Do you get that nagging feeling your faith should be...more? Not more religious activity or more church programmes, but something deeper, something that actually changes how you live Monday to Friday?

Mark Buchanan challenges how we think about discipleship with an uncomfortable truth: simply attending church does not make you a disciple. Saying a prayer 15 years ago does not make you a disciple. Reading the Bible occasionally does not make you a disciple. So what does?

In this refreshingly honest conversation, Mark draws a powerful distinction between pupils who collect knowledge and disciples who develop Christ's character. Using Jesus' selection of his unlikely twelve disciples, he explores what radical commitment looks like in real life - including honest discussions about busyness, hard seasons, and what changes when you move from cultural Christianity to genuine discipleship.

[06:00] Pupils vs Disciples - A Distinction That Changes Everything

Mark starts with a comparison that stops you in your tracks.

A pupil attends an institution to acquire knowledge. A disciple joins a community to develop character - specifically, the character of Jesus.

What we discover:

• Pupils attend at set times with holidays; disciples sign up for an all-day, every-day thing
• Pupils learn from different teachers; disciples learn everything from one teacher
• Jesus chose his twelve based not on their knowledge or position, but on who he knew they would become
• Why a motley bunch of fishermen, a tax collector, and a zealot shaped the history of the entire planet

Key takeaway: Jesus is looking at you right now saying, I know who you can be. I know what is in you.

[10:00] What Jesus Actually Demands

Mark unpacks Matthew 28:19-20 and Mark 8:34 with uncomfortable honesty.

We are basically saying as a disciple, I do not get to call the shots anymore. I cannot be a disciple and get my own way all the time. I cannot be a disciple and find it convenient all the time. I cannot be a disciple and play it safe.

Real talk about:

• Why baptism creates a clear line: before (not following Jesus) and after (following Jesus)
• The submission required to obey everything Jesus commanded
• Why we have to deny ourselves and take up our cross daily
• The promise that matters most: Surely I am with you always, right to the very end of the age

Key takeaway: Being a disciple is about following without questioning, and that is difficult - but you are not doing it alone.

[17:00] The Real Test of Discipleship

Mark takes us to John 13:35 where Jesus reveals the surprising test of true discipleship.

By this, everyone will know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another. What an interesting acid test to apply. Only disciples of Jesus could love the other disciples that they are taking this journey with.

Why this matters:

• The test is not memorising scripture or knowing doctrine perfectly
• Jesus' twelve were a motley crew with different personalities - some lovable, some difficult
• Yet they found friendship, relationship, and love because they followed the same Lord
• People found this strangely attractive and felt safe joining this unlikely community

Key takeaway: The love that comes from being a disciple is the powerhouse that draws others to Christ.

[22:00] Conversation Street - When Faith Is Not Convenient

Anna Kettle gets brutally honest about the reality of following Jesus through different seasons.

I have definitely had seasons of life where it has been very exciting and I have been passionate about my faith, and seasons where I have been very discouraged and life has been hard, and I am like, oh, I do not really know if I wanna do this.

Community wisdom:

• Matt's struggle with busyness as his biggest enemy to discipleship
• Mark Buchanan's journey through a horrendously difficult season and God's question: Do you really think I would leave you swinging in the wind?
• Why standing still means losing Jesus as he keeps walking through the storm
• Anna's journey from head knowledge to heart relationship, including dying to desires through infertility and loss

Key takeaway: Discipleship becomes about prioritising your growth in Christ, not just attending church on Sunday.

[27:00] Cultural Christianity vs Real Discipleship

The conversation tackles an uncomfortable reality about Western Christianity.

When being a Christian makes your life absolutely dire, you would not dare say you were a Christian unless you were gonna be a disciple. But here, where we face minimal persecution, it feels like it is possibly two different things.

What emerged:

• Iran now has a million Christians despite horrendous persecution - possibly the fastest growing church in the world
• When being a Christian is costly, you only do it if you are genuinely committed
• In places where it is easy to be a Christian, we have created cultural Christianity - claiming the label without following Christ's example
• The difference between head knowledge and discipleship: one builds character through counting the cost

Key takeaway: Where you have counted the cost, that is how character grows.

[44:00] What Discipleship Actually Looks Like

Practical patterns emerged from the conversation about how discipleship works in real life.

Discipleship is definitely not a program. Jesus did not have the book, you know, 101 ways to disciple your friends here. I think he just did life with them. For me, discipleship is about doing life with people that have this common belief in Christ who will spur you on.

Three main patterns:

• Structured one-to-one relationships: Meeting regularly with someone further along in faith for prayer, accountability, and encouragement
• Peer-to-peer community: Small groups at similar life stages who meet to pray, share, and push each other on without hierarchical leadership
• Life-on-life proximity: Opening homes and letting people see real life - not the Instagram version but the messy reality

Key takeaway: Following Jesus was never meant to be a solo sport - Jesus had 12 disciples who did it as a group, like a team.

[53:00] The Challenge - Go As Radical As You Dare

Mark Buchanan closes with what might be the most important words of the evening.

Just urge everybody - go as radical as you dare and then push a bit harder. It is scary, but it is phenomenal. And if we do not do it, we will never really understand what the Lord has in store for us. Let us treat it as if it is not optional.

Practical next steps:

• Seek people out whose faith you respect and ask them for coffee or dinner
• If you cannot think of who to seek out, pray - God will definitely open those doors
• Recognise that Jesus is looking at you saying, I know who you can be
• Remember: he is not asking for perfection, just commitment to the journey

Key takeaway: That nagging feeling your faith should be more? That is Jesus inviting you to stop being a pupil who collects knowledge and start being a disciple transformed by walking with him daily.

Hello and welcome to Crowd Church coming to you live

2

from Liverpool this Sunday night.

3

My name is Matt Edmundson, and whether

this is your first time or whether

4

you've been part of our journey since the

beginning, it's brilliant to be with you.

5

We are a community of people figuring

out what it means to follow Jesus.

6

In real life, not the polished,

perfect version, but you know, the

7

messy, genuine, brilliant reality of

this whole thing called Christianity.

8

So let me give you a little

roadmap of what's gonna be

9

happening over the next hour.

10

We'll have a talk last about 20 minutes

looking at the topic of relationships,

11

which is the section of our series

becoming whole, that we are looking

12

at exploring how Christ makes us

whole across every domain of life.

13

After the talk, we've

got conversation streets.

14

Oh yes.

15

This is where we dig into what

you've just heard, and you get

16

to be part of that discussion.

17

So if you're with us live, jump into

the comments, share your questions,

18

your thoughts, and your stories.

19

And of course, if you're watching on

Catchup or listening to the podcast, then

20

thanks for being part of the crowd too.

21

Right?

22

Let's meet your hosts

and let's get started.

23

Well, good evening.

24

Welcome to Crowd.

25

Apparently I am your host.

26

That was perfectly timed.

27

Let's meet your host, which is me.

28

Uh, very warm.

29

Welcome to you.

30

My name is Matt Beside me.

31

It is a very beautiful Anna, and I say hi.

32

Anna Kettle: Good evening everyone.

33

Nice to be here again.

34

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's good.

35

Funny.

36

Yeah.

37

Good fun.

38

So very warm.

39

Welcome to you.

40

Uh, warm.

41

Welcome to Crowd.

42

Do say, like I said, do

say hi in the comments.

43

Let us know where you're watching from.

44

Be great to see you.

45

Um, I see AIDS in the comments already.

46

Aid.

47

Good to see you, man.

48

I have to put my glasses

on now to see the, 'cause.

49

The text on the YouTube

comments, it's so small.

50

Anna Kettle: It's the text on YouTube.

51

It's not your eyes.

52

Matt Edmundson: That's exactly what it is.

53

Yes, it's YouTube's forward.

54

It's nothing to do with me or my age.

55

Um, but yes.

56

Uh, so, uh, great to be with you.

57

Uh, really great to be with you.

58

Actually really looking

forward to this tonight.

59

We've got Mark Buchanan, in fact,

mark, we can introduce Mark real quick.

