Understanding the impact of imposter syndrome on youth is crucial to navigate their developmental journey. In this episode of the Where Parents Talk podcast, Lianne Castelino dives unpacks how early childhood experiences and family dynamics can foster feelings of inadequacy, leading children to question their abilities and worth with Dr. Richard Orbé-Austin.

A licensed psychologist, executive coach, speaker and author, sheds light on the intricate relationship between parenting styles and the prevalence of imposter syndrome.

Communication and discipline play pivotal roles in shaping a child's self-perception, especially in a world increasingly influenced by social media and academic pressures.

The discussion explores practical strategies to help children embrace their independence while fostering a healthy emotional and mental state, free from the shackles of self-doubt.

Takeaways:

• Imposter syndrome is not a mental health disorder but a prevalent phenomenon affecting 70% of people at some point in their lives.
• Understanding the impact of parental roles in childhood can help address imposter syndrome early on.
• The distinctions between low self-esteem and imposter syndrome are crucial for effective communication with our children.
• Toxic achievement culture and parenting styles can significantly influence the development of imposter syndrome in young adults.
• Encouraging independence in children while fostering healthy discipline can mitigate feelings of inadequacy.
• Promoting open communication about mental health can empower children to confront and overcome imposter syndrome.

This podcast is for parents, guardians, teachers and caregivers to learn proven strategies and trusted tips on raising kids, teens and young adults based on science, evidenced and lived experience.

In this podcast, we explore the impact of hormonal changes, device usage, and social media on discipline, communication, and independence.

You’ll learn the latest on topics like managing bullying, consent, fostering healthy relationships, and the interconnectedness of mental, emotional and physical health.

Links referenced in this episode:

• whereparentstalk.com

Welcome to the Where Parents Talk podcast. We help grow better parents through science, evidence and the lived experience of other parents.

Learn how to better navigate the mental and physical health of your tween teen or young adult through proven expert advice. Here's your host, Lianne Castelino.

Does your child suffer from imposter syndrome? What are the root causes, telltale signs, and how can they be addressed? Welcome to Where Parents Talk. My name is Lianne Castelino.

Our guest today is a licensed psychologist who is an executive, career and life coach. Dr. Richard Orbé-Austin is also an entrepreneur, an author, and a father of two. He runs a private practice with his wife in New York City. Dr.

Orbé-Austin's newest book is called you'd Child's A Parent's Guide to Raising Children Without Imposter Syndrome. He joins us today from New York. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Thank you for having me on, Lianne. I'm excited to be here.

Such an interesting topic because I feel we are having this conversation at different levels, different strands of the imposter syndrome conversation in different parts of society today. On a more increasing level, you are a leading authority in this space. Let's start by having you define what imposter syndrome is.

And I'm glad that we started there because there are a lot of misconceptions. So imposter syndrome is first and foremost not a mental health disorder.

It's a phenomenon which is when someone believes that they are a fraud, they constantly overwork to prove that they fit in, they belong. They attribute their success to luck or key relationship. They tend to underestimate their own ability and overestimate the ability of others.

And they constantly live in this fear of being exposed as not good enough, not smart enough, and as a fraud.

So that begs the question, how can one differentiate between imposter syndrome and somebody who just has a lack of confidence or self esteem? How do we differentiate, especially for parents?

So this also is a critical question because oftentimes people will say, well, isn't it just about low self esteem or low self confidence?

And ultimately the difference is when we think about imposter syndrome, it is something that tends to develop early on based on the roles that children are given at a particular time. So either the smart one in the family, the hard working one, or just a survivor.

And so when we're thinking about their development and the difference between low self confidence and imposter syndrome, low self confidence tends to be domain specific. So they may feel like, you know, I'm not good at this thing or this particular area, but they may feel some level of confidence in other areas.

The imposter syndrome, they tend to feel globally that they may be a fraud.

And so when we're thinking about talking through to either our children or other people, it's really being able to understand, well, what are the underlying feelings that you have? Are you able to identify areas where you are successful?

If you ask someone with imposter syndrome what type of strengths or skills they have, they may be at a loss.

