One of the most well-known messianic prophecies, Isaiah 9:6 calls the Messiah “the Prince of Peace.” This title, when applied to Jesus, has been a source of hope and encouragement for many. Our world yearns for peace, especially during the holiday season, but what exactly is peace and how does Jesus achieve it? In this episode, Olivier Melnick, the Chosen People Ministries southwest regional director, discusses what Isaiah 9:6 tells us about Yeshua.

(upbeat music)

- [Nicole] Welcome to Our Hope,

a production of Chosen People Ministries.

On this podcast, you will hear inspiring testimonies,

learn about Messianic apologetics

and discover God's plan for Israel and you.

Whoever you're listening,

we hope you lean in,

listen closely and be blessed.

(upbeat music)

(orchestral music)

- During this time of year,

the word peace seems to be everywhere.

Signs in shop windows

or twinkly lights on someone's house may display the word.

You may hear about peace on earth and songs on the radio,

or you may receive a card from a family member,

wishing you joy and peace in the new year.

There is something about the holiday season

that causes many of us to feel a little happier

and act a little kinder to the people around us.

We begin to wonder if perhaps peace truly is possible.

However, the hope of the holiday season,

will soon be swallowed up

by the trials of everyday life after January 1st.

We go back to school and work

and we struggle to be peacemakers both at home

and out in the world.

But what if there is more to peace

than just our human efforts?

What if God Himself brought peace to earth?

In this week's episode,

we're going to explore the hope filled prophecy

of Isaiah chapter nine,

verses six and seven,

which speak about a special child who is called,

among many titles, the Prince of Peace.

Joining us for this episode,

is our Southwest regional director, Olivier Melnick.

I now introduce the host of Our Hope podcast, Abe Vazquez.

(soft music)

- [Abe] Shalom everyone.

Welcome to Our Hope,

this is Abe Vasquez.

I am so glad to be with you once again.

We had a wonderful week the past week,

we had an event,

a virtual event called Advent through Jewish Eyes

and it was absolutely fantastic.

And you can go to our YouTube channel,

find this Chosen People Ministries on YouTube,

and you can watch it again.

It was amazing, we had Dr. Brown,

we had Dr. Ridellnick,

and of course Mitch Glaser,

president of Chosen People Ministries.

So check it out.

We would love for you to watch it.

It was really, really beautiful.

But today, we have a really fun guest.

He's one of my favorite people, Olivier Melnick.

He is from France,

moved to many places in the United States,

but he was previously in Seattle.

And now he is...

I can't call him a Texan

'cause he hasn't been there long enough.

Most people from Texas would have a problem with that,

but he lives in Texas.

(Abe and the Nicole laughing)

We can say that much.

Olivier, welcome to Our Hope once again.

- Well, it's good to be with you.

Thank you for inviting me again.

And by the way, you know,

the lady when she did my driver's license,

she said, "You are now officially a Texan."

And I said, "I'm sorry, I just can't say that quite yet."

So, (Abe and the Nicole laughing)

she called me a Texan, but too soon.

- [Abe] You gotta earn it. (laughing)

- [Olivier] Yes.

- [Abe] Well, - [Olivier] You know,

- [Olivier] I tell you what,

- [Abe] Yeah.

- [Olivier] I did earn some of it

for Hanukkah, we had a party and I barbecued,

I smoked a 17 pound brisket.

- [Abe] Whoa. - [Nicole] Oh, wow.

- [Olivier] So, that earned me some stars.

- [Abe] Okay.

- [Olivier] Brownie points for the state of Texas,

because I got to up my game on the barbecue in this state.

- [Abe] Yeah.

- [Abe] I mean, - [Nicole] Oh, yeah.

- [Abe] of course here in Texas, you have to.

Well, that is awesome.

Congratulations on the move and all,

we're just excited about all that God is doing in your life

and in your wife's life.

And so, we'll continue to pray for you

as you minister out there in Texas.

I have a question for you.

What, this is a little bit different,

what is your favorite movie?

- [Nicole] Ooh.

- [Olivier] Okay. That comes, okay.

So I have, well, I don't have to think too hard.

I've had for the last 20 years,

my top three favorite movies.

- [Abe] Okay.

- [Olivier] And I really cannot separate them

because they're very different.

So I don't really have a favorite,

and one of them might surprise our listeners

because it might not be the most Christian movie.

