Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 11 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here. 

In this episode you'll hear Andréa Watts talking about the messy process of writing a book - and how her Collage Coaching Technique really helped her to get unstuck. Andrea uses collage to help people look inside and surface what's going on for them and how it might be impacting on their behaviour. Her book is called Collage as a Creative Coaching Tool - A comprehensive resource for coaches and psychologists. You'll hear all about the book - from the first sentence to the whole writing process and how she stayed motivated during the darker times. Andréa is an inspiration - and her passion shines through in the way she talks about her book.

People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about Unlocking Workplace Potential with expert perspectives from Contextual Behavioural Science.

Another first for Season 5 is that I'm adding a transcript, wherever possible. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes, keep scrolling for all the useful links.

• Andréa's website - UnglueYou | Coaching Creatively with Collage
• Here's a direct link to Andréa's book
• Sign up to Andréa's mailing list here
• Connect with Andréa on LinkedIn

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TWO

[00:00:06] Andrea: one of the big things, and I I would like to share this with you or p supers, is that when I was writing it, I would get stuck. I would write a sentence and then I could not then write the next sentence because I was just completely stuck with this one sentence. And in the end, I recognized that the process was, again, like the college coaching technique. I'm like, Andrea, remember there's this cognitive creativity. And I was like, okay, that part where I want to write and I want it to be right the first time isn't gonna happen. You have to just get the words out there and don't stay wedded to that first sentence.

[00:00:43] Andrea: It's okay to let it go. Just get the words out there and once they're out there, you can then play with them. And I literally would sometimes play with 'em. I'd write like a few, pages and then I would cut it up and I'd sit on the floor and I'd rearrange it, I'd stick it back together, and then I'd type it out again or copy and paste within the document. So it was literally cut and pasting again, for many of the chapters,

[00:01:18] Ross: Andrea, I uses collage to help people look inside and surface what's going on for them. And how it might be impacting on their behavior. Her book is called collage as a creative coaching tool. A comprehensive resource for coaches and psychologists. And this episode, we're here all about the book.

[00:01:40] Ross: And Draya is an inspiration And her passion shines through in the way she talks about her book.

[00:02:08] Ross: Let's just scoot over to the news desk for reviews, RN, for part one of my chat with Andrea.

[00:02:28] Ross: And on Twitter, Jason, David Phillips said. Absolutely loved my taste, a session with Andrea during my time at city university. I still talk about it to colleagues and peers to this day.

[00:02:47] Ross: Thanks to everyone who listened, rated and reviewed, talked about it with a friend, recommended the podcast with your help. We can reach more people with stuff that could be useful.

[00:03:03] Ross: So Andrea, I'd like to start part two with a review of your book, which is called Collage as a Creative Coaching Tool, a comprehensive resource for coaches and psychologists, and there'll be all the details of that in the show notes for this episode. So my review,

[00:03:25] Andrea: No, I'm excited.

[00:03:44] Andrea: Wow.

[00:04:02] Ross: It's beautifully written and includes full color examples of Andrea's own collages, as well as those of her clients which provide powerful and moving insights. I had the privilege to attend a session run by an alumna of Andrea.

[00:04:30] Ross: I thoroughly recommend the book. There's a lot more going on in the coaching room than what's actually going on in the coaching room. Much of what's going on is like the part of the iceberg that's submerged, and Andrea helps coaches reach the parts that other coaches might not reach. Bravo.

[00:04:58] Ross: Well, thank you for writing the book. I've, I've spoken to a few people who've written books and I've even dabbled with the thought of it myself. And honestly, after a bit of dabbling and speaking to, an agent, I backed right off . I thought, oh my gosh, this sounds like such hard work and such a, a, a process that I'm not sure it's for me right now.

[00:05:23] Ross: so tell me about the book. When did you first think, I need to write a book about this

[00:05:50] Andrea: And so I wrote that on sentence and I parked it. Um, I couldn't have written it then anyway when I reflect on it, but, You know, when I started doing the talks and the more and [00:06:00] more I did the talks and the more I learned, the more I practiced, more things were coming out or just reinforcing what I, what I'd already learned.

[00:06:31] Andrea: After chatting to her, I thought, I can, I can do this, I can fill in their form. The form required you to, you know, put what the chapter structure would be, two samples, of a chapter, who your endorsers would be, what would be the key themes. I thought, okay, after talking to her, I can do this. I got off the phone, I went to do it.

[00:07:19] Andrea: It's quite a long process with Route, which I don't know what it's like with other publishers, but then it has to go to, independent reviewers who decide it's not, rather who decide it's independent reviewers decide whether or not they think they should publish it, start to wait for that and. then fortunately they said yes, and then you write it, which, you know, you write it.

