Tanner Weyland (00:04.783)

Hello and welcome to How to be a Better DM, the official podcast of Monsters.Rent. I'm here with Justin Lewis. Say hi, Justin. Hi, Justin. We are here today to talk about a fun little topic, basically, Dungeons and Villages, when and how to use either. So I mean, this topic, I've always find it interesting, like the composition of a campaign, you know?

Justin (00:13.631)

Hi Justin.

Tanner Weyland (00:33.535)

If you treat it like a like a sandwich, it's like, okay, what you know, it's a nice BLT. Do you put the tomatoes on first? Do you put you know, are you a maniac and you just put a bunch of bacon and just like a leaf of lettuce? You know, what do you do? And how do you kind of balance it? That's kind of what a lot of DMS have to do when it comes to being like, Hey, I want a really cool dungeon. But I also want to have some of the more role playing heavy

Villages and kind of switch it up. Have you ever thought about this kind of balance that you have Justin?

Justin (01:09.986)

I haven't necessarily thought of the balance, but I certainly have fallen into the blunders that we're going to talk about with each of these. And when you do, it's pretty annoying because you kind of kick yourself and be like, dang, that dungeon could have been so fun or that village could have been so fun. I will say, I definitely think one might be a little bit easier because, well, we'll get

I'll reveal all as we talk.

Tanner Weyland (01:42.847)

Exactly. So for the purpose of this discussion, just to give a little roadmap, we'll kind of dive into dungeons and villages or cities, you know, we're saying villages, but we mean any kind of settlement where it's going to be, you know, more NPC centric built. So that's kind of what we're thinking about when we think of village. And it could be any size could be a little, you know, three shacks by the side of the road, or it could be an entire city.

Surrounded by huge walls with giant palaces within it, right? And it just kind of the that's we're bundling that as one experience done on the other side dungeons now It's not always a dungeon per se but it's kind of like a curated Experience where you know, the adventuring party is going into one specific place and exploring, you know

And it's not somewhere they're just traveling through. It's like, no, it's, it's a specific kind of, uh, self-enclosed experience. Uh, so kind of getting into it, let's, let's talk about dungeons and what kind of makes a dungeon special.

Justin (02:50.622)

Yeah. And one other thing I'd like to also add, just sort of a caveat. These are traditional dungeons and villages. You could theoretically take whatever we're talking about, like the aspects, and apply them to the other one, right? For example, by nature, dungeons will be, or seem more railroad-y, right?

Justin (03:19.85)

Choices have been made and now choices are restricted, right? Like once Aragorn follows the path of the dead and he goes into the mountain, the ghosts know he's there, right? He can't just, well, he could just turn around and walk out, but those are his only two choices. Proceed, stay where he is. I guess three choices or go backward. But, but theoretically you could make a village more railroad-y, but we're going to talk in general terms. So that's really the first.

point of a dungeon and kind of what it is once you're in it, it's either stay where you are, which is kind of not really a choice, go forward or go back.

Tanner Weyland (03:58.467)

Exactly and once you're at the dungeon you can kind of expect You know, I think it's gonna be reskinned and you're going to as a DM, you know We talked about this before you want to give a variety of experiences, you know, don't have every combat be the same Have interesting mechanics and include traps here and there and make sure they're not all the same either But that's kind of what you're expecting in the dungeon. You're gonna expect a lot of combats with various creatures

A lot of traps that or just you know obstacles and skill checks that the party is gonna have to deal with and of course loot. I think that that's Another big difference between villages and dungeons is a dungeon So long as you beat the enemy or the challenge or whatever it is The treasure is just sitting there. You don't have to barter. You don't have to pay anything you paid with your time And and your characters, you know

bodies essentially, right? And I think that's kind of you, that's what you expect. And yeah, it might be within a druids ancient enclave or something or it could be in a crypt, you know far below the city, you know, or whatever it is. The skin is going to look different and the types of monsters is going to be specific to the environment, but it's still kind of those elements, you know.

Justin (05:22.494)

Absolutely. Kind of to that point, you know, a traditional way of making dungeons is coming up with either the map first or kind of the end goal first, right? So if they're going into this crypt to destroy a lich, you know, you know that they're going to fight the lich at some point, unless they leave the crypt, right? That's just how it is. And then you sort of fill everything in

challenges to make it more difficult and things like that. So with all that said, compared to a village, a dungeon is a lot more obvious in terms of goals, right? People don't necessarily go into a dungeon and then halfway through be like, wait, like when we get to the end, what are we gonna do? It's like, no, we're gonna kill the baddie and take the loot, right? Like that's the dungeons part of Dungeons and Dragons.

Tanner Weyland (06:19.511)

Exactly. And so I find that dungeons are, they're nice in one way and they're difficult in another. First, they're really nice in the way that it's simple. You know, the players, like I was running a campaign and I had a dungeon.

You know, this was one of those campaigns that kind of sputtered out pretty early on because school happened and all this other stuff, right? But we had gone through it opened up with essentially a dungeon crawl, you know, kind of like a smaller to medium sized one took a few sessions and And then it was like a couple villages in a row and they the players like afterwards. They were like, Oh, I really like that initial dungeon.

And I think that the reason why is because like, Hey, when you're just opening up to adventure, uh, especially if your party isn't amazing at role play, you don't scratch that. Even if they are amazing at role play role playing, I think that you have, there's a lot of difficulty in launching right into role playing. If you haven't had kind of those more like grindy dungeons that you have to go through, right? You kind of need experiences.

in order to really enjoy a village. And I think dungeons are a perfect place for that.

