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Why we need to end things
Episode 1275th March 2024 • The Happy Entrepreneur • The Happy Startup School
00:00:00 00:55:45

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“Everything has a time to burn because it invites new life.”

During his talk at Summercamp 2022, Ben Johnson shared his thoughts on the importance of creative destruction. Whether you’re talking about corporate innovation, the eventual demise of capitalism, or the maintenance of an ecological system, old things need to die in order for new things to live.

In 2015, Laurence and Carlos experienced their own phase of creative destruction. They’d been simultaneously running both the Happy Startup School and their digital agency for 3 years and in order for one of them to thrive, the other had to die.

They had to stop doing things the way they’d always been doing them.

And so, in June that year, after coming back from their Alptitude mountain retreat, they started to wind down the agency. T’hey had 5 staff at the time and many active clients. This made the ending challenging, but it had to be done.

Since then, Laurence and Carlos have hosted six more Summercamps, over 10 international retreats and run dozens of courses, programmes, and micro events. They’ve started podcasts, coached people one-to-one, spoken at events on four different continents and grown a global online community of purpose-driven entrepreneurs and professionals.

Ending the agency gave them more time, energy and headspace to focus on and grow the Happy Startup School. It hasn’t been easy, and they’ve had their fair share of ups and downs. But they’ve learned so much about themselves and collected new friends and collaborators.

On this episode, Carlos and Laurence are joined by Ben Johnson to talk about how we can invite change and creativity into our lives by being more prepared to end things.

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Carlos:

for those listeners, who haven't come across you, Ben, um, maybe just I.

Carlos:

A little intro, um, to yourself, uh, and your, the work you do,

Ben:

Yeah.

Ben:

Well, thank you.

Ben:

So for sure some of the work that I do is around coaching and working with other people who, like myself, have kind of spent a long time on a entrepreneurial journey.

Ben:

Like my work, my work for money work, uh, has traditionally always been kind of running businesses.

Ben:

And so I've run a few businesses over the last, now kind of nearly 30 years and so lot work that I do, the kind of work for money work is working with people who are on a similar journey to that.

Ben:

But really I think what I'm kind of also interested in is how sort of time is not just spent in work for money and how my sort of time is divided up over the course of a day so there there is other time, 'cause I'm kind of very interested in sort of teaching.

Ben:

I'm interested in talking, I'm interested in experimenting with podcasts, uh, both with you and other podcasts too.

Ben:

And so kind of just, and also the kind of process of learning.

Ben:

I think a lot of the, how I like to spend my time is learning and then try to package up that learning and then offer it to other people, um, via all different means.

Ben:

Like I said might be coaching, might be talking, might be standing in a field, wherever it may be.

Ben:

So, uh, the, that, the, what I do is a little bit dependent on who is asking and when they're asking.

Carlos:

I love the fluid nature of your, your being in business.

Carlos:

Awesome.

Carlos:

Thank you Ben.

Carlos:

so this, uh, this conversation has been inspired by your talk at summer camp.

Carlos:

It's also for us, uh, an opportunity just to give people a window into what happens at summer camp.

Carlos:

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos:

I think a bit, talking a bit to what you were saying there is kind of hard to just like nail down sort of the what it is that some that you do.

Carlos:

And sometimes it's hard for us to nail down what it is that summer camp does for people.

Carlos:

I think one element of it, I think I like what you captured is to share learnings not from the perspective of, uh, a kind of pag pedagogical approach.

Carlos:

Right.

Carlos:

Lessons do this A, B, and C, but more from a kind of a story based approach.

Carlos:

Experiences, so that these are lessons that connect, not just educate.

Carlos:

and so this idea that we're all on the journey of.

Carlos:

Change.

Carlos:

Like, we like to talk about this on our, our Vision 2020 program.

Carlos:

But through that process, these are things that, there are, there are lessons people can teach us, but there's experiences that we just have to go through ourselves.

Carlos:

Uh, we, we just won't know what it means for us and how to tackle it.

Carlos:

So, the, I think the common thread for people to, to understand here, there's a common thread between all of us.

Carlos:

We all, we all run agencies and we've all experienced what that has meant for us in terms of our energy and, and our needs.

Carlos:

Um, and we've, we can empathize with the struggle that can have, and we've had a need to get out of that space for whatever reason.

Carlos:

and so we were gonna talk to this idea of ending things and starting new things.

Carlos:

I think leaning on that experience.

Carlos:

but I think to begin with, maybe to start and just to however you want to summarize some of the topics that you had in your talk to give people.

Carlos:

Catch people up so that they know where some of these ideas came from for you.

Carlos:

We can then move forward and just share some of our stories around this.

Ben:

Yeah.

Ben:

Uh, and I guess in a way, some of the context for the talk was, um, kind of going, so I think what it was that, so that was in September.

Ben:

Uh, I think actually kind of going back actually some months before that in March time.

Ben:

But then sort of you'd sort of started ideas, um, Ideas.

Ben:

Ideas Cafe.

Ben:

Ideas Cafe.

Ben:

Say say I Ideas Factory.

Ben:

But, uh, we were, we, uh, I sort of joined you at one of those and we were talking about the sort of money pricing stuff and uh, as part of that was then sort of standing up in front of an audience and I, I kind of remembered after that.

Ben:

So that was the first time I stood in front of any audience, of course, for like more than two years.

Ben:

Uh, because there was that sort of small matter of covid, which came along over the last couple of years.

Ben:

And so there was, you know, we were not sort of standing in groups, um, in a sort of, you know, together in real life.

Ben:

And uh, just even given that kind of little talk, I kind of, sort of reminded me that actually I do enjoy that sort of in some ways I also find it quite very nerve wracking.

Ben:

A bit of a, a kind of double-edged sword there, but quite enjoy standing in front of an audience, standing wi being amongst the group essentially.

Ben:

Uh, and, uh, I was kinda reminded that actually the last time I had done that was in January, 2020, so just before the kind of world came to, uh, kind of, you know, pause for a couple of years.

Ben:

Uh, and I was giving a talk, um, to a group of students in Dublin, uh, on this kind of idea, on the importance of ending things, uh, as a sort of, as a stimulus, as a creative stimulus to creating new things and, um.

Ben:

So given that talk a couple years before and then uh, sort of short while before we were all sort of together in that, uh, room in March where we were, we were doing Ideas Cafe.

Ben:

It was actually, and I dunno if she's on the call now, but I've mentioned to her where some kind, I remember, uh, Marianne, who's part of your community on and reading on one of the kind of WhatsApp, on one of the channels.

