referee as well.

22

Um, 'cause as well as being obviously.

23

Uh, work in the rugby space and do a

lot of stuff with rugby referee.net

24

and in our fantastic referee community.

25

Um, I also run around on the field as

well, which I sometimes don't talk about.

26

Um, sometimes I forget

that I do that as well.

27

Um, but it's some, always brings some

interesting nuggets to the fore that,

28

um, I think it's worth talking about.

29

So I've got one of the, a couple

of those to talk about, um, today.

30

Um, but this podcast should be

more regular than it is, um, and

31

I want you to help me with that.

32

Um, so what I'm gonna ask people

to do is to, um, think about.

33

Message me on any of the

social media platforms that you

34

can find, rugby referee.net,

35

um, whether you come to my email

inbox, um, keith@rugbyreferee.net,

36

and tell me what you want to hear about.

37

Whether it's specific scenarios, whether

it's particular areas of the game,

38

whether it's particular people in the

game that you'd like to hear from,

39

um, or particular subjects that you

might want to know a little bit more

40

about to help you be a better referee.

41

Um, that's what the podcast is all about.

42

So please come and find me.

43

Let me know what you want to talk

about and what you want to hear about.

44

And I'll do my very best to, to, to

find the answers to those questions.

45

Um, whether they be sort of short form,

quick answers to questions, um, or whether

46

they be long form perhaps interviews

or conversations with other people.

47

We're gonna try and do

a whole bunch of stuff.

48

Um, so I've got four things on the list

that have cropped up in the last couple

49

of weeks that I want to talk about.

50

Um, but first we can't let this

pass, um, after a World Cup that

51

we've just seen here in England to

not talk about the match officiating

52

and the match official team.

53

Um.

54

The country here.

55

Um, and the, the rugby community

is talking about a fantastic

56

event of celebrating women rugby.

57

And it's absolutely right that we

call out and recognize our colleagues

58

who've been helping to officiate that,

um, throughout the the World Cup.

59

Um, I've had the real privilege

and pleasure to, to be in

60

the room with some of them.

61

Um, to talk about how they, um, approach

the games, how they, um, how they referee.

62

I've got to know some of 'em a bit

more personally in, in the free time

63

that they've had been just fantastic.

64

And to see Holly Davidson out there

refereeing that World Cup final

65

in front of 82,000 people, um, was

just something I will never forget.

66

Um, and also, um, just a, a recognition

of the whole match officiating team.

67

Um, we've had, um, people like Sarah Cox,

who's reached her 50th cap, Amy Barrett

68

on right behind her on the, on those sort

of top end, been been around in the nicest

69

possible way, um, for a long time in,

in rugby, refereeing professionally at

70

the highest level, and that's fantastic.

71

Um, but we've also seen a bunch

of, of newcomers to the block.

72

Um, Ella Goldsmith from Australia.

73

Um, out there refereeing the

bronze final in front of what

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must have been north of 60,000.

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Must have been a, a

brilliant experience for her.

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Um, and, and, and just recognition

for that toilet we've had.

77

We've got some real, um, great talent

coming through the refereeing ranks.

78

Um, it's been great to

spend time with them.

79

It's been great to, to, to see

them in action up, up close.

80

They're such a great group of people, um,

human, human beings as well as referees.

81

Obviously that's why they're there.

82

That's why they were selected.

83

That's why they put all

that time and effort.

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Um, and their, and their reward of

being selected to a rugby world Cup is

85

something that they must never forget.

86

Um, and we should celebrate that.

87

Um, and if we look at the

whole of the tournament.

88

That the way that people are talking

about the game, um, and the growth of the

89

game and the entertainment factor, um,

is also down to as well as the, obviously

90

the, the, the 30 other players on the

field and the other, um, um, squad, the,

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the extended squads around those teams.

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But it's also testament to them

and their achievements and them

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under understanding the game.

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The fact that they, they all

love rugby so much and they, they

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brought that ethos into the game.

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Um, and we got some

fantastic games out of it.

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So the fact that we're not talking about.

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Many refereeing decisions, um, at

all, um, is a testament to them all

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and the hard work that they put in.

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So, great work team.

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Um, I think some of you

might listen to this.

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Um, just know how, how pleased we all

are as a referee community to see you

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do your thing, um, and all power to you

and your support networks around you.

