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ADHD in the Golden Years: Strategies, Insights, and Hope with Dr. Kathleen Nadeau
Episode 14 • 3rd April 2024 • ADHD Powerful Possibilities: New and Late Diagnosis & Beyond • ADHD Coach Katherine Sanders
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ADHD Coach Katherine Sanders Katherine Sanders, AACG

In this special episode ADHD Coach Katherine invites Dr. Kathleen Nadeau, a luminary in the field of ADHD for adults, to share her experience & insights into the unique challenges and bright prospects for adults over 45 living with ADHD.

From the necessity of diagnosis at ANY AGE, we cover the crucial role of community, gender dynamics in ADHD, and the value of acceptance and support.

Featuring practical advice as well as wonderful stories, this episode shows that age is not a barrier to the boundless possibilities of life with ADHD.

Join me for a real treat, hearing Dr. Nadeau's unparalleled expertise in the world of ADHD over 50 and for women.

Dr Nadea's APSARD petition is shared below -

Connect with Katherine here:


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Facebook

Youtube

LinkedIN

Threads 



APSARD petition -

https://www.change.org/p/improve-gender-equity-in-the-diagnosis-of-adult-adhd-petition-to-apsard?original_footer_petition_id=37693378&algorithm=promoted&source_location=petition_footer&grid_position=18&pt=AVBldGl0aW9uAKWQQgIAAAAAZfdRdOuA5Fg4ZjNjNjgyNQ%3D%3D


Dr Nadeau’s centre -

https://thechesapeakecenter.com/


Still Distracted After All these years (UK amazon link) -

https://amzn.to/4agAVZv

Transcripts

Speaker:

Welcome back.

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My friend.

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It is ADHD.

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Powerful possibilities.

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I am your friend ADHD, coach Catherine.

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And this week we have a special guest.

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Dr.

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Kathleen Nadeau author of many

books, not least of which is still

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distracted after all these years,

which I would say is probably my

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favorite book about ADHD for adults.

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But especially if you're

over 45, And going on.

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If you're younger, it will

still give you an insight into.

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What life could be late.

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When you're diagnosed later.

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I wanted to share this episode last week.

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As you can hear.

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I am still not quite back to myself.

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It's taken me a longer.

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To edit and to recover.

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And So grateful to Dr.

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Neto for her time.

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I have another special guest lined

up next month in the meantime.

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I want to invite you

to enjoy this episode.

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We cover a wide range of topics.

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Everything from why older people

with ADHD need to have a diagnosis.

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The benefits of that for

them and for their families.

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How we can support all the people with

ADHD, particularly after retirement.

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We talk about the role of gender in

ADHD and expectations, particularly

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in societies where the role of

women is still very much as.

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As a support human for others.

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And most of all, we talk about how

important their, all of community.

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Structure safety and acceptances.

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We do cover some issues around what

it's like to be a woman in different

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countries and particularly Countries where

women are not given the opportunities

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that they may enjoy in the west.

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But I would say that.

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The challenges.

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Anyone with ADHD faces.

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Are significant.

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And so I invite you to

enjoy this episode with her.

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Toronado.

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I apologize in advance

for the audio quality.

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And I've done my best.

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But the there's some noise.

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I hope it's bearable for you.

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I do my best to edit.

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The clicks and the fidgets, which happened

when I interviewed people late at night.

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I've included in the show notes.

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A link to the petition that Dr.

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Nando mentions.

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And I've also got a few links to her own

resources and other places where you can

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go to find community to find some help.

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And just two.

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Eh, discover what is possible when you're

an older person or a woman with ADHD.

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So enjoy this slightly longer

than usual episode, and I will

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be back cause you next week.

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Katherine: Thank you so much.

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Dr.

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Kathleen Nadeau, for giving us your

time today, I mentioned you in my

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podcast that just came out I described

you as the OG, the original when it

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comes to ADHD and women and your book

still distracted after all these years.

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I've got so many post it notes

and marks and things and it is,

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it made such a difference to

me when I was able to find it.

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Read it and understand

so much about my life.

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And so to celebrate women with ADHD

in March I've asked you to come

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and share the thing that you really

want women to know about ADHD.

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And in particular, I guess, for,

you know, Those of us over 50, we

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sometimes feel like a lot of the

attention is on younger people.

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Please tell us, what is it that

you have learned and seen so

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often in your experience with

this particular group of people?

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

Absolutely, I would love to do that,

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and I, of course, am also a woman with

ADHD, well over 50, and funny that

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it took me a long time to convince a

publisher that there was a need for

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a book about older adults with ADHD.