Justin (07:40.778)

I couldn't agree more and I actually think based on what you said, it sparked kind of this thought in my mind that I often talk about galvanizing experiences at the beginning of campaigns or with one shots that force the party to be a party, right? And those galvanizing experiences can be, you know, shared trauma or they could literally be we've all been hired to do the same thing. And

Tanner Weyland (08:08.98)

Yeah.

Justin (08:10.134)

To your point, Tanner, I think doing dungeons at the beginning of a campaign is very important because it does allow the party to sort of form those bonds. And even thinking, you can do dungeons in sort of a very non-dungeony way. So the example I'm thinking of is the Erois campaign of high rollers. They're a group out of the UK, and I've been listening to them

lately and spoiler alert if you haven't listened to it but their campaign starts with session one they're on an airship and they're being attacked right and basically chapter one of this campaign the airship crashes in the lowlands which is a wild and inhospitable place right and there's like five or six survivors fibers including the party

Actually, there might be more because I think there were NPCs. But in a larger sense, that is a dungeon because their options are we have to find civilization or we're going to starve, be attacked by wild elves, things like that, right? And I might be kind of expanding the definition a little bit, but you can do things like that.

And I do think that starting campaigns with a dungeon is a very good idea. Because again, it does give everyone that clear reason of why are we traveling together? Why are we cooperating? Because everyone always likes to pick those characters that are mysterious and don't trust anyone, you know.

Tanner Weyland (09:53.531)

Yeah. And, and, you know, I think for all the strengths of a dungeon, because like you mentioned, it's, it's right in the name. As much as people love dragons, dungeons comes first. Uh, and, but I think that the issue is that sometimes they can be fatiguing, especially for a DM, but also for players, right? Where it's like, if, if it's big enough, well, I mean, caveat, if your players come in being like, Hey, I want to do a huge dungeon, you know.

Uh, just like multi-level and that's basically the entire campaign's one big dungeon that that's, that's the exception. If you're just including a dungeon as part of the campaign, if you do too long of a dungeon, then it's just, it's a lot of combats. It's a lot of the party being essentially on edge the entire time, right. Being like, Oh, you know, stealth into the next room for like 10 sessions in a row. You know,

And it just becomes so fatiguing. And so it's like, Hey, you know, pick your battles, uh, specifically by, you know, making it so that not every dungeon is super long, uh, occasionally, I think it's totally worth it to do a longer dungeon, especially if you've got really big consequences and if you build it up, then the players are like, Oh, okay. Prepare well. Cause you know, there's no coming back or not for a while, at least then, you know, a longer campaign can be fine.

It'll still be fatiguing, but it's kind of like the hard days work type of fatigue. Otherwise you don't want to do that consistently in my opinion.

Justin (11:24.138)

Yeah. I would actually add two examples of my current campaign. Um, so I had my group in the underdark and my thought process was, well, in the underdark, you don't really, you guys don't know where you're going. So you're, you're literally wandering around. Uh, and I was making the map as I went, basically rolling on random tables to see what rooms were, were next. And they weren't keeping a map, right?

And suffice it to say it went on far too long. And I did that because I was like, yeah, I want them to feel the frustration of being in the underdark, right? Being lost. But I think it failed because you don't want your players to feel that you want the characters to feel that. So exactly right, Tanner. You don't want to do too big of a dungeon, but you said something very important. If you prepare them for the scope of it and the scale.

I think that's the secret sauce.

Tanner Weyland (12:26.203)

Exactly, you know, because any type of here's the great thing. We talk about Dungeons and Dragons being about storytelling and it's absolutely right and stories come in all kinds of shapes and sizes, but as a general rule, you know, if you're not really building a dungeon up, then maybe make it small to medium length, you know, and then for longer ones, you want to give that kind of a gravitas to it beforehand.

Um, but, but enough about dungeons, let's talk about villages and cities. Um, I think it's no surprise that first and foremost, they're just much more role playing focused, right? You don't go into a dungeon expecting to talk with every mimic who's pretending to be a chest, right? You go into a dungeon to just, you know, hack and slash and find stuff. Villages. It's like, no, that's, that's the key difference is like people. NPCs and you're going to be talking a lot.

and how you kind of utilize those role-playing opportunities can be the difference between a very boring city or village and a very exciting one, you know?

Justin (13:33.482)

Yeah, absolutely. Kind of what I was saying before, you know, Aragorn goes into the path of the dead. He's in the dungeon per se. It's not exactly the same thing, but his choices are stay put, move forward or go backwards in a, in a city, a village, a settlement. Your decisions are, uh, go forward, stay put, go backward, go right, go left, go up, go down, go inside, go outside that, you know, there's a lot more choices. And.

To this point, as I said with a dungeon, the game mechanics were a lot more obvious with a dungeon, right? There are traps that cause things. In a settlement, you have more choice, right? And because of that, you're...

The game mechanics aren't as obvious. You might gain favor in the eyes of a baron because you did something for them, which isn't a direct game mechanic, but it's something that your dungeon master or you might be factoring in because you slaughtered this orc that was holding this person hostage or something like that.

It's sort of a subtle game mechanic that's not so obvious, but it still has impact. That's another aspect of villages and cities that is very different than traditional dungeons.

