Heidi Boucher is a home funeral guide and writer and director of the documentary ‘In the Parlor’ where she follows the intimate journey of three families as they navigate caring for their dead at home. Heidi’s work with death is tender and truly beautiful. In this episode we unpack how funerals moved from the parlors of our homes to funeral parlors in just 150 years including the rise of the funeral industrial complex. We explore the very human emotion of conflating our fear of grief, loss, and ‘abandonment’ with the fear of death and the dead. This is as much an exploration of how to have a funeral in your home and navigating the legalities and practicalities of it as it is a conversation around grief. We talk about forming relationships with our dead loved ones, whether they’ve died recently or in the distant past and forming a relationship with grief, who we walk hand in hand with in this life. This is an unfurling conversation and while it may seem heavy at first blush - I left it with an incredible sense of lightness. 

We also talk about:

• Navigating death with children and teens
• Scaling home funerals
• & so much more

Find Heidi: 

Film: In the Parlor (intheparlordoc.com)

Get in touch with Heidi: heidibouch@comcast.net

Timestamps:

00:03:20: the Funeral Industry by the Numbers

00:08:29: Introducing Heidi and setting intentions

00:11:44: How death and funeral care has shifted in 150 years

00:21:27: How our views of death have shifted 

00:26:57: Fear of death vs fear of grief 

00:37:30: Modeling death as parents//for children

00:46:03: How media has shifted death 

00:52:39: The ‘how tos’ of home funeral care 

01:04:52: Nurturing our relationships with the dead 

01:15:14: The first 72 hours after death - making room for grief

01:30:18: Funeral care is scalable - you can pick and choose what you want to do

01:39:20: Bringing death home 

A List of Books Mentioned:

Find the full list HERE

More Resources:

Home Funeral Alliance 

Current Discounts for MBS listeners:

• 15% off Farm True ghee and body care products using code: KATEKAV15
• 20% off Home of Wool using code KATEKAVANAUGH for 10% off
• 15% off Bon Charge blue light blocking gear using code: MINDBODYSOIL15

Join the Ground Work Collective:

Find a Farm: nearhome.groundworkcollective.com

Find Kate: @kate_kavanaugh

More: groundworkcollective.com

Podcast disclaimer can be found by visiting: groundworkcollective.com/disclaimer

Howdy.

I'm Kate Kavanaugh, and you're listening to the Mind, body and Soil Podcast where

we're laying the groundwork for our land, ourselves, and for generations

to come by looking at the way every threat of life is connected to one

another, communities above ground, near the communities, below the soil, which

mirror the vast community of the cosmos.

As the saying goes, as above so below, join me as we take a curious journey

into agriculture, biology, history, spirituality, health, and so much more.

I can't wait to unearth all of these incredible topics alongside you.

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Mind, body and Soil Podcast.

I am your host, Kate Kavanaugh, and I have a.

Flavor podcast today.

One of the things that I have found in exploring our food system, our

connection to food and agriculture, is that once you start exploring, you

find that in many ways, our food and how we eat is tied to everything else.

Like a clown pulling a, a string of flags from its mouth.

Things just keep on coming.

And pretty soon you're looking at the education system and the medical system.

And for me, there was always a connection between my food and death.

I think that years of being a vegetarian and then leaving that to be a butcher

and then wanting to raise all of my own food here on the farm, that

has always been a bit of a guiding force in, in how I see the world.

But it was something that I wanted to begin to explore on a

deeper level here on the podcast.

And as I did that, I was actually recommended the film in the Parlor

directed and written by Heidi Bouche, who is our guest today.

Heidi is also a home funeral helping hand and has been so for the last 40 years.

And I think that this is a really beautiful podcast and I encourage

everyone to, to listen to it.

It, it, it isn't always comfortable to face our relationship with death.

And I know that for.

One of the things that I found in researching this episode is that for

me, it's not comfortable to face my relationship with grief and with fear

of loss and abandonment, and that that is tied together so inextricably

with death, that it is almost impossible to tease out which is which.

But in doing this podcast and going deep into this subject matter, I, I

found, I found some peace and some healing for anyone that might be

coming to this podcast in a space where they're looking for immediate

information and have experienced a death.

I just want you to know that there are resources out there for you, that

there are people out there that, that do this work and that are there to help

you, and that this is something that is possible to have guides and educators,

that it is legal in all 50 states to care for your loved ones after death.

It is legal in all 50 states to opt out of practices like embalming.

There are some, some caveats to that, but for the most part, there are

people there willing to help you, and it truly is possible to find a

different space of how we care for our.

I think with that, I actually wanted to talk just a little bit about

the funeral industrial complex.

I was really struck at what a massive industry this is and it makes sense.

I mean, it makes sense that an industry would arise around something

that is inevitable for all of us.

But I was struck by the numbers.

Uh, the funeral industry at the time of this recording in 2023 represented

about a 20 billion industry where.

you have an increase in funeral costs that have risen 1328% in just four decades.

Caskets are being marked up on average, 289% from wholesale to

retail, and cremation has gained in popularity immensely from about 3.56%

in 1960 to a projected, 70% of all funerals will be by cremation by 2030.

I think that it's interesting to peak at these statistics and also to

understand that a growing percentage of funeral homes are actually a chain.

Um, most of them, S c I, which is the name of the chain, they have a 4 billion

market cap and a growing percentage of the funeral home industry under

what look like little brands, and they're at 14% and rapidly growing.

And I think that looking at that as part of just understanding the

nature of this and understanding what it would mean, much like we have.

Had this resurgence of wanting to give birth at home, that there is a resurgence

of wanting to care for our dead.

This is very possible, and like you'll hear in the course of this

conversation, it is not an option that some of us even know exists.

I certainly did not know what my options were before diving into this,

which was a big reason that I wanted to bring you this episode was that

so we all had the information that we needed to do things differently.

If we so choose, and I want to be really clear about this.

There is no right, there is no wrong in all of this.

There is no good way.

There is no bad way.

There is no shaming in any of this.

This is all meant to serve as information of what is possible and

not a suggestion for what you might do.

As you're going through this podcast, I want to.

To invite you to treat yourself so gently, so tenderly, as we explore a difficult

topic and as we traverse what I think are not super explored waters, I am

not going to have a long call to action or set of ads inside of this podcast.

I really want this to be just a space for us to explore together and, and to

hold it tenderly, anything you're looking for is going to be in the show notes.

I have a, where we're going to be exploring more about death as well,

which I will give a small shout out to.

And without further ado, I really want to introduce this week's guest,

and I really want to encourage you all to seek out in the parlor.

Heidi is working to get this into a digital format, but in the interim,

she has DVDs available and also offers incredible opportunities to provide

screenings within your community.

This is something that I'm looking at for myself.

I think that the exploration of death done in community is exactly what we need.

It is a space where we can then be held and have conversations and really explore

our own curiosity or our own grief around some of these topics together.

So I encourage you to reach out to her.

Her email is in the show notes, and I am just so grateful to Heidi for

doing this work and for showing us this beautiful work throughout the

course of her film in the parlor.

So here's.

I am Justin.

I know I said this before, before I hit record, but I am so grateful for

you coming on to explore this topic with me because this exploration

has been a real, a real gift for me.

It hasn't, it hasn't been an easy exploration, but it's been a real gift

and I'm really grateful for the work that you've put out into the world and

that you're, you're doing in this space.

Thank

you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Well, I'm, I'm excited to be here and was really, um, I was actually really

thrilled to, to read a little bit about you and to see what you were doing.

So the feeling is mutual.

I'm excited to be here and hope I can shed some more insight to

your process and what you do.

So

yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for that.

I wondered if we might start, and I wanna be really careful that throughout

the course of this conversation, I don't conflate some of the work that I've done

as a farmer with the work that you do and in these sort of different spaces

of holding very, very different deaths.

But one thing that's always been important to me, whenever, whenever I'm in a space

where death has been, is present or is going to be present, has been setting a.

setting a tone or in an intention for that space.

I find that with death, especially the emotional spectrum that it

elicits from us is, is wide.

And I like to leave space for the everything that can come up in

exploring some of these topics, um, from, from grief and sadness to joy

and even laughter and discomfort.

And I wondered if there was any way in which you wanted to

kind of set the conversation as somebody who, who does this

work as far as the tone and, and that sort of Yeah.

