Summary:

In this powerful and grounded episode, James sits down with longtime friend and fellow recovering alcoholic Marcus A. for a deep discussion about the spiritual maintenance required in long-term sobriety. With over a decade sober, Marcus shares reflections on character defects, spiritual alignment, and how our challenges often become our greatest teachers. They cover everything from prayer and meditation to relapse prevention, service work, and how to spot spiritual slippage before it escalates. The conversation is raw, relatable, and packed with spiritual insights.

Key Themes:

• The evolution from craving management to character defect management
• Practicing humility when spiritual pride creeps in
• Redefining prayer as reliance rather than requests
• Meditation as spiritual listening, not goal-oriented striving
• Recognizing spiritual laziness and the early signs of disconnection
• Reframing hardship as divine opportunity: a lesson as a blessing
• Navigating the long plateau of mid-sobriety (the "four-year wall")
• Self-sabotage, expectations, and the need for spiritual accountability

Notable Quotes:

• "Everything in life is either a blessing or a lesson. And sometimes the lesson is the blessing."
• "You always get an A when you grade your own paper."
• "Prayer evolved from belief to faith, to full reliance."
• "Alignment is the assignment."
• "If you have to justify it, it probably isn’t a good decision."
• "There is no growth in comfort and no comfort in growth."

Book Mentioned:

• Codependent No More by Melody Beattie

Closing Thought:

Sobriety is not just about abstaining from substances. It’s about continual surrender, staying present, and getting our will into alignment with God’s. Every moment is either an invitation to regress or a step toward deeper spiritual maturity.

Follow & Support:

Website: soberseekerpath.com

Instagram: @path.of.the.sober.seeker

TikTok: @the_sober_seeker

YouTube: Path of the Sober Seeker

Hello everyone.

Welcome to Path of the Sober Seeker.

My name is James.

I'm an alcoholic, and I'm gonna be your host for episode five.

We're gonna get started with Elham.

Ah.

Alright, everyone, thank you again for tuning in.

Um, I'd like to welcome our, our guest today is gonna be Marcus a

uh, Marcus, you wanna go ahead and, you know, give us a quick intro,

tell us a little bit about yourself.

Um, yes.

Um.

Marcus, once again, I'm, I'm an alcoholic.

Like yourself.

Um, in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Uh, if, if that's blowing my, uh, anonymity, right?

Um, I don't know.

I've been sober 10 years, um, grew up in the Cleveland area and, um.

I dunno.

I guess that's about it for now.

That's, that's really all we're gonna do.

Well, I asked, you know, we, we know each other from meetings obviously,

and I've always been impressed by your comments and just your

level of, uh, spiritual awareness.

Thank you.

You know, it's one of those things and it's just really, um, you know, I've

always really, you know, all of our conversations have always been real deep.

Like right away we dump, right.

We jump right into the deep A, which is, you know, amazing.

That's one of the reasons why I wanted to ask you on the show today.

Um, so the, uh, you know, we were talking the other day and

you made a comment in a meeting.

It was basically about, um, getting, talking about setting your will aside

and getting in alignment with, you know, God, uh, higher power with whatever,

you know, that sense of divinity that we deal with on a daily basis.

Um.

So what I wanted to talk about was how with, you know, dealing with recovery

and overcoming these different aspects of things where later on in the game, it's

not necessarily the, um, comp, you know, that that compulsion to use or to drink.

Right.

Uh, we get that bar that gets set a little bit higher, you know, where we are.

Um, it's no longer where we're struggling with our, you know, cravings.

We're more struggling with our character defects.

Yes.

Yes.

And how it's.

You know, for me personally, I, you know, my bar's way up here, so my slipup

isn't necessarily where I'm gonna be, you know, drinking my slipup is if I

am, you know, falling back into sarcasm or anger or all these other little

things that are gonna disrupt my day.

Yes.

You know, um, and it is, you know, it's possible to get that same degree

of unmanageability from, you know, different things, different, basically

different types of selfish behavior.

So, wanted to talk to you about was how, how do you say, stay spiritually aligned.

Uh, uh, I don't know why you use the word stay right?

Um, right.

No, it, it is, it is, it is constant practice.

You know, I, I, I do believe that my, um, higher power puts me in situations

constantly that lets me gauge myself, you know, to see where I truly stand.

Because in, in my head sometimes I, I think I'm here, you know, that

this higher up, you know, level and.

Uh, certain situations I'll go through and, and I don't necessarily deal with

them like, I think I should, you know, with this lifestyle that I'm living now.

And I have to look and I'll see, oh, okay, well, time to raise the bar a little bit.

You know, I'm, I'm not exactly where I thought I should be.

Um, and, and that's hit or miss usually, you know, it depends on the situation.

Um, sometimes I handle it good and I'll get in the exact same situation

later on and, and not handle it as well, you know, but it's.

It, it, it's a good way to honestly look at myself and,

and see where I truly stand.

Right.

I, I get that a lot too.

Like I think I'm up here and it's, uh, you know, what's a phrase?

You know, you always get an A when you grade your own paper.

Oh yeah.

And it's really, really easy to um, you know, fall into that sense

of, you know, hey, I'm doing okay.

Um, but I think that's why like meetings are important, especially like that

sense of, uh, sponsorship is too Yes.

Where you have someone who can be objective yet still hold you accountable.

Yes.

Um, you know, for thinking and whatnot.

'cause it's really, really easy with, you know, as alcoholics, uh, I can

think myself in and out of anything.

Oh, definitely.

You know, that level of.

You're right.

That level of justification is ridiculous.

Um, and it's really, really hard.

I used to, I had a home group years ago, and this guy would always tell

me, he'd be like, James, you know, you're exactly where you need to be.

'cause I'd come in and just spit out my early sobriety, verbal

diarrhea of like, you know, why X, Y, and Z isn't working out for me.

And he's like, dude, calm down.

Breathe.

Acceptance.

You know, acceptance is the answer.

Exactly.

You're exactly where you need to be.

I, I truly believe that.

Um, I mean, we, we always want more for ourselves, better for ourselves or

whatever, but yeah, I, I, I think that.

Sense of accepting that we are exactly where we're supposed to be.

It, it, it can be humbling, but at, but at the same time, you, you

can't let it make you stagnant.

You know?

'cause if, if this is where I'm supposed to be, why should I do more?

You know?

No, um, we always want more.

You always wanna strive for more.

Um, but I'm not gonna beat myself up because I'm not in a better place.

Right.

I can accept where I am.

Right.

It's easy to, uh, you know, it really is easy to fall into that sense of the poor

me, you know, if we allow ourselves that, uh, you know, the luxury of self pity.

Uh, I really like what you said about how we're always trying to, you know,

evolve and we do evolve spiritually.

I mean, that's one of the things about, you know, we, our

maintenance steps 10, 11, and 12, and especially 11, we're increasing

that conscious contact with God.

Yes.

Um, and so it is, you know, ideally we're always increasing.

We're trying to, um, you know.

Get ourselves to that, our states, to that, our hearts, to that state

of purity or that state of spiritual excellence where we are, you know,

it's no longer thinking, you know, we're living from our hearts.

Yes, yes.

Um, which is a fact.

This is a very Islamic concept.

It's one of those things that really comes across in aa where it

is, um, it, it's, uh, I look at.

You know, not only addiction, but that sense of like, selfishness.

'cause it talks about in the big book, like selfishness, self-centeredness

is the, the root of our, our issues.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but it's all a disease of the heart.