60

Let's put Mark on the screen.

61

Uh, mark.

62

Say hi everybody.

63

Nice to meet

64

you all.

65

Yes, mark is actually, we're

doing something new tonight.

66

Something different, something

that we've not done for a while.

67

Um, normally we have the speaker next

to us here in the church, don't we?

68

And, um, tonight, mark is speaking.

69

He's, he's spoken a Crowd before,

but normally it's a prerecorded talk.

70

He's doing it live from his.

71

Somewhere in Yorkshire.

72

That's right, mark, isn't it?

73

You're in Yorkshire.

74

I'm right

75

in

76

North

77

Yorkshire.

78

Yeah.

79

North Yorkshire.

80

Yes.

81

And so Zoe's gonna be very busy on the

tech desk flicking between, uh, all the

82

different screens that are going on.

83

Uh, but we're excited.

84

So Mark's joining us live, he's

gonna be speaking to us, uh, and also

85

joining us for Conversation Street.

86

So, uh, yeah, this one's gonna be fun.

87

Have I missed anything?

88

Anna Kettle: I don't think so.

89

Just like bear with us if something goes

wrong, because as you say, this is a

90

first and we're not totally confident,

but hopefully it'll all go well.

91

Matt Edmundson: You know, I'm

very confident, uh, I have to say.

92

Um, Louise is in the comments.

93

Hi Louise.

94

Great to see you.

95

Uh, thank you for joining

in the live stream.

96

Anybody else just.

97

Say hi in the comments.

98

Um, as we go through the talk,

any questions, any thoughts, any

99

ideas, all that sort of good stuff,

do throw them into the comments.

100

Now what's gonna happen is after

the talk, we go into Conversation

101

Street, where we go through some

of the questions and comments.

102

We get to talk to Mark about his talk.

103

Um, we get to hold up scorecards

like, you know how well he

104

did outta 10, is that right?

105

Anna Kettle: Well, you could do that if

you want, if you wanna be mean about it.

106

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I

want Mark to come back.

107

I won't do that.

108

Um, and so, but anyway, we're gonna

do Conversation Street, but after

109

Conversation Street, we are gonna go over

to the Google meets room and Zoe hopefully

110

is gonna put the link in the comments.

111

Yeah, she's put it there, which is great.

112

Um, and so come join us

in there after the talk.

113

Come meet us.

114

It's, it's great to see

you in the comments.

115

We love the interaction and

the comments do do that.

116

Um, but it's also great to meet

you in the Google room afterwards.

117

So do come and say hi.

118

Um, if it's your first time, don't

feel any pressure to put your camera

119

on or anything like that, but we'd

love it to meet you, to chat with you.

120

Um, I'm gonna be in there.

121

Aid's gonna be in there afterwards.

122

Uh, I think, mark, you are

gonna come say hello as well.

123

Yeah, yeah.

124

In the Google round drop, which is great.

125

Fantastic.

126

So, uh, that is gonna come up, uh,

just giving you the pre-warning.

127

Is that right?

128

Yeah, that's right.

129

My English is failing me right now.

130

I'll just talk way too much today.

131

Um, so yeah, love to see you in there.

132

So that's coming up.

133

Uh, but without any further ado,

I'll tell you what we should do.

134

Let's get Mark on.

135

Mark's gonna be talking to us

about discipleship, and then Anna

136

and I will be back after the talk.

137

Uh, for those of you who don't

know, mark, if this is your first

138

time, whether there's a Crowd or

you've not heard him talk before,

139

Mark's a really good friend of mine.

140

And a really great guy, and I

love, love, love hearing him speak.

141

What is, this is like your

third or fourth time with us

142

now, mark, something like that.

143

Mark Buchannan: Uh, third, I think it is.

144

Yeah.

145

Matt Edmundson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

146

And we keep, we keep inviting

him back and he keeps saying

147

yes, which is a beautiful thing.

148

Uh, and so you're gonna want to grab

your notebooks, grab your pens, because

149

Mark is just full of wisdom and stories,

uh, that I know you are gonna love.

150

So without further ado,

let me hand over to Mr.

151

Mark Buchanan, the

legend that is, is Mark.

152

Mark Buchannan: Thank you.

153

Well, what a buildup.

154

So yeah, we're gonna talk about

discipleship, uh, this evening,

155

and, and I just thought I'd make a

few points before we jump into the,

156

uh, the verses we're gonna look at.

157

It just struck me that when

we say discipleship, certainly

158

you've been in church for a while,

you must have heard that term.

159

And it is one of those words

where everybody says, oh yeah,

160

discipleship, but it might mean

different things in different

161

people.

162

Um, and yesterday I was

thinking about this,

163

about the

164

difference between being a

165

pupil

166

and being a disciple.

167

So

168

you could say that a pupil attends

an institution of some kind

169

in order to acquire knowledge.

170

While a disciple joins a community

171

to

172

acquire

173

character and specifically the character

of Jesus, so pupils attend set times,

174

and they have holidays and break

175

time.

176

But disciples, it's an all day everyday

thing that you're signing up for.

177

Pupils learn different things from

different teachers, but disciples

178

learn everything from the one teacher.

179

Pupils select their school of choice,

but rabbis or those who are discipling

180

choose their own disciples, particularly

Jesus chooses who gets to be a disciple.

181

He makes the offer to us all,

182

but, but

183

he is looking for disciples before

disciples are looking for him.

184

And then pupils acquire knowledge and then

they're have to work out how to apply it.

185

Apply.

186

But disciples learn principles.

187

Principles, and the application

from their Rabbi Jesus.

188

And the interesting thing is Jesus,

if you think about his 12 disciples,

189

so he had many disciples, but there

was the 12, he then commissioned to

190

be apostles of the the good news.

191

But he didn't call them based on

their knowledge or their position.

192

He chose them based on who he knew

they would become, because it's a

193

bit of a motley bunch, isn't it?

194

When you think about it,

you've got somewhere between

195

four and seven fishermen.

196

We've got a tax collector, we've

got a treasurer, and we've got

197

somebody who's called a zealot.

198

So part of a quasi paramilitary

political organization.

199

Trying to reestablish a kingdom

for the Jews by all means

200

necessary, including violence.

201

So that's a very strange collection.

202

And on the face of it, you think, well,

I don't know if I would've chosen them.

203

You know, where are the great leaders?

204

Where's the rich people?

205

Where's the people with

political influence or who

206

know how to do certain things?

207

But when Jesus was looking around

or all those who were showing

208

interest in him, he could already

see who those men could become.

209

And they themselves had

no idea about that at all.

210

But he was already seeing the end

product that they were gonna become,

211

the character that they were gonna

have, and outta that character

212

would come the things that they did.

213

And when you think about it, those 12

shaped the history of the entire world.

214

So that was an amazing outcome, but

incredible character judgment by Jesus.

215

Just looking at people think I know

who you could be if you follow me.

216

And I find that encouraging 'cause

I think we can dare to believe

217

that Jesus is looking at us and

saying, I know who you can be.

218

I know what's in you.

219

I know that if you have my

character, there are all sorts of

220

things that you will be able to do.

221

But the thing that he wants more

than anything, and that's the

222

difference between being a pupil

and a disciple, is relationship.

223

He is looking to spend time with

us, not just so that there's times

224

for lessons and practice, but he's

looking to spend time with us 'cause he

225

actually wants to spend time with us.

226

And I find that mind

boggling to be quite honest.

227

But that's what scripture says and

I think we just have to trust it.

228

So just gimme one second.

229

So I got on my screen there.

230

Yeah.

231

So let's have a look at Matthew

chapter 28 verses 19 and 20.

232

And then, funnily enough, um, my

dad used to be, uh, the pastor

233

of Jubilee Drive City Mission.

234

So he is part of the

Liverpool City mission.

235

So the church was on Jubilee

Drive and I got baptized there

236

as a very, very, uh, young boy.

237

In those days, we had to choose a

verse or baptism verse, and mine

238

was Matthew Chapter 28, verse 20.

239

So it was a really special verse for me.