Tanner Weyland (15:04.323)

Exactly. And I think, I think if you look at it the right way, then Villages provides you a lot more creativity, especially where, you know, like you were saying, the mechanics aren't obvious. So make your own mechanics, and specifically, make it in a way that provides both direction and development for characters. Because I think that's where Villages really shine, where it's like

if you look at a dungeon in terms of like, oh, that's a place where they get kind of galvanized together as a party, the place where they grow as individuals is in a city, you know, in a village, that's where the characters can be like, hey, I'm gonna go pray at the nearest, you know, temple of the God that they worship, right? Or they're going to go look for a specific type of equipment that they're looking for. Or maybe they're, they're like, hey, I want to go find

you know, the best pie in the city or whatever it is, right? The point is, is that in a city, if you encourage it, players can really get connected with their characters. They can get really invested in their characters, uh, personal, you know, goals and aspirations and growth. And that's, you know, that's just such a great, uh, part of it. And in terms of the mechanics being more fluid, uh, you know, I think that in a city and once again, just as a.

caveat here, cities also should be, you know, you shouldn't keep a player in a city too long, you know, um, kind of same as a dungeon, uh, they should go out and then come back kind of thing. But with that in mind, uh, you should be willing to kind of play around with some interesting mechanics, like, Hey, maybe your players want to start up a food cart or a business, or they want to, you know, go and study at the local library and like get something out of it.

Justin (16:34.312)

Heh.

Tanner Weyland (16:58.639)

Villages, you know, if you're creative, they can be so much more than just a place where they get a couple side quests from some needy passerbys and also buy equipment from the local store, right? They can be something where you actually do real things that we do in life, right? But for a party of players, right?

Justin (17:20.21)

Absolutely. And I think in a city, it is the time to really pay attention to those moments where your players express sort of an interest of their character that might seem unorthodox or kind of like a waste of time. Go full in on that, right? If someone's like, you know, like my character likes animals, so maybe they would want to go see a zoo. Spend time making some pretty cool encounters at the zoo.

where they could actually make some progress in their character's life. Like they could maybe find an animal companion or a secret treasure or something, like treat their simple interests as important because then they'll share them more often and they'll kind of go down those rabbit holes. And also kind of going back to what you were saying about your own game mechanics. I think one of those that

we're going to talk about on a future episode is character reputation. And, uh, sorry, my computer just, did I cut out there? Okay. Yeah. My computer just was like, Nope, I'm going to sleep. Anyways, um, character reputation can be a very powerful mechanic, especially in a city because there's people with whom you can gain reputation or lose it. Right.

Tanner Weyland (18:30.895)

You're good.

Tanner Weyland (18:49.707)

Yeah, exactly. And I think that, you know, aside from developing personal character arcs, developing relationships with NPCs, that can't be understated, right? Because it's like, hey, it character reputation is important on the city wide level. And I think that's really fun. But also like with individual characters, you know, in video games, they do it really well, where they're like, Oh,

You kind of have to reach a certain level of like favorability with an NPC. And then that unlocks different opportunities or, or whatever, you know. And I think that we, as DMs, when there's a city, I feel like it's actually worthwhile to kind of create, you know, a little, you know, a little, uh, level. Uh, for some, at least for some of the major NPCs, right. That they're going to be interacting with on a regular basis and kind of make it so that they are.

not only encouraged to develop themselves, but also develop relationships with NPCs by doing like side quests and stuff. And I think side quests is, you know, something that you should really emphasize in general in a bigger city. Because it's like, you know, with a main quest, you kind of think of it as continuously going forward and moving on to the next place and the next place after that.

in a city you don't especially if it's bigger, you don't want to go there, visit once, and then just never use it again. You know, especially if the players haven't had the time to really wring it of all its good, you know, opportunities. And so it's nice in a city to, like you were saying, it's like, hey, make essentially a side outing, or a side quest of going to the zoo, or oh, hey, my uncle's farm, I haven't heard from him in a while.

Could you help me? You know, and you just really, it's a chance for you to play around with different, you know, opportunities and kind of quest lines that aren't just the main big earth shattering quest, you know?

Justin (20:56.99)

Absolutely. Thinking about this and thinking about some of the challenges that you will probably encounter when running cities in your game. I'm just thinking about some of the challenges I've had in the first one is it's really easy for the one player who usually...

You can see my double chin this way.

2

Hello and welcome to How to be a Better

DM, the official podcast of Monsters.Rent.

3

I'm here with Justin Lewis.

4

Say hi, Justin.

5

Hi, Justin.

6

We are here today to talk about a fun

little topic, basically, Dungeons and

7

Villages, when and how to use either.

8

So I mean, this topic, I've always find it

interesting, like the composition of a

9

campaign, you know?

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If you treat it like a like a sandwich,

it's like, okay, what you know, it's a

11

nice BLT.

12

Do you put the tomatoes on first?

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Do you put you know, are you a maniac and

you just put a bunch of bacon and just

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like a leaf of lettuce?

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You know, what do you do?

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And how do you kind of balance it?

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That's kind of what a lot of DMS have to

do when it comes to being like, Hey, I

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want a really cool dungeon.

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But I also want to have some of the more

role playing heavy

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Villages and kind of switch it up.

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Have you ever thought about this kind of

balance that you have Justin?