Yeah.

Well I think what you're saying is actually spot on that, um,

without sounding glib or irreverent or dark, we have to remember

that this is holy conversation.

This is sacred conversation.

But within that, there's always room for humor.

There's always room for lightness.

There's always room for things.

As long as they're respectful, you know, and as long as we can, um, know that

we're talking from our experience and our truth, I think, I think pretty much

anything goes, you know, I think we we're respectful people and I would imagine

that your audience is also respect.

. Kate: Absolutely.

And I think they're, I think they're interested in this conversation.

It was actually a, a guest that had been on that brought up the movement

of home birth and what it would mean to bring death home as well.

And it was that moment where I got really curious about what was

possible, that I hadn't considered that as an option, and that I

didn't know that that was out there.

And so, so I think that this is a conversation that people are craving.

I think we have, we have tucked death away.

We have hidden it in so many ways.

And I think, I know that for me personally, in that has created more fear.

And I wondered if we might start there with the ways in which we've,

we, the ways in which home death and funerals have changed over the course

of the last 150 years or so, and, and what led us to how we, we generally

conceive of funeral care today.

Mm.

. Heidi: It's a big question and there has

years, just I think because there's a consciousness opening up somewhere and

we had the whole home birth movement and now, ooh, can we bring death home?

And yeah, we absolutely can.

You know, as we know families, this is nothing new.

This, this is old stuff.

And families have been caring for their newly born and newly dead, you will

forever, since the beginning of time.

So I have to always say, okay, wait, this is not new.

We're just waking up and going back to what we might have forgotten about,

what we didn't know about and what was hidden and taken away from us.

Yeah, so people were caring for their own dead all the time.

As I said, up until the, you know, the 19 hundreds, the 20th century,

really part of the 20th century, and things started changing as people

started moving away into urban life more and getting more busy.

And then, you know, that they weren't around to do the vigils and to,

to necessarily care for the dead.

They were, they were off doing work.

And also with the Civil War, that changed tremendously.

The.

Culture of, of how we care for our dad, you know, with the setting up of

the embalming tents on the battlefield and embalming, uh, the soldiers so

that they could be taken away to their families, often taking days and days

and days to get home and arriving home in really gruesome, uh, situations.

So President Lincoln basically made it unconsciously but fashionable to be

almed because he was embalmed and he was put on the train and he state to

state, to state to preserve his body so people could pay their respects.

And that kind of shifted the tide of, oh gosh, if the president is getting

embalmed, then hey, look at this thing.

And things kept progressing, progressively changing in, you

know, continuingly, what's the word?

Medicalized and monetized.

Uh, the monetized part came with a fervor little bit later, but it was the 1920s,

the 1930s that kind of, the funeral industry locked in and said, all right,

we've, we've, there's a way for us to, to take this and to, to run with it.

And I'm giving a very crass, broad overview.

I mean, people, it's, it's very fascinating and people really, um, if

they have the time and the interest, It is interesting to see the details

and how complex, and yet how simple something that was so sacred was taken

and just thrown away if you'll mm-hmm.

now, it didn't happen in every state.

It, it slowly happened across different states.

In some parts, the country, especially the south, kept onto those traditions.

So over time, as we all get busy, we all change.

Uh, it became kind of a status quo to have the funeral director come

and take the body away and put it in one of these big fancy houses,

you know, the big funeral homes.

So it was sort of keeping up with the Joneses and that, you know, that that

image of affluence and yes, we're not going to be taking care of our loved one.

The funeral director will take care of our loved one.

And, you know, it, it's, it's an interesting thing and I, I think that as

a society, historically, things change, you know, and things ebb and flow.

But sadly, I, we just lost touch.

We lost touch with that sacred part of what we all go through.

We all are gonna die.

We all are gonna experience death.

And, um, it was taken away.

It really was.

And we allowed it, you know, for whatever reason.

Yeah.

So that's sort of in a nutshell.

The kind of the historical aspect.

And I think that in the last 20 years, things have started to shift.

Yeah.

So I hope, I hope that kind of gives a little bit of a picture

that does, that really frames it beautifully.

And I'm really struck by that word taken away to use the words

taken away in regards to this.

And I'm also struck, you know, throughout the course of this podcast, there are

a lot of things that shift at the end of the, at the end of the 20th century

for, at the end of the 19th century for a variety of different reasons

that our, our food system really begins to shift that the way that

we work, the way that school works.

I mean, just, just the sort of cascade of different things change

during that time in the rise of sort of the industrial revolution.

And I think that it's important to pause in that space of this is something

that has been taken away because I think it has been throughout time.

I mean, even when we find remains of, of hunter-gatherer societies,

this process of, of caring for and, and honoring our dead is perhaps

a big part of what it means to be

human.

Yeah.

I, I agree.

Agree.

Yeah.

It's interesting that you, that you say that it's not just.

Death.

It's a whole slew of things.

It's a whole chain of different things that are, that are extremely important

to us as, as individuals and families and communities and la la la But yeah, I, I

hadn't thought of that picture before.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm sure there's probably a lot more too we could dive into.

Oh my gosh, yeah.

Yes.

And it's interesting to watch it all come together.

And I think that there are probably some influencing factors there.

And I think when you use the word medicalization and there's a whole

different push for, for cleanliness in our food system at a, at a very interesting

level during that time, um, it's part of what usher's in processed food, and

I can't help but wonder if some of that carried over into the idea of, of death

being in some way unclean during that time and that that sort of narrative

getting, getting embedded into that space.

And one thing that I really heard while you were talking is that.

as this went on for generations as we were separated from this, then we don't

even know what we're separated from it.

It's sort of a lost knowledge.

And while maybe several generations ago, your mother or you saw your grandmother

in the parlor as it were, you know, fast forward to today, there's no connection

to that way of caring for the dead.

Yeah,

yeah.

And, and, and you're right.

It's very much like our relationship to food and to the land and to

animals and to da, da da, da, da.

You know, all of it.

We, we, it's a stepping stone away.

And the further we get, we go, oh, yeah, why did we do that?

Or then it just becomes normal and it just, because it

becomes the thing that we do.

It, it reminds me of when I'm talking to people and mo mostly, well, actually

several years ago when the movement wasn't even a movement and I was doing this

work, I think 99 to a hundred percent of the people that I would speak to

about this just assumed that everybody, everybody gets involved, you know?

Mm-hmm.

, and not to go dark so fast, but you're fine is like processing

food, . Oh, what are you doing?

It's, you're gonna make a hot dog outta that really?

Beef there.

Okay.

Well, wow.

When you're embalming, you're just injecting just toxins and, and chemicals.

So it's a different kind of processing, but it's processing as far as I'm, yeah.

So yes, there's a lot of mirroring.

There's a lot of, yeah.

It, it, it just PE people don't know.

They just don't know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And

it, I mean, same for the food system, right?

Like these are very, these are industries that are obfuscated.

It's very opaque.

It's very hard to see, to see past of some of what we're presented with.

And I, and I think that that disconnects us further.

I have this question for you and I, I'd like to know, do you think the way that,

as you see this progression, this change in the way we're caring for our dead

happen over the last 100, 150 years, do you think that the way that we conduct a

funeral or the way that we have a funeral relates to how, to our relationship with

death that this changes our perception of our relationship with death?

I think it can, and I think it has.

And I think it does.

But yeah, that's a, that's a good question.

Hmm.

I think it does.

I think it does.

I think we have, you know, we have lost a sense of ritual.

As well.

Mm-hmm.

, you know, and, and the funeral is, the funeral is a ritual.

It is.

It is.

Whether, whatever faith or whatever, uh, belief system you have, when one

conducts a funeral, it is a ritual.

And thank God, even though it has turned into a, for some,

a circus, it's still a ritual.

Now, I guess, and I hate to keep going back to food, but don't do it.

When you go to McDonald's, it's still food, right?

It's food.

And what my family, what we call, we call it eat and fill.

Mm-hmm.

, right?

So you can have an eat and fill funeral, you can can have a funeral.

That's kind of a ritual.

And it is a ritual, but is it nurturing?

Is it fulfilling?

Is it connecting you to something bigger or greater?

Whatever that may be.

So that's a really interesting question.

Yeah.