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Because if you think back, it

hasn't been many years that we've

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recognized that adults have ADHD.

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You know, the first 10 or 15 years

that I specialized in ADHD, most people

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believed, I wasn't among them, but most

people believed that The great majority

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of people didn't have symptoms to

speak of after they passed their 21st

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birthday, which is, of course, absurd,

and we now know that is not the case.

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But before I start talking about older

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with ADHD.

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I would like to tell you something,

and I hope you can broadcast it to all

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of your listeners, and that is that

I am starting a petition, to APSARD.

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And APSARD is the American

Professional Society for

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Attention and Related Disorders.

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The U.

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S.

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professional society for

everyone that focuses on ADHD.

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And they are in the process of

developing guidelines, recommendations

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for adult diagnostic criteria.

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As most of your listeners

know, the diagnostic criteria

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based on our observations of little boys.

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And we've kept tweaking the diagnostic

criteria, but we've never done a

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major revision, and we've never

developed diagnostic criteria

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that were really specifically

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adults.

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Thank you.

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So my petition is, there's a committee,

a very highly regarded committee

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that is developing these guidelines.

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My petition is, please, as you

develop these adult guidelines,

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please focus on guidelines that

will better diagnose women.

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Because that's the huge missing piece.

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They went from children to adults.

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But the child criteria are based

on boys, and the adult criteria are

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on men.

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Thank you.

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And so we have a petition

that anyone can sign.

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It hasn't been posted yet.

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We plan to post it probably in the next

48 hours on an online site called change.

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and it's a petition to APSARD,

A P S A R D, on more time.

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Thank you.

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Gender equitable diagnostic

criteria for women, and I want

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to get as many signatures as we

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And we're going to present this to APSAR

that we have:

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signed on and we're getting certainly

People that have devoted their career

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to focusing on the issues of girls and

women are the authors of this petition.

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And then we want to get as many people,

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

as possible to

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

I think one of the things that I

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would start with is that many women,

I would say the majority of women

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that come as adults finally seeking

an ADHD diagnosis have already

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been diagnosed with something else.

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that's

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is often depression or anxiety

could be other issues as well,

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but those are the most common.

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And psychiatrists, psychologists

think, no, this is depression.

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That's why you can't focus.

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No, this is anxiety.

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That's why you're so

scattered completely missing.

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The ADHD.

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Back to us older women, I've

all, I've spent my long career

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looking at who are we ignoring?

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the first venture was we're ignoring

the adults, and that's when we thought

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it was a disorder of childhood.

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And my very first professional book was

on diagnosis and treatment of adult ADHD.

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And when I.

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Finished that book.

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I thought, who are we ignoring?

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Girls and women.

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And so the books came out,

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understanding girls with ADHD,

understanding women with ADHD.

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this last is another huge population

that we've been ignoring, and

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that is older adults with ADHD.

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And statistically, this

is an amazing statistic.

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By the year 2030, we're talking

about six years, there will

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be more in the United States.

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It's probably the same in the UK.

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There'll be more people over 65.

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Then under 18

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Katherine: Goodness.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

in the country, which if you think

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about it means that there are more

older adults with ADHD than and teens

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with ADHD because our demographics are

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

And so it's just so important to

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focus on the needs of older adults.

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And I'll tell you a funny story.

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My husband is a scientist, not

a mental health professional.

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And when I told him.

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That I was starting to write this book.

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His immediate question, and I think

it's a question a lot of people

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ask is, does an older adult even

need to get diagnosed with ADHD?

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I mean, they're not in school.

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They're not working.

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I mean, why do they deem just completely

misunderstanding that ADHD impacts?

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Absolutely every aspect of our existence.

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It impacts the way we

interact with people.

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It impacts the way we

feel about ourselves.

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It impacts what we can accomplish during

the day, how much sleep we get at night.

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I mean, it's hard to find

something that it doesn't impact.

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And message is it's very

important and I've had some

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adults ask me, well, I've lived

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it, not knowing I had it.

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So why does it matter?

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You know, they're almost

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

the possibility that their life can

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change and improve if they understand.

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What's

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

So that's what motivated

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me to write this book.

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And it took me about 10 years to

convince a publisher that there would

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be a market for a book for older adults.

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And I think what really convinced

them was the change in demographics.

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I was able to tell them that in the U.

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S.

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In the U.

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S.

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Over 10, 000 people per

day reach their 65th

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Katherine: Oh.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306: So

every day, 10, 000 more, 10, 000 more.

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So there's a huge number of people.