You know, do we have a selfish heart or is it a, you know, selfless heart.

Yes.

Are we focused on ourselves or focused on, um, you know, focused on God and

doing god's will and getting our, our will and alignment with God's will.

Um, so you, I know you've been sober for a hot minute, 10 years.

So let me ask you, how has your, um.

Relationship with prayer evolved over the case, you know, over the

course of a decade of sobriety.

Oh, wow.

Um, you know, at at the beginning it, it, I, I had to learn to not

necessarily, you know, pray, pray for things, um, you know, not, not

necessarily material things, but you know, um, that, that my life gets better.

Um, that.

You know, that I can handle or not have certain situations

fall into my life, you know?

Um, and, and that changed from not having those situations to giving me the

strength to go through these situations.

Um, you know, my, my, my, my, my relationship with my higher power,

it eventually wasn't like a, a belief that that moved to faith.

That eventually moved to a reliance, you know, um.

I, I, I truly rely on my higher power.

Now, I, I don't, I, I don't have like the, uh, the discipline of, you

know, praying every morning, praying every evening, stuff like that.

But, but I do pray throughout, throughout the day, you know, even if, if it's

just a simple thank you, you know?

Um, I, I guess I, I started to look at different little things as.

More than just coincidence.

You know, things are happening for reasons, uh, whether I understand

it or not, but to, to be at a place of, of gratitude and, and just to

say thank you for those situations.

And yeah, it's, it is, it is coming along and hopefully it'll evolve

into, I will get that discipline, you know, where I, you know, wake up and,

and be Thank you for a great day.

And, um, when, when I go to bed at night, you know, actually.

Being grateful that it was a great day.

That's, I can understand that.

It's, um, I, I love what you said about like, it sounds like you do it as an on

an as needed basis, you know, throughout the day, which is really, you know, that's

kind of what that idea of like conscious contact is where you are consciously aware

of when you need to, you know, tap out of the world and tap into your higher power.

Yeah.

It's, um, you know, this is one thing I do struggle in, uh, sometimes with in Islam,

is we are, you know, I have five, five.

Prayers a day.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's the discipline.

It's, well, it is, it is a discipline.

It's just really, uh, sometimes I wanna do it.

Other times I have to admit it feels like a chore, you know?

It really is.

And I'm like, really?

Um, but I have to remind myself that it's not necessarily that I have to pray.

It's that I get to Yes.

You know, that I'm in a position where, hey, you know, this is actually, you

know, so I have to, it really, I have to really realign my heart to it, uh, because

it's really, you know, like a, as a, um.

As an alcoholic, I like to, I've always been someone who like chases novelty.

You know, I've always wanted get that new experience.

Yes.

That new, you know, so when something cost me up, right?

So when like, when the novelty's gone and something just becomes

rote or it just becomes, you know, a prayer, uh, you like a rote prayer

or just it seems like a chore, then it's something I don't wanna do.

And that's something I've fallen into in the past with, um, like with meetings.

You know, this isn't my first iteration in sobriety.

I've had, you know, I've been in and other rooms for 25 years.

Wow.

You know, and it's really, um, you know, but I've, I had these, these cycles.

I'll get sober for like two, three years and then go back out again, two,

three years and go back out again.

And it's, now I'm in, now I'm finally, you know, on a decent, you know, decent

run, uh, with, this is actually my longest period of sobriety in my adult life.

So it's uncharted territory, you know, but it's really, yeah.

It, it, it really is important to, uh, you know, maintain that maintenance.

You know, and that's kind of what, you know, what it's about is

it's, we're guarantee the daily, you know, the daily reprieve Yes.

Contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual condition.

And part of that, it's laid out for us in the steps, prayer and meditation.

Um, so when I pray, it's really, uh, you know, I do it throughout the day.

Um, and also, you know, a lot more than that too.

I'm always, you know, saying little prayers, thankful,

you know, being thankful.

Attitude of gratitude.

Yes.

You know, um, well, let me ask you this, how.

Like when you deal with hard days, you know, and I, I remember you, you told

me a few weeks ago was when you, you said something about your, some days

you're either the bug or the windshield.

Yes.

That's, that stuck with me.

So when you're dealing with like a, you know, a bug day.

Yes.

How, how does that work for you?

What's your prayer?

Uh, prayer like?

Um, it, it depends on how hard the windshield is.

You know, when it, when it's a very hard day.

I, I ask for strength, you know, strength to help me make it through this, you know.

Um.

Keep, keep my mind right.

That that's, that's a big thing for me.

Um, my, my emotions, you know, 'cause I, I'll, I'll find myself going into old

behaviors and, and you know, by anger being my, my, my go-to emotion, I'll,

I'll, I'll get upset, you know, not necessarily ready to hurt somebody upset.

Well, not all the time, but occasionally I'll, I'll, I'll get that, that.

Anger, anger at the situation, anger at a person.

And, and I have to bypass that because that, it doesn't help, you know, it

doesn't benefit, benefit me at all.

So, um, yeah, and the thing is though, I can appreciate those bug days, you know,

because like I said earlier, it's, it's a chance for me to gauge myself and,

and that's where the growth comes in.

I heard someone say the other day, there's, um, like.

No, no comfort in growth in,

and then she reversed it, like, uh, no, no growth in comfort.

No growth in comfort, right?

Yes.

And I was like, wow.

That's, that's so true.

I, I, I need those, I need, I used to say I need the pain because

I'm, I'm hardheaded like that.

I, I, I need a difficult situation to, to force me into growing.

Right.

And.

Now I can appreciate those situations where before, you know, it was the why

me, why, why is this happening to me now?

It's, you know, thank you, you know, for giving me this another

chance to, to grow, right?

All ham Allah, as we say that, you know, al ham, Allah for the good and

al ham Allah for the bad, you know?

'cause it's really, uh, we are gonna be tested.

Um, but no, I love that.

I think about that too, like, especially when I'm dealing with real, real,

real bad, bad situation and it's, it contrasts with the good days.

You know, um, 'cause you wouldn't, you know, you wouldn't know.

Everything's about opposites, you know?

So we wouldn't know joy unless we've experienced sorrow.

Yes.

You wouldn't have like, light and darkness define each other.

Yes.

Um, so it's the same thing, like the good days are defined by the bad days.

You know, we wouldn't know joy unless we understood sorrow.

Mm-hmm.

So when we have those dark, you know, sorrowful days, it

makes us, you know, a lot more.

You know, a lot more appreciative.

Right?

Because it is, I mean, the thing is, is like we deal with life on life's terms.

We talk about that all the time.

You know, the life on life's terms.

And when we're in a situation where we can know, you know, we're living a sober

life, so we can't regulate our mood by, you know, smoking something or drinking

something, or snorting something to feel, you know, where we have to deal

with it, we have to go through it.

Right.

You know, uh, my sponsor always talks about the, uh, the sober as an acronym.

Son of a b, everything's real.

Yeah.

S-O-B-E-R, you know, everything's real.

And you're like, man, and it's really, uh, you know, it's hard 'cause we have

to, you know, thankfully we have the big book, we have meetings, we have that,

um, you know, the, the toolbox mm-hmm.

Of learning how to deal with things without regulating

our, you know, our state.

Um, it's just really, you know, some really, I'm the same way.

It's some really hard lessons to learn.

But, and, and that's for me, like that's the thing.

Um, I, I, I try to look at.

