Shownotes
A question from a CSO listener we thought deserved its own episode for a response - thanks Belinda!
I would love to hear a talk about American idols. Historically, who did Americans idolize? Or perhaps more appropriately, who did we hold in high regard and love and respect? Today, there is dysfunctional idolization of the Kardashians. What did they do to deserve to be treated like national treasures? I heard someone say once they are America's royalty. What??? I will not take your time to get on my soapbox about that one. And what is the purpose of those pulling the media strings to make us believe we must wait with bated breath to know when the last loving glance between Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce occurred? Is it a psyop to garner votes for Biden from a certain demographic, or to distract us from what matters? As an aside, because of the "plandemic" I have been introduced to countless Americans I have grown to admire, love and respect through their podcasts. These are "my people" who have helped lessen the feelings of being alone during the insanity that has ensued since 2020. There are so many including my many "sheep" friends unable to see the truth.
Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.
Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.
Brett Johnson is an award-winning podcast consultant and small business owner for nearly 10 years, leaving a long career in radio. He is passionate about helping small businesses tell their story through podcasts, and he believes podcasting is a great opportunity for different voices to speak and be heard.
info@commonsenseohioshow.com
Recorded at the 511 Studios, in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH.
Copyright 2024 Common Sense Ohio
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/
Transcripts
Alright. We are rolling back on the air. Commonsenseohioshow.com. Not your ordinary show, though, but still nonetheless brought to you by Harper Plus Accounting. Check out all our content on Harper Plus Accounting, and you can figure out why you should also use Harper Plus Accounting for your accounting needs. Small business, just a little guy, one tax return a year type person doesn't make any difference. They got the resources for you. And, obviously, you can check out our content at common ohioshow.com because you wouldn't be the only one.
Steve Palmer [:We have a a listener, Belinda, who has done just that, and she had sent a a topic. So those who have listened regularly, thank you, by the way. But we always ask, if you have topics that you want us to cover, if you have things that you want us to talk about, if you have a question you want us to try to answer, we don't profess to know everything, but we do profess to, making our best effort to put a common sense approach on various topics, both political, social, economic, whatever the situation would be. And, Belinda, a regular listener, I'm gonna I'm pulling it up right now. We're gonna read her question. First of all, we'll skip to the end because I I I sincerely thank you, Belinda, for your comments here, and they were they were most generous. She, she talks about her people and the people that she trusts to provide information, and she puts us in that group of people. I'm very humbled by that because, you know, who are we to earn that moniker? Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Quite frankly.
Brett Johnson [:But thank you. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:But thank you very much. Steve Norm Bretz, she writes, you are also my people, and I enjoy hearing you speak on all your various topics. You speak from the heart, and when you do not agree with each other, you give us food for thought. Do not underestimate how valuable your podcasts are. And, you know, the and thank you obviously. This Belinda, this hits home for us because you know what, as we come down here every week and do the show, Norm, particularly, you put a lot of time into this thing, researching the news stories. I know, Brett, you do the same, and I do the same. And we it's not like we're making money, 1,000,000 of dollars hand over fist to do this.
Steve Palmer [:We do this, pro bono in my legal to in my legal profession. It means for the good for the good of the people, and we do it because we enjoy having these discussions. I think it's I I get something from it, of course, but we try to share something with it as well.
Norm Murdock [:I learned from you guys.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Then same here. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. And so, Belinda, thank you. That's, that's a very such kind words, and and we are all at the table humbled by this. But back to your question, which is really sort of and I will I will confess. I spent the better part. We got this question earlier in the week, and I spent several days actually pondering. I didn't know how to answer at first. And Norm, you had a nice response to her in writing that we'll get to, but something dawned on me when I was interviewing somebody else in another show this week, but we'll get to it.
Steve Palmer [:She says, I would love to hear a talk about American Idols. Historically, who did Americans idolize? Or perhaps more appropriately, who do we hold in high regard and love and respect? Today, there is dysfunctional idolization of the Kardashians. What do they do to deserve to be treated like national treasures? I heard someone say once they're America's royalty. What? I will not take your time to get on my soapbox about that one, but what is the purpose of pulling the media strings to make us believe that we must wait with bated breath to know what the last loving glance between Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce occurred? Is it a psyop to garner votes for Biden from a certain demographic or to distract us from what matters as an aside? Because and and I won't go into it next, but, it is, sort of thought provoking. Right? Like, who are the American Idols? And we're not talking about the TV show, obviously, but we're talking about the people who are idolized either in social media or in the media or, generally speaking. Like, who do we who do we worship
Norm Murdock [:Yep.