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So, fantastic work squad.

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Um, we're looking forward to seeing what

happens over the next four year cycle.

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Um, and we'll all come to Australia to,

to, to see how things are getting on.

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Um, but other things that I wanted

to talk about, um, I had a really

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good conversation with a fellow

referee this morning, um, after

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an incident over the weekend.

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So we're gonna talk about discipline

matters, um, particularly in a scenario

111

where a try has just been scored.

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Um, we've had issues in the last

couple issues and we heard a couple

113

of random incidents on those.

114

I'm using air quotes there.

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Things that never happen

front where we've, we've seen.

116

Ch um, goal line drop try line dropouts

taken, um, badly and score, uh, in the

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opposition of scored a try from them.

118

So we'll talk about, um, charging the

try line dropout, which is slightly

119

different to what some people, um, have

experienced or might remember, um, before.

120

Um, we've also seen some new stuff

coming into the game, which I think

121

we need to think about as referees,

about how we officiate them.

122

Um, and the thing I'm thinking about

there, it's obviously started, um,

123

obviously no, it started, um, actually

in a school board game that we first

124

saw it in, um, in South Africa.

125

Um, and then we've seen that replicated

both at international level, um, both

126

in, um, in South Africa, but also other

teams are starting to try as well.

127

And that's where we see an open play pod

lift, a bit like a line out pod being

128

lifted in the air, but in open play.

129

So we need to really think about

the pictures that we're seeing, the

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pictures that they're presenting to

as, and how we should referee it.

131

Um, so we'll talk about that.

132

Um, and then we also sometimes

as referees get put in really

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tough positions, um, when we.

134

Are presented with things before, um, the

game, perhaps a stu check or a piece of

135

equipment that just throws us off balance,

and we need to be prepared for how we

136

deal with, um, those tricky conversations.

137

So, yeah.

138

Um, a bunch of stuff that's been on

my list initially, so let's just, um,

139

crack on and, uh, talk about them.

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Um, so firstly just, this is just, and

this is a, something I want to do a

141

bit more of is that, um, this wasn't

intended to be a piece of podcast content.

142

Um, but as, as, as Mondays go, I tend

to get, um, the odd message from,

143

from somebody or the odd phone call

from somebody, um, at both domestic

144

and elite level about something

that's happened over the weekend.

145

So it's really great to hear from one

of my fellow, um, community referees

146

that this morning, um, to talk about a

tricky incident that he had yesterday.

147

Um, and we had a really good

positive conversation with it.

148

I think we recognized that

perhaps he didn't deal with it.

149

Correctly in law.

150

But it's one of those things that so

rarely happens if we don't talk about it.

151

No one knows what the right answer is.

152

So sometimes we have to do things

wrong in order to get them right.

153

So we'll talk through the scenario.

154

Um, and this, this will be

familiar for anyone who's refereed.

155

Um.

156

Men's rugby towards the start of the

season or local Darby where these thing,

157

you get games like this, which have a bit

of niggle to them, um, where something

158

just happens in front of you, you dunno

what causes it, but you get a blowup of

159

testosterone and angst that kicks off.

160

So the scenario, what happened

was, um, as it was relayed to

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me, is that as a, a try was just.

162

A try was scored and at the same moment

as the referee was putting the whistle

163

to his mouth to blow that try, um,

it then kicked off in front of him.

164

There was a, some RG barge.

165

There was some, um, usual pushing

and shoving, usual pushing.

166

There was some pushing and shoving of

stuff going on, but then that seemed

167

to escalate and others got involved.

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And one play out to, um, run

from quite a distance away.

169

Arms flailing.

170

Passed the referee.

171

Just missed the referee, and

then started throwing punches.

172

Um.

173

F in a typical, as it described to me,

none of them landed particularly well.

174

But that's the picture that you might,

some of you will have recognized, some

175

of you will be smiling Riley at that and

thinking about, yep, we've all been there.

176

Um, but what the, the ref talked to

me about was that, what, what should

177

he have done in terms of restarting

the game and dealing with it?

178

Um, because what he did was to deal with

the fraco, deal with what was going on.