They may say, I don't have any, I've just been lucky versus someone who's had low self confidence and may feel like, well, I'm not good here at work, but I'm actually good making friends, or I'm good at doing A, B and C. And so we try to balance that out when we're looking at those two dynamics.

When you talk about early on, which you just outlined in that response, how early are we talking about here?

So it can start literally as early as, you know, defining particular roles.

So when a child is given a particular role in the family, so even if they were, say, 6 or 7, and everyone says, oh, you're much smarter than your brother, you're the smart one in the family. Your brother, he's hardworking and so he'll be able to make it, but you're the identified smart one. So it can be as early as possible.

Once we begin to define roles, it sends a message to the child as to who they may tend to be or expected to be within the family.

So in general terms, then, how prevalent is, is imposter syndrome today?

So the research tends to say that about 70% of people will experience imposter feelings at one point in their lives. And so that's a pretty fair amount.

And one of the things that we are always excited to chat about, imposter syndrome, is because many people who struggle with it tend to feel like they are suffering in silence because they're the only ones. So they tend to not talk about it because they feel ashamed. They feel like they're the only ones experiencing this.

But when we quote that number, you will then see that more than likely there are other people in your life who are struggling with some of these issues. And so it is nothing to be embarrassed about, it's nothing to be ashamed about. People will understand it if you're able to open up to them.

Any way of knowing in that 70% number, how many young people, young adults are directly affected?

That's a phenomenal question.

And one of the things that I will say is that for a long time when we talked about imposter syndrome, the belief was that men and women tended to experience it at equal levels, even though it was first coined by these two female psychologists who were working solely with a group of very successful women at a college in Georgia. And these were professors, these were graduate students. So a good deal of the time people felt that it was really women who suffered from it.

And then the research was able to be expanded to look at it about equal. Recently there has been talk about women experiencing it at slightly higher levels than men.

But in terms of young people, that hasn't necessarily been a key aspect of the research.

I think this is an area that needs further focus to really understand to your point, how early we can identify it and how many young people, percentage wise, are suffering with it.

Let's dive into key contributing factors and root causes of imposter syndrome, like how do we get here and how does it manifest?

So one of the first and foremost things are when we talk about early childhood.

And so it's oftentimes not to blame the caregiver or the parent, but to say that oftentimes the misconception is that, oh, imposter syndrome is caused by factors in toxic workplaces or things of that nature, as we've said, and as the research indicates, it happens very early on. And so one of the areas is the role that a child takes.

So if a child is identified as a smart one in the family for so many years, and then they meet some sort of adversity, say they don't do well, like when they get to high school and they start to, you know, fail or not do as well, they then begin to feel like, well, maybe I wasn't actually the smart one, maybe I'm a fraud. And that's where we see some of the imposter syndrome developing for that particular role.

For those who are identified as a hard working one, even if they did just as well academically as the quote, unquote, smart one, the message sent to them is the only way they will be successful is if they work or overwork to be successful because they do not have the academic skills. So for the hard working one, they tend to overwork. And we then see imposter syndrome develop in that way.

And then the person who's a survivor has not gotten any real feedback whether or not they're smart or hardworking. They tend to have suffered from some level of neglect.

So they're never really able to identify their strengths or their abilities and ultimately they then feel like they're just trying to survive. And that's where some of the imposterism comes in. So that's one aspect of how it develops in terms of roles.

Another way it develops is through some of the family dynamics that may happen. So if a parent is, say, narcissistic and everyone needs to cater to the needs of that particular person, then you will see a lot of people pleasing.

That really can be triggering ultimately and contribute to the development of imposter syndrome, as well as if there's a codependent type of family dynamic where there's an identified patient that everyone needs to cater to, whether it's a sick parent, a sick sibling, and the needs of that person take precedence over everything else.

And so that young person who might be dealing with or developing an imposter syndrome learns to really be silent and not necessarily identify their own needs or identify their own strengths.

There's so much that jumps to mind as you sort of break that down. And you know, for me, what comes to the fore are things like helicopter parenting and, you know, snowplow parenting.

