Takeaways:

• Family estrangement is increasingly common, with estimates indicating that nearly one in four families experience some form of estrangement.
• The root causes of family estrangement often involve feelings of mistreatment or a perceived lack of belonging within the family unit.
• People may choose estrangement as a necessary measure for their mental health and safety, even if it comes with feelings of guilt.
• Estrangement can stem from various factors, including differing values, choices, and the impact of cultural expectations surrounding family relationships.
• The emotional weight of estrangement is complex, as individuals grapple with the loss of familial ties while seeking personal peace and safety.
• As societal norms shift, individuals increasingly prioritize their mental well-being over familial obligations, leading to the normalization of estrangement.

I got the belt.

So what I'd go and do and I'd put on as many pairs of pants as I could put underpants.

I think what causes family estrangement, the root causes, is people feel either mistreated or the family feels like they don't.

Belong because he married outside the faith.

They used to do that, but that's so strict.

Imagine sitting mourning for your child who's still alive because they married.

We can't imagine that today.

We cannot imagine that today.

For one to understand why it happens, one's got to understand the causes.

And why do people want to be in strange their family?

And the million dollar question is, do you have to actually stay connected to your family?

One of my best friends, she's like, oh, you know, the people are saying this.

I said, you know, go live your life, do what you're going to do and do what you want to do.

Because people are going to say you did it anyway.

True haters are going to hate.

And you have to remember that relief is not the absence of love.

It is the presence of safety.

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Okay, now let's get into it.

Have you been sitting at a family dinner smiling, nodding, and somewhere deep inside you're thinking, I don't know how much longer I can do this.

Or maybe you're not even at dinner anymore.

Maybe you made the decision, you walked away, and somehow that felt worse than staying.

Today we're talking about something that affects more people than anyone wants to admit.

Family estrangement.

The quiet epidemic of people choosing distance or having it chosen for them from the people who raised them.

It's a crisis.

It's everywhere.

It's what would have considered, you know, two generations ago to be very unusual.

It's quite normal now.

And in fact, one in four families have some type of estrangement.

Some say that number is almost as high as 38% in the US and we're talking across Europe, UK.

The problem, the biggest one, the biggest estrangement are fathers, fathers and their children, which isn't a huge surprise.

The next largest percentage wise are siblings.

For one to understand why it happens, one's Got to understand the causes.

And why do people want to be in strange their family?

And the million dollar question is, do you have to actually stay connected to your family?

I mean, the fact that you're related to people doesn't mean that you have to be connected to them for the rest of your life.

Because I believe a lot of it depends on how you were treated by them and if it's good for your mental health.

Well, anthropologically speaking, we, we, we're part of clans, we're pack animals, humans, so we have to stay.

If you were estranged, you died.

So you really, you, you see it all the time.

We had to say.

And now in the modern world, estrangement happens because we are more isolated.

And I think this is a plague of the modern world.

This is what we're looking at.

People being estranged from each other's fathers, from their children as siblings.

The lowest estrangement is mothers.

When we talk about COVID and we talk about things like that, that's forced estrangement by the government because there was an epidemic going on and people had to be stay in their own bubbles.

But most people are estranged because of choice.

Maybe they liked it, those bubbles and they realized going back.

Yeah, but a lot of those people that were estrang.

I don't think Covid per se caused family estrangement.

I think what causes family estrangement, the root causes is people feel either mistreated or the family feels like they don't belong in, in the clan.

So you're born into a family, you think differently, you're doing something differently, you're different gender, sex, whatever it is, or different.

You make different choices.

Money, money's a big thing with family estrangement.

Yeah, money is one thing, but it's not the only thing.

I think there's a lot of things, there's people, some people, you know, it's about how the family treated you because, you know, there's a lot of stories about people growing up in families that were molested, that were abused, that were.

And then they make a choice that either I'm going to move on with my own life and find peace, or, you know, find some sense of self, or I'm going to stay in this.

And it's a very, very difficult choice sometimes for some people to leave what they've always known, what they've grown up in, what their familiarity, and they leave that to start all alone.

I have a niece and she told me recently that she's estranged from her sister.

The sister did not invite her to A wedding.

She did not even tell her about it.

She stopped by in the airport for many hours, didn't even want to see her.

And I was trying to think because I don't really know what happened.

