How can you set professional boundaries and achieve a work-life balance?

In this week's episode of the Happier at Work podcast, I had the pleasure of speaking to Lucy Gernon, an award-winning executive coach with 20 years of experience in the corporate world. We delved deep into the vital topic of work happiness and productivity.

Lucy emphasised the importance of identifying and utilising our strengths at work to achieve happiness and alignment. She advocated for using the red and green activities exercise to pinpoint energising and draining tasks, allowing us to channel our efforts towards tasks that fuel our passion and proficiency.

We tackled the prevalent issue of work-life balance, highlighting the challenge of juggling a busy professional life with personal commitments. We share our own personal experiences and strategies for prioritising social connections and personal time, underlining the importance of questioning what truly serves our well-being and relationships.

Lucy stressed the significance of applying at least one thing differently in our work. They encouraged listeners to shift their conversation dynamics and place a focus on positive aspects, such as practicing gratitude and recognising what's going well.

This episode holds valuable insights that can enhance your professional and personal well-being. My conversation with Lucy can help you discover how to leverage your strengths for greater work satisfaction and find balance in your professional and personal life.

The main points throughout this podcast include:

• The importance of identifying and utilising our strengths at work to achieve happiness and alignment
• The prevalent issue of work-life balance and the challenge of juggling a busy professional life with personal commitments.
• The importance of questioning what truly serves our well-being and relationships.
• The significance of applying at least one thing differently in our work.

Connect with Lucy

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/lucygernon

Website: www.lucygernon.com

Instagram: www.instagram.com/lucygernon

Do you have any feedback or thoughts on this discussion? If so, please connect with Aoife via the links below and let her know. Aoife would love to hear from you!

Connect with Happier at Work host Aoife O’Brien:

Website: https://happieratwork.ie 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aoifemobrien/ 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/happieratwork.ie/ 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/happieratwork.ie

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@HappierAtWorkHQ

Twitter: https://twitter.com/HappierAtWorkHQ 

Previous Episodes:

https://happieratwork.ie/201-redefining-your-own-career-success-with-gary -crotaz/

https://happieratwork.ie/197-the-journey-to-workplace-happiness-with-rob-dubin/

https://happieratwork.ie/178-fulfilling-your-potential-and-finding-joy-in-your-work-with-soma-ghosh/

https://happieratwork.ie/191-the-pursuit-of-purpose-shifting-perspectives-with-will-polston/

https://happieratwork.ie/189-overcoming-perfectionism-and-prioritising-well-being-with-jordana-confino/

Lucy, you're so welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. I know we had talked about this last year, so I'm so thrilled to finally have you as my guest today. Do you wanna let people know a little bit a little bit about you, who you are, and why you do what you do?

Amazing. Well, firstly, thank you so much for I'm so excited to be here because, obviously, we planned this a while back. So my name is Lucy Gurnan, and I am a multi award winning executive coach for women in senior leadership roles. So I work with women from that kind of senior manager, associate director, head of level all the way up to executive level to really support them to accelerate their career with confidence without burning out or missing out on life, and that is the most important thing for me. We were talking just before we came on. I'm a mom of 3. I'm from Ireland. I worked in the corporate world for about 20 years in mainly in stem.

So I have a master's degree in science. I worked in the food and beverage industry and pharmaceutical industry as well. And I suppose the reason I do what I do is I was like a square peg in a round hole when I worked in the pharmaceutical industry in a sense that I was actually in I was actually a microbiologist who had this huge love of people, and, you know, if I even think back to when I was picking my, you know, subjects for college and things like that, I always was interested in, like, teaching or social care. And the reason I fell into science is because my boyfriend at the time when I was, like, 80

Lois. Lois. Yeah.

Was living in my hometown, didn't wanna leave. I said, right. I'll do science. End up doing a master's in biotechnology, so I didn't do too badly. But I always had this real love of people. I suppose I worked in in a leadership sense. I was involved in everything, you know, like great place to work initiatives, anything to do with workplace well-being, anything to do with, like, sports and socials. I was the one who was, like, organizing events and all that kind of stuff.

And I never really knew. I just kinda thought, well, I'm I'm I'm in science now. That's where I'm gonna stay because, like, you know, you do a degree in something or a master's and you think that that's it. But, actually, I had this inner knowing that I was here to do much bigger things, and I know that the reason I was in that world for so long was because I now understand that world so well, which enables me to be able to do the work that I do.