There's a whole bunch of different other descriptions for it, but also toxic achievement culture.

So as somebody who's on the forefront of this and has been for the last number of years, over a decade, how are those concepts also impacting and contributing to the increased prevalence of imposter syndrome?

So this is actually the reason we were super excited to write this third book.

Because when we first wrote Own youn Greatness, our first book about imposter syndrome, many people came to us and said, can you write something for us as parents to figure out how to make sure our children don't develop?

And we live, as you well know now, in a hyper competitive environment where parents feel like as soon as the child is out of the womb, we need to get going to make sure that they achieve. And the message being sent to children is that they need to do, they need to please the parent. Right.

Ultimately, if you link achievement to love, then you will see some of that, you know, dynamic of either narcissism or, you know, these issues related to feeling like the only way I will be seen or valued is through my performance or through my achievement. So it contributes a great deal.

Because that young person feels like the only skills or ways that I actually have worth is if I'm achieving in that particular way. And if I don't achieve and I'm not pleasing, then I have no value. And maybe I am an imposter, maybe I'M not lovable.

So that tends to really contribute to some of the triggers for imposter syndrome.

It's such an easy trap to fall into as a parent. Right.

Like as you're outlining it, I think we've all done it, not in any malicious way, with any, you know, bad intent, but when you kind of lay it out like that, you can start to see how it can have an impact. So, like, what do you believe maintains and sustains imposter syndrome today in general and specifically among young people?

So when we talk about imposter syndrome and what sustains that, we typically talk about some toxic factors. And so if we talk about the workplace, it's, you know, having this particular dynamic of superstar, superstars versus scapegoats.

And it's the same dynamic with young people. It's like you feeling like one moment you can be a superstar, but then the next minute you are at risk of being a scapegoat.

And so when we think about it within the concept of young people, whether they're in a class, whether they're on a team, if they feel like they are not good enough and the only way that they can see actual worth is by being a superstar, then they will feel like, well, that day that I'm a scapegoat shows that I'm an imposter and I'm not good enough.

So when we have toxic factors like that, when we have burnout culture, when we talk about overwork and we've talked about both parents being burnt out, but young people being burnt out with the amount of workload that they have, both between their academic workload but also their extracurricular workloads, and feeling like they need to do so much to ensure that they are going to be going to the best college, they load up on everything. And so being able to really focus in on self care is also a critical aspect of this.

And so a lack of self care also contributes to imposter syndrome and sustains it because it's this belief that the only thing that you can do to prove your worth is to overwork, which typically leads to burnout.

So, Orbé-Austin, what do you believe and why do you believe it's important for parents to have an understanding of what imposter syndrome is, whether it directly affects their children themselves or not.

So one of the things that we feel so strong about, we, myself and my partner, Dr.

Lisa Orbe Austin, who have written all three, co written all three books, is that imposter syndrome is something that really causes People to suffer unnecessarily. There's this belief that it's just something that you have and you'll never get rid of.

And we want to change that notion because imposter syndrome has been linked to mental health concerns. Imposter syndrome has been linked to burnout. As we've talked about.

Imposter syndrome has been linked to people turning down opportunities for themselves, whether it's academic opportunities or work opportunities.

And so we want parents to be able to feel like they have the tools to really help their children not have to suffer with imposter syndrome as early as possible.

Because what we have found and what we understand are that people suffer with this early on, but it sometimes may not manifest to the point of them identifying it until they're in college or until they're in a work situation. And then they realize, okay, this is something that needs to be addressed.

We want you to be able to feel like I can intervene as early as possible to one, make sure it doesn't even develop in my child. And then two, if it does that I know and I have the tools and the resources and the wherewithal to really help them to conquer it.

You talk about when it manifests.

Can you take us through what that could look like, that realization that you may have imposter syndrome, whether you're a young person or as you alluded to, let's say, a young adult.

I'll start first with the young person, say a high achieving person in high school and they've gotten all these accolades and they are ready to go off to college. They may feel like the only reason I was successful in high school is I had good relationships with my teachers and I was lucky.

