Artwork for podcast Are You Mental?
Loneliness
Episode 8 • 18th November 2023 • Are You Mental? • Mick Andrews
00:00:00 01:18:12

Share Episode

Transcripts

Sooz:

Loneliness sucks, man.

Sooz:

F ing sucks.

Mick:

Welcome to Are You Mental, a podcast about mental health.

Mick:

My name is McAndrews and today we're talking all about loneliness.

Mick:

Now, you might not think of loneliness as a mental health issue, more of a difficult

Mick:

emotion that we all feel sometimes.

Mick:

And by the way, we do all feel lonely sometimes.

Mick:

But it's been discovered that social isolation and loneliness

Mick:

has a dramatic and damaging effect on us, not just mentally and

Mick:

emotionally, but also physically.

Mick:

If we're lonely for long enough, we're more likely to get sick, more likely to

Mick:

experience depression and anxiety, And the socially isolated even die younger.

Mick:

Not to mention, as one of our guests so eloquently put

Mick:

it, loneliness effing sucks.

Mick:

So, what's going on when we feel lonely?

Mick:

What causes loneliness?

Mick:

How does it affect us?

Mick:

And how can we avoid it?

Mick:

Well, by sheer coincidence, these are the exact questions we'll be diving

Mick:

into today, with a particularly engaging and insightful group of guests.

Mick:

Now, I know this is a pretty long episode, but It really had to be,

Mick:

because it's all really good stuff.

Mick:

So, feel free to break it up over a couple of sittings.

Mick:

But first, let's cover off some admin.

Mick:

Now, I'm really grateful for those of you who donated to make this episode possible.

Mick:

If you like the show, or if it's helped you in some way, it would be great if

Mick:

you could contribute to the next episode.

Mick:

So go to rumental.

Mick:

com and click on the donate button.

Mick:

I love getting feedback about the show, so if you want to drop

Mick:

me a line, you can email me.

Mick:

That's mick@areyoumental.com And, follow us on Instagram, at rumentalpodcast.

Mick:

So you know when you're considering buying a certain type of car, and

Mick:

you suddenly see them everywhere?

Mick:

Well, it's been a bit like that for me in the past few weeks.

Mick:

While making this episode, I've noticed just how many songs talk about loneliness.

Mick:

Seriously, it's countless.

Mick:

Which just speaks to how universal the experience of loneliness is.

Mick:

And from what I can tell, it seems that feeling lonely from time to time

Mick:

for short periods It's totally normal and nothing to be concerned about.

Mick:

But when loneliness lasts for a long time or starts to underpin and colour

Mick:

our experience of life, that's when it can have a quite damaging effect on us

Mick:

mentally, emotionally and physically.

Mick:

And you're about to meet two really insightful and courageous people

Mick:

who talk about the dramatic effect loneliness has had on their lives.

Mick:

And you'll be happy as a clam to hear that our favourite psychologist

Mick:

Nettie Cullen is back to give us the lowdown on loneliness.

Mick:

So, when I put a post on social media asking if someone had had a

Mick:

significant journey with loneliness, I heard back from an old friend I

Mick:

hadn't seen for ages called Suze.

Sooz:

Right, uh, well, my name is Susannah Fugere, most commonly known as Suze.

Sooz:

Um, 43.

Mick:

Same.

Sooz:

Great.

Sooz:

80s.

Sooz:

Yes.

Mick:

1980.

Sooz:

1980.

Sooz:

I'm a mother of two wonderful, amazing children, 17 and 15, boy and girl.

Mick:

And the boy is right now competing.

Mick:

The

Sooz:

boy is right now, as we speak, competing in the National

Sooz:

Scholastics Championships for Surfing.

Sooz:

And my daughter just represented Auckland in rugby.

Mick:

Wow.

Sooz:

Future Black Fern.

Mick:

So Suze lives out on the west coast of my hometown, Auckland, New Zealand.

Sooz:

On a beautiful beach called Piha, where everybody knows your name and

Sooz:

they think they know your business.

Sooz:

Which is, can be a blessing and a curse.

Mick:

So, I was really surprised that Suze responded to my post about loneliness,

Mick:

because she is one of the most social people you could ever hope to meet.

Mick:

In fact, if I was to Google the phrase, life of the party, it wouldn't entirely

Mick:

surprise me if there was just a photo of Suze smiling and waving at the camera.

Mick:

So how does someone who has never lacked friends end up experiencing an

Mick:

almost crippling amount of loneliness?

Mick:

Well, to answer that, you won't be surprised to hear we're going to

Mick:

wind the clock back a few decades.

Sooz:

I was the youngest of four, and it wasn't until I was about the age of six

Sooz:

or seven where I discovered that what I thought was my family makeup of mum, dad,

Sooz:

us four siblings, was not indeed the case.

Sooz:

In fact, I had a different birth father.

Sooz:

And, you know, your foundations of what you think family are and who

Sooz:

you are is Quite confirmed, I guess.

Sooz:

So, to have that rattled without having the tools to deal with that.

Sooz:

Mm.

Sooz:

Quite a lot.

Sooz:

So From a bit of an early age, I just felt different.

Sooz:

I felt like I wasn't a part of something I thought I was a part of.

Mick:

Your family, essentially.

Sooz:

Yeah.

Sooz:

What I thought were my full blood brothers and sisters were only half.

Sooz:

Um, so from a very early age, there was kind of this brooding of this

Sooz:

emotional DNA volcano, really.

Sooz:

That even makes sense.

Sooz:

That sat deep within this kind of bubbling thing of isolation.

Sooz:

I don't fit here and I don't fit there.

Sooz:

I actually don't really fit anywhere.

Sooz:

Um.

Sooz:

I came from a family that, because of how we were made up, and I think that

Sooz:

generation, our parents generation, they didn't talk about things deeply,

Sooz:

you know, it was a, everything's fine, we're a great family, let's just

Sooz:

pretend like we're a great family and everything's gonna be good, you know,

Sooz:

it's a bit of a sweep under the carpet, that was very much the culture of our

Sooz:

family, we don't talk about Stuff.

Mick:

So you didn't get a chance to process it and deal with it then?

Sooz:

No.

Sooz:

It was always, shh.

Sooz:

Don't talk about it.

Sooz:

We know about it, but let's just not bring it up.

Sooz:

'cause it makes us all feel really uncomfortable.

Mick:

Which I'm guessing as a kid makes you feel like there's

Mick:

something wrong with you.

Sooz:

Correct.

Sooz:

Yeah, and I feel very alone in trying to process that.

Mick:

And how did you carry that through your teens and

Mick:

then eventually into adulthood?

Sooz:

Well I, um, very badly.

Sooz:

Laughter Um, it just sat, like I said, this bubbling thing deep

Sooz:

down that was just not looked at.

Sooz:

Just client said occasionally and made you feel uncomfortable, so

Sooz:

you didn't look at it And it wasn't until I was about 17 or 18 that I

Sooz:

actually did find my birth father

Mick:

All right

Sooz:

You know went through that experience and then finding out about

Sooz:

this half family and that was even another thing because it was right in My face

Sooz:

again that I was not part of the thing that I really wanted to be a part of

Mick:

and what was The connection with them like when you found them

Sooz:

They were stoked and I was uneasy Very When I look back on loneliness,

Sooz:

I think that's where it began.

Sooz:

That's where it began.

Mick:

From a kid who didn't know where she belonged, Suze grew into

Mick:

an adult who was vivacious and outgoing, and constantly making other

Mick:

people feel welcome and accepted.

Sooz:

Naturally, I'm a very bubbly social person, that's who I am.

Sooz:

I'm like, charismatic, I can get up on, sing in a band, I can MC an audience,

Sooz:

I can I love being around people.

Sooz:

I feed off being around people, you know.

Sooz:

People would think that you're an extrovert, but I'd

Sooz:

kind of tend to disagree.

Mick:

You're not an extrovert?

Mick:

I

Sooz:

don't think so.

Mick:

Wow.

Sooz:

No, I, I would rather be singing in a covers band entertaining a room

Sooz:

of people than being in the room of people having to talk to people.

Sooz:

Right.

Sooz:

But you're good at it.

Sooz:

Thank you.

Sooz:

That's not my safe space, but I do feed off people.

Sooz:

I throw dinner parties.

Sooz:

I love bringing people together.

Sooz:

That's who I am.

Sooz:

In fact, you know how you do those personality types and what's your

Sooz:

spirit animal and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Sooz:

I once got told that my spirit animal was a penguin.

Sooz:

I don't know if you know much about penguins.

Sooz:

They're herd animals, right?

Sooz:

Do you call it a herd or a flock of penguins?

Mick:

Flock, maybe?

Mick:

Would you call

Sooz:

it a flock of penguins?

Sooz:

More birdy than, I don't know.

Mick:

Sorry, but my geeky side can't resist interrupting here.

Mick:

So, a group of penguins can go by a few names, but most commonly they're

Mick:

called a colony, a rookery, or a huddle.

Mick:

Swimming penguins are called a raft, and walking penguins are called a waddle.

Sooz:

But they're very social, you know, they make families, and they

Sooz:

hang out together, and they weather the storms together, and they do

Sooz:

things all at the same time, and they keep each other warm in groups.

Sooz:

So yeah, so there's definitely been moments in my life where I've felt

Sooz:

like that penguin, on an iceberg, all by itself, floating alone.

Sooz:

There have been moments in my life where I could be in those, in those

Sooz:

natural environments, and feel like the loneliest person in the room.

Sooz:

Even though I'm surrounded by people.

Mick:

How does that work?

Sooz:

It comes from a place of feeling like you're misunderstood, or not

Sooz:

heard or seen, or that you, you know, can't communicate where you're at.