But what I do know is she said that even though the sister's younger, she bullied her when she was growing up.

That was her perception.

Now it's the younger sister choosing not to see her, not the one who was bullied.

So I was like, are you always the victim?

I mean, I always say with anything, anything, you look inward and you start saying, what was my role in this?

And if you can genuinely say, I don't want to.

Because remember, she doesn't under.

She doesn't.

She told me, I don't understand why she doesn't want to see me.

And I'm thinking, but you just told me she bullied you.

Maybe she said she thought that she was maligned, who knows?

What we do know is they're not talking about it and they're not seeing each other and she didn't even want her at her wedding.

And they're just two sisters.

Yeah, I think family estrangement, especially with siblings, that can happen because there's a lot of sibling rivalry and things like that.

But I see it even more with parents because a lot of parents are not, you know, they are parents, but sometimes people don't know how to parent a child.

And some parents are bullies.

You and me, I'm saying, you know, we came from cross cultural families.

And, you know, I can say this with my own mother from her culture coming to me and the way she communicated and what was considered the norm is no longer the norm.

And yes, I could sit there and say, oh, you know, she did this and this and this.

But no, she did the best she could.

There's one thing with a parent, they're two different things.

There's a parent doing the best they can and there's a parent that is abusive.

A lot of people say that what I endured was abusive.

That's what I was trying to explain.

Because in Asian cultures is just like African cultures and a lot of ethnic cultures.

They're very strict parents.

They might give you a hit here and there.

They might be like, you go sit in the corner.

But it becomes, there's an extreme, you know, you have parents that actually abuse children.

You know, like what your mother did is not abuse compared to, you know what I'm saying?

It is looked at as abuse in the Western world sometimes.

Yes.

I don't think you can Actually, you know, quantify abuse, start.

Where does it end?

And it's how you perceive it.

And that's the whole point of estrangement.

People walking away, not discussing because they perceived it that way.

But sometimes the parents don't also want to discuss it because the parents are also hurting because that's how they were treated and the parents don't know how to discuss it.

I think family estrangement, sometimes, when I think of it, sometimes you have to do it.

You don't always have to, but sometimes people have to do it for their own sanity.

Yes, these are the choices you make.

We're talking about choices, but just make them.

Make choices that work for you and you can also unmake them.

And one of the things from trauma I've learned for myself, I can only speak about myself, is that my instinct is, oh, you know, if someone upsets me or someone's insulted me or rude, or even if I was like, I don't need this.

I don't like.

And walk away from this.

But that's not necessarily always the right.

I think that if you're going to choose estrangement, choose it carefully.

And also, you know, because it's hard to come back from it.

So if you're going to go for a long period and do that, you need to just really, it has to be thought out, not reactionary.

But sometimes it's the parents that are estranged from the children.

Parents make a choice sometimes.

You know, sure, I've heard lots of situations where the children choose to, but I've also had situations where the parents choose to.

I've seen that very rarely.

I've not.

I've never seen.

No, it happens, okay?

It happens where the parents choose to.

A lot of parents were estranged from the kids just because they were gay.

I mean, that was very common.

I know a lot of gay friends that have told me so many stories.

Because the child decided to marry someone from a different religion.

Yeah, that's so common.

Where the parents.

I mean, obviously I cannot dream in a world where I will be estranged from my child because I feel like as a mother, it is my job to make sure no matter what my child chooses to be, of course I can say to them, this is what you're doing.

I'm not going to talk to you right now.

And maybe when you make a different choice, you know, if they're doing something really crazy.

But to be totally estranged from my own child will be something I cannot.

Fathom because it's hypothetical.

If you don't know who your child is, what your child will do.

I mean, I. I just don't think that you.

You can.

We can, I think, make any blanket statements.

I think if.

It depends.

If your child harmed you, that's one thing.

You know what I mean?

What if your child harmed someone else?

I still wouldn't be estranged.

I might not talk to them.

I might not.

But I would always give them.

I think it's always important to have that pit of reliance.

Your child harmed your other child.

Even then I would still have to give them the light.

Obviously, they'll be in jail, but I would still be the one to write those letters.

I would be the one to say, you know what, what you did is bad.

This is this.

But I want you to know that there's still light in here because I believe that's a representation of true love.

There's a very good book written by.

There's something.