Brilliant. Lucy, there's so much that I want to unpack from what you've just said there. And it's funny because I think we I feel like we have so many commonalities coming from quite a different background. And, when I came to college, I chose I was really interested in psychology and and that type of stuff. But, you know, I know we talked about imposter syndrome before we came on, but I was thinking I rejected myself because I was like, there's no way I'm gonna get the points to go and study psychology in Trinity, which I think was the only place at the time you could do it unless you were doing an arts degree and totally rejected myself. And I went on and I did business with languages, which I loved. It had elements of everything I was interested in. But it's so funny how we make these decisions for ourselves when we're at that time.

One thing that really jumped out at me from what you said, which I don't think we've really talked about before, is this idea that you're gonna stay where you are forever. And I think sometimes we get stuck in our careers because we think this is it or I'm too old or it's too late or what will I do now? Or I'd have to start at the bottom. So it's so inspiring to hear stories, I think, from the the life of yourself and and other people as well, because I know there are so many stories of people who have made that change, and they've started a brand new career for themselves when most people would be so afraid to do that. So, hopefully, that serves as inspiration for anyone who's listening today who's feeling like I've been doing what I'm doing for so long. There's no way I can start again. You have transferable skills, by the way. You know, there's so much that you could offer. You don't have to start at the bottom if you're going to a different industry, if you're, you know, We could go on for an entire podcast talking about that, I think.

But this idea as well of being a square peg in a round hole, maybe not really fitting in, I also was the kind of person who was always on the social committee organizing stuff, wanting to be out, wanting to socialize. But I want to come back to, I think, the really key things that you said at the start, which was around this idea of balance and burnout because it's such I was gonna say it's a hot topic. It is a hot topic, but I think for a really important reason, I don't think it's something that we should ever stop talking about. But I know that you have some fantastic methodologies around creating better balance while also being really successful and happy at work. So maybe before we go into solution mode, what are some of the issues and challenges that you're seeing a lot out there at the moment?

Great question. So I think definitely the women that I'm working with, thankfully, the world is changing. So the women who are coming to me now are more into, I suppose, wanting to make a bigger impact in their leadership role, wanting to progress to the next level, etcetera, etcetera. And they are starting honestly, I'm really starting to see a shift in the numbers of women who are coming to me with actual pure burnout. They're nearly catching themselves because I really feel like the younger generation okay. Anyone listening who leads a team knows we are leading we are in a whole different world. Like, I have, you know, a few different team members myself, and, you know, they are so focused on balance. It is not about the career.

It is not about getting to the next level. They just see work as work, a lot of them, and they want to do really well so they can enjoy their life. And I think our generation got it so wrong in that we were working for the wrong reasons and then not having time to enjoy it. So I'm definitely starting to see a bit of a shift there, and I definitely think because we're having these conversations about well-being and burnout and everything, it is a lot more topical. But I suppose I what's coming to mind is I did have a client a couple of years ago, and, she was on my podcast as well, the 360 leadership podcast, if anyone wants to listen. Shameless plug. And she was a VP who had 2 young children, and she was leading, you know, a massive revenue stream, within an organization, a big big division with, you know, 100 and 100 and thousands of people under her, and she had all of this pressure, but it was all driven from your friend imposter syndrome. Right? She she had this imposter syndrome and didn't believe in herself and, you know, after obviously working together and going through not only the mindset stuff, which obviously is just critical, but there were so many tactical things in terms of workload management that she had never been taught.

And I think that's the key is, like, it's having both. It's having the right mindset, but also, like, I'm super productive. I'm I've always been super productive. I've all always been able to deliver. So I love being able to teach my strategies to my clients and that too.

Brilliant. I love that, the the kind of 2 pronged approach. Can we take a step back and, like, have an honest discussion about how did this happen? So if I think about work and the evolution of work, and I think, like, in the sixties seventies, you went in, you did your job, and you went home. I think it's it's really the acceleration of technology that has facilitated this. So we are people who didn't necessarily grow up with having well, we definitely didn't grow up with having mobile phones. You might have had a computer in your house. You might have had a a TV and things like that. But I think when those are those sort of things started coming into the workplace and if I think of my early career, we would have had a printer at the end of the bank of desks, you know, whereas now it's like it's all a centralized printer and you can only print on double sided and you can't print in color unless you get special permission.

Like when I was starting working, it was you could print in color. Each individual person almost had their own printer. Like, it was just it was crazy. But the different types of technology, I suppose, with having laptops rather than desktop computers, with having your emails on your phone, where it just doesn't go away.

But that's a choice. That is a choice that people need to realize that they have. So, you know, we we if you're in a in a organization, like, the biggest pain of everybody's life is instant messages. It's the ping ping ping ping ping. Right? And what like, I also say to my clients, even when I worked in the corporate world myself, like, you just turn them off. It's about having the self discipline to be able to schedule time within your day to check your instant messages. You know it's like responding to other people's urgencies ends up being your problem. So I think it's so important that you remember like you are in control and I remember when I used to I remember, like, if I ever turned off my instant message at the start, I would have been like, oh my god.