(all laughing)

So the three movies that are really have affected me

and really are my favorite is Schindler's list,

the Godfather part one

(Abe laughing) - [Nicole] Oh, yeah.

and Casablanca.

- [Abe] Wow.

- [Nicole] Oh, I love Casablanca.

- [Abe] Classic.

- [Olivier] With Humphrey Bogart, Yes.

Those three classics, they're very different,

but they're my three all-time favorite movies.

- [Abe] Awesome. That is great.

Very classics and I won't say it shows your age or anything,

but, you know, it's...

- [Olivier] Well, (Abe laughing)

Lemme put it this way.

I did not see Casablanca when it came out.

- [Abe] Okay, good.

- [Nicole] Yes.

(Abe and Nicole laughing)

- [Abe] Well, let's jump in.

Again, this season we've been talking about all things,

messianic prophecies, and we've had some wonderful guests.

We've talked about some beautiful prophecies.

And today we're gonna talk about one

that was really perfect for the season we're in, you know,

we're in advent, we're approaching Christmas,

for those who celebrate Christmas

and, you know, we're gonna focus on this passage,

Isaiah nine, six through seven.

And of course, you know,

this season we've been practicing listening

to these scriptures, so Nicole,

would you please bless again with reading this passage?

- [Nicole] So this is Isaiah chapter nine,

verses six and seven.

For a child will be born to us,

a son will be given to us

and the government will rest on his shoulders.

And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor,

Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

There will be no end to the increase of his government

or of peace on the throne of David

and over his kingdom to establish it

and to uphold it with justice and righteousness

from then on and forevermore.

The zeal of the Lord of hosts will accomplish this.

- [Abe] Amen. So there are a lot of titles in this passage.

Olivier, can you walk us through what each one means?

- [Olivier] Yeah, it's interesting,

I call this the Christmas messianic prophecy

and I've already gotten one card with that.

In every year, everybody gets a card with that scripture.

- [Nicole] Oh, yeah.

- [Olivier] And it is actually quite controversial,

especially not so much for evangelicals,

but for Jewish people,

because those titles seem to be indicating that the son,

the child that would be born,

the son that would be given,

it seems to indicate that it's describing God.

- [Nicole] Yeah.

- [Olivier] And of course for Jewish people,

how can you speak of a human

and a God in the same sentence?

- [Abe] Right.

- [Olivier] And in Jewish people automatically will say,

men cannot become God.

I had that happen too many times in conversation,

which of course I agree.

In this case, it's really,

as we're seeing it a little bit later,

it's where God becoming man.

But those titles, especially the first one,

the first one is Wonderful Counselor in the Hebrew pillar.

This is the most troubling one for Jewish people

because the word Pele, wonderful, is I think it's used,

there's like seven or nine other examples

of that word in the Old Testament.

Every time it only describes the wonderful character of God.

It's never ever used to describe a human being.

And years ago, when I live in Seattle,

I went to a synagogue to learn conversational Hebrew,

just to take some classes with a couple of friends of mine.

So, we got there and we started the class and we, you know,

the teacher was one of the rabbis,

he was very nice.

The first day I got there,

I said, "Listen, by the way, I'm Jewish.

"I believe that you're sure Jesus is the Messiah.

"Not gonna bother you with that unless you're interested,

"but I want you to know where I'm coming from."

And so he said, "Whatever, that's fine, let's do Hebrew."

So we did this for a few weeks,

and then one day I say,

"Can you and your Bible read for me as Isaiah 9:6 and seven

"and give me your translation?"

So he said, "Sure."

So he pulled his the Bible,

he read Isaiah 9:6,

and I said, "Please give me your understanding of it

"because you speak Hebrew, I don't."

And you started reading it,

and when he got to Wonderful Counselor in the Hebrew,

he stopped, in his Bible, he stopped

and he said, "That's not possible."

I said, "What do you mean?"

He said, "That's not possible."

I said, "I don't know what you're talking about."

He goes, he looks at me and he goes, "You're good."

(Nicole and Abe laughing)

What do you mean?

He said, "I don't like this.

"This is not possible."

And then he went on to explain,

"You cannot use this word of a human being."

I said, "It's your Bible. it's not mine."

And from that day on,

we only did Hebrew.

and we never talked about God again.