Sooz:

So it can be very isolating.

Mick:

So people are seeing what's on the outside.

Sooz:

Yeah.

Sooz:

And I think people naturally assume that you, cause you've got lots of friends and

Sooz:

you're surrounded by people and you're out doing all these things that she's fine.

Sooz:

She never going to be lonely or feel alone or.

Sooz:

Yeah.

Sooz:

And I love connecting with people on a, on a deep level, you know, and I'm having

Sooz:

conversations and it's not really until my later life, later life, I'm not old that I

Sooz:

have wanted to have deeper conversations.

Sooz:

And deep connection.

Nettie:

Loneliness is the emotional experience or the feeling of

Nettie:

a lack or loss of meaningful connections and companionship.

Mick:

If you follow the show, you'll know that this is our resident psychologist and

Mick:

all round fount of wisdom, Nettie Cullen.

Mick:

And actually, when we first sat down for this interview, she made my day by telling

Mick:

me that on a recent trip overseas, an airline employee recognized her name.

Nettie:

I didn't want to say in front of a whole bunch of people I'm on a podcast.

Mick:

That's about mental health.

Mick:

I'm

Nettie:

famous.

Nettie:

I was like, no, I'm not famous.

Nettie:

I'm really not.

Mick:

So we'll never really know for sure whether she was recognized because

Mick:

of the podcast, but I like to think so.

Mick:

Anyway, let's rewind back to before I rudely interrupted when Nettie

Mick:

is describing what loneliness is.

Nettie:

Loneliness is, the emotional experience or the feeling of a lack

Nettie:

or loss of meaningful connections and companionship when your needs for

Nettie:

social connection are not being met.

Nettie:

And it's also kind of thought of in terms of the disparity or the discrepancy

Nettie:

between what you actually are experiencing in your social life as compared to what

Nettie:

you want or desire or perhaps even need.

Nettie:

So we feel that lack when there's a mismatch between what we long

Nettie:

for What we need, what we crave, and what we're actually getting

Nettie:

in our social connections.

Mick:

It's kind of a sadness, isn't it, loneliness?

Mick:

Emotionally it feels like sadness, doesn't it?

Nettie:

It feels like, like emptiness and lack.

Mick:

And

Nettie:

we can be sad about the emptiness or lack.

Mick:

Right.

Mick:

Is loneliness an emotion?

Nettie:

Gosh, that's a good question.

Nettie:

It is an emotional response.

Nettie:

Yes.

Nettie:

So I'd say yes, it is an emotion.

Mick:

But the emotion is that kind of lack, that craving, that, oh,

Nettie:

oh, I want that,

Mick:

you know?

Mick:

Yeah.

Mick:

And then the sadness can follow in a way.

Nettie:

Yeah.

Nettie:

So the loneliness is the, the felt experience.

Nettie:

It's a bit like hunger.

Nettie:

Like when you've got a lack of nourishment or lack of food, you feel hungry.

Nettie:

You feel The lack of something and the need for something and

Nettie:

loneliness is the feeling of a lack of something and a need for something

Nettie:

That isn't being met or fulfilled.

Mick:

Hmm.

Mick:

I like that hunger analogy.

Mick:

I think that's seems quite apt That's

Nettie:

something we could work with quite a bit,

Mick:

right?

Mick:

It's like you came prepared

Nettie:

and the interesting thing is that Our need for social connection is arguably

Nettie:

as fundamental as our need for food.

Mick:

Wow.

Mick:

And I think it's similar in the sense that like, if you're really hungry and

Mick:

you see even a photo of a beautiful burger, you're like, Oh man, I really

Nettie:

want that burger.

Nettie:

That's right.

Nettie:

And if you're

Mick:

really lonely, and like, let's say you'd see like two

Mick:

lovebirds on the beach or something, you're like, Oh, I want that.

Mick:

You know, like there's a similar kind of.

Nettie:

And your reaction to that, like if you're really hungry and you see.

Nettie:

And an image of a burger, your mouth will start watering

Mick:

right now,

Nettie:

and you will have a physical reaction, a physical response.

Nettie:

And so the interesting thing about loneliness too, is that

Nettie:

it's something that we feel.

Nettie:

It's not just an emotional experience.

Nettie:

It, it's a bodily felt experience as well.

Nettie:

And so it's, it's no accident really that the language that we use around

Nettie:

loneliness is about craving and longing and pangs that reflect that.

Nettie:

That very primitive primal need.

Nettie:

Sometimes we can get a little bit duped into thinking that if I just have that

Nettie:

one person in my life that's going to satisfy me and that's all I need.

Nettie:

But in fact no one person can meet all of our needs and we have other needs

Nettie:

from our social environments as well.

Nettie:

We need a sense of friendship and a sense of being supported and looked

Nettie:

after and where we kind of share our lives and share our memories and

Nettie:

share our experiences um with friends.

Nettie:

But then there's also this sense of belonging and connectedness that we get

Nettie:

from being part of something a little bit bigger, a community, a network, a club.

Mick:

That's our tribe.

Nettie:

That's our tribe.

Nettie:

And so we can experience a sense of loneliness or lack in any of those areas.

Mick:

So I know that we've kind of danced around it in a really good way.

Mick:

But if, if just to give it a bit of kind of structure, when it

Mick:

comes to loneliness, what type of connection alleviates loneliness?

Nettie:

I think it comes down to that longing that we all have to

Nettie:

be known and to be understood and for someone else to get us, for

Nettie:

our experience to be acknowledged.

Nettie:

Um, there's something about that feeling we get when somebody else really gets us.

Nettie:

There's something about what we can endure, actually, when perhaps what

Nettie:

we're going through can't be changed.

Nettie:

But if somebody gets it and recognizes and can feel with us and be connected

Nettie:

with us along with it, we can, we can bear it in a different kind of way.

Nettie:

What pops into my head is my daughter saying to me, mom, I know

Nettie:

you can't do anything about it.

Nettie:

I just need to know that you get it.

Mick:

And

Nettie:

I'll say, yeah, I get it.

Nettie:

And she goes, good.

Mick:

Let's go back to Suze now, and she's just told me that she got

Mick:

married pretty young at the age of 24, and not long after, had two kids.

Mick:

By the time she was in her early 30s, she found life had become quite the juggle.

Mick:

And you're

Sooz:

building your empire of business and houses and life is busy,

Sooz:

and then all of a sudden you go to kind of connect and you, this is

Sooz:

where the loneliness came in again.

Sooz:

Because the people that.

Sooz:

You think should really really know you should really have you and whether that's

Sooz:

brothers or sisters or families or aunties or aunts or Husbands or whatever everybody

Sooz:

has a different thing and when they don't and when you can't connect anymore You go

Sooz:

straight back to that isolating feeling.

Sooz:

You're like, oh god, am I ever gonna find a connection here?

Mick:

Does anyone really get me?

Sooz:

Yeah.

Sooz:

Yeah.

Sooz:

Am I crazy?

Sooz:

Is it normal to feel like this?

Sooz:

Or is it circumstantial?

Sooz:

What's making me feel this isolated amongst the people that I should feel

Sooz:

the most safe with and connected to?

Sooz:

It's sad, really.

Sooz:

So yeah, that bubbly, social, fill the room with people and

Sooz:

make everybody feel happy.

Sooz:

I was like, hello, can anybody make me feel good?

Sooz:

What is that?

Sooz:

And I started to recognise that I felt like I was this person

Sooz:

in a room full of people and family and connections standing.

Sooz:

It kind of felt like I was standing in this glass case, banging

Sooz:

at the doors going, I want to connect with you, but I can't.

Sooz:

Like, why can't we talk about deep stuff?

Sooz:

You kind of feel like you're surrounded by people that are looking at you and

Sooz:

having a great time, but don't see you.

Sooz:

And, fast forward, um, I went through a marriage breakup,

Sooz:

which was quite traumatizing.

Sooz:

My kids got a bit older, my son moved away for his seventh form year.

Sooz:

And I only had my daughter every second week.

Sooz:

So then all of a sudden I was this woman on my own, all of a sudden I, this giving

Sooz:

person had no one to give to anymore.

Sooz:

So I lost a bit of purpose and I guess, and that was when the

Sooz:

real loneliness started to come.

Sooz:

And you know, living in a small community and you, everybody knows your

Sooz:

name, but nobody asks you how you are.

Mick:

Are

Sooz:

you okay?

Mick:

Didn't get that.

Sooz:

Not even from my family.

Sooz:

You know, my brothers, my sisters, no one asked me if I was okay.

Sooz:

They just assumed that because I'm this personality and this trooper,

Sooz:

this one that just keeps going, this little battler, that I would be okay.

Sooz:

But the fact that nobody asked was really isolating.

Sooz:

And I felt really lonely.

Sooz:

Mm hmm.

Sooz:

Really, really lonely.

Sooz:

And initially I'd try to fill that with going out, going to a gig, just go to

Sooz:

a music festival, go and do stuff, just go out and be around lots of things

Sooz:

and just keep yourself really busy.

Sooz:

But it didn't stop this kind of deep ache of isolation.

Sooz:

So I had to give myself a couple of pep talks, you know, and go, listen,

Sooz:

Fujiya, you gotta figure this out.

Sooz:

Cause this could either take you down a really bad rabbit hole, and it, and there

Sooz:

was a couple of moments where it did, or you got some working out to do, cause you

Sooz:

want to keep tripping up on this stuff.

Sooz:

So

Mick:

At this time, had you started to get some insight into that stuff around

Mick:

your family and how that was playing into?