People are gonna think I'm not working. Actually, no. We need to totally reframe that. If someone's instant message is off, it means they are working. Right? Because we know that we cannot be interrupted. You know, it takes us time to get into this flow state where we're able to produce work. Yeah.

So

I think that's super, super, super important.

Yeah. And another thing that I find, and this is true of myself as well, it's so much easier to respond to other people's urgencies if they're coming in. They're quickly, they're tight deadlines, and you can know that you can do it quickly and you know you can turn it around. Whereas if you're working on your own stuff and it's that deep flow state, it's harder work to do a lot of the time. Exactly. It's so hard because and then then that makes it so easy to be like, right. Oh, I've been interrupted. Or let me just even if I have my emails closed, let me just check my emails for a second.

Like, for a long time, I've had notifications off on my email. You know, when the when it makes that sound, I love that sound. You're like, oh, that dopamine is just like amazing. But when you turn the emails off, there's still the temptation there to be like, oh, let me just see if anyone needs anything from me rather than focusing on our own work. So I I I kinda want to bring that out because I think it's so important to acknowledge that. And I love this that you said it's a choice. We always have a choice, and we are always in control. Even if you don't feel like you're in control, know that you have the choice to set those boundaries.

And I we'll talk about that in a second. But I love this 2 pronged approach with workload management and using very specific techniques to manage your workload. Maybe we can talk about that in a second. But then the mindset around impostor syndrome, they're gonna find me out, so I better work my bloody ass off so that they think I'm doing a really fantastic job and that they don't say anything, and they don't find out that I have no idea what I'm doing and that I'm totally incapable, and I'm a fraud, and why did they pick me for this job anyway, and all of these things that we tell ourselves. So maybe we come back to this idea of workload management and some specific things that people can do, some really practical things that they can do. If they're listening to the podcast today, Maybe they can do it straight away or after they've listened.

Yeah. Great question. I love I'm all about tactics and tools and frameworks, so I love it. Right. The first thing is is to switch to results focused thinking instead of to do list thinking. So people can often wear their to do list like a badge of honor. Like I remember 1 girl I used to work with she used to go around with her like diary and she would like literally go, like, look at my to do list. Look at my to do list because it makes us feel important when we have loads of things to do.

Okay? However, you know, especially since I've, you know, CEO of my own company now as well and I'm able to see it from a different angle, it's like you're in your role to move the needle for the business. Okay? Every single employee's role is to grow the business. That's it. And so what I always think about is right. I invite my clients to do this all the time. Every day, when you're doing your priorities, which we'll talk about in a second, I want you to think about the results that you're gonna create or the tangible outcome that you want to create by the end of the day. So it's very different when you show up to work with an intent to produce something or to create something as opposed to just going in to, like, tick off things on your to do list. It's just a totally different mindset.

So, obviously, we know that, that old saying eat the frog first. I firmly believe in that where, you know, you start with that the frog. You start with that thing that's like, oh, like, for me, it's exact I hate anything to do with spreadsheets. We talk with this on my podcast.

We did talk about this. And I Because I heard you speaking about spreadsheets before, I assumed that you really like spreadsheets or I was thinking of posting spreadsheets. I love spreadsheets.

No. I don't have I have spreadsheets because they're very, very necessary, and I train myself. But if I have to do anything to do with finances like, I used to manage manage capital finance in my previous company, and I I used to dread it. I used to psych myself up. I'd be breaking out in a cold sweat. I would procrastinate because I hate really, really detailed work. I'm more of a high level visionary kind of thinker, but I'm I'm very aware of that in myself. And so what if I need to do something like that? I don't leave that to the end of the day.

I do it first because then it's like you get the hardest thing out your way and then respond away to all those little dopamine hits that you get. And at the end of the day, you can go, okay. This thing is now done. I've actually done something good, and then you're just gonna feel better about yourself.

Yeah. Yeah. That's I mean, I love I love that approach. I have tried to be for myself, Brian Tracy's eat the frog, and there's an entire book about this, by the way, for anyone listening. I will put a link to that in the the show notes as well. But this concept of doing the worst thing first, because then your day is just gonna get better and better from here on out. Can we come back to this idea? Like, I love how you described it. It's like producing something rather than ticking off things on a to do list, and this is something I've become much more aware of in the last few years.

It's like outcomes based work. And whatever people are thinking on an individual basis, it's so, so important at a company level to have this kind of focus now because it facilitates your flexible working. It facilitates reduction in working hours when we can focus on outcomes rather than, you know, on what we are actually producing and what we're here to do on a day to day basis.