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And because of how long it's taken

us To understand ADHD, all these

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people 65 and older, almost none

of them are diagnosed, almost none.

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They

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Katherine: And I think thing you said

about what's the point of being diagnosed

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now something that I've heard quite often.

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You know, I've got clients from, , 18 to

70 and the older people a few of them,

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I said, my children don't see the point.

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My grandson, my granddaughter's

being diagnosed, but they don't

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understand why I want to bother.

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So I think, what you're saying

about it affecting every single part

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of your life throughout your whole

life is something that people don't

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understand yet and they write it off.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

don't understand it, but I

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also think it's a function of

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that if you're 65 or 70, You don't have

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to accomplish you know,

doesn't matter, nothing you do

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

And I am well past my 65th

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birthday and still have a lot I

want to accomplish in this life.

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And I see that in more and more adults,

that later years are very different.

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I think about it frequently that my life

I'm in my late 70s now, and my life is

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utterly different from my parents lives.

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I mean, my father died in his late

70s, my mother had not taken care of

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herself, she had difficulty walking,

she was not very mobile, I mean, she

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was a little old lady as we think of it.

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And I think our generation

has really realized that.

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That a lot of that is self imposed, a lot

of it is not eating well, not sleeping

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well, not exercising, and also attitude.

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I'm old.

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Where's my rocking chair?

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I should

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Katherine: Yeah, absolutely.

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And when you were talking in the book

about the kind of daily habits and the

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studies that show that you can improve

your brain health and your physical

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health at any age do you sometimes find

people are a little more resistant to

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change because they maybe feel ashamed

or embarrassed about not doing things

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better when they were younger, or are

they quite open to adding new things

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to live better as they get older?

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306: I

don't that people are feeling ashamed,

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but I do find that people often feel

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Katherine: overwhelmed

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Mm-Hmm.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

And I can give you an example

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

I have An old college roommate, she

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and I have been friends forever,

and sadly she was diagnosed

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with Alzheimer's about two years

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and I went to see her, I only get

to see her about once a year maybe,

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and she shared that with me, it was

clearly in the very early stages, I

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said, do you know about the book by

Dale Bredesen, his studies of how

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much you can not only stop cognitive

decline, but actually reverse it?

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And she nodded and said,

yes I've heard about it.

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I have the book and it's

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Too much.

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Too much.

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And I think for her, and I think for many

people, they're not looking at how can

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I begin to make changes, they're looking

at here am I, and here is what Dale

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and Medical professionals think I

ought to be doing and there's so much,

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far apart.

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I can't possibly do it.

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I give up before I

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and I think one of the things that

Bredesen realized he's trained a

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lot of physicians in his approach

and one of the things they came to

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realize is that people need coaching

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

You can't just say here's the list of

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go home and do it because it does feel

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And I've done a lot of work with

people on Changing how they eat and

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I've changed how I eat if I look back

at what I ate 25 or 30 years ago, no

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

and I didn't eat a horrible

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diet But it was filled with

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junky snacks and fast food

sometimes, and you know, I just

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wasn't paying particular attention.

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the change that I've undergone that

I really try to teach people was very

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Because I find that any, you

know, it's like New Year's

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

I'm going to get up in the

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morning, I'm going to run a

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

then I'm going to, you know.

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And we all know how those resolutions

go, and so we really are developing

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at my clinic of trying to help people

just make small, incremental changes.

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Let's make a change that's so small

that you know you can get up in the

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morning and do it and the next morning

and do it because it's not a huge

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

And it really all needs to be integrated

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that as we're learning that we need

to be more active, I mean, you might

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start with, you're going to walk your

dog around the block after breakfast.

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I mean, it doesn't,

you don't have to run a

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Katherine: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306: I

think this is an enormously important

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message as we're living longer we, there

really is such a thing as brain health.

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And we're just starting to realize

that we can have a huge impact.

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I mean, we've known that about our

hearts and you know, our muscles, but

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there really is brain health and we can

have a negative impact on our brain.

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By drinking too much alcohol, by getting

too little sleep or very poor quality

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sleep, by rarely exercising, So that's

a important message for older people,

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but for middle aged people and that's

really, think, when I started thinking

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about it when I was no longer young,

and we can get away with an awful lot

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abusing our bodies when we're in our 20s

and 30s, and even into our early 40s,

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but then it's starting to get real, and

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

absolutely.

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

But going back to, why does it matter

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if you have ADHD as an older adult?

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I gave every, I interviewed 150 people,

and each of them for at least an hour.

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Very personal interview.

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Half were men, half were women.

