Indigenous agriculture in Canada is often discussed through the lens of food security and community food systems. But what happens when the conversation shifts toward scale, capital, and commercial participation in the broader agri-food economy?

In this episode of Future Herd, Jesse Hirsh speaks with Camden Lawrence of First Nations Agriculture & Finance Ontario. Camden works at the intersection of agricultural development, financing, and community capacity building, helping First Nations producers and communities explore agriculture not only as a pathway to food sovereignty, but also as a vehicle for economic growth and long-term prosperity.

Their conversation explores the structural realities of modern agriculture: the capital required to enter the sector, the importance of scale in supplying large buyers, and the institutional supports needed for communities to build viable agricultural enterprises. Camden also reflects on the momentum emerging across First Nations communities, where interest in agriculture is growing alongside efforts to develop the financing tools, partnerships, and leadership needed to support it.

This episode offers a thoughtful look at Indigenous agriculture as an evolving part of Canada’s agri-food landscape — and raises important questions about how the sector might grow in the years ahead.

Topics Discussed

1. The role of First Nations Agriculture & Finance Ontario
2. Indigenous agriculture and economic development
3. Financing challenges in agriculture
4. The economics of scale in modern food production
5. Community capacity and agricultural leadership
6. Food sovereignty and commercial agriculture
7. Opportunities for Indigenous participation in the broader agri-food sector

About the Guest

Camden Lawrence works with First Nations Agriculture & Finance Ontario, an Indigenous-led organization supporting agricultural and agribusiness development across First Nations communities in Ontario. The organization provides financing support, advisory services, and programs aimed at helping Indigenous producers and communities develop sustainable agricultural enterprises.

About Future Herd

Future Herd is a podcast exploring leadership across Canada’s agri-food sector as we think toward 2050. Through conversations with farmers, policymakers, researchers, and industry leaders, the show examines the ideas, institutions, and innovations shaping the future of food and agriculture.

Links

First Nations Agriculture & Finance Ontario

https://www.firstnationsag.ca

Future Herd

https://thefutureherd.ca

Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsh.

Welcome to The Future Herd.

Today's conversation begins with a simple but provocative shift in perspective.

Across Canada.

We often talk about indigenous agriculture in terms of food security,

community gardens, or small scale production, but what happens when

the conversation moves from feeding communities to feeding the country?

In this episode of Future Herd, I'm joined by Camden Lawrence from First

Nations Agriculture and Finance Ontario.

Camden is working at the intersection of agriculture, capital, and community

development, helping First Nations farmers and communities think

not just about participating in agriculture, but about becoming serious

commercial players in the sector.

Our conversation explores the realities behind that ambition, the economies

of scale in modern agriculture, the barriers and opportunities around

access to capital, and the challenge of building agricultural enterprises

large enough to supply the buyers that dominate today's food system.

Camden also reflects on how First Nations communities are beginning to think

differently about agriculture, not only as a path to food sovereignty, but as

an opportunity for economic leadership.

It's a conversation about risk, scale, and imagination, and about what the

future of agriculture might look like when new players start thinking bigger

about their role in the food system.

Camden, welcome to the Future Herd.

It's a real privilege to have you here.

I, I expect I'm gonna learn a lot today, but the first question I

love to throw at our guests is, what does the future mean to you?

I.

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Yeah, I, right off the bat, um,

you know, for us, um, you know, our priority is of course agriculture.

Uh, and we're starting right now, uh, a big push.

What we're trying to do is, um.

You know, we hear a lot about food, food, you know, the cost of food, uh, food

sustainability, um, those kind of things.

Uh, so what we're trying to do is get First Nation communities and individuals

more, we're more so doing a push on communities, um, for them to be players,

uh, more on the commercial level.

Uh, and the kind of the internal thought we had was, you know.

Instead of us trying to just feed ourselves, you know, how, why,

why aren't first Nations also try feeding the whole province, right?

Why aren't we looking commercial scale?

Um, and you know,

as you, you probably know, you know, the, the problem with agriculture is

it's a, it's a game of scale and, um.

You, unless you're the small guy loving it and doing it all yourself.

You got, you gotta, then you're either that guy or you're the guy

that's, you know, the big, big guy.

Right?

So, um, we're looking at, uh, how can communities become bigger players in

the, in the, in the commercial game.

Um, and, and that's also from, um, a buyer's perspective too, right?

We talked to the Sobeys and the metros and, you know,

they don't, they don't want.

A hundred chickens, they want 5 million chickens.

Right?

So, um, the, it's how do we get over that?

That, and I don't know if it's a,

I mean, it's risky, right?

It's risky, but, um, we're trying to combat that, uh, the fear of being large

and, and kind of trying to show our First Nation clients the upside of that, right?