Ben:

I, Marianne was talking about wanting to make this kind of change in her work and she had decided that she needed to really end all of the other kind of work that she'd been doing in order to kind of create the space for, for this kind of new work to kind of flourish for this new work to develop.

Ben:

so I, in reading that from kind of Marianne, remember remembering, reminding myself of the talk that I'd also given, which was part of my own journey, about how to kind of, uh, how to kind of go through this, this period of change and the importance, the need to kind of end things in order to kind of create the stimulus in order to create the space or something new.

Ben:

I think actually it kind of felt to me like this would be a kind of a version of the talk that I've given in Dublin would be very kind of helpful to people, you know, who would be, you know, at summer camp, those people in that community or people like all of us who are sort of striving to do something more, are kind of inclined to do something or trying to kind of birth something new in some form.

Ben:

And I kind of really sort of, you know, what Marianne saying, kind of calling the out saying that she was trying to end, you know, kind of really draw a line to this one whole sort of stream of her work to create the space for something new, kind of really t with my own experience and also, so I think it was kind of all, all, all of that

Ben:

kind of bubbling up the kind of post covid world coming out of that, remembering that kind of my own sort of talks that I've been giving around the importance of ending to create a new people then kind of mentioning it in and around the community kind of felt like, uh, a, a kind of topic which I wanted to kind of revisit and explore some more.

Ben:

When I was running my last company, I knew in my heart actually that I didn't want to be doing that for a long time, a long, long, long ago, many, many years.

Ben:

In fact, India for when I, there was a point at which we had been, I'd been running it for, at that point, probably like seven years or so, a good number of years.

Ben:

And we had just won a project, uh, which was kind of equal in sort of value in kind of financial terms, the same size as our previous five years turnover.

Ben:

So we'd just won this absolutely, kind of huge project.

Ben:

And actually, I, I remember just after we won and, um, starting the process of kind of doing the planning for actually how we were gonna deliver this thing.

Ben:

I remember kind of hearing, feeling, knowing a voice, then saying, actually your work here is done.

Ben:

Because a lot of what had motivated me up to that point, you know, was I was, you know, very competitive.

Ben:

I was motivated by kind of the company succeeding, the company doing well, and a lot of the kind of measures that that came with that, that had been a big part of the kind of motivation and that motivation, you know, in time of course gets very kind of grinding.

Ben:

It can get very tiring.

Ben:

And at that point at which we won that, there was definitely a voice, which I definitely noted, but really chose to ignore, which said, actually I think your work here is done.

Ben:

Now.

Ben:

It was really a fully 10 years before I actually then left the company.

Ben:

From that point on, I, I sort of knew that my work was done, but I was very reluctant to engage with that idea and I think I was very reluctant to engage with that idea for kind of many reasons.

Ben:

You know, someone which kind of, you know, the obvious ones, which are, you know, I'd spent all the time building that company, so I really identified with being the managing director of that company, I really identified with the, the kind of measures of success that came with that company.

Ben:

I really identified with the security, financial security that came with that company and all of the sort of trappings of those things that came because by many sort of measures we were running a successful company.

Ben:

So the kind of identifying with that, the need for that, the kind of feeling of safety and security and story that was kind of really wrapped up in that, meant it was quite hard to kind of, to, to be able to kind of let go of that.

Ben:

It was hard to kind of create a space for it.

Ben:

And I think one of the other things was that it was hard also to, to really, to really know what was on the other side.

Ben:

If I was not identified around those things, if they were not, how I sort of defined who I was and what I did, then kind of in a way, who was I and what do I do?

Ben:

And the kind of not knowing those things is actually a really destabilizing thing.

Ben:

So it's really hard, I think from my own, obviously I only answer from my own experience.

Ben:

Why is it so hard?

Ben:

It was so hard for me because I really identified with everything that was, that was that that kind of represented.

Ben:

And, and then coming to the question about why it was necessary?

Ben:

In a sense, you know, that point around, well, if I'm not identified with that, if I'm not defining myself by that, then what am I identifying with?

Ben:

What am I defined by?

Ben:

And in a way, I also couldn't ever actually get close to answering those questions while I was still wearing the old clothes, if you like.

Ben:

Uh, and so for me it was needing to go through this sort of, you know, through this kind of transition, through this sort of change point where in a sense the clothes were taken off me.

Ben:

Um, so that I would have no choice but to kind of grow into or understand what, you know, what what was on the other side of.

Carlos:

Thank you very much for that image, Ben.

Carlos:

Like, oh, well, the thing that struck me when you first started talking is like you said, seven years.

Carlos:

It's like, oh, I knew after seven years my job had been done and I, I, well, I started thinking, actually, we, we officially started our agency in 2008, and we officially closed it more or less in 2015.

Ben:

Right, yeah.

Laurence:

Yeah.

Laurence:

No, I, I believe that there's a seven year itch.

Laurence:

I've thought this for years.

Laurence:

Well, seven year cycles.

Ben:

Mm-Hmm.

Laurence:

Whether you close, but there's renewal.

Laurence:

I just meet so many people, founders who get to a point after, around that time

Carlos:

So that, that was a curious thing.

Carlos:

and then this point of like, I, I've achieved, or I've done what I needed to do, or there's like a, this goal aspect to it.

Carlos:

It's like, okay, I sat here, I came here to do this, that's done.

Carlos:

Okay, what next kind of thing.

Laurence:

Yeah, I mean the interesting thing is like with us there, it wasn't like we decided to end something to start to create space, to start something new.

Laurence:

It was only when, like when you talk to like an identity or a direction that I felt was much clearer so that it became more of a pull than a push.

Laurence:

So I don't think I would've ever got to a point with the agency where I was happy to end it without a clear idea of what we were moving towards.

Laurence:

And that belief got stronger the my body, you know, my kind of like you said, talking about your heart, your gut, that became stronger.

Laurence:

But there was a gut instinct at the start when we first started talking about the Happy Startup School, or even before that, I think me and Carlos talking about creating a new arm to the Spook Studio.

Laurence:

So it was gonna be like a spook school, it was gonna be a training arm.

Laurence:

It was, there was a need.

Laurence:

I think we both had to, to learn more, to have more inspiration to inspire others as well.

Laurence:

So there was definitely evolving needs, I think that's probably where that came from was, like you said, maybe the, the spark at the start of something had changed into just delivery had changed into a different type of work, which I got to the point where I just wasn't feeling as creative anymore, and my creativity was getting constrained by the projects we were working on.

Laurence:

You know, there was loads of creativity at the beginning.

Laurence:

We were working with clients, helping 'em release their ideas, but then over time it was just about just, uh, fixing things and, you know, tweaking things rather than making big shifts in, in the products we were creating.