And I, and I think it was worth exploring, so I don't know exactly how to answer

it because I think individuals also have a different relationship with it

that some of the conventional funerals that I've been to, and forgive me

cuz I get really outspoken about it.

Please,

we're all for outspoken on this podcast,

a lot of funerals, A lot.

And I will sit in the back and sometimes I'm.

Literally wanting to pull my hair out because I feel, why are we

not talking about the dead person?

Why does everybody stand up and talk about themselves?

I cannot tell you.

99% of the time when you go to a funeral, uncle Chuck gets up and Aunt Marge gets

up and they say, well, I knew it starts off with, I knew that person, or I had

this relationship, or I, it becomes about them, all right, I get it because you're

trying to paint a picture and set a stage.

But if we were to really stop and say, wait a minute, this

is not about me right now.

This really is about the person who's passed.

So how do we reframe, how do we use words that are not me oriented, like everything

else we all do, it's me, me, me.

But to stop and say Jane was a remarkable person, and to start off thinking about

that person and then it kind of shifts the paradigm a little bit and then we can

think about creating, creating this event that's really about the other person.

Now, that's a very simplistic way of, of, of saying that, but.

when we remember that this is a sacred, that the funeral is a sacred ritual,

and we can make a ritual that is less about us, but about the person who

has died and to be, be a little bit more thoughtful in how we approach it.

That's one, that's one thing for me that I just get a little bit riled up about us.

Let's make it less about ourselves and less about the trappings.

Because a simple candle and a simple poem and flowers and coming from the

right intention in a quiet, gentle way can be way more meaningful than

a 15, 16, 18, $20,000 funeral with, with all the stuff to, to make a show.

That's just my humble opinion.

That's probably not so humble.

It's kind of a outspoken,

I loved it.

Um, yeah, I loved it.

And I think you illustrate this so well, and in the parlor you illustrate what is

possible when we maybe sit down and take a breath and imagine what it would be to.

Have a sacred space for this person that we so loved to transition.

And you speak about those, those 72 hours is, is oftentimes that three day

span is a space to give that person that has died a a place in between.

Mm-hmm.

, a place in between here and there.

Wherever.

Wherever there is.

Right.

But, yeah.

And

well, and so did you like the film?

Was it, did it bring other stuff up too?

Yes.

Yes.

I loved the film.

Um, it teased a lot of things out.

And I, I think I said this, I think I said this prior, you know, preparing

for this interview was, was not easy.

And it's funny, as you were, as you were talking and as I was experiencing kind

of coming through this interview, one of the things that was really present for

me was teasing out my own fear of death.

With my own fear of grief.

Mm-hmm.

, my own fear of, of loss and, and having to go through that and, and separating

them out because I think it's, I think it's easy to, to combine them as one.

Mm-hmm.

. And so much of preparing about this was, for me, I have a very active imagination.

Was , was, was imagining what this might be like to go through

with my own loved ones and to imagine what that might feel like.

And so not just to imagine my own position and my own wants and desires

for my own death, but also what it would be to hold the death of others.

And I think in that, that was one of the most difficult things to move

through in this, that I, I, I think we're, we're always moving through.

I don't wanna, I don't wanna sound like I've gotten past it some mark, right?

But one of the most profound things to explore within myself.

Why didn't I put it that way?

Yeah.

That's, that's very, um, insightful actually.

And I, and I think you're not alone.

I think people, myself included, I don't know where it comes from.

If it comes from our childhood where you fall down and you skin your knee

and you're told, oh, okay, get up.

You're fine, you're fine.

You know, you're, you're good.

And you have to kind of carry on.

Does it, does it start when we're little of not being able to express

sadness or pain or, you know, the sadness of pain that we're experiencing.

. I know very few people that if they're grieving, they're

100% okay with falling apart.

Yeah, they might be after three and a half seconds.

But I think there's always this trepidation of can I be authentically

sad and and ugly crying, you know?

Mm-hmm.

. So I do think you're right.

There is this fear of, of grieving, and yet it's such a powerful

thing and, and we have to do it.

We have to go through it or not even go through it.

We need to walk with it.

Yes.

We need to take it and say, okay, come on.

Let's go.

Let's go and just make it a friend.

You know, that , that friend that shows up unannounced, unexpected,

and you just roll with it.

And we have to, we have to.

Cause otherwise, how do we function?

How do we function?

I think that's a big question I've held and I, I wanna get back to

the film, but I also wanna say this because I think, I think to walk with

grief, and I like this because it's not something that we move through.

It's something that, that we carry with us.

It, it shifts and changes shape at times, but it is ever present.

I think that.

. It's part of what makes us human and something I've explored in my

life is that we cannot selectively numb right to, to numb the pain.

To numb The grief is also to numb the joy.

And that there is this component in exploring the ways that we walk with grief

that allows us greater access to joy.

And I know that I sometimes think about this like some, some universal

seesaw or the ellipse of a planet moving around the sun, right?

There's a parge and an apogee.

And, and together they are what makes life rich.

And in many ways, we can't have one without the other.

And so to embrace grief as a friend and to, to let it in, to allow ourselves

to feel, it gives us access to maybe the breadth of life that is possible.

Yeah.

No, it's, well, well put, well put it, it, it's funny when you, you were talking,

um, I got this image of, and I don't know why I'm sharing this, but it just,

it just came to me, my, my daughter.

is married to a, a cowboy and they live on a ranch and they do, you

know, move back and forth with the cattle up from California to Oregon.

And it's the whole thing as you well known.

Yeah.

And they're, they live way out, pretty remote.

And, um, one of the cows had a baby and the, the mom died or something.

And then there was this, what I think, is it a little le is that what it's

called when they're about a mama?

Or, I can't remember.

Anyway, there was a calf that didn't have a mom, and so they

were having to bottle feed it.

And my grandson was involved in this process of caring for this little calf.

And, you know, as ranchers and cowboys, death and life are, are, you know, the,

the grass is green, the sky is blue.

And it's not taken glibly, but it's taken with this, this is the cycle of life.

This is part of the world and our existence.

And I'll never forget this little calf that my, I think he was five, four or five

at the time, was helping his dad feed the, the calf, the calf ended up not thriving

and getting sicker and sicker and sicker.

And I watched my grandson watch, you know, his first experience of, of kind of loss.

He's, I mean, his kittens have died and, and that sort of thing.

But I'd watched this and I thought, you know, this is kinda a big deal for

a little boy who's been feeding and nurturing this calf, this sweet little

black mamas calf, and the baby's not, the calf's not thriving, and the calf died.

And I watched my grandson at a very young age have this moment of grief.

Mm-hmm.

, and how different it was from the other grief.

The grief that children have, you know, on a day-to-day basis.

And I checked in with myself like, how do I as a grandmother support this young

child who is living a very different life from most children, extremely

different life from most children?

How do I support him?

That it's okay to grieve the loss of this calf that he felt a little

connection to, and also know that it's, that it's okay, you know?

And, and his parents are very supportive and very open to

all of this and are wonderful.

But it was something that, it struck me.

I was sad for him watching him.

And I get emotional thinking about, because you don't want your children

or your grandchildren to suffer at all.

No, but how tender it was to see this little boy.

go through grief, like his first real grieving period.

You know, it's, it's a human right of passage if you'll mm-hmm.

when we, when we have that moment of profound grief.

And I think, and I don't know how he, how grief showed up for him,

but I think that children have a way of navigating things with a, a, an untouched

purity that, that has a lot to teach us as adults of the ways that we've

internalized things differently over time.

Yeah.

They, they do.

And children feed off of our emotions and how we feel about

grief and how we deal with it.

They're, they're, they're watching this, you know, it's no joke.

I, you know, I'll never forget those big welly tears just

falling down in the quivering lip.

And I thought, great.

I'm glad he's able to express that when so many children and so many adults

suppress it and, and don't go there.

Yeah.

I, we've talked a lot about the, what Nicola Naiman calls the

intangible benefits of raising children and farming and ranching communities.

And we talk a lot about farming and ranching on this podcast.

And one of the things that I've noticed as a former city girl living on a

farm is that there is a lot more.

Death here than you might encounter in the city.

Oh, yeah.

And you see a lot more of that breadth of life.

And like you said, you know, your, your son-in-law, like the

grass is green, the sky is blue.

