Sentiment and Songwriting with Mike Kennebrew

In this episode of Curious Goldfish, host Jason English engages in a deep dive with singer-songwriter Mike Kennebrew. They explore themes of sentiment in music, the personal and communal aspects of songwriting, and the curious mix of vulnerability and connection it cultivates. The conversation meanders through Kennebrew's musical journey, beginning with a reflection on positivity in his work and a notable transition to crafting his 'saddest song' after a peculiar feedback. Further, the dialogue touches on the importance of reflection amid the fast-paced media consumption of today's world, the narrative depth in Kennebrew's upcoming album, and an intimate performance set against Lake Sinclair with an unplanned geese choir. Various elements of country music's history, personal inspirations, and the transformative power of sharing music are discussed, alongside the intricacies of covering songs in the digital age. Kennebrew shares his anticipation for new projects and a live performance wraps up the episode, highlighting the podcast's dedication to music, curiosity, and the stories behind the art.

00:00 Opening Thoughts: The Power of Positivity in Songwriting

00:41 Introducing Curious Goldfish: A Musical Journey

01:20 Exploring Sentiment and Songwriting with Mike Kennebrew

02:19 The Influence of Country Music and Personal Reflections

03:27 The Art of Songwriting: Emotion, Authenticity, and Connection

08:51 The Creative Process and Upcoming Projects

17:05 Covering Classics and Navigating Permissions

19:32 Looking Ahead: Curiosity and the Future of Music

21:33 Closing Remarks and Musical Performance

But he goes, you're like, you're like too, uh, positive.

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You're like Luke Skywalker.

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And sometimes you just

want Darth Vader, you know?

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And I, and I went home and I

thought, Am I always that shiny

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and hopeful and everything has

like a happy ending and stuff.

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And, uh, and so I wrote like

my saddest song after that.

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And the first line was sometimes

I feel like I'm already dead,

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Jason English (Host): Welcome to

curious goldfish, a podcast community

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where music and curiosity come together

through interesting conversations

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with the music makers of our world.

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I'm your host, Jason English.

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You can find curious goldfish and all the

major podcast and social media platforms.

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And of course, we have all of

our content on our website.

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Curious goldfish.

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com.

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Sentiment to something you don't

hear much about these days.

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It kind of feels like life just happens

with all the media and content in the

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world to consume, including podcasts

like this, we barely have time to

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just sit and be, let alone time to

properly reflect on the relationships

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and connections that enrich our lives

and endure beyond our generation.

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In the second episode with singer

songwriter, Mike Kennebrew, we continue

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discussing with Mike, how the idea

of sentiment and the things most

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important in his life continue to be the

narratives his songwriting gravitates to.

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And Mike shares that he has a

batch of new songs teed up for

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an album release sometime soon.

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And he closes this episode out with two

songs, one off that upcoming new album and

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one unreleased called letter from Betty.

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Mike performs both of these with the

beautiful Lake Sinclair in Southeast

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Georgia as a backdrop and get some

help with backing vocals by a flock of

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Canadian geese soaring above the water.

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It was beautiful all the way around.

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We pick up the conversation talking

about one of my favorite documentaries,

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country music by Ken Burns on PBS from

about six years ago, I invite myself

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to Macon and to watch it with Mike.

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So hopefully that can happen one day.

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I'll bring the popcorn, Mike.

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Once again, here's Mike

Kennebrew of Macon, Georgia.

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Let's jump back in.

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Mike Kinnebrew: So.

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Yeah.

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Jason English (Host): I did.

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You ever see the documentary that

Ken Burns did on country music.

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Did you ever watch that?

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Mike Kinnebrew: No, I didn't.

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Um, his Civil War one, I've watched like

more times than I can count, but um, but

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no, I haven't seen the one on country

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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So the country music one for me is the

best thing that's ever been on television.

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Mike Kinnebrew: man, I gotta see it.

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Jason English (Host): You got to see it.

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I mean, especially with you.