Mick:

I had,

Sooz:

I had done a bit of therapy after my marriage breakup, actually, one

Sooz:

of the main reasons I went to therapy was because I did go deep dark into

Sooz:

that sad, lonely abyss and, and I gave myself a fright, really, about how

Sooz:

quickly I could, my mind could take control and just go to a dark place.

Sooz:

And it was that fright said, you've got to do something about this.

Sooz:

Go and talk to someone so I did go to therapy for a while And it was really

Sooz:

helpful when I did talk about stuff And I got the tools to get me through those

Sooz:

dark dark patches, but the pep talk I gave myself wasn't that Necessarily it was you

Sooz:

have to sit in your own skin for a while and you have to feel Lonely, and you have

Sooz:

to acknowledge it and you have to look at it and not try to fill it just You

Sooz:

And that sucked.

Sooz:

It sucked so much, because it was like, going against everything of who I was, you

Sooz:

know, being surrounded by people, but I couldn't be around people and be good for

Sooz:

people if I couldn't be good with myself.

Sooz:

So, there was Learning how to be alone and not be lonely,

Sooz:

where previously, for my personality type, being alone meant that you were lonely.

Sooz:

So I just had to learn to like myself a bit, and that's not always easy, you know?

Sooz:

It's not always easy.

Mick:

And how did you go about that?

Sooz:

When I had my weeks without the children, Um, normally what I

Sooz:

do is I'd be like, right, this is my week to go out and socialize.

Sooz:

I'm going to go out every night.

Sooz:

I'll just go to this person's house for dinner, that person's house for dinner.

Sooz:

I'll be like, I won't be alone by myself at night.

Sooz:

No, I just go home and I'll be so tired.

Sooz:

I'll just go to sleep and everything will be fine.

Mick:

And was it?

Sooz:

No, it wasn't because I'd be going out for dinner and being

Sooz:

lonely and miserable as anything.

Sooz:

Whilst with

VO:

people, right?

Sooz:

Yeah.

Sooz:

So I was like, no, sit at home, learn to be okay with yourself, learn to

Sooz:

like yourself, do things for you.

Sooz:

So, I started getting back into my exercise early in the morning, making

Sooz:

healthy choices, just doing things for my body to start with, things that made

Sooz:

me feel good, put me in a healthy space.

Sooz:

Nice.

Sooz:

I took up DJing.

Sooz:

Took up a new hobby.

Sooz:

I bought myself a sound system and some turntables and went to DJ lessons and

Sooz:

gave myself something to think about and do that didn't require pulling five

Sooz:

people together for a band practice.

Sooz:

It's something I can do at home on my own and it brings me joy.

Sooz:

But also recognizing when I needed to reach out and be vulnerable.

Sooz:

And say to friends, I'm feeling really lonely, can I please come over?

Mick:

And that way I'm guessing you're starting that interaction

Mick:

off on a vulnerable foot.

Mick:

Like you're not saying, let's go out for a party, let's have a band practice.

Mick:

You're saying, I'm struggling.

Sooz:

I'm struggling.

Sooz:

And I need your help.

Sooz:

I feel lonely and I don't want to be alone.

Sooz:

Can I, can I come over and hang out?

Mick:

That's hard to do.

Mick:

It's hard

Sooz:

because it's not what we're taught to I would,

Mick:

I think I'd say, hey, be cool to hang to a friend.

Mick:

And I might get, get, get the idea that I need to hang.

Mick:

But that's.

Mick:

That's really brave to say, I'm actually feeling lonely, you know?

Sooz:

Well, going through that, like I said, going through that experience

Sooz:

of getting to a really dark place really quickly, and being, giving

Sooz:

myself a fright, I had to learn who I could trust, where my safe space

Sooz:

is, who can I be vulnerable with,

Mick:

Who can handle it.

Sooz:

Who can handle it.

Sooz:

Who's got either emotional maturity, Yeah, who can handle it, I guess.

Sooz:

And who do I feel safe in saying that Suze Fougere, social

Sooz:

extraordinaire, feels really lonely.

Sooz:

Yeah.

Sooz:

And it takes time to figure out who are your people.

Mick:

And how did they respond when you called and said, I'm

Mick:

feeling really lonely, can I hang?

Sooz:

Always amazing.

Mick:

Yeah.

Mick:

We'll head back to our psychologist Nettie now, talking about the difference

Mick:

between being alone and loneliness.

Nettie:

So being alone is a physical kind of factual state, I suppose,

Nettie:

but how we experience ourselves in that solitude is a critical part, I

Nettie:

think, of whether we then feel lonely.

Nettie:

And I think it probably comes back to Our very very early experiences

Nettie:

if my very very early experiences are one of being connected and and held

Nettie:

both physically and emotionally and psychologically, then that's something

Nettie:

that goes woven into the psyche, woven into my sense of self and my sense of

Nettie:

being, which I can carry into my future.

Nettie:

If my experience tells me that relationships can be dangerous and harmful

Nettie:

and risky, that sets up some complications about how I go into future connections.

Mick:

So you hear of people who are like in a big, busy

Mick:

family, surrounded by people.

Mick:

But they're still feeling really lonely.

Nettie:

Mm hmm.

Mick:

How how does that happen?

Nettie:

Mm hmm?

Nettie:

it's such a common experience actually because busyness and Crowds or or large

Nettie:

groups of people does not mean that each of those people are tuning in to the other

Mick:

What about even in a family?

Nettie:

Even in a family, it takes a deliberate, conscious effort to

Nettie:

tune in to another person, to pay attention, to be curious, to wonder.

Nettie:

And it's much easier to just be occupied with the latest, most urgent demand.

Nettie:

And that takes our attention and we have to choose to slow down and

Nettie:

wonder about the other and take the time to connect and listen.

Nettie:

So it takes time and choice to listen.

Nettie:

I mean, it's such a common story.

Nettie:

Actually, people, people will say so often.

Nettie:

I had a really happy.

Nettie:

I had a really wonderful, active, busy family, but I never felt

Nettie:

like anybody really knew me.

Nettie:

I never felt like I was completely visible.

Nettie:

Often people will talk about feeling invisible and how lonely

Nettie:

is that to feel invisible?

Mick:

And I guess even in a, you know, like a partnership, if, like

Mick:

you said before, it boils down to feeling like someone gets you, um,

Mick:

There's still a lot of space even in a, in an intimate partnership for, to

Mick:

not feel fully understood by someone.

Nettie:

Yeah, especially when everybody has their own stuff

Nettie:

going on that they're dealing with.

Nettie:

And if I'm preoccupied with what's on my mind and what I'm thinking about,

Nettie:

my partner can quite easily feel lonely

Mick:

in that

Nettie:

moment because I'm not being present.

Mick:

And I know, I don't, I know we're going to talk more kind of so

Mick:

called solutions later, but Seeing as we're on that now, like, what

Mick:

intentional things can you put in place in a partnership that can help that?

Nettie:

I think it can be really valuable to be deliberate about making

Nettie:

time to consciously connect, to ask questions, to be curious, to ask

Nettie:

for more, to go deeper, to wonder.

Mick:

And that it's okay to even, not schedule it as such, but to actually

Mick:

be like, Oh, we've got this hour.

Mick:

Let's do that.

Nettie:

Actually, probably scheduling in a busy family is almost.

Mick:

Yeah.

Nettie:

Because if sometimes if things don't get scheduled, they just

Mick:

don't happen.

Nettie:

If you wait for a good time,

Mick:

you know, you'd be waiting,

Nettie:

you might be waiting till the cows come home.

Nettie:

So but we can, we can also, we have these kind of romantic notions of how a

Nettie:

relationship should be and, and we don't often don't like the idea of scheduling.

Nettie:

Intimacy.

Nettie:

Yeah.

Nettie:

Scheduling going deeper and connecting emotionally because we have these

Nettie:

kind of romantic notions that somehow it just happens and that we just get

Nettie:

each other without even having to try, but we actually have to try.

Mick:

So when I put a post on social media, looking for people

Mick:

to talk to for this episode, I got replies from two women.

Mick:

One of course was Suze.

Mick:

But I wanted to speak to a man about his experience of loneliness, but

Mick:

was having real trouble finding one willing to talk about it.

Mick:

I messaged big groups of friends, I cast the net out even wider, but nothing.

Mick:

I wonder whether this is because men see loneliness as a sign of weakness, and

Mick:

they're famously reluctant to ever show any weakness, particularly publicly.

Mick:

But whatever it is, I got to the point where I was nearly ready to give up.

Mick:

But then I was lying in bed at night listening to a sleep

Mick:

podcast I discovered recently.

Mick:

What is a sleep podcast?

Mick:

Well, in this podcast called Sleep With Me, this American guy with

Mick:

this drawling, dragged out voice tells stories that make very little

Mick:

sense and often go round in circles.

Mick:

And for someone with an overactive mind like me, you just rest half your

Mick:

attention on the meandering story Stopping your own busy cycle of thoughts, and

Mick:

it helps you fall asleep more quickly.

Mick:

So, I've been listening to this most nights for the last three months or

Mick:

so, and even finding myself looking forward to pushing play and hearing this.

Drew:

Friends beyond binary, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls.

Mick:

Anyway, the other day, to mark his 1200th episode, 1200.

Mick:

The host Drew told a little bit of his own story and referenced experiencing

Mick:

a lot of loneliness in his life.

Mick:

Obviously my ears pricked up and I emailed him the next morning.

Mick:

So Drew releases two episodes a week and about 200, 000 people listen

Mick:

to every one of them, so I wasn't really expecting to hear back.

Mick:

But within a few hours he'd replied saying he was keen and before they knew it, with

Mick:

an ocean between them, two professional podcasters were recording an interview.

Mick:

Hello, hello.

Drew:

I don't think I'm hearing you.

Drew:

Hmm.

Drew:

Check, check, check.