I think there's Something Wrong with Kevin by Lionel Shriver.

I'm not sure of the exact title.

That was very moving and very powerful and very disturbing.

Sort of dealt a little bit with that subject.

As you know, I worked in.

My background was working in finance and we worked with many, many family offices.

And I had a mentor.

He's out there.

Hello, client, mentor, friend, all these things.

And.

And he.

He was incredibly successful.

He built one of the biggest private wealth businesses and amongst other things.

And he made a fortune.

I mean, a fortune.

I don't know, maybe a billion.

I have no idea.

He donated all to charity.

And he let me, the children's trustees, he said I gave them enough so they don't have to worry, but I didn't give them enough that they don't have to work.

And all I saw managing family money were families fighting each other and falling out.

And he said, I didn't want that to happen to my family.

So I gave it all away.

And, you know, we talked a lot.

Not talking about family estrangement, but when we talk, we supposed to be having business lunch.

And then we ended talking about personal things.

And he.

He said something very profound to me.

This goes into the father estrangement.

Personally, I feel that fathers who abandon their children, there's a special place in hell for you.

I mean, that, you know, you cannot abandon a child like that.

But he told me so when he was young, in his, like, little playboy days.

And he had a fling, a very short fling, and a woman had a child.

And then he got married and he had children.

They got divorced, then he got remarried.

Then he Adopted a child.

And he said, you know, I really rethought my life and the decisions I made.

And he says, I love the adopted child as much as I love my other children.

He goes, and then I, I realized I really wanted to have a relationship with my son.

And I, I, I made a bad decision.

I wanted to correct that.

And he has a wonderful relationship with his son now.

And he said, you know, your capacity to love is sort of infinite.

And you know, he, and the fact that he real.

And he talks to other businessmen, other people about that and how he made this wrong decision, then he became, corrected it and he has this and, and the regret for those years where he wasn't there for his son.

And I thought that's just really.

Yeah, but that is someone who realizes his flaws.

And he chose to make up strange, not be estranged, you see.

And he decided, no, I'm going to try and make this relationship work.

But I've seen and I know many situations where families have totally gaslit one or two of their children.

And also being born in a family and having siblings, sometimes two or three, two siblings or maybe three or whatever, they all have a different experience in the same family.

I know of an incident of someone who grew up in a very abusive family.

When I say abusive, I mean terrible stories, you know.

Yes, I, I've seen father very abusive.

The sister does not think so because the biggest sister was 15 years older when she was born and she faced all the abuse because they were, the others were too young to be abused.

So she faced the beatings of this.

And by the time she left and the others grew to her age, the father died.

So they never experienced that.

So their experience of their father when they talk to her is like, oh, I don't like the way he treated you.

But they know, they're conscious of it because they saw it, but they were never treated like that.

And she told me it's so hard for her because they just can't see where she's coming from.

I mean, he abused her so badly.

She has scars on her legs from sticks, umbrellas that she said, when I talk with my sisters, they just don't see that.

They say, yes, I know he treated you really bad.

But you know, they don't because they were too young, because he never did that to them.

They just can't understand.

Is that a reason for her to be estranged from them?

Because she's not estranged from them.

She was estranged from him.

She had to leave because he, of course, you know what I mean?

But that caused estrangement from them because she was away from home for so long, because he was alive.

So by the time he died, they weren't close because they were young when she left.

So by the time she came back, I mean, they're still close, but I guess, you know, it's something you have to build.

My younger sister, my only sister, I should say my younger sister, sadly, my brother passed away at a very young and unexpected age.

And I flew back for the funeral and I hadn't seen my younger sister, she's 13 years younger, for quite a while.

And we sat there, probably since her wedding, and we sat there and I say to people, I said, I could feel the DNA.

I could feel it even though I had not as much interaction, because by the time I was grown up, I was off to university.

I was off to, you know, when she was growing up and went and started working and I was halfway around the world anyway, I felt the DNA and I wanted to make this effort to get closer to goods because you feel it.

You feel she's me.

But then on the other hand, she.

There's a part of her that isn't me.

And she's.

She's much more prickly than I am.

And she's, you know, when she gets stressed, she doesn't handle it super well.

I think once she shouted at me and my trauma instinct to say, folks, this, I am not.

I am just not going to accept that.

And then I realized.