That there is potential.

And then for the fortunate thing is in, when in then we talk, we talk

food is, uh, everyone's got to eat.

Um, you know, and we're not, we're not gonna stop eating, um, anytime soon.

I think that's one of the key reasons I got

into the agricultural sector.

'cause it really does feel like it's kind of recession proof.

People always gotta be eaten, as you say.

I, I do want to talk today also about scale, which you kind of evoked, and the

larger issue of access to capital, which is something that farmers right across the

country, uh, really talk about and need.

But how does access to capital play out within First Nations,

uh, and indigenous farmers?

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Yes.

Um, definitely capital and Capital's, capital's a problem for.

I mean everyone, right?

Uh, and especially now in today's economy, money's getting even tighter.

Um, you know, our organisation has been going since 84 and 1984,

and we've been growing farms and businesses, um, for all those years.

Um, and we're even as an organisation now.

'cause, you know, when I started, you know, a great loan was

a, you know, $10,000 tractor.

Kind of thing.

And you know, that's great, right?

You got got get a tractor there.

Well now it's like, you know, it's like a hundred, $150,000 tractor, right?

And it's almost the same thing we bought for 10, 10 years ago, right?

Um, so, so the crunch on capital, um, and, you know, where we would get,

you know, a farm startup a couple years ago was 200 grand where it's,

you know, farm startup now is, is almost capitally impossible, right?

You're looking at 2 million.

Kind of to get going.

Um, so we're, for us on the capital side, we're pushing, you know,

governments and, and agencies much bigger than us at, you know, um, making

capital easier, providing capital.

But also, you know, if agriculture is a priority in, in food and that

kind of thing, it's, well, you can't, you can't get $3 million at

eight, you know, 8% and, and make it.

Right.

It's, it's gotta be at two, three.

Um, you know, we, we, we all need to, um, sustain ourselves and keep everything

going, but, um, there's a point where you just can't make a payment on that

amount of money, um, and provide food.

Um, where we're a little different back to kind of the financing is,

you know, we're kind of the only.

Uh, if it's a community or an on reserve venture, um, for many, many years

we were the only player in the game.

We were the only one that would be there to provide those loans.

Um, with the change in Canada and Ontario, you know, FCC now will come to the table.

Uh, the big banks, maybe they're, they're still grasping how it works.

Um, and it's, and it's kind of funny, right?

'cause we have these conversations with the big banks and those

kind of things and, and.

They, 'cause we're, we're asking for capital too, uh, to grow and,

and help these farms and businesses.

And, uh, they're like, oh, well, well, like how, how do you do lending?

And like, how do you lend to these people?

And it's like, well, the same way you do, they're people.

They, you know, just because they live on a territory doesn't make

them any different, you know?

Um, and it's kind of.

Where we found success is it's, it's almost in building

bonds and building trust.

Right.

With the, with the, you know, if they, they feel the trust that we given them

and we, we don't, we don't need as much security 'cause we're here to help them.

And they understand that.

And, and, uh, it usually comes back around, right?

Where we've had clients, we've had clients go under and, and go bankrupt.

And, and we didn't even know because they kept paying us.

And, and walk away from everything else, right?

Because it was, we were there to help them and, and support them.

What's interesting here is I think you're evoking a different model of

trust and a different model of community.

Certainly one that I think the banks, uh, don't even consider and, and,

and perhaps can't even understand.

And given the amazing work that you guys have been doing in

the sector, in your community.

Do you get that kind of respect when you know the FCC and the other banks kind of

work with you guys, or at least work in the same space as you, you know, can they

not only acknowledge the value that that you bring, but also the trust that, that

you've built these relationships with communities that they want access to?

Does it allow you to kind of be part of that, uh, economic

and social infrastructure?

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Well, and it, and it's like, uh,

it's, it's challenging, right?

Like we had a, um.

You know, COVID has changed everything.

One, but, you know, we had a, a mandate before COVID that, you know, before we did

any alone, we had to meet with everybody.

You know, we had to sit down, have a meeting, whether it was, you

know, at the business, at the farm, you know, this is me, I'm here.

You know, face to face, face-to-face.

Um, COVID unfortunately has kind of put a, a different mood on that.

But we still, we still nowadays, um, after COVID still have gotten back into.

Trying to meet with everyone and, and put a face to.

And I think in today's, today's world, you know, you can, you can buy a, buy

a house or, you know, get anything you want and never talk to anybody.

Right?

Fill out your application, get all your money, and, and you don't know

if you're talking to a human or a computer or, or those kind of things.

So I think there's still, there's still a lot of merit and

value in connecting, uh, and.

Knowing that, um, who you're working with, if you pick up the phone and

call that, you know, the person you're talking to kind of thing.