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And I asked them, in particular,

are the ways in which you are

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most negatively impacted by ADHD?

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ADHD, and the number one thing was,

I just can't seem to get anything

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done, and they were saying this with

resignation, with a little bit of

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sadness, that I had so many dreams of

what I was going to do when I retired.

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I was going to write a book.

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I was going to paint.

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I was going to.

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Hike the Appalachian Trail, whatever

their dream was, yet older adults with

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ADHD tell me, feel like I've been busy

all day and I have no idea what I did

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with my time, and I certainly am not

living the life I want to live or that I

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Katherine: Yeah, and I think they

are able to understand that this is

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ADHD rather than a personal failing

or weakness, it opens the window a

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little bit so they feel that they can

move forward instead of being stuck in

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that cycle of not knowing what to No.

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Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

powerful things that we can offer to

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people of all ages, but especially

to older adults, is group involvement

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to belong to a group of people your

age with ADHD because for the great

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majority of people, they've never

had that experience in their life.

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They've just compared themselves

to people without ADHD.

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And I'm such a failure.

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I'm so forgetful.

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I mess everything up etc.

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And My clinic, when COVID hit which

is beginning to be a number of

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We started a number of free online

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And one of those support groups

was for older adults with ADHD.

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And I, and one of my longtime

colleagues at my clinic, who's about

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my age, decided we would do that.

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do it together.

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So she and I started and it was free.

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It was online.

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Anybody could join and surprise

an occasional exception.

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It was

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Katherine: all women

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Mm hmm.

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Mm

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

Of times a man would join us and just

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online, listening, say very little.

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And after a time or two,

never show up again.

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Obviously they hadn't found

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But the point I was trying to make is

these were all older women with ADHD.

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And they said in pretty

short order that it was.

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The most important event

of their week to talk with

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306: and

we were just, I and my colleague were

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just facilitating the group discussion.

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I mean, we might answer a question

about ADHD or, you know, give

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a little opening commentary

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Strike discussion off.

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But they were really connecting with each

other, encouraging each other appreciating

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understanding

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

And what was so interesting is.

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Almost every one of them was

very creative in one way or

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Katherine: Yeah.

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kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

and they began to share that, and it

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was show and tell, you know, look at

the quilt I'm working on, look at the

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painting I just finished, or let me read

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I wrote last week.

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I mean, it was an amazing, creative bunch

of women, and this was just beautiful.

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A random group of women.

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It wasn't a

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group for creative women, but I

really think that's something we

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don't enough about is there really

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a strong creative streak.

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And that may be very kind of brain that

makes it hard for us to remember all the

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mundane details of our day is the very

kind of brain, because it is thinking.

376

:

In lots of different directions and making

377

:

Katherine: Yeah.

378

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

is a creative

379

:

Katherine: Yeah.

380

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

And I think one of my strongest

381

:

messages now there, there's a whole

movement, fairly recent, and it

382

:

started among people on the autism

spectrum, talking about neurodiversity

383

:

and that autism is a type of

384

:

And we were, used to see it as a type

of disorder that we're supposed to fix

385

:

or wish we didn't have and I really

believe that ADHD is a type of brain

386

:

and because we started looking at it in

school children and the way school is

387

:

Katherine: Yeah.

388

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306: it's

389

:

ADD friendly place to

be when you're a kid.

390

:

And so we started off

thinking of it as a disorder.

391

:

How do we fix this so

they can sit in their seat

392

:

and listen to the teacher?

393

:

When I really think what we should have

been asking is, how can we design an

394

:

educational experience suits their brain,

suits their need for stimulation and

395

:

Katherine: My own small group of six

women single one of them is creative?

396

:

painters, artists, writers,

397

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306: That

398

:

Katherine: you know, it's, and it's,

399

:

as you say, it's the community and

the support and the understanding

400

:

that they find really valuable.

401

:

But I'm thinking, is there an element of

that creative brain that leads us into

402

:

things like they're all self employed

or there's a couple of academics,

403

:

but most of them are self employed.

404

:

You could argue many academics

are almost self-employed

405

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

right?

406

:

Katherine: is that the same strength

that comes from the creative end of the

407

:

A DHD brain, maybe in the workplace?

408

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

Well, I, they've done studies that

409

:

show that there's a much higher

rate of ADHD among entrepreneurs.

410

:

it's for the same reason ADHD brains,

very good at coming up with ideas not

411

:

so good at following schedules and

following rules and fitting into some

412

:

kind of organization that requires

a lot of careful self management.