Laurence:

So, yeah, I personally definitely had a need to just keep new energy coming into the business.

Laurence:

And that actually eventually evolved into Happy Startup School.

Laurence:

But I think even without that, I think we both felt like, oh, we're at this crossroads really of do we grow our agency and become those guys and grow the team and get bigger office and bigger clients and, and take that route, or do we take a sideways turn and try something different?

Laurence:

Whether that ends up becoming our main thing or whether it's just a fun side hustle that just keeps us interested and the money's over here?

Laurence:

And so.

Laurence:

That's the bit I remember was this, luckily both of us being interested in the same things and having the same sorts of questions, I think in terms of the books we were reading and the kinds of companies or organizations that inspired us, I remember having those conversations together around that time.

Laurence:

But yeah, at the start, I don't think there was any question of closing the agency.

Laurence:

'cause the thing for me was really about how that impacts other people.

Laurence:

Not just the team, but our clients, our families.

Laurence:

We had young kids at the time, so there was a lot of other stakeholders involved in any decision we made, which I think is a big reason why anyone is scared of making changes.

Laurence:

It's easy when it's just you, but it's a lot harder when you have to explain that and tell stories about what you're doing and why.

Laurence:

And I, I think storytelling is such a big part of that for me because I've worked with lots of people who they almost need a new story to tell before they can.

Laurence:

Have some ending to the current story that they're living in.

Carlos:

My experience at the agency at the time is, uh, I was very much client facing and to a certain level, firefighting a lot, you know, challenges with products we are building and we're in like the number of mature products and new products at the same time.

Carlos:

And when you're in that space, um, there's not a lot of energy for creativity or thinking about something new when you're in the nearly fight or flight, place.

Carlos:

And I didn't recognize it at the time.

Carlos:

I didn't know that that was the case.

Carlos:

I just didn't know anything better.

Carlos:

Really.

Carlos:

It was, it was a case of just having fallen into a business model and so.

Carlos:

For me, it was important.

Carlos:

While I didn't know at the time what the Happy Startup School was going to be, I did know I couldn't run the agency on my own.

Carlos:

I didn't, I knew that running two organizations or even just putting your mind to two initiatives at the same time were just overwhelming given also the amount of work required just for the agency work.

Carlos:

And so something had to stop in order to be able to focus or even to even dream or consider.

Carlos:

And so a difficult but important part of it or reason was like just to be able to think and act in a new way to be able to do that, I had to so stop doing the old ways.

Carlos:

Which is like, Lorin is saying hard because the old ways were, familiar if still not particularly comfortable.

Carlos:

While the new ways was, uh, uncomfortable, but it felt, I'm gonna say slightly familiar in terms of the feel of it, in terms of actually this feels a bit more like home rather than the other way.

Laurence:

one thing I'd add to that, for me, there was something about commitment as well.

Laurence:

So actively closing the agency and actively committing to this for me was a massive just mindset shift.

Laurence:

Because it was, we're not just playing here.

Laurence:

We're actually, this is real, this is professional.

Laurence:

We we're stepping up and so we'll make it work.

Laurence:

We'll have to make it work.

Laurence:

And so it became much more of a focus, much more, exciting really because it was less, are we doing this?

Laurence:

Are we not doing it?

Laurence:

Are we doing that?

Laurence:

Are we not doing that?

Laurence:

So then that decision suddenly became easier.

Laurence:

Once we made the decision, it was so much easier and much less scary than thinking about making the decision.

Laurence:

If that makes sense.

Laurence:

So it's the fear of making a decision that was more scary, I believe.

Laurence:

Because once you make a decision, you commit, then you just work out what you need to do next.

Laurence:

Mm-Hmm.

Laurence:

And that becomes a set of steps.

Laurence:

And it is also about that story as well.

Laurence:

Like, and explaining why, why we're doing this.

Carlos:

I was just to add onto that whole, the theme of commitment, I don't think I was actually committed to the agency.

Carlos:

I didn't feel that sense of commitment to the agency, which made it possible to stop.

Carlos:

But there could have been a different scenario where I could have continued in that space, even though I wasn't committed to it.

Carlos:

And I think that's the dangerous part to continue something.

Carlos:

Even though you, and that's, that's why I was hearing from you, Ben, about still staying around is like, I'm not sure if I'm actually committed to this, but I'm gonna stay here.

Laurence:

Well, to Joel's point, I like this idea of lost your, in your heart.

Laurence:

You know, you had those feelings that I'm not.

Laurence:

This is maybe not my future, but were you actually ready?

Laurence:

Was was actually 10 years later when you were ready ready.

Ben:

Yeah.

Ben:

And I think for sure in some form that has to be the case, doesn't it?

Ben:

That, uh, you kind of, you are ultimately gonna do it when you are ready.

Ben:

And do all, I like what you're saying around the commitment.

Ben:

I think that that is a huge, you know, the point at which we kind of are ready to actually commit, the point at which we're really ready to step in is when, when things can actually flow.

Ben:

The other thing which is coming to my mind as you were talking is that I remember probably sort of around the sort of time when I was actually leaving, I remember I was working with a meditation teacher and we obviously, like in meditation, there's lots of talk around letting go with ideas of letting go.

Ben:

And I remember talking to my meditation teacher sort of probably around this sort of time of year, and I remember saying to him, oh, next year my, my intention is really to focus on letting go.

Ben:

I remember him sort of saying, well, before you can let go, you need to know what you are holding onto.

Ben:

Uh, and actually the focus is, well, what are you actually holding onto?

Ben:

Rather than this idea of, no, I'm letting go.

Ben:

I'm letting go.

Ben:

I'm letting go.

Ben:

I'm letting go.

Ben:

It's like, no, actually, what are, what are you holding onto?

Ben:

What am I holding onto?

Ben:

What are those stories that I'm holding onto?

Ben:

What are those ideas that I'm holding on to?

Ben:

All that sort of, and actually it's in that which was really where my, I was kind of entangled with my company actually, uh, was in the thing that I was actually just was really kind of over holding onto, I was holding onto too tight.

Ben:

And in a way, I think the thing that feels for me that, you know, partner is so for myself why it was, you know, so hard, kind of the, the ending things is hard is that it does come back to something that is going on in, you know, in, in your mind, in your kind of heart, in your mind.

Ben:

It's like, I'm holding on to something.

Ben:

You know, whether it's by fear, whether it's for security, whatever it might be.

Ben:

And it's that holding on where the kind of entangling happens.

Ben:

And so until I was kind of clear about, clearer, I guess, about the things that I was actually holding onto, which to your point there, Laurence, maybe going all the way back to 2000 kind of eight when I was first I thought I wasn't really clear about the things that I was holding onto.