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Uh, and Your history in the

South, history with the church,

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history with music, Nashville, I

mean, Mike, you gotta watch it.

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It's eight, but each one is, uh,

it's a little less than two hours.

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So, you know, you probably, no,

it's, you know, it's probably 16

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Mike Kinnebrew: hours.

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Yeah,

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Jason English (Host): yeah, yeah.

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No, so the, um.

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Oh my gosh, I would not, I'm not gonna

invite myself to Macon to watch it with

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you, but I would love to watch it with

someone like you for the first time

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because you'd be like, Oh my goodness.

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And again, this podcast isn't about

Ken Burns, but where I'm, I'm going

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to have a point to bringing it up.

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But the whole thing that's amazing to

me is the threads of country music.

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So they start with like, you know,

the Carter family, uh, and then it's

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Jimmy Rogers, you know, Hank Williams.

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Johnny Cash, you know, uh, Dolly Parton,

Loretta Lynn, you know, all the way

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up probably until the to the mid late

90s and they stop and you know, they

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stop and they they sort of allude to

The current folks like Chris Stapleton,

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both of them and stuff, but they only

go into the into those generations But

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it's the thread through through all

those and it's the thread of faith.

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It's the thread of The instrumentation,

bluegrass and everything.

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Anyway, where I'm going with it back

to like the worrying and being on stage

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is I remember, you know, Roseanne Cash

talking about her dad and, you know.

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Johnny Cash is awesome.

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That guy had some stuff going on, right?

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And he she said that he used the

stage to work through all that shit,

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Mike Kinnebrew: You know?

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That's awesome.

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Jason English (Host): yeah

So and I always remember that

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I'm like that's to your point.

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It's kind of the opposite It's

like why would you go out in front

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of public and bare your soul?

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When you're working on

stuff in front of strangers.

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Yeah.

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You know, and I always, I always thought

that was wild that she said that about

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Johnny Cash and then here you are.

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Yeah.

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Sort of affirming that.

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Yeah.

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Mike Kinnebrew: I think maybe, I'm

just like processing it in real time,

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but, you know, what, what we want as

people is, you know, when I say this

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is what I'm feeling, For someone to

go, yeah, me too, you know, I get that.

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And when you put it in a song and you

sing it and you see other people, it

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resonate with other people, then you're

up there going, okay, well, I guess

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I'm not the only one, you know, and

that that's more comforting than the

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best advice a therapist can give you is

just when someone else feels the same

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Jason English (Host): Yeah, no, that's

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Mike Kinnebrew: talk to a therapist

and you tell them something.

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And then they, when they tell it back

to you, it's not at all what you said.

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And you go.

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Where you even, you don't get me,

I don't want to be here, you know,

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immediately, but, uh, but when we, when

we give our songs to people and they

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resonate, that's, it's our way of being

told that we're not alone with, with

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our deep, dark fears and worries and all

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Jason English (Host): back to the initial

point is sentiment your middle name

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we talked about some of the songs your

most recent single was I miss you and

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that's obviously a song about your kids

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Mike Kinnebrew: Yeah, yeah,

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Jason English (Host): So like,

you know, I can relate to that.

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And then we, we talked about your

grandparents and the first and last.

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So like, you know, my parents will

be married 60 years this year.

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And it's um,

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Mike Kinnebrew: so,

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Jason English (Host): you know, that's

not like a heartbreak or not like

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a anxious sort of thing, but it's

like, that's, that's rare these days.

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I guess my point in saying that your

middle name could be sentiment is I could

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totally relate to everything, right?

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And I love that.

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Mike Kinnebrew: I hope that

people can relate to it.

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I,

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I

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I never.

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I never sit down and try to write about a

certain thing, you know, so, um, whatever

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comes, comes, but, but sometimes I wish

that they were just a little bit more,

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um, fun, and, you know what I mean,

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Jason English (Host): I get it.

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Mike Kinnebrew: like, why does it always

have to be so, there was this, uh, I

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did this, this shootout, this open mic

shootout thing where, um, it was in

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Duluth, I was in the finals, and it was

me and this other guy, and, I think I got

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this because it was the bracket thing.