He was not really happy with me,

but I'm certain that I tried to do that respectfully,

of course, but I tried to plant seeds of doubt,

in people's mind when it comes to

what is their established understanding of scripture,

and they just go with it.

They don't think it further,

or they glaze over and they just don't pay attention,

and on that one,

when Jewish people are aware

of the meaning of Pele in the Pele Yo'etz, the first title,

they're extremely uncomfortable

and they have no answer for it.

The guy who was teaching in Hebrew,

- [Abe] Wow. - [Nicole] Wow,

- [Olivier] In his own Bible, he said, "It's not possible."

I donno know if he ignored it before

or never looked at it, I donno know.

But that was really telling.

- [Abe] Wow.

- [Olivier] So, that's the first title,

the Pele Yo'eitz, Wonderful Counselor.

Basically, all of those titles they seem to describe God,

the second one, El Gibbor

or Mighty God, obviously, you know,

never use of a human being

and Eternal Father, Avi'ad,

or it's more like Father of Eternity.

I mean, a man cannot be the father of eternity.

Those are...

- [Abe] Right.

- [Olivier] All titles that's tend to describe God.

The only one that could be used for either God

or man interchangeably in other passages

of the old Testament is Prince of Peace.

Which of course we know from other places in the Bible,

that the Prince of Peace is a title for the Messiah.

- [Nicole] Yes.

- [Olivier] Now, I'd like to say one more thing

about those titles if I may.

- [Abe] Yeah.

- [Olivier] They are so uncomfortable

for mainstream Jewish people

that in some Jewish translations,

they don't even translate them.

- [Nicole] Oh wow.

- [Olivier] It's just amazing.

I hold in my hand here, the Jerusalem Bible,

which is a one version of the Bible,

which has English and Hebrew on either side of the text

and it's transcended by scholars.

They know of Hebrew, I mean they're Hebrew scholars

and when it comes to Isaiah 9:6,

you're not gonna believe this.

I'm reading the English right here,

next to the Hebrew letters.

This is the English.

But to us, a child is born,

to us a son is given

and the government is upon his shoulder,

and his name is called Pele Yo'etz,

El Gibbor, Avi'ad Shalom.

All of a sudden we have a transliteration

of the Hebrew on the next page,

but not a translation because all of a sudden,

they could not come up for the next day.

They forgot what to say in English.

What it's telling you here,

is that it is so uncomfortable

that they'd rather are not translate it

because they don't want to connect the human aspect

and the divine aspect of this person.

- [Nicole] Yeah.

- [Olivier] So in a very common Bible translation

for Jewish people, it is not even translated.

And in the JPS, Jewish Publication Society,

it has deep embellished the translation,

a son has been given to us,

authority has settled on his shoulders,

he has been named, Mighty God is planning grace,

the Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler.

That's not even in a text.

- [Nicole] Yeah.

- [Olivier] Two very common Jewish translations

and we don't have the exact translation of the Hebrew

because it's that uncomfortable

because it describes both God and man in the same person.

(soft music)

- [Nicole] We'll be right back.

(upbeat music)

There are many passages in the Bible

that speak about the Messiah.

But how can we understand them?

Isaiah 53 explained written by Chosen People Ministries,

president Dr. Mitch Glaser, is a great resource

for those who are searching for truth

and looking to have a relationship with God.

This book contains testimonies,

a list of messianic prophecies

and an in-depth look at

how we can receive atonement for our sins.

Download the ebook for free at isaiah53.com today.

(upbeat music)

- [Abe] Shalom, we're so glad you're joining us,

on this episode of Our Hope.

We created this podcast

as a resource for followers of Yeshua,

where they can learn more about Israel, the Bible,

and the Jewish community.

Together, we discuss messianic apologetics,

dive into Scripture and hear stories

from Jewish believers in Jesus.

If you've enjoyed our podcast series,

please consider supporting us, at chosenpeople.com/donate.

Again, that's chosenpeople.com/donate.

You could also help us

by sharing this podcast on social media,

talking about it with your friends and family,

or by writing a review on Apple Podcasts.

We are so grateful for you.

And we hope this episode of Our Hope is both enlightening

and encouraging.

- [Nicole] Yeah, I know that it can be difficult

for Jewish people especially to wrap their mind around

how this person could be both God and man.

One thing that we noticed about this passage,

it's hard to tell exactly

where it takes place in the biblical timeline.