Um, and as you know, in, in terms of the, the large or big banks, governments,

uh, those kind of things, I, you know, I, I think they still want, want those

relationships, wanna build those values.

But it's harder right?

When you get to thousands and.

Or more employees.

It's, it's more and more challenging.

We're, we're still, you know, we're still a team of seven people.

Um, you know, we're not huge.

Um, so we, we have that ability to be more, more connected, more involved.

It is challenging, right?

And also in us, like we, we service the whole province.

So, you know, for, for one of us to get up to the Sioux or Thunder Bay, you know,

it, it's not, it's not easy, but, um.

And I, um, we, we do go up there every once in a while

and visit our, our odd clients.

Um, but uh, in building those relationships, it's definitely,

definitely helped us out, um, in terms of, you know, building that

trust you were talking about.

Right.

Um, and in the end it's, it's, we have different motto.

Motto, sorry.

So it's different models than, you know, we're not-for-profit where, um.

The banks are for profit, right?

So we're, we're more in the mindset of, you know, we're not here to make

the money, we're here to help you, um, or help the client, let's say.

Um, and, and our goal is helping, helping the client not, you know,

how much money can we make off of, um, starting this farm, right?

So this is,

You know, I might reckon that one of the benefits of a smaller

organisation is you're not isolated the way people in large enterprises or banks

are kind of compartmentalised and only see a little piece, whereas you really get a

sense, I, I'm assuming, of the, uh, on.

Ontario indigenous agricultural sector of what?

Different First Nations, uh, different scale of operations.

Uh, can you share that?

Can you give us a sense of kind of what's going on there and

what the landscape looks like?

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Well, and that's kind of what

we're, we're working on right now.

Right?

It's, um.

The unfortunate thing is when you look at First Nation communities, and I don't have

a vast knowledge of, you know, outside of Ontario pretty well 'cause I've been so,

so versed in learning them all in Ontario.

But if you look at the, at, at Ontario for example, a lot of our

First Nation communities are in, have been moved to, are now are in the

worst spots for agriculture, right?

So it's, you know, um, so now it's like, well.

Luckily with technology and those kind of thing.

Uh, well, the advancements in technology, we can now, um, greenhouses, um, you

know, ccan type, uh, growing facilities.

There's potential to create operations kind of anywhere.

Um, but it's still

limited to what a community can do, right?

So you're not gonna.

You know, because we have a successful operation down in Southern Ontario who's

a cash cropper, and they, they, they

grow or, or work, you know, 2000 acres and, but a community up on

the North Shore is not gonna be like, well, we wanna be like them.

Well, you can't, you live on, you can live on a pile of rocks.

Right.

That's, that's not an option.

Right.

So it's a lot of it in.

Right now what we're, we're working with communities, um, in

trying to, what, what can you do?

Uh, right.

So then the North Shore guys, it's like, well, you're prime for maple syrup, right?

Like, um, let's, let's see how,

let's see where that can go.

But it's, it's also, um, develop, working with the community and

what they want to do, right?

Because the, the other side to this is employment, right?

So it's.

The lack of employment in, in a lot of First Nation communities.

So, um, agriculture's a lot of labour usually.

Um, so it's what does the community want to do?

So once, if we can get that support, if get the employment in, our

idea is to try to create a large.

Commercial operation, be it, be, you know, your community is the, is

is the specialist in this, right?

And, and, and take that running.

And then the, the other idea is usually First Nations are

kind of clumped together.

So it's, you know, how can, like, say these three, work together in maybe

a project in that these guys have the pasture so they're gonna grow the beef

and then, well, you guys aren't as big, but you could put up the processing

facility and we'll help you get.

Federally approved.

So it, it's only going a mile down the road and it's here, and then

these guys maybe are, are packaging, you know, so it's just how can

we, how can we work together?

Um, and that's kind of our new, our new initiative, um, in, in what

we're trying to put together anyways.

And, and then how can that then go outwards into the problem,

not only help that First Nation and the local First Nation?

But then it also helped, uh, you know, and, and the cool thought, we

thought was, well, wouldn't it be cool if, you know, all the First Nation

communities helped the entire province?

Right.

To kind of back to, you know, why can't we be the leaders we're looked at to, you

know, as well, what did you used to do?

But it's like, we're past what we used to do, unfortunately.

Right?

We're, we're, you know, so how can we move forward and, and, and.

Be back to kind of leaders in, in what we're doing now.

Wow.

That really raises a brilliant insight into the barriers to entry

that people right across the country face when it comes to agriculture.

Except, again, you're evoking a really community centric model in which

rather than think about the farmer as this hero on their own, on a quest,

instead, it's a community project.

