In this episode of How Art is Born we welcome Colorado-based multi-disciplinary artist, activist, and "disruptor," Gregg Deal, (Pyramid Lake Paiute Tribe). His work is informed by his Native identity and includes exhaustive critiques of American society, politics, popular culture and history. Through paintings, murals, performance work, filmmaking, spoken word, and more, Deal invites the viewer to confront these issues both in the present and the past tense. 

Host, R. Alan Brooks and Deal, discuss his life growing up in Utah, the early days of his career as an artist and student in the Washington, D.C. area, the value of having diverse work experience, and the impact of having good mentors and support systems.

R. Alan Brooks:

Hey, I'm R. Alan Brooks. This is,

Dele Johnson:

I'm Dele Johnson, and I'm editor, producer of How Art Is Born. And you know, Alan is the host.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. So you see more of me. But Dele makes all the cool stuff happen behind the scenes and in addition to getting cool guests and stuff like that. So this episode we're doing we talked, I talked to Gregg Deal Gregg with three G's. Three

Dele Johnson:

G's. Yeah. No, my middle name is Greg. I didn't know that. But it's only with two G's.

R. Alan Brooks:

Three Gs are a lot of responsibility. It's a lot . So you know there was a lot that Gregg and I had in common being both Gen X talking about being isolated. We both found a lot of comfort in comics. His art took a vastly different route than mine but we also found a lot of comfort in hip hop and then him at punk as well. Mm-Hmm. . And you'll see a lot of that stuff kind of manifest in his art. But I think it was really cool to, to talk about like, just what it meant for him to be a native artist and how all these different influences kind of distilled into his art practice these days.

Dele Johnson:

Yeah. And he shared a lot about his journey working in sign making, working in Native American nonprofit organizations in Washington, D.C. Working at the Smithsonian American Indian Museum. Yeah. and, and his journey through all of that. And talking about representation too. Mm-Hmm. and Gregg is our first Native American artist guest on How Art is Born. So expanding the level of representation and the stories that we can tell on this podcast. So that's pretty cool too.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. Yeah. I'll say like, the number one thing for me in hosting this podcast is being able to, to look in, like, into a window of other people's journey and, and see how their art fits into their lives and their growth as a human being. It's inspiring, but it's dope to see from all these different aspects and if it, it sort of like, sort of feeds my soul. Mm-Hmm. , this was definitely one of those interviews that fed my soul, so,

Dele Johnson:

Yeah. And it was, it was great to be a fly on the wall for that conversation and, and hear his journey. So, really cool.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. So I think you guys will enjoy it. So check it out. Welcome to How Art Born, a podcast from the Museum of Contemporary Art Denver, about the origins of artists and their creative and artistic practices. I'm your host, r Allen Brooks, artist, writer, and professor. Today I'm joined by Denver based multidisciplinary artist, activist, and disruptor Gregg deals. Say hello.

Gregg Deal:

Hi.

R. Alan Brooks:

Alright. So, to, to start us off, can you tell us a little bit about who you are?

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. well, I, you know, I always start off with saying that like I'm a husband, a father an artist a member of my tribal community. I say sometimes activist always a disruptor. Hmm. And yeah. Creator,

R. Alan Brooks:

Let on. Yeah. where are you, where you from originally?

Gregg Deal:

I grew up in Utah. I was, I was born in Tennessee. Was only there till I was like two, that's where my father's from. And then we moved to Utah where my mom grew up and ended up in Park City for most of my growing up years.

R. Alan Brooks:

How, how, admit to a deal of ignorance about Utah, but how, how was it for you growing up there? It

Gregg Deal:

Was terrible. . Yeah. No, it was really terrible. Park City, you know, there's three major ski resorts up there. Okay. The Sundance Film Festival rolls through there. It's sort of the Aspen of Utah. Yeah. And and so yeah, there's a lot of privilege, a lot of money. And my parents, there's that like Dave Chappelle joke and we're like, my parents made just enough money for us to be broke right. Around like rich white people. And but it was a small town. My graduating class was like a hundred kids. Hmm. there was no diversity. There was like one black kid a a Mexican girl that I knew, and then everybody who was actually from Mexico were sort of sequestered Yeah. Separately. So they, they were like seGreggated away from everybody else. So it was like me and my sister and like maybe two other people that's interesting of color. I knew one Jewish girl and that was, that was about it. That something. Yeah. No, that

R. Alan Brooks:

Was it. All right. So we're gonna talk about your artistic journey in a second, but I want to know so growing up in that environment, how did you sort of find your way to connecting strongly with your culture, your, you know, heritage, et cetera?

Gregg Deal:

I mean, I'm, I'm a child of the eighties and nineties. Yeah. So especially like, you know, the, my formative years being the late eighties Right. And into the nineties that means I'm being influenced by hip hop and punk rock and, you know, like spike Lee was a huge influence. Like, seeing the autobiography at Malcolm X was mind blowing to me. Public enemy was just mind blowing to me. Okay. And those things led me to Alex Haley's autobiography of Malcolm X. Right. And then starting to ask some pretty serious questions that led me sort of back into my own people, my own culture and mm-hmm. and recognizing that there's value in those places because I was seeing value in other black and brown people. Yeah. sort of articulating it artistically. And, and that really that changed my life. Hmm.

R. Alan Brooks:

It's interesting cuz we're, you know, we're both Gen X, right? Yeah. So like, I think how far the world has come in a time, I feel like we've been alive, right? Yeah. Like, I think about, you know, five years old, my pop forbade me to watch Johnny Weiss, Marler Tarzan, like the black and white Tarzan. Yeah. Yeah. And I snuck and watched him anyway. And I came to him one day and I was like, dad, are white men stronger than black men? And he was like, you've been watching Tarzan, haven't you, ? Cause Johnny Weis smaller, he would like jump down into a group of Africans and just pushed them over with one hand and they would all fall, you know? Yeah. and like to come from that to like where we are now. Mm-Hmm. You know, I mean, and so obviously because of your art and the, the voice you have and the stuff you've worked in, it makes me think about native representation very specifically. Yeah. Cuz like you know, I think probably one, one of the first Indian repre, I did air quotes for people who were just listening, but image that I saw was the, the guy who was crying for pollution.

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, I mean, so I guess there's a couple things. One is am America just doesn't have really context of, like, even now Americans in general don't have context of what a native person is. My mom's generation they were either very proud or they're very ashamed of who they were, and my mom was the latter. And so I had to figure a lot of that stuff out on my own. Yeah. representation, you know, was Iron Ice, Cody, the Crying Indian Mm. As well as Las Mohicans. Right. You know, the dances with wolves, sports mascots, Looney Tunes had some pretty Oh yeah. Crazy representation that, that was awful for everybody, not just native people.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right. Because there's the whole thing with Bugs Bunny and Blackface

Gregg Deal:

Scene

Mammy. No, totally. And, and, you know, Tom and Jerry and all that stuff, but yeah, no, I, I had to figure it out and I got my hands on some books and heard some music and it just kind of got the ball rolling. But I also think about like my kids now where they don't have to deal with that. I mean Right. There's still issues of stereotype and representation, but they also have access to representation. They can look it up, they can find it, and there's a native Twitter, there's Native TikTok, and there's a native Instagram. So the, that representation is there in a way that just simply was not for our generation.

R. Alan Brooks:

All right. Well, I look forward to hearing more about this, but what was the first art that spoke to you?

Gregg Deal:

Oh gosh.

R. Alan Brooks:

And if you can't remember a specific thing that just sort of a period, like, you know,

Gregg Deal:

I mean, comic book stuff was something that was important. Yeah. Like a lot of my artistic journey was not art school. I didn't have an art teacher Right. That liked me, and I was not real good with structure. And so for me it was like comic books, comic book drawing. Also the storylines go with that cuz it really, and this is, and this is what's really hard because now, like I know more about like the superhero sort of genre and Right. And how rooted that is in, in White supremacy, but also like, know that there is also sort of like a being on the outs story, the, the person that's different and is not fitting in. And so that, that spoke to

R. Alan Brooks:

Me, are you doing X-Men?

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. Yeah. And that word in it wouldn't escape, you know? Yeah. Like being bullied at school and then being able to read comic books and sort of escape from that stuff. And, but I, I, but that's where I learned to draw. I learned to draw, you know, muscles Yeah. And heads and, you know, all that, even though it's, you know, character

R. Alan Brooks:

Exaggerated. Right. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, same thing for me. You know, like that's, I mean, comics were it man. And yeah. I think being somebody who liked words and liked art and felt like an outcast Yeah. Comic books had both and then hiphop, you know mm-hmm. because even though people act as if hiphop lacks intelligence, it is a place to like engage in a love of words, you know? Yeah. So it got me deep into it, so I was like battle rapping and stuff for a lot years and all that, you know?

Gregg Deal:

That's awesome. Yeah. My, I was having this conversation with my kids cuz you know, de La Soul getting, getting their catalog and releasing it. And so I'm, I tell my kids these stories about all these groups and where they come from and i's just like, when they did Three Feet High Rising, they were 20 years old. Right. Like they were kids and how innovative that stuff was. So yeah. That stuff's no joke. Those are, those are innovative creators that made an entire generation of music that didn't exist until they made it. And that's crazy.

R. Alan Brooks:

So, okay. Just for the sake of the comic bo geek part I want to, you know, I was thinking about like what native representation was like, and, and these won't be the only questions I ask you, I promise, but

Gregg Deal:

Yeah, no,

R. Alan Brooks:

You're good. But native representation in comics, I was thinking about Danny Moon Star. Mm. I was thinking about what's the dude who died, who was like part of X-Men? He had the, ah

Gregg Deal:

Man, oh, I don't even remember,

R. Alan Brooks:

But he was with the like original, like the original reboot, so Yeah. You know, and he had like a Thunderbird

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. For me there was a GI Joe that was like native

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh yeah, I remember him.

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. And, and there was a GI Joe comic books too. Yeah. And so

R. Alan Brooks:

Dog, no. Yeah,

Gregg Deal:

I don't, I think you're right. I think he did have an animal, cuz that speaks to the, you know, the animal tropes. Right. and it was also like Justice League, the patchy chief, patchy chief just like yells at, you know, Chuck a nut truck, which is like this nonsensical word to like, grow really big and Right. Space Ghost, coast to coast. Like, redid that in the most hilarious way I saw that. Yeah. It was great.

R. Alan Brooks:

Couldn't and couldn't en emerge.

Gregg Deal:

Yep. I remember that.

R. Alan Brooks:

, Google it pretty,

Gregg Deal:

Yep.

R. Alan Brooks:

. Yeah. Okay. Cuz you know, I think for myself, like reading comics on Go and trying to find black characters, you know, like there was always kind of, you know, there were, you know, they'd be in the background, they would be ones I wanted to know more about, you know, and it just, just an interesting journey being not a white boy reading comics through the eighties and nineties, you

Gregg Deal:

Know? Yeah. My impression on comics for like native representation is it, I don't think it was as deliberate as it was, you know, cuz when Luke Cage came out, there was a whole sort of blacksploitation Yeah. Black movement that was happening there. Right. Like, I don't, I don't think the native characters and comics were, were, were quite as thought out and informed. Yeah. and so the representation was there, but it like, leaned on a lot of tropes and Right. That's been changing super dramatically in the last, you know, 10, 20 years. Right. And it's it's really, really cool to see natives actually inform characters and comic books.

R. Alan Brooks:

That's dope, man. Yeah. Yeah. I guess the only other person I was thinking of is there was somebody in Legion of Superheroes, but I don't remember a name

Gregg Deal:

Either. Yeah. You know, I, I, I'm not gonna lie Wolverine and Spider-Man were like always my guys. Nice. And I just always thought about how their powers, it wasn't them, it was their powers. Right. And just how, you know, having that stuff would, again, being an escape, you know? Right.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay. So you're reading the comics and you start drawing. What was the point that like, you identified with like, I want to make art, I'm an artist. Like, what was that like for you?

Gregg Deal:

I don't, I don't think I was ever in a place, like I was never in a place where that was ever given to me as an option. Mm-Hmm. . And I grew up in, you know, a working class home. My father was a car mechanic, my mom was a bus driver mm-hmm. and sometimes answered phones for a chiropractor. Right. You know, in, in the afternoons. But like, I never thought about school. I never thought about the future. I was mostly just trying to survive. Right. Like, with the amount of bullying and the amount of stuff that was going on, all I was doing was skating and drawing and going to shows and and going to like concerts and stuff. And so I was just sort of day to day and I wasn't really thinking about that. I knew that, that the creative capital that I could create by drawing would like get me next to the girl that I liked.

Right. You know, or, you know, create friends and stuff. Mm-Hmm. the idea that I could do that as a profession. Like, I, I had this sort of fleeting thought that like, oh, I could be an animator, maybe I could be an animator. Mm-Hmm. but I did terrible in school and had no encouragement to, to better myself or to, to learn those skills properly. Yeah. until I got older and just sort of exposed myself to it. I kind of had a tough upbringing. So I, my father was an artist and he was like a photographer and he was a graphic designer. He did all these things, but, you know, he had me when I was 19 years old mm-hmm. and my mom never really valued school. I mean, to the degree that when I did get in college and I called her and I said, Hey, I got into a university.

And she's like, why ? Wow. And, and so I just, I don't think that she really understood the value of education and my dad wanted to do something and never, never was able to get there until him and my mom divorced and then he went to school and he did the things he wanted to do. And so he finished his time on this earth doing a job that he loved to do that he went to college for. And but when I was a kid, the man was, he was a hard man. He was angry, so there wasn't like I would bring stuff to him, Uhhuh because I wanted his approval. Right. And he was always dismissive about it and just never said anything. So I had this thing sort of in spite of my environment, but at the same time I got these photographs that he took when I was, you know, as young as two, three, you know, all the way up of me drawing, like he took pictures of me drawing.

R. Alan Brooks:

That's so

Gregg Deal:

Interesting. Yeah. So it was, it was a really sort of clash of I don't know, statements that were being made in that as well. So it wasn't until I got older that I took it. Seriously.

[AD] R. Alan Brooks:

MCA Denver at the Holiday Theater is a year-round performance and event space that is an extension of the Museum of Contemporary Art Denver. The Holiday is home to a spectrum of creative expression, including original productions, live music, film screenings, artist talks, and serial programming like Mixed Taste and Cinema Azteca, as well as performances and events presented by other cultural organizations. The theater's also available for private rentals. Visit mcadenver.org/holidaytheater to learn more.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay. So is this cuz you talked about how when you got older you found your way to sort of connecting with culture Yeah. Like your culture specifically. Was that parallel to you connecting with the idea of yourself as an artist?

Gregg Deal:

No the native connection built in high school. Okay. really just full force. Like I forced my mom to recognize it. Mm-Hmm. who worked really hard to not recognize it. Yeah. And but my, my dad kicked me out when I was 17. Mm-Hmm. So, you know, I dropped outta high school and was just working and I mean, he, they taught me to work so I knew how to work. Yeah. And and so I worked and did a little bit of drawing here and there. And it wasn't until I was 24 and I, and, and I was doing murals and graffiti like in the mix Yeah. In all of that. And which of course, you know, in the early nineties was not, was not respected. Right. It was given no value at all. And but when I met my wife and, you know, I went to college, I was 24 and that's when like suddenly I had access to

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh, I see.

Gregg Deal:

Studios and professors and all kinds of stuff, and it just opened everything up for me. What

R. Alan Brooks:

Did you go to school for?

Gregg Deal:

I went for painting. Okay. so I went to George Mason University, which is in Fairfax, Virginia, right outside of DC. Okay. And yeah, I was a film major to start. My wife said I wasn't gonna make any money on that and I should changed my major . So I, and I took a, I had to take an art class, I had to take a, you know, 1 0 1 class and Right. The professor saw something and he was a total jerk to everybody, but he was really nice to me because he saw some talents. Yeah. And and so I changed it to, to graphic design. Okay. And but I got really into drawing and painting and even to the degree that I went to the department head for graphic design and was just like, Hey, like I know the graphic design requirement is to create this publication, but like, could I do a show with my paintings and then I'll just build all the collateral materials to go with it, to, you know, to, to appease the graphic design requirement.

So I was like, I'll build a website, I'll build a brochure, I'll like, do all the things. Yeah. Negotiating, man. Yeah. And she got really mad and was just like, sounds like you wanna be a painter or not a graphic designer. And she, like, without my permission or anything, she, she kicked me out of the program Damn. And made me an art major and I was like, all right, well I guess this is happening. And I couldn't double major. So I have the same amount of classes as the graphic design students, but I had to take a couple extras, you know, for the painting

R. Alan Brooks:

Requirements. That's crazy, man.

Gregg Deal:

Yeah, it was a little crazy

R. Alan Brooks:

. I mean, it's interesting cuz you know, like so many people's story, like they have this well, like the power educators, right? Yeah. Like how they can like open you up to things that can show you new resources, exposure to new ideas. Yeah. And then the, the purpose of you being in school is to grow and to learn what it is that you, what you want to be your path. Yeah. And so for her to be like, angry with you about it and to like, sort of penalize you for

Gregg Deal:

It. And I was hungry. Yeah. Man, I was so hungry. But I also recognize that like, I wanted to be a painter. There's this graffiti, you know, background so I understand, you know, spray paint Right. And, and how that works. But being able to do graphic design, being able to do film editing, like I took all the core film classes Yeah. When I was a film major. So I wanted to know how to do all of those things because I think I just inherently knew I'd be able to apply them to my practice. Yeah. And I do. And I have dope.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. Okay. So you're in school and you've gone from this not having access. Suddenly you have access to all these things. You're in this painting program. What was it like, man did, like, did, did it feel like the world opened up to you in a different way?

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when I was young I legitimately had a big chip on my shoulder because I think I was just a little prick man. Ah, I, I really just had a big chip on my shoulder. And as I've gotten older, I'm just thinking back and I'm just like, oh man. Like I was a total dick . And and I, and I feel bad about that, but I think it was also just very defensive and just, and had a, a big chip on my shoulder, like my father.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yeah. Based on what you've shared, it's not like you had

Gregg Deal:

Reason to be there. Yeah. So yeah. I, I just was not structured. I couldn't handle it very well. Yeah. Like somebody would tell me how to do something and I would just get like kind of mad about it. Ah. And and so I just, like, I had an art class and had an art teacher and, and she, I didn't handle the structure, but also she was just a total jerk to me about everything. And, and now its like on Facebook, she'll send me messages on Facebook and like, I'm so proud of you. And I'm like, what were you talking about about Right , like, because because nobody in high school helped me. Right. there was a couple art teachers and none of them helped me and they were all like, pretty biased against me. Right. And so yeah, when I, when I got to college yeah, it was a whole new world like it, and it wasn't just a professor kindly saying something to me cuz DC's super diverse mm-hmm.

and so the, the biases are just not the same as they are in Utah. Right. So having a professor take me and, and show me to do something or seeing a value in me and my abilities changed everything. Hmm. And, and, and then on top of that, you know, I have access to the National Gallery and the hirshhorn and like I'm seeing real art in person and then we have to go to New York once a semester. So I'm like, oh my going up to the Guggenheim, going up to the Met. Like it was Yeah. Moma crazy how just mind blowing it was. And, and I maintain this even now that like our youth, you know, particularly youth of color, like they don't need any of us to tell them what to do. Mm-Hmm. , they just need to see what's possible. Right. Because seeing what's possible changed everything for me. Hmm.

R. Alan Brooks:

Yo that's like the pool quote of the episode right there. you know, it's interesting man to hear you talk about your high school experience cuz I definitely had teachers shitting on me for drawing and comic book style and, and hip hop. You know, and it's funny that those two things that were like terrible, like, you know, cast down low art in the eighties are now kind of running the world, you know?

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. Yeah. And I, I think like the aesthetic of punk rockus, like kind of in that same vein. Yeah, I agree. And yeah. I mean I, I was already on the outside so those things just like put me back on the outside. I mean, the, the first the first record that I bought for on my own with my own money was, was Dale Souls Nice. Three Feet High Rising. And, and just the oddity of those guys spoke to me, but like, they were also talking about a cultural experience that I didn't know. But there is some parallels in just being broke. Yeah. You know, being broke in New York is probably not that much different than being broke, you know, in Utah. Right. And and so those experiences spoke a lot to me. So yeah, I was being told that those things were not good or that it was anti-social culture. That's what they called

R. Alan Brooks:

It back then.

Gregg Deal:

Right. And and it wasn't like those things, those things saved my life. I think I honestly and truly believe that I probably would've taken my own life if it for hip hop and punk rock.

R. Alan Brooks:

It's so interesting that you mentioned Dale Lasso Man, cuz that, that they're like one of my favorite groups. Right. And I entered and won a ping pong competition in school , because De Lasel is dead. the CD was the prize. Yeah. And I was like, I gotta win this. You know, I need Dead Las Soul is Dead. And that, that , it feels like one of the weirdest way to get a rap album, but it feels like the right way to get a dead Las Soul album. Do you know ?

Gregg Deal:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah. You know, rest Peace Truo. Yes. And just what a massive loss because they are very clearly having a resurgence right now. Right. And I'm like sharing with my kids in real time Yeah. What I experienced also in real time. And that's dope. Yeah. It's, it's just one of the coolest things because they are so accessible, right. As, as artists as well like to, to young people

R. Alan Brooks:

And so clearly themselves, like Yeah. They're such a distinct voice always the whole time, you know?

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. Like there's no posturing, right. Like they're, they're you know, a bunch of weirdos and Yeah. And they That's awesome.

R. Alan Brooks:

Just do weird stuff and you get like maybe 80% of it. Yeah. And then like 30 years later, you know, you might get it like, oh, that's what they were saying there. You know what I'm saying?

Gregg Deal:

Yeah, no, for sure. And I think the, the, the realism of of those things are what give them value. Right. That's why punk rock always appealed to me as well, cuz it's like realistic, you know? Mm-Hmm. and you're listening to Jello bifa with, you know, dead Kennedy's and he's saying some crazy stuff. But like, even today I hear that and I'm just like, yeah, no, that I feel that. And my kid, my my oldest kid's Sage they're the same way. They're like, yeah, that's dope. Nazi punks fuck off . Right. .

R. Alan Brooks:

All right. So, okay, you do the college thing you come out, what's your next step like on the path to being the artist? You are the disruptor

Gregg Deal:

Now. Yeah. No, I don't, I don't think college prepares you. Right. Like, unless you're going to a, like a RISD . Right, right. Colleges don't prepare you for business mm-hmm. . that's true. And so I was lucky enough to have a little bit of hustle in my heart. Yeah. And cuz that's a big part of the game. And I left school like, okay, I'm an oil painter, I'm gonna be an oil painter mm-hmm . And and it, I was entering group shows and I was not getting in Right. Because nobody wanted my shitty little oil paintings. Ah. And at the same time that that was happening, you know, like low brow was really making you know, a big, a big stink in the art world. And so I was recognizing that and seeing that and like recognizing the processes and thinking through that.

But it took me a long time to really wrap my head around that cuz I needed to figure out what my voice was. I needed to figure out what my style was cuz I wasn't like oil painting's not gonna cut it. Right. There's better oil painters there than me. And so right outta school I worked for a sign the sign industry mm-hmm. desperately clamoring at a job at the National Museum of American Indians cuz it was opening that year Okay. On the National Mall. And so I was working this sign job and my boss his name was Shane. He was this white dude in Manassas, Virginia, which is close enough to be Central Virginia to, you know, bring about some of the, some of the choice words that you might hear from, you know someone from the south Gotcha.

I'm like, there's this thing going on. And he kind of made fun of me for it and and I was mad. Right. And so I left and so I'm literally putting gas in my car at the gas station about to get on 95 to head up into DC mm-hmm. and and I get a call from the National Museum of American Indians offering me the job. Ah, man. And I was like, just on cloud nine. So I drive up into DC and there was more natives than I've ever seen in my life. They were covering the National Mall from the Washington Monument all the way up to the capitol building where they had a stage erected to like talk about what they're doing there. I was at the

R. Alan Brooks:

Million Man march and they had a similar

Gregg Deal:

That he was gonna do. And and the Ford Foundation told them like, this needs to benefit a youth of some. So they were like, okay, it's a mentorship program. It was totally ad hoc, like I was just in the right place. They're like, Gregg has an art degree, he can go . And so like a year later I'm at the Venice Bien Ali with James Luna. Huh. In, in Venice, Italy. Wow. And that changed everything. Yeah. That, that, I mean as, as transformative as school was sort of opening up the world, watching James being hanging out with James, somebody who I studied very heavily be, not because he was a performance artist, but because he was an unapologetic native voice. Like he just was who he was. And I was trying to figure that out cuz I was trying to do in school like, okay, I need to be a native artist so I have to do like a checklist. I have to do these things. And it just came out so trite and so contrived and so being able to watch him work was just crazy for me.

R. Alan Brooks:

That's seeing what was possible. That's the thing that you

Gregg Deal:

Brought up earlier. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Because even James didn't give me advice or anything. Yeah. But James, it pulled me into his performances. Huh. And what's crazy about this conversation Yeah. Is I curated this show up at Longmont Museum that's that's gonna be open I guess for another few months. And there's an article that's written by a curator at the Denver Art Museum. Mm-Hmm. , John Luk. And he makes mention of James Luna and then parenthesis like, you know, Gregg went to with James to the Venice Bali. So the curator at the museum reached out and he was just like, John makes this mention, like, do you have photographs? I was like, I don't have photographs, but I can get in touch with the museum Right. And see what they got. So I'm in touch with the photographer that I was kicking it with there.

Wow. She sends me a contact sheet of all the photographs from the Venice bi Ali and I'm looking at these photographs for the first time in 18 years. Wow. And am just blown away cuz there's things I didn't remember. Right. And yeah, there's photographs of James and I, like he pulled me into his performances and I remembered it that he pulled me in sort of last minute. Right. I was in it the entire time. Huh. Like I had, I didn't even realize, cuz I think I was just so overwhelmed Right. That I was in his performances for the entire time at the Venice bi like right outta college. And that's dope man. Yeah. Well when you come home from that, like I can't work at the Smithsonian anymore. Like I, I got, I got work to do, I got business to do.

R. Alan Brooks:

So did it was a, did it so it changed your mind state some. Yeah. but did it open up new opportunities or was it just the mindset state you were like, okay, I'm just hustling on another level.

Gregg Deal:

It definitely didn't open up new opportunities. It was all a, a mindset. Yeah. And realizing that something's possible. You know, when I finished school, my wife, you know, we've been married for 24 years this year and dope. You know, bless her heart, she was super pragmatic when, when I finish and she's like, what do you want to do? Hmm. I was like, I wanna be an artist. And she's like, no . That's, that's not practical. Cause like, you know, we want to have a family, we want to have kids. Right. And you can't do that in doing that. And and so here I am, you know, full circle, like leaving the, and and my wife and I had been through some things and so by the time I got back to the na to the Indian Museum after Venice Yeah. I was like, this is what I want to do and I made a plan mm-hmm.

It's true. And so I was working around the clock and it was not working. The straw that broke the camel's back was 2008, the recession. Right. within two weeks in DC is one of these cities where when something like that happens, when a recession happens, like it hits immediately mm-hmm. . And so the news is saying recession within two weeks, every single contract that I had was gone. Wow. And I had like hundreds of thousands of dollars in reoccurring contracts Wow. That were gone in two weeks. So then it's like a now what? Yeah. I took a job as a graphic designer, I was only there for 10 months and got let go cause it didn't have enough work. Hmm. And it was it was winter 2009 and my wife and I, my wife's like, we don't have any money, so can you make something for our moms for Christmas?

. And so there wasn't a scene, but there was this group of people, you know, kind of coming off of the tales of the, the explosion of low brow music mm-hmm. or low brow art scene where we just hustled and figured it out. And there was guys that were like putting together they were putting together pop-up shows and they were calling themselves No King's Collective. Okay. And there was like two guys. But, so I think technically that's the smallest collective you can have . But they were, they were doing these shows and then I was like showing up and they were letting me in and I was just swinging for the fences. Like every extra money we had was put into new work. And yeah. So it was like trying to make my bones and figure it out.

But in that time I was also figuring out like I needed to borrow from this artistic experience and this artistic, so it wasn't oil paintings, it was spray paint and stencils and working with vinyl because I worked in the sign industry and I happened to have a vinyl plotter and it was, you know, trying to figure out how all these different things work. Right. So I could figure out what tools that I needed to use. And so I think what taught me probably as much as school, if not more, was necessity. Hmm. You know, I had to put food on the table and figure out how to make it work.

R. Alan Brooks:

Really dope, man. Of when I wanna say I felt like this, this story of your artistic journey is also the story of like your wife's you, you and your wife's partnership. Yeah. You know, which is really inspiring and dope to hear.

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. She's hardcore man. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

. She's, sounds

Gregg Deal:

Like it. She's no joke. But and she reminded me too, she's like, A lesser woman would've left you. I was like, okay. I know , I love you. Thank you .

R. Alan Brooks:

But then also it sounds like you were finding your artistic voice. It was the accumulation of all your life's experiences up to that point. Yeah. And you bringing all that in and then it what comes out of it Yeah. Becomes you.

Gregg Deal:

Well it was also, there was another thing that happened cuz during that recession, all those contracts I lost Yeah. Were all native nonprofits. Like every major native nonprofit is based outta Washington DC Oh, okay. And so I lose all those contracts and That's okay. No sour grapes. I get it. Yeah. but a couple of those businesses were hiring and so I was like, I just lost his work. Like, I could use a job, you know me, you know what I'm capable of. And every last one of 'em like didn't hire me. Hmm. So I thought I was playing by the rules and I thought that I was like, not just the business rules, but also the cultural rules. Like I was doing the things I was supposed to be doing. And I became so incensed that I remember in the process of like taking the plunge of just like, okay, we're just gonna concentrate on the art.

I remember saying to my wife, cuz I got a, a solo show, this little rin eating solo show in this little corner off of U Street in DC and I said, I don't want to be a native artist. Hmm. I just wanna be an artist. And my wife's like, yeah, I don't blame you. And I, I was pretty mad about the sort of cultural obligations and then it not paying off and Right. Helping me out and cuz I had kids. Yeah. You know, I have like native kids and like, why, why is this business giving this job to like a white dude Right outta college when I have like, can do the job and I have children. Right. And you know, like I, I feel like that there should be, you know, a a give or take there. Yeah. And and it was that abandonment was sort of, I I always pictured as like I had this structure in my head and when that happened, like I demolished that entire structure Hmm. And, and the rebuilding of that structure happened through my artistic process and it ended up arriving in a natural way. So all those contrived things I created in college were no longer contrived. The things that arrived and came through the work came through because they were real, because they were there because they were true. And not because I was trying to follow some formula or felt forced to have to do those things.

R. Alan Brooks:

That's dope, man.

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. Yeah. And that's, it's painful though too. It is. Right. We have cultural expectations. Yeah. Like we love our people, we love our communities. And what to be let down by anybody that you've believed in for most of your life is is heartbreaking. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

But also like you know, I've had some similar experiences dealing with like black structures of black artists or whatever. And one of the things that I've had to realize is, and this is you don't have to have the same, you know, thought that I have, but for me it was basically like they are under the weight of the oppression that I'm fighting. Sure. You know? And so like some of the things that end up hurting me within our community is a result of those

Gregg Deal:

Historical traumas. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right? Yeah. And so, like, if you're trying to create something as a, a, an artist of color and you're trying to do it within your own community, sometimes you can't be weighted down by trying to heal everyone around you in order to move forward. You know, sometimes you just gotta move forward. Yeah. And the, the thing that you create heal them. You know,

Gregg Deal:

I I I sort of articulated is that I stopped asking permission. Yeah. And that

R. Alan Brooks:

Disruptor,

Gregg Deal:

I don't go, I don't go to somebody, I don't, I don't even go to my elders mm-hmm. and say like, should I, could I, you know mm-hmm. will, I I don't seek permission. Yeah. I follow a formula of truth, like if it's true, if it's true, if it's mine, if what I'm saying is is true and I can back that up. Yeah. then I can say it, that's my experience.

R. Alan Brooks:

Does that bring you into like, like opposition with the elders and stuff like that?

Gregg Deal:

No. Yeah. No. My tribe's like super laid back. Okay. so there's, you know, traditions and things, but the obligations aren't as heavy as they are in other communities. If anything my tribe's been super hands off Yeah. Until they're not. Okay. And so like something comes up and they're like, Hey, that's one of ours. Like that's, and so I don't, don't get a lot of that. In fact, I, I probably get more grief from people of other tribal nations than I do from my own. Huh. but yeah. You know, I just, I I, it, it stinks to say cuz I think everybody's trying to survive. Right. You know, that, that weight of oppression, that historical trauma. And so I can't count on anybody, but I'm there if they need me. And I I accept it. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

I accept it. Okay. So turn a point for me was I watched this, are you familiar with Melvin Van Peebles? Yeah. Okay. So I watched documentary about him called how to Eat Your Watermelon and White Company and Enjoy It. I've mentioned it on this podcast before, but one of the, I was at this place where I was trying to make everything black. Like, you know, I was like, okay, well this is when I was focused mostly on music more than comics. And I was like, yeah, okay. The whole guy band's gonna be black, the producer, everybody, I'm, we're gonna do this. It's gonna be something that we do. And and I found a lot of like opposition, jealousy, people struggling with their own fears Yeah. And, and becoming obstacles to me. And it, it was hurtful and it felt like a betrayal and I was angry about it. And, but when I watched Mel, the, my, the documentary about Melvin, Melvin really kind of took the position of the thing that I create is healing to my culture. Mm-Hmm. And it doesn't matter who helps me create it, you know, but I'm gonna get this done. Yeah. So if you ain't gonna help me get out the way you saying

Gregg Deal:

. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I, I think, you know, you gotta do what you gotta do and however you gotta do it. I accident and put a band together and work I think we're releasing next week or Oh. Or not late next week next month or Oh, nice. In May, but

R. Alan Brooks:

Is it a, is a punk bear?

Gregg Deal:

It's a little, yeah, it's a little punk thing. Okay. kind of spoken word and and punk stuff, but Yeah. I mean, when we started putting it together, like somebody said, well, you know, you should have native, native musicians working with you. And it's just like, yeah, no, I'm down to work with whoever, you know, and, and I don't know, it's just this weird thing that we do where it's just like, our stuff has to be purely this. Right. whereas like, you know, white artists don't do that True. They, they use whatever, whatever they have the means to. Yeah. if in a perfect world I would love to do that. Yeah. but, you know, I gotta work with what I got and that's okay.

R. Alan Brooks:

And also listen, I got enough black in my soul to carry every, all the project forward. You know

Gregg Deal:

What I'm saying? I have enough black in my soul too, but I think it's a different kind of black different kind of darkness.

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh, rock ,

Gregg Deal:

Right?

R. Alan Brooks:

Oh, are you gonna go deep goth? Is that what you're

Gregg Deal:

Talking? No, I'm just, I'm just, everybody frustrates me. And so I'm just like

R. Alan Brooks:

That's, that's how our disruptor's born. Okay. I want to ask you, so we moved into this part where you were talking about not asking for permission. So now I think it's important to know like when you create art, cuz so much of your stuff has social commentary. Yeah. so much of it is sort of like provoking. What, what is, what do you want people to experience? Like what's your goal when you're creating art? Are you thinking about your catharsis? Are you thinking about how it impacts the world? Like what's happened?

Gregg Deal:

I'm mostly thinking about myself. Huh. I, I, I've come to the conclusion in in, I'm not stuck on this. I, I believe that there's fluidity to it. Cuz I think that things ebb and flow particularly for contemporary artists. Yeah. I'm under the impression that contemporary art is personal. Hmm. And you know, I saw Jeffrey Gibson's show at the Denver Art Museum like a hammer. Okay. And I was going through the exhibition with the curator and he was explaining a bunch of things to me as we were going through it. And something that Jeffrey Gibson does is he incorporates like lyrics. Okay. He's got like these huge beaded pieces in the like, lyrics Yeah. Or, or statements from speeches from his, his favorite, you know, from his favorite activists and or Raiders. And it blew my mind. I was like, you can do that.

And like, and, and even as a graphic designer, like, it just never dawned on me Right. To do that. And and so I started creating work that is my experience but also trying to articulate in a way that makes sense to me. Yeah. And and so I recognize that there's a shared experience. I recognize that my experience may also be the exact experience that somebody else has. I don't create it for that reason. I create it for myself. I'm of the belief that that art is medicine that artists are medicine people and more times than not the person we're trying to heal is ourselves. Hmm. And so I am trying to navigate the space in that way, but I also know that if somebody who's had a shared experience sees something that I create and it speaks to them Yeah.

And they want that and they, they decide to take that and make that part of, you know, part of themselves I accept that responsibility. It's not the goal. Yeah. But it's, but I accept that as a, a possibility. And in terms of education, you know, I think people of color are all dealing with this, if I say anything that's off the beaten path mm-hmm. that has a sense of informing space, identity, culture, any of those things were immediately labeled as an activist. Right. Right. And, and I reject that mm-hmm. because our experiences or our experiences, I, I remember being in DC I was one of many faces that was at the forefront of the mascot debate mm-hmm. . And I remember somebody criticizing my work and saying, well, he's only doing that because it's relevant and it gives him a leg up without taking into consideration that I'm a father and I have children.

Right. And we are literally navigating this mascot business in a, in a really kind of sad and scary way. Like I'm explaining to my kids like, this is how we talk in the house, don't talk like this at school. Right. And the, the immediate thought is because like a a, a fellow student might give your kid a hard time. No, I'm more concerned about the educator that decides that their fandom is more important than them being an educator. Right. And bullying my child. Yeah. Because they don't like what my child just said. Right. And so I'm coaching my kids on how to speak at school to protect themselves mm-hmm. . So is it convenient? Am I doing something because it's relevant or has it just happened to be relevant and I'm a parent that's actually navigating the very things that I'm talking about. Yeah. And so, you know, activists especially now, I think it's just such a tough thing because there's, there's something attached to it. You know, the person that's looking for the book deal, the person who's looking to be the spokesperson. I'm not looking to be any of those things. I'm not looking for the book deal. I just wanna make work. And and so that's where Disruptor came from because it was like, you know, I guess I'm an activist and one person calls an activist. You could also call an adult with an opinion . Right. And but I'm always gonna disrupt your spaces. Hmm.

R. Alan Brooks:

You know, it's dope to hear. I always ask that question about like, the creation of art. Like, is it for you? Is it for the world? Is it a balance? Because every artist I talk to, they're like somewhere else on the spectrum. Yeah. How much they think about. And and I don't think any of it's right or wrong in particular. I agree. Yeah. It's just cool to see, you know, how all these things come. I was thinking about for the, when you were talking about how the art that you create impacts the world and then the relationship of different people of color how like those history sit side by side. Yeah. When I was creating the Nat Love comic for the Denver Art Museum there's a period of his life where according to his autobiography, he was kidnapped by a native tribe mm-hmm.

. And he was like, he lived among them for like a month until he escaped. Right. And so the in, in trying to depict that part of it, I got really nervous Yeah. For myself. Cause I was like, all right I'm not trying to do like generic, you know, like what are, like what are historical are, are there photos from the time? Like how did this tribe dress? That kind of thing. I can't remember the name tribe right now. Yeah. but like, how do they dress? How did, because I, I did not want to even though that's a small part of a bigger story, I didn't want to like re inflict a wound that's already been Sure. Yeah. And fortunately the museum had like a Native American council who helped them find pictures at the time. So cuz the other thing I was like, okay, if I was just writing about it, be something, but I'm drawing them in a comic, you know? Mm-Hmm. and I don't want to not show them, cuz then that's like removing their humanity, you know? It's just a whole thing. Yeah. Yeah. But I, I love, like

Gregg Deal:

I'm native and I worry about that, so I mean, yeah. Totally

R. Alan Brooks:

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. No, there's an intertribal aspect of that as well. There's certain tribes like I just won't mess with. Yeah. Like, period. Cuz I've crossed their paths and it didn't go well. Huh. And but in the same way that, you know, like native people are expecting recognition, like, whose land are you on? Yeah. You know, all that. I am a, a native person of this continent, Uhhuh, I'm on somebody else's homelands. Mm-Hmm. And so I have to recognize that stuff just as much as, just as much as anybody else does. Ah, in fact, I'm probably beholden to it more so I should know better than, than your average person because these are not my traditional homelands. Right. Yeah. So that's a, that if it's done right, it affects everybody. Yeah. Not just you. It affects me too.

R. Alan Brooks:

Hmm. Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah.

Gregg Deal:

It's it's a lot because that ends up complicating so much of the discussion of like what you're doing and how you're doing it. Like, to the degree that I almost need to make sure that I'm justifying everything appropriately, huh. In, in what I'm creating and how I'm creating it. One of the things I love about contemporary art is that I don't need to rely on the relics of the past. Right. In terms of representation. Mm-Hmm. that I can I can reinvent things like what does that look like and how does that look? And, and I can look at it in terms of futurism. I can look at it in terms of reinvention, I can look at it in, in terms of abstraction. So that gives me space to maneuver, but that's also an incredibly important space to be in because it is removed from the relic that we've been placed into in popular culture.

R. Alan Brooks:

This is a good conversation, man. . All right. So we got your past, we kind of got like your journey. What do you, what do you see as sort of like your next chapter as a, as a creative?

Gregg Deal:

I don't know. I mean, I'm always creating, I'm never not creating. Yeah. but I can tell you I had three solo exhibitions last year and now I have no idea what's next. Ah. And like that's a lot to do along the front range and in one place. Right. so I'm not sure what's next. There's a couple things popping up, you know I'm working with MCA mm-hmm. on on our performance piece coming up in September. And and that's exciting, but I mean this business ebbs and flows. Right. I've definitely been ebbing more than flowing lately mm-hmm. and, and so I'm just trying to figure out what those next steps are. Cuz within that discussion is also sustainability and you know Right. Being, being given opportunities and platforms and, you know, but, but I also need to make on some level, whether I like it or not, I have to make room for other people too. Right. And it can't be the great deal show all the time. Hmm.

R. Alan Brooks:

Okay. Well, so you think so for you, this, this span that you just started Yeah. Is it just kind of like a, like a, you know, like a respite to get away from it? Or is it another place to put your art?

Gregg Deal:

It's another place. Okay. it's another medium to me. I mean, I'm not gonna tour, this is not gonna do anything on that end. It's called the Dead Pioneers. Okay. so, you know, I'm poking, poking some things a little bit. Right. I don't think we're gonna be invited, you know, to play on you know, university of Denver anytime soon. They're mascots being the pioneers. Oh, I see. But , but I didn't even know that actually. But the yeah, no, it's another medium and I'm working in a lot of mediums because it is giving me space to, you know, stretch. Yeah. And flex.

R. Alan Brooks:

What do you, what do you do in the band?

Gregg Deal:

I'm the lead singer and I wrote all the lyrics and then worked with a bunch of guys to kind of make everything happen. That's dope,

R. Alan Brooks:

Man.

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. we record up at the blasting room up in Fort Collins. Okay. And which is owned by one of the descendants. And so it'ss like punk rock adjacent but spoken word and Yeah. And it all came out of a performance piece that I did and kind of walked into a space of like what ifs and then I did it and my wife lovingly is like, what are you doing ? Like, you got no business doing this. And but I think in the art world, that has a lot to do with how we work. Yeah. Like if you tell me I can't do it because Right. Cuz I'll, cuz I'll figure it out. .

R. Alan Brooks:

All right. So I, I try to wrap up with two questions. Yeah. one of them is what is kind of like your your little side pleasure, you know, like some people say guilty pleasure, but like, what's the thing that you do to like, you know, feed yourself to inspire yourself creatively?

Gregg Deal:

Movies, music, doom, scrolling on Instagram . I mean, I, I I'm watching my kids listen to music and watch movies that I love. Yeah. And and sort of rediscovering things

R. Alan Brooks:

Like through their eyes.

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. Yeah. That's the, I think that's amazing. But then there's also like an incredible set of artists, you know, on Instagram that are creating new works using new processes. And occasionally I see a process that looks really exciting and something I want to try that's available and figure out how to incorporate it into my own practice. And yeah. So a little bit of everything. I'm never not consuming. Yeah. One of, one of those things, honestly and truly just movies have always been important. Music's always been important, so those things are always, always there.

R. Alan Brooks:

That's pretty dope, man. Yeah. All right. And then I guess just where can people interact with your stuff online in the world?

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. Gregg deal.com. I have a website which is more of a holding place than anything. Mm-Hmm. things are happening in real time, usually on Instagram, which is just at Gregg deal, no spaces. Two, two G's at the end of Gregg. Yeah.

R. Alan Brooks:

It's so funny. I always have to people to not put two L's in Alan . I don't like four letters more better. I have to say it to make people remember. Yeah. But with your, Gregg is two G three G's total. I

Gregg Deal:

Have a lifetime of my name being spelled wrong and

R. Alan Brooks:

, I imagine.

Gregg Deal:

So my mom wanted to name me Dallas and my father saved my skin and they named me after a man I've never met. So , but added an extra g to be different. I don't

R. Alan Brooks:

Know. Okay. So you would've been Dallas Steel.

Gregg Deal:

Yeah. That's a lot, man.

R. Alan Brooks:

. That is

Gregg Deal:

.

R. Alan Brooks:

I'm glad you escaped that, man. Me too.

Gregg Deal:

Me too.

R. Alan Brooks:

. Hey, I appreciate you taking time to talk to me. It was a really good conversation. Thanks

Gregg Deal:

For having me, man. Like totally much love.

R. Alan Brooks:

Right on. Special thank you to today's guest, Gregg Diehl. Thank you. To the listeners, if you're not already, please be sure to subscribe to How Art is born, wherever you get your podcast, from our episodes. And if you can leave a review, it really helps us out. Check out MCA Denver on YouTube and subscribe to the channel to watch video version of this podcast and scenes today's Visit, MTA Denver's current exhibition Breakthrough celebrating Red Line at 15 on View. Now until May 28th, 23, Howard Is Born, is produced and edited by DA Johnson and executive produced by Additional thanks to Rachel Gram for their work on marketing.