Ben:

And it was only those years later as I get kind of clearer, more familiar with where the entangling is happening, that actually I can see what I'm holding onto.

Ben:

So then actually the idea of, um, of letting go, the idea of kind of ending is kind of clearer because it was clearer what I was holding onto.

Carlos:

Are you able to describe a bit what those things were for you?

Ben:

Yeah.

Ben:

The things that I was holding onto, I think that I was, I think as sort of, I've kind of alluded to, I think holding onto feelings of security, holding onto stories of success.

Ben:

I think a lot of it also, you're talking there about the importance of sort of story.

Ben:

I think I was holding, you know, for all of my working life up until that point, I had sorted defined myself by being an entrepreneur, by creating companies.

Ben:

And so I think I was really holding onto, you know, a feeling of security, a feeling of accomplishment, a feeling of success that came from being able to say, oh, I'm the managing director of this company and look to successful.

Ben:

So, you know, a lot of the kind of self-worth and safety and identity coming from what I saw as being those kind of external measures.

Ben:

So I was holding onto the familiarity of those things, holding onto the security of those things.

Ben:

It's like, um, for sure those things don't evaporate and those things don't go away.

Ben:

But more often than not, I have a bit of space around, you know, that, that kind of sort of space between the, the kind of somebody asking the question and the kind of feeling of anxiety that would come up around it.

Ben:

And so those things don't go away.

Ben:

I just have some space from the kind of tightness of that feeling.

Carlos:

So you talk, the way I understood there was like a 10 year I'm not gonna call it journal Yeah.

Carlos:

Gap.

Carlos:

When you started, when you realized more or less that your job was done to when you are like, alright, gonna shift, make something happen, do you think there was any way to shorten that time or do you think you needed those 10 years?

Ben:

Yeah, I mean interestingly like we're talking about the seven, it was actually, it was actually another seven years from because, so from when I first had that thought, it was seven years later actually, where I finally said in a sort of absolutely definitive way to my business partner.

Ben:

No, I'm leaving.

Ben:

I'm gonna go.

Ben:

And, uh, the, in the same kind of reference to your, um, the, the kind of commitment thing you were sort of saying before, actually, in saying that, and I will answer your question in a second, but I was just reminded of this as you say.

Ben:

So, um, I basically get to point and I say to you, my business partner, no, I'm done here.

Ben:

I'm not gonna do this.

Ben:

And, uh, it was again, it was sort of actually round about this time of year and I said to him, and I can't remember, I picked a date, right?

Ben:

It was something like June the 30th, the next year.

Ben:

He said, by June the 30th, I'm gonna have left.

Ben:

Uh, and to bear in mind, I sort of ran the, the company.

Ben:

So if I was not there, it was definitely gonna have an impact.

Ben:

I said, by June the 30th, I'm gonna have left.

Ben:

And so either we've worked out by that point, what's gonna happen with the company or I'm gone and we'll just have to deal with whatever that be.

Ben:

So that, that was actually seven years that the committing to that then created a situation, which meant that it rubbled on for another couple of years.

Ben:

Which is a slightly, slightly different point, although there was clear exit by that point.

Ben:

But coming back to your thing around, could it have been made shorter?

Ben:

Could it have been sort of expedited.

Ben:

Kind of in a way?

Ben:

I don't think it could have done in the same way as, I don't think the, the kind of the, the kind of period of, sort of a struggle after I left equally couldn't have been made any shorter too.

Ben:

Um, and I, I think in a way, certainly for me, it felt like these things are kind of running to their own, running at their own speed a little bit.

Ben:

And in a way, I'm just the passenger who's being trundled along as it runs at its own speed.

Ben:

So I, I'm not really sure, you know, like I would've been like you guys, I'm not obvs kind of always reading, lots of speaking to people, working to people, working on myself, working with other coaches or I, all of those things I was kind of doing, you know, practicing all sorts of things and, um, it took the time that it took.

Ben:

So I don't know that actually that, I dunno what I might have done that would've expedited it, or if it just was, that's the amount of time it took for the wheel to spin and I was sort of dragged along on that journey as it went.

Carlos:

Because what springs to mind for me is, um, like what's having a clear idea of an alternative.

Carlos:

and yesterday I was.

Carlos:

I met up with a few people from our community.

Carlos:

We had our Christmas little do on Wednesday.

Carlos:

Unfortunately, you couldn't make it.

Carlos:

Lots of bogan bingo and, um, non PC pro cremations.

Carlos:

but the next day I was talking to Tom Nixon and he had this little kind of procrastination toolkit that he'd created and never shared, which I found fascinating.

Laurence:

What was holding him back from sharing it?

Carlos:

Exactly.

Carlos:

Meta or what?

Carlos:

there was something about that model that sprang to mind or his way of attacking is like, there's this thing that you wanna do, for whatever reason you don't do it.

Carlos:

And what's tied to it is like, there's a fear around it.

Carlos:

And so you've gotta like, face that fear, absorb it or so just like sit with it.

Carlos:

And then through that, what's the next simple step?

Carlos:

And so the way I'm relating it to this is like, I'm not happy here.

Carlos:

I need to do something else, but I.

Carlos:

I don't know what it is.

Carlos:

'cause there's a fear of I have no idea what I'm gonna do next.

Carlos:

And like if I leave suddenly what, what, what happens?

Carlos:

And like, there's this fear about that.

Carlos:

And so when I say like, oh, seven years could have been shorter.

Carlos:

Like if someone had come to you and said, painted a picture of possibility of saying, actually Ben, I really know you well.

Carlos:

I know what you read about.

Carlos:

I know what you like Fascinate.

Carlos:

Could you imagine yourself doing this?

Carlos:

And you'd be doing this, this, you'd be paid for that.

Carlos:

You'd be running this, you'd be traveling there.

Carlos:

And that's what you could be doing If someone had painted that picture for you.

Carlos:

Do you think that could have and shifted this idea of, oh gosh, maybe I can accelerate this process?

Ben:

Um, Well obviously I don't know.

Ben:

But I mean, I think what I'd say is, in a way, can anybody ever paint that picture for you?

Carlos:

Mm-Hmm.

Ben:

Or do you need to paint that picture yourself?

Laurence:

Or could someone have helped you accelerated the process of you coming up with it for yourself maybe is a better way of thinking about it

Carlos:

because I ask that, 'cause I wonder that for myself in the sense of like, I'm thinking of um, Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey and also I'm trying to relate it to some of the work that we do around this kind of, the story of change.

Carlos:

So with the hero's journey, there's a call to adventure.