In which, you know, the farmer is not acting alone, but has

the support of, you know, many hands making for a lighter load.

How can we lower those barriers to entry and, and are you

essentially making an on-ramp to the agricultural sector as a whole?

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Yeah.

And, and I think that, you know, and I'm not just talking First Nation

communities, like if, say if we looked at, you know, a small town, right?

I grew up in a small town, and let's say that small town said, oh, we're

all gonna work together to do this.

You know, that would be well, more efficient than, you know, the

one guy that has the monstrosity.

And we are all, you know, like I grew up on, I grew up on a small farm, right?

And it's when I, when I was.

And I, and I'm not, I'm, you know, I'm only 35, but when I, all our friends

kind of had farms and we all kind of worked together and did that kind of,

you know, I would go help, you know, my friend's dad do hay and then, then we'd

all go and help his dad do hay, right?

We all had our small little farms where now if I look at my parents, it's one guy

owns the whole concession and he comes in with the tractor that cuts, you know.

It's three rows at once and you know, the square bales are, you

know, a tonne kind of thing.

Um, but it's, we've, I think agriculture, we've gotten out of kind of the,

I dunno, the kind of the small scale helping each other working together.

I mean, I mean, maybe not, maybe we all still kind of work together.

Um, but my thought is First Nation communities are kind of already.

Close knit.

You know, there's, in any community, we all have our struggles working together.

But like if, if the community made the plan, the thought would be, you know,

if we all do this together and like first Asian communities do projects,

and someone said, well, why aren't they doing agricultural projects?

And our opinion was, well, no one's pitched or presented that.

It's a good idea, right?

Like.

You should do mining or you should do, you know, those kind of things.

But the reason they're doing them is because someone said, Hey, it's a good

idea and these are the benefits, right?

So we're taking the approach of, well, we should do agriculture.

It's a good idea.

Here's the benefits fits, right?

And uh, and there's a lot of off, like off, I don't wanna

say kickoffs or kind of sub um.

To doing a commercial, agricultural operation.

There's a lot of little, I don't call it like the waste, right?

The waste that, you know, the chickens that aren't big enough

or the, the vegetables that aren't, don't look pretty right?

That, that could feed that, that community or surrounding.

I am personally a big fan of waste diversion and what

the industry calls food upcycling.

I, I think it's, uh, abhorrent how much food we, we end up throwing

out just 'cause we can't get it to people who want to eat it.

And you're really bringing about this kind of sense of innovation.

That because of the difficult growing conditions, because of the displacement

that has First Nations on land, that may not have been their choosing.

There really is a lot of innovation and resilience going on.

I mean, if you can figure out how to grow food.

Anywhere in Canada's North that can be applied quite widely.

So it strikes me there's a real leadership opportunity, especially

when it comes to maybe smaller agricultural operations, being able to

experiment, being able to try new stuff.

Uh, I, I'm curious to hear your thoughts in this regard.

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Yeah.

Well, and there's tonnes of initiative like we're.

We we're even also just finding out what, finding out about the, a

lot of things that are on the go.

Like there's a community up in Northern Ontario that just planted, I think it

was, and I won't, I dunno the exact number, but let's say it's a hundred

and some fruit trees and it's all in attest to be like, well, no one's

ever planted fruit trees over here.

We have no idea they're cold climate trees, but you know.

No one's thought, oh, well let's grow fruit up here.

Right.

You know, no one knows.

Um, so there is a lot of, you know, kind of experimental in, in stuff in the works.

Um, and then there's definitely so many challenges.

Um, so it, it is gonna be hard, but like, like you said, right?

If one, if a community figures out, Hey, you know, this worked great up here.

You know, it doesn't mean, you know, the idea would be that, well, why

don't all these five communities in this area that are in the same,

you know, won't they all do it?

And then we fly it, fly it down, you know, like it's, I don't know.

We're not gonna know till we try.

That was my, our thought, you know?

'cause we, we sat down and it's, 'cause we always had the question,

the big question we asked was, well, what, what are you guys doing for,

you know, you guys are the ag guys.

You know, what are you doing for food security?

What is, how do we as a community, how do we become food secure?

You know?

And, and self-sufficient is the other big word.

Um, which, you know, in today, I don't think we can be completely

like a community, right?

We've gotten to the numbers where we can't be self-sufficient.

Um, especially my, like, I live in a First Nation community and it's, you

know, it's, we have, I think it's like 12.

We have, we have 3000 members in the community.

But we're like, the idea, the thought of, if, you know, if we did something

where we're growing this big farm and we're feeding 3000 people for

free, the 12,000 members, you think they're just gonna be like, well,

what, you know, I'm coming back.

I want free food.

Right?

So it's like all of a sudden, okay, so now it's, we're feeding, feeding 12,000.