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I haven't necessarily thought of the

balance, but I certainly have fallen into

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the blunders that we're going to talk

about with each of these.

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And when you do, it's pretty annoying

because you kind of kick yourself and be

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like, dang, that dungeon could have been

so fun or that village could have been so

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fun.

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I will say, I definitely think one might

be a little bit easier because, well,

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we'll get

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I'll reveal all as we talk.

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Exactly.

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So for the purpose of this discussion,

just to give a little roadmap, we'll kind

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of dive into dungeons and villages or

cities, you know, we're saying villages,

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but we mean any kind of settlement where

it's going to be, you know, more NPC

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centric built.

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So that's kind of what we're thinking

about when we think of village.

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And it could be any size could be a

little, you know, three shacks by the side

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of the road, or it could be an entire

city.

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Surrounded by huge walls with giant

palaces within it, right?

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And it just kind of the that's we're

bundling that as one experience done on

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the other side dungeons now It's not

always a dungeon per se but it's kind of

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like a curated Experience where you know,

the adventuring party is going into one

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specific place and exploring, you know

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And it's not somewhere they're just

traveling through.

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It's like, no, it's, it's a specific kind

of, uh, self-enclosed experience.

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Uh, so kind of getting into it, let's,

let's talk about dungeons and what kind of

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makes a dungeon special.

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Yeah.

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And one other thing I'd like to also add,

just sort of a caveat.

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These are traditional dungeons and

villages.

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You could theoretically take whatever

we're talking about, like the aspects, and

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apply them to the other one, right?

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For example, by nature, dungeons will be,

or seem more railroad-y, right?

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Choices have been made and now choices are

restricted, right?

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Like once Aragorn follows the path of the

dead and he goes into the mountain, the

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ghosts know he's there, right?

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He can't just, well, he could just turn

around and walk out, but those are his

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only two choices.

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Proceed, stay where he is.

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I guess three choices or go backward.

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But, but theoretically you could make a

village more railroad-y, but we're going

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to talk in general terms.

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So that's really the first.

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point of a dungeon and kind of what it is

once you're in it, it's either stay where

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you are, which is kind of not really a

choice, go forward or go back.

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Exactly and once you're at the dungeon you

can kind of expect You know, I think it's

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gonna be reskinned and you're going to as

a DM, you know We talked about this before

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you want to give a variety of experiences,

you know, don't have every combat be the

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same Have interesting mechanics and

include traps here and there and make sure

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they're not all the same either But that's

kind of what you're expecting in the

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dungeon.

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You're gonna expect a lot of combats with

various creatures

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A lot of traps that or just you know

obstacles and skill checks that the party

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is gonna have to deal with and of course

loot.

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I think that that's Another big difference

between villages and dungeons is a dungeon

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So long as you beat the enemy or the

challenge or whatever it is The treasure

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is just sitting there.

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You don't have to barter.

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You don't have to pay anything you paid

with your time And and your characters,

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you know

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bodies essentially, right?

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And I think that's kind of you, that's

what you expect.

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And yeah, it might be within a druids

ancient enclave or something or it could

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be in a crypt, you know far below the

city, you know, or whatever it is.

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The skin is going to look different and

the types of monsters is going to be

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specific to the environment, but it's

still kind of those elements, you know.

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Absolutely.

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Kind of to that point, you know, a

traditional way of making dungeons is

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coming up with either the map first or

kind of the end goal first, right?

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So if they're going into this crypt to

destroy a lich, you know, you know that

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they're going to fight the lich at some

point, unless they leave the crypt, right?

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That's just how it is.

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And then you sort of fill everything in

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challenges to make it more difficult and

things like that.

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So with all that said, compared to a

village, a dungeon is a lot more obvious

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in terms of goals, right?

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People don't necessarily go into a dungeon

and then halfway through be like, wait,

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like when we get to the end, what are we

gonna do?

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It's like, no, we're gonna kill the baddie

and take the loot, right?

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Like that's the dungeons part of Dungeons

and Dragons.

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Exactly.

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And so I find that dungeons are, they're

nice in one way and they're difficult in

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another.

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First, they're really nice in the way that

it's simple.

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You know, the players, like I was running

a campaign and I had a dungeon.

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You know, this was one of those campaigns

that kind of sputtered out pretty early on

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because school happened and all this other

stuff, right?

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But we had gone through it opened up with

essentially a dungeon crawl, you know,

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kind of like a smaller to medium sized one

took a few sessions and And then it was

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like a couple villages in a row and they

the players like afterwards.

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They were like, Oh, I really like that

initial dungeon.

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And I think that the reason why is because

like, Hey, when you're just opening up to

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adventure, uh, especially if your party

isn't amazing at role play, you don't

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scratch that.

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Even if they are amazing at role play role

playing, I think that you have, there's a

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lot of difficulty in launching right into

role playing.

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If you haven't had kind of those more like

grindy dungeons that you have to go

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through, right?

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You kind of need experiences.

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in order to really enjoy a village.

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And I think dungeons are a perfect place

for that.

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I couldn't agree more and I actually think

based on what you said, it sparked kind of

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this thought in my mind that I often talk

about galvanizing experiences at the

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beginning of campaigns or with one shots

that force the party to be a party, right?

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And those galvanizing experiences can be,

you know, shared trauma or they could

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literally be we've all been hired to do

the same thing.

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And

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To your point, Tanner, I think doing

dungeons at the beginning of a campaign is

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very important because it does allow the

party to sort of form those bonds.