It, there's a, a reverence for it, but it's also, it's also baked in to that.

And I think that when you were talking both in, in the parlor and just now,

you mentioned that a lot of this begins to change when we move from a rural to

an urban environment, that that really changes our relationship to death.

And I think that happens in more ways than just a funeral because we stop, we

stop seeing these, these hard, and I, I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna downplay that

these are hard and heartbreaking events.

You know, we lost a little goat kid last week and to, to touch that body and then

to, to milk her mother afterwards and to, to connect with her mother in that way.

I mean, it, it, it breaks your heart in a million little ways.

And I think it asks you, can you grieve?

Can you be here?

Can you grieve in this, in this too?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, it's interesting.

I, I've learned so much just being around.

My, my daughter and her husband and my grandchildren on the ranch.

You know, I, I never in a million years thought this would be part of my life,

watching the children out there on the 3000 acres looking for tadpoles, and then,

oh, look, there's a, there's a mama that didn't make it and dealing with all that,

or, or pulling a calf out by the feet.

And, and, and he's witnessing these things.

And at first my reaction is, it's too much.

But then I think, you know, it's, he, he, he came into this world.

He chose these people to be his parents.

So it's his karma.

It's his destiny.

But yeah, I mean, ranching and farming is definitely a, a side of life that

is so connected to birth and death.

Mm-hmm.

so connected.

I mean, that's, that's your job.

It's just,

it's, it's, and I, I, it's part of what I love about it.

It's part of what drew me to it too.

I, I've heard you talk about this a little bit, but I would love just to

frame it, since we're here, that the way that we as adults navigate death.

That our, our children are watching us.

And so I love, I love what you said there about giving, giving your grandson that.

Space support if he needed it, but also space to, to experience it.

Because I've thought about that as my husband and I have talked

about having kids and, and how we, how we approach death ourselves

is modeling it for our children.

Mm-hmm.

, well, like I said, it, it, they are, they are taking their cues from us and

you know, I, I think they're extremes.

There are extremes where you can be completely open and honest and

tell your kids every single thing.

And I feel that that's not necessarily beneficial to the child.

I grew up with that.

Yeah.

And then there's the other extreme of hiding everything.

So the, there be, there there's this fine balance of giving a child what

they need at a, an appropriate level because different, a, you know, the

four year old is very different from the six and a half year old, as is the

eight year old from the seven year old.

And, you know, everybody has their age of appropriate emotional development.

Right.

So I was in a meeting yesterday with a family and a, a young

gentleman is, you know, young.

He's, he's still has.

Kids in their thirties and forties.

So he's, he's young.

I consider him young, and he has some very young grandchildren.

And I, and his time is coming.

Um, so I was talking to them and making plans, and I wanted to know about the

grandchildren, and I wanted to know how old they were, because the little ones

are gonna have a completely different relationship to what's going on than

the eight, nine, and 11 year old.

And in a way, I'm not as worried about the one and three year old.

I'm, I'm a little bit and, and not even worried.

That's not what it is.

I want to be aware, conscientious at the eight, nine, and 11 year old,

because they're the ones that have this, they're, they're right there.

They're listening to what the parents are saying they wanna be, they wanna

know, and they're, they're observant.

The little ones, it's just very different.

Mm-hmm.

, um, they're picking up intuitively and, and what the adults are going through

emotionally, and that does affect them.

But I think our, our take, our read on the situation is very important.

. I had one family where the husband was gonna keep the, the wife at home.

And she was a, also a young woman.

She was in her early sixties, young, that's young to me.

Um, she passed away.

She was very connected to her, to her grandchildren.

And the daughter-in-law, I think was horrified to, to consider

the fact that the husband was gonna have the body at home.

She was horrified about this, and I've told this story before.

She didn't wanna come in.

She was terrified.

She didn't want the grandchild in the house.

It was a, it was a big thing.

I don't remember exactly the details of what shifted, but she came into

the house after we had made it very beautiful, and she was okay.

It took her, you know, a few hours to kind of feel comfortable with

it, but once she did, she was fine.

The, the grandson who was extremely connected to his

grandmother wanted to come in.

He couldn't understand what was going on.

So she came to me and said, what do I do?

And I said, just let him in.

You know, just let him in.

Don't, don't make a big deal about it.

Just let him in.

And, and it's okay.

He came in, marched right up to the casket, looked in, said hi,

grandma, and then wanted, you know, a cookie or something.

So it, we, we watched the situation and, and he was fine with it.

He was okay with.

And I got him involved with flowers and, and doing things and drawing pictures.

And the more, the more we can somehow make it less of a emotional heavy

burden for the child, the better.

It's not to deny it or say it doesn't exist, but it is part of life.

And if we can, if the death is, if, if it's a, what I call an, an easy death,

the kind where somebody might be on hospice for a while or they know it's

coming and it's expected, then we have a, an opportunity to teach our children

that, that yes, this is part of life.

It can be a little bit more difficult actually when it's a

sudden death or a tragic death and everybody's thrown off guard.

And, and that's where it's, it can be a real challenge.

And that's, that is also an opportunity.

But the circumstances can be a little bit different.

Yeah.

It, it's a balancing act.

Yeah.

It's a balancing act.

Ok.

But even, even with animals and pets, we can, we have an opportunity to,

to start setting up the framework for how our children experience death.

Let them be involved, let them draw pictures to help dig the grave,

do the flowers, and yeah, it.

I think it's a balancing act for us as adults too.

I mean, I, I think in many ways all of those things can be equally applied to, to

us as adults, as we, as we navigate a what sometimes feels like a, a new relationship

with death for those of us that, that desire to, to change the way that, that

our narrative around death was growing up.

Right.

Like that there is, there is sort of a, a confused five-year-old in us too, that,

that maybe can be nurtured by, by some of those same practices and by treating

ourselves in a, in a similar manner.

Yeah.

And I've often wondered, okay, over the course of the generations and

the decades and, and you know, all that has, and have we dealt with it

differently vis-a-vis children, you know?

And I think, I think probably we have, because I don't know, I, I, I

think we have, because I look at stuff today and people are just freaked out.

They're just terrified of death.

And I have my own feelings and theories about how, you know, media

has taken it and just feel day with it.

I'd be curious to hear a little bit about that because I think, I

think not only do we have, we have a relationship to our dead, but we

also have this relationship to death.

And I do, I do think it's changed.

We talk, I talk about this a lot on the podcast.

I do think it's changed and I'm curious how you feel that it has, has shifted

and how media has influenced that shift.

Oh yeah.

Well, , every year when I see the big Halloween mega stores, you know, come

and get your costume and stuff, that's, I believe a result of people really

getting into the gory and how, and I'm not knocking this, you know, I'm good.

I don't want anybody to think that I'm like anti.

But I do think it's kind of a curious observation of, okay, we didn't

have that, oh, I dunno, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, maybe we did.

But I think our fascination with zombies and vampires and all that

stuff has come about because since, since since television and film.

Yeah.

And, and maybe it's because we don't know about death and it's this mystery.

We're able to take it and somehow create a story around it to

deal with it, you know, in, in.

Decades, decades, decades past.

We had stories.

We had ghost stories around fire.

We had different lore and different things always, you know,

about death and things as well.

But it, now we've taken it to an extreme that is, I think,

just really blood and gore.

Mm-hmm.

, um, we've lost some of that mystical, sacred stuff that, you know, people

were sharing around the fire.

Hmm.

So, I think media has blown it up.

People love it and are interested in it.

You know, I, I don't, I don't remember people doing haunted houses on my

block when I was a little girl.

The only haunted house I knew was at Disneyland, and I loved it.

? . But it's just gone crazy, you

know?

. Do you think, and, and I might be totally off base here, but I feel like anytime

we tuck something away and we hide it, we create this sort of curiosity.

Right?

And I think in hiding it, we create an almost taboo around it.

Yeah.

And this is the, this is the only thing that I can compare it to.

And in that, that taboo, we, we wanna peek and we wanna, we wanna look and

we wanna see what's beyond the curtain.

And I think in that, this sort of caricature of, of whatever we've

tucked away, comes into society where, where it is no longer death, this

sacred and reverent space where, where we wanna tell stories, but almost

a caricature of, of death because of the ways that it's been hidden.

Yeah,

absolutely.