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You know, you go head to head, head to

head against someone and then one person

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wins and goes on to the next and goes

on to the next and all the people that I

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was like, this person would take me out.

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They had.

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They had been beaten, um,

where I had knocked them out.

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And so by the time I was in the finals,

I was like, I think I got this guy.

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I think I'm, I think I can, I

think my song that I've saved

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is going to be better anyway.

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But I lost.

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And, uh, and then outside, uh, we're,

we're leaving and the judge is, uh,

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one of the judges, there were like

four judges, and one of the judges Uh,

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is he's been drinking all night and

he's like, uh, man, I like you, but I

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couldn't vote for you in that in the end.

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Now, side note, he ended up riding

back with the guy that beat me.

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They had ridden together from Nashville.

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That's a little, I go,

wait, y'all are together.

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But he goes, you know, I just, uh, you're

like, you're like too, uh, positive.

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You're like Luke Skywalker.

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And sometimes you just

want Darth Vader, you know?

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And I, and I went home and I

thought, Am I always that shiny

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and hopeful and everything has

like a happy ending and stuff.

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And, uh, and so I wrote like

my saddest song after that.

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And the first line was sometimes

I feel like I'm already dead,

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Jason English (Host):

Oh gosh, there you go.

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Mike Kinnebrew: but that was the

only time I sat down thinking,

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all right, I'm going to write and

this is, it's going to be dark.

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I'm going to be Darth Vader for this song.

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Um, but for the most part, I just

write whatever comes, you know?

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Um, but yeah, it is super sentimental.

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Jason English (Host): Oh, that's good.

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That's all.

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I love it.

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Uh, all right.

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So we talked about your singles,

uh, and, uh, I, I saw an Instagram

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that you'd spent time in Nashville,

obviously hanging out with Theo Vonn

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Mike Kinnebrew: Yeah, yeah,

we get ice cream together.

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You

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Jason English (Host): recording, right?

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So tell us about that.

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Tell us what you have planned.

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Mike Kinnebrew: So, um, I was

just gonna do about three songs

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with my friend Charlie Lowell.

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He's, um, he was in a band called

Jars of Clay back in the, uh, 90s.

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Jason English (Host):

Speaking of Christian music.

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Oh my gosh, it all

comes back, full circle.

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Mike Kinnebrew: um, Charlie played, uh,

Keys on, on the last few singles that I

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had done in Nashville with a guy named

Paul Moak was producing and, um, and

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Charlie and I hit it off and Charlie

has a studio in Nashville with another

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Jars of Clay guy, Matthew Audmark.

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And, uh, and, and so.

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Paul was going on the road

with Ann Wilson from Heart.

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He was playing guitar for her and so

he was gonna be kind of gone a bunch

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and I wanted to record and and Charlie

and I had been talking about it.

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So so I said let me take these singles

and we'll do like you know three

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songs and see see how it goes at

your studio and So we went and when

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we were done with those three songs.

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I said I think maybe we were on

the fence about one, like, should

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we do this one or do that one?

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I said, well, let's just do them both.

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I'll come back up.

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We'll do another song.

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And, and it just kind of kept spinning

out where I just kept going back.

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And, uh, we did 15 songs.

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So Charlie played

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Jason English (Host): three to 15.

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Mike Kinnebrew: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Um, so Charlie and Matt produced

it and, uh, it's at a place called

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Gray Matters Studio in Nashville

and, um, it's a great studio.

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Um, Nate Duggar played guitar, Nate's,

Drew Holcomb's, he's one of the neighbors

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and Rich Brinsfield, who's the bass

player, is one of the neighbors, uh,

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and so they played and, a guy named,

uh, Graham played drums and, uh, Kenny

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Hudson, um, who was in a band called

Vigilantes of Love back in the day.

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Do you remember Bill Mallonee?

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Yeah.

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Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh.

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Mike Kinnebrew: You

need to interview Bill.