Mick:

Hello, checking, one, two.

Drew:

Okay, maybe it's this.

Drew:

It's gotta be this.

Mick:

You got

Drew:

me?

Drew:

You

Mick:

got me?

Drew:

Got you now.

Drew:

All right.

Drew:

I'm hearing myself echoing.

Mick:

After fumbling around for a good while, We finally

Mick:

sorted out the technical issues.

Mick:

Such a professional outfit here.

Drew:

Between the two of us, we can make one podcast, you know?

Mick:

So it's probably worth pointing out that both my guests in this episode

Mick:

have experienced a kind of long term loneliness that got weaved into them at

Mick:

a young age, whereas some of us don't actually experience a strong sense of

Mick:

loneliness until we go through a season of feeling isolated in our adult lives.

Mick:

Obviously, both experiences of loneliness are valid and have a big impact on us.

Mick:

Anetti will be speaking to the more seasonal experience of loneliness later

Mick:

on, but for now, here's Drew talking about when he first started feeling lonely.

Drew:

I'm the oldest of six kids.

Drew:

Wow.

Drew:

And so I think the idea of loneliness kind of is tied in for, probably for

Drew:

me, with something like shame or like something forbidden, because it's like,

Drew:

what kind of person could be lonely In a house full of kids, there must be

Drew:

something really defective about you.

Drew:

If you could be lonely when you're sharing a room with one or two of your

Drew:

brothers and I guess like my first bouts with it where it really hurts,

Drew:

uh, and was painful was at night.

Drew:

Um, I had, uh, had some undiagnosed learning issues and the, they kind

Drew:

of manifested with like the idea that this kid's just a problem, right?

Drew:

Like he doesn't want to learn.

Drew:

He's lazy.

Drew:

And the teachers would tell me that and I'd be like, man, I don't feel lazy.

Drew:

Like, like, I don't feel like a bad kid.

Drew:

I just can't get this to work.

Drew:

And I mean, I think one of the things I told myself is, well, maybe I was

Drew:

born on the wrong planet or maybe I'm cursed or whatever it is, there

Drew:

must be something wrong with me.

Drew:

And in those moments in between the racing thoughts and the intense feelings, there

Drew:

was kind of this darker voice in me that was like, man, you're really screwed.

Drew:

Like, uh, this really is hopeless.

Drew:

This really is your fault.

Drew:

Like, uh, I wish we weren't in this mess, but you're the one that got us into it.

Drew:

But really what it felt like was like pain.

Drew:

I mean, even now.

Drew:

I can pretty readily readily access it and it was like this physical

Drew:

searing feeling lying there just a sense of hopeless isolation.

Mick:

So, would I be right in saying that the loneliness part of it is the

Mick:

fact that no one can be in there with you feeling those things with you

Mick:

and truly understand what it's like?

Drew:

Right, like the lonely part of it was I guess like a mistaken notion I

Drew:

had as a kid that like This was my fault or this should be something that's easy

Drew:

to deal with And um the fact that it wasn't meant that there was something

Drew:

wrong with me almost like in a loneliness sense repulsive to the community like

Drew:

the community i'm in like This, this kid is marked and we need to avoid them.

Drew:

It's, it's who I am at, at my essence.

Drew:

Like there's something terribly wrong with me at my core.

Drew:

It's pretty bleak.

Mick:

Fast forward to adulthood and Drew had started using alcohol

Mick:

and substances to numb this feeling of being deeply defective.

Drew:

And that kind of worked.

Drew:

For a long time to kind of help me kind of control my experience in

Drew:

the world, like, and help me kind of tone it down and moderate it

Drew:

and, and moderate a lot of my fears.

Drew:

And I actually lived like a long portion of my life that way of like one day, as

Drew:

long as I can cope with, with this now and stay just tuned out enough, like one

Drew:

day I'm going to get my act together and then I'm going to feel good and okay.

Drew:

And that day actually just.

Drew:

It never came like my life kind of deteriorated

Mick:

and at that point in your life, you know, what's your experience of

Mick:

loneliness in that season of your life

Drew:

that one it was a little bit more crafty and like, because I had

Drew:

kind of built up so many walls against it, but it would be a similar thing

Drew:

to that childhood thing of like when there was just a pause or there was

Drew:

just a quiet moment and it was like, the loneliness was like this ooze.

Drew:

Like, leaking through the doorways.

Drew:

Like, I thought our life was gonna be something else.

Drew:

Like, I thought we were gonna work, work on this.

Drew:

Or I thought we were getting into this relationship so it'd be fulfilling.

Drew:

Cause it was like, okay, really I'm just so afraid that what I believe is true.

Drew:

That it's like i had to be like inside my own bubble or something like that

Drew:

like a self imposed bubble so it's like oh i can't talk to anybody about this

Drew:

if you know what it was like inside this head you to understand how bad

Drew:

it is and people as in relationships with their family members would be like

Drew:

you're so detached you you really are like an island like all the songs about

Drew:

loneliness about being an island or being a rock or whatever like that's you man

Mick:

and.

Mick:

Do you have an idea of where that sense of you being defective came from?

Drew:

You know, I, I don't, uh, it came from someplace painful probably,

Drew:

and maybe it came from one event that I don't remember, or maybe it was just

Drew:

like a mistaken thing that then I started rolling like a little ball and it grew,

Drew:

grew bigger and bigger and bigger.

Drew:

But the sad thing is it came from a mistake, like a misunderstanding.

Drew:

Of the way the world works and my place in it And I held on to it so tightly

Drew:

like that It was like, uh, for whatever reason I really attached myself to that

Drew:

idea And internalized it and that was the lens I started to view the world

Drew:

through it's like well, you're really doomed Like the, it, the, the idea

Drew:

of a paper dragon kind of comes up because as you talk about it, you can

Drew:

kind of see the holes in the argument.

Drew:

It's like, well, why am I really doing, well, cause you're

Drew:

totally defective human being.

Drew:

Well, what part is this?

Drew:

No, it's just, I don't understand it.

Drew:

You just like, it's like that part of me, it's like, I'm just

Drew:

trying to be your friend, man.

Drew:

You're totally screwed.

Drew:

Like there's nothing you can do about it.

Drew:

Give up all hope.

Drew:

I'm here to protect you.

Drew:

Uh, wow.

Drew:

And I think I just had to live that life till failure, till I was like literally

Drew:

like alone, where I almost had nothing.

Drew:

I have a daughter, like I probably, if I kept at what I was doing, I probably

Drew:

lost all custody and time with her.

Drew:

I would have been living in a one room apartment.

Drew:

And part of me would have been okay with that.

Drew:

I wouldn't even have seen how lonely that is.

Drew:

It's like, look what, look what your loneliness and your attachment to

Drew:

what's beneath it has gotten you.

Drew:

And it's like, uh, now you're total, you actually are totally alone.

Drew:

That's where I realized, wow, this just doesn't work.

Drew:

Like I have, I am alone.

Drew:

I am lonely.

Drew:

Um, and I need, need some help from other people.

Drew:

And I guess that's kind of where I started to change.

Drew:

Uh, or be open to the kind of idea of like, what if all this is,

Drew:

what if I'm wrong about all this?

Mick:

In a minute, we'll hear how Drew got out of this dark hole,

Mick:

but first, let's go back to Nettie.

Mick:

What does loneliness do to us?

Nettie:

Whoa, okay.

Mick:

Whoa.

Nettie:

Whoa.

Nettie:

So, loneliness is it's painful, it's unwanted, right?

Nettie:

So

Mick:

it hurts us.

Nettie:

It hurts and it hurts physically as well as

Nettie:

emotionally and psychologically.

Nettie:

And what happens when we feel lonely is that like any kind of

Nettie:

unwanted situation, it triggers a whole lot of stress hormones.

Nettie:

It impacts on us physically in that our heart rate goes up, our

Nettie:

blood pressure goes up, our immune function is compromised, our ability

Nettie:

to to relax and restore physically.

Nettie:

is impacted because we are pushed into some degree of that threat response,

Nettie:

that fight or flight experience, which in little doses we can usually manage.

Nettie:

If it's prolonged, that can have significant impacts on our

Nettie:

physical well being over time.

Mick:

So are you pausing you there?

Mick:

Are you saying that loneliness can put us into like a fight or flight

Nettie:

Yeah, it puts us into, into a threat response, whether

Nettie:

that's fight or flight or freeze.

Nettie:

Because loneliness and social isolation in particular is possibly the most

Nettie:

threatening thing for a human being.

Nettie:

To be separated and disconnected is a real threat.

Nettie:

It's a threat, it's a threat to our survival.

Mick:

Does this kind of go back to the kind of evolutionary kind of like if we

Mick:

got separated from our tribe we could get eaten without anyone helping us?

Mick:

Yeah.

Mick:

Defending our, you know, is it?

Nettie:

Yeah, there's, there's that, there's that individual.

Nettie:

Is it primitive?

Nettie:

Yes, it's very primitive.

Nettie:

There's that individual level of I need my tribe to survive, but

Nettie:

my tribe also needs me to survive.

Nettie:

So there's, it goes in both directions.

Nettie:

We Do everything is better when we do it together.

Mick:

Jack Johnson.

Nettie:

So say more about the threat.

Nettie:

Why is it so threatening?

Nettie:

Because our survival depends on social connections.

Mick:

Why?

Mick:

I could live alone and order Uber Eats and

Nettie:

You, you might, you might survive for a while, but you would sicken.

Mick:

Wow.

Mick:

Wow.

Mick:

Physically included.

Nettie:

Yeah.

Nettie:

And you certainly wouldn't be thriving.

Mick:

I saw this thing on, uh, in the research process for this episode.