That's not possible in the land size we have.

Um, so it's like, well.

What can we do that's in our, in our land size, what can we do that's gonna

be, we're gonna be experts in this, and then they're gonna be experts.

And they're gonna be experts and, you know, and then we pile that together

and it's, oh, we're feeding, you know,

a pot, you know, a larger, you know, maybe we're feeding the province, right?

Or, I mean, even that's, that's a 'cause Ontario's so populated, but.

You raise a really important point in terms of the on

res versus off res, uh, populations of various first nations, and the extent

to which they can kind of leverage, uh, those kind of relationships

and kind of extend the agricultural operations beyond the community and

do the kind of marketing and outreach that traditional farmers kind of do.

But in this case with again, the power.

Of community.

I, I, I'm curious if there are advantages to the reality that indigenous folks,

whether from specific nations or in terms of just larger communities, as

this happens in urban centres, whether there a kind of resource that can be

tapped into when it comes to advancing indigenous agriculture as a whole.

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: yes, definitely.

They definitely are tech, province and the world technically.

Um.

But believe it or not, um, in agriculture, most of the agricultural startups that we

have are off the reserve due to the kind of the restraint of land in a community.

Right?

So especially in Southern Ontario, most of the communities that

have turned into housing, right.

And even there's a shortage there.

So most of, um.

Our agricultural operations that we do do are off reserve.

And that's also something that we're also trying to push to communities is,

so there's this, I don't know the exact numbers, I'm not gonna get it right, but

you know, I think F-C-C-F-C-C has the stat and they said that I think it's like 2030.

I'm gonna get it wrong no matter what I say.

But by 2030 it's like 60% of our farms are,

um, retiring.

Right.

So then the other, the other side to this is, well,

we're trying to pitch also that how come our first nations aren't being

the ones in line to buy these farms?

Yes.

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Right?

Yes.

And, and, and you know, if, if, if, 'cause like you're saying, you know,

it's an established farm is like, so capital, capital intensive, right?

Um.

But First Nation communities have more opportunities, I think, um, to

borrow than First Nation individual.

Um, and then it's, you know, how do we turn that kind of opportunity into, you

know, a larger operation or something that then supports the community

and then supports food production.

Um.

Wow.

That's a really brilliant policy idea because it kind of closes the

loop in terms of, on the one hand, addressing the ageing, the demographic

crisis that affects, uh, farmers right across the country that they

don't really have succession in place.

They don't have people who want to take over, and yet First Nations

have the opposite demographic issue, that there's lots of young people

and, and really a, a desire to create opportunities for work, for engagement.

I mean, what a way to not only address the kind of succession and demographics,

but also empower First Nations, uh, as key players through the agricultural sector.

I mean, Camden, I I got a joke.

You got any other brilliant policy ideas sitting around on your table

that you could share with us?

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: No.

Well, I mean, a lot of that idea came from, you know, I'm in the same position

as most right, where my parents have the farm, and my plan was to take it over.

And, you know, technically it's, there's nothing, nothing

I can do on that farm that.

We will make the payment.

Right.

So it's like, well,

you know, and it's not a big farm, right?

A hundred acres, you know, which is kind of the no man's land of,

you know, what do you do here?

You know, I can't have enough, can't have enough animals, I can't grow enough

crops, you know, to then just, and we're talking Southern Ontario right?

To justify the 1.5 million that it's worth.

Um, but with that, with that said, um.

A First Nation, like I'm talking, I'm talking First Nation communities, looking

at big, bigger operations and you know, like I know there's, um, opportunities

coming up every day in terms of, um, greenhouse, greenhouse facilities.

I know there's a bison farm, like those kind of things.

And you would, it, it's, it's working out how.

You know, how we get, uh, those first nations stepping in and saying,

how do we, how do we get this?

And then how do we take it to the next level?

Um,

with also, you know, the other big thing that we're working on is how do we,

how do we get training in place, right?

Because it's not like, you know, these, and even for, for,

you know, for anyone, right?

It's, you can't.

A big thing is, you know, there's not a tonne of agriculture education

and it's, it's not super specific.

So it's, you know, how do you get someone that may be interested in

agriculture and then the community buys, let's say a large dairy operation.

You know, it's like, well, how do we get those on a fast track training?

Or is there a possibility where we say, Hey, we're gonna buy this farm off you

guys as a community, but you guys have to stay for two years and we'll pay you.

To train, train, train us, right.

To to, mm-hmm.

You know, to, so it doesn't fall flat on its face after we buy it.

Right.

Um, and a lot of that's passed down, you know, usually generation to generation.

Right.

But if we're, if we're looking at a first generation getting into it, you know.

That's one of the challenges.