Everything in, in, in life for me now is either a blessing or a lesson and, and

sometimes the lesson is the blessing.

You know, I, I, I don't, I don't always want it, you know, the lesson

to be learned, but I, I go through the pain and, and I will continue to go

through the pain until I learned that lesson, and once I learned it, I, I

realized that that was the blessing.

That's, that's why I can appreciate those harder situations now.

Right.

You know.

It's, uh, it's, it's a beautiful, I mean, what a blessing, just to be

able to realize that, you know, oh, it's so easy to, like, I mean, it's

so easy just to backslide into it.

It's, um, you know, occasionally I still get these little, uh,

wake up calls where I, uh.

I was out driving with my wife the other day and we're just driving up Vine Street

and just, you know, there's all those biker bars thing and I'm just going in

and I looked in and one of the doors was open and I just glanced inside.

We're at the red light.

I look in and I see, I mean, this is at like two 30 in the afternoon, you

know, and there's this, everyone's in there and I could just feel

like the energy coming out there.

Yeah.

You know, and you know, if you go in there, the floor is gonna be sticky.

It's gonna smell like stale beard, you know that.

And it's just like that.

But it's a reminder.

That, that life is waiting for me.

Oh yeah.

You know, I used to love places like that.

Oh yeah.

I love, like, I, I loved it.

I, that was like my, I would be like, oh yeah, we gotta stop in.

And it's, I'm looking around and it's like, you know, a nice sunny afternoon.

And there was a time in my life where I, I would be like, oh, this is great.

You know, let's go grab a beer.

You know, it's a great, you know, great afternoon for it.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm just gonna sit in, you know, and that would be my, the

rest of my day, you know, of course I'm gonna drink to get drunk and.

Lose the whole day.

Like, and it's just like sense.

Awe.

So what, you know, when an older version of myself would be a very inviting

open door, let's do it to, I drove by, I was just like disgusted at it.

It was just like, I'm like, ah.

You know?

But I think to, you know, I think that, you know, there, but for

the grace of God go, I, yeah.

You know, because the grace of God has us sitting here and not on a bar stool.

Exactly.

Okay, so let's, um, you know, we, we talk about with the, uh, you know,

spiritual condition and the maintenance.

It's um, you know, with Step Alive and it's prayer and meditation.

So I wanna talk to you about meditation for a little bit too.

'cause this is something that isn't really, uh, covered in depth.

I. You know, we talk about prayer all the time.

There's a lot of things, um, with it, but meditation is not necessarily something

that we, you know, talk about regularly.

Um, right.

I understand that one of the, you were one of the founding

members of Misfits, correct?

Yes.

Okay.

And one of the thing, I know one of the draws for that, you guys do a regular,

you know, Monday meditation, right?

Yes.

Uh, can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Um, well, Nikki runs the meditation.

Um, I, I think that that was part of that, um.

That's step 11.

You know, because there's not a lot of, uh, meditation groups.

Um, a lot of people are not familiar with meditation, and that was, that

was her way of, of kind of introducing that to the, to the newer people.

Um, I like it.

I mean, it's, it is, she, she, she basically does a.

Just, uh, like the medi meditation type chants and, and

sounds and stuff that she does.

Excuse me.

But, um, well, let me ask this.

When, when did you start meditating In recovery?

In recovery?

Yeah.

Uh,

I, I don't know.

Um, I, I, I've, I've always done some form of meditation.

Um.

You know, growing up as a kid, I was in the martial arts.

Right.

Okay.

So that, that, that kind of brought that about, you know, a couple

friends of ours and we, we were like little ninjas in high school Nice.

And stuff like that.

Right.

You know, so we would have our little meditation circles and stuff like that.

Um, so I, I, I knew about a sense of peace, you know, that that

could be derived from meditation.

But what I didn't understand.

That like in the rooms we say that is our listening for God's answer, you know?

Right.

You know, we, we ask for our prayers, but we are answered through meditation.

Um, and, and, and that was, that was kind of difficult for me.

And then sometimes I still struggle with that.

Yeah.

I was, I was gonna ask you like, what do you do when you're meditating and

it feels like it's, uh, just a dry experience or it's pointless or like

you're not, you know, getting that, you know the answers that you're looking for.

Um.

I don't, I don't, I don't look for the answers.

Okay.

I, I, I, I truly believe they'll present themselves.

Um, I just have to be open to it, you know?

Right.

Get, get outta myself, get outta my head and, and just sit back

and, and, and quiet everything.

Quiet, quiet my head, you know, the voices out in the meeting this morning.

I was, I was saying that, you know, as far as, you know,

people say, well, I, I, I hear.

You know, the good voices.

I hear God talking to me and I, I, I've heard people say that they've heard like

maybe the devil talking to them, you know, talking about their addiction or whatever.

Right, right.

And I know for me, good and evil sounds the same in my head.

It sounds like me, you know?

Right.

So how do I dis discern which is witch, you know?

So, and I think that's where the getting outta my head and, and

quieting myself and, and actually.

Letting it go.

You know, we, we know good from evil.

We, we know right from wrong.

So basically we, we can cancel them out.

But, you know, being an alcoholic, I'm, I like you said, I can justify,

you know, so once, once I stop trying to justify behavior, if I have to

justify certain behaviors, I know it's not, that's not the good behavior.

If it's something good, it'll present itself and.

What I've, what I've experienced in sobriety that things kind of just fall

in line when I'm doing the right thing.

Great.

Alignment is the assignment.

Like just kid, that's, it's amazing how things will flow.

Oh my God.

When you get out of your own way, great word for it.

Flow, let's suffer.

That's exactly, you know, that's what it is.

It's flow.

It's that flow of just getting in the, um, you know, just

getting in the stream of things.

Yes.

Just let go and let God, um.

Because it's so easy to just disrupt that cycle.

Oh, yeah.

You know, how many times have we, uh, you know, I want to meddle with things.

That's really what it is.

Swim against the tide.

Right.

Well, I'm, I'm a meddler man.

I, um, and it's, it's, it's, it's little things.

I remember I was watching a, uh, uh, like one of those cooking shows,

one of the competitive cooking ones.

It was that, uh, oh, wow.

Who's the guy?

Bobby Flay.

You know, I, I love his personality on this thing, but he was talking

about Let the pan do its job.

That's something that's really stuck with me.

'cause when I cook I'm always wanting to like, you know, mess with it.

Mm-hmm.

But it's, that's such like a deep, such like a deep observation of let

the pan do its job because it's like, I, you know, if I'm cooking, let

the pan just do what it needs to do.

Exactly.

But sometimes you just gotta let situations do it too, dude.

They do.

Exactly.

I gotta do hands off and step out of my own way, uh, because it's so, so easy to

step in and meddle and then it take, you know, take a, um, you know, what would be

a simple solution or a simple situation and complicate the heck outta it.

Yeah.

Prolong it, all of that.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I've always been someone who like over, you know, over complicates things.

You know, like if you ask me what time it is, I'm gonna tell you how

to build a clock instead of Right.

So it's like one of those I, I gotta step aside and not overanalyze, you

know, because we talk about that all, you know, the analysis paralysis, right.

That's the thing where it's like, I don't want to see, um, you know, it comes

to a a point where I literally don't.

You know, wanna make a decision.

Yeah.

Um, and, and you're right, it's about, uh, is it love, is it a loving

decision or is it a selfish one?