240

This, and in the NIV, it says,

therefore, go and make disciples of

241

all nations, baptizing them in the

name of the Father and of the Son and

242

of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them

to obey everything I've commanded you.

243

And surely I'm with you always,

even to the very end of the age.

244

So there's a few things there

that we could just very quickly

245

pull out of that passage.

246

So it, it's called the Great Commission.

247

So if you read your Bible, it's

probably got a little heading above it

248

saying The Great Commission, the great

sending out the great giving of orders.

249

But it's interesting that the first

thing that he tells the disciples

250

to do to people is to baptize

them so that there's a clear line.

251

Before the line, I wasn't following Jesus.

252

After the line, I am following Jesus.

253

And baptism is us symbolically

joining Jesus in his death so

254

that we can symbolically join him

in that new resurrection life.

255

So there has to be a point at

which you start being a disciple.

256

You don't fall into it.

257

It doesn't happen by accident.

258

You don't just get caught up and find out

halfway through that you're a disciple.

259

You decide to be a disciple.

260

You decide to engage.

261

And then he's saying baptizing

in the name of the Father,

262

the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

263

So God is a relationship between the

Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,

264

and we're joining into that relationship.

265

So being a disciple is

not a lonely business.

266

Being a disciple means deep, intimate

connection with God the Father, God, the

267

Son, Jesus, and with the Holy Spirit.

268

So we are definitely not

gonna be doing it on our own.

269

And then he is telling them to

teach them to obey everything

270

that he had commanded them.

271

So teaching and learning

is part of discipleship.

272

So if you are not willing to be

a pupil, you can't be a disciple.

273

But being a disciple is much

more than just being a pupil,

274

if that makes any sense.

275

But there are things to learn.

276

There are things to understand.

277

There are things to study.

278

Then he's saying, teach them

to be obedient to everything

279

that I've commanded you.

280

So there has to be a submission there

where we choose to obey what we've

281

learned about the nature of Jesus, the

character of Jesus, the wishes of Jesus.

282

And that requires significant submission.

283

'cause we're basically saying

as a disciple, I don't get

284

to call the shots anymore.

285

I don't get to live life just exactly

the way I think I should live it.

286

I'm going to live it along the lines

of what Jesus is asking me to do.

287

And that's a bit of a big ask, isn't it?

288

You think, oh my word,

this sounds kind of heavy.

289

But that's why the last bit of that

verse, and surely I'm with you always

290

right to the very end of the age.

291

It's so reassuring, isn't it?

292

Because we're not gonna be on our own.

293

So Jesus is telling us, look, I want you

to be disciples and then I want you to

294

make disciples, but I am gonna be with

you all the way through that process.

295

So just a couple of other

verses about discipleship.

296

So in March, chapter eight, verse

34, Jesus says, whoever wants to be

297

my disciple must deny themselves and

take up their cross and follow me.

298

So we have to deny ourselves.

299

We have to take up our cross

and we have to follow him.

300

See, the thing about being a

disciple is you are on a journey.

301

Jesus, when he called, uh, the disciples,

we, we see him call six of them,

302

specifically in the different gospels.

303

And always he says, follow me.

304

And nearly always, he said, and

I'm gonna make you fishers of men.

305

But follow me is the first thing Jesus

said when he was assembling his disciples.

306

So follow me.

307

It means there's gonna be movement,

there's gonna be a journey, and Jesus has

308

already decided where that journey is.

309

And funnily enough, he's not actually

gonna ask me where he thinks we should

310

go or where I think we should go.

311

So being a disciple is about

following without questioning,

312

and I find that very difficult.

313

Um, and it says we have to deny ourselves.

314

This is not about me getting my own way.

315

This is not about me calling the shots.

316

It's not me even about me

necessarily having a say.

317

It's not a democracy.

318

And then if that isn't tough

enough, he says, and we've gotta

319

take up our cross and follow him.

320

So the Bible uses different words.

321

Sometimes it's called our flesh or our

sinful nature, but that bit of us that

322

always wants to do what's good for me.

323

That is what we have to put on the cross,

and that has to be a daily process.

324

Because if we don't, there's always

gonna be this tension between

325

what Jesus is asking of us and

what our flesh is asking of us.

326

So being a disciple is to say, it's not

my way, it's your way, just like Jesus

327

to say in the garden of Gethsemane.

328

So I don't think we should

make light of being a disciple.

329

It's gonna pan out brilliantly, and

we'll talk about that in a moment.

330

But there's a cost to being a disciple.

331

I can't be a disciple and

get my own way all the time.

332

I can't be a disciple and find

it convenient all the time.

333

I can't be a disciple and play it

safe, and I certainly can't put

334

myself first because being a disciple

is about putting the master first.

335

So he's asking a lot, but he's doing that

because he knows the reward that will come

336

and the results that will come from that.

337

So the goal really is to yield every

single aspect of my life to Jesus.

338

That's what taking up my cross means.

339

So if that's not my intent, I'm

gonna struggle to be a disciple.

340

But if I start like that and I start

being a disciple, it builds its own

341

momentum and the more I see that Jesus'

way of doing things is always better.

342

That the results are always better and

that there's actually joy in following

343

the master, then it can snowball and

it becomes easier to be a disciple.

344

But at the beginning it can

be a bit of a, a challenge.

345

And speaking of challenges, the verse

that I really thought, oh, my word,

346

you know, when I was looking at this,

is in John chapter 13, verse 35.

347

And Jesus says By this, everyone

will know that you are my disciples

348

if you have love for one another.

349

Now, that's an interesting test, isn't it?

350

Well, why doesn't he say by this that

everybody will know that you are my

351

disciples when you can cro 50 different

scripture verses, or you've prayed for

352

the sick 15 times, or you know the 10

Commandments and could expound on them.

353

What an interesting acid test to apply to.

354

Are you a disciple?

355

It says the main test is if you

love one another, everybody's gonna

356

know that you are my disciples.

357

So just think about that.

358

If you are sitting at home, you might be

on your own, but if you are with anybody,

359

just turn to them and say, you know what?

360

Only Jesus could love somebody

like you because that's really

361

what this verse is saying.

362

Be careful how you say that.

363

Don't, don't be sarcastic 'cause

it could cause trouble, but.

364

The point being is only disciples of

Jesus could love the other disciples

365

that they're taking this journey with.

366

And that's why he uses that as the

final test is if we've absorbed Jesus

367

teaching, if we've looked at Jesus

nature, if we've studied the things that

368

Jesus did and said, and we've allowed.

369

The, the Holy Spirit to

make that real in our lives.

370

Then we're gonna find that we have

an ability to love people that we

371

otherwise would not be able to love.

372

Because that's the other thing

about the disciples, isn't it?

373

You know, there's the 12 and then there's

the 70, and then there's the huge crowds.

374

But just think of the different characters

and the different personalities, and some

375

people who were really lovable and some

people who were really difficult to love.

376

That's a really motley crew, isn't it?

377

And yet, somehow, because they were

all following the same Lord, they found

378

friendship, they found relationship,

they found fellowship, and then

379

they found love amongst each other.

380

And that's what got the ancient

world thinking to think, well,

381

these are strange people.

382

'cause look at them.

383

They're not who we would've picked.

384

And they're not people who look

like they're the world changers of

385

this generation, and what is this

love that they have for one another?

386

People found it strangely attractive.

387

So in those early days, people

were coming to find out what was

388

happening and they just felt.

389

Safe they felt this is a

group that I could be part of.

390

This is a group that

I'd like to be part of.

391

These are people who I feel comfortable

with, even though they're nothing like me.

392

And I think that's really

what Jesus is looking for.

393

Everything else that comes outta

that, like people getting saved and

394

people joining church and people

getting healed and people getting

395

delivered, that is fantastic.

396

Jesus wants that.

397

But it's the love that comes from being

a disciple that is the powerhouse.

398

And it's exciting, isn't it?

399

'cause every church has got people

who it's easy to get on with and

400

people, it's not easy to get on with.

401

But when we are truly disciples,

we will find in our heart a love

402

that we didn't know was there.