Absolutely.

And it's not to say that there was no fear around death, um, in other

times, uh, because I, but I, but I think it's the mystery factor might

have played more of a role in it.

And then of course, during Victorian times, you know, that was a whole

field day of sentimentality and elegance and romanticism and all

this stuff around death, which.

Frankly I'm fascinated and, and intrigued by and kind of a little like, Ooh, how

pretty is that black fan with the Ebo?

You know?

But they really took, they took it to a level that might have, I don't

know cuz I'm not a, an anthropologist or anything, but maybe that was sort

of the beginning, the spurring on of let's take this thing that happens to

all of us and it went from beautiful sort of romanticizing, tragic, oh whoa

is me and tear catchers and all that.

And it maybe it just got ugly.

Hmm.

To where we are now where it's big box stores selling plastic.

Hearts, but knives strewn in them.

You know, I, I dunno, um, I'm sure somebody out there has done some

research on the metamorphosis of Gore

. Kate: Yeah.

Oh, I'd be very interested to see that.

I, I just, because I'm interested in how, how it, it has just shifted over

the course of society and, and, and I think, you know, what drew me into

a lot of the work I do today is, is kind of looking at what's behind that

curtain, sort of that curiosity of, of wanting to explore it, uh, beyond

its taboo, beyond its caricature.

Right.

Well, and, and then also I'm thinking, okay, people like, you know, Edgar

Allen Poe and Mary Shelly, I mean, they, they, they were writing things

that were incredibly dark and gory and, but still there was a beauty about it.

Mm-hmm.

, I mean, when I read Edgar Allen Poe is dark and chilling as it

is, there's a beauty about it.

Mm-hmm.

, I don't think things are beautiful anymore.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think, I think for me, that beauty often comes in the form of reverence.

And I think perhaps we have lost some of that reverence, right.

That, that when you read Frankenstein, there's a beautiful

reverence for, for that.

And there is still a space of connection.

That there is a groundedness to it.

And it, it is almost as if throughout this metamorphosis as you called it,

we've become untethered from, from a groundedness, a rootedness in, in that, in

what you put forth at the beginning, which is that there is a sacred aspect to death.

Right.

And, and the question of of why do we do things?

You know, I, I think we forget why something was done.

Hmm.

Goes back to what you were talking about before.

We've, we've come so far from things that we forget, you know, we forget Yeah.

Why

we do things.

I think within that, I, I'd love to talk a little bit about what it is

possible to do when one of our loved ones dies and, and, you know, to come

back to that, that why that raison detra and to explore what we might do.

And I think throughout this process, like I told you, some of what I

was most surprised by was I just had no idea what was possible and,

yeah.

Well, each, first of all, I mean, I, I try to tell families that have

an ideal, have the ideal picture of what you want to do, knowing.

, that one has to be flexible.

You can make plans, you can have a vision, you can have a picture, an

image of what you want, and try to try to hold that or have your loved ones

or your community do that for you.

But I think there also has to be a flexibility within that because things

change and circumstances come up.

So I, I think that that's important today.

I mean, right, right now, as far as I know, unless something's changed in

the last little bit, you, you can care for a loved one in, in all your states.

You can do, you can, you can bathe and dress and be pretty hands on.

That being said, there are some states where you have to get the help of

a funeral director on things like transportation and paperwork and things.

So I'm making sort of a generalization.

But wherever you are, and for your viewers that are watching this, and

listeners, if you want to care for a loved one, I think it really starts with

doing your research and where you are.

But if you have an idea of what you want, say, yeah, I want to do this,

then, then that's your starting point.

You say, okay, how can I do this?

And you do your.

But it is legal to care for your own loved one in any state.

And embalming is not required.

If anybody tells you that embalming is required.

That's just, that's just not the case.

There might be some instances if you're going across state lines and being put on

an airplane or something, but even then it may not be necessary because there

are ways that you can get around that.

So that's, that's kind of an a little extreme side note.

But if you do your homework and there are plenty of books and resources out

there, you can plan this and you can do this and just like a birth, you're

not gonna just have a baby at home.

Actually, I accidentally did, so I'm not gonna Yeah, no, I

was on my way to the hospital.

But if you're calling on having a baby at home, you're not just gonna wing it.

You're gonna get your wash gloves and your, your midwife is gonna

give you a whole list of stuff that you do to get ready for that.

So the same thing with the death, being thoughtful about it and thinking about it.

There are, there are a few.

Schools of thought around it as well.

There's some people who are adamant about doing everything as much

as they can themselves and not using a funeral director at all.

And, and you can do that, but again, you know, you gotta strategize and

figure it out and, and work with that.

Then there's also the school of thought where you can find a funeral home or a

funeral director that's a smaller family owned one, not a corporate owned one.

Yes, and I 14% as of I think 2016 are are corporate.

It, it falls under one, one entity, s c i and they have a $4 billion market cap.

I was, I mean, I was just, I was just really struck by that.

Yeah.

And it's, it's getting worse.

Yeah.

So if you, if you find a funeral home that's a local mon PA one, you

can talk to them and go to them and say, Hey, this is what I wanna do.

This is what we're planning on doing.

Can you help us with filing the death certificate?

Can you help us with the transport?

Or, I wanna transport, but do I need a transport permit?

Even though there's a lot of dubious funeral directors out there, there are

also some really good ones out there.

There's some really good ones out there.

So instead of just putting them all in a category of evil people, I I, I,

I don't think that that's wise to do.

I think we have to come together and we have to say, look,

we've gotta work together.

The nature of death care is changing.

Mm-hmm.

. So we can either be kind of jerks about it and self-righteous and da da da, or

we can say, no, we need to figure this out because people need more options.

Yes.

And so one of the things I've learned is that there is no black and white thinking.

And the more that we can approach people with, with kindness and, and hoping for

good intentions, the better that this is a collaboration, hopefully that there,

maybe I'll know and we can get some into the, the funeral industry, but I,

my hope is that there's, there can be a sense of collaboration moving forward.

Yeah.

And the other thing too, I, I think that people need to know, and

this is really important, is that there's certain levels and degrees

of what you can do if you want.

Mm-hmm.

. So maybe you don't want to take care of the body, but you want

the body home for 72 hours.

Okay.

So that's where you call your mom, pop funeral home and

say, , can you deal with the body?

No.

Embalming.

We wanna you dress 'em, you clean 'em, whatever, put 'em in the casket,

but then bring them back home.

Okay.

So that's, that's one way.

Mm-hmm.

You know, it's just a matter of creative thinking and not everybody,

you don't, you don't have to do it all.

If you're exhausted and you've just been caring for a loved one who's been

terminal, there are times where people say, yeah, I was gonna do that home thing.

It sounded really great, but I'm too flip and tired right now.

I can't, I can't handle it.

Yeah.

So I think we have to, instead of being self-righteous about it, we

need to be practical and we need to be thoughtful, and we need

to be, let's do the best we can.

Yeah.

I know that, that really struck me in watching in the parlor and

the conversation that my husband and I had over the last couple

of weeks in, in lead up to this episode was around our own wishes.

Not just, not just for what we want when we die, but also what we want for, for

whoever is living and wanting that, that I have a couple of, a couple of firm wishes,

but my biggest wish is that it feels.

It feel like, like something that the, the people that survive me can manage mm-hmm.

and, and that there is no perfect picture.

And oftentimes we don't know until we're in it what we feel capable of holding.

And I was struck and actually really grateful in the, in the film there's

a woman during, I think it's during Ron's death, and is sure that she

feels that she wants to participate in every, and every piece of caring for

the body afterwards and after he dies, realizes that that's not something

that she feels that she can hold.

And I, I really liked seeing that there, the breadth of experience and feelings

towards being able to, to be there with

it.

Yeah.

I, I'm glad you brought that up.

Um, that was, that particular woman has been talked about many

times in, in different circles and workshops and screenings and things.

And, and I think that bringing that up is so, so critical because

you, it's, it's nothing to be ashamed about if you can't do it.

And I fear that in our culture of wanting to be.

You know, I guess I keep thinking of the word self-righteous or mm-hmm.

super aggressive or, or whatever.

Yes, aggressive isn't the right word, but not everybody can

do it, and it's really okay.

Yes.

Yes.