You know, and I talk, you talk about this in my book, where it's,

is this decision gonna be, am I serving, aah, am I serving God?

Mm-hmm.

Or am I serving myself?

Mm-hmm.

Um, my sponsor's always on me about that analogy of the

black dog and the white dog.

You know, have you heard familiar?

You've heard this.

Okay, so he said, inside of everyone is, there's two, there's two dogs.

You have a black dog and a white dog.

And the black dog represents like your addiction, your selfish nature.

You know the thing that's gonna serve your lower desires and the

white dog is your higher desires.

You know, your self less nature.

What's gonna serve G, what's gonna serve love?

And the one that has, uh, the one that is stronger is whichever one

you feed, you feed the most, right?

Yes.

So if you're feeding your, um, lower desires, that's the one

that's gonna take precedence over the white, you know, the white dog.

So if you stay, you know, if you're feeding your higher desires,

it's gonna, you know, it's gonna reflect in your, in everything.

It reflects in your attitude, your outlook, your perceptions, your actions.

Yes.

Um, so it's really, really important to make sure that you're feeding

the, you know, feeding the right dog.

And I think we get that in sobriety too, you know, and that's.

For me, that's the part, part of sobriety.

You know, right after, you know, we put the bottle down and everything or whatever

condition we dealing with, you know, that choosing to make better decisions

and eventually the those decisions that we are trying to make, they, they become

habit and, and you, that's, this is how, this is where the growth comes in.

You know, we become the better people because we are making better

decisions, more positive type decisions.

Right.

And in, in their lifestyle.

Well, positive decisions lead to better, you know, positive outcomes.

It's, you know, we hope our, our decision making, like the best decision

I ever made was to put the bottle down.

Yes.

You know, it's the, it's the first one that comes in and it's one of

those, um, things that I think in, you know, in recovery we get it.

You know, like I, uh.

I, I dunno what you call people who aren't the radar, or some people call

them earth people, you know, muggles, normies, whatever you want to call it.

But they look at that, they look at step one, they're like, oh, powerless.

Well, I'm not powerless over anything.

It's, it's of powerlessness and they're trying to take away your,

you know, your identity or your sense of being able to, you know,

do anything 'cause you're powerless.

And it's not, it's not a, like I recognize I'm powerless over alcohol

if I pick up that first drink.

Yes.

Right.

It's that phenomenon of craving.

I'm not gonna be able to stop, but since I know that I'm powerless over

alcohol, that gives me the power to make the decision to not pick it up.

Right.

Exactly.

Right.

Like you don't, we we and we are empowered to make better decisions.

Yeah.

Um, but it starts right there.

Okay.

So when you, you know, when we fall into like.

Uh, you know, that selfishness, I've always been told that it's like if I'm

ever, you know, feeling bad for myself to go do something for someone else.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, service is a massive, massive component of, you know,

sobriety and doing, you know, we gotta give it away to keep it, so to speak.

Um, so when it comes to that sense of like, uh, you know, service is like, it

disrupts the ego, disrupts that sense of like, you know, selfish thinking.

Um, what do you like, how, how do you do that?

Like, what, what is service to you?

Like just beyond the basics of.

Love it.

Like what, what I mean besides, I mean the basics of like, you

know, sweeping up after a meeting, putting away chairs and whatnot.

Yeah.

What does service look like to you when you're outside, you know, out in the

real world, like outside of the rooms and away from, um, just doing something

that benefits somebody else and not me.

Um, and, and, and, you know, some, it depends on the situation because, um,

I can struggle with that sometimes too.

Um, I'll, I'll do something for someone, not necessarily for something in return.

Yeah.

But just so they know I did it for them, you know?

Right, right.

Okay.

Yeah.

But, but, but then, but that's selfish.

Right.

Do the right thing for the wrong reasons.

Exactly.

I got it.

Yeah.

It's, that's a common Exactly.

I, I have to do it without anything happening for me.

Oh.

But, but at the same time, that, that's, that, that's, again, I'm struggling

because something is happening for me.

I'm, I'm, I'm getting a good feeling out of doing something for somebody else.

Right.

So.

Is it selfish?

Is, well, that's the thing you have to ask it.

Is it like, who are you serving in that moment?

Are you serving yourself or serving God?

You know, serving your higher power.

It's, you know, I see that all the time.

Like, I see these guys on social media, they'll be doing, like, they'll feed

homeless people, but they're taking, you know, I guess their ego's hungry too.

You're filming it, right?

Right.

Yeah.

Filming it and it's like, it's, it's such a, uh, it, it's like, and I get it.

I do.

'cause people like to be, you know, they like to get the attaboys, you know?

Yeah.

Um.

But you know, we have the, if you do something nice for someone and, and if

you speak on it, it doesn't count, right?

So it's so you have to do something else, right?

You gotta do it.

Um, it's one of the, I was reading this, um, what was, I was some, uh,

what was it?

It was some, anyway, the ba the basic thing was, it was, uh, if you do a

good deed, it's like taking a coin and throwing it into a, well, it's gone.

Yes.

You know, you don't talk about it, you don't see it anymore.

It's God's the only one who sees it is God.

Right.

And that's what's, you know, sort what's really important is that we're doing

things to, uh, you, you know, we're doing things to serve, you know, serve God.

Yes.

And that's one of the things is we're not, you know, obviously as humans, we're

incapable of doing divine will, but we are capable of getting our will in alignment.

Yes.

You know, with God, that's why we always talk about alignment

is the assignment, right.

So we want to, we wanna do that.

And a part of that is at service.

Um.

Uh, but it's, you know, I found that it's, it, it sometimes just

doing like little things can change the whole course of a day.

Okay.

You know, um, I ran into this when I was on the road a lot.

Like, I'd be trucking and just being like, really, you know, they

having, being just worn down, you know, I'd be out for a few days and

just like, not a whole lot of sleep.

I'm dealing with a lot of traffic.

You know, all, all these things get really, really worn down.

And then it's, I, I, I had this one, it was like a construction zone.

I'm slowing down.

There's this pickup truck trying to get in.

And I'm usually not, I am not a big fan of pick.

It's always pickup trucks that are trying to do, you know, and it's always,

it's always pickup trucks and it's not.

So finally I'm like, all right, well there, you know, I can

see where the traffic is.

So I slow down and let him in.

And there's this little kid in the back, okay.

And he's like in the thing, he turns and looks out the little

flat window and starts pumping his, you know, pumping his thing.

So I'm like laying on my air horn, and he's like, you gave him the biggest smile.

And just that little thing turned around my whole day.

I'm like, oh, this is awesome.

You know, this is awesome.

'cause it was really, and it's just that little, little thing of being

able to do, you know, I let them in and then I got the little reward Yes.

Of, you know, ma and making this kid's day made my day.

Yes.

It was really, really fantastic.

Um, and, and that's the thing with service.

It, it doesn't have to be something grand.

It, it could be something small, like you said.

Just, just, you know, letting that truck in.

Right.

And, and then you got the reward for it and not even looking for the

reward, it's just happens something that, you know, just happens.

Oh, right.

Well, the, the prophet piece be upon him, um, would say that the best of people are

those who are most beneficial to others.

So we are, you know, as you know, as a Muslim, I am.

Yeah.

I, I don't wanna say compelled.

It's just, uh, you know, living for other people and being of benefit to

other people, whether it's li little, you know, little big whatever, no

matter what it is, as long as we're of service to the world around us.

Yeah.

But yeah.