Mick:

The UK have done a lot of work around loneliness and they've got a minister

Mick:

of loneliness as does Japan actually.

Mick:

And I've got this campaign to end loneliness and they made this ad campaign

Mick:

and one of the ads I had to laugh because it was made in like 2018 and it

Mick:

had a guy who was about 30 and they put him in his apartment alone for a week.

Mick:

By himself without having, without being able to go out and meet people,

Mick:

which in 2018 was quite novel, you know, and I was watching it going, if

Mick:

only you knew what was about to happen.

Mick:

But they put him in an apartment alone for a week.

Mick:

They didn't, they took his technology away.

Mick:

So that was the difference between him and COVID obviously.

Mick:

But for day one, he was like, Oh, this is quite nice.

Mick:

I'm not working.

Mick:

And I know I'm still getting paid.

Mick:

And day two, he was like, Oh, this is good.

Mick:

I've watched a few DVDs and dah, dah, dah.

Mick:

By day three, he was feeling lonely.

Mick:

And by day four, he was in tears.

Nettie:

That's

Mick:

right.

Mick:

And he was recording himself.

Mick:

Cause he told him to video himself.

Mick:

He was crying.

Mick:

He was just beside himself.

Nettie:

Absolutely.

Nettie:

And a lot of those, yeah.

Nettie:

A lot of those.

Nettie:

Those research experiments have had to be stopped because of the distress.

Mick:

Yeah.

Mick:

The cool thing about this was at the end of the week, because he lived in

Mick:

a big apartment building, at the end of the week, the first thing they got

Mick:

him to do was to go visit an 80 year old man whose wife died 10 years ago

Mick:

in his apartment building and talk about how hard he found the week.

Mick:

And the 80 year old man was like, that's a pretty common week for me.

Mick:

Wow.

Mick:

And they chatted and they connected.

Nettie:

Wow.

Nettie:

Yeah.

Nettie:

That's amazing.

Nettie:

Yeah.

Mick:

It's quite touching, actually.

Nettie:

Yeah.

Mick:

Yeah.

Nettie:

Solitary confinement is

Mick:

The worst.

Nettie:

The worst.

Nettie:

Like the worst

Mick:

punishment you can get in prison.

Mick:

And

Nettie:

people will kill themselves.

Nettie:

Yeah.

Nettie:

Rather than endure solitary.

VO:

Yeah.

Nettie:

Not everybody, of course, but, but a lot of people kill

Nettie:

themselves in solitary confinement.

Mick:

Do you know a lot about the kind of physiological effects of loneliness?

Nettie:

Well, only in as much as that, that the release of stress

Nettie:

hormones has a wide ranging effect on our physical bodies, in particular,

Nettie:

the impact on our immune systems.

Nettie:

So it compromises our immune response, which means that we

Nettie:

don't fight disease as a disease.

Nettie:

efficiently or as readily as we might otherwise, that we

Nettie:

don't recover, we succumb more to viruses and stuff like that.

Nettie:

And interestingly, because that stress response is all

Nettie:

good and well, in short bursts.

Nettie:

But when that is prolonged or repeated, that's when you start seeing

Nettie:

some of those longer term effects.

Nettie:

So we see higher rates of heart disease and blood pressure problems and cancer

Nettie:

and all sorts for people who have a higher rates of social disconnection.

Mick:

Wow.

Nettie:

People who are well connected socially live longer.

Nettie:

And fight disease more effectively when we're sick actually what we

Nettie:

need is Companionship and people to be close to us taking care of us.

Nettie:

It's a why People fall in love with their nurses

Nettie:

One of the reasons perhaps but but there's something about that that

Nettie:

physical and emotional Connection that builds resilience, both physical

Nettie:

and emotional and psychological.

Nettie:

It's really powerful.

Nettie:

It's really, really, really bad for us to be alone.

Mick:

And really, really, really good for us to be connected.

Mick:

Yes.

Mick:

Here's Suze again, talking about how that deep, simmering sense of

Mick:

loneliness bubbled to the surface during certain life events.

Sooz:

Things like marriage breakups, and with it, with

Sooz:

that comes a loss of friends.

Sooz:

Who you think are your people don't turn out to be your people.

Sooz:

Because you've invested so much time in these people and then they, they're gone.

Sooz:

Which can, for someone like me, who had heaps of friends, and very

Sooz:

social, and blah blah blah, all of a sudden, it was a very small circle.

Sooz:

And actually, that was part of it, me being okay with that too.

Sooz:

Having less friends.

Sooz:

Having less, yeah.

Sooz:

Not being the most popular person in the room anymore.

Sooz:

And being okay with that.

Sooz:

And

Mick:

did you find your people?

Sooz:

Yeah.

Mick:

Good people.

Sooz:

Great people.

Sooz:

Great people.

Mick:

Let's go back to Drew again.

Mick:

And the battle still rages between his deep desire to connect

Mick:

with people and be fully known.

Mick:

And that inner voice that says he's inherently defective.

Drew:

Deep down, man, there's something off about you.

Drew:

And almost like the self protective mechanism that I bought into was

Drew:

like, I got to protect, like, because when they realize what whatever

Drew:

it is, that's repulsive about you.

Drew:

That's really gonna hurt.

Drew:

So I got to protect you from this.

Drew:

So we can't like, so it helped me moderate my experience, I guess, in some sad sense

Drew:

of like, okay, that's why I have to stay.

Drew:

I mean, you could come visit my island and, you know, I'll cook

Drew:

you a picnic lunch or whatever.

Drew:

But, but, you know, then you got to go like, because the fog's going to

Drew:

come in and darkness is going to come.

Drew:

So you got to get out of here.

Drew:

Because once you see what this island really looks like, you're

Drew:

not going to want to be here.

Drew:

Wow.

Mick:

So where to from there?

Mick:

I'm all in.

Drew:

Whew.

Drew:

I mean, yeah, so I kind of, that was kind of the end of my alcohol use

Drew:

because it was like, uh, I kind of attributed a lot of where I had gotten

Drew:

and, and how alone I was to just to, that I was lost in alcoholism.

Drew:

And I was like, okay, well, if I just stop using alcohol and not use any

Drew:

other drugs and just figure out a way to stay abstinent from those things.

Drew:

Then I'm going to be fine.

Drew:

And for a time, that was kind of actually true.

Drew:

Like, like I used to 12 step program and I stopped drinking and I was

Drew:

going, I was working in therapy.

Drew:

So it was like, I was kind of touching on some of this stuff.

Drew:

But not the fact that I was fully bought in deep down to

Drew:

this way of viewing the world.

Drew:

And so, uh, my life on the surface started to get better.

Drew:

And even like in, on the middle level, like my relationships with some of my

Drew:

siblings and, and people in my life and my relationship at work and my creative

Drew:

pursuits, I just had a lot more capacity.

Drew:

To be present and to do stuff.

Drew:

And I was taking better care of myself physically, but it was still like this

Drew:

idea that I was running from something like at some point, some part of my

Drew:

brain was like, this is pointless.

Drew:

Like you're just, you're just participating in a play like, like,

Drew:

uh, You're, you're trying to connect with these people and you're trying to

Drew:

do these actions that, uh, connect you with them or be a service or go have fun

Drew:

with people or listen or talk, but deep down this other thing's still there.

Drew:

And I had to like, without drugs or alcohol, like isolate myself yet again,

Drew:

like to where the point where, like, I was like, okay, I could like reach

Drew:

out to some people I know for help and tell my therapist what's going on.

Drew:

I can start using alcohol again, which for me would have been a slow

Drew:

death, or it could have been a quick death, or I could take my life.

Drew:

And it was kind of like just the idea of like making a pros and cons

Drew:

list of that, it's like pretty bad.

Drew:

It's like, dude, you're going to make a pros and cons list about, uh,

Drew:

you could just call somebody or text them and say, Hey, I need to talk.

Drew:

I'm, I'm in trouble, uh, versus these other options, which are pretty bleak,

Drew:

uh, and permanent, and there's no going back, uh, and that kind of shook me again.

Drew:

So it shook me again to reach out to people and to connect, I had to like

Drew:

start reconnecting with people and then the pandemic hit and it was like,

Drew:

actually in the depths of the pandemic where I found my way out of love

VO:

latest, it

Drew:

was just so crazy.

Drew:

Like, uh, as a pandemic hit, I just had kind of tried to be

Drew:

like, let me return to the world.

Drew:

And, um, part of staying sober during the pandemic was going to 12 7

Drew:

meetings on Zoom and connecting with a lot of these people and a lot of

Drew:

these people seem to have a way to live their life that I connect with.

Drew:

And that part of me was still like, no, but not for you.

Drew:

And I'm like, but why, what, that doesn't make any sense.

Drew:

It goes against what everybody's talking about.

Drew:

And it was like, yeah, but it's hopeless for you.

Drew:

And that was where I was finally willing to tell somebody where it was like, I

Drew:

told another guy that I had met, like, He was like, Hey, like, you, I know

Drew:

you talk about like, everything's okay.

Drew:

And, and he goes, and, and it seems like you probably got your life

Drew:

together, but if you ever don't just let me know, like, I'm here to listen.

Drew:

And I, and I was just like, that was the final crack for me was that guy.

Drew:

Like he just said.

Drew:

Hey, just give me a call.

Drew:

And I, I called him, I said, listen, man, I'm, I feel like I'm living a lie,

Drew:

but not like a cool lie or like, not like a lie, like a flashy lie, like a,

Drew:

a lie of like some baffling insanity.

Drew:

And I kind of told him, I'm like, you know, I hear all this stuff and I'm

Drew:

trying to do all this stuff, but I still feel like none of this being a human

Drew:

or being a mammal or, or connecting with other people's ever going to work.