413

:

So I think creative people, I mean

you can't, I mean you could say it, it

414

:

wouldn't work very well, alright, your

assignment is to write a book and it's due

415

:

in six weeks, well you could write a book

in six weeks, it wouldn't be a very good

416

:

And we all know full well that

some of the best known authors

417

:

spent years writing a book.

418

:

I mean creativity can't be done on paper.

419

:

Demand.

420

:

The metaphor I use is that we need to

plant ourselves in the right garden.

421

:

And it's not that everybody with

ADHD belongs in the same garden.

422

:

That's not true at all.

423

:

I mean, some people with

ADHD are very I agree.

424

:

extroverted, hyperactive, hyper social.

425

:

And these are the people with ADHD

that go into entertainment and politics

426

:

and sales and whatever involves

427

:

Katherine: Yeah.

428

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

persuasion and interaction.

429

:

And as you well know, there are people

that seem completely the opposite

430

:

that are quiet and more introverted.

431

:

And I think one of the things that I

have as a mission is to explain that

432

:

this thing we call ADHD is It's very

433

:

And, I'm just thinking of a

young man that I was doing a

434

:

career assessment on recently.

435

:

And I always want to look at the testing

436

:

If there has been testing done

to integrate that information

437

:

into making career suggestions.

438

:

So he didn't have a copy of it.

439

:

He was 21.

440

:

And I said, may I email your mother?

441

:

And I did.

442

:

And her initial response was,

well, why do you need it?

443

:

You he has an ADHD diagnosis as if her

belief was that once you know that, then

444

:

you know exactly what my son is like.

445

:

And that's not the case at all because

we are whole complicated people.

446

:

We're not just, you know, we

can't just stick an ADHD label

447

:

on ourselves and be done with it.

448

:

And so have to take all

of that into account.

449

:

And I really want leave a message

for people that may be uncomfortable

450

:

with this diagnosis, that it

doesn't put you in a box in any way.

451

:

really provides you a window to begin

to understand yourself better and to

452

:

understand the kind of environment

in which you're going to thrive.

453

:

Katherine: Yeah.

454

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306: And

one of the stories that I wrote about

455

:

in my book was an older woman with ADHD.

456

:

And she'd been an art teacher, there you

457

:

with the creativity, and had raised

two daughters on her own and had been

458

:

pretty darn functional all of her life.

459

:

And then she retired and her

daughters were grown and had

460

:

moved to different cities.

461

:

So she decided to move

near one of her daughters.

462

:

Which, you know, sounds like a good

463

:

Why not?

464

:

And her life absolutely fell apart.

465

:

And her daughter came to me

going, This is my mom's situation.

466

:

What in the world

467

:

Katherine: yeah.

468

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

And what had happened, when you

469

:

think about it, is we people

with ADHD need structure and

470

:

Because the thing that our brains aren't

that good at is staying on time and

471

:

Thanks for watching!

472

:

That's not what our brains are focused on.

473

:

And so she had a busy life

with lots of structure.

474

:

She had a job.

475

:

She had colleagues.

476

:

where she was supposed to be when.

477

:

And she was in an environment

where the bells rang at the end of

478

:

You know, it kept her on track.

479

:

And her daughter's

activities kept her on track.

480

:

So she moves to this city

where she doesn't know

481

:

but her daughter.

482

:

Who has a busy life.

483

:

She's a working career

woman with raising kids.

484

:

She moves into a little apartment

nearby, and she doesn't even get herself

485

:

Katherine: unpacked

486

:

hmm.

487

:

Ah.

488

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

Her daughter said, when I go

489

:

over to my mother's, there's a

wall stacked with unpacked boxes.

490

:

She just feels overwhelmed.

491

:

She doesn't know where to put

492

:

She's not cooking regular meals anymore.

493

:

She's living on her own.

494

:

On cheese and crackers and whatever

she can find in the refrigerator.

495

:

She has no bedtime.

496

:

She has no getting up time.

497

:

She has no activities.

498

:

She has no

499

:

And she was really struggling.

500

:

when I heard all this and met

her mother and talked with her.

501

:

It just really became clear

that we needed provide

502

:

With more structure, that her job and her

role in her life were no longer there.

503

:

And in her case, it was a pretty simple

fix in that her daughter, found a

504

:

senior community that was affordable

for her mother provided that structure.

505

:

It provided meals if you wanted them.

506

:

It provided social activities.

507

:

All you had to do is

508

:

And it, there was a structure to the

place that gave a structure to her day.