Uh.

Not compel, like you said, but Right.

It it's your duty though, right?

It is.

It is a divine duty.

It's a divine duty.

Yeah.

I mean, we're required, I mean, it's not necessarily we're required to do it.

'cause obviously we're, you know, we're here, we're tested and we're gonna live

for ourselves or live for God, but being able to be of service and help people out.

Um, you know, and we see it all the time in the rooms where they're like, okay,

you know, their sponsorship or giving people rides to meetings or even just like

hanging out and talking to someone and listening too is a real, real big one.

Oh yeah.

Um, I've noticed that's one of the easiest ones.

'cause especially people in early sobriety, they want someone to listen

to 'em and it's, you know, sit there and just, they'll go on and on and on and I'm

like, okay, you know, let's get it out.

You know, it's, it is important, you know, it isn't, it is.

I don't think it's easy for all of us.

Some people like to talk, they don't like to listen as much.

That's true.

That's I, I like, well, it, it's, you know, it see, that's a blessing

in itself to, to be able to listen.

Absolutely.

I. Absolutely.

There is a, um, yeah, I see, I see that at meetings sometimes, like the never

ending comments, so I don't, I don't generally go to leads just because of

that, you know, and it's really, I, I've been some of 'em where it's like, you,

you feel like you're being held hostage.

Oh, oh, yeah.

You know, it's, it'll say the meeting book, that the meeting's an hour long.

Okay.

So if it's like, you know, after a 45 minute lead, and then they're.

They're, it's, the comments start and I'm like, uh, getting a little

an, you know, and you look around and people are shifting in their

seats and no one's comfortable.

Some people are getting up and leaving.

It's like, read the room, man.

But they do a, uh, but you know, but people do have, you know,

they do like to hear their own voice or they have a lot to say.

Yeah.

You know, they do, they do have a lot to say, which is pretty good.

Even with that, you know, I, I try to look at it like, maybe someone

needs to hear what he's saying, you know, not necessarily me, but somebody

might, you know, need to hear that.

So, and, and I. Get outta myself.

You know, I, I try to put a poker face on, you know, because I, I don't really

have one, and my face will tell me, dude, you're not comfortable with this.

Yes.

But, yeah.

That's, that's amazing.

Okay.

Well, what, um, well, let me ask you this.

Okay.

What, when you, you know, you've been around in the rooms for a little bit.

Mm-hmm.

Um, what, what does it look like when you are starting to slip spiritually?

Like what are some warning signs that you, you notice in your own behavior?

Oh, man.

Irritable, right?

Restless.

Um, I ain't even gonna go through the irr, restless discontent, but,

um, I started isolating, you know, um, not going to as many meetings,

um, spending more time at, at home.

I get, I get lazy, uh, not necessarily just in the program, just in life,

you know, um, won't clean up my house.

Um, just different things.

Um, I, I, I lose.

The desire to do about anything, you know, it's, it is like being in,

in a bout of depression, you know?

Um,

I, I, I just, I, I lack motivation for, for almost anything.

Even like, uh, things that I need to sustain.

Like I, I won't eat.

Um.

Uh, I won't walk my dog, you know, stuff like that.

Or, or we'll take shorter walks 'cause I have to walk him.

Right.

But yeah, I, I, I know when it's coming.

Um, and I've been blessed to have a good support group and I, and I have

some people that are calling me on it.

Hey, dude, um, you, you okay?

Right?

Yeah, I'm okay.

They be like, nah, are you really?

Okay?

And I, and I hate when they keep asking me, am I okay.

Yeah.

But then if they elaborate, Hey, well you're not doing this like you usually do.

Or you know, you look like this now rather than, you know,

different little things, you know?

Right.

And that's beneficial for me because I have to, I have to listen.

I consider the source, but still I have to listen.

When they say I'm fine.

You're like, yes.

Was that fed up, insecure, neurotic, and emotional?

Yes.

You know, we're fine.

And what's the other one?

If someone says they're fine, it means finally I need everyone.

Uhuh.

So I haven't heard that.

It's really, oh, that's, that was, uh, l uh, miss Loretta

used to say that all the time.

Um, finally, I need she rest in peace.

She was, she was quite a lady, but that was her, you know,

finally I need everyone, which is, you know, when you do that.

But it's really, you know, that's, it's kind of, uh, another aspect

of getting your ego outta the way where you need to ask for help and.

You don't really get to that.

'cause that's one of the things too, is we have a, um, you know,

we have to admit a strong degree of vulnerability even to be able to sit

in a, in a meeting in the first place.

Definitely.

You know, that step one is really, you know, your, your unmanageability

is, you know, extreme vulnerability.

You gotta put your ego to rest.

Who's this lady?

Um, I think it's Brene Brown or one of them, but she, she was talking about,

she had a little Ted Talks one time about the, the strength of, of being vulnerable.

You know, and Elvis, one of those, what, oxymorons or whatever, right?

You know, that.

It, it takes a lot, especially men, you know, we, we grew up, you know,

you, you handle the situation.

Oh, right.

Don't, you don't ask for help and, and this, that, and the other, but to, to,

to muster up that strength, to ask for help, you know, that's being vulnerable.

But at the same time, that's, that's empowering.

And when you, when you realize that, you know, you do have certain people

in your life that are willing to help you and they, and you allow

them to, that's a blessing for them to allow that person to help you.

You know, so I'm, I'm.

I'm getting something out of it, but I'm also giving something because I'm,

I'm giving you a chance to receive blessings too by helping me, right?

Yeah.

It's, um, I think Asana, Alexander, and the, um, awakenings

Academy talks about that though.

What, what do you say?

Like, uh, there to be in invulnerable, there's invulnerability in vulnerability.

Okay.

So it's like you're invulnerability in vulnerability.

Vulnerability.

So if you're vulnerable, you're invulnerable.

So it's like really, it's like kind of that play on words a little bit, but

it talks about that when we, um, you know, when we let go and we let God, I

surrender my ego and I'll allow a lot to step in, allow my higher power to step in.

And that's like a real, you know.

Suddenly everything doesn't seem so hard.

You know what's the thing is you don't tell, you don't tell

God how big your problems are.

You tell your God how big, you know, tell your problems.

How big your God is.

How big your God is.

Exactly.

So it's really, you know, it can set out.

So when, um, so when you find yourself in that sense of like laziness or

you know, slipping a little bit, you feel the wheels coming off.

Mm-hmm.

Um, is that how you do get reconnect?

You rely on your support network to call you out on it?

Or what do you do when you're like feeling spiritually flat or like blocked?

I, I, that's when I have to push myself some, sometimes it takes someone else,

you know, to, to motivate me, you know, come up with something for me to do.

Um, and, and, and at times I, I found myself fighting it, you

know, oh, I don't want to do that.

I don't, I don't feel up to it, but when I drop my will, you

know, it'd be like, well, okay.

And, and, and.

And make it so bad.

I've, I've had so many situations in my past that shows me when I get outta myself

and I do this, it's gonna benefit me.

It's gonna pull me outta that rut.

But yet, and still in that moment, I still kind of resist.

Right.

You know, I, I don't, I don't want, I don't want I water, but, but then

when I, when I do it, I get that, you know, uh, back centered, you

know, back to that, that, that.

Sense of peace or, or even joy at times, you know, because I, I, I end

up doing something for somebody else and, and it, I, I feel good about it.

Alright.