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And even thinking, you can do dungeons in

sort of a very non-dungeony way.

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So the example I'm thinking of is the

Erois campaign of high rollers.

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They're a group out of the UK, and I've

been listening to them

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lately and spoiler alert if you haven't

listened to it but their campaign starts

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with session one they're on an airship and

they're being attacked right and basically

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chapter one of this campaign the airship

crashes in the lowlands which is a wild

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and inhospitable place right and there's

like five or six survivors fibers

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including the party

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Actually, there might be more because I

think there were NPCs.

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But in a larger sense, that is a dungeon

because their options are we have to find

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civilization or we're going to starve, be

attacked by wild elves, things like that,

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right?

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And I might be kind of expanding the

definition a little bit, but you can do

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things like that.

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And I do think that starting campaigns

with a dungeon is a very good idea.

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Because again, it does give everyone that

clear reason of why are we traveling

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together?

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Why are we cooperating?

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Because everyone always likes to pick

those characters that are mysterious and

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don't trust anyone, you know.

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Yeah.

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And, and, you know, I think for all the

strengths of a dungeon, because like you

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mentioned, it's, it's right in the name.

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As much as people love dragons, dungeons

comes first.

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Uh, and, but I think that the issue is

that sometimes they can be fatiguing,

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especially for a DM, but also for players,

right?

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Where it's like, if, if it's big enough,

well, I mean, caveat, if your players come

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in being like, Hey, I want to do a huge

dungeon, you know.

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Uh, just like multi-level and that's

basically the entire campaign's one big

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dungeon that that's, that's the exception.

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If you're just including a dungeon as part

of the campaign, if you do too long of a

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dungeon, then it's just, it's a lot of

combats.

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It's a lot of the party being essentially

on edge the entire time, right.

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Being like, Oh, you know, stealth into the

next room for like 10 sessions in a row.

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You know,

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And it just becomes so fatiguing.

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And so it's like, Hey, you know, pick your

battles, uh, specifically by, you know,

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making it so that not every dungeon is

super long, uh, occasionally, I think it's

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totally worth it to do a longer dungeon,

especially if you've got really big

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consequences and if you build it up, then

the players are like, Oh, okay.

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Prepare well.

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Cause you know, there's no coming back or

not for a while, at least then, you know,

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a longer campaign can be fine.

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It'll still be fatiguing, but it's kind of

like the hard days work type of fatigue.

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Otherwise you don't want to do that

consistently in my opinion.

174

I would actually add two examples of my

current campaign.

175

Um, so I had my group in the underdark and

my thought process was, well, in the

176

underdark, you don't really, you guys

don't know where you're going.

177

So you're, you're literally wandering

around.

178

Uh, and I was making the map as I went,

basically rolling on random tables to see

179

what rooms were, were next.

180

And they weren't keeping a map, right?

181

And suffice it to say it went on far too

long.

182

And I did that because I was like, yeah, I

want them to feel the frustration of being

183

in the underdark, right?

184

Being lost.

185

But I think it failed because you don't

want your players to feel that you want

186

the characters to feel that.

187

So exactly right, Tanner.

188

You don't want to do too big of a dungeon,

but you said something very important.

189

If you prepare them for the scope of it

and the scale.

190

I think that's the secret sauce.

191

Exactly, you know, because any type of

here's the great thing.

192

We talk about Dungeons and Dragons being

about storytelling and it's absolutely

193

right and stories come in all kinds of

shapes and sizes, but as a general rule,

194

you know, if you're not really building a

dungeon up, then maybe make it small to

195

medium length, you know, and then for

longer ones, you want to give that kind of

196

a gravitas to it beforehand.

197

Um, but, but enough about dungeons, let's

talk about villages and cities.

198

Um, I think it's no surprise that first

and foremost, they're just much more role

199

playing focused, right?

200

You don't go into a dungeon expecting to

talk with every mimic who's pretending to

201

be a chest, right?

202

You go into a dungeon to just, you know,

hack and slash and find stuff.

203

Villages.

204

It's like, no, that's, that's the key

difference is like people.

205

NPCs and you're going to be talking a lot.

206

and how you kind of utilize those

role-playing opportunities can be the

207

difference between a very boring city or

village and a very exciting one, you know?

208

Yeah, absolutely.

209

Kind of what I was saying before, you

know, Aragorn goes into the path of the

210

dead.

211

He's in the dungeon per se.

212

It's not exactly the same thing, but his

choices are stay put, move forward or go

213

backwards in a, in a city, a village, a

settlement.

214

Your decisions are, uh, go forward, stay

put, go backward, go right, go left, go

215

up, go down, go inside, go outside that,

you know, there's a lot more choices.

216

And.

217

To this point, as I said with a dungeon,

the game mechanics were a lot more obvious

218

with a dungeon, right?

219

There are traps that cause things.

220

In a settlement, you have more choice,

right?

221

And because of that, you're...

222

The game mechanics aren't as obvious.

223

You might gain favor in the eyes of a

baron because you did something for them,

224

which isn't a direct game mechanic, but

it's something that your dungeon master or

225

you might be factoring in because you

slaughtered this orc that was holding this

226

person hostage or something like that.

227

It's sort of a subtle game mechanic that's

not so obvious, but it still has impact.

228

That's another aspect of villages and

cities that is very different than

229

traditional dungeons.