509

:

And within two or three months of

her moving there, She was her old

510

:

and was getting involved with art

again, and I think that's one of the

511

:

big struggles for older adults is when,

the structure of our social life goes

512

:

the structure of our work life, that

you have a time to get up and a place to

513

:

go and a time to get there, and all of

514

:

Katherine: Yeah.

515

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

helps our brain function.

516

:

Katherine: Yeah.

517

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

And then you begin to understand why

518

:

retired adults with ADHD say, I've

been busy all day and I don't know what

519

:

Katherine: Yeah.

520

:

Yeah.

521

:

And the isolation that you described

so clearly for that lady, I think, is

522

:

something that, you know, they talk

about an epidemic of loneliness, but

523

:

in,

524

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

Yes, I've been reading a lot

525

:

Katherine: the context of older women with

ADHD, whose children are grown, their

526

:

kids are busy, they don't have a job,

their partner maybe isn't around anymore.

527

:

Can we do?

528

:

How can we support these people better?

529

:

To connect with each other?

530

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

Absolutely.

531

:

And what I tell people, and there are

certainly different levels of it, is

532

:

that what's hard for us with ADHD is

to be the organizer of activities.

533

:

I mean, if we have to be the one to

say, okay, let's have a book club,

534

:

I'll call up nine people and

see if they want to be in

535

:

the club and I'll organize it

536

:

Katherine: yeah.

537

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306: Not

the strength set of someone with a HD.

538

:

And whether it's actually moving

into a senior community where

539

:

all that exists, or looking for.

540

:

Activities within your community.

541

:

It's just, it's so important at

every phase of life to wake up with

542

:

a sense of interest and possibility.

543

:

Katherine: yeah.

544

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

And it's not going to

545

:

happen if it's all up to us.

546

:

So there are volunteer activities.

547

:

I've encouraged a number of people

to go back to work part time.

548

:

I worked with a school teacher,

another school teacher, who was just

549

:

absolutely lost after she retired.

550

:

And I really encouraged her to

look around, and she got a job

551

:

a big, fancy resort a few miles

away from her little retirement

552

:

home, she worked in the gift shop.

553

:

You know, she was an intelligent woman.

554

:

She'd been a school teacher.

555

:

And so it certainly wasn't very

intellectually demanding, but

556

:

she loved it because she said

people are staying in the hotel.

557

:

And she was telling me all these

celebrities that had come in that

558

:

were staying at the hotel of thing.

559

:

And so it gave her three or four hours

a day of people to interact with.

560

:

And she knew I need to

be there at this hour.

561

:

And so I have to get up

and shower and dress and

562

:

It gave her that stimulation and sense

of purpose and structure that helps

563

:

Katherine: yeah.

564

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

but those of us ADHD.

565

:

Katherine: I think it is something that we

all struggle with at every stage, but when

566

:

you're retired, you're left to, to dangle.

567

:

And as you say, it's that that you're

somehow invisible or your opinion,

568

:

your experience is no longer required

because you're, over 65 maybe.

569

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

But you're old.

570

:

does it matter?

571

:

Katherine: they just,

572

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

nobody would say, why does it

573

:

matter if you have dementia?

574

:

But,

575

:

Katherine: I know it's so weird.

576

:

I don't want to take up too much of

your time, but before we go, you were

577

:

talking about the interplay between

our social role as women and the ADHD

578

:

brain and how those two things give

a really unique experience to those

579

:

of us in kind of the role of women.

580

:

absolutely and i think not nearly enoughm

581

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306: has

been written about, thought about this,

582

:

because there are tons of books for women.

583

:

But it's really, they're books about

how can you manage, how can you

584

:

develop systems so you can meet all

the expectations you face in life.

585

:

I think I always joke somebody didn't

do the math when all us women went to

586

:

work because I am the oldest of the baby

boomers so my generation was the really

587

:

first generation of women that went to

work and we still got married and we still

588

:

had children the world continued to expect

of us what our mothers who had stayed

589

:

Were capable of doing.

590

:

I mean, if there are three jobs, there

need to be three people doing those

591

:

jobs.

592

:

what's really interesting, I've

written and thought a lot about this,

593

:

is during World War II, many women

went to work because they were needed.

594

:

The men were at war, the women

worked in the factories, in all

595

:

kinds of roles that had always

596

:

by men.

597

:

in the U.

598

:

S., Guess what?

599

:

I hadn't known this.

600

:

The federal government provided good child

care for these women how can they possibly

601

:

go to work if we don't provide child care.

602

:

The minute the men came home from

World War II, women lost their jobs,

603

:

Federal child care disappeared,

and they're back in the house.