And I've, I've had to shift, it's not that I've had to, but I have shifted

my thoughts about some of this work.

I mean, I'm, I've been doing this for close to 40 years now.

Mm.

And there's some things that I'm realizing, and I'm, I, I feel

compelled to say it, that yes, caring for the body is really

critical and important and wonderful and, you know, we do what we can.

Right.

And then there's the varying degrees of, of how involved a person can be.

But what I've learned through my own experience of experience of, of

losing loved ones is that it's what happens after, you know, we're so

focused on the physical, but there's something that happens after that.

I think we need to, to hold onto and pay attention to, you know,

there's a whole nother realm.

And not to get to Woo or whatever, go for it.

It's not about that.

And, and to, to put it in real words or for people to understand.

And I, and I know this might be a little crass, but you know,

when I saw the film Cocoa mm-hmm.

Pixar film, Pixar did it, I thought, okay, this is, this is a

perfect way for people to see this film and watch this great film.

It's fun film, beautiful film.

And I said, yeah, this is great.

This is perfect timing right now.

Because in a way, the message and the story of what other cultures have

been doing forever and will continue to do, we need to be doing this too.

Yeah.

You know, this is not something that is just made up in my opinion.

Mm-hmm.

. So, and I dunno if, if I'm making sense, but basically I, I think we

have work to do still after everything is tidy up, said and done in the

burial and cremation, it's like, okay, now our work really needs to begin.

Yes.

And I, I, oh, I have, I have a lot of different questions and I, I want to

frame this out first, that most of what we're talking about is the American.

Way of death, as Jessica Mitford calls it, that this is not, that, this is

not the global trend of how funerals happen, of how we care for our dead.

That this is, is fairly unique in our American point of view.

And, and so I, I think that's worth, that's worth noting.

Yeah.

But you know, what you said there, and I, I wanna explore it a little bit because

I wanna be clear on if you were, and I think I'm sure it's both, if you were

speaking about what happens after two Our Dead and what that 72 hours leads into, or

what happens after that 72 hours for us.

And I know that one way that I've heard you speak about this, that I think is

so beautiful is that, you know, the funeral is just the beginning of the

relationship that we can have with our loved ones that have, have passed

another really big, juicy question and conversation.

you know, when, when I lost my family members, my brother and his daughter, um,

or my brother, I should say, not my, yeah.

When my brother passed away and his daughter, you know, it, it

shattered the family to the.

obviously, and deaths like this that are sudden, unforeseen,

shatter every family to the core.

I mean, that's just something we all are going to share forever

and ever, the whole planet.

What I needed to figure out shortly after was, okay, I need to, I need to somehow,

because of my belief system and how I was raised and the philosophy that my parents,

um, practiced in the home, I had to figure out really fast, how do I change or not

change, but nurture this new relationship that I, that I need to have with my

brother who's no longer physically here.

Hmm.

And that was profound for me because it wasn't just those first 72 hours, it was

became a ritual and has become a ritual, a daily ritual, if not daily then, you know,

many times a week ritual and the ritual of, and not just my brother, but my niece

as well, and my father and my friends and my, my aunt, and you know, anybody that

I cared about to include them, to really include them still in my consciousness.

And to not forget them.

And that's, you know, , when we forget those people that we love,

then we, we forget them and they, they, they move further away.

So I felt that I had this sense of duty and obligation and desire to

stay connected, not in a sentimental longing, poor me kind of way.

But I hear you.

I see you, you know?

Yeah.

I want to be connected with you.

How do I navigate this new relationship of medi through meditation, through

prayer, through thought, through song, through quiet, contemplative times.

But I need to take, take what I'm experiencing and, and give it to

you in such a way that it will help keep this connection going.

And, you know, people might laugh at that and think it's crazy, but it sure helped

my grief and it continues to help my grief when I shifted the nature of the relat.

Because when I forget about somebody and I have for forgot, forgotten

about people, and then I go, oh gosh.

Wow.

But the, the moment I start including them into my thoughts and my time of,

of doing something lovely, like a walk or whatever, I feel instantly more

connected and I don't feel as sad.

And not to say that's being sad is a bad thing, but I feel more full.

I feel a sense of this part of me being full of them, thus making me feel

connected and like, okay, I, I know that it's hard to articulate, but it

is something that I feel has helped on my journey and my process of grief.

And I know other cultures, , they've been doing it for a long, long time.

Mm-hmm.

. Yeah.

And it's interesting to see how other cultures handle their grief

and the dead and it's just, you know, I think there's something to it.

Yeah.

There's a lot that I think we can learn.

And I, I think you articulated that beautifully because what struck me

the first time I heard you say that was that I had never considered,

and, and, uh, I mean this will sound however it sounds, It feels like

death is the end to a relationship.

And I think that from, from my worldview or wherever I was coming from

and, and what I've seen, well, it's, it's the ending of a relationship.

And, and while it might be the ending of, of that relationship here in the

physical plane, it is the beginning of a different phase of relationship.

And I was really struck by that because when you talk about staying

connected, I think about the part of me that wants to avoid grief

that we talked about earlier, right?

That, that fear of grief.

And I think oftentimes in that fear for myself, I have

disconnected from that relationship.

And the her mission that you gave me, just, just in reframing my

thoughts to go into and to nurture and foster that connection and to let

in the richness and the breadth of experience that is possible in carrying

that on through, through ritual, through whatever, whatever practice

gives you that sense of connection was, was a really beautiful gift.

Well, it, it's, I, I thank you for saying.

. I think it's so beautiful when people practice it because all of a sudden

the world opens up in a different way and little gifts start showing

up in crazy ways that make it fun.

And, and, and, and again, we go back to this sort of joy, fun laughter.

You know, as I'm, I'm just thinking about one day I'll curse my brother,

you know, and tell him to leap off because I'm having to deal with

his dog that I inherited that just, you know, did something horrible.

And I'm like, ah, so, and then the next day, you know, they're two blossoms that

are blooming in the middle of winter.

And I'm thinking, wow, how did you know?

How did that happen?

That's so random.

And the timing and these, all these little stories that, that if you pay

attention and if you're aware of it's, they're kind of look at them as little

gifts, some little treats that are coming from the spiritual world or

whatever, that, that just sits how I cope and a lot of other people do as well.

Yes.

Yes.

I, that

is, When I think I'm going crazy, go.

No, no, no, no, you're fine.

You're fine.

Cause Yeah, you're fine.

. Kate: No, I think that, I think

that and I, I think it's a, a really beautiful, a really beautiful thing

to invite people to, to share in, in the relationship that we can have.

And, and I think I wanted to hold space for that too.

You said this word share that when you were talking about deaths that are

unexpected, that, that we, we share, you know, the world over e every culture

shares in how that shatters every, everyone that, that knew that person.

And I think that one of the things that draws me into having these conversations

around death is that it is something that we all share in, in a world where it feels

like maybe we don't share much at times.

I think that without a doubt, we, we share this, we share, we share death.

We, we share grief.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it's, it's the same, it's the same, you know, reading some of the reports

coming from about the earthquake and Syria and Turkey and, and all that, and seeing

some of those pictures and listening to some of the, the reports and the women.

Men and women talking about horrific things.

I always, always, and whether it's that tragic story or, or somebody else's

tragic story, I always check in with myself and say, is there grief the same?

Oh yes it is because we're human, but because they might

be in a different language.

I have to pause for a minute and that's my own inability to be evolved, I guess.

But I always have to stop and go.

Is it the same with this sort of wondering of, of course it's the same

just because they're in a speaking another language or dealt with a different

kind of trauma, they are in anguish.

Mm-hmm.

. And we share that.

We share anguish, we share pain and you know, everybody's level is different,

but it, it, again, it's an emotion that we collectively, it, it sucks.

yes,

this is lame, but , we're gonna get through it, we're gonna move through it.

And then you hear stories, people who have gone through just one

horrific thing after another, and they keep going and they keep going.

And I ask myself, how do they do that?

What is it in our human nature that that gets us up to go?

And you know that, then that spins off to a whole nother thing.

But I, but I wanted to go back to something that we were talking

about before, about the, the three days and, or the 72 hours.

So people wonder, well, why 72 hours?

Or why, you know, what, what it is, what is it about these 72 hours?

And it can be 48 hours, it can be 72 hours.