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Jason English (Host): Can

I tell you about Bill?

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Please.

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Mike Kinnebrew: Bill's a buddy.

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Jason English (Host):

Okay, so here's the thing.

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There's a few artists, I think you

alluded to them earlier when you were

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like, Hey, some of it's not crap.

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When you're talking about Christian music.

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And then there are some that are like a

little bit Christian and a little bit not.

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So I would put

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Mike Kinnebrew: Bill's a lot of,

bit Christian and a lot of bit, not

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Jason English (Host): Yes, which is great.

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But it's like, Mark Heard, Pierce

Pettis, Rich Mullins, even though Rich

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was in the Christian music industry,

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Mike Kinnebrew: great songwriters,

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Jason English (Host): was probably,

you know, he was my favorite.

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Bill Mallonee

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Mike Kinnebrew: Uh,

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Jason English (Host): some of the

guys from Caedmon's Call, right?

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But like, there's this like,

group that wasn't crap.

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Mike Kinnebrew: Yeah.

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Jason English (Host): And the Vigilantes

of Love, welcome to Struggleville.

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Mike Kinnebrew: that album's so great.

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Yeah.

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Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh.

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So here's the thing I got, I just ordered.

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So Bill's really big at

on a band camp, I think,

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Mike Kinnebrew: Yeah.

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That's where he keeps all his stuff.

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Jason English (Host): yeah, he keeps

a lot of stuff and he sent out this

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thing and like, you know, get the vinyl.

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So I have, it's, it's still unwrapped.

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Welcome to Struggleville.

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It's a beautiful looking album.

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Uh,

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But he has a, he had a return address.

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And literally three weeks

ago, I wrote him a handwritten

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Mike Kinnebrew: Out in New

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Jason English (Host): out in New Mexico.

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I'm like, I don't think he's ever

going to see this, but I was like, Hey

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Bill, you know, I did the whole thing.

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Love your music.

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Blah, blah, blah.

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Would you be on my podcast?

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You know, and I haven't heard from him,

but, uh, that to me, like, okay, Taylor

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Swift is running the world right now.

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Would I love to talk to Taylor?

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Yes.

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But actually Bill would be amazing for

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Mike Kinnebrew: He, he's,

we'll have to make that

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Jason English (Host): Oh my gosh.

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This,

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Mike Kinnebrew: this, this episode will be

so piss poor compared to talking to Bill.

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He's so great, man.

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He's, uh, when I was in, I, I looked up

to him as much as anyone as a songwriter.

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And when I was in college.

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He always, like, he took the time to

talk to me when I was nobody, nobody.

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And, uh, I was in college.

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I remember emailing with him

about a paper I was writing.

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And he was telling me, like, who I should

write my freshman, like, English paper on.

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Uh, St.

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Francis of Assisi.

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Jason English (Host): Of Assisi.

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Was he a teacher at Athens?

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Mike Kinnebrew: I don't, I

don't know if he was a teacher.

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His son is a, is a, is a teacher.

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Um, but I don't know what he did

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Jason English (Host):

But he's from Athens.

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He's from Athens.

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That's amazing.

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So back to Kenny Hudson.

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Mike Kinnebrew: yeah.

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Kenny played, Kenny came in and

played guitars and that was a

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big, because I used to, as a

teenager, follow vigilantes around.

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And I can remember Kenny just

shredding on the guitar and

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the mandolin, the pedal steel.

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And, um, and then I played a show

actually at the 40 watt and Kenny

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was headlining with the band

and I was opening for him and I.

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I said, man, you were in

VOL and I just loved it.

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And so he and I kind of kept in

touch and it was a, it was a real,

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it was a big thing for me to get

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Jason English (Host): Yeah, that's amazing

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Mike Kinnebrew: someone

that you've, you know,

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Jason English (Host): up to for

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Mike Kinnebrew: looked

up to for a long time.

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Jason English (Host): mean, I,

back to Pace Magazine, uh, I think

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they were the only people you could

actually get live at the 40 watt.