604

:

Okay, well, that's fine.

605

:

They work for us.

606

:

Housewives, but only 18, 20 years later,

women started going to work and there was

607

:

Katherine: no

608

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

of who's going to take care of the

609

:

Katherine: ya

610

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

you figure it out.

611

:

and so I read a study fascinating

because I'm always thinking about

612

:

how society and ADHD intersect.

613

:

And in some societies, it's much harder

to be a woman with ADHD than others.

614

:

And those are the societies that

really value order and precision.

615

:

And Japan is certainly one of those

616

:

Katherine: ya, nn ya.

617

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306: very

recently in which they were comparing

618

:

outcomes of men versus women with ADHD.

619

:

And in Japan, women with ADHD

are much more likely to be

620

:

divorced than men with ADHD.

621

:

In other words, the wives don't divorce

their ADHD husbands, but the men do.

622

:

Divorce their ADHD wives because

you're not doing your job.

623

:

You're supposed to keep

everything in order.

624

:

they're more likely to be divorced.

625

:

They're more likely to be unemployed

or underemployed once again because in

626

:

japan The roles that are commonly given

to women are the roles that require

627

:

tremendous executive functioning skills,

You know, you are the organizer of things.

628

:

You're supposed to keep me on track.

629

:

That's your job.

630

:

so much harder to be a woman.

631

:

And I think not nearly enough attention

has been paid to, not only are we dealing

632

:

with a job and parenting responsibilities

and household responsibilities, but we're

633

:

more likely to become divorced, which

means we're single parenting with ADHD.

634

:

with a job, with a household.

635

:

And on top of that, we're very likely

to be raising children with ADHD,

636

:

which is challenging if you don't have

637

:

Katherine: Exactly.

638

:

yeah

639

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

And so it just piles layer upon

640

:

layer of impossibility and so

many poor women blame themselves.

641

:

Like, what's wrong with me?

642

:

I

643

:

be able to

644

:

When we're being asked to do

645

:

Katherine: yeah you could even

add on another layer of caring for

646

:

parents who are becoming frailer or

less independent and who need our

647

:

support and this, the group of women

that I generally work with are very

648

:

thinly spread jelly in the sandwich,

649

:

?

Yeah.

650

:

Yeah.

651

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

thinly spread.

652

:

I can't quite cover that sandwich,

and the sandwich keeps getting bigger.

653

:

Katherine: A double decker, I'm

fascinated by the social role of

654

:

women but I wonder if there's almost

a reluctance to engage with it because

655

:

Again, there's a social expectation that

women will be inclusive and not demanding.

656

:

And when we, you know, when I

said I'm starting a women only

657

:

group, I did get some people

saying, well, I'm a guy with ADHD.

658

:

Why am I not welcome?

659

:

So I wonder if there's a

slight reluctance to say yes.

660

:

Our experience is different

and the expectations and

661

:

demands on us are different, so

662

:

do you think that's just women being

either invisible and not worthy of study,

663

:

which is a science thing, or is it a

conditioning thing where we're reluctant

664

:

to maybe make space for ourselves?

665

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306: Oh, I

think we're very much conditioned that our

666

:

first job is to meet the needs of those

667

:

Katherine: Yeah.

668

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

Another interesting thing I have found

669

:

recently, and I don't know if anyone's

written about this yet, is I'm seeing,

670

:

more gender diversity among women with

671

:

And I really think it's more of a gender

role rather than a sexual role, if

672

:

I say I'm gender neutral, or I don't

identify as a woman, then I'm basically

673

:

announcing you can't lay all that on me.

674

:

I don't identify

675

:

And I am finding that there's

an increasing number among women

676

:

with ADHD of a decision remain,

as the phrase goes now, child

677

:

Katherine: Yeah.

678

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

childless by choice, not by

679

:

circumstance, because They're

realizing how, God's name, can I do

680

:

Katherine: Absolutely.

681

:

And I think that opting out, it almost

feels like we shouldn't have to out

682

:

of parenting or whatever we're doing.

683

:

we choose to identify as, understand why

people are doing it, because why would

684

:

you choose to opt into a role where you

are expected to fulfill everybody else

685

:

needs, to be the support human for the

rest of the human race, when you can say

686

:

actually no, I'm stepping out of that.

687

:

And I think, In some ways it gives

me confidence that women are able to

688

:

do that now, with less consequence.

689

:

But there are lots of women who still feel

that pressure and when they have ADHD, it

690

:

just becomes almost overwhelming for them.

691

:

So that they do struggle and

then they go to their doctor who

692

:

gives them some anti depressants.