Steve Palmer [:As as our role models, maybe, is really what what she's talking about. It's like and and she points out rather sarcastically here that the Kardashians are hardly role models, yet they are the people, like, we we follow with bated breath what these people are doing. Yeah. So it's, it's it intrigued me, this question, because, you know, who and then I think she asked historically, who were the American Idols that that our grandpa parents rather or even maybe their grandparents
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Would have looked up to. And I I have some thoughts on it, but I will turn over the forum to you guys first.
Brett Johnson [:I kinda wonder if the role model concept is fairly new. Did did people have role models back in 17/76?
Steve Palmer [:Well, I think
Brett Johnson [:Not I mean early America.
Steve Palmer [:I think they had role models, but I think the pool of of those who could be role models was a was a much smaller pool because they didn't have social media. They didn't have this
Brett Johnson [:It was kind of your circle
Steve Palmer [:of people
Brett Johnson [:around you.
Steve Palmer [:Or maybe a president, traveling by train on campaign or a political figure Yeah. Riding through, might have been I heard stories. It's great. I never didn't think about what this because I there's, like, George Washington after he turned down the offer to be king. King. Sort of enjoyed riding the countryside as a surveyor, and he would he would knock on doors and stay with people. Mhmm. And and, like, it it'd be like Airbnb, except they were still there.
Steve Palmer [:You know, he would he would stay with people. So he was a role model, I think, for people. And and, you know, if he weren't, they wouldn't have let him stay there. You know, it's like, who the heck are you? But he, at some point, became famous enough where people were comfortable having George Washington sort of alone knock on their door and say, hey, you mind if I hang out for a few nights while I travel? And he would and they said, yes. And, you know, that was without Facebook, Instagram Yeah. TikTok, YouTube, 247 CNN. I mean, we didn't even have 247 news when we were kids.
Brett Johnson [:No. No. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:You know, we had to listen to the National Anthem at 12 at midnight.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. I guess, I because I was kind of thinking about this too. It's like, you know, who it's who is, who was my role model? And and then I got to thinking about why are the Kardashians role models? I mean, is it the lacking of that person who thinks that the role model of their life not having one in their own circle of their family. They might role models my dad.
Steve Palmer [:Right. Are you know? So disconnected from
Brett Johnson [:from I didn't put I didn't put him on a pedestal. I just learned so much from him and I think we all can say that about her. And I think we should you you look in your family. Is and and maybe a role model wasn't truly the the the the the what the phrase is, but it's that but I think that fits that definition.
Steve Palmer [:Mhmm.
Brett Johnson [:Every time I do something, I think about or in regards to what he was good at. I think about that. How you how would you tell me to do this?
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. What would you say, Dan?
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. You know?
Norm Murdock [:This this question opens up so many cans of worms. You know, today's today's youth seem to be obsessed with celebrity culture to the point that there are these influencers, and there are these people that that live out their lives with a a live camera on them 247, you know, showing every activity that they do if they, you know, if they're cleansing their face because they have pimples or if they're eating, peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch. You know, there is this drive now that's almost culture wide to be famous. Mhmm. To be somebody
Brett Johnson [:There's money in being an influencer as a YouTube. I mean, people It's become wanna be their career.
Norm Murdock [:Become a thing
Steve Palmer [:where This this Hock Tui girl. Right?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. It's like
Steve Palmer [:this Right. You know? You know? Right. Spring Factory. Now she's on Yeah. And but you know what? That's gonna be a shooting star, and she's a she's a role model for a few weeks. And, it's I think people it's already Yeah. People are already sick of it.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Right.
Norm Murdock [:And you just but but what what did it what it sort of says, so this is a way of coming back behind Linda Belinda's question a little bit, is that not only maybe do we have many of the wrong idols and heroes selected for all the wrong reasons, but we have a rush of people who now wanna be those heroes and wanna be those idols. Right?
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. So things have really changed in that.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. And many of them have accomplished like the Kardashians.
Steve Palmer [:Nothing.