Would you say this would be considered an end times passage,

particularly from a Jewish perspective?

- [Olivier] Well, it has a messianic implication.

If you believe it's speaking of the Messiah,

obviously is speaking of the coming of the Messiah,

when he will be born and come on earth.

From a Jewish perspective,

the Messiah hasn't arrived yet.

From a Christian perspective

or messianic Jewish perspective,

it would, you know, He would come back a second time.

This seems to be speaking of the birth of a child,

the birth of a human being.

But the second part of the verse,

speaks of Him ruling on a throne of David.

So that's definitely speaking of the messianic age,

which we are not in yet.

So, being either for Jewish people, mainstream Judaism,

or for us believers, the messianic kingdom,

which we also call the millennial kingdom,

has not started, it has not arrived.

Some people believe it's some semi started

within evangelicals, but I would say that

as long as you're sure it's the right hand

of the Father in heaven,

I take a literal approach that the kingdom cannot start

until you're sure rains from the throne of David,

in Yerushalaim, in Jerusalem.

So, I think it has an implication for the coming kingdom,

which will be inaugurated after the seven year tribulation,

which has not started yet.

- [Abe] Yeah. So if we're not in the messianic kingdom yet,

and we know that because there's no peace on earth, right?

- [Nicole] Yeah.

- [Abe] But Jewish people also make the argument,

Jesus could not be the Messiah

because there is no peace on earth.

So, what would you say to a Jewish person

who in this Christmas time,

as we're in this passage,

as they see these passages and things like that,

and they bring up that argument with us,

what do we say? - [Olivier] Well,

There is a common belief within Judaism

that there will be two Messiah.

Mashiach ben Yosef and Mashiach ben David.

Son of Joseph and son of David.

And the Joseph it's referring to is not the Joseph,

the husband of Mary or the Joseph of Egypt,

I mean, you know, the son of the patriarchs.

And Jewish people will say, first Messiah,

Mashiach ben Joseph, the son of Joseph,

will suffer for His people,

will be humiliated, will die for His people.

And the second Messiah, Mashiach ben David,

will come and conquer and reign in the world

and be the Messiah that everybody is waiting

that will bring peace.

So I said to that,

you have two different offices held

by two different Messiah, but really,

the only difference between that view and the view

that we hold here, is that we see that the same person,

Yeshua of Nazareth, Jesus,

holds the office of Mashiach ben Yosef.

Yeah, the first coming, then He dies for the world,

not just for Israel, but for the whole world.

And then He will hold a second office for eternity

as the ruling Messiah on the throne of David.

So to a Jewish person, I say,

I agree with your two aspects of the Messiah,

but I don't see two different Messiah,

I see two offices of the same Messiah, the same person,

which can be, you know, documented through validated,

I should say, through the Bible.

- [Abe] Yeah, and let's talk about a little bit about that.

So what are some of the clues that point to Jesus,

being the fulfillment of this prophesy?

- [Olivier] Well, we have in the two gospels in Matthew

and Luke, we have two genealogies

and in the genealogies points

to basically this child being born,

being the son of Miriam, Mary,

and her husband, Yeshua's adopted father.

So the connection is basically Isaiah

and now we're looking at 700 years passed

between the prediction of Isaiah and the gospel.

So this is quite a long time in between the two.

And I would say probably,

it would be good to link Isaiah 7:14,

Emmanuel, God with us,

the child would be born of a virgin.

And so Isaiah 7:14, and Isaiah 9:6 and seven together,

And then you fast forward to the gospel

of Luke and Matthew, in the first few chapters

of each of the gospels and you get this virgin birth

of a child that is the child of Mary and the Holy Spirit.

So there is this human and a divine aspect.

- [Nicole] So Olivier, when we look at this prophecy

as Gentile believers, I mean,

we know that it's about Jesus just from reading it,

and it's kind of been drilled into our heads over the years,

but for a Jewish seeker, could be a little bit harder

to connect the dots.

So, what do the Hebrew scriptures and the new Testament,

tell us about the future fulfillment of this prophecy?

We know that some of it was fulfilled when Jesus first came,

but what about the future?

And would you say this prophecy is connected

to any other prophecies in the Tanakh?

- [Olivier] Well, as I just mentioned,

I think it would be good when you look at this prophecy

to also study Isaiah 7:14, the Virgin birth,

because this is speaking of a son being given,

and so you put the two together.