693

:

Right?

694

:

Instead of saying, you know,

your kid is neurodivergent.

695

:

Maybe we should screen you as well.

696

:

.So I wonder what can we do

to help these women briefly?

697

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

Well, you know, I think these

698

:

kinds of issues are being slowly

699

:

In many parts of the world.

700

:

And it's, so we're really

talking about the intersection of

701

:

having this thing called an ADHD

702

:

And being a human being that

703

:

as

704

:

I was listening to an interview online

last night by an Afghan woman is now

705

:

in the US and has written a book.

706

:

Her mission was to try

to provide education.

707

:

to Afghan girls.

708

:

And then we know what happened in

709

:

And she was one of the fortunate

ones that was able to escape.

710

:

And she's written a book

titled Last to Eat, Last to

711

:

And she was explaining that in

Afghan society, the females never

712

:

sit down and never eat until all

the males have been served and all

713

:

the babies have been taken care of.

714

:

And,

715

:

And I to my husband about it and saying,

actually, they're being treated like

716

:

.

That we don't want you to be educated because that would give you power

717

:

and agency in this world and you

serve us and then you meet your

718

:

own needs if and when you can.

719

:

Katherine: Yeah.

720

:

Yeah.

721

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306: so I

think, I mean, it's amazing that there are

722

:

women in Afghanistan that are brave enough

to do this, and I think it's happening

723

:

in different ways all over the world,

and that there is a political backlash

724

:

Katherine: Yes.

725

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306: that

I think there are big parts, especially in

726

:

but I think elsewhere also, the U.

727

:

S.

728

:

conservative families that are

very alarmed that women are wanting

729

:

Reject this

730

:

Katherine: Yeah.

731

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

you know, and that it needs

732

:

to be more egalitarian.

733

:

Katherine: Exactly thank

you so much for your time.

734

:

I really appreciate it.

735

:

I could literally talk to you all

day, but I'm looking forward to

736

:

sharing information about the petition

with everybody that I can find

737

:

you again, and it's been

738

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306:

you're very

739

:

Katherine: a joy to speak to you.

740

:

Thank you.

741

:

Okay.

742

:

kathleen-nadeau_1_02-28-2024_140306: I

743

:

Katherine: Thank you.

744

:

Well, that was quite a trip.

745

:

Wasn't it?

746

:

That was really amazing.

747

:

Dr.

748

:

Cassie Nadeau.

749

:

Nadella is one of those people who I

have read about for such a long time.

750

:

And then to finally talk

to her was such a gift.

751

:

And I went to, again, appreciate

all the work that she has

752

:

done and continues to do.

753

:

To have the energy, the passion, the

mission that keeps her pushing forward.

754

:

75, which I find hard to believe.

755

:

Is really fantastic and

such an inspiration.

756

:

I hope you enjoyed it.

757

:

It's my first interview as a podcaster.

758

:

And I did try very hard not to.

759

:

Completely gosh.

760

:

Certain points.

761

:

I would love you to sign

and support the petition.

762

:

That Dr.

763

:

Nadeau mentions.

764

:

to APSARD I've got a

link in the show notes.

765

:

It's hosted on change.org.

766

:

And if you type in.

767

:

change.org.

768

:

ADHD women.

769

:

APSARD it will come up, but

there's a link in the show notes.

770

:

If you would prefer to click on that.

771

:

Next week we are moving

back into territory.

772

:

That's perhaps more

familiar is just me again.

773

:

As long as my voice holds out.

774

:

Um, we are going to be looking at.

775

:

What.

776

:

Actually causes procrastination.

777

:

And what can we do about it?

778

:

This is a universal affliction.

779

:

All humans experience procrastination.

780

:

But I would say always see,

everybody goes to the bathroom, but

781

:

if you're going to the bathroom 50

times a day, you have a problem.

782

:

And that is very much the case

with ADHD and procrastination.

783

:

And if you are somebody who is running

a business, you are self-employed.

784

:

And you are procrastinating.

785

:

The buck stops with you.

786

:

It is rather urgent that we find a way to

get past this and understand it better.

787

:

So that's what we're looking at next week.

788

:

Proper dive into.

789

:

The different flavors of procrastination

and how you can overcome them.

790

:

Please keep emailing and I read

every single email that comes in

791

:

and I'm so grateful to you all for

sharing and supporting the show.

792

:

I will see you next week.

793

:

When we look at procrastination.

794

:

And from ADHD, powerful possibilities.

795

:

I wish you a very good week.

796

:

And look after yourself until then.

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