And she realized that, okay, we're going to make an effort, that we're just move past that, continue to see each other and be in each other's lives.

But it is an effort.

And when I'm flying halfway around the world, she's flying here.

We're trying to do it, and we acknowledge that we're quite different personalities.

And she.

With my mother, her perception is different.

But then again, I didn't grow up in the house that she grew up in, okay?

So I can't judge her and her perception of that, you know, and.

And I know what she says.

A lot of it is valid, but I also am a lot more, I take it, you know, I see my mother came from a different culture.

We don't know what trauma she experienced and how hard that is to go and move into a whole other culture speaking a different language with different people, and then probably dealing with a lot of racism.

Let's not forget that that was there and how hard that must have been.

I see it with a gentler veil.

Whatever experience you had with Your mother obviously was not a cause for estrangement, because you're not estranged.

You know what I'm saying?

No, but it's also because you knew, in a way that whatever she did was coming from a place of love.

But that's how she knew how to love, because that was her culture.

It didn't feel loving sometimes.

It didn't feel loving when you did not feel loving.

I'm sure when you look back, you feel like that.

But, you know, another thing people don't talk enough about estrangement is for a lot of people that do get estranged from their families, it also comes with guilt.

Even the person that's estranged feels guilty, you know, because they feel burdened with this thing where they.

They want to be not estranged from their family, but they are estranged.

And there's a kind of guilt from the party that estranges themselves because they feel like they shouldn't, because that's all, you know, especially family.

That's what you grow up with.

That's who you know, you know, and then all of a sudden, they don't exist in your life anymore.

It must be hard for a lot of people when they go through that type of stuff.

There's definitely family members where I'm like, I'm not looking forward to seeing you.

I don't want to see you, and I don't want to hear your nonsense.

And you're not going to gaslight me.

Yeah, but that's another question.

You know, when you talk about that, there is the family, let's say the nuclear family.

Mother, father, children.

Then there's the extended family, this, the cousins, the aunts.

If one is estranged from other members of their family, let's say the aunts, the extended members, the aunts, the uncles, the cousins.

Is that really estrangement?

Because some people actually grow up in a family where they never meet their cousins or the.

Because they grew up in a different country, they grew up in a different environment, and so they meet them on.

Later in life, in adulthood, sometimes.

I'll confess, when I was on Facebook, I'm not really on Facebook.

When I was on Facebook, I had several cousins who were.

Her politics were much further to the right than mine.

And I was looking, and this is a whole.

The US Is polarized right now.

And I was thinking, I have nothing in common with you.

And I took them all off.

And that was really quite petty.

I've heard that's normal in the US now.

You know, you can't even watch the news.

The country is so polarized And I get it, I get that.

And politics, forget money, forget everything.

Politics is what divides families now in.

The US in particular, like politics and stuff.

But is that because people are not putting their family first?

Because I also think what is happening in the past, people will say that the unit comes first.

So nothing breaks the unit, the unit stays together, and then everything else comes second.

So even if have different political views, you try to keep the unit together.

Depends what your priorities are.

That's what I'm saying.

Because priorities, it's changed now in the world, you know, and also there's the thing with nuclear families.

I also see people who get married and their parents become not as strange, but kind of outsiders to their new relationship.

And a lot of it also depends on culture.

But being estranged from one's family is not necessarily.

Even though a lot of it depends on culture, it's not necessarily a cultural thing.

Because some cultures tend to stay together.

Because family estrangement is viewed as a taboo.

Yes, very much so.

Judge people judge you, everybody's judging.

And you're ostracized from the whole community.

Where in the west it's normalized.

If you tell someone, I don't talk to my mother, they're like, okay, next people say okay, in the west it's more accepted.

You know, so many people tell you things like, oh, I don't talk to my brother and stuff, but yes they do.

In ethnic cultures, the family's everything.

And things could be going bad in that family.

Things could be.

Abuse could be happening, control.

I mean, how many women have had to stay and face abuse even if they have the means to leave because of what the society.

Because of what society would say or because of what their community would say, or they'll be frowned upon, they'll be ostracized.

And so I do think this family estrangement topic is a very important topic.

Because if you're listening to this, you're out there and you're not being treated right, or you're being abused, or you're being emotionally and financially controlled.

Sometimes you do have to make the right decisions for your own mental health.

Yes, absolutely.

