So much of what we do in life is in service of avoiding discomfort. We avoid tough conversations. We avoid challenging the status quo when we know we could do better. We turn to drugs and alcohol to avoid facing other uncomfortable realities. But unfortunately the things we do to avoid discomfort often end up leading to more discomfort than the original thing we were trying to avoid in the first place. In this Emotional Push-Up, Dr. Emily talks to Chris Messina, credited with creating the hashtag, about why the most effective path to emotional growth is to become more comfortable being uncomfortable

Thank you for listening! Staying emotionally fit takes work and repetition. That's why the Emotionally Fit podcast with psychologist Dr. Emily Anhalt delivers short, actionable Emotional Push-Ups every Monday and Thursday to help you build a better practice of mental health. Join us to kickstart your emotional fitness. Let's flex those feels and do some reps together!

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The Emotionally Fit podcast is produced by Coa, your gym for mental health. Katie Sunku Wood is the show’s producer from StudioPod Media with additional editing and sound design by nodalab, and featuring music by Milano. Special thanks to the entire Coa crew!

Ready to break an emotional sweat? Welcome to Emotionally Fit with me, Dr. Emily Anhalt. As a therapist, I know that staying mentally healthy takes work and repetition. That's why I'll share Emotional Push-ups, short, actionable exercises to help you strengthen your mental fitness. From improving your friendships to managing stress, let's flex those feels and do some reps together! Hey there fit fans! I am here today with Chris Messina, inventor of the hashtag and Product Lead at Republic. Chris, how are you doing today?

I am doing fine, and it's great to see you again.

It's so great to see you too Chris. I always love our conversations. Today we're going to be talking about one of my favorite ideas. I actually believe that pretty much all emotional growth comes down to this idea, which is the profound importance of becoming more comfortable being uncomfortable.

A good one.

Yeah, because in my experience so much of what we do in life is in service of avoiding discomfort. We avoid discomfort by not having tough conversations. We avoid discomfort by accepting the status quo when we know we could do better. We avoid discomfort by numbing out through alcohol and drugs. And the problem with all of this is that the things we do to avoid discomfort often end up leading to more discomfort than the original thing we were trying to avoid. So what's powerful about increasing our comfort with discomfort is that it increases the number of options we have.

For example, if I'm in an uncomfortable conversation and the only thing I can think about is escaping that feeling, then I only have one option which is to shut down the conversation. But if I can tolerate the discomfort, I now have the option to stay and finish the conversation, or to shift the conversation slowly over time, and I still have the option to leave if I need to. So Chris, when you think about becoming more comfortable being uncomfortable, what comes up for you? What do you think about this idea?

I suppose I think about a lot of the times when I've given public talks, and especially as throughout my career the size of the audience increased or in certain cases my ability to relate to the audience was low. For example, in the case where I was on a talk show where all of the audience was essentially middle-aged women and I had to somehow explain the story of the hashtag while also being followed by a construction worker who was extremely buff and had a hammer.

So I essentially had to become extremely uncomfortable, and realize in the moment, and coach myself through it, that the only way was through it. Bringing up all this energy in me from reliving that experience, but that's the thing that comes to mind first. And I suppose as I've gotten a little bit older and can sit in my seat a little more as myself, it kind of allows me to see those parts that are a little bit more vulnerable or unkept, and that I think is interesting.

How do you get into these spaces where you learn more about yourself? Because there's so many parts that we actually never get to investigate. You may only stick within the realm or the ranges where you feel the most comfortable, and then as you said, you kind of don't quite grow into the full breadth and expanse of who you actually could be because you stay away from those parts that are underdeveloped and undernourished.

Yes. So much of what we want is on the other side of discomfort. I've really found that to be true. So I think that leads really nicely to our pushup for today, which is all about growing our ability to tolerate discomfort by just a little bit. So Chris, step one of this Push-Up today is to think of one thing that makes you a little uncomfortable. I know that you have worked through many kinds of discomfort already, but I'm going to challenge you to pick one that maybe you've been avoiding in your present life a little bit.

This shouldn't be something that terrifies you to your very core, just something you tend to avoid. So maybe it's saying no, giving constructive feedback. Maybe for some of our listeners it's public speaking, or maybe it's something like exercise. For example, I know I sometimes avoid going to yoga classes because I don't like being physically uncomfortable. So for those listening in, feel free to pause here while you think of an example of something that makes you a little uncomfortable, or keep listening to hear Chris's answer. So, Chris, what is the thing that you chose for this Push-Up, something you tend to avoid?

The thing that I've noticed that I avoid is I think getting vulnerable and taking ownership of moments where I feel misunderstood and then speaking up for myself.

That makes sense. Do you have an example of a time this happened recently that you can share a little bit about?

In fact, this happened yesterday, so yes. I was having a conversation with my partner, Jo, and she said something to me about, I don't know, the longevity of our relationship. I took it very personally because it's something that I think I've been called into question about in the past. And it really just triggered this little angry gremlin to sort of come out and lash out in a way that I don't think was necessary, appropriate, especially towards her. But in the moment I was kind of overwhelmed by that feeling.