Carlos:

There's that thing of like, actually you should go off on this direction.

Carlos:

And it's like, oh fuck that.

Carlos:

It's just like, no, or you follow it.

Carlos:

Or what we talk about is the, the inciting incident.

Carlos:

The thing that's like, oh my God, this has happened and I need to do something about it.

Carlos:

There's a, the motivation to change and so on one hand the motivation could be, I'm just uncomfortable where I am, or That place looks amazing over there, I want to go there.

Carlos:

And so there's something around here I was wondering about for someone who's like, need to change, I dunno what that is, how they can create.

Carlos:

And I'm thinking about myself.

Carlos:

So like one of the, you know, the inciting incident in my case was at Laurence.

Carlos:

You know, Laurence, I wanna do this thing.

Carlos:

It's great, you know, I dunno what it is, but it's great.

Carlos:

You know, we'll be good.

Carlos:

Go, go, go.

Carlos:

Like, like, and at the time I had, I didn't have any alternative to say, all right, no, this should be the way, 'cause the, the agency way wasn't, I couldn't sell that even to myself was more Laurence.

Carlos:

So there's something around how this, being open to these calls to a better, these infighting incidents that could help, might even destabilize a bit and make you feel uncomfortable.

Carlos:

But, but also there's an opportunity there to start painting a picture, a possibility.

Laurence:

Well, the other thing that comes to mind is, I'm guess you were meeting lots of other entrepreneurs, but being exposed to people who've maybe one step ahead in terms of making a move like that or painting that picture of possibility, not through your vision, but through seeing what they've done.

Ben:

Yeah, and I think probably part of what happens, like what happen for me and I'm sure happens for lots of people, part of the, the community is that on some level or some level to greater degrees of consciousness, they know they wanna make that change.

Ben:

They start looking for the communities, they start looking to surround themselves with people who are also on that kind of journey somewhat too.

Ben:

And I, and I know there's kind of, you know, there are many sort of models of change, theories of change aren't there, but one of the ones that was coming up as you were talking there is the idea that actually, you know, we, we, we make the change when the cost of remaining the same, exceeds

Ben:

the cost of training and at some point it's like, what are the things that happen to be sort of really sort of stoking that up a little bit?

Ben:

And part of that for sure has to be about, you know, being in a place where you sort of envisaged something new.

Ben:

And the more you are a kind of, I guess, the more you are sort of immersed in and surrounded by people who are on that sort of journey.

Ben:

And you know, there are people further along and there are people closer to where you are in that kind of mix.

Ben:

That's all the stimulus, isn't it?

Ben:

That's all the sort of source material a little bit.

Carlos:

I quite like, that I thinking about the cost of not doing anything, it kind of Connects back to some of the happy pricing stuff that we talk about.

Carlos:

So on one level, I, I feel that we are talking a quite, uh, emotional existential life journey aspect, but I just wanted to also just connect it to a very pragmatic, practical thing about what are you willing to invest in something.

Carlos:

So like if you are gonna spend money on.

Carlos:

A coach or an experience, it's like, what's the cost of not doing it?

Carlos:

And if you can't, if someone can't paint a picture of the value you'll get, or if you can't educate yourself to say, all right, the cost of not doing it is so much more than the cost of doing it, if you can't do that, then you won't make the decision.

Carlos:

You won't take the opportunity.

Carlos:

So I think that's where I'm connecting to this idea of selling, even selling an idea, selling a vision, selling a a, a picture of the future.

Carlos:

While I'm acknowledging what Leah says is she's not sure if someone can accelerate a process of change for us.

Carlos:

While we can't necessarily push people faster than they can go, if that person is so stuck in their heads or so stuck in their worlds that they can't look up, we can't encourage people to look up and to see other alternatives.

Carlos:

And I think about the events that we run, the experiences we run.

Carlos:

The experiences we've been on, you know, going to the Do Lectures for instance, and just, and meeting people who are just doing things differently.

Carlos:

Like I think if we're in this filter bubble of nine to five, five days a week, retirement death, like, okay, that's all that's possible.

Carlos:

So why would I ever think about anything else as opposed to them going to sit in a field or talk to someone who just gives you a whole new vision of actually what people are doing in the world.

Ben:

Actually remind me.

Ben:

That's one of the things I've really enjoyed when, before summer camp reading the material you put with saying to kind of, to uh, the, the information path for speakers.

Ben:

So talking, and you've referenced earlier Carlos, and thing about just actually just make it, about, make it as much about your experience as possible and then people take from it kind of what, what they do.

Ben:

And uh, I was thinking there, there's a good friend of mine and he also has been running his deputy for a long time and he said to me, he said to me probably on three different occasions, d completely different contexts that it's actually good few years apart, that he would, you know, really that he would like to be doing something else.

Ben:

And I've never really sort of pushed it with him in any way.

Ben:

But I think kind of just sort of acknowledging what kind of Leah's saying the conversation we're sort of having there In a way, actually I guess all we can really do or we can most usefully do is be sharing our own sort of stories of what we've done.

Laurence:

Mm-Hmm.

Ben:

And at the point when saying, the friend of mine is really ready to kind of hear that, he will basically look and see, okay, there are people who have kind of, who have gone before, there are people who are doing this of course.

Ben:

And so, but at the point at which he's ready to hear that, and I guess which links in some form and the point at which the cost of remaining same is just too great.

Laurence:

And I think that's an important point because if I think about why you would end something when you haven't got something to go to or even a story of that future, I think of, actually Marianne is a good example.

Laurence:

Uh, Serena, who was on this podcast recently, um, even myself, my first ever and only full-time, uh, job.

Laurence:

The experience was so bad that anything was better.

Laurence:

And so the energy levels draining this feeling of just dreading getting up in the morning.

Laurence:

I'm not saying that was um, the same for them too, but I know they both walked away from what seemed like a great job to create space for nothing.

Laurence:

And that, for me is a big part of this is like you said, when, uh, the cost of doing nothing is actually more painful than closing something or ending something.

Carlos:

One thing I wanted to relate to, or this I, I feel is connected is when myself and Laurence were running the agency for a good while.

Carlos:

We kind of, I felt we just wanted to do it our own way or, you know, we, we weren't looking outwards as much.

Carlos:

We were very looking inwards into our, you know, how can we make this happen?

Carlos:

How can we find the solutions?

Carlos:

As opposed to when you are.

Carlos:

I think this is also part of the early agency of life.

Carlos:

You're like on this treadmill of just trying to get the next client, get next client to do the work, the next client.

Carlos:

Not giving ourselves enough time and space to just explore other places and other ways of looking at how work could work.