It can be, you know, it's 36, whatever you want.

There's no hard fasting rule.

But the 72 hours seems to be this, this sacred time where there's stuff going

on in the spiritual world, there's stuff going on in the physical world.

There's stuff going on in the emotional world for the people around.

And the three day time seems to be this perfectly formed time capsule

where all this stuff is happening.

And then after those 72 hours, when that 72, 73 hour point comes, there's like a

little opening, a little door, a little window of, okay, something is shifting now

there's something different happening now.

I see it all the time.

Every family, it's, it's the same feeling of now is the time when a

ritual should start, or the next phase of this process should.

Again, other cultures have been doing it this way.

I think it's this unspoken, mysterious thing that we don't

know about, but we feel it.

And for people who come to a vigil, many people that I've talked to who

have experienced going to a three day, 72 hour vigil, they come in and they

experience something that later on when they think about that vigil and that

experience that they had there next to the, the person who's died, they

then get this feeling of wonderment.

And it was beautiful.

And it was peaceful.

And I just, I dunno what it was.

It was really terrific.

And then they start thinking about the person who's died and then they

start thinking and remembering.

So that, so my point is, oftentimes those vigils can be a stepping off

point to start thinking about the person who is gone in a different way.

Mm-hmm.

And to, you know, maybe that could be the touchstone of, of creating

that new relationship in a new way.

So many times we, we go to these conventional funerals.

Somebody gets up and then people go on and on and they're talking and, and there

was no time between the person's death.

And when you got to the funeral, there's just this void of weird feelings.

You get to the funeral, you da da, da, da, and then you have a

nice potluck, whatever, and then you go to the burial site berry,

or they go off to the cremation.

And oftentimes there's sort of this, now what do we do?

What?

Yeah, what do we do?

There's this empty feeling, so if you can have some time to see the

body, to spend time with the body to sing or read or laugh or whatever

you wanna do, play music and just give yourself a little bit of time.

It then is the beginning of what you could call the new relationship.

It's, it's the new chapter, it's opening something up to something

different, and that's how I see it.

Mm-hmm.

And I could be full of baloney, but , I've been doing it a long time and I've seen it

happen.

I love that you mentioned the magic of something that we might not

understand, that there's the 72 hour, something about that timeframe that.

something indescribable happens at the end that we can't tease out.

And, uh, one of the things I love on this podcast when they come up are

those things that we can't understand and that we feel all the same.

I, as you were talking, I was thinking about Jared's story in the

film and that there was something for me that really spoke to that

vigil and that opportunity to be in celebration of him during that space.

And also to, to share in, in the grief of a surprise death and to sing and

to make music and to be together and to, to honor the relationship that

that was, and, and create a space for the, the new relationship to come in.

And I think that it was so well articulated by his loved ones and it,

it really struck me in that story, particularly that aspect of the vigil

and just how missing that has been from any experience I've ever had with death.

And I, I, I think when you say that there's this, we just kind of appear

at the funeral and, and then there's a burial and there's no, there's no

ritual, there's no right of passage.

There's, there's no connection.

It it.

, it's a little, little processed to, to borrow that word from earlier.

It's a little processed.

It's a, it's a quick meal on the go when we really need, uh, a, a ritualized

feast.

Yeah, that's perfect.

A ritualized feast.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and especially for teenagers.

Yeah.

You know, oh my God.

I, and, and, and in that particular case, those kids needed something.

And every time I have worked with a family who has lost a young

person, those teenagers need it.

And they might be, because they're, their, their world is so emotionally rich.

anyway, with all of them, , it's like, yeah.

They're just in the thick of it.

So they give it to them.

Let them see, let them experience, let them, you know,

process and have that time.

And it's magical.

What comes out from, from that, it's just, it's overwhelming.

It's overwhelming that there, there's a surge and a source of, of, I don't

even know what the right word is.

You know, when, when young people, and I mean, you know, 20 down to 12,

when they're confronted head on with something as profound as a death of

a, of a classmate or you know, friend, it takes them to places that are, are

incredibly deep and they come through.

It changed that, that's simple to say because we all go through that.

But there's something about teenagers that it's, it's more concentrated.

Mm-hmm.

, some can't handle it and sadly don't have the support or the

faculties to process stuff.

But I'll, I will say that the, the instances where that I've been

involved with and have seen, it's profoundly incredible what these

kids can rise up to the, the strength that they have in them to, uh, to

face and meet death in a healthy way.

Hmm.

You know, every teenager, as far as I'm concerned, needs to

go work on a ranch or a farm.

Mm-hmm.

for a year.

, Kate: I agree with

that.

Right.

Like, put your phone down, put your electronics down, and go get your hands

dirty and deal with life and, uh mm.

Yes.

Yeah.

And watch that little seed go from nothing.

Put a stack into something that will nourish your body.

Yeah.

And, and sadly, we're, we're losing that whole

thing.

It's such a fertile time, I think, for, for brain development at a,

at a purely scientific level, but I think also at an emotional level.

And it's fertile, I think, in, it's, it's chaos of hormones and everything.

I mean, that depth of feeling I, when I think about being a teenager, I

mean, everything is so, it's so big.

The feelings aren't very, they're so big in the most beautiful way, in a good way.

I'm not, I I, I love teenagers.

Um, and I think in that, the amount of, hmm, I mean, in any fertile space, right?

Like you plant to seed and, and what can grow is really truly amazing.

And, and so I think it's an important space to let kids

experience this if, if they're, if they're able to step into that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hum hum.

Funerals, home vigils for teenagers and parents who have lost a child.

Mm-hmm.

tho those two groups, I think benefit.

Yeah.

Exponentially.

I mean, it, it, it's just huge how being more hands-on can help.

Mm-hmm.

Again, that's just me.

I'm not a psychologist, but that's what I have witnessed.

Yeah.

And, um, un until I'm, until I see otherwise, I, I, I can't be swayed.

I

was struck with the film of, you know, when you say hands on, we've come

so far away from, from touching the dead.

And I think that there is fear there and I think that, you know,

we covered a little bit earlier that maybe there's some, some of the ways

that we've thought about cleanliness, that we've thought about about this

throughout time has really shifted that.

But how much laying hands on, and I think in Julie's story, you see

so much hands on and, and not just of her body after she has died, but

also in the process of her death.

And I think that touch, right touch is.

Touches something that we all experience as something that

has an incredible power to heal.

And you know, I think that we see this in the sort of epidemic of loneliness

that is being experienced in this country amongst, especially the elderly,

that that touch really changes us.

It is, it is a part of, of how we receive information from our outside

world, how we have this exchange of microbiome and of emotions and

this transmission of love maybe.

And in Julie's story to watch the way that she is touched

throughout her death process.

And then the way that her, her body is touched.

And I was very touched by that, by her willingness to share this

with, with us as viewers, right?

Her willingness to share how her body is being touched after death and

how that is transformative for her.

She was a remarkable woman.

Truly.

Yeah.

It, it comes through the screen in a, in a big way.

And I think that I know for myself, and I'll only speak for myself in

this podcast, that touching the dead.

I think that there's, there's some fear there, right?

There's some fear of, of what that means, of what a dead body is.

And I've probably experienced this more than a lot of people with animal bodies.

This opportunity to, to touch animal bodies in death and to,

you know, there's a beautiful woman that we had on this podcast.

I actually really wanna send you a piece of her writing when we're done here.

Her name is Tara Couture and she writes about death as an expansion

that we think of it as this end point.

But there is really this opportunity to see it and to feel it and to

experience it as an expansion.

And I think it was, I think about this, I don't know if you've ever listened

to Don Miguel Ruiz who went the Four Agreements and Toltech Traditions.

I heard an interview with him once and he talked about death in this way of like

taking a off, a too tight pair of pants.

I haven't heard that.

I don't . That's so good.

And it was so good.

And just a little silly and just sort of a delicious framing.

And yeah, and I think in watching the way.

The way that touch can transform and that we can, we can

actually touch that experience.

Something that we, we can't touch, right?

We can't touch death.

We can't touch this thing that lives beyond the veil.

But to

be touched in that.

But now every time we take off our pants, that's opportunity

to think about the dead.

Right?

, take those mamas

. Kate: I love that.

I love that.

Attaching it.

Attaching a ritual to something.