179

Sanctioned, the player who came in

whirling his arms around and throwing

180

punches, which was completely unnecessary,

highly illegal, always illegal, um,

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and not a rugby action as opposed to

the, perhaps the more understandable

182

instant reaction that you might see

from the two players who were involved

183

in something or two other, other

players who were involved in something.

184

Um, so he dealt with that and sent that

player from the field quite right too.

185

Um, but then he restarted the game with

a penalty for that particular action.

186

Um, so when we talked about it.

187

We kind of realized that

probably wasn't supported in law.

188

Whilst it was easy as an easy

decision to sell, um, to do that,

189

to do that because you've got a

red card, so you've got to do it.

190

The sequence of events makes this

different because the try was scored,

191

the ball was put down in the, in

the in goal area by an attacking

192

player, so there's no issue with that.

193

The ball was scored and then what happened

after that is that it all kicked off.

194

So what happens when we have a try?

195

We have a conversion and

then we have a restart.

196

And that's the point where any sanction

that you have to deal with when

197

the ball is dead, is taking place.

198

Um, and, and just some rationale behind

that, um, is actually it buys you a whole

199

load of time and space because if we've

got a try and we've got a conversion,

200

we've got 15 players behind the posts,

cooling down, taking some deep breaths,

201

and the other 14 players, 'cause someone's

gonna kick the ball, are then 50 plus

202

meters away, back in their own half.

203

Doing the same thing.

204

So we've got distance and space for

everyone to calm down so we can take the

205

conversion, deal with the conversion.

206

Then we deal with the foul play.

207

And then we deal with the

restart from that point.

208

But the scenario that he faced was

the first time it had happened to him.

209

It was a really good conversation.

210

He managed.

211

No one argued with it at the time,

dealt with the situation, dealt

212

with the incident of foul play

as you, as you should have done.

213

Restart with a penalty.

214

Um, obviously that was in the

wrong place and the try should

215

have stored in the community game.

216

These things sometimes happen, um,

and that's, um, totally okay and we

217

should all recognize that 'cause uh,

this is a tough game for us to, to do.

218

We're on our own.

219

We don't have the support of other people

to help us out with those scenarios to,

220

as we talk it through, we sometimes hear.

221

On tv we're, we're seeing the referee talk

to the AR and the TMO and between them

222

they come up with solutions to problems.

223

We don't have that when I'm out there on

my own on a Sunday, on a Saturday or a

224

Sunday, I'm on my own making decisions.

225

I've got to do piece all those pieces of

information on my experience together to

226

come up with the right, the right outcome.

227

Yeah.

228

So if we have a try being

scored and then foul play.

229

Anything that you need to deal with

after the ball was put down, we then

230

deal with at the restart, which is of

course is back on the halfway line.

231

We create nice and we create our

space, we create our time, we get the

232

process, um, in the right order, um,

and then we can restart accordingly.

233

And hopefully that will just

give people enough time.

234

To literally breathe and regain

composure and start the game,

235

and we get on with playing rugby.

236

So that was a really good conversation.

237

I really enjoy those

conversations on a Monday.

238

It's good to help other referees talk

through and process those situations.

239

And if we want, if you want to help

out here on the podcast, you can, uh,

240

um, I said drop me an email or gimme a

shout when I'm not hard to find across

241

the socials, um, to, to get those,

um, I, those scenarios talked through.

242

And we can perhaps do it,

um, on this pod as well.

243

So that was the first one.

244

Um, the other one is actually a,

an issue that we've started to see

245

a little bit more at the, um, try

Line Dropout, the formally, the

246

newly rebranded goal line dropout.

247

Um, because in, in law, the, uh,

world rugby be changed, the, the

248

goal line to, to try line because

that's what we all call it.

249

Um, so therefore the knock on consequences

of of that is that the goal line dropout

250

is now officially a trial line dropout.

251

But I think we'll probably all still

call it a goal and dropout, um, as I,

252

I'm bound to do in the next few minutes.

253

Um, so we, the issue we saw there.

254

Um, we saw it in the inter, in

the South Africa Argentina game.

255

Um, Chely Colby took the, um, took a ball.

256

Uh, the, a goal line dropout was awarded.

257

Um, a trial line dropout

was awarded ch chely.

258

Colby had possession of the

ball in his own in goal area.

259

Um, and what he, we, we believe

he was trying to kick the ball

260

across the field to his teammate

to, to take the goal line dropout.