230

Exactly.

231

And I think, I think if you look at it the

right way, then Villages provides you a

232

lot more creativity, especially where, you

know, like you were saying, the mechanics

233

aren't obvious.

234

So make your own mechanics, and

specifically, make it in a way that

235

provides both direction and development

for characters.

236

Because I think that's where Villages

really shine, where it's like

237

if you look at a dungeon in terms of like,

oh, that's a place where they get kind of

238

galvanized together as a party, the place

where they grow as individuals is in a

239

city, you know, in a village, that's where

the characters can be like, hey, I'm gonna

240

go pray at the nearest, you know, temple

of the God that they worship, right?

241

Or they're going to go look for a specific

type of equipment that they're looking

242

for.

243

Or maybe they're, they're like, hey, I

want to go find

244

you know, the best pie in the city or

whatever it is, right?

245

The point is, is that in a city, if you

encourage it, players can really get

246

connected with their characters.

247

They can get really invested in their

characters, uh, personal, you know, goals

248

and aspirations and growth.

249

And that's, you know, that's just such a

great, uh, part of it.

250

And in terms of the mechanics being more

fluid, uh, you know, I think that in a

251

city and once again, just as a.

252

caveat here, cities also should be, you

know, you shouldn't keep a player in a

253

city too long, you know, um, kind of same

as a dungeon, uh, they should go out and

254

then come back kind of thing.

255

But with that in mind, uh, you should be

willing to kind of play around with some

256

interesting mechanics, like, Hey, maybe

your players want to start up a food cart

257

or a business, or they want to, you know,

go and study at the local library and like

258

get something out of it.

259

Villages, you know, if you're creative,

they can be so much more than just a place

260

where they get a couple side quests from

some needy passerbys and also buy

261

equipment from the local store, right?

262

They can be something where you actually

do real things that we do in life, right?

263

But for a party of players, right?

264

Absolutely.

265

And I think in a city, it is the time to

really pay attention to those moments

266

where your players express sort of an

interest of their character that might

267

seem unorthodox or kind of like a waste of

time.

268

Go full in on that, right?

269

If someone's like, you know, like my

character likes animals, so maybe they

270

would want to go see a zoo.

271

Spend time making some pretty cool

encounters at the zoo.

272

where they could actually make some

progress in their character's life.

273

Like they could maybe find an animal

companion or a secret treasure or

274

something, like treat their simple

interests as important because then

275

they'll share them more often and they'll

kind of go down those rabbit holes.

276

And also kind of going back to what you

were saying about your own game mechanics.

277

I think one of those that

278

we're going to talk about on a future

episode is character reputation.

279

And, uh, sorry, my computer just, did I

cut out there?

280

Okay.

281

Yeah.

282

My computer just was like, Nope, I'm going

to sleep.

283

Anyways, um, character reputation can be a

very powerful mechanic, especially in a

284

city because there's people with whom you

can gain reputation or lose it.

285

Right.

286

Yeah, exactly.

287

And I think that, you know, aside from

developing personal character arcs,

288

developing relationships with NPCs, that

can't be understated, right?

289

Because it's like, hey, it character

reputation is important on the city wide

290

level.

291

And I think that's really fun.

292

But also like with individual characters,

you know, in video games, they do it

293

really well, where they're like, Oh,

294

You kind of have to reach a certain level

of like favorability with an NPC.

295

And then that unlocks different

opportunities or, or whatever, you know.

296

And I think that we, as DMs, when there's

a city, I feel like it's actually

297

worthwhile to kind of create, you know, a

little, you know, a little, uh, level.

298

Uh, for some, at least for some of the

major NPCs, right.

299

That they're going to be interacting with

on a regular basis and kind of make it so

300

that they are.

301

not only encouraged to develop themselves,

but also develop relationships with NPCs

302

by doing like side quests and stuff.

303

And I think side quests is, you know,

something that you should really emphasize

304

in general in a bigger city.

305

Because it's like, you know, with a main

quest, you kind of think of it as

306

continuously going forward and moving on

to the next place and the next place after

307

that.

308

in a city you don't especially if it's

bigger, you don't want to go there, visit

309

once, and then just never use it again.

310

You know, especially if the players

haven't had the time to really wring it of

311

all its good, you know, opportunities.

312

And so it's nice in a city to, like you

were saying, it's like, hey, make

313

essentially a side outing, or a side quest

of going to the zoo, or oh, hey, my

314

uncle's farm, I haven't heard from him in

a while.

315

Could you help me?

316

You know, and you just really, it's a

chance for you to play around with

317

different, you know, opportunities and

kind of quest lines that aren't just the

318

main big earth shattering quest, you know?

319

Absolutely.

320

Thinking about this and thinking about

some of the challenges that you will

321

probably encounter when running cities in

your game.

322

I'm just thinking about some of the

challenges I've had in the first one is

323

it's really easy for the one player who

usually doesn't kind of speak up.

324

It's really easy for that one player to

sort of fall back and take a back seat to

325

everyone else.

326

So I'd highly encourage you to

327

Ask each player individually, even in

between sessions, what are you planning on

328

doing this next session?

329

What are errands you're going to want to

run?

330

Places you're going to want to go

shopping.

331

Asking that can give you a lot of ideas

for how to run the game.

332

Second thing I'd say is it's super easy.

333

It's too easy for your entire party to

split up.

334

I've had multiple sessions where we were

running.