Norm Murdock [:Nothing.
Steve Palmer [:At least nothing of
Norm Murdock [:importance. Of importance.
Brett Johnson [:Right? And that would that's a a very good point. That they're raising their hand to be a role model.
Norm Murdock [:To be a role model.
Steve Palmer [:Me. Me. Look at me. It's a very narcissistic. Narcissistic. So I I you know, as I gave this thought, I was interviewing a guy who owns a local, firearm shop. And, we were talking about sort of the lack of he's he's busy these days because he's selling a lot of guns. He's selling a lot of guns, and he's also a police officer.
Steve Palmer [:But he's selling a lot of guns because people are worried that they're not feeling safe on the streets. Yeah. Right? So people are and whether that's true or not, that's the that's the feeling. Yeah. And, it got me thinking. You know, there was an era back in the late sixties where we we sort of had similar policies in place in our country, about I guess, it resulted in some chaos, I will say. Crime in New York was out of control. Crime in in San Francisco and l I mean, it was all out of control.
Steve Palmer [:And then that sort of created this backlash that came along in the in the seventies eighties for, Law and Order.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:And and and and it would it dawned on me during that conversation that the role model, like, one of the the movie characters, the people I was looking at back in the late seventies, and I was born in 1970, so I was still pretty young. But it would have been, the one that came to me like that was Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry.
Norm Murdock [:Yep. For sure.
Steve Palmer [:And he was this, he was this, like, this backlash of the highest order of this
Norm Murdock [:They called him an antihero.
Steve Palmer [:An antihero. Right. Right?
Norm Murdock [:Because he he definitely wasn't a sweet, nice, you know. I mean, he was Still he was addressing violence with counter violence.
Steve Palmer [:With counter violence. Right. As a backlash to this this free for all crime defund.
Norm Murdock [:As opposed to. Right? Like, go the generation before Gary Cooper in High Noon.
Brett Johnson [:Right.
Norm Murdock [:If you wanna look at pop culture. In that movie, he went around trying to get the citizens of this little town, right Yep. To back him up. Because he's the he's the only law enforcement officer in that little town and the bad guy's coming on a train Yep. To kill him.
Steve Palmer [:Yep. Right?
Norm Murdock [:And and and and they all flake. In the final analysis,
Steve Palmer [:He's he's standing alone.
Norm Murdock [:It's just him.
Steve Palmer [:And what's interesting about Clint Eastwood and some of the predecessors he brought up, I think, Brett, you and I talked about this the other day.
Brett Johnson [:John Wayne.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. John Wayne apparently would not work with Eastwood and criticized Eastwood because he believed that Eastwood's portrayal of that figure, was was wrong. That the the people in the west deserved better in that time frame or whatever it was.
Norm Murdock [:He wasn't into antiheroes.
Steve Palmer [:He was not into antiheroes. He was into the patriotic thing. So the generation before Eastwood had a different role model.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:You know, would have been the John Mulaney self sacrifice. Like
Norm Murdock [:Sam Zavirojima. Yeah.
Brett Johnson [:You know?
Steve Palmer [:You know, and some of that was propaganda coming out of the
Brett Johnson [:first astronauts. Yeah. They became role models. They became role models. Put their lives on the line. Absolutely.
Steve Palmer [:So this doesn't answer the question.
Norm Murdock [:Space cowboys. Yeah. That's what that's what the astronauts were. Yeah. They were the latter day cowboys. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Yep. For for the next show. I had I had lunch boxes with spacemen on them.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, absolutely.
Steve Palmer [:And, so, really, that this doesn't answer the question. And I was I was wondering as I thought about this, it really doesn't answer the question. And I'm not sure the question has an answer other than to say this. I think our role models reflect the culture.
Norm Murdock [:For sure.
Steve Palmer [:So the role and they're not our role models. They're they're the people who get elevated to this place. They reflect the culture or where the culture is going. And the Kardashians, when they emerged and say and what was that? Like, the 2000 ish?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. I guess. Right.
Steve Palmer [:You know, maybe maybe a little later. When they emerged, there was, like, this free for all. Do what you want. You know, kids go party and have fun, and, you know, life was sort of good. It was before the 08
Norm Murdock [:It was driven a lot by, Bruce Jenner marrying the mother. Yeah. Right? And then, you know And
Steve Palmer [:then you had Britney Spears in the news with Paris Hilton in the news and the Kardashians in the news and all this stuff.