And it's and it's as a team as well, Yves. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I think I think a huge mistake so many leaders make is they think everyone has their own priorities and everyone knows what they're doing. Whereas I I always recommend that, you know, if you're a leader, that you are so clear on your team's priorities for the week, for the month, like, not micromanaging, but, like, as a team, collectively, these are the 5 things we need to work towards. Yeah. So if anybody is struggling in the department with hitting one of these objectives, you have my full permission to stop what you're doing so we get these things done.

Yeah.

That is a game changer if you implement what kind of

system love that. That and I think just hearing those words is so reassuring. I'm reading at the moment, the the Netflix story. Mark Randolph, shares, like, his kind of founding story of Netflix, and it's so, so interesting. But one of the things that has just happened in the part that I'm reading at the moment is they've been working on this thing, you know, putting in so so many hours so so many hours, and they got it over the line. They they made it happen. And one person who was leading the project didn't believe in it, but she still did it. And then the CEO at that time, who was, Reed Hastings, he turned around.

He said, actually, that's not a priority anymore after they had spent so many hours. And so there was no acknowledgment of that, and it's so demoralizing when that happens, when priorities shift, which I know they do, but you need to communicate that and you need to acknowledge to your team that you've worked really hard to get this thing. But actually, we've changed our priority now because Yeah. At the time it was they were dealing with Amazon, and Amazon hadn't held up their side of the the deal, basically.

I think, though, Yifo, just to be I'll I'll add to that. Like, I think a lot of the reason leaders don't do that is because they don't have the self discipline themselves. I'm sorry to call you guys out

Yeah.

To actually take a step back to be strategic and think about, okay, what do I want my team to deliver? Like, what is the tangible thing we can actually measure that I want my team to deliver? And if organizations run their business like that, like, everything would change. Yeah. Everything would change.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that I think it's such an important point to raise that, you know, and and, like, all of these points tie together because leaders don't do that because they think I don't have time for thinking. Like, when I was working in corporate, that was a huge issue we had. I don't have time to stop and think. I just do. Like, you're basically just working off that to do list.

Here's a list of the tasks that I need to do without taking a step back to think, why am I doing this? What am I actually doing? And what outcome is that going to give me? And is that going to, as you very rightly said at the start, Lacey, is that moving the dial towards the objectives that we're trying to hit? So it's, yeah, it's so important just to allow yourself that time and discipline of actually doing that, of having a look. Are these still the priorities? Are these still the objectives that we're going to? So absolutely love that.

And I might be able to share something to help your listeners on that, on how to create more time to be strategic because, I mean, inevitably, but inevitably, something else happens, and I don't get to take the time. And one of my clients asked me last week. She was like, any advice? How do I do this? So there was 2 things I said to her. The first thing is you have to apply what I call the 2 steps ahead rule. Yeah. Okay? And this is where you need to be strategic, okay, and think about who's going to need me this week?

Yeah. Who

are the stakeholders that I know? Like, because we usually, actually, if you think about it, it's never normally really a surprise. It's normally usually something that you've kind of been expecting, or it's a day to day business fire that leaders are always surprised when there's problems. Like, your job as a leader is to solve problems. Right? So it's about anticipating that. It's about, you know, on a Sunday, I would always recommend a Sunday night, Monday morning, whatever works for you. Looking ahead at your week, looking ahead at your meetings, looking ahead and seeing do I you know, applying the 5 d's, decline, delegate, defer it, or do it. Right? Mhmm. And then the final d is discipline, self discipline to actually execute the system.

It's about freeing up space in your calendar so you're not looking at a myriad of triple book meetings and then wearing it like a badge of honor.

Yeah.

Okay? That I'm overwhelmed. And And then it's about looking at the deliverables. Okay? Look. What's coming up? What's likely to come? What's like I sort of say, what's gonna bite me in the ass if I don't actually do something about this? And I'd be picking up the phone, and I'd be ringing certain people going, I know this this thing has happened. What do you need from me? Can I support you Well, before they come to me? So that's the first thing I would definitely say is to is to start using that 2 steps ahead rule as a game changer.

I love that. I love it's just anticipating. And I think when you can anticipate and when you think of those 2 steps ahead because you know what's gonna happen

Always, nearly.

You know what's gonna happen. You know, I think you can predict. You know your team well, and you know what's gonna happen. If you don't do that, then it's like, okay. So why don't you say in advance, what are you gonna need from me? And that, in some ways, that puts the onus on the other person to have a think about, but then you can also anticipate, you know, what is this gonna be? It's I'm having kind of flashbacks to another previous podcast episode where I spoke with Ariel O'Farrell, and it's about managing teams And when you're a first time manager and not even first time managers, but I think if you've never had any sort of leadership development training and the and the different types of people that come to you. And when you keep solving their problems for them, then you end up becoming the bottleneck. So, again, it's, yeah, we're here to solve problems, but, actually, we're also here to empower other people to to go and find their own solutions as well. So it's rather than just solving, solving, solving, yeah, there's certain level of problems that I can solve, but, actually, here are the problems that you can solve yourself.