I mean, absolutely.

If you're in danger, leave, domestic abuse, leave, just leave.

Do not accept that.

Don't, you know, controlling verbal abuse, Just leave if you can.

But then, as you said, it's harder to leave a family.

It's probably easier to leave a spouse in some ways maybe than your family.

I don't know.

The mother daughter relationship is famously difficult.

And we rarely estrange from our mothers.

But I'm not saying I've never thought about it.

I have thought about it, you know, and I've had go long periods where I said, I just don't want to talk with her.

But then I just mellowed and she mellowed and I.

And I think back and I cringe when I kind of got irritated with her just because she can be annoying.

Our mothers can be annoying.

Yeah.

But I think mothers mellow with age, and fathers too.

I mean, everybody mellows with age.

My father, although he's mellow and he's just the most lovely man, he's gotten grumpier as he's gotten older.

But, you know, the thing is, a lot of people mellow with age, and even if they're ostracized, they try to make do.

But I've also had cases where people are just stuck in their ways and they're like, nah, I don't want to talk to my child.

I'm not talking to my mother.

You know, like, and they're older, they're like in the deathbed, and they're still like, holding on to that grudge or whatever it is.

That's their decision.

Maybe they made the best decision for them.

I think that estrangement is going to.

The trend is it's going to keep getting higher, not lower.

I think people are having smaller family unions, less children, if they have children at all.

And when you.

When you get that, you know, things can be really toxic.

So I think that what we're seeing now is gonna.

This trend is gonna continue.

I think you're just gonna see more people, like they say, friends of the family you choose.

And I think that people are choosing a different family that works better for them, for their mental health, for whatever.

And now because you don't have societal pressure telling you you have to see your family, you must this and that, or hopefully you don't have financial pressure as well, then you do choose.

You choose.

You know what I'm gonna choose.

The time I spend, that's for me, you know, And I'm gonna with the family.

I choose my friends, as we discuss this subject, obviously we're talking about family estrangement, but I think we have to make it clear it's not wrong or right.

I think it all is based on the decisions you make, whether it's for your mental health.

And obviously, if you feel like you want to make contact with your family, you can but make it, make that decision from a healthier mind.

So obviously, if you are Estranged from your.

And you want to go back, then approach it from a healthier mind.

And if they start gaslighting you or doing or abusing you like they did before, then you could pull back.

I'm thinking, there's an author, American author, Bernard Malamud, he wrote these beautiful little short stories, and they were wonderful.

And he was Jewish, and he married a woman who wasn't Jewish.

And he talked about how his parents, they would literally, I think, mourn you because you were dead.

Because he married outside the faith.

Yeah, they used to do that.

And then.

That's so strict.

But then it wasn't so long ago that that was a normal thing to do.

And then he had grandchildren, and then they kind of were like, we really want to see our grandchildren.

Was this the right thing?

And they came back and then everyone but that, you know, it was a big deal.

You have to understand priorities and what, what defines you and what, you know, that, that.

Imagine sitting mourning for your child who's still alive because they married.

We can't imagine that today.

We cannot imagine that today.

And yet there's more estrangement than ever.

We were sitting in judgment.

You're going to mourn over that, but yet look at people.

Just choose it.

I think that in that story that really moved me was that.

That how they could just come back and being a happy family.

The grandchildren reunited them because they wanted to be.

He wanted.

Their grandparents want to be a part of their grandchildren's lives.

And you often see that with parents and children who, you know, fraught different person, butting heads.

But with their grandchildren, they've kind of mellowed a lot.

They're going to play with them.

They're like, you know, when maybe I was a little tough and so the grandchildren can't see, you know, when my.

When I was young, okay, if I got a bad report card, I was talking in class.

I was, you know, normal stuff.

I got the belt.

Okay.

I got hit with a belt when I came here, but there was a bad report card.

You come home.

My mother said, I have to show it to your father.

When your father gets home.

You knew about.

So what I'd go and do.

And I put on as many pairs of pants as I could.

Underpants.

Literally walking like this, full of underpants and pants.

And I was like, ready for it because I knew I was going to get it.

And my dad said, you know, that.

That I don't know if you've ever heard.

When I'm kind, he'd say, okay, you know this hurts me more than this hurts you.

I said, I doubt that.

I really doubt that.

And I got to.