Norm Murdock [:Right.
Steve Palmer [:And these were crew. And these were, like, the these were, like, the role models of the like, these reflected the culture of these people. Yeah. And then as you guys pointed out that I didn't give much thought to is, like, now in today's day and age, these role models are emerging. They're not even famous people or even remotely related to famous people. They are not they were quite the opposite. They are normal people who have made themselves they've pushed themselves up to this pedestal. Look at me.
Steve Palmer [:Model. Look at me. Look at me. And I think that reflects the culture in a lot of ways. It's a very narcissistic culture that we like, the world should revolve around the individual, and you should you should believe what I tell you to believe. And if I say I'm a woman, you have to agree even though I'm a man. And if you don't use my pronouns, then then shame on you. That's a that's a microaggression that's tantamount to violence.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:I mean, it's like, these things reflect the culture. And I when people are elevating themselves into that, it's a direct reflection of the culture because who on earth thinks that they're that important? Yeah. Now like you pointed out, Brett, it might have something to do with money. And what are we doing? You know, we are pushing ourselves out there, and we're we're sort of doing the same thing. Now I it's it's not as gaudy or crass obviously, and we're trying to be genuine about it, and we're not talking about Hock Tooie spitting on somebody's genitals. But, you know, it it's like we're doing it too. So the culture now is a grassroots, news culture. So
Norm Murdock [:I don't think any of us 3, it's certainly not me, are holding ourselves out as heroes or idols, though.
Steve Palmer [:Of course not. Right? Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, that that would be the difference between what we're putting out.
Steve Palmer [:But I'm not sure the Kardashians are either. I think they're just out there, and they're enjoying their money, and they're enjoying their fame. And you've got, like I said, that that was they came out of that culture that in my head, I'm thinking Britney Spears not wearing underwear, getting out of the limousine with Paris Hilton, you know, and you get those, it's just like this. I remember looking at that, like, gosh. This is so
Norm Murdock [:But I think Belinda's when she used the word idol, I'm thinking idolatry. And and I'm thinking of false gods. I'm thinking of people
Steve Palmer [:that All these people are false gods.
Norm Murdock [:That's what I'm saying.
Steve Palmer [:All these people are.
Norm Murdock [:And and I think they are deliberately trying to be famous. And Paris Hilton's a great example. She's an just like the Kardashians. She she's not a singer. She's not an actress. She's just an heiress.
Steve Palmer [:And she's not even look. Even when I first saw her, it's like she she didn't match, like, what was the hottest girl of the girls at that point. You know? She's not I mean, she's she's just a rich heiress, like you said. Yeah. But she puts herself out there. So then there's but there's other people that become idols like Clint Eastwood. He was just an actor in the movies, but he is sort of, like, you know, people still have his big life-sized poster on the walls or the back of their door, you know, in his movies, you know, and the same with John Wayne and the same with Elvis and the same with, so those be those people sort of maybe they came by a little bit more naturally, I suppose. But either way, they were idolized in their day.
Steve Palmer [:And I think all that does I don't think it tells us anything as much as, it shows us. It it's a it's a mirror for the culture.
Norm Murdock [:I agree with you. If
Steve Palmer [:so Or or or maybe it's a it's a, I cut you. But let me No. That's okay. Yeah. That's a
Norm Murdock [:good thought, man.
Steve Palmer [:Maybe it's a compass pointing in the direction of where the culture is going at times too. Yeah. You know, I don't know what comes first.
Norm Murdock [:I think I think our electronic culture so if you go back starting with, let's say, radio, then TV, then the Internet, I think I think those new technologies as they rolled out and continue now with AI, they continue to roll out. I mean, are we gonna get at some point an AI hero who's not even not even a real person?
Steve Palmer [:Like, how about Max Headroom?
Brett Johnson [:Max Headroom came
Norm Murdock [:to my mind too. Exactly. Alexa. Yeah. You know, people people talk to this device. Yeah. I mean, I go into my system. Sister
Brett Johnson [:in my
Norm Murdock [:house. My son's house, Alexa. Would you please turn on the soft lighting and the Hawaiian murals?