Why not like that?

And that delicious feeling at the end of the day when you've been wearing,

when you've been wearing a tight pair of pants and it just feels the only

thing you want is to take it off.

or other garments.

Mm-hmm.

that are restricting us

I, oh, there's so many, there's so many things that I have for you.

I, I love that we've, we've kind of explored how we can, how we

can participate in this ritual of funeral, um, in different ways.

And, and that it's scalable too.

And I, I really wanna leave that as a really salient

point, uh, that it's scalable.

That there are different pieces to this.

That there's, there's no, there's no right or wrong or must or should that, that

you can touch whatever piece feels, feels tenable to you, and that it's possible.

And that there are resources out there to bring, to bring this home.

There, there, and there are, there are plenty of resources now and,

and even, you know, some people who have the intuitive feeling of, I didn't

want to have the body taken away yet.

Hmm.

Don't, you don't have to wait, wait 12 hours.

You know, I think people have back to the touch thing, which then

goes to smell or decomposition.

People have this immediate feeling that, oh my God, the

body's gonna start decomposing and smelling and it's this thing.

Well, it's like, yeah, yeah, no, no, no, no.

Of course the body starts decomposing, but it, it's not this sudden horrific thing.

Mm-hmm.

, it, it can be under.

some circumstances.

Mm-hmm.

. But if you want to keep a body for 24 hours, just turn the heat off.

You know, light a candle.

Just do, do some things that intuitively feel okay.

Mm-hmm.

. And just stop for a minute.

Take a deep breath and know that the world still continues on your emotional world.

Comes to screeching halt for a minute, but know that it's okay to just slow down for

a second and be present with that person.

The other thing as well, one another thing to say is about touch is when I go into a

home or a place where I'm gonna going to guide a family into this process, I always

go to their feet and to their ankles.

And I just put my hands on the ankles or the feet because that's

how I feel like can connect with.

Hmm.

And I just hold their feet and try to thank them internally and

to thank them for allowing me the opportunity to be present.

And it's, I, I don't, it's just what I do.

And it's, some people are afraid.

To touch a body, then maybe just touching the ankle over a blanket or something,

just in a very calming way in that sort of maternal way that maybe our

moms did when we weren't feeling well.

Hmm.

And take it slow.

Hmm.

You brought up two things there that I think are so incredible,

and one is, I mean, one is intuition to follow that intuition.

Yeah.

And that oftentimes we have intuitive needs and desires in

these, in these spaces that, that we can, we can lean into.

And I, I think that having some of this knowledge, right, that I didn't,

I didn't have before this interview, that of what is possible, opens up that

opportunity to lean into a more intuitive space when, when people that we love

die and to be with them in that way.

I, I'm touched by your touching feet, I think.

, curiously enough.

I think we, we often think about hands as the way that we touch the

world, but I always think about feet as the way that the world touches us.

Right.

That, that, that is our connection point as we walk across the

earth and souls of the feet.

Right?

Like there's, there's something there about, about our own soul, for me anyway.

No, that's a good picture.

I like that.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Do you have any words to say about making these plans, you know, for

people that might want to explore making these plans prior to death?

Either, either they know that their time is coming to an end or want to

have these, these plans in place.

Yeah.

They, they're, they're different things that one can do

depending upon where you live.

You can contact an organization, the National Home Funeral Alliance.

Mm-hmm.

, and you can go, they have a directory.

Mm-hmm.

, and you can look and see if there's somebody in your state, in your

town close by that might be able to help you with planning something.

There are definitely a lot of books out there that one can

read to start the convers.

You can call there, there might be a, a home funeral guide in another state.

For instance, people will call me from other states and then

I will work with them remotely.

Mm-hmm.

, you can talk to your local funeral director that's family owned, uh,

to say, this is what we wanna do.

Can we get some help?

So, but, but I think the important thing is, is to really sit down with your family

members or your community or whomever is in your circle, and write it down

and say, this is what's important to me.

This is really meaningful to me.

And, you know, if you really want it, just, just go for it.

Um, and find the right people that will help you.

And again, it, things may change a little bit, but if you can

really hold that vision and picture and write it down, do it.

Yeah.

And, and nobody needs to prepay for anything or pre-plan or, you know,

like do any pre-need stuff that if anybody's asking for money upfront

to, uh, do like a pre-need thing.

Yeah.

No, that's, that's not something that I would necessarily do.

That's a whole nother conversation.

There's so many different threads and angles, but writing stuff.

Maybe starting a little savings account so you can put some money in there

for the people that are gonna need dry ice or flowers or a casket, whatever.

Or you get somebody to build a casket for you.

There's, there's just so much you can do.

Interesting.

This, this last week I had 2, 2, 3 families that I was meeting and

planning with them and getting things lined up and, and talking

to them about what they can do.

And we, we make a, we write it all out on paper.

We come up with a plan.

I go and look at their house to see where the best place would be.

They all on their own accord decided that they wanted to invite their families over

to watch the film, to watch the Parlo.

And I said, that's a great idea.

That's perfect, because so many people don't understand what a home funeral is.

Yeah.

A lot of people think that a home funeral is hospice, and

it's like, yeah, no, no, no, no.

This is, they're, they're so radically different.

We're not even in the same , ballpark . They don't, or they think it's euthanasia

or they, they think it's something else.

So, um, they opt.

And again, this is not a plug for my film it, but, but that was,

it should plug your film too.

It should be.

Thank you.

That was a way for them to show family.

What do you, what, what's the home funeral?

What do you mean about that?

They, they can't quite wrap their brain around it, so they're showing the family,

the film, and I'm gonna go over and answer questions and, and talk to them about

it so that they have an understanding of, of what it actually means.

And maybe home funeral should really, I'm, I, many of us in the movement

are trying to rephrase it as a family directed funeral or community

directed, community led body care.

There, there are different ways that we're, we're all trying

to get on the same page to call it what it, what it really is.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, it sounds like over the course of, you said that you had been doing

this for 40 years, which is just, no, no.

Small thing.

And how has it, how has it changed?

Like how has this changed?

Do you think that this is something that people are beginning to understand,

especially if we can create language that is more descriptive or, or leads

people into it a little, a little.

Yeah, it's changed a lot just in the last few years.

I mean, back in the eighties.

Yeah, the early eighties when some of us were starting this, or not starting this,

doing it after Lisa Carlson's book came out and others and Nancy Jewel Poor, the,

you know, there were many people, or not many, but a few people in the movement

that were doing this, and I happened to be one of them here in California.

It, it's, there were just a handful of us doing this.

So now in the last 10 years, the last eight years, it's become much

more, not, well, maybe I shouldn't say much more, but I'm running into

more people that have heard about it.

Whereas before, nobody, nobody knew about it.

But there have been a lot of articles and podcasts and people talking about

it and writing books and doing trainings and workshops that it's very slowly

becoming part of the, the end of life lexicon and, and people are, you

know, sort of curious about it still.

I would say 80% of the people that I talk to don't know about it, but it's,

it's getting, it's getting better and they're way more people now doing it.

Yeah.

And there's still, you know, even within the movement

there's differences and styles.

Of course.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that's, that's within any movement.

There's, there's a little bit, there's a little bit of

difference in, in everything.

I wanna touch on something you said, because I have to bring this up and

you, you talked about the language that we use, you know, home funeral or, or

community led funeral, or family led body care, whatever, whatever that is.

And one of the things that I was really struck in reading Jessica Milford's book

was how the language that we use around.

is shaped.

And, and I, I don't know if you remember this, let me pull this up.

She kind of goes over the ways that language has changed over the years,

that the undertaker became the funeral director, that the coffin became the

casket, that the flowers became a floral tribute, that corpses became

loved ones, and then became just Mr.

Jones, or, or, or Mrs.

Jones, uh, exclusively, um, that ashes became cremains and

that to die became expired.

And, and this sort of crafting of language that maybe from my lens takes

us away and not connects us back too.

But I think there are a lot of different ways to look at it.

And I I was curious to get your take on that.

It, it's interesting because even now, today, when I'm talking to a family,

I, I stop and go, did I just say that?

Was that the right thing to say?

It?

It's been so ingrained in us that God forbid you should call cremains ashes.

Right?

Well, the fact of the matter is they're ashes, right?

They're ashes.

Yes.