Carlos:

Um, and only through that you're talking about the stories and the sharing stories, hearing other people's journeys and hearing that it's possible, and also hearing that it's a struggle as well.

Carlos:

I think is it, it is.

Carlos:

While we can't push people faster than they can go, I think I got, I kind of feel this kind of responsibility to at least share as many stories as possible so that they're out there in the world so that people can say, oh, somehow mistakenly come across it, or someone refers something.

Carlos:

But then I think of, even from a neuroscience perspective, uh, this idea of we perceive what we believe we are looking through the world through our own set of, Filter goggles that are created by the people around us.

Carlos:

So if we live in a, in a, in a group, or with people who only see the world in one way, then we will believe the same things that they believe, and we only see the opportunities that they see as opposed to this call to adventure, this breakout, this thing tonight.

Carlos:

Let's try something different.

Carlos:

Let's have a look in a different way.

Carlos:

And I think many, I, I'm guessing that a lot of people who've been in our community and maybe listening to this, they've had time in their lives where someone said, try this thing.

Carlos:

It's totally left field that you never thought you'd try or see or right.

Carlos:

And it's suddenly, it's just opened your eyes to something different and then you followed that path and it's taken you away from where you could have been going.

Ben:

There was something about hearing that at that point, which resonated in such a way that meant, you know, unlike the sort of tsunami of other sort of books, things you might have kind of, you know, read, listened to, there was something about that message at that point kind of resonated in such way, like, no, that I am doing something.

Ben:

Or it is a kind of pointed bit of, you know, somebody says something which encourages you to actually do something.

Ben:

You know, which of those kind of teachers which do pop up, you know, which I know all comes back a little bit that is often seen within the context of the hero's journey thing that we do.

Ben:

You know, teachers do appear in our lives at points with a pointer that way or instruction to go that way.

Ben:

And of course, I guess they turn up in lots times.

Ben:

Sometimes we hear and see them and sometimes we don't.

Laurence:

We've got a few questions.

Laurence:

I wonder if you wanna look at those?

Carlos:

Sure.

Carlos:

Yeah.

Carlos:

We had, well the, the first one that I posted, maybe we can tackle it briefly.

Carlos:

This is Mary.

Carlos:

I asked Maryanne was gonna join us, uh, and she has basically.

Carlos:

Done this whole thing, stopped everything.

Carlos:

Tried to start a new thing.

Carlos:

Um, and so she asked, how do you manage the gap between destruction and new beginnings?

Carlos:

Because I get it isn't instant when you create the space that new things will take, uh, and that new things will take time to emerge, and maybe the only way to do it is with a financial buffer of several months.

Laurence:

But it also links a bit to Joel's story.

Laurence:

Joel shared a bit in the chat, um, and I met up with him a couple of weeks ago.

Laurence:

He's just left his company after 13 years and Yeah, doesn't have a clear vision of what he's doing next.

Laurence:

So is it in some ways is in that liminal space?

Laurence:

I think he said himself.

Laurence:

He had, he does have a bit of time to explore what that is, but yeah, not everyone obviously has that luxury.

Laurence:

So it's an interesting one, isn't it?

Laurence:

Because I know, so Marianne's, to give some context, is a copywriter, right?

Laurence:

And so she Yeah.

Laurence:

Gets paid to.

Laurence:

Do copywriting, freelance copywriting, but I think for a long time has wanted to try something new and maybe find a bit more of a creative path.

Carlos:

So I think one of, you know, speaking to one of the questions I posed before, like, what stops us from making change?

Carlos:

And so the, and again, we're making a lot of assumptions about what Marianne's situation is, and she isn't here to explain a bit more.

Carlos:

So, uh, take this, um, not as a, um.

Ben:

We can say what we like.

Carlos:

Yeah, exactly.

Carlos:

We're not addressing Marianne's situation in particular, but just talking in general.

Carlos:

And I think the, the generality I was gonna talk about was financial buffer and this, um, how yes, we need to stop things in order to create space and energy and time, but if we create all that space and then it suddenly gets filled in with money worries, what does that mean for our creativity?

Ben:

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's no getting away from the fact we live in a world where money is pretty fucking important, so we sort of need it to be able to wander through it.

Ben:

So you know for sure there has to be, or try trying to create some way where you do have some kind of, um, kind of financial buffer to help you work through it, I think has to kind of help all on the one hand.

Ben:

But equally, I guess the, the change that you guys went on kind of spoke to doing that in a sort of slightly different way.

Ben:

I think, I think for me personally, so I did have a, I did have a, a financial buffer, so I was extremely lucky in that regard.

Ben:

And also I kind of have a confidence around work and money because I, because I'd always created and run my own company.

Ben:

So I knew I had better history of being able to kind of create sort of work for money opportunities.

Ben:

Uh, and so for me the, the kind of transition was kind of harder, sort of less, because I was more fortunate on the money side.

Ben:

I knew I had had a bit of buffer.

Ben:

It was all on the, the, the kind of the trouble and the trauma was all on the kind of emotional side really was the kind of shifting identity, all of those sorts of things.

Ben:

That's where I kind of really got sort of wrapped up and that then does stop bleeding into the kind of money thing a little bit too.

Ben:

Uh, but yeah, I think, I think for me, you know, I did, I was fortunate I had the buffer and I think I needed the buffer to be able to kind of go naked.

Ben:

To go back to what we were talking about at the beginning.

Laurence:

Yeah, I mean, I, in an ideal world, you would have six months, a year buffer.

Laurence:

That would be amazing.

Laurence:

Uh, but not everyone has that luxury.

Laurence:

So, the interesting thing about that is, you know, I know lots of people and think we've probably got there ourselves, where you have that pot and it starts to dwindle, and then it's only when it gets to crunch point.

Ben:

Right.

Laurence:

After, after however long that is.

Laurence:

One year, six months or two years, you, you know, you have an element of play because you've got the buffer and then suddenly it's like, whether it's redundancy money or money you've saved up at some point you really have to stop need, yeah.

Laurence:

Need to make money.

Laurence:

Yeah.

Laurence:

So I always find it interesting, you know, when there's a need actually you end, you have to price more powerfully or think about charging for something that maybe you weren't charging much for, if anything.

Laurence:

But like you said, that also comes with anxiety of like, I have to charge this way, I have to bring in more money.

Laurence:

And so that can create anxiety, it can create lack of creativity, and it can also come across as being desperate because you might talk about it in a way that you really feeling that scarcity.

Laurence:

So personally, I'm a, I'm a fan of like, we did, you know, whether it works for people or not, but just to create some income that might not take you five days a week, but that you can at least bring in something to at least stop the pot dwindling rapidly.