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Which was a Vigilantes of Love

live album like 20 years ago,

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and I remember getting on CD, and

that's how I I'm not from Georgia.

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I grew up in the Midwest in

Colorado, but the 40 watt

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Mike Kinnebrew: uh, did,

did it have reach out there

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Jason English (Host): Yeah, yeah,

yeah, and it was it was like man

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that place looks cool And then

you know moved to Georgia, and I

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went to a show in Athens You know

recently and drove by the 40 watt.

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I'm like vigilantes of love there.

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It is so it's funny Well, that's good.

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I mean what an ensemble of musicians

That you just did that with.

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So did you, so the three songs that

you had, were they kind of a part

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of a, a theme and then 15 songs is a

lot, I guess, was that a backlog of

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songs and lyrics that you had been

working on for a number of years?

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So

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Mike Kinnebrew: we did this album,

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Those were all new songs.

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None of them had ever been recorded.

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And the, the performance, uh,

for that album was the first time

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they were performed live at all.

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and so some of those songs had

never, I just felt like the

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live treatment wasn't the only.

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I wanted to give them their day

in the studio and like, let's

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see what we can do with them.

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Uh, produce them.

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So about six of the songs are like

first and last is, um, was, was on

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the live at Eddie's album, but we

actually took it in the studio and,

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and did a sort of a different treatment

of it, but then, then the other,

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the rest of them are all new songs.

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Um, and, uh, Yeah, yeah, it's a song

called Good Day, um, will probably be

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the first single, and then there's a

song called Something Bad, which is like,

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definitely like the other end of the

spectrum of Good Day, they all kind of

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came out around the same time as far as,

of a season of writing for a few months.

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Jason English (Host): That's awesome.

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Is there a, is there a theme that

will draw it all kind of together?

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And will you have 15 songs on an album?

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Or will you, will you save

some for something else?

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Mike Kinnebrew: I was looking at,

um, I was watching, speaking of

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documentaries, that wallflower, not, not

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not

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wildflowers, Tom Petty, uh,

about the making of the album.

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And at some point, you know, they're

going, we have so many songs.

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So now let's just decide what's

going to go on the album, you know?

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And so I think I'll probably whittle

that down to 10 or 12 and go, this'll

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be the album for the reason that

you said, you know, what actually.

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thematically kind of fits and then

just have two or three songs to just

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Um, one of the songs that we did was a

cover, which I've never recorded before.

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I never recorded a cover, but it was,

uh, These Days by Jackson Browne.

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Jason English (Host): um,

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Mike Kinnebrew: which is like just a

really sensitive, uh, um, song that he

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wrote when he was like 15 years old.

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And, uh, so that one may be

not go on the album, but maybe

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just be released as a single.

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Jason English (Host): Okay.

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Okay.

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By the way, and this is

kinda goes back to curiosity.

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What's the process of actually

being able to cover an artist?

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Like, do you have to get

permission, approval?

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What kind of a process is that?

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Mike Kinnebrew: I think it used to be

more difficult than it, than it is now.

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Um, but I'm not sure.

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I'm about to find out.

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Jason English (Host): Are you?

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Okay,

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Mike Kinnebrew: we release it.

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I gotta, I gotta go

through the right channels,

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Jason English (Host): check the boxes,

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Mike Kinnebrew: But yeah, there

was, it used to be sort of a,

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almost, The impression I had was,

It's more trouble than it's worth.

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You know, um, you might just wanna not.

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put someone else's song on your record.

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Um, but now I think

maybe it's just easier.

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Jason English (Host): Because YouTube

is riddled with covers of people and

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you know, and so it's like okay did the

rules loosen, you know In the streaming,

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you know, you get you know a sixteenth

of a penny for every stream And if

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you cover somebody, like how does, you

know, do they get, you know, a third

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of that, you know, like, you know,

but it seems it's more prevalent now.

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Mike Kinnebrew: Yeah, it

definitely seems more prevalent.