261

But he didn't just who fit or he

didn't just throw it to his teammate.

262

He drop kicked it from ING goal across

the try line back into the field of play.

263

Um, the Argentina player who was beyond

the five meter line, which is what

264

we'll refer to as the sanction line, um,

then stepped forward, picked that ball

265

up and put it down over the try line.

266

Um, uh, Angus Gardner

said That looks a bit odd.

267

Let's just check what the

sequence of what happened.

268

Um, and when they looked at it

again, that is exactly what happened.

269

The, the try line dropout was correctly

taken, um, albeit he probably shouldn't

270

have done and didn't mean to, but he

did drop, kick it, um, out from ing goal

271

acro across the, across the try line.

272

Um, back into open play, the Argentina

player was correctly positioned to

273

start with, um, and was entitled to

pick that ball up and do what he wanted

274

with it, and of course, score a try.

275

So the try it was scored.

276

Um, but somebody asked, um, a question.

277

The, the question was around not

being able to charge over that line,

278

um, and not being able to do that

before the ball had crossed the line.

279

And I think that comes back to the old

scenario where we had, we only had the

280

22 dropout, um, because the sanction

line and the kicking line were the same.

281

So you could, you, you still can't charge

over the taking, kicking line in order to

282

stop the, the dropout from taking place.

283

Um, but.

284

So in a 22, you can't charge over the, um,

the 22 meter line to stop the ball being

285

kicked 'cause that wouldn't be right.

286

Um, whereas in the try line dropout,

we have a different line for the

287

kicking line and the sanction line.

288

So the kicking line and try line

Dropout is on or behind the try line.

289

The sanction line.

290

So it has to travel five, it has to go

beyond five is five meters away from that.

291

It's on the five meter line.

292

So that's where the difference is.

293

That's what some people thought.

294

If you, if you haven't actually pieced

that all together, you couldn't charge

295

that down, um, then that's the rationale

for why it's slightly different.

296

So just something to think about.

297

Um, it's one of those never

happens, never going to happen.

298

But has happened and we've, we're

now starting to see defenses putting

299

pressure on those trial line dropouts

to gain possession of the ball.

300

Um, as long as they start beyond

the five meter line and the ball

301

is kicked across the kicking line.

302

So it, it the kick the defending

team, kick it from behind on or

303

behind the trial line, and it

travels into the field of play.

304

Um.

305

Then that's okay.

306

And obviously the defend, the, the

non-kicking team, they're still

307

defenders, although they're 90, only

five meters away from the trial line.

308

Um, they, as long as they start

beyond five meters and they don't,

309

um, stop it from crossing the goal

line, which of course is practically

310

impossible, then that's okay.

311

Um, so just something odd

that cropped up in that game.

312

Um, the third issue I wanted to

talk about, and I actually did

313

a post on this a couple of weeks

ago on the rugby referee.net

314

website, was about how we should

referee the open play pod lift.

315

Um.

316

It's, it's the sort of scenario that was,

we now started to see a little bit more.

317

Um, we're bound to see some

community rugby teams trying it

318

out 'cause they've seen it on tv.

319

Um, and this is one of those

things where when it happens,

320

um, it's, and it's done legally.

321

Um, and it's pretty hard

not to do it legally.

322

It is totally okay.

323

Um, it is legal in law and it's really

explicit in law 9 26, that in open

324

play, any player may lift or support

a teammate, and if they do, they must

325

lower that play to the ground safely as

soon as the ball is won by either team.

326

So it's really explicit in law that

you are allowed to lift somebody in

327

open play, a teammate in open play.

328

There is one scenario where you are not

allowed to do that, and that is to stop.

329

A kick at goal from going over the post.

330

So you can't lift to block a kick.

331

Um, but you can in open play for

any number of any reasons that

332

you might deem fit to do so.

333

We normally see it a kickoff

where the ball is kicked and

334

you get a pod lifting up.

335

Um, so those tall players get

hoisted into the air that they claim

336

possession of the ball at the kickoff.

337

Unlike kickoff, catch a catch receipt.

338

Sometimes you might hear

that referred to us.

339

So that's where it normally happens.

340

It's never been an issue before.

341

No one really.

342

As it would even bat an eye

that that was a problem.