Well let me ask, speaking of doing stuff for someone else, let's say you're

at a meeting and someone comes up to, to you and they're like, mark Marcus.

I'm feeling, you know, really spiritually disconnected, I'm feeling down.

What advice would you offer them?

Um.

More than just pray, you know?

'cause the, the, the initial answer with us is, you know,

you need to pray on it, right?

And, uh, um, find something to get reconnected, um, with your spirituality.

Uh, like, like me, I, a lot of us, we, we like nature, you

know, take, take that walk, go to the woods, you know, go, right.

Um, I, I like to be around water.

Water is my thing.

Um.

I'll ask them what makes them feel good, what, what makes them feel that

they're in touch with their higher power?

And, and do that, you know, if it's, if it's just praying, pray, you know, but

if it's, if it's something that maybe has something to do with Nature, earth,

others, you know, do that and, and, and see how, how that makes you feel.

Continue to do that.

It's, uh, yeah, I think that's, I think that's important.

Especially like, if at least something like that would happen at a meeting too.

I mean, the people that really need that message are the ones that, you know,

like you sat there at home, sitting in a filthy house, not, you know, not

getting out, not going to meetings.

Right.

And what do we say meeting makers make it.

You know, um, I, and I've fallen into that, uh, I've fallen into that same

sense of, uh, I, I don't wanna say despair or laziness, just like a rut.

Yeah.

Um, and that's happened especially like as I've gotten more sober, like

I, you know, my early, early sobriety.

Literally, the only thing I had going on in my life was sobriety.

You know, I wasn't working.

I, it was easy for me to do 99, 90, you thrusted everything into that, right?

Um, and then, as you know, and this is, this led to my first relapse years

ago, was I, you know, it was like 15 years ago, I had a relapse where

I was going to meetings regularly.

Um, and then it slowly started tapering off.

Like I started, uh, you know, I, I got a job, which was really good, you

know, something to be thankful for.

But it still cut it in my meeting time.

Right.

Um, shortly after that I enrolled in college and that was another one that

took a big, big chunk of my time.

So what started as seven meetings a week?

You know, one a day, slowed down to three meetings a week

pretty quick to one a week.

I'm just gonna my home group every week.

Right.

And then every other week.

And then pretty soon I was, you know, disconnected from all of that.

Uh, 'cause I was all, and I was starting to get a lot more wordly, you know?

Um mm-hmm.

You know, success in things.

And it was, I, it changed my association.

Suddenly.

I wasn't hanging out with sober people, sober places, sober things.

I was involved with other, you know, other stuff.

And before I know it, you know, I'm like, it, it loses its priority.

Exactly.

Right.

Yeah.

Um, and it's, it's amazing like with, uh, you know, with a relapse, how quickly

all that stuff that you gain is gone.

Yeah.

How quickly you just give it all back again.

Yeah.

And it's just, and that's why you, you have to keep in mind.

Those things that you get, how did you get 'em right?

You know, because before we were sober Yeah, you, when we, when we weren't

sober, we, we got some things, but there was a price to pay for those things.

And then once we got sober,

things just started.

I know with me when I, once I put the bottle down, um, my life started changing.

I mean, I, I wasn't going through the steps yet.

I wasn't, I didn't have a sponsor.

But small things in my life was getting better, you know, my relationship with

my daughter, um, even financial things, you know, I, I wasn't blowing money,

getting drunk and high all the time, so I, I had a little bit more money,

um, ended up getting a job because I can pass a, a urinalysis now, you know?

Right.

That's, that's a big one.

That was big.

Right.

You know, and so, I don't know.

Yeah.

I dunno.

That's that once again, that's that flow.

You know, when, when I started

on a, on a path that was more toward God, my higher power and, and, and

others and, and, and not myself, things just kind of fell in line for, for me.

It's, I, I can, uh, 100% appreciate that it's, um, you know, when things

fallen in the line, it's, you know, you have to kind of take a step back

and realize that, holy crap, you know, God's real, you know, lot's are real.

Right.

It's, it's wild to have that spiritual awakening, which is,

you know, the point of the steps.

Exactly.

Um, it's the same time we still have our disease.

You know, we talk about how our disease is out there in the parking lot doing

pushups while we're in a meeting.

You know, so it's still there and it's very, very easy for that,

uh, you know, the fud to take over the fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

Um, I am a master of self-sabotage.

Oh my.

Like when things are going too well, I, I mistrust it.

Yeah.

It's so, and it's such a terrible character defect and it's something

I've struggled to let go of is that sense of self-sabotage.

And I think it's because I. Expect to fail.

So like if I, um, you know, and I have that in my mind that this is

gonna be, the outcome is failure.

But if I can, uh, self-sabotage myself, then I can control the outcome.

Mm-hmm.

Instead of letting, you know, letting go.

Um, and this is something I was talking to my sponsor about 'cause he's always

on me about, he's like, James, I know you believe, what words your faith?

And I'm like, man.

Yeah.

Because it's one of those things that really, uh, especially with my like

health stuff recently, like I really have to step out and really rely on,

you know, rely on God in ways that I've never, you know, never really had to.

Um, which is wild because it's really, you know, we do get tested.

Mm-hmm.

And especially in sobriety.

We do.

And, uh, what blows me away about it is through this whole thing.

The thought of drinking or smoking has never crossed my mind.

Yeah.

You know?

Um, but at the same time it is still really challenging.

Yeah.

With my.

Selfs, I believe it's more of a, a fear of more responsibility.

Right.

You know, because if, if, if I'm advancing, I'm, I'm, I'm required to

do more and, and, and, and, and not just for me, and not just for what

I'm advancing for, but for others too.

So it is, it is, it is like a more responsibility.

And, and, and I, I kind of shun that at times, but I have to realize that

once again, that's the blessing.

Right.

'cause before I, I wasn't trusted, you know, I wasn't reliable, I wasn't all

these things that, that I can choose to become and, and have that responsibility

to people wanting more from me.

Um, yeah.

So I mean, it's my mind, like I say, I got that.

I call it mine.

I'm, I, I ize or rationalize it, then I overthink and, you know,

rather than just get out the way and, and let what happens happen.

We, we trade the isms for the ables.

You know, we had that ism, alcoholism, whatever, and it was,

uh, what do they say ISM is, uh, I self, for me, opposite for me, yes.

Yeah.

The ism.

But then that, you know, we wanna be like responsible, reliable, dependable,

you know, all those ables, ables and stuff that we used to shun before.

And I'm able to do this like right.

Able, you know, and what a blessing to be able to do that, you know,

to be able to be, um, you know, be someone who can, you can count on.

Yeah.

You know, it's really, uh, it's kind of uncharted territory a little bit.

Oh, definitely.

Right.

Um, but it is, we do have that sense of responsibility and I agree that

with, um, you know, the more we show God that we are responsible, the

more he gives us to be responsible.

Oh, for, yeah.

Um, and it's one of those things where we, um.

You know, we realize that it's not us.

'cause it's really, really easy to fall into that sense of awe, you

know, with the responsibility thing.

It's really easy for that to feed into the ego.

Definitely.

You know, you see that like, oh well I'm capable of shouldering this

amazing burden of responsibility.

Look at me, you know, look at, I'm doing exactly right.

Uh, but we realize that it's not, it's another one of those paradoxes where it's

not us doing it, it's God is carried it.

God's doing it through us.

Right, exactly.

You know, using us to, um, you know, us to carry, carry it forward, which is

really, you know, again, what a blessing.