Drew:

There's something.

Drew:

And he didn't really tell me an answer.

Drew:

He just said, listen, listen, listen to me.

Drew:

But it was something about acknowledging, like, I don't want to

Drew:

believe that this is true anymore.

Drew:

That, that kind of set me on the path of like, well, if you don't want to

Drew:

believe this is true, then what are you actually going to do about it?

Drew:

It just made me aware of how much my fear of it being true.

Drew:

Kept me from actually even testing out.

Drew:

Is this true?

Drew:

Like I guess if I could go back in time again It'd be like hey, why don't

Drew:

you test out and see if it's true?

Drew:

I would have been like no way man.

Drew:

Like i'm not testing this out like kind of like a roller coaster Or a haunted house.

Drew:

It's like, I used to be afraid of those as a kid and my younger

Drew:

brother would have to go first.

Drew:

He'd go on the rollercoaster and he'd get off and that he survived.

Drew:

This is the kind of brother I am.

Drew:

Oh, you're alive.

Drew:

Okay.

Drew:

Now I'll go on it.

Drew:

Like, uh, like I was like, all right, now I've seen you survived

Drew:

and weren't killed, I'll go on it.

Drew:

Like, uh, and it was kind of like that idea.

Drew:

It's like, uh, why don't you go and test some of these ideas out in world?

Drew:

See if they, how have they worked out for you and see if they're really true.

Drew:

Like, I know you're afraid to test it out.

Drew:

But why don't you see if you're really the lone wolf mammal that

Drew:

you claim to be on the inside, that you don't need human connection and

Drew:

that it's not possible for you, why don't, why don't you test that out?

Drew:

And I would love it was a switch that was flicked and changed on me.

Drew:

Unfortunately, it's something I've learned.

Drew:

I got to do it every, every day.

Drew:

Uh, I didn't get super avoidant about this interview, but there's some part of

Drew:

oh yeah, you can't go on there and talk about this kind of, oh no, you get, it's

Drew:

like, okay, is that really that much terrifying or that dangerous or that

Drew:

threatening, or is it just going to be like outside of your comfort zone, and

Drew:

why don't you see what's on the other side of it and see what happens, and maybe

Drew:

somebody else That feels this kind of pain can relate to it and realize that it

Drew:

is that you don't have to live that way.

Drew:

Yeah.

Mick:

So Drew started testing out whether his deep sense of being

Mick:

fundamentally flawed was actually true.

Mick:

And we'll come back to him soon to see how that went.

Mick:

But first, let's head back to Nettie talking about whether there's a link

Mick:

between loneliness and depression.

Nettie:

It's an interesting one because it's like a bit of a circular loop.

Nettie:

You know, when I feel lonely.

Nettie:

I'm more likely to start feeling sad about being lonely and, and that can spiral.

Nettie:

So loneliness isn't obviously the same as depression, but it's quite similar.

Nettie:

interrelated.

Nettie:

And of course, then when we're depressed, we tend to become more isolated and

Nettie:

we tend to expect people to reject us.

Nettie:

And so we isolate ourselves even more.

Nettie:

And so we get more lonely and it becomes this, this spiral.

Nettie:

It's known that social isolation has a really detrimental impact

Nettie:

on our mental health, anxiety, and depression and stress.

Mick:

are certain types of interactions more likely to

Mick:

alleviate loneliness than others?

Nettie:

I mean, that's an interesting thing, because sometimes we

Nettie:

need just the mundane, right?

Nettie:

Not everything has to be a deep and meaningful, intense,

Nettie:

authentic interaction.

Nettie:

In fact, I was, I did hear this really, what I thought was quite a beautiful quote

Nettie:

from somebody, and don't ask me where it came from, because I can't remember, but

Nettie:

it was a woman who'd lost her husband.

Nettie:

an elderly woman, they'd been together for a really long time.

Nettie:

She had wonderful social support and she said, I have lots

Nettie:

of people to do things with.

Nettie:

I have nobody I can do nothing with.

Mick:

Oh, wow.

Mick:

Yeah, that's nice.

Nettie:

Which is beautiful, isn't it?

Nettie:

But that sense of it doesn't always, it's not always about that

Nettie:

deep dive into something profound.

Nettie:

Sometimes there's something about just The being with the other in whatever

Nettie:

that day to day experience is like.

Mick:

Yeah, and I, you know, to this day one thing I like about going back

Mick:

to my family home or you know, where my parents live is that you can just put

Mick:

your track pants on, lie on the couch, eat half a tub of ice cream, say nothing,

Mick:

and it's absolutely fine, you know?

Nettie:

Yes, you can just exist and share that space with another.

Nettie:

The nice thing about those experiences is that they're not pretense.

Nettie:

And I think that when we feel that we have to pretend and we have to be

Nettie:

something other than what we are in order to get the social connection that we

Nettie:

crave, that's ultimately unsatisfying.

Nettie:

So when we can have any kind of experience where we get to be our authentic self,

Nettie:

where we get to be true, when we don't have to pretend and put on our, our false.

Nettie:

self in order to feel like we're going to be loved and accepted.

Nettie:

Any of those kinds of experiences are what is what's going to enhance our well being.

Nettie:

I was thinking about even your and my connection.

Nettie:

We sit here and we talk about things that are absolutely fascinating to both of us.

Nettie:

We don't necessarily talk about ourselves all that much, but

Nettie:

we're talking about stuff.

Nettie:

We share an interest and we share a passion Which is a meaningful

Nettie:

connection We don't necessarily delve into our personal stories

Nettie:

around that very often But

Mick:

when you know like when you invited me to have dinner I'm going

Mick:

to have dinner with you and Dave.

Mick:

It felt completely natural.

Mick:

I felt

Nettie:

like

Mick:

I was catching up with a

Nettie:

friend, even though we don't talk about our lives.

Nettie:

And then you kind of go, man, I actually don't know that much about

Nettie:

you at all, but I still feel connected because we've had some really

Nettie:

meaningful, valuable conversations that have felt authentic and true.

Mick:

As well as that, there must also be a need to, if I'm going through

Mick:

something, if something's hard for me.

Nettie:

Yeah.

Mick:

I must need to be able to share that as well.

Mick:

Yeah.

Nettie:

What we, what is good for us in terms of our whole wellbeing is that if

Nettie:

we have at least somewhere where we can be deeply known, I mean, that's the most

Nettie:

secure Place to be it's also the most risky because we're the most invulnerable.

Mick:

Yeah

Mick:

In Researching this I came across a concept I hadn't heard of before in

Mick:

relation to loneliness and it's this idea of skin hunger Have you heard of this?

Nettie:

Well, yeah, but we call it.

Nettie:

What's it called?

Mick:

You got some flash psychological.

Mick:

Oh, it's not all

Nettie:

that flash It's it's uh

Mick:

Tactile

Nettie:

deprivation, touch deprivation.

Nettie:

All

Mick:

right.

Mick:

Well, yeah, that's got to be the same thing.

Mick:

Yeah, yeah,

Nettie:

it is.

Nettie:

It is.

Nettie:

It's the same thing.

Nettie:

So skin hunger refers to that longing to be touched.

Nettie:

And touch is Perhaps the most it's it's that sensory connection.

Nettie:

You know, we connect with each other on a real on a very primitive Sensory

Nettie:

level and touch is a fundamental aspect of that kind of primitive

Mick:

So we need it.

Nettie:

We do.

Nettie:

We do.

Nettie:

In fact,

Mick:

Can it just be, G'day mate.

Mick:

G'day mate.

Mick:

Give you a hug, mate.

Nettie:

Well, that's, that's part of it.

Nettie:

It doesn't have to, it might not need to be more than that.

Mick:

Right.

Nettie:

But physical touch is really powerful.

Nettie:

And, and interestingly enough, I mean, when you, These days, when you have

Nettie:

a baby, priority is given to that skin and skin contact, and we know

Nettie:

that that physical touch stimulates the neurotransmitter oxytocin,

Nettie:

which is called the love hormone.

Nettie:

And when oxytocin is released, it enhances our openness to love.

Nettie:

to human connection.

Nettie:

So it's really powerful.

Nettie:

It's primal.

Nettie:

It kind of speaks to the, the primitive nature of our need

Mick:

to connect.

Mick:

While you were talking, I had like a half smile because Again, in my research, I

Mick:

saw that there's something I hadn't heard of before, which is a cuddle therapist.

Nettie:

Yes, there is.

Nettie:

You know about this, do you?

Nettie:

Yeah.

Nettie:

I don't know much about cuddle therapists, but I know there are

Mick:

such things.

Mick:

Great

Nettie:

job.

Nettie:

I know that there are such things.

Nettie:

Yeah.

Mick:

So you pay someone to just To cuddle

Nettie:

you.

Mick:

Wow.

Mick:

Yeah.

Mick:

That's gotta be awkward.

Nettie:

Well, you can pay for all sorts of things these days, can't you?

Nettie:

But it says something though, doesn't it?

Nettie:

About, this is a need.

Mick:

Mm.

Nettie:

That is being neglected.

Nettie:

And, you know, for some of, for some people who live alone, that's part

Nettie:

of the importance of pets, having a, a cat or a dog or, or a pet that you

Nettie:

can stroke and touch and who's, who is physically connected to you can, can be

Nettie:

really valuable and be really nourishing.

Mick:

Did you find that deep feeling of loneliness had an effect on you

Mick:

physically, on your body, on your health?

Sooz:

Yes.

Sooz:

100 percent I did.

Sooz:

I felt like I wasn't sleeping well.

Sooz:

I'd wake through the night a lot.

Sooz:

I didn't want to exercise.

Sooz:

I just felt Lonely and sad.