Brett Johnson [:And they're and they're encouraging you when you type to AI to speak to it as a person. Yeah. So it so it does what you want. So, yeah, we're we're personalized. We're humanizing Yep. This thing that has the potential. You're right.
Steve Palmer [:And the the other difference we have today is that the classic Hollywood, you know, those like the Errol Flynn's or, you know, Marilyn Monroe
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Or Gregory Peck or Jimmy Stewart Yeah. Or Henry Fonda or the, you know, these sort of the people that built Hollywood Yeah. In some respects
Norm Murdock [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:They were also protected. You know, the studios protected those people
Brett Johnson [:from all had major flaws.
Steve Palmer [:Of course. They they protected him from
Brett Johnson [:the the discretion. Flaws, but they had They
Steve Palmer [:were all human.
Brett Johnson [:He's he's that. She's that.
Steve Palmer [:Well, some of them were gay, and they protected him from that. Some of them were Jewish, and they protected him from that.
Brett Johnson [:You know?
Steve Palmer [:Some of them just had affairs with each other, and they protected him from that. Right. You know, Bob Crane notoriously, you know, it's like all these but they were protected and now they're not. Now they're not. So the idols that would that were emerged out of Hollywood were given were portrayed as something they probably were not in order to manipulate what people thought of them. Yeah. And now that protection is gone. You know, it's and even the presidents were protected.
Steve Palmer [:It wasn't published even though everybody knew Kennedy was sleeping with everybody and their mother. And, you know, it's like, that he was protected from that. When Clinton did it, not so much. Yeah. And when Trump did it, not so much. You know, everything gets exposed. So then maybe that's why these people emerge because it's it's now that everything's on Front Street anyway and the idols aren't protected, it's, I guess, the natural progression is, well, he can do it, I can do it. So here we go.
Norm Murdock [:I think I think in Hollywood that Rubicon got crossed in the Marlon Brando line when, you know, they asked him, what what what are you so you know, in the movie. We what are you so mad about? What are you so like, what are you rebelling against? And he he leans back and he's got the cigarette and he goes, I don't know, man. What do you got?
Steve Palmer [:That one that that was, Jimmy's or, who died in the movie.
Norm Murdock [:It was Marlon Brando in the movie where he's a motorcycle guy with a trophy and the handlebars. The Wild Boys? Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:The Wild Ones. I thought
Norm Murdock [:that was Jimmy
Steve Palmer [:or not Jimmy Stewart. He was the guy who died in the car.
Norm Murdock [:You're thinking of James.
Steve Palmer [:James Dean.
Norm Murdock [:James Dean. Yeah. Yeah. What are you what
Steve Palmer [:are you rebelling against? What do you got? Right?
Norm Murdock [:He had the same he has the same answer. I don't know, man, what do you got?
Steve Palmer [:Yep. You
Norm Murdock [:know, and it's it's like then the anti heroes became the the new idols. It was like
Steve Palmer [:And then what emerged from there? So the next generation you've got, the movie we talked about yesterday, Brett,
Brett Johnson [:lost it.
Steve Palmer [:Dennis Hopper and
Brett Johnson [:Oh, yeah. Easy Rider?
Steve Palmer [:Easy Rider. You know? Yeah. Right. It's like so you had those guys sort of like these Right? He's like, hey, man. Free free love. We're doing whatever we want. Let's party now. Party scene where they're
Norm Murdock [:all high. Yeah. And they they've stuffed their gas
Steve Palmer [:tanks full of drugs and money to to so But you know what we're describing here? We're
Brett Johnson [:not just we're never idolizing the person they portrayed. The personality. Right.
Steve Palmer [:Right. The persona. That that's a great
Brett Johnson [:great call point. Because I love George Harrison. But guess what? I love George Harrison as Indiana Jones, though. I love Indiana Jones. Harrison Ford Harrison Ford.
Steve Palmer [:Harrison Ford. Excuse me.
Brett Johnson [:I love the character Indiana Jones.
Norm Murdock [:I like George Harrison.
Brett Johnson [:But I like George Harrison too, of course.
Steve Palmer [:So, you know,
Norm Murdock [:very interesting
Steve Palmer [:point. Very interesting point. So we're idolizing the Kardashians, and that that's who they are, or at least that's who they're portraying themselves to be. Not in a movie, not a character, but a real person. So maybe that's been a big shift. So now
Norm Murdock [:Because they did reality TV. I mean, that was the whole
Steve Palmer [:idea. Another good
Norm Murdock [:thing. The Osbournes.