Ben:

Mm-Hmm.

Laurence:

Um, and also just to have that feeling of I'm making money.

Laurence:

I'm not seeing, even if you had a million pounds in the bank and you're losing it, there'll be a feeling of scarcity because that number's getting smaller.

Laurence:

So it's not about an amount of money.

Laurence:

I think it's more a feeling of creating value, creating wealth.

Ben:

Mm-Hmm.

Laurence:

And sometimes it can focus the mind because it might be that people are creating something new, but they've got 20 years of experience behind them in another field, which they can bring to that.

Ben:

Mm-Hmm.

Laurence:

And just because they're putting on a new hat doesn't mean they can't charge from day one.

Laurence:

So in some ways it's trying to get people thinking more creatively about money as well as the thing they're creating.

Ben:

Yeah.

Ben:

And the confidence that comes to what you are saying there, the confidence that comes from, I'm trying a new thing, I'm doing a new thing, and I'm exchanging this in some form for somebody else's is money, you know, that somebody's buying these from me.

Ben:

Even if it's a sort of small thing, then they're kind of, it's, these are kind of points of encouragement, aren't they?

Ben:

They, it's a kind of an invitation to keep going, an invitation to explore a little bit further.

Ben:

And so kind of keep to use that as kind of lead to respond to follow.

Laurence:

And a good example, I met someone weeks ago who's an accredited coach, but she's, she got another job and so she's got security coming from the job, but she wants to become a full-time coach and she's offering sessions at 15 pounds an hour to coach people, even though she's very good at it and got a lot of experience.

Laurence:

And the reason she's doing it is 'cause she can afford to.

Laurence:

But my argument was, well, that sets out a mess, sends out a message that, you know, we pay a cleaner that amount of money.

Laurence:

So it's, it's an interesting thing of when you don't need it, then you devalue your worth in some ways, but then when you do need it, it's really hard to then suddenly jump your prices up by tenfold to start charging what you need.

Carlos:

I wanted to like really just acknowledge that what we're, what one premise is that you won't have the creative space to do these new things unless you stop some of the things that you're doing at the moment.

Carlos:

And it requires a bit of a mindset shift if you're not inclined or you haven't had the experience of getting paid first off that you've created that you're not, basically you're direct to the customer and you're not being paid through employment on VO term.

Carlos:

And then there's some aspects around your relationship to money that we're talking about that also needs to be taken to account.

Carlos:

And so there's, there's deeper work other than just learning how to build a business when it comes to this transition or transition, um, that we we're talking about here.

Carlos:

And it's, it's something that we experience a lot through the people we work with in terms of their experience of this journey.

Carlos:

There's like, we, you know, we talked about you paint a picture of possibility, what could it be like, what would it look like?

Carlos:

Does it look attractive?

Carlos:

Is that what you want?

Carlos:

And then there's actually doing it.

Carlos:

And with us, speaking now from our own perspective, what I remember is that while we didn't have like a specific business model for the whole of the Happy Startup School, we were selling events, we were selling experience.

Carlos:

There was something that we were actually selling at the time.

Carlos:

So there was a potential for money to come in.

Carlos:

We also had an opportunity to sell memberships.

Carlos:

You know, there's this idea that there was income that was coming in and that we were already trying to pull in at the time.

Carlos:

It wasn't easy for me at least, and it felt anxiety inducing 'cause it wasn't never certain.

Carlos:

There's always a level of uncertainty in that.

Carlos:

But then that for me was realizing that's just path of the course.

Carlos:

And it wasn't about, you will ever find a predictable, scalable business model that you can a hundred percent rely on.

Carlos:

There was some inner work around what is it that I'm scared of here and how do I make myself more resilient in that situation?

Carlos:

So just talking to Marianne, yes, I think it's important to have that buffer and to feel that you have the ability to get money for the things that you need in the way you want to do it.

Carlos:

And that's the work.

Carlos:

I think that's part of what I believe all of us are trying to help people with here.

Carlos:

We have a couple of minutes left, so just let's see if we can look at another question here.

Carlos:

What does ending things mean in detail?

Carlos:

Wake up and finish things proactively, or is there a period of time for decision making and you are more likely to plan the end?

Ben:

And I guess in a way, so I sort of, some things in some sort of, uh, areas of, I feel like definitely do things quite sort of intuitively.

Ben:

And actually we we're having this, uh, conversation the other day, uh, cast, we actually talking, we was talking about a friend of mine and sort of running, uh, restaurants and he was in, you know, very kind of difficult place to be running restaurants in this kind of current climate.

Ben:

You know, prices of food going up is incredibly, incredibly difficult.

Ben:

And, uh, you know, he was talking about the, you know, his kind of, his energy reserves, his kind of tank of energy getting more and more depleted.

Ben:

So his ability to kind of turn up creatively, turn up enthusiastically, all of these sorts of things.

Ben:

Uh, and, um, the, the sort of conversation was coming up.

Ben:

That was the, the need for him to, to kind of make a change.

Ben:

And so then actually the point actually may be an invitation to end things in this context is going to be a kind of useful energizer.

Ben:

It is going to be thing is gonna be a thing.

Ben:

Which kind of, um, which kind of, which which kind of replenishes the tank a little bit and is a, is a, sort of, is a spark.

Ben:

And so in that sense I think it's, you know, what does ending things in kind of detail in, in his instance or, and then in mind in a sort of site they've gotta, you know, being really connective what is being, being able to kind of identify, like in his case maybe it's kind of something that they are serving, a particular part of what they're offering.

Ben:

In my case, it was a kind of, it was a whole business.

Ben:

But being able to kind of identify that thing, kind of put it up on a sort of, uh, put it on the table almost and go, right, I'm kind of here.

Ben:

This is the object, this is the service, this is the product, this is the idea that I'm kind of wanting to, wanting to end.

Ben:

Uh, and then kind of making a commitment to head in a different direction.

Ben:

So I think maybe it kind of links back a little bit.

Ben:

You know, can I identify as a lawyer?

Ben:

Might say, can I drop it on my foot?

Ben:

You know, when I'm sort of really clear around that sort of thing.

Ben:

Then sort of going through a process for myself, which is why I think it does come back to a kind of an intuitive thing.

Ben:

What is it about this idea that I'm really holding onto?

Ben:

Going back to the thing I was talking about before.

Ben:

When I'm really kind of clear about the thing that I'm kind of holding onto, then I get a little bit of space from it, which allows me to head in a, in a new direction.

Ben:

So I think that in, in my own sense and in kind of work that I do with other people, it sort of turns up in that way, but it is quite an intuitive thing that does involve kind of recognizing what I'm actually holding onto.