But to answer your question, I think that

when you start looking at the messianic prophecies,

the best way to look at them is

to look at them in the order of the Jewish Bible,

from Genesis forward to the book of Chronicles,

and because it paints a picture going from a blank canvas,

the outline of a person in Genesis 3:15,

to son of Abraham, to the tribe of Judah,

Genesis 49:10, and on.

So, by the time you're done with the whole Tanakh,

the old Jewish Bible,

you get a picture that is undeniably,

the picture of a crisp 4k HD color of Yeshua the Messiah.

So I think it's good

to stick all messianic prophecies together.

When you look at nine, six and seven,

it speaks of the divine aspect of a human being,

which is extremely uncomfortable for Jewish people,

because that's the one thing that

when we talk to Jewish people,

that is the stumbling block,

a man cannot become God.

I've been told this many times.

And I would agree whole heartedly

with the rest of the Jewish people who say that to me,

I don't believe a man can become God,

but in the case of the Yeshua of Nazareth, you know,

we believe that is part of the triune nature of God.

He's the second person of the Trinity.

And He became a man and was born according to that prophecy

and Luke two, and in Matthew one,

He was born to come down to relate to us

and to in His humanity, die for our sins.

But as the divine, as God himself, God cannot die.

So we need Isaiah nine, six and seven,

because Yeshua had to be both men and God,

so that as God, He could do what He was doing,

but as a man, He could die for our sins.

And so it's a very important prophecy,

and we need both aspects.

And by the way,

there are other passages in the Old Testament

that actually refer to the triune nature of God.

You see the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in Isaiah,

in other places, which is amazing.

So it's not an invention that evangelicals came up with

to convince the world that the Bible spoke of the Trinity,

which was a human invention.

It is in the Jewish Bible.

- [Abe] Olivier, what should we keep in mind

as we share about the Prince of Peace,

as we talk about the titles we've discussed in this episode

with our Jewish friends and family members in this season.

- [Olivier] Well, you know, that's a good question.

I think, you know, referring to the story I told you

at the beginning of the podcast,

this Jewish man who was very very knowledgeable in Hebrew,

both biblical Hebrew and conversational Hebrew,

was extremely uncomfortable

when he read in his own Bible in Hebrew,

the titles that are described in that verse six.

So, in talking to a Jewish person,

I would say, you're expecting a Messiah to bring peace,

but He had to bring peace in the heart of man,

before He could bring peace in the world.

So, - [Nicole] Right

- [Olivier] In His first coming,

that's what He did.

He brought peace in the heart of man.

He made it available at Calvary.

He made it available for men to be reconciled with God.

And He was gonna return at His second coming,

that He will bring peace in the world.

So, to a Jewish person who says

that Yeshua cannot be the Messiah

because He didn't bring peace,

I would say, I disagree with you.

Gibbor is bringing two kinds of peace.

The peace in the heart of man available through salvation,

through his atonement on our behalf

and in peace in the world,

as He comes back as the Messiah

to reign over David's throne.

- [Abe] I love that.

I never actually even thought about that.

We've talked about that question

before in previous podcasts, but to say,

as a response to a Jewish person, well,

I disagree because He's brought peace to my heart,

He's very powerful and you almost can't deny that.

- [Nicole] Yeah, and since we're supposed

to have His peace in our hearts,

how can we best represent the Prince of Peace

as we wait for His return?

- [Olivier] Well, it is a thin line that we walk every day.

You know, representing the Prince of Peace,

one of my favorite quotes

that I use a lot is preach the gospel every day,

if necessary, use the words. So,

- [Nicole] Yeah.

- [Olivier] I try in my behavior with my neighbors,

my friends, people I interact with.

I try to behave in a way

that they're gonna look at me

and they're gonna go, "What is it with this guy?"

(laughs)

You know, and by the way,

I fail regularly, okay?

So don't you think that I've got all the answers,

(laughs)

but what is it with this guy is,

you know, He's keeping us calm.

and even though He's going through this difficult time

and people think like, "Oh, you're happy."

And there's a difference between happiness and joy.

Sometimes I'm not happy,

but have the joy of the Lord.

That's different. And I have the peace of the Lord.

The peace of the Prince of Peace.

And so I try to, in my interaction with people,

I try the best possible to be what we all should be,

which is ambassadors of Christ.