Steve Palmer [:Maybe these people came out of reality TV. You know? The the fear factor. And and
Norm Murdock [:You just let it all hang out?
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. You know?
Norm Murdock [:Right. The the naked on the island show, whatever the hell that was.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. With the
Norm Murdock [:You know what was it? Survivor.
Steve Palmer [:I mean,
Brett Johnson [:it has been seasons or something.
Norm Murdock [:They got a tree
Steve Palmer [:that wasn't really reality, still manipulated. And these people became so that sort of that sort of laid this this path forward for
Norm Murdock [:Well, I wanna even so to, you know, be in my little essay back to Belinda, which is, you know, people can read it on the website if they want. But I I would like to talk a little bit about the pre electronic heroes. So if you go back to the Roman Colosseum or Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan or the popes Yeah. For the Roman Catholic Church, We before there was any kind of electronic media, you were compelled to either tell stories, oral history, or, you know, whether it was hieroglyphics or whether it was the, you know, the Bible. You know? We were we were compelled to pass down knowledge in a written form only, where you didn't get unless you were a handful of the people around Jesus or Alexander the Great or the great, you know, gladiators. The the one gladiator had so much gold. He had more gold than Caesar himself. There were and they don't even know
Brett Johnson [:what happened.
Steve Palmer [:Well, and not much different today. Yeah. You know, sponsors.
Norm Murdock [:This is what I'm saying. Yeah. So so, Belinda, we had, you know, human beings have had these idols prior to. But now, with the with the electronic media, anybody
Steve Palmer [:But those idols, like, they they capture our interest. They capture our imagination. They they they Yeah. Like, idols traditionally provided us with some imaginary understanding of what we could be, you know, what's a hero like. And and so when the boxers would come around and and fight, you know, the whether it was John l Sullivan or and, you know, it's like, those those were, like, those those were the huge draws that baseball players
Norm Murdock [:Muhammad Ali.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. Well, later on. But this is before TV.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Before TV.
Steve Palmer [:And then when radio came along. But it it you know, Beck, the other thing that you you brought
Norm Murdock [:Jesse Owens at the Olympics.
Steve Palmer [:Jesse Owens at the Olympics.
Norm Murdock [:Other than the news reels. Right? There wasn't TV.
Steve Palmer [:Court cases. People would go into the center of town and go into the courthouse than this that was when court houses had balconies because they needed extra space for seating. People would that would be the entertainment. Entertainment.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:You know, and so The Scopes monkey trial.
Steve Palmer [:But the idols became the figures of what what people wanted to be. And again, it goes back to my point. It reflected the culture of what It reflected the culture. And and now if to the extent that Kardashians are reflecting the culture, it's a scary place for our society. So I thought Pac Tooie girl has become so, you know So so so
Norm Murdock [:I think our culture is very we have a very surface level culture, in my opinion. Yeah. We we don't really break down somebody's reputation or somebody's worth as an idol, like we would have, say back in the literature days. Mhmm. So I posited to Belinda in response. Do you think somebody like Abraham Lincoln? Just just to pick out a historical figure, who was arguably not physically attractive. Right? Is said to have had a kind of a funny squeaky voice as did general Patton, by the way. Another guy that he's they said he had almost a feminine, very high pitched voice.
Norm Murdock [:But you you take somebody from the pre electronic age and you just wonder in today so I think most Americans, probably 90%, would say Abraham Lincoln was a great man. Flawed like any man, but a great man and was a great president, and there he is up on Mount Rushmore for god's sake. So I'm gonna say if if you if you accept that notion and say Abraham Lincoln was great, here in 20, you know, 24, if Abraham Lincoln was running for president, I don't think he I don't think I think because of this physical attributes, we are so shallow today that we would not accept him as a legitimate candidate.
Steve Palmer [:The he's not the only type of idol, and he's a different type of idol than the Kardashians. So at the time of Abraham Lincoln, I'm sure there was somebody who was more of a pop culture idol. Yeah. People it might have been a boxer, might have been, somebody like that. But Right. And and so in today's day and age, you've got the Kardashians. Then you've also got, like, you know, we saw our political figures. But then, you know, the it's not just the Kardashians.