343

But now teams are starting to

do it in open play when they

344

have possession of the ball.

345

So we get, um, a sort of, I guess,

um, ruck to ruck or, or breakdown to

346

breakdown area where we start to see

where we might see that the nine throw

347

a ball rather than flat to 10 or flat to

a six or seven for the next phase, they

348

will throw the ball high into the air.

349

Um, so their teammate, that the tour

player will kind of be supported

350

up into the air to do that, and

they will come down as a three.

351

Um, and the, the issue

is what happens next?

352

So that, as I've just

described, it is legal.

353

Everything about that is legal.

354

What happens next is what makes

it potentially a problem and

355

something we need to think about.

356

Um, so it's not a flying wedge

'cause it hasn't gone anywhere.

357

Um, a flying wedge is where you have

those, uh, a pod of three players around

358

the ball moving towards a defender.

359

Um, usually at pace.

360

And it's usually an open place.

361

It's usually around the,

around the goal line.

362

So that's what makes that dangerous

is that you've got three players

363

moving towards one player.

364

At speed.

365

That's the element of danger.

366

So if they come down together and you

get a defender, tries to tackle that

367

ball carrier, and again, they should

have access to that, the ball carrier,

368

they can't be blocked from doing that.

369

'cause that would be

obstruction then that's okay.

370

We don't have that flying wedge issue.

371

It's not a flying wedge.

372

Um, because it's literally not flying.

373

It's, it's standard and static.

374

Um, that ball carrier can

be tackled by that player.

375

They're not forming if they do it.

376

Straight away then we're not,

they're not creating a mall.

377

They're tackling a ball

carrier, so that's okay.

378

Um, we can, we can, we can move through

that, but, but what can go wrong?

379

And if so, at the moment,

it's being done there.

380

You get that pod being lifted, you get

the ball being brought down, and the

381

intention is to suck defenders into

that space, to either then quickly

382

pass the ball away or to create a mo

and then do moley type things again.

383

Perfectly legal.

384

A team is entitled to create a mall in

a, in a safe and legal way, which is what

385

they've done there, is that, that the

ball carrying team have got a few options.

386

Um.

387

The other reason that it's, it's not,

um, a, a flying wedge is 'cause the,

388

uh, it was the players in the air.

389

It's not a wedge.

390

It's not, they're not bound together.

391

They're lifting.

392

So you don't have that.

393

Bind onto each other until everyone

then hits the ground, which becomes

394

a slightly more, more gray area.

395

As we said, it's not obstruction.

396

If the ball carrier is taxable,

you've gotta be tackle a ball.

397

Is that even a word?

398

It's now.

399

Anyway, the ball carrier comes

down, they're facing the, they've

400

got their back to the opposition.

401

But if providing similar to a line

out that the defense can get to that

402

player, then it's not obstruction.

403

So we can carry on with that.

404

Um.

405

It's not, um, a sort of,

uh, it's not a problem.

406

Um, it's just what happens next.

407

So how, how should teams

start to defend it?

408

So most of the legal

elements that we've just.

409

That make it a perfectly legal incident

are predicated, are dependent on a

410

defender getting involved and attached to

that ball carrier as soon as they land.

411

In all the occasions where I think we've

seen it so far, that is what's happened.

412

So therefore you've got

three or two, um, versus one.

413

We've, we are getting that more

formed without any movement to it.

414

So that's what we think, uh, that's

what's happening at the moment.

415

Um, so the best thing I can think of in

order to defend this is not to engage with

416

it step straight away, is to step off it.

417

So you have to read that

it's about to happen.

418

Um, and, and let the attack form up

with those multiple pre latches or

419

pre binds to create a flying wedge

and then let it get, get moving.

420

'cause once it gets moving, then we're

into flying wedge territory and then

421

we're into obstruction territory.

422

Or a defendant could just come

around the back of it and then

423

take the ball off the ball carrier.

424

Um, obviously that's a risk that

the attacking team don't do the

425

things that would make it illegal.

426

So they don't bind, they don't

obstruct, and the ball stays

427

at the front of that thing.

428

Um, so yeah.

429

So look, it's one of those tricky things

to, to see and to, to think about.

430

Um.

431

But at the moment that open play

pod lift is perfectly legal.

432

It's risky to execute and to

some extent might be pointless

433

and it might work against them.