We are supposed to be ambassadors, representative

of the Messiah. It's a tough job.

I mean, we do have His spirit living in us.

It should not be difficult,

but we still wrestle with the fallen nature

that still lives in us.

So it's every day, it's a give and take

and we have better days.

- [Abe] Olivier, one last question for you

and try to transport us a little bit,

bring us to the moment

where you were reading these passages, any passage,

and you clearly saw Yeshua in that scripture.

It could be the Isaiah chapter you read.

I just wanna know,

what was it like for you as a Jewish person

to clearly Yeshua in the Hebrew scriptures?

- [Olivier] For me, it was a little different.

I was given messianic prophecies to look at,

by a young girl, young California girl

who became my wife 38 years ago,

(Abe laughing)

because you know, she wouldn't marry me,

unless I believe like she did.

And so she read me the Scriptures

and I was not really impressed, you know,

the same messianic prophecies,

so that going through the Messiah.

And then she gave me a little book

that I'm gonna age myself again,

The Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey.

Some of our listeners will know exactly

what book it is.

Every time I mentioned that in a group,

there's always people raising their hands, saying me too.

It was a very powerful book in the 70s.

And so she gave it to me.

It was in the mid eighties.

And that man was taking all the prophecies

of the old Testament and saying,

"This is pointing to Yeshua, this one."

Kind of like what I explained to you earlier.

And he said, "They all have been fulfilled literally."

And then yet he had part of the book when he said,

"This is what is yet to come."

And I'm looking at all those prophecies and I'm reading them

and I'm like, "You know I'm Jewish."

And, you know, put it back like,

you know, 30, 40 years ago,

Jewish family, but I was not exposed

to anything religious or spiritual.

So as my wife likes to say it,

I was a virgin to any delamination, any interpretation.

She just showed me the word

and which was in a sense, easier for me,

because I did not have any preconceived idea,

except that I still believe Jesus was not for the Jews

because we all do as Jewish people.

But I look at those prophecies and it seemed to indicate

that it was some person that would come as a Savior,

as a Redeemer, as a Messiah.

And then that little book that I read,

showed the progression of the full shield

and yet to be fulfilled.

And I thought, wow, if this was fulfilled literally,

which is an amazing, the probability is an amazing number

that you do many zeros.

- [Nicole] Yeah.

- [Olivier] I look at the, to be fulfilled

and this 109th prophecies

that are being fulfilled by Yeshua.

- [Nicole] Wow.

- [Olivier] And it was over 200,

I think it's 224 yet to be fulfilled.

If they have all been fulfilled a 100% literally,

why should the rest of them not be fulfilled literally?

And that got me really thinking, this is very precise,

this is all about the same person.

And I thought this, you know, this makes sense.

So, it was not, to me,

it was not Isaiah 53 or Isaiah 9:6, or Isaiah 7:14.

It was the grand narrative,

of all the messianic prophecies put together

and what happened, what's gonna happen,

there's no reason to believe it's allegorical,

it's all literal.

And that really impressed me.

(soft music)

- [Abe] One day, there'll be no more pain.

There'll be no more loss.

There'll be no more waiting.

Peace is on its way.

Our happiest day on earth is nothing compared

to the peace that we're gonna experience

when Yeshua overturns and reigns forever.

So, do not give up hope as you wait.

And remember that we are called to be peacemakers.

We are to share this message of peace in our words

and actions all year long.

As we wrap up this episode,

I would just ask if you would consider giving a gift

to Chosen People Ministries

so that we can continue to extend peace

to the Jewish people,

all around the world.

We are passionate and we love,

and we care about the Jewish people,

and we feel they deserve to know

that Yeshua is their Messiah.

You can do that today by visiting ourhopepodcast.com/support

Again, that's ourhopepodcast.com/support.

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Our Hope,

featuring Chosen People Ministry staff member,

Olivia Melnick.

This episode was produced and written by Nicole Vacca

and produced and edited by Grace Swee.

This episode was also made possible thanks

to Dr. Mitch Glaser and Kieran Bautista.

I'm Abe Vazquez. Until next time.

(soft music)

- [Nicole] Thanks for listening to Our Hope.

If you like our show and want to know more,

check out ourhopepodcast.com or chosenpeople.com.

You can also support our podcast

by giving today at ourhopepodcast.com/support.

See you next time.