Sooz:

I just wanted to stay at home with a packet of chips and a bottle

Sooz:

of wine and drink it and eat it.

Sooz:

Which is a very bad pattern to form unless you kind of click out of that eventually.

Sooz:

But yeah, it's hard to look, to really look after yourself

Sooz:

when you're not feeling great.

Sooz:

But, you know, again, luckily for me, naturally I'm a, I'm an active person.

Sooz:

I love running, I live, I have a horse, so that forces me to be outside.

Sooz:

I live at the beach, I have a dog that I've got to run every day.

Sooz:

So, naturally I get a lot from being in the outdoors and, and

Sooz:

moving my body and, and letting the endorphins flow, flow again.

Mick:

Here's Drew again, and we're picking up from when he's hit rock

Mick:

bottom, finally shared this feeling of being defective with a friend, and

Mick:

he's even started to put this negative belief about himself to the test.

Drew:

I mean, I realized, like, how wrong I was, and I'm not necessarily cured.

Drew:

I mean, I'm hoping, like, some things get easier.

Drew:

But like the idea of like, uh, walking up to somebody like you're at the

Drew:

farmer's market or something and just saying, Hey, like complimenting them.

Drew:

Uh, that's a f like a fear of mine would be I, I'm just there to

Drew:

get vegetables and get home, man.

Drew:

Like, I don't need to talk to, I don't need to talk.

Drew:

No, no.

Drew:

I don't need to talk about how my day's going.

Drew:

Yeah.

Drew:

I don't need, I just want some

Mick:

bok cho and some asparagus and I'm outta here.

Drew:

Right?

Drew:

Like, like I'm out here to make friends even though I

Drew:

could probably use some more.

Drew:

So going against it and be like, okay, why don't you go and say hi to some people?

Drew:

If you see something nice, compliment the people, ask a question.

Drew:

And then some part of me is like, cool.

Drew:

I get to test out some fears like a little kid, but most part of me is like, Oh

Drew:

boy, he putting us through this again.

Drew:

But as soon as I do, it's like, Oh man, those are the best looking

Drew:

strawberry I've ever seen in my life.

Drew:

And they say, Oh, well, these are special strawberries.

Drew:

And I say, Oh wow.

Drew:

It's so interesting.

Drew:

Like, uh, and you could see the smile on their face and the smile

Drew:

on your face and it feels good now.

Drew:

Just like we're recording this for some reason, my brain never hits record

Drew:

on any of this stuff the next day.

Drew:

It's always like, Oh, you can't, you're going to talk to

Drew:

people at the farmer's market.

Drew:

What do you loon?

Drew:

I mean, much like meditation and other stuff.

Drew:

It is like a practice, I guess, for me, at least.

Mick:

And what's it been like for you finding more connection

Mick:

with people than before?

Drew:

There's like a forlorn sadness there of like, wow, what did you miss out on

Drew:

or how sad that this kid or this younger part of me was deprived from all this.

Drew:

But that actually creates more sense of responsibility to it's like, okay, well.

Drew:

I really shouldn't keep this up or like on these daily choices we're talking

Drew:

about like that my choice has some weight if I'm going to avoid people

Drew:

or avoid these chances to connect with people or avoid kind of being

Drew:

uncomfortable or facing my fears.

Drew:

There's a cost, and there's a cost of pain in the past, and I have to remember that.

Drew:

Um, but it feels good.

Mick:

As she said earlier, one of the ways that Suze found her way

Mick:

out of that lonely and dark space was to give herself pep talks.

Mick:

And here's some of the things she would say to herself.

Mick:

Not everyone

Sooz:

is going to like you.

Sooz:

And that's okay.

Sooz:

Get up, start with going for a walk, start with picking up

Sooz:

the phone, talking to someone.

Sooz:

Not necessarily talking to them and going, Hey, I'm feeling really lonely.

Sooz:

You want to hang out and we chat?

Sooz:

Just, just talk to them.

Sooz:

Just ask them about what they're up to today.

Sooz:

Just get, just have other people in your mind.

Sooz:

Shift your focus.

Sooz:

Taking out the DJ thing was really good because it gave me

Sooz:

something else to think about.

Sooz:

Having something to do that I could do on my own that brought me joy.

Sooz:

Trying to reprogram the lonely with joy.

Sooz:

And the joy not being because you're filling it with people, bringing

Sooz:

yourself joy, making yourself happy, making yourself liked,

Mick:

liked by you,

Sooz:

liked by you.

Sooz:

And if we can't get along with ourselves, it's very difficult

Sooz:

to get along with other people.

Mick:

I've noticed in preparing for this and talking to friends and stuff

Mick:

that, and I didn't really see this coming necessarily, but it's actually

Mick:

really hard for people to admit.

Mick:

that they're lonely.

Mick:

Why do you think that is?

Nettie:

Yeah, it is interesting because if we're not ashamed of saying I'm hungry,

Nettie:

why are we ashamed of saying I'm lonely?

Nettie:

And I think it's because we'll often attribute our loneliness to there being

Nettie:

some sort of deficit in ourselves.

Mick:

Something wrong with us.

Nettie:

Something wrong with us.

Nettie:

I think that it's, it's also, I mean, loneliness is, is also, it may or

Nettie:

may not be due to rejection, but we certainly feel it as a rejection.

Nettie:

And if I'm being rejected, there's something deficient in me.

Nettie:

There's something to be ashamed of.

Nettie:

There's something that I should hide.

Nettie:

My loneliness is somehow my fault and it indicates that I'm

Mick:

not good enough.

Mick:

Yeah, that's sad.

Mick:

What would be an overall kind of message you might want to give

Mick:

someone who's feeling lonely, longs for deeper connections in their

Mick:

lives, longs for those relationships where they feel seen and understood?

Mick:

What would you say to someone in that position?

Nettie:

The tricky thing about loneliness is that it's one of those problems

Nettie:

that we actually can't solve ourselves.

Nettie:

We actually need other people, and we actually need to rely on other people

Nettie:

for that, but also we can't make somebody else accept us and make space for us.

Nettie:

All we can do is Choose how we are going to be, how we're going

Nettie:

to engage and interact with other people, how we're going to create a

Nettie:

space that's conducive to connection.

Nettie:

And what is actually quite interesting is that when we give our time and

Nettie:

attention to the needs of other people, our own negative internal

Nettie:

emotional burdens tend to recede.

Mick:

I did read that And that struck me as well and it really stood out

Mick:

to me is that one of the so called cures for loneliness is helping.

Nettie:

Helping, absolutely.

Nettie:

To take your preoccupation and your anxiety about your own self

Nettie:

and put that aside and give your attention to the other person.

Nettie:

Be to them what it is that every human being needs.

Nettie:

And that has a big impact on how we then feel internally ourselves.

Mick:

So, a good starting point could be to be for someone what

Mick:

you want others to be for you.

Mick:

Yeah.

Nettie:

Be a friend.

Nettie:

Volunteer.

Nettie:

Give.

Mick:

Listen.

Nettie:

Absolutely.

Drew:

What's

Mick:

your

Drew:

relationship with loneliness like now?

Drew:

I mean, there's a little bit part of me that's afraid of it

Drew:

still, because it's afraid of that sliding into that bottomless pit,

Drew:

uh, and like, what if I can't get out or what if I just keep going?

Drew:

Or what if I stay up all night worrying?

Drew:

And when you say afraid

Mick:

of it, are you saying afraid of being alone or afraid of loneliness?

Drew:

Afraid of the loneliness.

Drew:

Like, um, but I guess now I'm afraid of being alone too.

Drew:

I guess.

Drew:

So maybe that's, that's what the difference is, is like loneliness.

Drew:

Now I'm kind of seeing it as a feeling that comes and goes during the day.

Drew:

Like, like, like the waves is like, okay, there's some big waves

Drew:

today and they're really crashing.

Drew:

And sometimes at night.

Drew:

That loneliness and that darkness is just going to creep in because

Drew:

it's kind of part of who I am But the being alone, which is the truth.

Drew:

The loneliness is kind of just a feeling and a thought or a mis Representation

Drew:

of reality but being alone is something I can choose Or I can see it as a

Drew:

choice because it's like if i'm at a party or a convention or wherever

Drew:

a group of people And i'm introvert.

Drew:

It's like, okay.

Drew:

I just got to stand over here and nobody wants to talk to me And it's

Drew:

like, okay, dude, like But you, there's other people that feel uncomfortable.

Drew:

Why don't you try to make them feel welcome?

Drew:

Or, well, you know, try one of these games that they teach introverts.

Drew:

Uh, hell no, no, no, no, no.

Drew:

But it's like, that's a choice, right?

Drew:

I can avoid, avoid it and be lonely.

Drew:

Then it's like, okay, well, I'm the only one standing here.

Drew:

Oh, poor me.

Drew:

And I mean, that's, those are legitimate feelings, but

Drew:

it's like, for me, it's like.

Drew:

There's also a part of me now that some of the time, not all

Drew:

the time knows I'm choosing that.

Drew:

And it's like, well, you could make a different choice.

Drew:

I realized it's scary to go talk to those people because they're in a group

Drew:

and they look all smooth and whatever.

Drew:

But you could try and you could see how it goes, like finding

Drew:

people you genuinely connect with.

Drew:

And it might be over music.

Drew:

It might be over like a shared experience.

Drew:

It might be people you just have fun with and you're easy to be around where

Drew:

you feel like you can be yourself.

Drew:

But it's like, uh, finding those, uh, adult relationships, uh, and family

Drew:

relationships too, where it's like, we're really connecting over something.

Drew:

And if we're not connecting over everything, that's fine too.

Drew:

So it's given me a new curiosity, I think, and that kind of

Drew:

drives the connection too.