Yeah.

You know, they lead, they lead to more and more of them.

So when, uh, what else did I wanna talk to you about?

Okay, so like the, uh, you know, we kind of touched on it a little bit with, uh,

seeing that sense of like laziness or that sense of like untreated alcoholism.

Mm-hmm.

Um, where it shows up long before an actual relapse, you know, where

it's, you know, we start to make these real, real, um, small, uh.

Uh, you know, we just, we let things slip, you know, letting prayer slip, meditation

meetings, you know, that's a big one too.

Mm-hmm.

Is it, uh, you know, and that's why it's so important to be held responsible

with, through things like a home group or different, you know, different

things where we are held accountable.

Um, but it's so important to realize that that is a symptom

of the untreated alcoholism.

Yes.

Because every day we wake up with it, you know, we, it is untreated.

Yeah.

Contingent on the day, you know, maintenance of our spiritual condition

have to do something every day.

Right, exactly.

So it's really, really important to be able to, you know, maintain it and

realize that it's happening at the time.

Um, and that's the thing to be able to realize and be

aware of, of what's going on.

'cause um, that's just like slips, you know, when people

say, they, they, they slipped up.

I didn't, I didn't see it coming.

Somebody saw it coming.

Know, even if it wasn't you, the people around you, somebody saw

it coming with your behavior.

Right.

Um, or, and I don't see how you not don't be aware of it anyway,

you know, be, because the, the, the sobriety lose its priority and,

and different things that we do.

It, it shows that it's, it is old behavior, you know?

I know, at least for me, it, um.

If, if I was to ever mess up, it wouldn't be a slip.

I wouldn't call it a slip.

I would call it a conscious decision to go out there and do again.

Because that's what it would be.

That's exactly what it is.

I mean, every one of us is going to meet that test, where some days it's just

gonna come down to you a bottle in God.

Mm-hmm.

You know, your support network's not there.

Your sponsor's not there.

Your family's not there.

It's just you in that quiet moment and you have a choice.

Right.

And in that moment, do you wanna stay sober more than you want to use?

Exactly.

Um, and I have, uh, you know, and I'm not.

Necessarily ashamed to admit it, but I, I failed in that moment.

A few, a couple different times.

Mm-hmm.

You know, not, and it's just really, uh, you know, and those

are really hard lessons to learn.

Yeah.

You know, when you get, you gain all these things through sobriety

and then give it all back again.

Um, but again, I'm not like, personally, I don't.

You know, we, we don't regret the password.

Shut the door on it.

Right.

And it's, it's good to experience those things 'cause then you

can help other people e Exactly.

Right.

It's one of those, uh, what do we talk about The, no, no matter how far

down the scale you fall on, how your experience can benefit, can benefit

others, you know, benefit of other people.

But I, I've seen it happen time and time again and it's so, it's wild how.

That justification happens like, oh, I don't feel like

going to a meeting tonight.

I have to work in the morning.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and I don't think about mm-hmm.

Play the tape through that.

Okay.

The only reason I have the job to go to work in the morning in the

first place is because I'm sober.

I'm sober.

Right.

Exactly.

Um, and that's one where I, I ran into a, uh, kind of a

dry spell a couple years ago.

Um, and it's, I don't know if this is, and let me ask you this, 'cause

you've been sober for 10 years.

Okay.

Um, is it, I'm, I'm noticing it's like a four year wall.

I've talked to a few people who have this, who've run into this

four year wall, and I don't see it brought up at meetings a whole lot.

'cause most meetings are catered more towards the newest person in the room.

Yeah.

Um, and I've never really, uh, but, but I've heard it in other comments

of people who have, you know, they get over that four year hump.

Mm-hmm.

Um, 'cause I ran into one, like about a year, about, yeah,

it was about 18 months ago.

I ran into a bad, you know, bad situation where I got real, real

thirsty and it was such a unique, uh.

It, it, it was very unique.

'cause I hadn't, you know, at that point in my sobriety, I wasn't, uh,

you know, drinking wasn't an option.

But at the same time I was like, man, you know, I could really, you

know, I got real, real thirsty.

Mm-hmm.

So have you experienced that the, the four year, four year hump?

Um, yeah.

I, I don't, four, five.

Yeah.

It happens every so often.

Yeah.

Right.

Um, like, like you said, it, it, uh, sobriety kinda.

Loses that novelty is, is not new anymore.

Right.

So it's, it's, it, it's, it's not a chore, but it is, it is more of

just a, a, a normal habit more, you know, just a part of just what we do.

And, you know, for me, my, my brain plays tricks on me too.

Um, I, I don't know the, the science behind it as, as far as like, um.

Okay.

Dopamine releases and, and, and stuff like, and receptor cells and stuff.

But e every once in a while it, it'll have that, you know, it, it wants to fire off

and, and it, and it calls you and I, and I think that's my disease, telling me,

Hey man, you know, I'm missing something here that I haven't had in a while.

And, and once again, I, I have to choose.

Sobriety over that urge, which, which one do I want the most?

Right.

Um, it's, it, it, it's gonna happen, you know, um, I, I, I, I, I don't put a

time limit on it, you know, four years.

Um, but usually by four years, you know, you, you've repaired

a lot of re old relationships.

You know, you got, you know, you, you're sober.

You, you can get that.

I got this, you know, mentality.

I got this, I don't have to worry, you know, I know what signs to look out for.

You know, all these things in our head we justify, but resting on our laurels, man.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And.

Dude, I, you let your guard down.

I had that last, so my sobriety date is New Year's Day.

And um, I had, I just had five years this past, you know, new Year's and I,

I was talking to my sponsor about it.

He goes, well, you know, you got five years.

He goes, I'm not gonna congratulate you.

'cause now your, your apprenticeship is over.

Now you can actually get to work.

And I'm like, just very humbling.

'cause you realize like, fi it tell, 'cause all we have is today.

Right.

You know, and it really, it's so easy to fall into that, um, you know,

'cause it, it kind of feeds the ego.

You know, and you see it like, oh, I've been sober for X amount of time, but it's

not, you know, we're not guaranteed that.

Yeah, right.

But I mean, okay.

I, I struggle with that too, as far as, um, you know, once you've reached that

point where you've had, like, the most time sober you've ever had in your life,

you know, I, I appreciate that time.

I, I cherish that time.

But, you know, we do have those people that say, well, you know, it don't.

It only even matters.

It's 24 hours.

Yeah.

But for, for me, this was an accomplishment.

And, and, and I take that accomplishment and I cherish it.

You know, like for me now, you know, after, after about.

Three years and, and even that at, at, at three years of sobriety.

That was the most sobriety I've had in my life, you know, as a, as a baby, I used

to sip and, and stuff like that, right?

So when I, when I actually had three years sober, I was like, you know, I've, I've

never had three years sober in my life.

Like, honestly, never.

So after that, it was, it was every day for me.

It's, it's a new world record.

It's a new world record.

It's a new world record.

And, and, and, and, and I cherish that.

And, and I keep.

I keep that, you know, I, I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, stop my record,

make it easy to, to catch up again.

I wanna set the bar so high for myself at this moment while I still can.

'cause I'm not, I'm not guaranteed tomorrow, you know, so I, I don't

know if I'm gonna get a chance to break this record again once I stop.

Right.

So I, I, I'm gonna keep setting this bar as high as I can right now.

Oh, that's beautiful.

And it's so important to stay present.