And so they may not actually attempt to pursue the school that they most wanted to get into. And they decide, well, I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, I'll never get in there.

So they turned down a particular opportunity to have a great collegiate experience and then choose something else because they were afraid that, well, if I go to this next level in college, I'm definitely going to be exposed as a fraud. And so I'm not good enough. So I'm not even going to try. So that happens for a young person in high school.

When we get to the stage of young adulthood, whether it's in college or then going off into the work world, you will see that dynamic play out where a young person feels like, again, if I have a job, I'm just lucky to have a job. And they will not necessarily try to advance either by asking for a raise, seeking another job, trying to be promoted.

They tend to overwork, so they're working harder than everyone else just to prove that they belong, even though the evidence indicates that they are smart enough that they are doing well. And so they're never comfortable feeling like, okay, I bring enough to the table to fit in and to belong.

And so they tend to then have extreme loyalty to a job, even if it's toxic, and they will not leave even if it impacts their mental health.

And so we want to really be, you know, ensure that they have an opportunity to understand what this looks like so that they can actually deal with it, so they can have as rich and as enriching of a life as possible.

You talk about the workplace, and the fact is that there have never been more generations coexisting on the planet in human history than we currently have. And the workplace is a really interesting sort of landscape to see how all those generations play against each other and sort of interact.

So take us through for the parent of, let's say, a young adult who's in their first, second job, starting their career, some of the key behaviors they may encounter. If they have a boss or a manager who themselves has imposter syndrome, what does that look like for the young person working for them?

So if you have. We, in our second book, your unstoppable greatness, talked about different types of bosses who might be dealing with imposter syndrome.

One of those types is the insecure boss who feels like the way that you succeed really indicates their ability as well. And so they tend to micromanage. They tend to overwork you because they're afraid that they will be exposed if you don't do well.

Then we have the prove it to me boss. The person who feels like every day with this person is an audition to prove that you belong.

No matter how well you do in your work projects and delivering all your different aspects, they always make it feel like, all right, it's not good enough. You need to prove it to me again that you belong.

And ultimately then you have the perfectionistic boss that no matter what you do, they are always going to expect perfection. And one mistake then sends them into a frenzy of saying, okay, this is really a concern to me. And what we want to differentiate are two things.

One, there's a difference between hard work and overwork.

So when a young person gets into, say, an industry like finance, they will work hard, but the overwork is when you look around and see that other people are not actually putting in as many hours as you are.

And the reason you may be putting in those hours are one, because your boss may be so insecure and be dealing with imposter syndrome and they're working you specifically hard, or because you're dealing with boss syndrome and you feel like you have to come in and be the earliest one there and the latest one to leave just to prove that you belong. That's one. And then two. There's also a difference between constructive feedback and toxic work behavior.

So we're not suggesting that if you make a mistake, you're not to then learn from it or be given feedback. It's when you feel like you can't make any mistakes at all and someone is so harsh in their feedback and criticism that it becomes toxic.

Your latest book is called your child's Greatness. I wonder if you could define greatness in this context. And how can parents help their children embrace their individual greatness?

So when we talk about. I love that question too, by the way.

So when we talk about greatness, we're differentiating it between perfection and greatness because I think oftentimes people strive for perfection and we oftentimes say, striving for perfection is an endeavor that will. You'll never be successful because no one is perfect. Striving for greatness means that you're always seeking to improve yourself.

On one hand, you're valuing where you are and the skills and the strengths that you have and fully internalizing that and at the same time thinking about, well, what else do I want to do in terms of development?

So when we talk about parents, we're talking about first and foremost helping them to appreciate where their child is relative to their strengths, their unique talents. Every child has strengths. Every child has unique talents.

I think the frustration sometimes for parents may be that those strengths and talents may not align with some of the things that they want the child to do, whether it's an extracurricular activity or a particular academic pursuit.

So once you're able to help your child understand and fully embrace and internalize their strengths and their unique talents, then you're on that journey for greatness. Because it's always being able to understand that you're going down a unique path with that child.