335

I was running my campaign.

336

while the players were in water deep, the

characters were in water deep, and every

337

character was basically doing their own

thing, and it sort of set a pattern for

338

like the next 20 sessions, which really

annoyed me, because even when they're in

339

the Astral Sea, they're all like doing

their own thing, it was super annoying.

340

So I would say, when you ask each player,

what do you wanna do?

341

Okay, what do you wanna do?

342

Okay, and you get kind of that list, make

at least two,

343

You know, like every point of interest

should be next to at least one other point

344

of interest of another character.

345

So that way it just makes sense for them

to travel together just conveniently.

346

It's going to save you a lot of headache

because then you're going to be dealing

347

with groups of two, groups of three,

rather than one person, one person, one

348

person, one person.

349

At least that's what I've seen in my

experience.

350

Yeah, absolutely.

351

And, and you know, it might be nice to be,

to kind of just push that along.

352

There's, there's easy ways to make that

happen, right?

353

You can be like, Hey, okay.

354

So you want to do, uh, you want to go to

the, to this bakery cause you heard a

355

rumor and you want to go to the, uh, dark

information guild, uh, and actually

356

they're right by each other.

357

It's in the, yeah, exactly.

358

Right.

359

Uh, they, uh, they bake the information

into the pies.

360

Um,

361

Dark pies.

362

you know, you could be like, Hey, you're

both over there.

363

So let's say that you guys both go over

there together.

364

Don't give them an option.

365

It should be like, so you guys are going

over there together.

366

Great.

367

And then the other two you can do

similars, right?

368

Uh, and you know, just kind of talking

about, about potential pitfalls and

369

villages, same as, you know, the dungeon

it's like, Oh, it can be too long.

370

Uh, I think, uh, villages can be too

samey.

371

And I mean this in the way that like, you

know, dungeons typically have their own

372

characteristics and their own setting.

373

How many times does a village just appear

like an ancient European village in your

374

mind and in the minds of the players?

375

It, cause it's like, oh, you're, you know,

they go to a village and they pass the

376

city walls and there's, you know, probably

horse carts and carriages and mud on the

377

street, you know, and it, and it just gets

378

too samey and it's like hey if they're

gonna be in a in a city or a village for a

379

while why not make it a dwarven village

where you know they've got stonework out

380

the wazoo and they you know it's at the

base of an active volcano you know just

381

you want to still put time into you know

discussing the scene setting and making it

382

play a role in everything that the players

are doing you know

383

Absolutely.

384

You don't want them to forget any

particular city.

385

And they probably won't because of the

experiences that the characters will have,

386

but you don't want them to forget the

interests or the uniqueness of each city.

387

You want them to think, wow, Waterdeep was

like the first big city we went to, and it

388

has that crime ring.

389

Red Lark was where we fought that.

390

earth priest and he caved in the center of

the, you know, very unique experiences,

391

but also if possible setting pieces that

invoke all five senses.

392

Yeah, exactly.

393

Cause you know, you gave some great

examples there.

394

You can make, you can add flavor in so

many ways and you can do it in ways that

395

actually add fun to the game as well.

396

Right.

397

And it's not just, you know, fully just

you saying something about it.

398

It's like, no, the players are

experiencing it.

399

Right.

400

If you're in a city that's crime-ridden

and every shopkeeper is like, Hey, are you

401

just going out at this time of night?

402

You sure?

403

You know, and if like the players multiple

times run into like pickpockets or

404

something, you know, just regular basis.

405

Um, and they're like, they get back to the

hotel like every other day and they're

406

like, dang it, I'm losing some, I missed

some coins, you know?

407

Uh, or if they're like, if they go into,

you know, if they have to roll endurance

408

checks, you know, based on like the, uh,

ice cold temperatures outside when they're

409

not inside of a tent.

410

then that also adds, you know, easy flavor

because there's a mechanic tied into that.

411

And I think that if you think about

villages that way, then it can actually

412

be, uh, it can have some of the good parts

of a dungeon in the way that it's not

413

purely role playing, you know?

414

Absolutely.

415

I think the secret sauce to both of these

is to take the traditional way they do it

416

and then sprinkle in a bit of the

opposite.

417

So for dungeons, to make it a really good

dungeon, you keep it fairly obvious,

418

fairly simple.

419

You know what the goal is.

420

Sprinkle in a little bit of twists and

some role playing here and there and some

421

lore, right?

422

Things that you don't

423

that you'd expect more of from

role-playing situations.

424

And the dungeons suddenly becomes really

interesting.

425

With the village and the city sprinkling

some interesting game mechanics or some

426

points of interest, some opportunities to

gain some loot, and it suddenly becomes a

427

much more interesting place because there

are things that you can do and potential

428

danger and things like that.

429

And you're sort of having the best of both

worlds, I think.

430

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

431

And one thing that I think a village or

city could really gain from it, and you

432

kind of have to play it by ear with this,

is just making sure that the players don't

433

get stuck there too long.

434

Because if they do, then a few things can

happen.

435

One, they can lose the main thread, where

they get so focused on side quests.

436

And sadly, as much as those side quests

are fun, if players spend too much time on

437

them,

438

and on working on their own characters,

like little, you know, tasks and such,

439

then suddenly the entire campaign, it

loses its steam.

440

It loses that kind of driving purpose that

the, uh, that the players had.