Ben:

Does also then involve starting to kind of plot a path somewhere else.

Ben:

One the other things quickly coming to my mind as we're talking about, I know, um, the Satir process have changed that you guys sort talk about a lot.

Ben:

The, for me and when I did 2020 for example, which was also a big part of my own sort of journey away from, from all of this in a way, you know, what does the kind of ending things in detail mean?

Ben:

Or what does that kind of period, you know, beyond that?

Ben:

What, the thing that I found when I was in the kind of period beyond that was that I needed to be kind of doing things, creating things, making things as part.

Ben:

As part of my journey onto something new.

Ben:

And the thing that I found when I was in more of the kind of real sort of, you know, complex kind of chaos phase, that I was only really able to kind of create sort of small things that would be quite easily digestible, both by me and by other people.

Ben:

And as I got more and more confident and had more space around that process of change, the projects that I was trying to birth for, want of a better phrase, the projects that I was trying to put out, they became a bit bigger.

Ben:

They became a bit kind of larger.

Ben:

And that was also then reflected in the commitment that I was asking other people to make too.

Ben:

So what started like a small little kind of bite-size kind of offering became slightly larger, became a bigger meal, became a kind of feast to kind of extend the kind of metaphor on.

Ben:

And so in that sense, kind of the, the ending was about being really clear.

Ben:

As making as tangible as possible.

Ben:

What is the thing that I wanted to end?

Ben:

Understanding how I was hanging onto that, understanding what I was really sort of attaching to, to get some space from that.

Ben:

Making a commitment to head in a different direction and vocalizing and verbalizing that commitment for others to see and hear as well.

Ben:

And then being very deliberately on a path which was heading in a new direction, which then comes with it, its own sort of process of how to kind of move beyond and how to kind of grow in confidence on what is a new, new route.

Laurence:

For me there's so much of this is storytelling.

Laurence:

I keep coming back to it 'cause I think it's just when we have stories, it makes it easier for us to get our heads around what we're trying to do.

Laurence:

Um, and even if that story's, I'm starting with this small bite-sized thing.

Laurence:

Um.

Laurence:

But it does make me think that it's someone in maybe Marianne's position, just starting small things and, and trying and experimenting and, and seeing what fits, what works, what feels good and maybe what sells.

Laurence:

'Cause um, yeah, I think a lot of people can think of their big vision and then it has to be a big start and that just pushes feedback further away and makes the whole thing feel scarier or it's either success or failure.

Laurence:

It's very binary.

Laurence:

So yeah, trying to hold onto that sense of play, I think is the skill here.

Laurence:

Even if it's, like you said, hard to navigate mentally, emotionally.

Carlos:

Uh, well, um, talk to two things that we do, uh, within our community that maybe of interest to under us.

Carlos:

Um, firstly I was gonna rephrase.

Carlos:

What does ending things mean in detail rather than thinking of ending things, what does changing things mean?

Carlos:

And that's, for me, the core of it is like, it's not just dropping something, it's dropping something for something else.

Carlos:

There's like talking to Ben, we.

Carlos:

What Ben was saying, referring to the story of change that we talk about ,what is currently happening now that isn't pleasant, that you don't like, you know, what, what is the situation that you are in the moment that that isn't working for you?

Carlos:

And then there's what is, and this is the hard bit, I think for a lot of people.

Carlos:

What is the new situation look like?

Laurence:

Mm-Hmm.

Carlos:

What does that have to be?

Carlos:

And so there's being able to plot that out in, in some way, at least as of a fashion to begin with.

Carlos:

So that's step one.

Carlos:

And then the other thing is then to, to surround yourselves with the people who can help you get clear.

Carlos:

Not only clear about what the future could be, but also clear about what you can do in the moment and what might be getting in your way.

Carlos:

What do you need to unlearn as well as learn in order to get to where you want to get to.

Carlos:

And it's that either you, you're not clear about where you want to get to, or you've got too many options about what to do next.

Carlos:

Which is the kind of the situation I think most people find themselves in.

Carlos:

If you can get help with that, with people that you actually trust and value their opinion, and also have enough diverse thought around them, rather than just being kind of a group think perspective, I think if you can get that, then that would be part of this do what does it mean to end things in detail?

Carlos:

Couple of, you know, simple but not necessarily easy steps there.

Carlos:

Okay, thank you very much for listening to us over this time.

Carlos:

Ben, any, any final reflections you want to share with people?

Ben:

Uh, no.

Ben:

Just, uh, thanks.

Ben:

Thanks.

Ben:

You know, actually for me, actually giving the talk at summer camp was a, a sort of important part of the own, the, that journey, my own journey of kind of changing ending.

Ben:

So it was really appreciative of the opportunity to do that, uh, appreciative of the opportunity to kind of share and talk today.

Ben:

So, and nothing to add other than Thank you.

Carlos:

Laurence.

Laurence:

Yeah, likewise.

Laurence:

I think it's always good just to revisit this topic, really.

Laurence:

I think it's, um, yeah, I'm, I'm guilty as anyone of starting things and forgetting to close them or just accruing more stuff and and com and making things more complex than they need to be.

Laurence:

So it's almost like a lifetime skill to be reminded that, yeah, um, we need to create more space in our lives, really, I think this is a, such an important topic for that reason.

Carlos:

Yeah, I think that I'm gonna hook onto that is the, the habitual busyness that I find myself falling into and this need to occupy myself.

Carlos:

So, another aspect then I think for Andreas, well, the, that's coming up.

Carlos:

When sort, you know, how, what does it mean to make change was the details of that.

Carlos:

I think just doing nothing now and again.

Carlos:

And, and really for me, not on just doing nothing, thinking nothing.

Ben:

Good luck with that.

Laurence:

Well, I was about to say, yeah, think Dai Lama still struggles.

Carlos:

Yeah.

Carlos:

Well that's the, I was trying it this morning actually, and what, what I meant was by thinking nothing like, I'm gonna just slice this bread.

Carlos:

I'm not gonna be thinking about what the call is this morning.

Carlos:

I'm not gonna be thinking about what did I, why did I forget to put the dishwasher on last night?

Carlos:

I'm just gonna slice the bread.

Laurence:

But you were doing something,

Carlos:

I was doing something, but I hopefully wasn't thinking about too many

Laurence:

things.

Laurence:

Okay, I'm gonna go and s slice some bread now.

Carlos:

Alright.

Carlos:

Enjoy bread slicing wherever you are.

Carlos:

Uh, thank you very much and we'll.

Laurence:

Thanks everyone.

Ben:

Thank you.

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