434

And I think defending teams will

start to figure it out quite easily.

435

Um, it's definitely something

we need to keep watching and

436

we'll see how often it happens.

437

It might never happen because it's

too hard and, um, it's too, too easy

438

and defenses can easily deal with it.

439

Um, but that's the sort of.

440

Thing that we see in the game

that happens every now and again.

441

That puts us in, in, in the refereeing

spot in a difficult position

442

because it's not the expected thing

that we're expecting to happen.

443

We're expecting after a ruck for nine to

pass the 10 to do to center or nine to

444

to six or seven, and then to come back

for a pop and go, or nine to prop to pick

445

and to carry into the next breakdown.

446

And we repeat that until the ball goes

one way the other and someone kicks it.

447

That's what we expect.

448

And suddenly we've got teams innovating.

449

And I think that's a good thing and

we should celebrate that in our game.

450

Um, it's really important.

451

Um, obviously it gives us different

things that we have to think about

452

in terms of how it's set up, um, how

it's, um, created, what happens next.

453

Have we got all those elements

of, um, illegality that, um,

454

aren't happening but could happen?

455

Um, and then how we referee that

for, but hopefully there's some

456

things there to keep you, um, going.

457

So that was the third thing.

458

Um, the first thing, the first thing

that was on my mind, um, is a tough

459

position that I was put in in the last

couple of weeks where I went to a game.

460

Um, I saw, uh, in the warmup,

um, and that the, the stud, uh,

461

well I check went to check studs.

462

Um, the team, one of the team

players was wearing a headband,

463

um, that I'm familiar with.

464

Um, sold by one of the, the manufacturers

as a concussion protection device.

465

Um, it's literally a very thick band, um,

that players wear just above their ears.

466

Like a headband, like a sweat band.

467

You might have seen people play tennis in.

468

It's just that sort of sweat

band type thing, but it's

469

made of a thick, um, material.

470

It looks a bit clunky,

um, and things like that.

471

So I didn't make a fuss about

it at that particular point.

472

I checked studs.

473

I did the front row briefing, but

then I spoke to the coach about it.

474

Um.

475

And this is, um, it's a, it's a,

it's a product made by a company

476

called Raisin, R-E-Z-O-N, and I

think it's called a Halo Band.

477

Um, and they have some research.

478

They've done some research and they

believe, and they are selling it as

479

a concussion prevention tool, whether

that's has any science behind it,

480

that's not for, for this conversation.

481

Um, that's for them to, to prove

and put it through the appropriate

482

processes so that it can become, um,

an acceptable and approved item of.

483

Um, kit that players can wear in the

game of rugby, if any, um, product that

484

is put on the market for players to

wear has to be approved by world rugby.

485

It has to go through a sign off process.

486

It has to be proven technology, it

has to be evidentially checked, that

487

it's safe to wear, and for opponents

to come into contact with there.

488

That's what makes approved

equipment, approved equipment.

489

Um, that therefore earns the right of

that product to, um, to display and

490

show a, um, a, a world drug B logo, and

then it will appear on the world drug B

491

approved equipment list on their website.

492

That product doesn't appear on that

list, so therefore should not be worn.

493

In the game of rugby, in a rugby

match, obviously what people

494

do in training is up to them.

495

Um, but we as referees, we have

to comply with law four, um, which

496

states what player equipment is

allowed and what's not allowed.

497

And it really says in there that

anything that is worn needs to be, um,

498

compliant to world rugby regulations.

499

And then there's a regulation

that people can look at.

500

Um, if you look at the World Rugby

B website, there is a, an approved.

501

Um, equipment list that you can

look at all sorts of products

502

by all sorts of manufacturers of

stuff that we're allowed to see.

503

So we see it all the time

with padding, with scrum caps,

504

with um, whatever it might be.

505

Um, shin, boots, shim, or whatever,

whatever the product might be.

506

The list of equipment is then, if you ever

want to look at it, it's in the, it's on

507

the web world Rugby Beats website, and

I'll put that link in the show notes.

508

But we're presented with, sometimes we

see things and we're presented with stuff.

509

And the, the thing we often hear, and

we hear this a lot around studs as well,

510

is that, oh, last, last year's referee,

last week's referee said it was okay.