Steve Palmer [:We have other people that we idolize, and maybe we idolize some people with a little bit of just interest. So why do I care what the Kardashians are doing today? I don't know. Because it's like bubble it's like, drinking Kool Aid and, reading a comic book instead of reading It's
Brett Johnson [:an escape.
Steve Palmer [:Escape is I'll
Norm Murdock [:I'll throw you 2 more examples real quick. So take William Howard Taft, take James Garfield. 2 very fat presidents. I mean, rotund. Obese. Right. Obese. And I'm not this is not my favorite politician for policy reasons, but take Chris Christie today.
Norm Murdock [:Mhmm. Right? Oh my god. His all you hear from these comedians and pundits and whatever is not really about what Christie, you know, Chris Christie thinks. It's not about his policy positions. There is this instant rejection of him because of what he looks like. Yeah. And they talk about it. Instant rejection of him because of what he looks like.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:And they talk about it. Oh, he's fat. He's he can't control himself. Yeah. Yeah. And in in in in a past age, our idols, our heroes, people
Steve Palmer [:that But you didn't see them either.
Norm Murdock [:So This is what That's my point.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. You didn't have to see them.
Norm Murdock [:It was literature. You learned about their candidacy by reading a paper.
Steve Palmer [:On the classic the the, you know, the turning point for that was the Kennedy Nixon debate that was on public TV. You know? Yes. Nixon was coming off the flu or something. He was all sweaty and didn't look really good, sort of ashen and
Norm Murdock [:Yep.
Steve Palmer [:It's black and white. But, you know, there's Kennedy, polished, very attractive guy. Yep. You know, he's like, oh, boy, he just captured the youth.
Norm Murdock [:And the polling reflected this is great for Belinda's question. The polling reflected that the TV viewers said, Kennedy won that debate. The people who listened on radio.
Steve Palmer [:Thought Nixon won.
Norm Murdock [:Said Nixon won.
Steve Palmer [:Yeah. There you go.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:There you go.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, it's almost
Steve Palmer [:And that could be skewed too because the people on radio may may be a different demographic than the people watching on TV. But the the point is that, it it's our what we have seen and what we're exposed to now in the media is so much more, ubiquitous than it ever was. So we would learn about somebody because they came and stomped literally stood on a stump and talked to us at the town square before they went on to the next town in Indiana.
Norm Murdock [:Well, there was also more humility in our culture.
Steve Palmer [:Well Our culture did not Seriousness.
Norm Murdock [:Well, our culture also did not judge people based on physical attributes as much as
Steve Palmer [:I don't know that. You might be right.
Norm Murdock [:As much as. So compare it to You
Steve Palmer [:might be right.
Norm Murdock [:I'm not saying we never did. I'm saying as much as we do now.
Steve Palmer [:And I don't think you you you very well may be right about that.
Norm Murdock [:I mean, you mentioned Paris Hilton. Right? And the immediate impression was, well, she's not the hot thing. Right? Is at what you said. And I think that that's like like people go to that now almost immediately. They wanna know what you look like.
Steve Palmer [:And just to to just
Norm Murdock [:so I What is the content of
Steve Palmer [:your character? The point of me bringing that up was that at the time, the supermodels had a look, and Paris Hilton didn't really match that look. So I I'm trying to come up with a reason why she would be idolized. Yeah. And it's not just by her looks. It's because she's a rich heiress
Brett Johnson [:Yep.
Steve Palmer [:Who who had sort of a flamboyant way about her. Right. And then these people were intentionally releasing sex videos. I mean, it's like it it that reflects the culture.
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Tommy Lee and the and the Baywatch lady.
Steve Palmer [:That wasn't intentional. But
Norm Murdock [:Well, it was on his part, wasn't it? No. Oh, really?
Steve Palmer [:No. Somebody his his I guess his his some contractor working his house stole it off something like that and then sold it. There's there's there's actually a documentary. Certainly. The documentary is true. It's a very interesting movie. Yeah. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:A true document. Whatever. But so anyway, I don't think we've answered Belinda's question totally, but we at least had a little bit of a discussion about it. And it is probably worthy of more thought as we go forward. But Mhmm. The only conclusion I could come to answer her question is that who we idolize reflects our culture. And then who then it begs the question, what comes first? The culture or the idol? And who is leading whom? Is that the right way to say it? Who's who who's the leader? Is it the idol, or is it the culture? Who like, are these idols pulling us in some way that we're already inclined to go, Or are we just falling victim to, you know, maybe, a movement without real intent. You know, we're just sort of meandering down the stream, so to speak, and and we don't really know what we're doing.