One of the most challenging things is we've talked about is, especially if you have more than one child, to not compare the two and to not say, okay, you're this, or your sibling did this.

And while some of that can be useful, it's being mindful of the Fact that that child's journey is unique to that child, and as much as you can support and embrace that without that comparison, then you can help them go down their own unique path to greatness. One child may be very musically oriented. Another may like theater or sports.

And so it's really being able to support that, give them the exposure that they need to understand what their unique interests are, while also embracing their gifts.

Now, in addition to your professional expertise as a psychologist, you also have a body of lived experience with imposter syndrome through your partner Lisa, who suffered with it. Can you take us through how that impacted you, what you learned from it, and how did you go about supporting her to overcome it?

So thank you for that question. So one of the things that I often talk about is 70% of people have imposter syndrome, but there's 30% that don't.

I tended to fall into that 30% that did not necessarily have those imposter feelings. So, one, I really needed to be able to appreciate her experience and to understand that, yes, she's extremely bright, she's extremely talented.

This is a woman with a Ph.D. from Columbia. And so to me, on the outside looking initially, I'm like, well, well, what do you mean?

You're not confident in who you are, and you feel like you're a fraud. So it's having the particular empathy to appreciate where that person is.

And so for me, it's really being able to understand her experience and then being able to understand what she needed from me as she worked to defeat the imposter syndrome. And it wasn't as easy as get over it or just defeat it today. It was really a process.

All right, so it's continuing to support her and looking at her strengths, her particular unique talents and gifts, really being able to reaffirm when she had toxic bosses that really tried to sustain her imposter syndrome, trying to counter that in her narrative and shifting her mindset in terms of the possibilities out there for her.

So, you know, I learned a lot from that journey with her to really appreciate when someone is dealing with imposter syndrome, that it is not something that can go away easily just because you want it to.

So building on that, then, you know, with your knowledge, your expertise, the lived experience, was there anything in there that then impacted how you went about parenting?

Well, one of the biggest things I think, for us, and that I realized and I would share, and I'm sure Lisa would.

Would not mind me sharing, is this notion of roles and really being able to appreciate that because I think in growing up, again, Lisa's extremely bright, but she was identified as the hard working one. So she always had the message that she needed to work hard because her other sibling was more naturally smarter than her. Right.

And so we were mindful of, as we're raising our two young girls to not have that, you know, fixed role kind of dynamic of saying, oh, you're so smart and she's the hard working one, that you can be hardworking and you can be smart.

And so it's always the messaging that we're considering when we're working with our two young girls as to what it is that they're embracing in terms of their narratives.

So are there specific parenting styles then that are more conducive to feeding into, sustaining and maintaining imposter syndrome than other parenting styles?

So we talk about this in the book as well. So the three primary styles that we often talk about are authoritative, authoritarian, and permissive.

So when we think about permissive, as the name implies, it's the parent that does not necessarily set strict boundaries or provide feedback in terms of what may be appropriate or not appropriate, or give the child feedback as to what they're doing well, not doing well. That style is one style that may tend to lead to imposter syndrome because it's back to the survivor type.

If they're neglected and not really given some of the tools they need to understand who they are. And then the authoritarian style, that style that is highly disciplined does not necessarily. The feedback may be more harsh.

There are very strict boundaries around how the child should act.

And so that leads to the people pleasing that we talked about before, where parents then feel, where children then feel like, I must do A, B and C to gain acceptance from my parent. The best parenting style we talk about is authoritative. And so it's a balance of both. Right.

So there's a level of boundary setting that is healthy, but there's also the ability to provide warmth and empathy and care for the child so that they feel that they are safe in the parenting dynamic.

And so ultimately, that is, I think, what we talk about when we talk about, you know, parenting styles and what may be more useful and helpful to avoiding imposter syndrome.

One of the challenges that many parents watching this interview or listening to it will no doubt come to is how do they go about helping develop confidence in their child without putting too much pressure on them, as we previously discussed.