Well, that's a wonderful example. And just to summarize, it sounds like being vulnerable in the face of an uncomfortable conversation is in itself very uncomfortable.

I think the specific thing is actually kind of maybe capturing my anger response and turning it into vulnerability. The hard thing is actually doing that.

Got it. Okay. So you avoid looking at your anger and seeing the vulnerability that it's protecting, and showing that vulnerability.

Right.

Right.

That's right. That's right. When I want to respond with anger and defensiveness.

Okay, great. So step two of this Push-Up then, Chris, is to think about what you tend to do to avoid this particular type of discomfort. So if saying no makes you uncomfortable, maybe you say yes, even when you don't want to. Or if being in the spotlight makes you uncomfortable, maybe you tend to shift focus to other people. So for you, Chris, when thinking about protecting the soft underbelly, how do you tend to avoid that discomfort?

I think my anger is a defense and it comes out verbally, and it comes out through logic, and sort of throwing up this kind of intellectual smoke screen so that I don't have to deal with the feelings and I don't have to deal with the reality of the hurt and instead can change into like a powerful being. And yet that power is kind of inappropriate in that moment.

That's really thoughtful. So rather than leaning toward the vulnerability, you lean away from it by leading with anger.

Yeah. I step into essentially a defender posture.

Yeah. That makes sense.

Or offender actually. Yeah.

Defender, offender. I mean I guess in matters of the self they are very similar.

Yeah. It feels defensive, but probably feels offensive to the other person.

Right. Well, so that I guess brings us to the final step of the Push-Up which is to think of, what is one small shock absorber that you can put into place to lean into the discomfort instead of away from it? So for a person who doesn't like saying no, instead of saying yes when you want to say no, you might say, "Let me think about that," to give yourself some time.

Or if you tend to avoid public speaking, maybe you practice giving a talk in the mirror or to a friend to get a little more comfortable with it. So Chris, when you think about leaning toward your vulnerability instead of away from it using anger, what is one small shock absorber you might put into place to allow yourself to sit in that discomfort a little longer?

You know, I think the problem is the overcorrection in the response. So I think a good shock absorber is to try to just neutralize the intensity of the reaction so that I can actually express the feelings without so much velocity. And I think I actually tried to do that yesterday when I was like, "I can't have this conversation right now, I'm so angry." And I think I did a good job of holding it myself.

So the shock absorber is both kind of recognizing that the anger is there, realizing that it has to flame itself out, and that I can't continue kind of in the tractor beam of that conversation which is only going to escalate. So I needed to go someplace else, go for a walk, to expel some of that reaction, and then I could return to it later.

Right. Well, so it sounds like you had a couple shock absorbers. The first one was knowing when you just need some time. This is a really powerful one that people do not make use of enough. We do not have to respond to things immediately. We forget that. We can say, "You know what? I need 10 minutes actually."

Or, "I need a little bit of space before I can finish this conversation." So that seems like the first thing you put into place that was powerful. And then what you did with that space was feel the anger, look at it, examine it, allow yourself to have it so that it could dissipate a little bit and perhaps reveal the vulnerability that it was protecting. Would you say that sounds right?

Yeah. I mean actually I think that's really well put. Because part of it is kind of letting the initial gas flare off, if you will, and then allowing myself to cool down to take stock of whether I am actually being threatened, or accused of something, or whatever other injustice that I feel triggered by. So then I can deal with whatever was said that caused the triggering.

And maybe it still makes me upset or I feel offended, but then I'm dealing with just what was actually said as opposed to everything that's leading me into that moment and all my narratives, and stories, and archetypes, that really have no purpose necessarily in that moment except to shield me from past hurt.

Oh, that's so beautifully said. I relate to that so much. I think we all have our version of that. And what feels powerful about this exercise is, it sounds like you intuited that that's what you needed in that moment. But as we recognize that that works for us, you can maybe more quickly know in future moments where you feel vulnerable or uncomfortable. You know what? I'm just going to take space. I'm just definitely going to build in some space for myself, and I'm going to go feel through this. I really appreciate you flexing your feel and breaking an emotional sweat with me Chris. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you. Thanks for having me in for giving a little attention to my inner Hulk.

Absolutely. And for those who want to hear more from Chris, check out our Taboo Tuesday next week, where we'll be talking about what it means for a man to be present and vocal about his sexuality in our culture. Really looking forward to that one Chris. It's always a pleasure. Thanks so much.

Thanks again.

Thanks for listening to Emotionally Fit hosted by me, Dr. Emily Anhalt. Did you do today's pushup alongside me and my guest? Tweet your experience with the hashtag #EmotionallyFit and follow me at @DrEmilyAnhalt. Please rate, review, follow and share the show wherever you listen to podcasts. This podcast is produced by Coa, your gym for mental health, where you can take live, therapist-led classes online. From group sessions to therapist matchmaking, Coa will help you build your emotional fitness routine. Head to joincoa.com, that's join-c-o-a.com, to learn more. And follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @joinCoa.

From StudioPod Media in San Francisco, our producer is Katie Sunku Wood. Music is by Milano. Special thanks to the entire Coa crew!