[00:07:40] Andrea: But it took me 18 months to write my book. and I remember one day my husband going to me, it's 15 chapters, right? Five per section. My husband's like, what chapter you on? I'm like, 12. He said, oh, that's good. I said, not really, cuz I'm not doing them in order. I didn't know what that's actually a fourth one.

[00:08:19] Andrea: The last chapter's put into practice and in first person again. So, Not that it has to be a sh complete outta structure, the same all the way through.

[00:08:27] Andrea: one of the big things, and I I would like to share this with you or p supers, is that when I was writing it, I would get stuck. I would write a sentence and then I could not then write the next sentence because I was just completely stuck with this one sentence. And in the end, I recognized that the process was, again, like the college coaching technique. I'm like, Andrea, remember there's this cognitive creativity. And I was like, okay, that part where I want to write and I want it to be right the first time isn't gonna happen. You have to just get the words out there and don't stay wedded to that first sentence.

[00:09:04] Andrea: It's okay to let it go. A bit like this image. I don't have to have it on there. I can, I can put it over there. And then I was able to flow more because that bit in the middle, can be messy and feel a bit chaotic and feel a bit outta control almost. because it's not quite right and you are formulating that playing bit with the creating moves that they're shifted there.

[00:10:10] Andrea: They're experiencing what you are experiencing. I'll share that with them. So it's really nice knowing that I could be impacting other authors as well through my experience.

[00:10:23] Andrea: Oh, does it? Maybe because I, I'm, I did this, when I studied, I'm very, I know this about myself. I could be very disciplined, so I would write every day pretty much. And there were chunks where I would block out my diary. I wouldn't suggest this, but I'm, for one time I wrote for nine hours every day for two weeks, and I was completely wiped out and I thought, I'm not doing that again.

[00:11:03] Ross: My goodness.

[00:11:05] Ross: And, and when you were in those inevitable, I guess, sort of darker moments, like, will, will this ever

[00:11:15] The difference it makes

[00:11:35] Andrea: and also I'm a woman of faith and that would give me strength. I just felt like, yeah, you're meant to write this book Andrea, so you can write this book. Um, I had things like you, uh, I have a playlist so I put that on. I never, so I'd have the playlist, I had all these different tools.

[00:12:17] Andrea: I'd send people chapters so I didn't feel that I was doing it well. I had to do all the writing, myself. I knew that there were people in my corner and cheering me on. So, yeah. And I tried to have, time out. So while I was writing me every day, I would still make sure I went for my walk in the woods.

[00:13:18] Andrea: that, yeah, let go. More and more of the more I wrote, I guess.

[00:13:37] Andrea: Hmm. Yeah, it was always gonna be in there. I think the stories are the most powerful thing in there. And some people have fed back because some of 'em are, in this case, studies, you know, like traditionally within coaching, I said this, they said this, I did this. So the coach conversation, but there are like those six or seven, reflections.

[00:14:16] Andrea: Personal experience and the shifts for them. And I think that's incredibly powerful when it's somebody speaking to the reader through the book. And as you said, the collages, I'm, you know, the fact that they're in color, cuz I, I didn't expect them to be, they'd said they would do what they normally do, black and white, and then plates to the back.

[00:14:43] Andrea: a difference.

[00:14:55] Ross: So what other responses have you had to the.

[00:15:19] Andrea: the language that it, that's in there. and if it's all right with you, I've had a really recent review, and I'm really quite proud of this. It's by Jonathan Passmore. He wrote it for the coaching psychologist. And that just one bit I'd, I'd like to share that he wrote,

[00:15:38] Andrea: it says, I was fascinated by the links made to neuroscience and the role that collage can play is a tool to explore the unconscious.

[00:16:08] Andrea: I thought, oh my goodness, because that's what I want to do.

[00:16:10] Andrea: I want to make an impact. I want people to think differently about coaching. Not to say everybody's to use it, obviously, but just to think differently. You know, could I use this? Could I use a different kind of, creative, by creative I mean art based, approach.

[00:16:40] The art and the science

[00:16:50] Andrea: I really wanted that flow of something very personal, very, intuitive? but also with the real strong foundation of the science and theory that underpins it without letting go of the beauty that is creativity as an art based approach, that flow, as I said, that relaxation, that wellbeing, that mindfulness marrying those, they, they, they can sit side by side.

[00:17:22] Ross: Yeah, I think that the, the way it, it naturally progresses feels, feels like you are giving me the scaffolding to, understand, to be, satisfied of the science behind it before you take me onto the next bit. But there's always glimpses of those, those collages from you and your clients that keep the reader going.