Drew:

Cause it's like, Hey, I want to know you better.

Drew:

Like even you're like, we were talking earlier.

Drew:

It's like, Oh man, like what, what's it like for you to make your podcast?

Drew:

Like, what's that feel like?

Drew:

Like, like it's like, and that's what draws feels like the thread that I was

Drew:

missing where it's like, now you can go deeper because you're both pulling at

Drew:

threads versus like, I'm just a rock.

Drew:

You got to get off this island fast.

Drew:

And

Mick:

it sounds like part of the transition that happened for you is,

Mick:

is that you moved from being kind of deeply self focused to actually

Mick:

being curious about other people and putting your focus on other people.

Drew:

Right, right.

Drew:

Yeah.

Drew:

Like there's a saying, like your fire hose is either pointed

Drew:

outward or at your own face.

Drew:

And my fire hose is always pointed at my face, man.

Drew:

It was like, uh, and yeah, just obsessed with like my own thoughts and

Drew:

my own safety and my own well being and yeah, in some sense, really in a

Drew:

dehumanizing way for other people of like, I saw people as like threats.

Drew:

Or obstacles or stuff.

Drew:

And that's not a really fulfilling way to live for anybody that

Drew:

you're not terminally unique.

Drew:

Like they got their own struggles.

Drew:

They have a whole full life behind them too.

Mick:

And do you have one or two people in your life who really

Mick:

know you and really get you?

Mick:

And what's that like if you do,

Drew:

I mean, I think for me, like, whether it's these, the, the guys

Drew:

that I work with or the people in my life for these people, I can

Drew:

really talk to about anything.

Drew:

It goes back to that proof that none of this is true, that it was

Drew:

all this imagined thing that like, you really can be yourself and

Drew:

there really is a richness to that.

Drew:

And there's a richness to other people.

Drew:

You just have to get past that guardedness and, and that terror

Drew:

that, that you're gonna be deemed repulsive and, and that you're gonna

Drew:

be rejected or cast out, uh, forever.

Drew:

I mean, even though, yeah, we talk about kind of trite sayings,

Drew:

but it's like you are enough.

Drew:

Like, like if people are listening, it's a pretty common feeling to feel

Drew:

like you're not enough and that you are gonna be rejected or, or thrown out.

Drew:

But that's a normal fear.

Drew:

But, but the idea is that you really are enough, like, uh, and

Drew:

everybody has a lot to offer.

Drew:

And it's kind of that idea that reinforces it.

Drew:

I think having these healthy relationships that it's like,

Drew:

okay, I could be here for you.

Drew:

You could be here for me.

Drew:

Oh, you can't be here for me.

Drew:

Okay.

Drew:

That's totally cool.

Drew:

Like, cause I know somebody else that can be right now.

Drew:

Like, yeah.

Mick:

And how are things now?

Sooz:

Things are okay.

Sooz:

Yeah, it's okay.

Sooz:

It's not.

Sooz:

I'm still on a journey, you know, and I don't have it sorted.

Sooz:

What?

Sooz:

Who does?

Sooz:

What?

Sooz:

What do you mean?

Sooz:

But, I've certainly given myself the best shot I can.

Mick:

What do you do now if you feel that loneliness threatening to

Sooz:

Creep in.

Mick:

Mm hmm.

Sooz:

I go out for a walk or a run.

Sooz:

I put some music on.

Sooz:

One thing I did get into a habit of doing, which I found was really,

Sooz:

really good in shifting mindset, was writing down three things, or thinking

Sooz:

about three things I was grateful for.

Sooz:

Whether it be birds singing outside in the morning, a hot cup of tea, a

Sooz:

warm fire, just every day thinking about three things to be grateful

Sooz:

for, and it shifts your mindset.

Sooz:

It starts you operating from a place of gratitude and gratefulness.

Sooz:

And it stops you thinking, what's wrong with me?

Sooz:

Hmm.

Sooz:

It starts you thinking about what's great.

Mick:

What about you?

Mick:

What do you say to yourself these days?

Sooz:

Suze, you're looking fine this morning, hey!

Sooz:

Smoking!

Sooz:

Smoking!

Sooz:

Yeah!

Sooz:

Wish I was your guy.

Sooz:

What do I say to myself these days?

Sooz:

I say, you've got this.

Sooz:

You've got this.

Sooz:

It will be okay.

Sooz:

Be grateful.

Sooz:

Celebrate the small things.

Sooz:

Keep walking.

Sooz:

Keep trying.

Sooz:

Keep connecting.

Sooz:

Don't be afraid to connect with people because it hasn't worked before.

Sooz:

Take that risk.

Sooz:

Take a risk.

Sooz:

And sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't.

Sooz:

But, keep going, and when you can't keep going, pick up the phone and put people

Sooz:

in your life that can help you keep going.

Sooz:

Nobody's ever going to say, I don't want to help you, loser.

Mick:

Go look for another herd.

Sooz:

Yeah, yeah, you old stallion with no game.

Sooz:

Yeah.

Sooz:

Find the people that you can be safe with being vulnerable with and be vulnerable.

Mick:

It's good.

Sooz:

It's terrifying.

Sooz:

But loneliness sucks, man.

Sooz:

It effing sucks.

Sooz:

But I can look at it now and go, I recognize you.

Sooz:

You little, uh,

Mick:

rapscallion.

Sooz:

Yeah, here we go again.

Sooz:

You knocking at my door.

Mick:

Punk.

Sooz:

Yeah, I know how to deal with you, I think.

Sooz:

And if I don't, at least I've got more tools this time round

Sooz:

than I did last time round.

Sooz:

I'm starting to pick up the tools to help me with that little life battle.

Mick:

Oh, that's such, um, such insightful stuff.

Mick:

As far as what I would like people to hear, you know?

Sooz:

Well, I kind of, I was terrified, actually.

Sooz:

When you, when you put out the, you know, Kool Duams, so to speak, I was like, oh my

Sooz:

god, shit yeah, I know what that's like.

Sooz:

And it just, I kind of just, Did I just kind of contacted

Sooz:

you and then after contact you, I was like, what have you done?

Sooz:

No, terrifying bed.

Sooz:

And I had to give myself a pep talk driving here today.

Sooz:

It's like, come on, be brave.

Sooz:

It's really scary.

Sooz:

But if your experience can be, can, can be someone's survival guide.

Sooz:

Then you owe it to them to be brave, because it takes a village, doesn't it?

Sooz:

And we need help.

Sooz:

And we need.

Sooz:

People being honest and

Mick:

Yeah, I really genuinely really admire that.

Mick:

I don't know if I would have that level of courage to sit where you are and,

Mick:

and, and be as open as you've been.

Mick:

On that note, let me ask you what I tend to ask everyone.

Mick:

If someone's listening to this and right now they're feeling really lonely, like

Mick:

what would you want to say to them?

Sooz:

I would say Yes, you're feeling lonely but you can take some steps to not

Sooz:

feel so alone and This feeling will not last forever It really won't but you have

Sooz:

to be a little bit brave and A little bit vulnerable and it will be okay to be

Sooz:

brave and vulnerable It will work out for you Go and have a walk in the fresh air

Sooz:

Write things you're grateful for, reach out to someone, do something for someone

Sooz:

and then tell them why you're doing it.

Sooz:

And life will start to change.

Sooz:

It will start to change.

Mick:

And any particular steps as far as finding the connection that they long for?

Sooz:

What do you know about Tinder?

Mick:

Sign up.

Sooz:

Swipe left.

Mick:

I've got some great filters.

Sooz:

Oh yeah, let's sort that profile out for you, shall I help you?

Sooz:

Right, three photos, what's your best ones?

Sooz:

The first step starts right there in the loneliness with you alone.

Sooz:

It starts with you saying things to yourself, positive things to yourself.

Sooz:

Start changing the narrative a little bit.

Sooz:

Um, hopefully there'll be one person that you can trust and just say, Hey,

Sooz:

I'm feeling a bit isolated and whilst I don't necessarily know how to talk

Sooz:

about it or what to talk about, it'd just be really great to go for a walk.

Sooz:

Find those people that you can make connections with.

Sooz:

They don't have to be a penguin on an island.

Sooz:

You don't have to be a penguin on an island.

Mick:

A big thanks to Suze and Drew for being so open and willing

Mick:

to share their stories with us.

Mick:

And to Nettie for generously giving up her time.

Mick:

If this episode has brought anything up for you, and you want to talk to

Mick:

someone, No matter where you are in the world, you can go to helpguide.

Mick:

org to find your local helplines.

Mick:

And if you're in Aotearoa, New Zealand, you can call 1737 at

Mick:

any time of the day or night.

Mick:

It would be really great if you could help make the next episode

Mick:

of Are You Mental possible.

Mick:

To make a contribution, go to iumental.

Mick:

com and click on the donate button.

Mick:

To drop me a line with any feedback or anything else, my email is

Mick:

mick, that's m i c k, at iumental.

Mick:

com.

Mick:

And our Instagram is at iumentalpodcast.

Mick:

If you'd like to be lulled into slumber by Drew's dulcet tones, then

Mick:

check out his podcast, Sleep With Me, wherever you get your podcasts.

Mick:

A big thank you to the team at Lovett Media for all their work and support.

Mick:

Make sure you follow the podcast on your podcast app.

Mick:

If you're on Apple Podcasts, for example, that involves

Mick:

hitting the plus sign at the top.

Mick:

Please share this episode with anyone you think will get something out of it.

Mick:

Give us a five star rating.

Mick:

And if you really want to help us get this to the world, write

Mick:

a review on your podcast app.

Mick:

See you back here soon for another episode, and until

Mick:

then, have a mental week.

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube