Episode 42 is all about fundamental LGBTQ concepts, and ways we can support our kids and others who may be on their own journey, discovering who they are. Elaine Farris joins host Carmelita (Cat) Tiu and shares:

• What the definitions are for assigned sex, gender identity, gender expression, and sexual orientation
• How these terms relate to one another
• Why acceptance is not the goal
• The importance of using pronouns
• How to support your child while being careful not to push them

Guest Bio:

Elaine is a licensed clinical social worker and psychotherapist based in Ann Arbor, Michigan, whose passion is working with individuals within the LGBTQ+ community, and the neurodivergent community, which often overlap. She works under an intersectional, feminist, and anti-oppressive framework.

Email:  elainefarristherapist@gmail.com

In this episode – references and additional resources:

• The Trevor Project
• Previous Episode of Know Them, Be Them, Raise Them:
• Emotional Suppression and How to Create a Safe Space for Your Kids to Open Up // with Ezza Mustaffa (Ep. 35)

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Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Welcome to know them.

Be them, raise them.

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So when I was growing up, I didn't know a single gay person, or if I did, I didn't

know it or they hadn't come out yet.

If they were one of my peers.

I grew up in a suburb of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and I lived kind

of a sheltered existence, but I also think it was the time.

In the eighties, people weren't really talking about it as

much as, as far as I knew.

If I'm remembering correctly.

I think I was in high school when I first met an openly gay couple.

And they were visiting town from Chicago.

Now my daughter's lives look very different.

One of my daughter's best friends in kindergarten.

Started the year with a boy's name.

But midway through.

Made it clear.

She identified as a girl and ended the year with a girl's name,

pigtails and painted nails and all.

My other daughter was I think in fourth or fifth grade.

When she came home with a sheet full of colorful flags, she had drawn.

, Including the gay pride flag.

The pansexual flag and the bisexual flag.

And now there are LGBTQ characters on television.

Often.

It wasn't something I remember seeing ever.

Ever as a kid, but my girls celebrate diverse representation.

I'd say at least once a week on some show they're watching.

So along with these changes have come new words and terms.

, I was lucky to learn some of them through diversity initiatives at work.

But not everyone has that opportunity.

And frankly, I could learn more.

Every time I do an interview with a guest I'm reminded of how much, I didn't know.

I didn't know.

So my guest today is Elaine Ferris.

Social change has always been important to Elaine.

She studied social policy as an undergrad.

And during that time she became involved with the LGBTQ plus community.

Eventually identifying within the community herself.

And exploring her own journey.

While studying abroad in Amsterdam, she became acutely aware of the

needs of the transgender community.

Especially the lack of support.

Particularly for those in physical transition.

This inspired her to obtain her master's in social work.

Focusing on LGBTQ plus individuals.

Especially transgender persons.

Today.

Elaine is a licensed clinical social.

Uh, worker and psychotherapist based in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

Whose passion is working with individuals within the LGBTQ plus

community and the neurodivergent community, which often overlap.

She works under an intersectional feminist and anti-oppressive framework.

Here's our conversation.

Welcome Elaine.

I am eager to have you share your expertise on the LGBTQ community and

your experiences to help us learn.

Of course, thanks for having me.

So can you explain, assigned sex, gender

identity, gender expression, and sexual orientation and how those all

interrelate and how they can show up.

Yes, these are all very different terms that have their own unique

meanings that can relate to each other.

So I guess just going through each one, one by one, assigned sex at

birth is relating to what society deems us to be at birth usually

based off of our bodies in genitalia.

It's a pretty narrow understanding of sex, because for example, it's very ignorant

towards the existence of intersex people that might not fall into a category.

Um,

And explain what intersex means.

If you

yeah, intersex is when a person's genitalia, again,

doesn't fit within the standards of like, oh, this is, you know, a

female body and this is a male body.

There can be a a lot of different like,

Mm.

Even within the category of intersex, it doesn't

usually just mean one thing.

Like it can mean a lot of different things, whether it's, how a person

might look or, you know, chromosomally.

And unfortunately in the past society and hospitals have been so adamant

about putting people into a category

mm-hmm

that they have really encouraged, or maybe not

even told parents that it was a possibility not to do surgery.

Uh, yes.

So they would say you have to choose, do you want your baby to be a, a male

or a female, and then we'll do surgery so that they fit into this category,

even if it's completely unnecessary.

And most of the time it is unnecessary, actually.

So that's how, how much our society cares about gender norms and fitting into.

and a lot of the times it's, very traumatic because many intersects

people might grow up later in life.

Not even knowing that they're intersex and they might start, exploring their own

gender and their own bodies and realizing that, they themselves might identify

as trans and you know, they might have to get like corrective surgery or, they

might transition and, maybe the surgery at birth made it a lot more difficult

for them to transition or, again like the not understanding and not even really

being informed about yourself and just the trauma that can cause is something

that is, I think not talked about enough.

And I think it's hopefully shifting more towards you know, parents

not necessarily being encouraged or forced to choose at birth.

But I, it definitely still happens and there's still a huge lack of

understanding of what don't fit, you know, within the categories that,

that society deems to be reasonable.

But yeah, sex in general is still, is considered to be related to like

what a person's body looks like.

Which is just very, very outdated or, or the chromosomes, which again,

like, even with intersex people in existence, like you would think

that people would understand that that doesn't work for everybody.

Mmm.

not so cotton dry, but there are a lot of people out

there who are very internalized, uh, these gender norms.

right.

Mm-hmm

And then gender identity is how a person sees themself.

exactly.

It's how they identify their gender.

And so that can.

I wanted to say like correlate or not correlate with gender expression.

I struggle to use that word because , what is a correlation?

Right?

Somebody decided in our society that girls wear dresses.

So you would think like, oh, well, a girl correlates with a dress.

Pink with girls, you know, all these gender norms are just literally made up.

So gender expression though, is, is how a person expresses their gender.

And this is often through clothes and presentation and, and some of it

might fall within, what is societal norms, like, a person who might

identify as a trans girl or trans woman might, want to wear dresses

or, be seen as more feminine.

But it is interesting to consider, how much of this is societal standards and how

much of it is, the gender identity and expression that you're wanting to portray.

, it's, uh, kind of complicated because from the moment we're born, we're

internalizing these ideas of feminism and masculinity and, what that means to us.

Mm-hmm okay.

Sexual orientation, I think is actually the most

unrelated to the other terms.

because it doesn't have anything to do with sex or gender at all.

It's who you're attracted to.

Even beyond sexual orientation, there are, different categories

of attraction within that.

So there's emotional attraction, physical attraction.

Sexual attraction and romantic attraction and all of that can be very different.

You know, there's people who are aromantic, who are asexual, there's

a lot of different terms out there.

You know, some people really like the labels, some people don't like the labels.

It's whatever works for a person.

For example, there are some people who really might be able to feel

sexual attraction, but not romantic attraction or, you know, vice versa,

maybe really can feel the romantic attraction towards a person, an emotional

connection, but, maybe they're just not sexually attracted to individuals.

And so there there's a lot of nuance within that as well.

I love that you sort of nonchalantly said that sexual

orientation is a separate thing from, from the gender discussion, because I

think people assume you born with male body parts, then you're a man and you

should be attracted to women, you know?

So I, appreciate, and I'm grateful for that mindset of these are distinct things.

And you know, I do understand that it can

be a little bit confusing.

For example, people who might have like, no.

Idea about any of this stuff, you know, when you hear oh, LGBTQ, like, you

know, I think that, course there's a lot of discourse in regards to grouping

everybody together because there are differences in these experiences,

particularly with the trans community.

In the past, unfortunately, there's been a lot of discrimination in currently, too.

There's been a lot of discrimination towards the trans community.

Even within the queer community as a whole.

So like L G B uh, individuals, or, you know, just beyond, in regards

to sexual orientation or attract have been very discriminatory

towards transgender individuals.

So I think it just goes to show that they are very different topics

and these communities do experience different types of discrimination.

We know that, trans individuals, especially trans women, especially

black and brown trans women have a lot of you know, safety issues that they

have to deal with that, for example, white gay men do not have to deal with.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Mm mm-hmm . Mm, mm.

Yeah.

It's not just these terms that are very different.

It's these people's experiences that are very different as well,

that we have to take into account.

Right.

And, the goal ultimately is, in my mind, acceptance of whoever, regardless of what

you may have been born with, whatever you identify with, and however you choose

to express yourself and however, and whoever you choose to love, is okay,

I think celebration is, is ideal.

you know, I think acceptance is, oh, okay.

I'll I guess I'll accept that.

Like, it's kinda like this under like, oh, accept that.

Um, versus like, I think celebration and validation can kind of give

a different feel towards that.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: that absolutely.

No, that's a very good point.

And it, reminds me a little bit.

And I don't mean to conflate two very, different issues, but the sense of

activism around the black lives matter movement and being anti-racist and how,

it's not enough to say you're not racist or to operate or function in your own

tiny little world, as someone that thinks you're not racist, you have to do more.

You have to proactively do something to help dismantle our

systemically racist structures.

Yeah.

That's kind of what struck me about your

use of the word celebrate, like do more than just accept or tolerate?

Right.

So thank you for saying that,

And you know, if you're just kind of going along with

the norm, then unfortunately you're contributing to oppressive structures

that have been place for so long, because if we don't do anything, then

they're just gonna be there forever.

You gotta, You gotta very purposefully, you know, challenge that and go

against it in order to create change.

And one small thing, maybe it's not so small,

but one thing that felt kind of easy I think for some people to start doing

is in their email signatures or on their zoom cameras, adding pronouns.

What do you think the importance of using pronouns is?

And if there's anyone who's skeptical about how or why it's important

what would you like to tell.

It's incredibly important.

If, if a person cares.

And I say that because there are some people out there who might not feel

like their pronouns are that important.

I've worked with clients before who have said, oh yeah, like,

it's not as big of a deal to me.

And it's always important to recognize that there are those experiences as well.

But on the flip side, there are also people who are very, very adamant

about pronouns and, and it can really affect their mental health when you

use them correctly or incorrectly,

Hm.

Most of the time, if you're using them incorrectly, of course, that

really can cause distress but I actually just looked up some statistics , that are

recent from the Trevor project, because I think that these statistics can kind

of emphasize why support is so important.

So, a 2022 national survey on LGBTQ youth, mental health found that 45%

of LGBTQ youth seriously considered attempting suicide in the past

year, including more than half of transgender and non-binary youth.

So when you look at those numbers, it is literally life or death for, a lot

of these individuals, especially young people because you know, young people are,

are in the most vulnerable positions.

And parental support is one of the biggest factors in helping prevent suicide in

helping to stabilize mental health.

Mm,

And, it's a pronoun, like is it really that big of a deal

for you to, you know, try to change, maybe the name, try to do your

best , you know, and the thing is , I think it's important to be realistic

and it's understandable that it takes time to like, change your language.

You might make some mistakes, but I've talked to so many people before

who say that it is very easy to tell when you're actually trying.

So most trans people can tell when you're putting in an effort to making that

change, even if you stumble, you know, even if you're like, oh, like, sorry,

you know, use the wrong pronoun there.

Correct yourself and move on.

Don't make it a big deal.

I would say too, that that's another thing that, we tend to talk about a lot.

It's uh, kind of overwhelming when, you know, you profusely apologize,

Mm,

you know, the trans person feels like they have to make you feel

better And they're just like, okay, like, can you just apologize and fix it and

then move on and do better in the future.

You know, like it's not about you.

It's, it's about, this person who's going through a lot

and just looking for support.

Those are super helpful tips because I'm sure

there are people who are reluctant or worried they're gonna mess up.

And so talking through like, don't make it a big deal.

Just fix it and move forward, you know?

That's helpful to know, like there's no, scripted apology

that you have to have memorized in your back pocket if you mess up.

And like you said, I think in so many situations and I feel this way

generally about parenting, but it's the effort you're putting in that can carry

so much weight, like mess up or not.

If you're trying that goes so far.

And, practice too.

practice saying their new name in, in a sentence, practice, their new pronoun and,

you know, use it around other people too.

Cuz I think that you know, people notice like, you know, okay, maybe you

only try when you're like with me, but then when you're talking to a family

member, you're talking to somebody else, then you go back and you revert.

And it's a different story if this person isn't out yet.

And maybe, , switching is necessary in order to respect that that

person hasn't come out yet.

But if a person is wanting you to use those pronouns permanently,

then use them in any context.

Mm.

Again, that can really, really affect a person's mental health.

And it's just one small way of showing support.

I would say bare minimum.

You know, it feels like over the last 10, 20 years,

you know, there's been a collective, increase of an awareness around

transgender issues and LGBTQ issues.

So I think a question that comes up is, is this us noticing it more and being more

aware of it or are kids are young peoples experimenting more or becoming quote

unquote confused, which kind of ties into the, don't say gay legislation in Florida.

So in your opinion, I guess, does our talking about it more what impact do

you really think it has on young people?

And, you know, because there must be a range of normal for

this and quote, unquote normal.

I don't think that kids are thinking that looks fun and I'm gonna

do this, you know what I mean?

Especially when there are social implications to their decisions.

And so, yeah, I'm curious what your thoughts are on all this.

Yes.

I mean, I think it's all normal to explore.

And it's not that it wasn't happening decades or even centuries ago.

It's just that it wasn't talked about or people didn't have

the language and nowadays

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: and repressed, right?

Yeah.

absolutely.

Yes.

And, and so nowadays, although the internet can be a very toxic place, I

think that there's a lot of benefits in finding language, realizing that

you're not alone, finding support , a lot of people within the community,

you know, their initial support or even just general support is online.

And so that makes all the difference.

And yeah, I think it's so normal for young people to explore their identities and.

Even beyond gender, right?

Like we know that it's pretty normal for a child to just like,

be figuring themselves out.

And so this is bound to come up regardless of whether or not you're talking about it.

The only difference is if you're not talking about it, what that

is showing them is that there's something to be ashamed about.

There's something wrong here, which can negatively affect their mental health.

So talking about.

Topics and normalizing, it doesn't mean that you're encouraging it.

It just means that you're informing them and then they can

kind of explore on their own.

And a lot of the times they, they might just be exploring . like

very, very young children, especially, that is super normal.

You know, there are some kids who are like five, six who might explore

gender expressions or, gender identity and I don't know a little

girl, for example, like chop off all her hair and be a tomboy.

I would say, as a child gets a little bit older, you know, maybe into their

teens, if they're still exploring, then it might be more of a certainty.

It depends on how, how they're going about it.

And, how it is for them.

Like the more adamant a child is, I would say the more potential likelihood

that this is a real thing for them that will last beyond childhood.

And I heard you encourage like a, an atmosphere of

openness, I think what you said was, if you are not talking about certain things,

then you're implying that this is not something that is okay to talk about.

And so that can leave a sense of shame and insecurity around that particular topic.

So things like support, openness, um, and meeting them where they're at?

It also applies okay.

just about to go there in.

In saying that sometimes the parents might be over eager in

supporting their child.

Like it's, maybe more rare than, than the other, but sometimes parents

might be too gung ho and they're like, oh my gosh, like, do you want

me to like, buy these clothes for you?

Or do you, wanna do, do you wanna go hormone?

Do we need to do that then?

Do you want me get a new therapist?

Da, da.

And um, I think when we say meet your child where they're at.

It means both, right?

The balance of like, yes, listen to where they're at, but also maybe

don't push them in any direction.

Because especially with the discourse nowadays, a lot of people, know

more about the existence of LGBTQ identities and especially,

you know, trans, uh, children.

And so they might think, oh, the moment a child starts questioning, that means

that they're trans and that, you know, you should just go all in and start buying

them new clothes and, and all that stuff.

And that is definitely, not appropriate.

Because it might not be where your kid's at yet and gonna go get there eventually,

who knows, but also maybe they'll totally pivot and go somewhere else.

So we wanna actually listen to them in the moment of like, okay, like what's,

you know, what's going on right now?

Like, what are you thinking?

And, and what are they needing right in this moment that we know of, for sure.

Carmelita (Cat) Tiu, Host: Ah, that's so good.

I think parents, myself included or anyone we crave certainty, right?

there's so much relief in knowing that something has been decided on

and you can head in that direction.

, so yeah, I, that's a very good point., wanting to be certain, regardless

of what that outcome is, can also be very, you know, potentially

limiting and daunting for a kid.

Huh?

Definitely.

And you know, this is a process I think all of us are trying to figure

out our ourselves and our identities throughout life, to be honest.

Working with individuals themselves who are transitioning there, there

is often this desire to be like, okay, know, I wanna be at the end

of my transition and I wanna be done

and obviously that's valid to be feeling that that way.

And a lot of it has to do with societal discrimination and

oppression that they're going,

you know, when are you really done?

Because it is just like a lifelong process of, knowing yourself and growing.

And, you know, even at 30 years old, you might think something about yourself and

be quite certain, then 10 years later, that might not be the case anymore.

Is there a, parting thought you'd like to leave on

this topic with the listeners nurse?

I can understand why parents might want their kids

to fit in and not be bullied and, to not experience discrimination.

Um, but again, it's about, I think meeting your kid where they're at and,

maybe that's not what they're wanting.

, and so it's, just not making assumptions and, recognizing that your experience is

different from your children's experience and , it's okay that it's different.

I'm so grateful for my time with Elaine.

Here were my top takeaways from this episode.

Number one, the reference to one sex.

Assigned sex, biological sex or sex assigned at birth.

Means typically what society deems as male or female based on the biological

characteristics, a person is born with.

Like your genitalia.

Gender identity.

Stems from one's deeply held feelings about whether they are

male, female, both or neither.

And this could be fluid.

Gender expression is how someone expresses their gender typically by their clothes.

Um, the hair, makeup, body language, and voice.

Um, also a person's name and pronoun are common ways of expressing gender.

And sexual orientation is.

Put simply who someone is attracted to.

Number two.

According to the Trevor project, 2022 national survey.

On LGBTQ youth, 45% of LGBTQ youth, seriously considered

attempting suicide in the past year.

Including more than half of transgender and non-binary youth.

This means that our ability to sport kids.

And talk about issues can literally be a life or death situation.

And parental support is a huge component.

In the success and health and wellbeing.

of young people.

Number three.

Pronouns make space for transgender and gender non-binary people.

Use of inaccurate pronouns can have a negative effect on mental health.

So do try.

And if you make a mistake, simply apologize and move on.

Over apologizing can place a burden on the transgender individual.

Uh, and then they feel like they have to take care of your feelings, which is

something we're trying to avoid Lloyd.

Number four.

I remember that it's normal for kids to explore.

Whether it's their gender identity.

Gender expression, et cetera.

I try to create a safe space and have open conversations

with them about their feelings.

Number five.

If you're not talking about certain things, then you're implying that those

topics are not okay to talk about.

And that can lead to feelings of shame and disconnect.

And number six while support is a good thing.

Be mindful of your reactions and try not to show any biases

that might pressure your kid.

One way or the other.

Meet your child where they're at.

If you'd like to connect with Elaine, check the show notes

for her contact information.

I know I say this at the end of every show, but I 100% sincerely mean it.

When I say thank you for listening.

I'm so grateful for you.

, knowing that someone's listening helps fuel my desire to make more

of these episodes and hopefully provide content that's meaningful

and important and engaging to you.

Remember to subscribe, tell a friend and leave a review and here's to strong women.

May we know them?

May we be them?