403

And that will apply to our fellow

disciples and then the Lord

404

will start to point that out

into the society where we are.

405

And that will be one of the main

mechanisms that will draw people to Jesus.

406

And that's really exciting, isn't it?

407

So there's quite a lot of a price

to pay for being a disciple.

408

And just because we're being going to

church, that doesn't mean we are one.

409

Just because we said a Prayer

of salvation 15 years ago,

410

that doesn't mean we are one.

411

Just because I've read the Bible

now and then doesn't make me one.

412

So I think for all of us, and I'm

looking at myself here as well, I

413

think that's the challenge, isn't it?

414

Is am I a church churchgoer?

415

Am I a good person with a

layer of Christianity on top,

416

or am I a disciple of Jesus?

417

Am I a fully paid up, absolutely sold

out, deeply committed disciple, or am I

418

doing it as and when I can spare the time?

419

So I think I just like to urge us

to really dive into being disciples

420

to study the teaching of Jesus,

particularly the Sermon on the mounts.

421

Let's listen to everything that

we can about Jesus in God's word.

422

Let's ask the Holy Spirit to bring it

alive for us, and then let's spend time

423

saying, Lord, that isn't how I think at

the moment, but it is how I want to think.

424

That wouldn't be my natural behavior or

my natural reactions to the things that

425

happen to me, but Lord, make me that

kind of person and I submit to you, Lord

426

Jesus, I'm willing to buy into this.

427

I'm willing to do my part.

428

I just need your help to make it happen.

429

And that's the beginning of the

really, really exciting discipleship

430

journey that God is calling us to.

431

So lots to think about there,

but let me hand back to our hosts

432

and let's see what we do with it.

433

Well, thanks Mark.

434

Uh, sorry about the echo by

the way, folks at the start.

435

Hopefully we've got that now resolved.

436

Thank you for writing in the comments.

437

What was going on?

438

Uh, rushing around a little bit

there, making the tech work, but we

439

got it in the end, which was great.

440

Discipleship, um, is, it is always an

interesting conversation, isn't it?

441

Discipleship, because, um.

442

It feels like, you know, a lot of the

conversation is, uh, about becoming

443

a Christian, but actually what Mark

was saying there, and the, you know,

444

what the Bible talks about is more

about becoming a disciple, isn't it?

445

Anna Kettle: Mm-hmm.

446

And in a way, I think the two

are the same thing, aren't they?

447

Like you can't be a Christian, like

the word Christian, as I understand

448

it literally means fuller of Christ.

449

Mark Buchannan: Yeah.

450

Anna Kettle: So the idea that you can

be a Christian without following Christ.

451

Day by day, and I'm following

his, like, it, it's a nonsense.

452

Like yeah, there's a lot of people who

are cultural Christians, aren't they?

453

Yeah.

454

Like you see this more in the states, in

the uk, I think, but it's a lot of people

455

who call themselves Christians by label.

456

Mark Buchannan: Yeah.

457

Anna Kettle: But you look at their

lives and you think, yeah, but

458

you're not following any of the

principles that Jesus lived by.

459

Yeah.

460

Mark Buchannan: Yeah.

461

And,

462

Anna Kettle: and for me,

it's one and the same.

463

How can you.

464

Claims to be a Christian but not

be really following Christ example.

465

Yeah.

466

Um, but yeah, that's a

challenge for us all, isn't it?

467

It's easier said than done.

468

Mark Buchannan: It is.

469

It's an interesting one, isn't it?

470

Because it's a, as you're talking,

I'm thinking, well actually it's a

471

bit like an armchair football fan.

472

Isn't it to say I support a football

club, um, but to actually be a

473

supporter of two different things.

474

Mm-hmm.

475

Right.

476

And I think it's easy in this country

and in the states to say, I'm a Christian

477

because of the cultural aspect of it.

478

Like you say, um, it's not easy to say I'm

a disciple of Christ because, um, like you

479

were saying, mark, there's a cost, right?

480

There's a, there's a cost to discipleship,

which makes it a bit tricky perhaps

481

to sort of get involved with.

482

Definitely, and it, it feels like to us

here in the West, or let's say in the

483

uk, it feels like a choice, you know,

which is why I am phrasing the way I am.

484

But it is interesting.

485

I, I follow a, uh, a podcast.

486

It's called The Surprising

Rebirth of Belief in God.

487

It's been running a couple of years

now talking about the sort of the

488

quiet revival and some other things.

489

But, um, they had a guest on

a couple of weeks back from a

490

group called Elam Ministries.

491

Um, now I used to work a little bit

with them years ago when I worked

492

for a guy called Derek Prince and

they work with Persian Christians.

493

So back when I was doing my thing in

the Middle East, we always used to

494

say there are 500 Christians in Iran.

495

Um, now there's a million Christians

in Iran and it's quite possibly the

496

fastest growing church in the world,

which is surprising because the

497

persecution is absolutely horrendous.

498

But the funny thing is, when being a

Christian makes your life absolutely dire.

499

You wouldn't dare say you were a Christian

unless you were gonna be a disciple.

500

'cause you wouldn't do it unless you'd

really come to know that following

501

Jesus has to be taken seriously

and is the right thing to do.

502

But here where you know you can be

a Christian, we are getting some

503

persecution these days, aren't we?

504

But not really anything

major on the scale of things.

505

So I think it's much easier to be

what, you know, Anna was saying about

506

being a a, a cultural Christian.

507

That's an option here, but in most

parts of the world, there is no

508

such thing as a cultural Christian.

509

You're either a Christian and

your life is under threat or

510

you're not a Christian at all.

511

And for them, discipleship and being

a Christian are the same thing, but

512

it's 'cause life is pretty easy for us.

513

It feels like it's possibly

two different things.

514

That's a really interesting

point, isn't it?

515

That, um, that yes.

516

I I, and it's interesting, isn't it?

517

How, like you say, where

there's the greatest.

518

Persecution, the greatest

trouble with being a Christian.

519

That's where you find, I suppose,

those that are more committed

520

to Christ in many ways, right?

521

Yeah.

522

Yeah.

523

Um, and it's, and sometimes quite

often, you know, people ask, well,

524

why does God permit suffering and,

and, and all this sort of stuff.

525

But it seems that where there's

suffering there, there's people

526

who are more sold out to Jesus.

527

I'm not saying, you know, that

that's what God uses it for, but

528

it's, it's interesting, isn't it?

529

There's a sort of an irony to it that

in the West where life is easier.

530

Mm.

531

Um, we tend not to need in our

own thinking God as much perhaps.

532

Anna Kettle: I think that's right.

533

Pos possibly.

534

It goes back to what Mark sort

of started on the, almost the

535

first point he made on that talk.

536

That is that there's a difference

between head knowledge and just

537

learning, being a learner who

learns information about something.

538

And being a disciple, which is more

about learning and practicing and

539

building character as you do it.

540

Yeah.

541

Mark Buchannan: Yeah.

542

Anna Kettle: I think the two are

linked, like where you've counted the

543

cost, you know, or this persecution,

that's how character gras as well.

544

Yeah.

545

Like there's something

in that I think like,

546

Mark Buchannan: yeah, there is.

547

Yeah.

548

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

549

What do you think Mark?

550

Mark Buchannan: No, I, I'm with you.

551

I'm trying to remember that verse.

552

You know, about, uh,

suffering causes persecution.

553

Yeah, that's right.

554

Character and character.

555

Brings hope, which is really interesting.

556

It's like a complete cycle, isn't it?

557

Um, so when it's Jesus or nothing,

it you dig deep, you know, and it is

558

difficult and you do suffer persecution,

but it builds Godly character and

559

then that gives you hope because

the more godly your character is.

560

The more easily you trust that even

if it's bad, God has got a really good

561

plan and that God can do anything and

that God can redeem us and rescue us.

562

Um, whereas if we go in half-hearted

and say, yeah, I'll shop up on a Sunday,

563

but I've got other priorities and you

know, I don't want get too, you know, un

564

British about it, you never really see.

565

The results, and you never really have

that vibrant relationship with Jesus.