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it's about not it's about having the self discipline as well because, again, when people come to us with problems, of course, like most women I work with would love they love problem solving. That's why they got to where they are. So when somebody comes with a problem, it's literally like an exciting dope

but, actually, is that the right level of work that I'm I should be doing for the role that I have? Mhmm. Yeah. Brilliant. You've kind of used this term, the badge of honor, and I'm so important. Can we explore that in a little bit more detail? Because it is. It It has become this, like, how are you? I'm busy. And busyness has become this. And it's not just recently as well.

It's, like, going on for years. And, like, a little personal story for me, a couple of friends were asking me to go out and and I was available, but they're like, oh, you're probably busy because you're always busy. And I was like, oh my god. I didn't realize I was putting out that kind of vibe that, like, I'm I'm always busy or you have to give me 2 or 3 weeks notice to be able to to meet up with me. So I I just radically changed how I did things. And it was like, right. I have this night for my Pilates or I have this other night for something else. And then the rest of the nights, I am available to meet up with friends.

Like, I didn't want to rampack my calendar with everything because I was putting out this perception that I was never available and that I was always busy, and I didn't have time for my friends.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's the thing. I mean, honestly, I would be the same. That's why I've said what I said because I was that girl, and I still have to watch myself. You know? That my I think especially if you're, you know, a leader and then, like, for me, I have 3 children as well. People make a lot of assumptions that, oh, she's she's busy because she's always talking about work and she's always talking about the kids. So where where is the time for me in these conversations? She mustn't see me, so I just won't invite her the next time.

So I think that's a really, really valid point, Tifa.

Yeah. But what's the what's the solution to that then? So if we're all going around saying how busy we are with this perception that being busy is really important, and again, if I cast my mind back to when I first started, in my career and when you had a meeting or when you were invited to a meeting, that's when you felt really important. And the more meetings you had, the more important you were. And I think that that idea sort of perpetuated that you feel like I need to be at all of these meetings because I'm so important that they want me there. So any thoughts around that, and and what can we do about this perception that being busy is is a good thing?

I think it's about bringing yourself back to the fact that we only have one life, and it's what's your priority? So, obviously, you know, a lot of your listeners may may know about this, may not, so I won't assume that you guys know. But, you know, that that coaching wheel of life where you look at the you know, you literally just draw a circle on a piece of paper and split it into 8 sections. And in each one of the sections, you know, you'd write family, career, finances, health, whatever those things that are important for you. And you would rate, you know, first of all, how you're doing in each one of those areas from a scale of 1 to 10. Are you giving them a lot of attention? Are you not? But I think when you do that exercise, it's about going back to what's important for you. And, you know, career might be the most important thing for you, But is being busy serving you? Like, if if being it depends on your definition of busy. Right? Yeah. It's like, is being busy serving you? Is it serving your relationships? Is it serving your your well-being? Telling yourself you're busy all the time.

Like, here's a here's a little tip one of my coaches gave me. She's a positive psychologist, and I'm studying positive psychology now myself as well at the moment. And normally when you meet your friends, right, and someone says, oh, you're family. How are you? Straight away, we get into what's wrong. Like, I don't think I've ever asked so many questions. Oh, yeah. The house Let me

tell you, Lucy.

Right? So here's a question that you can ask people to change the dynamic of that, which I think leads into the busyness, which is what's going well for you?

Oh, I love that.

What's going well?

What what is simple and effective change that is.

And you're gonna have people look at you like

God. I've never been asked that before. Yeah. Yeah.

I've never been asked that because, typically, how are you? We default to what's wrong. And we get into then, I'm so busy and blah blah blah. What's going well? Well, actually, work is going really well because I got this project over the line and I have this this and this. So that I think can change the dynamic in relationships massively.

Yeah. That's amazing. And and I think it challenges people to think because we're on probably the default mode of, I'm gonna have a moan now of, like, say, the house move is not going well or we're in this situation or I'm so busy at work or the last project I worked on didn't go as well as I thought. If you ask someone what's actually going well for you, they have they might have to stop and think for a second and be like, oh, well, there's so much that's going well for me. Or if they're challenged and they can't really think off the top of their head, maybe that's an indication that maybe you're not doing so well and you need to

They're not looking for it. We're all there's always things going well. Yeah. There's always things going well. And you can also say, like, if someone's struggling, you might just say, well, what are you grateful for? So again we know from positive psychology that when you lean into gratitude you're gonna, you know, better relationships, better well-being, better everything. Yeah. But it's very alien to us. It's quite an alien concept.

Yeah. We're not taught this kind of stuff, I think. We're and and we kinda maybe replicate what other people are doing as well. Lucy, you mentioned at the start of the episode, and it's kinda come up a little bit in our conversation as well, this idea of burnout and that one of your clients came to you or often your clients come to you, and they're at that stage where they are burning out. Do you wanna talk to me a little bit more about how how do they get there, and how how do we solve this issue? Because it's it's something that I think, so many peep like, I've got I've never burnt out burned out, but I've got certainly, I've got so close. And I know when I'm close to burnout, all I want to do is keep working. I'm like, I wanna do more. I wanna keep going.

That's that inner drive that's coming out. And it's probably the same with a lot of the women that you work with as well.

Yeah. Absolutely. Like, I think it's about knowing knowing your triggers. And I like, this is such cliche generic advice, but it's cliche and generic for a reason because it's the truth. First of all, you know, in those busy periods, you have got to fill your own cup.

Yeah.

So, you know, even when you're in the busiest period in work, I hear people say, I can't wait till this project is finished, and then I'm gonna take a day off, or I can't wait until we do this and it's gonna be really busy now for the next 3 months. So say for example a lady is coming to my head now. She's one of my I have a membership called 360 Leaders Club and she came to me because she had been really burnt out. And she wanted to come in and, you know, develop as a leader and make sure that she stayed on the on the right track from a balance perspective. And she works in the financial services industry, and right now, it's like audit season. It's like their craziest, craziest, busiest time in March, like, the Q1 of the year. And she it's actually just today. We were on a call, and she said this is the first time in her entire career that she's feeling good in this season.

It's just ended. So I asked her what she did, and the first thing she said is she well, she set the boundaries. Right? So I have a a 3 step method that I call the dad method. I actually did a podcast episode on it. If anyone wants to listen, I'll give you a link to this.

Link. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, many people give out about the workloads, about how they're treated, but most people have never actually taken the time to sit down and think about, well, how do I want people to treat me?

Yeah.

What are what are my boundaries? Like, when do I work best? How much notice do I really want for a meeting? Like, what is what's my hell no and what's my hell yes kind of activities? And I think it's so so important. So she did that. She did the exercise, and she realized that, number 1, she her team, she was not empowering her team. She was avail too available for them and she was afraid to kind of push back whereas you know we worked together and I was able to teach her strategies to really empower her team as well and lose the guilt, you know, lose the guilt associated with delegation because actually she came back and said her team were delighted they were getting more visibility in certain areas of the business which they didn't usually. So the moral of the story was before she was afraid to set boundaries because she all the stories we tell ourselves. Right? But when she actually did it and she did it with good intention and she got crystal clear on her role, her team's role, you know, the priorities, what results she needed to focus on creating, and all of that stuff that, you know, we would have worked through. She literally is in a great place. And at the same time, she's taking care of her health for the first time too, which is something I'm a real advocate for as well.

Brilliant. That's and you've given us so much there. I I love that because and I can totally relate. I have so I haven't done it myself, but I have so many friends who are in that area where it's like they're so driven by these quarterly targets or after the quarter end that it's now the pressure's on from the financial side of things to to I was gonna say, calculate everything. You can tell that I never worked in that side. I can't

you love spreadsheets. I can't you love spreadsheets.

I do love spreadsheets. I do. I do. But this this idea that, yeah, that you're you're working to deadlines, and it's such a tight turnaround. The business wants to know how it's doing, like, what money actually came in, all of this kind of stuff. But, yeah, to to really have those clear boundaries, to not have the guilt associated with, I should be the one to do this. I can't let my team do this. But then the team are only delighted, like I said, that they have this opportunity now to do maybe higher level work, get a greater level of visibility for what they're doing, get get recognition.

But setting that really, the really key priorities and knowing what your role is versus what the role of the the team is as well, knowing when you work best. I loved what you said as, like, the notice for meetings. I'm one of these people. Like, this week, people can book in meetings with me next week or, you know, after next week. I'm, one of those advanced meetings kind of people. And I was speaking to someone yesterday, and he said he was like, oh, I don't mind if you just phoned me up. I was like, I would be horrified horrified if someone phoned me up and wanted to have a conversation because that's taking away from whatever I had planned to do in that time that I had. And then this is when you get to the end of the day and you realize I had this list of things that I wanted to prioritize.

And then someone else has come and IM ed me or called me and taken away all the time. So setting those really clear boundaries. What is it that you talked about the dad method. What does that actually stand for?