You know, that's another thing is it has to be.

You know, set the bar right now.

Yeah.

And yeah.

Where and who you are today is, you know, it, it is a, you

know, we are, you know, right.

This is my chance to, to be who I need to be.

You know?

Right now the culmination of everything you've experienced.

Yes.

You know, isn't that in the present moment, which is important.

You know, we're really, you know, I think presence is something that we

really, it's another gift that we get.

From, you know, from sobriety.

Yes.

Because so many times I wasn't present for my kids, wasn't present

for my wife, wasn't present anywhere.

Um, you know, not even present for myself.

No.

You know, 'cause I would do anything I could to get me outta myself.

Exactly.

And it's really, um, you know, so then having that sense of

presence is very, very important.

With it.

So it's really, you know, it's one of those things where it's really, uh, it's

part of that spiritual maintenance mm-hmm.

Is doing, and I think that's, that kind of ties it back into meditation

where we are, you know, present in the moment and try to shut the brain off

and focus on our breathing and just be in the, you know, shut everything down

and be in the moment, in the moment.

And, and that, that's crazy.

'cause like sometimes with the meditation, you know, you, you, you, especially when

I was first starting off, you know, um.

Different ways to actually shut everything off and not have a thought

and stuff at the moment, in the moment that you realize you are not

thinking, you're thinking, you know?

Right.

So, so I gotta do this again.

And, and, and, and, and, you know, eventually you get to a point where you

don't, you, you try not to be aware of it.

You know?

It is, it is.

It's just, you know, let it happen.

Don't, don't, don't think about it when it does happen, just, you know,

be in that moment that I'm there.

Right.

You know, it's so, it is easy to, um, you know, I've, I've done

that like meditating before where I'll like drift in and out of it.

Where if I'm not, you know, paying attention to my thoughts, I'll get like

this, this feeling of like serenity.

Yes.

Um, and then as soon as I notice that I'm in that moment of serenity, like it.

It's gone.

Like, you rock the boat, it's gone.

You know, it's like it's gone and it's really, and I'm trying

too hard to get that back.

Yes.

You know, and it's really, um, I guess that's an exercise and

really letting go, you know?

'cause if I can let go of my awareness and I get that, that sense

of, you know, that calm mm-hmm.

And then as soon as I, you know, if I pay attention.

Yeah.

As soon as you got it, you lose it.

You know, it's like, um, it's like holding sand.

You know, the, the tighter you squeeze it in your hand, the faster

it runs away between your fingers.

Right.

So it's something you can't, you just have to let happen.

It's, uh, it's wild though.

I've always struggled with, um, I've always struggled with that type of

thing of, uh, you know, calming down.

I mean, 'cause you know me, I'm a pretty high strung dude.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and it's very, very difficult for me sometimes to just calm down and chill out.

Um, I think that's one of the reasons why my wife and I get along so well.

I, I don't dunno if you've met, she's very calm and.

You know.

Okay.

Pretty well.

We have pretty much opposite personalities, you know, I'm very, yeah.

You know, I'm very extroverted and she's not, you know, she's

just, she's like, no, thank you.

Right.

I know it's, well, we, we compliment each other very, very well in

that That's good in that regard.

Um, but she's, uh, she's very, very good at talking.

We don 'cause I get, i'll, I'll get really worked up.

Um, and especially like my, uh, you know, my alcoholic thinking will take over and

anything that happens, I'll immediately start playing out the worst case scenario.

Mm-hmm.

In my mind, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And it's not.

It's, and that it's based in fear.

That's one of the things I've had to face in my recovery.

'cause it's, what's the fear of the acronym is, you know,

false evidence appearing real.

Yes.

And it, it's really, you know, I'll get this fearful idea of

how a situation's gonna play out.

Mm-hmm.

And I'll play that out in my mind of just this, this total horror

story of how everything's gonna, you know, the end of the world.

And it's really not that big of a deal.

Right.

And, and I think that's where that, the, the.

The support comes in the sober support.

Right.

Or not even if that person's not sober, but somebody that, that

knows you and can call you on that.

Um, I, I, I truly believe that.

Well, me, a sick mind can't fix a sick mind, you know?

Right.

So, so when I'm in a bad place, I don't see the solution.

I just see the bad place, and that's where I have to step out myself sometimes

and, and ask someone else, Hey, um.

You know, I'm, I'm, I'm going through this, this, this, this, this, you know,

um, do you see it, you know, or, or, you know, actually listening to someone

else when they tell me they see it.

Um, and, and, and that could be hard, you know, constructive criticism is one

thing, but when you're telling me that I'm not in a place where I, in my head, I

think I am, you know, and then that's, uh.

It could be hard sometimes it's a challenge, right?

I mean, well that's the thing too, is it's like, it, it's going to be, uh,

you know, held accountable like that.

Yes.

Um, where I'll have like a certain expectation in my mind of how things

are and then someone drops some truth on me and it leads to a resentment.

'cause expectations are premeditated resentments.

Exactly.

But if someone doesn't agree with this, you know, idea of the situation that I

have in my head, um, I'll resent them.

And then I gotta play the tape through and realize, okay, it's not about them at all.

It's about me and my attitude.

Exactly.

You know, uh, we go back to page four 17.

Acceptance is the answer.

Right.

And that's the whole, that's the thing is it's really, you know, everything

is, you know, if you wanna know what God's will is, uh, look outside,

you know, this is it right here.

Nothing happens outside of God's will.

Exactly.

So if you wanna know what God's will is, look around.

Yeah.

You know, this is it.

You know, you're, you're in it.

Um, and even with that, we don't, we always looked for understanding.

You know, we, we wanna know why.

Right.

You know, and, and I, for me, I, I stopped needing to know why I don't, I

don't have to know why it is what it is.

Right.

You know, um, I, I read something while back.

It was saying, you know, basically the, the.

View from the valley is different from the view from the mountaintop.

Right?

And, and we're all in the valleys.

So we, we can only see so far of, as far as why these situations are the way

they are in the world, but somebody's on the mountaintop, they can see the

long distance and, and that's where the higher power comes in, right?

You know, that's God, he, he knows the long-term effective of these things

that we see every day that we kind of.

Uh, don't see solutions to, yeah.

God knows what we do not know.

That's it.

Alright, well, Mr. Marcus, we are just about at the, uh, we're just about at

the end, uh, just about outta time today.

Uh, one of the things I ask my guests on Path, the sober seeker

is for book recommendations.

So what, is there anything you've been reading lately, maybe it's been on your

mind or anything that's been, you know, particularly life changing for you lately

that you wanna share with our listeners?

A actually, um.

I've been lagging in my book reading lately.

Uh,

it's no pressure.

No, no.

I, I'm trying to think of the, the last thing that kind of just

held me was, um, codependent.

No more codependent.

No more.

Okay.

And

who's that?

Um.

I was a female author talking about codependency, stuff like that.

Okay.

Because I, I never thought I was a codependent person, but the way

she broke it down, I was, I was looking at different things in my

life where, uh, maybe I am Right.

With certain situations.

Okay.

Well that, well, we'll find the author.

We'll drop it in the show notes for everyone.

All right.

I wanna thank everyone for tuning in today and remember, if you're

struggling, please pick up the phone before you pick up the bottle.

You know, make a good decision.

Reach out, talk to someone.

I wanna thank everyone for tuning in and in Ssha Allah.

We'll catch everyone next week on another episode of Path of the Sober Seeker.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.