And I think one of the other positives to commercial scale is one of the big things

with what we've seen over the years is, well, we're not, communities are saying,

well, we're not getting people that are, or we're not getting enough employees to

work for us, and those kind of things.

And it's, well, you, what are you paying them?

Right?

Like for example, in our community, the, the cannabis boom was huge and.

And even for our organisation, we were looking for employees and it's

like, well, why would I come work for you when I can go stand in a pot

shop and make 50 bucks an hour cash?

And it's like, you know, so, so there's this thing where it's like commercial

scale should be and maybe smoke on the job and, and smoke all day on the job.

Exactly.

Um, where it's, you know, we have to be able to create operations

that are gonna provide a wage that justifies people being there.

Right.

So it's, it's almost too, so now we have to go commercial scale, right?

I do wanna speak to scale, but you brought something up when you

mentioned mining that I think is really important and it, it gets to the kind of

literacy that exists within a community or specifically within leadership in

that because mining is, uh, such a hot topic here in Ontario and it's

certainly getting a lot of attention.

People learn about it.

Right.

They think about the opportunities, the infrastructure opportunities,

the employment opportunities, the broader community concerns.

But agriculture on the other hand, kind of gets taken for granted.

It's the thing we sort of, you know, like our food just assume it's gonna be there.

How do we foster that kind of agricultural literacy, especially amongst leaders

so that they start recognising the kind of opportunities that exist

both in the agricultural sector.

But as we mentioned earlier, in terms of innovation within the agricultural

sector, so that farming and agriculture kind of has the same appeal or the

same profile as the mining sector.

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: And I think it starts back

with education, right?

Like I went to, you know, I went to the type of high school that, you

know, the kids, the dairy farmers wore their barn boots right to

school, kind of, kind of place.

And um, and they were just there because their parents made them there

and they couldn't wait to, you know, be done with school just to work

on the farm all day kind of thing.

But I was in that high school and you know.

I didn't learn anything about agriculture technically.

Um, well, it's not really, it's not like not a topic or not like,

unless you're doing a co-op and going and working on a farm.

It's not really something that is pushed or even talked about.

But it's, someone told me the other day, so, and I don't know if you follow

the news, but in, so I live in Tanga and you know, we had the a hundred and

some odd million dollar pot fus, right?

All the illegal pop bus in the community and all these greenhouses.

All these things.

And then I was talking to somebody and they're like, you know what?

You know, it's amazing they were growing it.

Those kind of things.

But they're like, at the current price, they would've made more

money growing basil plants.

Yes.

, camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Yes.

Right.

And it's like, well, why can't we, you know?

'cause a basal plant technically goes for more than a pot plant right now.

So they're like, if they grew that many basil plants, they actually would've

made more money and not gone to jail.

So I think it's just education in, you know, we, we all go to the store and see

the prices and pay, you know, 10 bucks for this basil plant or whatever, right?

But it never occurs, well, if I grew, you know, a million of these, right?

So I think it's just education in that, you know, food's not gonna go away.

Um, ever, you know, or the need for food.

So it's like, how do we educate and get to the point?

Like, another story is we had a client that agriculture, loved agriculture,

went to school for agriculture and he wanted to become a potato farmer in

Toronto, and we're like, not gonna happen.

And, uh, but he did it.

He did it right and he bought all the equipment and he, he talked

to all the big farmers in the area and he rotationally did 10 acres

every year by himself of potatoes.

And his motto to the grocery store was, um, I will harvest

the potatoes and get them to your grocery store in less than 12 hours.

Like they're outta the ground and in your grocery store cleaned in less than

10 hours or 12 hours, and he made over a hundred thousand dollars a year doing that

. On 10 acres of potatoes.

So it's like there's opportunities because you know, all the other potatoes come from

who knows where, you know, he advertised, you know, no chemicals pick that day.

Like you can't get anything fresher.

And he sold for a premium price and, and made a tonne of money.

But it's like.

If you're not in it, you don't know that

Although I think even if you are in it, that doesn't mean you know it.

The nature of the agricultural sector is, it's really complicated.

It's wide, broad, diverse.

I mean, just your point about recognising that Basel will get you a better margin

than, say, growing marijuana plants.

I mean that that's.

Pretty significant, and it's not the type of thing that people really think about.

I think part of it reflects how as the industry has become consolidated,

there just aren't enough people experimenting, thinking, doing crazy

things, and maybe that's the benefit of not just having communities engaged

the sector, but of having new actors that they'll think of new stuff to try.

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Yeah.

And that's a good question, right?

And that's kind of what we're kind of pondering, right?

Like how do we.

You know, because how do we get the youth involved?

How do we get the kids involved in showing them that, you know, 'cause

they're seeing, you know, they're seeing the headline, you know, oh, there's, you

know, 12 million, whatever it was, right?