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And maybe it's just because just

technology has streamlined the permissions

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and the, you know, back when I was

first recording music, it was, you

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know, snail mail and, um, like I'm

going to write Jackson Brown and ask

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him or the, I just think it's probably

a lot easier and more expedited to, or

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efficient to, to get those permissions,

but I'm going to have to check those

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boxes, uh, before I release it.

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But I did do a, uh, I did a version of it.

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And put it on, um, I think TikTok,

uh, or Instagram, or probably both,

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because they're linked together.

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But, Jackson Brown shared it.

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Like, his official

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Jason English (Host): Oh, that's cool.

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Mike Kinnebrew: was, that was really

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Jason English (Host):

Yeah, that's really cool.

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So do you know if that's going

to be on the album for sure?

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I mean, have you picked the

10 or 12 yet or not really?

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Mike Kinnebrew: them yet, no.

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Jason English (Host): Yeah.

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What's the timing of that?

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Do you think

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Mike Kinnebrew: I can start releasing

them as early as next month.

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Um, I need to get my shit together

and figure out what's, what's

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going to go on and, and what order.

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And there's a lot of that stuff,

artwork and, and all that, you know.

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Do you have a name for

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Jason English (Host): know.

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Yeah.

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In the back

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Mike Kinnebrew: yeah, if I've in the

back of my mind, good day has been the

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single that I thought would go off first.

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So maybe the album is called good day.

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There's a song called

something bad and good day.

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So maybe, um, good day and something bad.

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It could be the album title,

but they are, they're two sides

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of the same coin, you know?

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Um,

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Jason English (Host):

Well, that's exciting.

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Uh, in closing, I guess, at this

point in your life and career,

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What are you most curious about?

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Mike Kinnebrew: Mm.

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Uh, that's a great question.

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I think I would be most curious

about where life could take me if

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I, um, just keep saying yes and keep

putting one foot in front of the

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other, you know, not letting fear

or insecurity or anything like that.

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Um, cause me to settle

and just be stagnant.

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Um, but the last, I I've been busier

with music this year than I ever have

419

been and I think that is because I

just decided to go Well, I wonder

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what would happen if I just kept

walking forward, you know and didn't

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didn't stop.

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because I was afraid that maybe I'm

too old or maybe I'm, uh, you know,

423

not good enough or maybe whatever.

424

And those were reasons that

would cause me to stop.

425

And, and, uh, just started saying yes

to everything and ended up becoming,

426

you know, way busier than I've ever

been and have more things on the books.

427

And so I'm still curious to see where life

takes me if I'll just keep doing that.

428

awesome.

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Jason English (Host): I love that

answer, uh, cause you've got,

430

you have so many years ahead of

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Mike Kinnebrew: you.

432

It's what's left of me.

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It's um, you know, it's okay.

434

Um, rather than falling into that

thinking of well, whatever I was

435

going to do, I guess I've done it,

you know, um, for better or worse.

436

I've done whatever and now it's just time

to accept it for what it is, but go, no,

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I mean, there's still life to be lived

and let's see, I wonder what we could do.

438

Jason English (Host): mean, think about

how many songs you still have in you.

439

Yeah.

440

Right?

441

Yeah.

442

I mean, seriously.

443

Mike Kinnebrew: And it's so exciting

to have a new song and go oh,

444

they're still every songwriter.

445

I think feels like the last song was like

446

like Maybe

447

that's it.

448

Maybe I don't have the well is dry now.

449

And when you have a new song, it's like

oh, man There's still something in me.

450

That's great that I have to still have

something to say or something to give

451

Jason English (Host): Yeah.

452

Well, appreciate your time.

453

you play us some music?

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Mike Kinnebrew: Yeah, man

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Jason English (Host): All right.

456

Thanks, Mike.

457

Really appreciate it.

458

Thanks so much for joining us for

another episode of Curious Goldfish.

459

Please follow and subscribe to

the podcast and on social media.

460

Also tell your music loving

friends about us too.

461

Until next time, stay curious.