441

And so I think it's really important that

you kind of balance and you see how many

442

sessions you've been in a city and you

see, you kind of even sketch out and be

443

like, okay, what is everyone focused on?

444

And if you're like, Oh,

445

All of these feel like they've been

focused outside of the main story for a

446

while, then that's your cue to, you know,

maybe be a little bit more dungeon.

447

Like can give an obvious sign of like,

Hey, go here, do this.

448

Let's get you back on track.

449

And the world depends on it, you know?

450

And I think that would make it so that you

don't, so a city or village doesn't

451

overstay its welcome in the campaign.

452

Absolutely.

453

I think an easy way to make sure that

doesn't happen as well.

454

Once you've made those calculations and

you've decided, yeah, this city has wore

455

out its welcome and the players still

don't want to leave, then have the main

456

thread come knocking on the door or rather

break down the door, kick it down as, you

457

know, on writing excuses from Brandon

Sanderson.

458

They say all the time.

459

A good example of this, it's not, they're

not necessarily in a city.

460

But if you think back to the first

Avengers movie, they're on the

461

helicarrier, right?

462

They have Loki, he's in their prison cell,

things are supposedly going well, and then

463

the bad guys come and take down the entire

helicarrier and kill Agent Coulson and let

464

the Hulk loose and steal the scepter and

full reversal, right?

465

If that didn't happen, the plot stops

there, the story's over.

466

So that's a great way, if your players are

stuck,

467

more or less, doing their own things,

right?

468

Even theoretically, they could be drifting

apart as friends within the party, have a

469

massive problem in the city that they're

in that they are probably somewhat

470

responsible for because they didn't follow

that thread and they should be back on, or

471

at least they should be starting to think,

crap, how do I do this and that at the

472

same time and start having kind of those

more moral quandaries?

473

I think that's always a really nice way

to...

474

Just get things up and going again.

475

Exactly.

476

And I think, uh, you know, we've talked a

little bit about it here and there, but I

477

think you should already be seeing kind of

the place that dungeons versus villages,

478

uh, have, you know, in your campaign,

because if you're really wanting the

479

players, if you feel like they've been

very tense and that they've had a lot of

480

exploration and you know, dungeon

crawling, essentially.

481

then it's like, hey, this might be a great

time to give them a breather, you know,

482

where they are spending time in a city

where they're getting to develop their

483

characters individually and kind of build

in like some, essentially some spices,

484

some variety, you know, to the adventure.

485

And then once you've added enough of that,

and as soon as you're like, oh,

486

we need more substance or more simplicity,

then you go to a dungeon, you know?

487

And between them, you're making sure that

the travel is interesting, that there's

488

unique experiences there as well.

489

But I think those are gonna be the kind of

the main meat and potatoes of any

490

campaign.

491

100%.

492

I think the main simplistic way of

describing dungeons versus villages and

493

cities is a constriction or an expansion

of choices.

494

And I think the best time to introduce one

is when you've had too much of the other,

495

right?

496

Obviously following whatever storyline

you're creating, but if you've been going

497

on a dungeon for a while,

498

have them reach the other side and there's

a nice little town.

499

Maybe they've gotten to Shangri-La and

they want to, they want to hang out there

500

with the Yetis and, and just going to eat

some, or drink some hot cocoa for a while.

501

Who knows, right?

502

Exactly.

503

I love how you sum that up because, you

know, so much of being a DM is just

504

playing it by ear and being like, okay,

the party.

505

And it's okay to ask them to be like, Hey,

how are you enjoying the dungeon?

506

And if you can start telling that like,

oh, the kind of which it was over, then

507

that's your cue.

508

It's like, okay, village coming up, you

know, let's end this quick and you know,

509

cut out a few of the extra rooms and

encounters I was planning.

510

And then if they're in the village, and

you can, I feel like maybe sometimes it's

511

harder to tell in a village that the

players are ready for the next bigger

512

you know, uh, hurdle.

513

Uh, and so with that one, you just want to

really make sure that everyone has had at

514

least a moment of time to kind of develop

themselves and then, you know, maybe do a

515

side quest that's kind of a fun little

distraction, or maybe go onto the next

516

part of the main quest and then bring them

back to the village.

517

Right.

518

You got options.

519

100%.

520

Couldn't agree more.

521

Well, thank you all for listening to us

kind of explain this balance between

522

villages and dungeons and we hope that

you'll go out in your campaigns and maybe

523

even your smaller campaigns as well and

just think about like, hey, am I going too

524

long in a dungeon or do I need a dungeon

right now because we've just been in a

525

village too often.

526

Just really, really implement both of

those well in your campaign.

527

And it's going to be a whole rounded

experience.

528

And, uh, yeah.

529

Any last thoughts, Justin?

530

I think both of these can be very fun

instances.

531

And in terms of when should you use

either, I think Tanner summed it up.

532

He said, you gotta play up a ear.

533

What you're listening to with that ear is

your players.

534

Whatever they want, that's what you do,

right?

535

Obviously what you want too, because

you're a player too, but what the table

536

wants.

537

Oh, sorry, I think you cut off for a bit.

538

No, no, that was it.

539

What the table wants, what the table gets.

540

That's, that's, let's see.

541

That's great.

542

Perfect.

543

Well, I hope you all go out there in your

next campaign or in your current one.

544

You know, give them the balance that

they're looking for, the well-rounded

545

experience, and until next time, let's

roll initiative.