So it's define, apply, and defend. So the fur the first step is, you know, defining your boundaries like I said. So really taking a step back and actually asking yourself, well, how do I wanna work? Like, for example, I had a rule when I was in corporate that my team I would have had a meeting with them every morning, quick touch base, clear on priorities, off I went. So they knew what they were doing every single day. Right? And then they knew they couldn't contact me. And it wasn't that I was so important. It was that I explained, I'm coming in at 9 AM. After a meeting.

I stay around for, like, 20 minutes or whatever. If anyone has anything that you need, this is the time I'm available. And then outside of that, I'm not available. Now obviously, there's urgent issues when we would need

to be.

Right? And then what I used to do is I used to have a, like, a clinic on a Wednesday where it was from, like, 2 to 3 o'clock where every single week I I carved out that space no matter what was happening in the business unless it was, like, business critical, like, super business critical, where my team could come to me for those nonurgent but important questions.

Yeah.

They're just that's the strategic work where they're coming and they know there's problems. Right? They're they're trying to tell you you can't deal because you're dealing with today's problems. Yeah. So it's about carving out that space for them as well. So by setting rules around your availability with your team, with your state important stakeholders and talking to them in a way that it's like, I wanna be able to support you. That's why I'm doing this.

This is

how I like this is how we need to work together.

So yeah. I'll I love that. And this idea of having a drop in clinic and fixed assigned times for this is when I'm available for you to ask me questions and making yourself available every day, I think, is is amazing. And then, you know, something else that occurred to me is we often get so wrapped up in the work that we think that it's everything's urgent or it's an emergency. But most of what we're doing, certainly the listeners of this podcast anyway, it's not life or death situation. You know, it's we're not doctors. We're not brain surgeons who are operating. And if something goes wrong, then it goes wrong, and we can learn from it.

It's not like the whole world is not gonna stop just because we're we're we're not doing that. Lucy, before we wrap things up, I'd love to kind of go full circle and then talk about this concept of balance, which has kinda come up throughout our conversation, and we talked about it at the start as well. And maybe, like, summarizing some of the key points that we've talked about today in order to get that better balance and anything else that you have to add about that as well.

Yeah. So I think, firstly, it's the boundaries, please. But I think people I like I prefer to call boundaries. People get a bit scared by the word boundaries. It sounds very rigid, and we always want to set boundaries in a way that's still supportive for the other person. It's never I'd never be like, I'm not helping you. Like, no. That's just not nice thing to do.

I prefer to call it, like, collaboration guidelines where you come up with your guidelines for how you like to collaborate and then you collaborate with those other stakeholders so your team, your whoever those people are, your even your boss, like, people are afraid to do that up but to have a conversation around my role is to goes back to results focused thinking is to deliver x. In order for me to do this, here's how I like to work best. How does that sound for you? You know, I what I'm proposing is the the the the the the how you know, do you think that that can work for you? Because I want to be able to support you and give you the best of me so you can blah blah blah. So you make it all about the other person. Collaboration guidelines so you can get your job done. You're not doing it just so you can go get your nails done unless you are. But you can do. Right? So think that's the first thing is the boundaries.

The second thing is about learning to manage your workload really, really effectively, and this is something that I teach in detail when with the people who work with me because such simple things, but it requires you to have self discipline. I always say to lead others, you have to first be able to lead yourself. Yeah. Okay. You have to be able to lead yourself. So it's taken the time every single week. Like I said earlier, look at your calendar. Stop allowing yourself to be completely booked up or Yeah.

Having loads of tentative meetings. Make a decision. Am I gonna go? Am I not gonna go? So that you can give the person notice. Like I'm

having flashbacks now.

These

are tentative meetings are the one with those. And they fill your calendar, and you decide at the time whether you're gonna show up or not.

It's just not it's not good for your mindset No. Because then you see a sea of, like, indecisiveness is basically what your calendar is. And then the other person has no clue whether or not you're gonna show up, and it's it's just chaotic. So it's literally putting manners around your calendar will be a game changer for you and, like, planning in personal stuff on your work calendar. So

Yeah.

Some people are afraid to do this but, like, you know plan in your if you want to go for a walk pop it on your calendar and color code it. Plan in your lunch break. Pop in if you're doing an exercise class so you have it all in one place, and then just decide, like, what are your non negotiables? What are the things that you are not willing to negotiate on? What are your your boundaries around your availability? And then, you know, part of the method that I didn't get to is the is the apply part of the the dad method, which is you can't just set boundaries and go, right now, this is my new boundaries, and that's it. You've got to have a conversation with the people. So you've got to, like, speak to them and agree because then once you once you do that and, you know, John says, oh, yeah. That's cool. I I wanna give you 24 hours notice for document reviews, for example. He's agreed that.