X million a hundred.

It was like 120 some million worth of pot plants.

They're like, oh, look at the money in pot.

Right?

And it's like, you know, but no one's saying, you know, the article,

you know, that could have been.

250 million in basil, you know, like,

but yeah, it's, and to your point as well, right?

Like the guy that does the potatoes, no big potato farmer is gonna be doing that.

You know, they're gonna harvest them, they're gonna put the chemicals on them,

you know, says there is opportunity, like there is opportunities for the small guys.

And I'm not saying that, you know, like that guy that does the 10 acres of

potatoes, he works like a madman, right?

Like he harvests in the morning.

He washes them all bags.

The mall drives them to the store himself, like it's a one man show, but he loves it.

Right?

So it's also how do we create that love for agriculture,

I think part of what I'm hearing in your remarks is a different

approach to scale, and as we mentioned earlier, you know, scale is obviously a

huge focus for the agricultural sector.

Everyone wants to scale, to focus on exports, to be able to afford

the equipment, do the kind of operations that you can't do.

If to your point, you only have a hundred acres.

But you're kind of describing a, again, a community centric model of scale

where it's not just larger operations, but multiple communities cooperating,

cooperating together, you know, sharing different elements of what would

make, uh, value added production.

Uh, I'd love to hear you unpack that a little.

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: No, no, for sure.

And that was kind of another thought we had is, you know,

'cause we talked, you know.

Um, we get approached by Metro and Sobeys and the food lands, right?

We, like, we get calls and say, Hey, we need, you know,

a pile of this, right?

And it's like, well, we have no one growing that much.

And even if we compiled, let's say all of our guys, they're

not gonna grow that much.

Um, but I do think that the potentially our, 'cause another question is, you

know, from a community asking us, well.

Who are we gonna sell it to, right?

Like, we're gonna grow all this and, you know, our community can't buy it all.

Like, so the thought was, you know,

if we got moving forward, there's power in creating a, a brand, right?

Like, you know, who's the community that's maybe the, you know, there's tonnes of

small communities that have no land.

It's like, well put up a warehouse and you're the, you package everything.

Right.

Like it's under one brand and, and then it goes from there to whoever the buyer is.

Right?

Um, but that's, I mean, that would be the end goal and we're

still at, at, uh, step one.

But, but no, I definitely think there's, um, you know, to, I think there would

be my opinion, uh, a premium price on, you know, like, oh, we knew this.

They look for the logo or the brand and it's, we know that was grown by a First

Nation community and you know, there could be a story behind it and what

community it came from and the care that went into it, or how it was grown and um.

I totally agree, and if we look at, for example, how consumers have

treated organic food in the marketplace, whether as a category or specific brands

within it, it does suggest that if there was a First Nations affiliated brand

or a broader indigenous brand in the marketplace, that a lot of Canadians

would feel really good supporting it.

Kind of speak to the, the, the value and perception that can

be played by empowering these communities to be part of the sector.

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Well, and the other thought too was,

and I am taken this from another colleague, this is not my idea.

But he's, he was saying his vision in this kind of thing is, you know,

you go to every grocery store and there's an international aisle, right.

Or two international aisles.

He goes, but there's no, there's no indigenous aisle I

Right.

In any grocery store.

Right.

You're lucky to even get one, one indigenous brand in the store,

but 'cause it, because it's hard.

Right.

It's definitely hard.

But, but hi, his vision is to, to have a full, you know.

Indigenous aisle in, you know, whatever chain he's talking to.

Right.

But, but like, it's, it's, it's definitely there's opportunity and,

and everyone's open to the idea.

It's just how do we, how do we get the production, how do we

get the people interested, the community's interested, um, and,

and start getting production going.

Right.

And, and that's where we're kind of putting the pieces together.

But it's, it's.

It's definitely, definitely not easy, right?

Like there's a lot of pieces of the puzzle, training capital, um,

getting a community to come together.

Um,

I would certainly love to have you back to talk more about

those pieces and the way in which they kind of start connecting together.

And I, I've certainly benefited from, you know, your wisdom, your,

your perspective in terms of what's happening a, a across the sector.

You know, two questions, uh, before we end.

Uh, the first, is there anything that we haven't talked about that

we should before we conclude?

I.

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Well, I'll just, one other, one other

thing that we are working on that oh, we would have to talk about next time we're

on the call is, um, we are working, uh, part of this bigger idea is, um, we have

started conversations with the quota holders, the quota, what do you call them?

Boards or.

Like dairy

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Um, yeah, dairy, chicken,

those kind of things.

Turkey that.

Yeah.

And how, and how that would play, you know, how do we get First

Nations, um, in holding quota?