Steve Palmer [:But, ah, that's interesting over there. I'll watch that for a while.
Norm Murdock [:There has been a bit of a backlash to this worship of beauty. And I'll I'll speak up for, Les Wexner, where his, his company, for a while experimented with putting out models that did not fit this archetype of perfection. Right? They they were a little older. Maybe they had some fat.
Steve Palmer [:I'm talking about the the Abercrombie. When there was a big backlash with Abercrombie.
Norm Murdock [:Well, and also with, mister Wexner's, that but but what's the,
Steve Palmer [:limited?
Norm Murdock [:Yeah. Yeah. Well, no.
Steve Palmer [:The Oh, no. Victoria Secret. Victoria Secret.
Norm Murdock [:Right. So you didn't have
Steve Palmer [:by then, he might have sold. But I get your point. I know what your point is. Yeah.
Norm Murdock [:Well, you didn't have these people coming down the aisle with wings on that had, you know, 36, 24, 36 perfect figures or whatever it was. Now you had, older women, maybe a little, overweight, maybe a little unattractive. Yeah.
Steve Palmer [:Maybe a man dressed like a woman.
Norm Murdock [:Oh, god. He didn't do that.
Steve Palmer [:I don't know. I don't know if he did or not. I think that I think that has happened.
Norm Murdock [:Well, RuPaul. But at at at any rate, society has started, I think, to self criticize along Belinda's point of of what is beauty, what is what is to be idolized. And I and I think the pressure girls in particular have been under to, be some kind of perfect, specimen is ridiculous. I think I think a girl's, human worth comes from the complete person, not what they look like. And and I think society has started to recognize Belinda's point that we need to recalibrate who we really look up to and why we look up to them.
Steve Palmer [:I don't think it's gonna be intentional. I don't think you can I I it is not an intentional choice? It is so people's interests maybe reflect who they look up to. So maybe you can do that at the educational levels. Yeah. Yeah. Look, I play classical guitar. I think Julian Bream is a he was one of my idols. Like, I think he was phenomenal, his musicianship, and that what he did for that instrument.
Steve Palmer [:And I would say 99% of people listening to this would never even know who that man is. But it reflected an interest I have.
Norm Murdock [:Well, look how twisted and how horribly disfigured Stephen Hawking was. Right? And he's certainly one of my heroes. Right? And it's because of the content of his mind was was unbelievable. I mean, he disproved one of Einstein's theories.
Steve Palmer [:So that reflects your interest. And your interest was influenced by your education by and large. And if we are not educating our people, our children, on anything significant Yeah. Whether it's the classics, whether it's the classic like, I was educated in a very traditional way, and I was educated at home in a very traditional way. I spent, weekends watching old movies Mhmm. Because that's what was on. Mhmm. And I I found that
Brett Johnson [:I found him fascinating still
Steve Palmer [:to this day, the black and white cinematographer. It's it's it's, you know, it's art. Yeah. And we don't have that now. So my interests were influenced by my education and upbringing perhaps.
Brett Johnson [:Yeah. Because a lot of examples you brought up are just there's no substance. Yeah. It's just absolutely not
Norm Murdock [:pop culture.
Steve Palmer [:Right. It's pop culture.
Brett Johnson [:And there's there's a place for it.
Steve Palmer [:There is.
Norm Murdock [:There is.
Steve Palmer [:So for
Brett Johnson [:sure. But not to that idle level.
Steve Palmer [:Maybe hit maybe maybe what's happened is pop culture has replaced other more legitimate idolization that was healthy in our society.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:It is it is it is tempted out.
Norm Murdock [:That's right.
Steve Palmer [:And I think that started with a failure in education. So anyway Damn. Alright. Belinda, thank you very much. Great great question. Check. Please feel free to, add some more. And and those who are listening, you know, now you know if you submit a a cool enough question, we'll discuss it right here in a separate episode at Common Sense Ohio, where each and every week we are coming at you right from the middle.