566

So there's no momentum there.

567

So it's a paradox, but it seem to work.

568

Yeah.

569

Momentum's a good word.

570

I like that.

571

In this, in in that sense,

have you ever been, um.

572

And it may be like that where

you're just like, well, I just

573

can't be bothered right now.

574

Um, I mean, apart from the

old Sunday where you're like,

575

I just wanna lie in, um,

576

Anna Kettle: that happens

more often than it should.

577

Um, yeah.

578

In all honesty.

579

Yeah, definitely.

580

I, I think probably most

Christians who say that's not

581

true are probably lying to you.

582

Um, yeah, I've had seasons of life

where it's been very exciting and yeah.

583

Yeah, I've been passionate about my

faith and seasons where I've been very

584

discouraged and life's been hard, and

I'm like, oh, I don't really know if I

585

wanna do this or if I'm all in with this.

586

And it's usually, sometimes it's

when those, those seasons are hard.

587

Then you sort of have to dig a bit

deeper, but then the fruit of that

588

afterwards is, is good, I think.

589

Um,

590

Mark Buchannan: yeah.

591

Yeah.

592

Anna Kettle: But yeah, I also

think sometimes you can just get a

593

bit passive when things are easy.

594

Yeah.

595

I think I've seen it where

both ways in my life.

596

How about you?

597

Mark Buchannan: Yeah, I, I think

it's easy to get passive when

598

things are easy, but it's easy to

get passive when things are busy.

599

Um, and that's probably

the thing that I've seen.

600

More in me and also in people around me

where yeah, you know, life gets busy.

601

You know, you get married, you

get kids, work starts, work gets

602

hard, work gets harder and harder.

603

You know, I, I run my own business

is always an excuse to do something.

604

Yeah.

605

Right.

606

Um, and so then for me, discipleship

becomes about prioritizing

607

and prioritizing not just.

608

Going to church on a Sunday, but

actually my growth in Christ, right?

609

And, and my growth in the knowledge

of scripture, my growth in my

610

understanding of God, my growth in

my communion with God, my ability to

611

hear God and sense God and see God.

612

Um, so I, I'd probably say yes.

613

I, I think busyness is

probably my biggest enemy.

614

Mark, I dunno about you.

615

Yeah.

616

Busyness is a absolute killer, isn't it?

617

For sure.

618

Yeah.

619

Yeah.

620

And, and it, it's interesting, I, I,

I'm, I think on the upswing from a,

621

a re horrendously difficult season

and sometimes you just because you

622

don't understand it and you can't make

any sense of it, it shuts you down.

623

And there's a sort of natural tendency

to just curl up into a ball and hide.

624

Um.

625

And yet it's in those times when for

various, you know, reasons, God sends

626

people along with a word of encouragement

or a word of exhalation, you know,

627

basically said, look, get up Don.

628

Um, and then it's surprising, isn't it?

629

You know, in the depth of your situations

you find God and then he taps into the,

630

what you know of his character to say.

631

But, you know, I felt him almost

audibly speaking to me a few.

632

Weeks ago saying, but based on what you

know of me, do you really think I would

633

just leave you swinging in the wind?

634

I know it looks like that, but do

you really think I would do that?

635

And I thought, no, I know you wouldn't.

636

And that was a bit of a turning point.

637

Um, so I think there's lots

of things that shut us down.

638

You know, laziness, apathy,

busyness, um, chasing.

639

Silly priorities, you know, that

don't really matter is another one.

640

But fear, I suppose that's

what I'm talking about, is, you

641

know, the paralysis of fear.

642

Like, oh, my circumstances are

so bad, I just feel overwhelmed.

643

Um, but that's where, as a disciple,

we have to say to us, yeah, but

644

I committed to this journey.

645

You know, I committed to following

Jesus and the fact that he's walking

646

through a waging, a raging storm.

647

I have to follow him through it because

that's what I said I was gonna do.

648

Um, and if I stand still, he'll keep

on walking and then I've lost him.

649

So I think that's where we suddenly

realized, oh, this discipleship thing

650

was a bit more scary than I thought.

651

But by then you think,

well, I mean it now.

652

I'm, I just need to carry on.

653

Yeah.

654

It's, it's such a

powerful point, isn't it?

655

I, I'm intrigued again by this.

656

No, it was something that you

said actually mock, um, about

657

discipleship being a journey.

658

Right.

659

In the sense that, um.

660

At the start of the gospels, we read

Jesus going to the fishermen, you know,

661

to the disciples going, come follow me.

662

Anna Kettle: Mm.

663

Mark Buchannan: Um, you, you, you sort

of fast forward through the gospels

664

and that becomes, pick up your cross.

665

That's like come and die.

666

Right?

667

It doesn't start, Jesus

doesn't start with that.

668

He leads with, come follow me.

669

And then as you go through the gospels,

his, his sort of invitations and

670

discipleship draw you in deeper and deeper

and they, they get a bit more involved.

671

Um, and I think this is perhaps

one of the things I've noticed

672

about my, my discipleship life,

if you like, is, is a journey.

673

And where you are now is not where you

are gonna be and where you are gonna be.

674

Uh, tomorrow is not where you'll

be in a few months time, right.

675

Or a few years time.

676

And that God sort of takes you deeper and

deeper, the more you, you go along with

677

him, which is really important because

I think if you're new to the Christian

678

faith, or if you're just starting out

some of these sayings, some of these

679

ideas, you go, man, that's a bit intense.

680

And it's like, yeah, but you, you,

you don't need to get there tomorrow.

681

Right.

682

Just let God take you on the

journey and let him work some

683

of these things out with you.

684

Right?

685

It's like you don't have to,

the day you become a Christian,

686

you don't have to go, right.

687

Well, I now need to get rid of all my

sin and all my, you know, all of these

688

things just have to disappear overnight.

689

It's not how it works.

690

And, and, and he definitely takes you

on a journey, um, uh, in these things.

691

And I guess, mark, that's

what you found as well, right?

692

Yeah, absolutely.

693

Um, you know, and God, yeah, I was

thinking about, you know, Peter, you

694

know, he, I just don't think he would've

ever imagined in his wildest dreams who

695

he would become, but Jesus knew from the

very beginning who he was gonna become.

696

Um, so when he says, follow

me, you know, a lot of that is.

697

Follow me into circumstances

will that will strip away.

698

What's not helpful about the way

you think and behave leaving?

699

Just the elements that God put in you

at birth and Peter emerges despite

700

some real screw ups along the way

emerges as an absolute powerhouse.

701

You know, you think it's hard to

imagine that there would be the church

702

that we know today if it wasn't for

Peter, but he's just a fisherman.

703

Who denies Jesus gets it wrong on

multiple occasions, you know, causes

704

trouble in the garden of Gethsemane.

705

But all the time Jesus was looking

at him saying, yeah, but you are the

706

man on whose confession of faith.

707

I will build this huge

thing called the church.

708

And you think that is amazing?

709

Um, and I think that's the

confidence we have, isn't it?

710

Is like I run out of confidence.

711

My own self, but Jesus never does,

and he's confidence in himself and

712

he's confident in his ability to draw

out of me things that he put inside

713

of me at the moment I was conceived,

most of which I've got no idea about.

714

Um, yeah, absolutely.

715

And I, I mean, I, I, I love the fact

you talk about Peter, um, because

716

he gives me a lot of hope, Peter.

717

Yeah.

718

Yeah.

719

You know, he gives me

an awful lot of hope.

720

Um, what's your journey been

like, your discipleship journey?

721

Uh, with, with God.

722

'cause you, I think my background is,

I became a Christian when I was 18.

723

It's very different to yours.

724

Where, and Mark, you're obviously

the same as Anna in, in many ways.

725

'cause you both grew

up pastors kids, right?

726

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

727

So I guess my discipleship journey is

slightly different in that because I

728

grew up in Christianity, always going to

church since probably I was a tiny baby.

729

Really.

730

Um, I grew up knowing a

lot about Jesus before.

731

Adulthood and really understanding

fully what that meant.

732

So for me, it was much more of

a gradual figuring out what that

733

meant for my own life and really.

734

Not fully mentally consenting to become

a disciple and understanding what that

735

meant and really counting that cost

and wanting that for my own life until

736

early adulthood, like coming, you

know, coming to university, finding

737

faith for myself rather than just that.

738

It goes back to that thing we were talking

about, about it moving from head knowledge

739

and just know being around Christianity

and knowing lots of the stories from

740

the Bible and growing up, going to youth

groups and knowing a lot about Jesus.

741

But not necessarily having that

personal relationship, which I think

742

sometimes can be a slow burner that

if you've grown up through the church.

743

Um, yeah, that was my experience

that really I had to make a

744

decision as a young adult.

745

Yeah.

746

That I actually wanted that for myself

and I was gonna pursue it wholeheartedly.

747

And I think once I did it was

really exciting and really.

748

Just a relationship

that really came alive.

749

Yeah.

750

Um, and then there's been seasons

where that's been up and down since.

751

Yeah.

752

And there's, there's definitely been

seasons where it's been like, you know,

753

you talk about dying to yourself and

I think a lot of that for me has been

754

dying to what I would want my life

to look like sometimes, like be that.

755

Where I wanna be in my career or you

know, like I've talked about this before

756

in space, but the journey like me and

my husband went through around having a

757

family and not being able to have a family

that we would've wanted to have, and

758

sort of dying to a lot of my own desires

and trusting that God will take my life

759

and make it into what he wants it to be.

760

And that.

761

Just knowing that he loves me and

that I can trust him with that.

762

'cause I think that's the thing.

763

For a long time I would be like, oh, but

that sounds really scary and I agree.

764

But when you know that God is good and

that he's for you and that he loves

765

you a hundred percent, then there's

nothing to be scared of anymore.

766

Like it sounds like a scary leap, but

the more that you come into relationship

767

with God and know that he's for you.

768

Then the less scary that is because

you know you're safe with him.

769

And that for me has been a journey.

770

Really.

771

Yeah.

772

Mark Buchannan: It's a really,

it is powerful what you're saying

773

because actually this idea of dying

to self for you is meant letting go,

774

perhaps of an idea of what family

was gonna look like for you and Andy.

775

Right.

776

Um, this, that, that's really.

777

Um, how can I put it?

778

It's not, it's not the message of the,

of the, of culture is it, and, and

779

which is all about cumulation more,

getting what you want, follow your

780

desires and all that sort of stuff.

781

Actually, what you guys have been

through with the miscarriages, which

782

you have talked about on crowding.

783

Yeah.

784

You, you talked about quite in

depth on quite a few podcasts

785

on the What's the Story podcast,

if you wanna know more about it.

786

Um, that can't of been easy though.

787

To, to sort of, in Christian circles,

we'd say, put in that on the altar.

788

Do I mean, just to, to, to relinquish.

789

Relinquish that.

790

Anna Kettle: Yeah.

791

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying God

wanted or intended that for my life, but I

792

think when things happen, like sickness or

infertility or there's, there's a hundred

793

million things that can go wrong in our

lives in this broken world aren't there?

794

That's just one of them.

795

I feel like although those things don't

come from God, when you are walking with

796

God, he will use them to shape who you

are and to shape that character that Mark

797

was talking about so that they're not

wasted, um, so that they're not in vain.

798

Like I don't feel like

our pain was for nothing.

799

Like I feel like I feel like I've

grown and changed as a person.

800

Like I'm not the person I was

before we went into that season

801

of life in, in many ways.

802

And I think Andy, my

husband, would say the same.

803

Um.

804

That's not the same as saying,

oh, I think God intended that.

805

Like, I don't think that miscarriage or

death or disease ever comes from God.

806

Um, but I think he allows those things.

807

Yeah.

808

You know, for a season in order and,

and, and if we walk with him, he's,

809

you know, he's willing to bring

good out of even those awful things.

810

Yeah.

811

But I think the enemy, you

know, intends the harm, not God.

812

Yeah.

813

Yeah.

814

But he, he's just such a

redeeming God, isn't he?

815

And Mark mentioned that as well, that

he can redeem even the most broken

816

things and bring good out of them,

because that's, that's what he does.

817

Mark Buchannan: Yeah.

818

Yeah.

819

Can I ask you, Anna did,

so you grew up in, in a.

820

Christian environment, did you reject it

at some point and then come back to it?

821

Or was it just that once you came away

to university you sort of grew into it?

822

Anna Kettle: Yeah, I think

it, for me it was the latter.

823

I never, I never really liked,

did a huge rebellious thing.

824

Um.

825

I just, yeah, I just think I

took it deeper as an adult.

826

I think I was just around it, but

I didn't really have to think about

827

whether I was Christian or not until

I sort of moved out of my family home

828

and then it was like, oh, no one's

just taking you to church on Sunday.

829

You don't have to go.

830

Do you want to go?

831

And if you do, what does that mean?

832

Like you are Yeah.

833

I, I think it just, it went deeper

rather than ever, like, yeah.

834

I never really rejected it, although

I know that's some people's path.

835

What about you, mark?

836

Mark Buchannan: Yeah, I, I was similar.

837

Um, yeah, because, because

I, I became a Christian.

838

I, it's, it's a weird thing.

839

I was talking to somebody last week

about this, but I got convicted of

840

sin, but I was only three and a half.

841

And you just think, trying to

think now what, what it was

842

that I did that was so awful.

843

But I think it was just.

844

Spiritually, the Lord showed me my nature.

845

Um, and I just knew I

needed to be right with him.

846

So I'd made that decision

very, very early on.

847

And then I had a tremendous

support network around me.

848

'cause you know, my father was a

pastor and we had, we saw lots of

849

amazing things happen in the old days.

850

We used to call it living by

Faith where he had no salary.

851

But you know, God would just

miraculously provide so.

852

I had a phenomenal foundation phase.

853

So when I did leave home at 17

to get a job, um, and move to the

854

other side of the country, um,

I had really good foundations.

855

So I think for me, I, I didn't

have the sort of rebellious

856

phase at that point either.

857

But I think for me, the challenge

was, it's all I'd ever known.

858

And I just assumed, well, it'll just be

like this for the rest of my life, but

859

I know that God needed it to go deeper.

860

So then I encountered some

very difficult things in life.

861

So I went into them as a Christian.

862

But I think being a disciple where

it's that or nothing, that came

863

quite a lot later, really when I

got into circumstances that I just.

864

Couldn't cope with on my own.

865

Um, and that made me

really dig deeper into God.

866

Um, and then because, and again, it

wasn't, I didn't choose this, but I

867

ended up sort of falling into a job

where I was out in the Middle East and

868

I was smuggling Bibles and I was rubbing

shoulders with nameless heroes, you

869

know, who were risking their lives every

day, and it was life or death to them.

870

Then I realized, I thought,

oh my word, you know, I'm.

871

Quite shallow actually as a Christian.

872

So I'm committed and I, I haven't

swerved, but I haven't allowed

873

Jesus to penetrate the very depths

of my being the way he wants to.

874

And I think that it was like changing

two or three gears almost in one go

875

where I just thought, yeah, I, I,

I just don't want anything trivial.

876

I, I need it to go deep.

877

Um.

878

But I was 30, 32 by then.

879

So you know, in a way I'd been a

Christian already for what, 29 years.

880

And now you look back and you think, God,

maybe I could have started that sooner.

881

But you know, God got me in the end,

which I suppose is the main thing.

882

Anna Kettle: I think that's a

really lovely thing about the

883

way God works though, isn't it?

884

You must said it before Matt, but

it's, it's that thing of like,

885

God's not in a hurry, you know?

886

Like in the way he works in our lives.

887

He didn't, he never forces himself on us.

888

He, I dunno, you so gentle and so

gracious and yeah, just kind of

889

works at the pace we we're willing

to work at in a lot of ways.

890

Um, yeah, I think just, yeah, he's just.

891

He is not in a hurry, is he?

892

To kind of No.

893

Mark Buchannan: No, not at all.

894

I'm intrigued.

895

Uh, we've got a couple of minutes left.

896

Let me ask you both this question,

uh, mark, we'll start with you.

897

Um, in the church when we talk

about discipleship, now, quite

898

often we have this idea of

somebody discipling us, right?

899

Who disciple do you disciple somebody?

900

Does somebody disciple you?

901

Um, I guess, what's your

experience with that?

902

How important is it to have somebody maybe

who's a bit further on in God who's a bit

903

older maybe, or a bit more experienced in

some of these things to get alongside you?

904

What does discipleship look like for you?

905

Uh, I'm kind of curious.

906

Maybe you want to go first?

907

Yeah.

908

Um,

909

I'm a bit skeptical of.

910

Most church discipleship

programs, um, it's like church

911

leadership programs as well.

912

They just throw information at you and

you think, you know, and often that's from

913

people who've never led anything other

than a, you know, a, a bit of a church.

914

So that, that sounds dismissive.

915

I don't mean it that way, but

I think people opening up their

916

homes and letting you get really

up close so that you would see.

917

The difference between what

they say and what they do.

918

Uh, to me that's very exciting

in a discipleship context.

919

Um, because you know, it, it's great

to stand on a platform on a Sunday and,

920

and share what you've found in the word,

and that's important, but I, I think it.

921

We, you know, if it's a scale where it's,

it's knowledge up this end of the scale

922

and you know, experience trial and error,

what we would call coaching in the secular

923

world, the church is way down this end of

the scale, but I think real discipleship

924

actually lives up this end of the scale.

925

So I think those who've walked

the walk for a long time.

926

Opening up their homes and their lives

to people who are young in the faith.

927

That would really excite me.

928

And I think that would actually,

you know, help people become

929

better disciples of Jesus.

930

And it's a, you know, for the

disciples in the New Testament.

931

They got to hang out with the actual real

Jesus in a way that we can't physically.

932

So our experience of Jesus is the word

under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

933

But then the testimony of Christians

who've been walking longer than

934

we have, and I think trans, um,

transferring that knowledge and

935

experience across the generations.

936

You know, it's one of the Psalms, isn't

it said, but talks about one generation.

937

Sharing the deeds of the Lord

with the next generation.

938

That I think is the missing

bit of discipleship, and it's

939

actually very easy to do.

940

We just need to give it a go and not

overly organize it, but just say, well,

941

you know, here's what happened to me and

here's how we handled it in our family.

942

So I think, yeah, we could do a much,

much better job of discipleship in church.

943

I think.

944

Anna Kettle: Yeah, I, I

was just trying to think.

945

I, I mean, I've certainly had seasons of

life where I've had kind of one-to-one

946

discipleship where I've maybe just made

a commitment to meet with someone who's

947

a bit, as Mark says, a bit of an old

Christian, someone who's a bit further

948

on in a walk with God and just a.

949

Further on life stage as well, like

maybe married with kids before I was,

950

um, and sort of just agreed to regularly

meet up, pray, kind of chat about how

951

my life's going, anything I might be

struggling with, with that person.

952

And, and so I've had, I've had

seasons of life where I've had those

953

specific relationships in place.

954

That's been quite helpful.

955

Um.

956

I wouldn't say that's

necessarily compulsory or needed.

957

You know, I don't have it right now.

958

It's, you know, I think in different

seasons of life that can be helpful.

959

But equally, as you say, sometimes it's

just that living with people day by

960

day, hanging out, you know, sometimes I

think it can be much more peer to peer.

961

Yeah.

962

Like at the moment I'm part of a

small group of women who are all.

963

Kind of in the same life

stage as me right now.

964

Similar age, similar.

965

We're all quite mutual Christians, and we

meet up every few weeks and just catch up,

966

pray together, share what's going on in

our lives, and just kind of encourage each

967

other and push each other on a little bit.

968

Without anyone kind of leading

another, we kind of lead one and,

969

you know, it's, it's peer led.

970

Um, I think there's lots

of ways you can do it.

971

And you know, there's other, like,

I think you and Sharon are really

972

good at it, Matt, like you just

open your home a lot and just have

973

people over to hang out and just.

974

Be with you and see how you utilize.

975

And it's exactly what Mark said

and I think that's amazing.

976

Um, so yeah, I think there's

lots of different ways you can

977

do it and that maybe it depends

on the season and what you need.

978

But yeah, I certainly think when you

are a new Christian, it really helps

979

to regularly hang out with some people

who can kind of invest in you and

980

encourage you and your faith and yeah.

981

What about you?

982

Mark Buchannan: Yeah, I, I think

it's an interesting one, isn't it?

983

I, but like I said, 'cause I became

a Christian when I was 18, so I, I

984

had that, um, discipleship program

and, and like you Mark, I'm a little

985

bit skeptical of church programs on

discipleship, you know, like, um.

986

But at the same time, uh, we're

gonna be talking about community

987

next week, the week after that we're

gonna be talking about spiritual

988

fathers and spiritual mothers.

989

And all of this is sort of connected in,

they're not mutually exclusive topics.

990

They're all connected.

991

I think it's really good to have, um.

992

Regular connection with somebody

who is older in the Lord than

993

you, um, and who can speak into

your life and challenge you.

994

Um, I have that with Dave Connolly.

995

Dave Cony and I get together quite a lot.

996

Most of the time he tells me off

of something stupid that I've done.

997

Um, he's, he's great, Dave.

998

Love the bones off him, but I'm talk

more about that in a couple weeks.

999

Um, but like you say, I

think it's also important.

00:51:01,620 --> 00:51:02,670

It's, it's incumbent on me.

00:51:02,670 --> 00:51:06,300

I've been a Christian 30 years, I've

learned a few things, so I need to

00:51:06,300 --> 00:51:10,080

open up my home and invite people

who are younger in their faith.

00:51:10,470 --> 00:51:12,480

Um, and we do that in community as well.

00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:13,920

So we, we run a community.

00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,290

If you, by the way, if you're watching

and you wanna get involved with our

00:51:16,290 --> 00:51:18,030

communities, do drop me line, let me know.

00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,070

Um, get involved with communities,

a lot of young Christians

00:51:21,070 --> 00:51:22,240

in those, which is great.

00:51:22,780 --> 00:51:26,080

Um, encouraging them on in the Lord.

00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:30,310

And I think that's incumbent upon

me to not only be a disciple, but to

00:51:30,310 --> 00:51:32,800

help somebody else in their journey.

00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,740

And I think that's one of the, the

amazing things about Christianity

00:51:35,740 --> 00:51:39,760

is it's, it's about giving, but

it's also about receiving, isn't it?

00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:42,190

And, and the two sort of phases.

00:51:42,190 --> 00:51:43,150

And you look at the.

00:51:44,535 --> 00:51:48,105

The relationship between

Timothy and Paul, for example.

00:51:49,395 --> 00:51:50,475

Uh, would be a good one.

00:51:50,475 --> 00:51:55,185

You know, like, um, they sort of have

this really interesting relationship in

00:51:55,185 --> 00:51:59,205

the Bible and in terms of how they relate

to one another and therefore how Timothy

00:51:59,205 --> 00:52:01,694

learns to relate to, to other people.

00:52:02,384 --> 00:52:03,884

Um, and so, yeah, I'd.

00:52:04,050 --> 00:52:05,970

Discipleship is definitely not a program.

00:52:06,420 --> 00:52:10,620

Um, Jesus did not have the, as far as I'm

aware, Jesus, correct me if I'm wrong, he

00:52:10,620 --> 00:52:16,530

did not have the book, you know, 101 ways

to disciple your, uh, your friends here.

00:52:16,980 --> 00:52:18,480

I think he just did life with them.

00:52:19,050 --> 00:52:23,550

And so for me, discipleship is

about doing life with people.

00:52:23,985 --> 00:52:29,595

Um, that have this common belief in

Christ, like you say, who will spur

00:52:29,595 --> 00:52:32,985

you on, whether that's with your

girlfriends, whether that's in a church

00:52:32,985 --> 00:52:34,245

community, whatever that looks like.

00:52:34,245 --> 00:52:35,865

I think that's just

super, super important.

00:52:38,085 --> 00:52:42,015

So, uh, I think, uh, mark,

have you got anything notes

00:52:42,015 --> 00:52:43,035

you wanna throw in there, bud?

00:52:45,525 --> 00:52:45,765

No.

00:52:45,765 --> 00:52:51,255

It just urge everybody go as radical

as you dare and then push a bit harder.

00:52:51,345 --> 00:52:53,355

Um, it's.

00:52:54,015 --> 00:52:55,785

It's scary, but it's phenomenal.

00:52:55,875 --> 00:52:56,625

And you think Yeah.

00:52:56,835 --> 00:53:00,195

And if we don't do it, we will

never really understand what

00:53:00,405 --> 00:53:01,755

the Lord has in store for us.

00:53:01,755 --> 00:53:05,745

So I think yeah, it's, let's

treat it as if it's not optional.

00:53:07,515 --> 00:53:08,235

So true.

00:53:08,745 --> 00:53:09,225

So true.

00:53:09,225 --> 00:53:11,955

That goes radical as you

dare them push a bit harder.

00:53:12,555 --> 00:53:14,265

Um, might be the title of the talk.

00:53:16,335 --> 00:53:16,845

Anna Kettle: It's a good one.

00:53:17,445 --> 00:53:17,625

Mark Buchannan: Yeah.

00:53:17,625 --> 00:53:18,135

Good title.

00:53:18,375 --> 00:53:19,485

Anything else from you, Ms.

00:53:19,485 --> 00:53:19,725

Anna?

00:53:20,460 --> 00:53:24,000

Anna Kettle: No, I think we've probably

covered it all, but I guess I just

00:53:24,060 --> 00:53:28,050

finished by encouraging everyone to,

you know, if you want to go a bit

00:53:28,050 --> 00:53:32,820

deeper in your faith and some of what

we've said, spoke or resonates with

00:53:32,820 --> 00:53:36,330

you, then I think seek people out,

whether that's through Crowd Church

00:53:36,330 --> 00:53:40,800

or people you know, kind of in your

own community or friends, whatever.

00:53:41,130 --> 00:53:43,765

Just someone that you respect

and you think, wow, I really.

00:53:44,515 --> 00:53:48,295

I really love their faith, or I really

respect them as like, I see something

00:53:48,295 --> 00:53:52,675

in them that I would like to learn

more about, like seek these people out

00:53:52,675 --> 00:53:57,655

and just, you know, say, can I go for

a coffee or, you know, come over for

00:53:57,655 --> 00:53:59,905

dinner one day or just, you know, like.

00:54:00,279 --> 00:54:03,610

Yeah, just try and seek those

people out and yeah, I don't, I

00:54:03,610 --> 00:54:06,730

don't think discipleship was ever

meant to be, and following Jesus

00:54:06,730 --> 00:54:08,319

was ever meant to be a solo sport.

00:54:08,620 --> 00:54:12,490

You know, it's not, I don't think it's

coincidence that Jesus disciple had 12

00:54:12,490 --> 00:54:15,069

disciples, like they did it as a group.

00:54:15,069 --> 00:54:15,850

They were like a team.

00:54:15,850 --> 00:54:17,230

It wasn't a solo sport.

00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:20,110

So yeah, I'd say just seek people out.

00:54:20,115 --> 00:54:20,335

Yeah.

00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:21,640

Mark Buchannan: Go for it.

00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:25,149

Um, I would exactly that, right?

00:54:25,149 --> 00:54:27,790

The one of the things that's really

impressed me recently is a couple of

00:54:27,790 --> 00:54:32,259

guys from the States actually who have

reached out to me, um, and said, listen,

00:54:32,319 --> 00:54:34,540

I need to talk to you on a regular basis.

00:54:34,540 --> 00:54:35,980

Can we, can we do that?

00:54:36,460 --> 00:54:37,720

Um, over Zoom?

00:54:37,750 --> 00:54:40,029

There's some things they want

to go through Christian guys.

00:54:40,359 --> 00:54:41,529

And I'm like, sure, let's do it.

00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:45,310

Um, and it's been great

and I, I've enjoyed it.

00:54:45,675 --> 00:54:47,475

Hopefully they get some stuff outta it.

00:54:47,475 --> 00:54:50,355

It's been quite challenging, um,

because we, you know, we talk quite

00:54:50,355 --> 00:54:51,645

straight, which is quite helpful.

00:54:51,975 --> 00:54:53,235

But do seek people out.

00:54:53,295 --> 00:54:57,525

They, they're just, and if you can't

think of who to seek out, pray and

00:54:57,525 --> 00:54:59,985

God will definitely open those doors.

00:55:00,375 --> 00:55:02,565

But listen, thank you

for joining us next week.

00:55:02,565 --> 00:55:05,835

Like I say, we are

talking about coin Onia.

00:55:05,915 --> 00:55:10,235

This Greek word, uh, which gets

translated as community or fellowship,

00:55:10,235 --> 00:55:11,855

but it's so much more than that.

00:55:12,305 --> 00:55:15,904

Um, we're gonna look at what

happened in the book of Acts that

00:55:15,904 --> 00:55:20,795

radically changed the face of

history, uh, with this whole topic.

00:55:20,795 --> 00:55:22,535

So really looking forward to that.

00:55:22,535 --> 00:55:23,404

I think you're back next week.

00:55:24,125 --> 00:55:24,785

Anna Kettle: I think I am.

00:55:24,785 --> 00:55:26,795

Yeah, I haven't actually checked

the diary for next week yet.

00:55:26,795 --> 00:55:27,085

Yeah, you are.

00:55:27,085 --> 00:55:27,650

But I think I am.

00:55:27,815 --> 00:55:28,085

Mark Buchannan: You are.

00:55:28,085 --> 00:55:30,575

'cause I was talking to Sharon about it

earlier 'cause she's on next week as well.

00:55:30,575 --> 00:55:31,955

So do come join us.

00:55:33,485 --> 00:55:36,035

Do come join us uh, next week for that.

00:55:36,455 --> 00:55:38,705

Uh, Zoe, can you put

in the comments again?

00:55:38,705 --> 00:55:40,175

The link to the Google meet.

00:55:40,175 --> 00:55:43,475

We will see you in there,

uh, in a couple of minutes.

00:55:43,475 --> 00:55:46,055

But Mark, my friend, thank

you so much for doing this.

00:55:46,445 --> 00:55:48,785

Uh, it's been an interesting

tech journey, that's for sure.

00:55:48,815 --> 00:55:51,365

Uh, it's been great

having you, uh, join us.

00:55:51,430 --> 00:55:52,240

Live.

00:55:52,660 --> 00:55:54,520

Um, how's it been for you, by the way?

00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:56,859

Yeah, really, really good.

00:55:56,950 --> 00:55:57,279

Yeah.

00:55:57,339 --> 00:55:59,200

Uh, technology's amazing, isn't it?

00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,839

But yeah, and just good to chat

it through with the two of you as

00:56:01,839 --> 00:56:03,879

well, and, uh, share life together.

00:56:03,879 --> 00:56:05,620

So yeah, thanks ever

so much for having me.

00:56:05,620 --> 00:56:06,040

I've loved it.

00:56:06,555 --> 00:56:07,185

That's great.

00:56:07,275 --> 00:56:10,665

We'll see you next term, uh,

and we'll see you next week.

00:56:10,935 --> 00:56:12,404

I'll see you next week as well.

00:56:12,705 --> 00:56:15,674

Uh, if I don't see you in the

Google meets, have a phenomenal

00:56:15,674 --> 00:56:17,055

week wherever you are in the world.

00:56:17,415 --> 00:56:21,674

Um, but for Anna, from me, from Mark,

have a beautiful week, a phenomenal

00:56:21,674 --> 00:56:22,785

week, wherever you are in the world.

00:56:23,235 --> 00:56:23,665

We'll see you next time.

00:56:24,125 --> 00:56:24,560

Bye for now.