Um, you know, we're all familiar kind of with the quota world

and in some instances mm-hmm.

Um, when quota came out, it was removed from First Nation people that held, not,

not held it, but that were producers.

Right.

Um, there's a couple people in our community that, uh.

Were dairy farmers at the time, and they weren't eligible for quota

because they were First Nation.

So it's how do we, you know, in the spirit of reconciliation, how do we, um, get

some communities involved in that world.

Um, so that's, that's, that's in the works.

Um, but a great opportunity, right, for

Mm-hmm.

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: communities . To be in those sectors.

And, and, uh, it's kind of where the kind of, uh, another little brief story is.

Um.

Is, uh, which got me kind of interested in communities doing this, is we have

a client that, that is a, a chicken holder, um, and raises, um, his, his

birds, his contracts with Costco.

And, uh, if we've all been to Costco, you know, they raise, or like,

you know, those chickens are kind of small turkeys in size, right?

Um, but I, I was talking to him and I said, well, you know, you just

put the feed out in chickens, eat.

Right.

So what happens if a chicken doesn't meet the Costco 20 pound, you know, 25

pound benchmark to be a Costco chicken?

And he goes, well, they don't want them.

They get, they just get killed.

It's garbage.

You know, so it's like . You know, if a First Nation community had

that contract, how many 18 pound tur chickens could be just in the community?

Right.

So it's.

There's, there's some, there's some exciting things on, on that side, but

Right on.

Uh, now our last question that I'm now starting to ask every guest we have on

the show is, who are some leaders that you wanna shout out to, uh, people who

deserve more attention that we should be paying attention to, or that you

just wanna show some respect towards?

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: Oh, um, a big, a big one that's, uh, done some

big thing in the ag world is, um, Monica.

Um, Monica James at FCC, she's kind of, um, if you're familiar, they've

started their, um, indigenous, indigenous, uh, branch of FCC.

Uh, and that's kind of where we've, um, connected a lot and have moved, moved a

lot of things forward with FCC and they've definitely jumped on board and, and kind

of have, let's say, have our back in terms of the capital, the capital side, and,

and we're starting to work with them.

Um, just, uh, just.

The N-C-I-A-F is doing, uh, some great things there as well.

Um,

Awesome.

Thanks Camden, and I really appreciate you coming on the show.

We definitely have to get you back.

You know, you evoked, uh, the word reconciliation and while on the one

hand I think encouraging and supporting, uh, the expansion of indigenous agri.

Culture is a great example of that.

But I also think it's a leadership opportunity.

'cause as you've demonstrated today, I think there's a lot that we can be

learning from First Nations who engage farming, who engage the food sector and

do so on terms of their own, that match their culture and that bring innovation

I think that we can all learn from.

So, uh, thank you very much.

camden-lawrence_1_03-04-2026_100637: No, definitely.

Um, like we're just at the beginning of this, this kind of say journey,

uh, in, in how do we, how we really become agricultural, uh, I don't

want to call it leaders, right?

Um, in the, in the province.

And yeah, it'd be, it'd be great to reconnect and, uh, see

where we're at in a, in a maybe a year's time or so, and, uh.

Talk about some of the, some of the projects we actually got on the go.

Before we close, I wanna return to something that surfaced

several times in this conversation.

The difference between talking about opportunity and actually building the

conditions that make opportunity possible.

What Camden helped illuminate is that indigenous agriculture in Canada

isn't just about producing food.

It's about building institutions, building access to capital, and building the

capacity for communities to participate in an industry that is becoming increasingly

complex and capital intensive.

Agriculture today rewards scale, coordination and long-term investment.

And those realities shape what kinds of projects are possible and

how they need to be structured.

But what also comes through clearly is that there is real momentum

across First Nations communities.

There's growing interest in agriculture, in agribusiness,

and in the broader food economy.

And organisations like First Nations Agriculture and Finance Ontario are

working in the middle of that space, helping translate ambition into viable

projects, helping communities navigate financing and helping new producers

find their footing in a sector that can be very difficult to enter.

For the rest of the AgriFood sector, there's an important lesson here as well.

Indigenous agriculture is not just a social initiative or a

policy conversation, it's an emerging part of the economic

landscape of Canadian agriculture.

And as Camden pointed out, the question going forward is not simply

whether indigenous communities will participate, but how they will shape

the sector as that participation grows.

Camden, thank you for sharing your perspective and for giving us a

clear picture of the work underway to support not only First Nations

producers, but the agricultural sector as a whole when we learn from

each other and embrace the diverse opportunities that are in front of us.

And of course, to everyone listening, thanks for joining us for another

episode of The Future Herd.

I'm Jesse Hirsh.

I'll see you next time.