So when we talk about this book, one of the other key aspects that we wanted to be able to communicate through this book is that you are doing your best as a parent. There's so much out there that makes us feel like we don't know what we're doing. We're going to ruin our child forever.

There's not an ability to really change or shift things. If we do something wrong, a child will be marked, you know, permanently.

One, we want you all to understand and appreciate how good of a job you are doing as a parent. Again, you're not perfect. None of us are perfect. There are times where we will make, you know, mistakes. We will learn from them.

But appreciating first and foremost what you're doing well is important.

And then two, when we talk about this question of helping children to develop confidence, first and foremost, I think parents underestimate their impact and influence in modeling that.

And so if a parent doesn't necessarily display or exhibit that level of confidence, then their child may, even if they don't think the child is paying attention, they beat themselves up, they make a mistake and say, oh, how could I have been so stupid to do that? Or this is ridiculous, can't get it. You want to be mindful of what you're communicating relative to your own own way of viewing yourself.

And then for the child, it's really about performance accomplishments in a way that is developmentally appropriate.

And I think this becomes the challenge because of, as we talk about, we're such in a hyper competitive environment where we're always comparing ourselves to that next person and that next person's child. And so it's hard for us to look inward first and say, how is my child doing compared to how they did X, you know, months ago?

And appreciating that level of growth and talking about it, and it may not be comparable to where the other child in their class is, but it is comparable to where they were.

And looking at that growth and acknowledging that growth and celebrating that growth is so critical to helping your young person fully internalize their strengths, their gifts, their talents, and to really appreciate the work and the, you know, the effort they put in to get to where they are.

If a child is already struggling with imposter syndrome, what are some of the first steps that the parent can take to help them overcome it?

One of the first steps is to really help the child to develop a different narrative relative to who they are.

So people with imposter syndrome tend to have what we call a thin narrative, which means that the story they tell themselves about themselves is not very expansive.

So the story usually goes, I was lucky to be able to be successful in anything that I've done, if I get good grades, if I do well in sport, I'm just lucky. And so it's first and foremost helping your child to have a more thickened narrative about their success.

So really being able to say, well, how do you think you were successful outside of luck? What were some of the things that you have in your toolbox?

Whether it's great interpersonal skills, great communication skills, great leadership skills, helping them to articulate that will allow them to have a different narrative about who they are and how successful they are relative to their effort and to their ability. So that's the one key thing.

Then the other thing that we talk about that tends to be unnoticed oftentimes with parents are that children who are dealing with imposter syndrome may have a great deal of what we call automatic negative thoughts. So these thoughts that are triggered when they're in a situation that causes their imposter syndrome to be heightened.

So if they're in a new situation and have to do something they are unfamiliar with, or if they are meeting new people, people, these tend to lead them to have particular types of ants, as we call them. So one of the ants is mind reading.

Mind reading ant tends to say, oh, these people think I don't belong here, then I'm not really smart or I'm not really good enough to be here. So they're probably making fun of me.

So there's a fortune telling ant, oh, if I go down this path and I do this thing, I'm not going to be successful. So I'm not even going to try.

So helping to understand what are some of the ants that your child is experiencing is very helpful to helping them to deal with their imposter syndrome.

Dr. Orbé-Austin, what would you tell parents in terms of what is the one takeaway that you'd like parents who read your child's greatness to leave with?

We want them to leave with the understanding that they have so much power and infl influence and supporting their children in all the different developmental stages that they will go through that oftentimes we may feel at a certain point as a bystander, as teachers and coaches and other people gain influence with our children and feel like, well, I don't have the skill set to write, you know, I'm not trained in this or in that to really be able to support my child or my child won't listen to me. But it's understanding that you are one of the primary influences on them and not taking that for granted.

And you will have the ability to impact their lives and impact their journey by supporting them through and preventing them from developing imposter syndrome.

So much important food for thought. Dr. Richard Orbe Austin, psychologist, coach, author of your Child's Greatness, A Parent's Guide to Raising Children without Imposter Syndrome.

We so appreciate your time and your perspective today. Thank you.

It was my pleasure. I appreciate the invitation. Thank you.