Who would belt you, your dad or your mom?

No, my mother, if she tried to do it, she had like those little designer belts that didn't hurt at all.

My brother and I would say, we're going to.

I'm going to give you the belt.

And we'd be like, no, no.

So your mom would tell your dad to belt you.

That shouldn't tell him.

It was.

If you had a bad report card, you got the belt.

That was it.

So he wanted it or she wanted, was the rule.

There was no.

They both wanted it.

You could not, you could not misbehave in school.

Now if.

And the father had.

My father had to do it.

He'd come home from work.

I mean, they probably got worked all day and he's got to come home.

It's time to beat the kid.

All right.

You know, and they didn't leave any marks, specifically because I put so many underpants, so many pounds.

But that was normal today.

If you came home and, you know, you had a small child say, okay, you got that bad report card, you know, now you're going to get the belt.

You would.

They would call, you know, 999, you would 911 call.

But even back then, if you had called.

But the thing is, you don't want to be away from your family.

So, yeah, family estranged.

It just depends on how you look at things, I guess.

A lot of it.

But some families do.

I mean, I don't want to say deserve to be estranged from, but people sometimes just need to get away.

There's not the shame wrapped around it.

There is survival.

There are.

You make the right decisions for you.

We, we now, you know, we live in a society which is quite nice in the sense that I. I can speak personally for myself.

I care very little what other people think.

I got to the place, I wasn't like this in my twenties.

As you get older, you're kind of like, really, really.

You can have your opinion.

That's fine.

You can think what you like.

I used to tell one of my best friends, she's like, oh, you know, and the people are saying this.

And I said, you know, go live your life.

Do what you're going to do and do what you want to do, because people are going to say, you did it anyway.

True.

You know, haters are going to hate you.

Live your life for you.

True.

And.

And if you need to make that decision, regardless of what anyone else Thinks you do it for you.

But also when you're making that decision, if you have children, if you're estranged, you make that for your children too.

Okay.

So you need to think about that and the repercussions of that.

Yeah.

Because estrangement is really about not loving someone.

It's about what it costs to stay.

You know, a lot of times it's the cost.

It's the cost of your self esteem, it's the cost of your physical well being, your mental well being.

What is the cost?

Yeah.

And when you leave, sometimes it's not like you miss the person, but you sometimes miss the version of them you wanted them to be.

So it's also painful when you leave.

And when you're on that whole kind of drama cycle, it's sort of hard to get off because that's so addictive to your brain.

That's another episode.

But I think that you stay because there's many reasons you could stay and there's many reasons you can go.

But you should think through it very carefully.

Yeah.

And you have to remember that relief is not the absence of love, it is the presence of safety.

So sometimes you just have to be safe and you have to leave so that you can move on.

And hopefully you heal and become a better person or make a bigger world.

For yourself, Paint a new picture.

And you can always try and go back and talk to them and if they are willing and open to receive, maybe you can, you know, form a family bond again.

Family estrangement's a big thing at the moment.

No, no, no.

I, out of everyone I know, and I think of my closest friends who are really honest, there is some level of estrangement with someone, whether it's a distant family member or whether it's.

But there is a level of estrangement.

With at least one person.

One person.

But that's just human in general, don't you think?

But in many cases it's much closer than that.

Of course, of course, I agree.

As in it's.

It's a more closer family member.

But what I mean, it's a human tendency that if sometimes we don't get what we need, we.

And in today's world is much easier.

We move away from that situation and we try and, you know, find ourselves or find safety in somewhere else.

And when we're ready, we can try and make connections again.

Well, I think that's all we've got time for today because we actually started at the studio late, so my fault, I was late.

She's going to become estranged from me.

Yeah, I'm going to become estranged from you, Maddie, after this episode because you came to the studio.

I'm so sorry.

I just caught up and we're going through the trap.

I know.

And anyway, until next time, we love having these conversations with you, don't we?

Oh, we do.

We do.

We do.

There's so much to talk about.

So until next time, please join us again.

Yeah, they will send us your comments.

I read them.

I scroll through.

I scroll through the comments.

I do like to read the comments.

Like subscribe and comment.

I like to.

I like to.

To see what people are thinking and.

Maybe you should reply.

I reply.

I reply.

I just hit it like, like,.

Thank you.

Until next time.

See you.

Thank you.