[00:18:02] Ross: I would.

[00:18:05] Ross: So, so what's next? What's next for you

[00:18:11] Andrea: ooh.

[00:18:13] Andrea: I do have my plan. yeah. So somebody even asked me this morning, I was like, yes, I've got, I'm gonna be doing this. They said, oh, will you be doing train the train? I'm like, yes. So right now I train other coaches to use it, but what I want to put in place is a route to, certification.

[00:19:05] Andrea: but to use something that's different, to work with a clean language, which is a big part of it. And the other question, techniques, which are different to how you would normally coach cause you're working with images, you need to practice that. And you don't always have the opportunity or want your client to be the first person that you practice on.

[00:19:42] Andrea: You know, I've got some live in Vietnam, quite a few people in Belgium, which is interesting. Um, France, South Africa. So that kind of global reach is, is getting there. So that's really my focus. I, I still coach individuals. People ask me to come along to their groups [00:20:00] and coach organizations ask me to do it, so I will still do that.

[00:20:23] Andrea: And because mine's a framework. . It's not like, well, I'll do it this way. you need to use the same technique every single time. Same approach. And I think, the college coaching technique, you know, it's called word coaching, would be really good. And I have used it with a big organization. We were doing some research, and they were like, whoa.

[00:20:46] Ross: I'm interested cuz as you know, I work with teams and leaders in organizations and sometimes you might get a response, you know, some of the exercises and explorations in the skills development in act. Some people are going, what, what the heck is this you're asking me to do? Do you ever get that sort of response like, Hey lady, you're asking me to cut things out from magazines and stick them on bits of paper?

[00:21:17] Andrea: Yeah.

[00:21:17] Andrea: And as you said, that's where the science helps because I always start with, this is why, why collage? But I also preempt, right? . So I'll say, I know you may be thinking, why would I wanna do a collage? That's something I did when I was five. That's really childish. So I preempt it and then I'll say, it's not childish, but it is childlike.

[00:22:00] Andrea: So I'll say, is anybody on let go to play it? And they'll be like, oh yeah. quite a few of them will have done. And when they haven't, as I said, I'm just like, it's childlike and this is why, and that's okay. And I said, you know, if you can remain open and curious just even for these couple of hours while we're together.

[00:22:35] Andrea: So you'll do your editing, you're analyzing, you're rationalizing because that sometimes sits better with people.

[00:22:54] Andrea: So I will shift the language to, to fit the room.

[00:23:01] Ross: are. And you are, you are heading off their potential objections. You're heading them off by inviting them to be curious and, and playful. It sounds like that Lego reference unlocks things, and I, I guess that's, most adults will have experienced Lego in some form in their life because of the success of Lego and probably have an affinity with that and a, and a real attraction to the, to the playfulness of that.

[00:23:35] Andrea: Yeah.

[00:23:43] Andrea: there's something about de familiarizing the familiar. So because we're very verbal centric, we use it as a way to process information to learn. And when you use something different, your brain has to think differently. because if you're using images instead of [00:24:00] words, then the processing is different. and and then that's where the unlocking comes from. That's where the insights and the new perspectives come from. So yeah, that definitely those kind of things, which is why Legos serious play.

[00:24:13] Ross: Okay. So Andrea, thank you for being so, so generous and open. Is, is there a takeaway that you would offer to the p supers just to leave them with, to reflect.

[00:24:46] Andrea: It starts first with how you think. So I'd really encourage you to just, just notice when you are. Solving problems. Just, just notice when you are being playful around something. All these are elements of creativity. Notice when you're being curious and just, yeah, just be more open to accepting actually, and, and nurturing your own creativity will make a, a big difference.

[00:25:13] Ross: Wow. Thank you, Andrea. Thank you for your persistence in your journey through the undergrowth and for writing this book. I've already reread bits of it since I read it the first time, there's something you said earlier that really struck me. I'd like to thank you for living the difference it makes to you.

[00:25:36] Ross: Oh, well thanks. Thanks for coming on the show. It's been a joy and a delight.

[00:25:43] Ross: That's it. Part two in the bag. Thanks so much to Andrei over bringing passion, creativity, and storytelling to people soup. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I [00:26:00] did and let us know what you think and the socials, or drop me an email.

[00:26:25] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:27:00] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now. Yeah, because I've been listening, I've become a pup and, um, I've been listening to them when I meet my breakfast

[00:27:24] Andrea: that's why I've been listening to Hailey's, and then I'll listen to Juta and I'll go back.