So if he breaks that boundary, that's on him. It's not on you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, John, we agreed that you'll give me 24 hours notice. You're giving me now 8 hours notice. Can we push it out by a day or put out

Unfortunately, I have other priorities today as we as I explained. Do you know what I mean? So there's there's ways you can do it. And I think it's, like, about finally realizing, you know, it's just work.

Yeah. And we should stop taking ourselves so seriously. Is that what

you're taking it to us. Yeah. So all of us. Me included.

Me included in that as well. Definitely, Lucy. But I love this idea of planning personal stuff on your calendar. Yeah. Like, putting in your lunch breaks. I worked with a guy who used to put in, like, I need to drink water now, and that was in his calendar throughout the day so that he got in a better habit of drinking water, you know, throughout the day and things like that. So, absolutely love that. Can we come back to this idea of managing workload? And this ties in with the idea of boundaries.

But when when you're getting basically piled on from above and from below, you're getting all of the the stuff coming at you and how to say no effectively.

Well, I think in order to do that, you've got work to do first. Like, I I don't think you can just say no. It's about applying that 2 steps ahead rule.

Yeah.

Okay? That's the number one thing. It's about anticipating what might my boss or above need, what might be coming, and the same with below. So if you are not doing that, that's on you.

Yeah.

That's on you. And then I think from a prioritization perspective, you know, it's about holding your manager, your seniors to account to be clear on

the focus. Yes.

And most people are afraid to do that. Yeah. So, you know, you can do it in a way that's like, I want to do a good I want to do what I where I need to focus. And if you're unsure and you have all these priorities and everything is urgent, it's about being able to demonstrate that you've, you know, you've assessed capacity in your team, you've done x y and z and I've done all the things but I still can't make it and nobody likes to do that, which is why women work their asses off and end up burning out. And I can tell you as well, like, so many people in the tech industry we saw last year did that, and so many of them were made redundant in an instant.

Yeah.

So it is not your job to absorb poor leadership or poor organizational structure. You do not get paid enough to do that. That's that's for the above.

Yeah. That's such a good point, Lucy, I think, because oftentimes they're trickling down some message that they've got without really thinking it through. They're passing it on, and it hasn't been thought through. And then it's just being absorbed by the company even if it's not a priority or it hasn't been clearly defined or whatever it might be. So I think it's so important for anyone listening today to challenge up where it's about what the priorities are, to show that you've done the work, to see where this work could potentially go, that you're not really clear and you have multiple priorities, and you want to know, like, what is the number one priority that needs to get done. So absolutely love that. The question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

I think being happier at work means leveraging your strengths more than trying to work on your weaknesses or your areas for development. So I think we know from the science of positive psychology that when we align with our strengths we, you know, we can get into flow state. When we get into flow state it's where we are, you know, in that really, I suppose, wonderful feeling of just being in total flow, been in total alignment, and it's where we are supposed to be. So I'm a real believer in, you know, the universe and we're all here for a reason and I believe that every single person is on this planet for a reason and it's to use the gifts that you were given. Okay? So I think there's an activity that you can do called a red and green activities exercise. Your listeners can do it super simple but super effective. You can do it with your team too where you just get a pen and paper, write a little column green red and throughout your day document the activities that are energizing you. So for example when I get off this call I'll feel really energized because actually my my second top strength is communication.

Okay? I like that. It makes me feel good so that would be a green thing. However, a red activity would be if I had to go to my spreadsheet and do do finance stuff. Like, it puts me in bad form. Yeah. So when you start to do that over a period of time, you're gonna start to see, you know, what activities energize you and try to do more of that is what I would say if you wanna be really happier at work.

Yeah. And I think oftentimes, we kind of have an idea of what those things are, but maybe we don't see just how many of the things that we don't enjoy we're doing throughout the day. And I love this idea of strength. It's part of the happier at work framework. And I think knowing what your strengths are is so important, but also working to your strengths and finding people who have complementary strengths as well. So you and I would work really well together, Lucy. I love the detail. I love

the spreadsheets. I'm looking for it. Don't know. Can we work together, please?

This is it. Watch this space for anyone who's listening to this podcast today. But I absolutely thoroughly enjoyed this chat. So many practical things that people can do once they've listened. And and I suppose this is the thing, isn't it? Like, it's not just about knowledge. It's about what can I do differently now that I've heard this thing? And you don't have to apply everything at once. Just do one thing differently. You know, what what really struck a chord with you? What can you do tomorrow? What can you do later today? So, definitely have a think about that.

But thank you so much, Lucy, for sharing your time, for sharing your wisdom. I really, really enjoyed our conversation today.

Oh, thank you for having me. It's been my pleasure. Thank you, Ifa.