511

Um, and that might have been the

case, but that doesn't make it right.

512

Um, and it puts you in a really difficult

position as the referee put me in

513

a really difficult position as the

referee to say, I'm afraid that player's

514

not allowed to wear that in the game

because our responsibility and law is

515

to comply with the laws of the game.

516

Um, if the product was approved, if, if

we knowingly allow a product on the field.

517

That we know is against law for,

to, to, to, to, to carry through.

518

And something happens either to that

player or to the op or to an opponent

519

that comes back to us as referees.

520

So we've got to be strong there,

um, and, and make sure that we.

521

We know what we're looking for

and that's not an easy process.

522

We see stuff all the time.

523

We are not sure.

524

Um, and sometimes our reaction

is to say, oh, if others have

525

allowed it, it must be okay.

526

Other times we know it's not right.

527

We have to be strong and

say, no, you can't wear that.

528

We sometimes have those conversations

around jewelry and no studs

529

and lip rings and, and tongue

studs and those sorts of things.

530

We know they're not allowed to wear them.

531

We have to be strong because

it's for their safety.

532

And that's the issue.

533

It's a player safety issue.

534

And whilst products like that are

marketed and sold as a player safety

535

issue, um, they need to be put through

the appropriate process so that we as

536

community referees, um, are supported

when we, we make those decisions.

537

So a really tricky

position for me to put in.

538

I had a really awkward and

difficult conversation with the,

539

the adult that was with the player.

540

Um, they didn't wear it on the field,

and I was, I was comfortable with that.

541

Um, but it did lead to a, a, a

difficult series of conversations,

542

both with the player and the coach.

543

Um, which you can imagine

wasn't particularly pleasant.

544

Um.

545

In that con, given that context

and what it was being thought

546

they were being war for.

547

Um, but I, I remain strong on,

on that particular point because

548

I have the experience to do it.

549

But it's those sorts of things that

we, we kind of get, sometimes we

550

get, um, we put in those positions.

551

We have to, we have to kind of

sometimes know about these things

552

so that we know about them.

553

If you don't know, you don't know,

and you might err on the side of,

554

um, the wrong side of caution.

555

And other times we have to err

on the right side of caution.

556

And the feedback to the, the, the, the

players and the coaches are, look, if,

557

if, if these are products are being

sold, you need to make sure that.

558

They are approved and they're okay to do.

559

And, um, but that's just a tricky

situation that I found myself in.

560

I thought I'd share that with you.

561

Um, so hopefully you can see

there from the conversation

562

that we've, we've had there.

563

We've, there's lots going on in rugby.

564

We we're doing some really great

things when it comes to officiating.

565

Um, we're, we get put in some brilliant

positions as, as match official

566

to get involved and support rugby.

567

I hope many of you out there are out

there doing that week in, week out

568

supporting, um, adult rugby, men's

rugby, women's rugby, age grade rugby.

569

Um.

570

T one, non-contact, rugby, walking,

rugby, whatever it might be.

571

Special, um, special, um, education,

rugby, whatever it might be.

572

I hope you're out there loving the

game and giving a little bit back

573

to it and doing what you need to do.

574

Um, I hope you're enjoying

yourselves so far this season.

575

If you're in the southern hemisphere,

your season's probably coming to

576

an end and you're looking forward

to a, um, a bit of time off and a

577

bit of r and r and some recovery.

578

Enjoy that.

579

Um, and I look forward to hearing from

you soon about your, um, preseason plans.

580

Um.

581

So lots of bits and pieces there.

582

I hope you've enjoyed that, um,

content that we've brought for you.

583

Um, if you want to throw any other

scenarios or ask any other questions, um,

584

you can find me atKeith@rugbyreferee.net.

585

Um, we can, uh, get those questions

answered for you as soon as we can.

586

And with that, I think it's

time to say advantage over.

587

We'll see you next time.

588

Thanks for listening to the Advantage

Over podcast from rugby referee.net.

589

We hope you've enjoyed the content

that we brought to you this week.

590

What we'd really appreciate is

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591

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592

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593

Um, we'd also, um, ask you to tell

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594

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595

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596

We'd also love your feedback, um, and

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597

Let us know what you think.

598

Let us know what you want, um,

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599

better referees in the future.

600

So for now, that is advantage over.